BPDFamily.com

Hi all,

It's been at least 4 years however I'm preparing to go back at court myself.  The last time I was here I left (these forums) pretty abruptly as I found myself having to step back from it all as it was driving me crazy with the whole process.  Court and all the drama was consuming my life and it was getting unhealthy for me individually.  

Long story short, been separated 5 and a half years now, exBPDgf (diagnosed but prior to court, court psych said wasn't apparent or recognisable in her "parenting behaviours" only in her inability to co-parent".  Had a semi decent, workable custody agreement in place for about 3 and a half years now however her behaviour has escalated with our S6 starting school and her latest BF in the picture.  For the most part S6 is awesome with me, I focus on my time and ignore her, co-parenting isn't an option its straight parallel that works for my own sanity as I get triggered myself by her behavioural patterns trying to negotiate anything however some things have escalated enough that I feel it warrants me revisiting the court process.  

I was planning long term on going back when he was turning 7 years old to court to get more time however I have to move my own schedule up due to the current situation.  

I remember Turkish from last time along with LnL and a few other names however there was one particular person whom wrote up a summary of everything he had included in his custody agreement.  Often wrote in depth about that specific issue.  For the life of me I cant remember the user name otherwise I might have PM'ed.  I've spent a little looking through the history and different threads but for the life of me I cant find it and I also know how unrealistic it is to find something from 4ish years ago.  From memory he had two sons? and was a teacher himself.  It is kinds of embarrassing me asking this with such vague details I know.  

I've got 5 odd years of documentation for court so I'm organised in that respect, just collating it again over the next week before I have an appointment with the L so its more relevant with the recent activities and organised for him however I remember this guide or list like the holly bible for custody agreements on the forums and if anyone is able to re-post or direct if they know what im talking about it would be greatly appreciated.  It used to be stickied a few times and was posted to people askign this very question but that was 4ish years ago now. 

Thanks in advance and ill stick around for a bit longer this time, I myself am alot better being so removed from it all nowdays. 


AJJ. 

Hi Aussie JJ,

Welcome back, and sorry for what brings you here 


This sounds like david  :)

Are you referring to a list of all the things to consider in a watertight parenting agreement?

Hi LnL,


Yes, in a nutshell I've learnt that the more prepared and more precise I am with everything the more I can go, "this is the court agreement.  Please stick to it."  I made my last one basically from the list the L had and from the posts that David made with notes I took from all of them if it is David.  I honestly cant remember whom it was :S.  

The more I can include, the more detailed, precise and specific... .the better off I am with avoiding conflict as I can point to it and go, It says blah.  So I'll do blah, please go by the agreement and lets do blah.  I want to include as many things as I can when I go in so I've got lots to give up and keep the things I care about, that's my game plan and the L said to make sure the details or all the things im after was a massive list so he can give up lots of things that are insignificant to get the big things.  Basically include them as the first things in the list so that they are the first read as my last experience with court taught me that Judges like to read the first line or a summary only and go from that.  They wont go through everything you have included just whats in front of them initially as the main point.  

Personally I've learnt to accommodate when and where I can if she requests something as it isn't often, however with bigger issues on the horizon I don't want to have the back and forth, I prefer splitting responsibilities up and informing the other party that's what I got originally from court and its mostly worked.  IE: I have dental/optical she has medical etc etc and I like it apart from the fact that she hasn't sent me a single bit of paperwork, but again, I've documented that.  I've learnt to accommodate most things she requests, my preference is say yes as often as I can if it benefits S6 and doesn't affect him or me adversely I don't care I shouldn't block stuff she wants to do.  :)oesn't mean I ever get a yes, but I've documented that, 3 and a half years not a single yes from her to any of my requests  .  

I still prefer not having to deal with her on anything as its always a way for her to triangulate and create conflict.  Having any and everything specified in the documentation to me avoids conflict and avoids the opportunity for more drama than is already present.  

