BPDFamily.com

Well for better or worse the text is sent. Couldn't do the jokey-nothing-ever-happened-thing, referenced a walk we took in the park basically:

Well actually 8 Weeks today.  30 days since her reply to the 'nice note' as she called it.

No reply to text yet (1 hour?) but that is not so surprising, I guess even if she WANTED to she would not just punch out a reply which would make her seem desperate.  I would not. Now I guess patience. Let this sit and germinate. Either she has moved on and deleted this or it will resonate with her, make her think, and reply in her own good time. I've done what I can.

Wowwwww.

Got a reply, 90 minutes

"Hi thank you and I hope you are well too such a nice day talk to you later?"

Thoughts. Besides the elephant that just stepped off my chest?

It is the 'talk to you later?' part that really blows me away. Because the first part was friendly and nice but the second especially with the ? seems to be a wide open door? Am I just looking for things here?

I have not replied as I think my reply is pretty critical.  I was thinking of "Yes I love you too I always have and you are forgiven for everything baby!" but that was the old me

Skip: Is there anything to my starting a thread in the Bettering Section about my reaching out and seeing where that goes?

Ok here is my actual thought for reply "Anytime you want" Or does that put the ball in her court? Being of active mind I realize I have not heard her so happy in a long time so I wonder: is it from hearing me or is she happy in love?

I guess I can be either proactive "yes how about datetime" but I find that these sit best with me:

"I would like that"

or

"Looking forward to it :) "

"Yes. Soon."

 Be cool, confident.

I would open a thread on Bettering on how change the dynamics of your relationship - going back with the same "gameface" will likely end in the same place.

Nothing changes without changes.

I got this too late, send my 'that would be nice'. oh well. if that breaks it it wasn't meant to be. I do like yours though man.

I did open a thread and covered how my first foray here was a lot of support for how bad I was treated and such and it wasn't until I took the time (with the help of a nameless moderator) to take a look at how the scenario looked to her I made any progress.

It will be a tough balance now if we meet; Cool, confident, and understanding vs hand-wringing apologetic.

I do really think her reply was interesting. It was very quick, very happy and it wasnt "talk soon" or "talk to you later" but "talk to you later?" which to me is an entirely different statement. Instead of 'I'lll get in touch some time or not' it seemed like 'is our dialog open?'

Anyway again my hope is not happy cause in love and couldnt care less I replied cause it doesnt trigger her vs happy I reached out, reached out immediatly and wants to talk. I'll keep an open mind and heart. at the very very least if I can find a way we both move on w/o rancor and even remain friends that would be a step-up from how we left it.

Funny, since I had not texted in months and this is the first I received it picks up right from the day she wanted to meet after her therapist to 'discuss a few things before friday' (which turned out to be getting me to confirm I really WAS asking). Anyway the nice part which triggers what i remembered was so nice was I texted 'let's meet at Cafe X, you know 'Our Place'' and she texted 'I love the sound of that'.  That is 9 weeks ago man.

You are reading way too much into an equal response to your initial text to be honest .The best thing to do now (in my opinion) is let things sit and see if she comes to you in awhile... .could take days or weeks but going too strong will push her further away that’s my two cents .

I get you. I am on the fence on that though. I did say 'that would be nice' so now I can either, as you say, sit on it, or reach out for a meet.

I do however think the 'talk to you later?' is either conscious or subconscious desire/offer to open dialog as an equal dialog would have been "i thank you and I hope you are well too such a nice day