The major one at the moment is around school, she has been talking about private schools etc and neither of us have the financial ability to afford it.  I didnt get the original agreement how I wanted it written and also the local private school is further away from our house again and I feel as I literally just moved next to his school that she will be putting that forward so she can move him away from me to the next school over.  She has also cut back her work and inserted herself in as a volunteer in school twice a week.  This has been done in a way by her where on the days I have him I don't get homework or any of his school work to do with him as surprise surprise its taken out of his bag by her.  Other issues have arisen with him asking me why I "hit mummy" and him telling me I'm not allowed to hit him or touch him etc etc that have to be addressed.  I can see it starting to escalate and while I've mostly been managing it and his fine after a little bit of time with me and gets back to his usually self after 30-45 minutes away from her im worried about the school side of things more than anything.  S6 sometimes when his tired or having a honest moment asks me why mummy lies about me and I've got to manage that as well :S.  I know S6 knows its lies but its repeated so often around him or to other people in his presence that he picks it all up and has learnt not to defend me when she does this as it gets him in trouble.  

Main one is the school issue at present.  I waited till she picked the school for S6 to go to before moving right on top of it and financially cant afford another move.  Taxes etc associated with it make it an un-viable option for me.  

One issue I have is the school principle is understanding however her primary focus is the classroom (rightly so) but the individual teacher is a bit of a fruit loop from what I've seen.  Very naive in her approach and doesn't get that when S6 is at school she is in charge of him, when his mother is at school she is under the teachers supervision, she can tell her no don't do that, S6 needs to take his homework home to his father etc etc.  She has sort of taken sides in it no matter how polite I've been around the issue and doesnt listen well at all to my POV falls back on the its a parenting issue line.  

AJJ.  

Did it look like this? (this is just a snippet)

Communication
Times when we can communicate directly:
• Significant medical or dental issues, medications or referrals to specialists.
• Significant issues with the child’s behaviour or discipline, such as police involvement with the child or the disappearance of the child.
• New and significant school issues, such as referral to special programming, truancy or suspensions.
• Minor adjustments in plans, excepting when the adjustment becomes a point of contention between parents.

Frequency of communication:

Does the parenting plan need to specify that parents are to communicate directly only in emergency situations?
• Are parents able to communicate directly about more than the critical information outlined above without the involvement of a third party?  
• Can parents work towards scheduling a regular time for communication, such as once a month or once weekly?
• How should a parent respond if the other parent is communicating too often, such as daily or many times during a single day?

Communication methods
• How do parents plan to exchange information? In person? By phone, letter or e-mail?  
• Is e-mail the preferred method of communication, given that it allows for a written record that shows the time of the message and the identity of the sender?
• Is voice mail, text messaging, and caller ID  acceptable if agreed to by both parents?
• Do parents need to consider having communications copied to neutral parties on each side to reduce the negativity in them?
• If the use of e-mail is the established mode of preferred communication, when will a telephone call be acceptable?
• Is face-to-face discussion between parents acceptable, or can parents eliminate this possibility if they establish transfer protocols that do not permit any physical proximity between them, except perhaps in situations that involve very young children?  
• If face-to-face communication is planned, what steps can parents take to ensure the child witnesses only civil and matter-of-fact communication between parents, rather that spiteful and negative exchanges that impact the child negatively?

Time frames for responding: 24 hours? 48 hours?

That wasn't it but its all helpful. 

It wasn't a list that was like that it was specifically written up by the member (dot points) with a few examples as well. 

Ill likely go through loads of forum posts and put 3-4 hours in to track down everything I can for this and all ideas I can get.  The list I have at the moment is rather extensive however I remember the one posted from years ago specifically due to the amount of details it had. 

As with everything it all adds up and all helps.  I've got most of the weekend put aside for going through this and have taken Tuesday and Wednesday off work to make sure im properly organised by Lunch time Wednesday and don't use up the L's time without having all my paperwork ready for him. 

Another resource I found helpful (after the fact) is this:

https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/0b353a9a-b6ce-40f2-b909-25f7e857b84c/resource/d137aa79-b06f-448e-94d5-b41dad8fcc00/download/high-conflict-pas-manual.pdf

It's materials designed for the Canadian system but a lot of it can be applied outside of that court system.

I don't know if you can claim she is purposely moving now that you moved close to son and his school.  If you can find a way to do that (or document her admitting that's why she wants to move again) then that ought to help you next time you're at court.

Well, at least limit the order to not having you pay extra for her choice of schools, such as public inexpensive versus private expensive.

This was in the list I initially asked for ForeverDad.  Ended up settling on split costs for school without the public school clause.  I wasnt in a position to keep arguing over all the small details that I had mapped out originally had to focus specifically on the bigger issues and this one was 3 years off at the time. 

Towards the end of it all I was out of finances and it took me 12 months to pay the lawyer back.  He pulled me aside before the last day and said that the better option for me at the time was to fight advocate for what mattered most initially and get financial again if the other stuff popped back up in the future.  He would do whatever I wanted but advised me well in this instance.  If I had kept fighting, I would have been in alot more financial trouble at that time and it was hard enough getting it all paid off. 

My lawyer was always looking for solutions and I was lucky to get a good L at the time he highlighted (rightly so as well) the current cost overruns that were due to her actions and inaction's as well as how hard it would be to realistically repay it all.  He re-oriented me on the important things at that specific point in time. 

Its only now that I have literally moved on top of the school that S6 is talking about this.  She isn't saying anything to me specifically, but from one of his school friends she has spoken about it with other parents.  So time to pre-empt it and raise some other issues as well as ask for more time in general.  My L actually e-mailed me the whole old list form the last day of court with his notes (handwritten on the day and so hard to read :S) from last time so I have all her arguments or reasoning so I can cancel it out when putting it all together now. 

I just want to make it even longer than last time more specific and more to give up and walk away from to focus on the important stuff.  I found that often goign through it the more I got other peoples point of views the more problems I could pre-empt.  I cant highlight how helpful the advise and reading I did on this forum was last time when I was preparing for court. 

I am the teacher with two sons. Our custody order was pretty much written by me. It addressed every issue I was having with ex and what I believed would be things in the future. It took me a few weeks to write the main one. I wrote all the issues I was having and then wrote a solution. I put it down, thought about it, and came back and looked it over. Modified things several times.

I was an EOW and one dinner night in the beginning. We also had a coparent coordinator back then. That order was written by the judge and was very vague. There were a few things I had written that were included. I wrote a very detailed and specific right of first refusal. That led to lots of disagreement, chaos, etc. It left little wiggle room. If either parent was unable to take care of the kids an email had to be sent offering the time. Once the other parent agreed it could not be changed unless both parents agreed in another email. EX always tried to offer then change things last minute.The coordinator actually made a comment about that part because it was so specific.
The coparent coordinator was supposed to resolve any issues. If either parent had an issue they had to email the coordinator and the other parent. The other parent had to respond within 48 hours. The coordinator made a ruling based on those emails. The coordinator was an attorney and basically tried to make decisions that didn't favor one person or the other. The rulings were considered legally binding. You could take them to court but the way things worked the judge would basically go along with whatever the coordinator said. EX argued about the ROFR until the coordinator removed it. The state Supreme Court later decided that only judges can change a court order and the entire system was closed down. That meant all the original parts were reinstated.
The biggest issue I had after that, besides not seeing them that much, was the boys and their school work. EX did absolutely nothing to help them and actually insisted our youngest had a learning disability. She convinced the school to give him an IEP even though the tests did not indicate it. It took two years but I finally got back in court.
By then I had written a solid custody order. I spelled out every holiday in detail. If a holiday had an odd number of days the extra day was rotated year to year. Every school holiday, birthday, summer holiday was spelled out with no wiggle room.
Pick up was to be done with the one parent remaining in their house, The other called and hung up as soon as the voicemail kicked on, the children were to come out within 5 minutes from that call. I followed that. Ex did not. I let it go because I didn't see the point of going to court because ex was rarely on time for her pick ups and rarely had the boys ready for pick up. Many times they were still sleeping when I arrived at 9 am during the summer. Ex showed up once at around 3 pm for a 9 am pick up.
I also included a part that allowed either parent to initiate a change through email. Both parties had to agree in an email and once an agreement was reached it could not be changed without another email agreement. I always say that this change is for the one instant we are discussing and not to be considered a permanent change in the court order.
Ex tries changing things from time to time. I simply quote the order. EX has tried not letting the boys out when I arrive. I guess she is hoping I simply drive away. I wait for 15 minutes, call again, and then call the police. I ask for a wellness check and the boys come out then. They both have cell phones now so I simply call them.
As they got older I am able to deal with them directly more and this eliminates dealing with ex at all. Holidays are still an issue with ex even though it is spelled out. I believe this is one of the few instances I can't resolve easily and it is her way of engaging. Ex has threatened taking me back to court over it but never has because I think she realizes I am following the order and she can't "win". That is also why I believe it is simply to engage especially since it is a holiday and she triggers easily over such things.

Everything I wrote I am also bound to follow. I believe the judge looked at it and saw that so he went along with it. The particulars address the problems I had and how I thought they could be resolved. I also addressed the things I anticipated ex would make issues later. Ex offered no solution to anything. All she did was say I was abusive, blast, blah, blah and say she should make any decisions down the road.
Ideally a judge wants both parents to come to an agreement. The next best thing is one parent makes an offer that is reasonable. The last thing they want to do is decide it on their own. If that happens they default to the usual way of doing things. That leaves much to be desired and will only work if both parents can work together. Otherwise you go back to court many times. $$$$$
It took me a while but I learned to stop defending myself from exs' false allegations and instead find solutions to her allegations.
Ex filed a petition for a protection order. It was the second of three. She claimed she was in fear when I came to pick up our boys at her residence. I was having a problem during the school year because ex would not allow the boys to bring their school bag with them when I came to pick them up. I said nothing about that in court. Instead I asked the judge to make an order that I pick the boys up at their school instead. This eliminated a large portion of times I would be near her residence. The judge loved the idea and asked ex what she thought. She was smart enough to know she had no choice but to agree. I had my attorney write it up in court and have the judge sign off on it. He gave it to ex and she signed, I signed, and then the judge signed it. A few days later I went to school to pick the boys up. I was told that I was not allowed to pick the boys up without the expressed consent from ex. I had a copy of the order. They questioned it because it was handwritten. I told them to fax it to their legal dept. About 15 minutes later I was walking out of the school with our boys.
Each time I was able to do things like that I separated myself more from ex. Ex lashed out in some way but it became harder and harder for her to engage me. Over time I built a big wall between ex and I in order to protect myself and my sanity.
A month ago ex went to her brothers out west. She said nothing to me. I found out a day or two after she left. Our youngest is in 8th grade. He is the only one living with her now. He said nothing to me because he liked the idea of being on his own. I picked him up when I found out and took care of him the entire time. She came back a week and a half later. We only communicate through email and I said nothing to her. I saw nothing positive coming from communicating with her. It used to be said on this site, "negative engagement is still engagement." Trying to discuss this in a reasonable/logical fashion would be like spitting into the wind or trying to pull the mask off the Lone Ranger.

david that's it in a nutshell. 

I'm going back to get rid of anything that was left open to interpretation and also to get rid of any method that exists to engage currently.  Big one immediatelly is getting school locked down.  Seconbd one is getting rid of wiggle room in school holidays.  So far I've given up 1-2 days every school Holidays so that I can avoid conflict, to me avoiding the conflict is a healthier way short term so when I go back I've got more ammunition for a long term solution. 

I got told last time that these things "should" be able to be resolved by "reasonable" people.  I've got a good track record now of me being reasonable and her accusing me of harassment etc for trying to follow the order and in some instances denying access because she was "scared" because I was being aggressive by telling her she was wrong and XYZ was the court order etc. 

I'm in a lot better position now than I was three years ago to ask for things.  I will do what you have said though, I haven't taken that approach of writing down problems and then writing a solution.  So far ive just focused on general areas, that will allow me to be a lot more specific. 

Our order states all communication is through email. Ex used to call and leave messages or send a text. I actually got rid of texting. Eventually I got texting back. Ex found out about it and brought it up in a coparent counseling meeting that was court ordered. I simply said that our court order requires all communication through email and that if I received a text I would delete it without opening it up in order to follow the order. Within an hour after the meeting she sent a text. I deleted it like I said I would.
In the beginning of the order ex used to call from various phones besides her own. I stopped answering my phone if I didn't recognize the number. Anytime she called and left a message I would save the number. I had 4 or 5 numbers that she called from during that time in my phonebook in case I needed it for court. I never replied to a voicemail or text. I did worry about it because of a possible emergency with either boy so I did listen to voicemails. However, that was 2007 - 2010 when they were younger and I never had an issue.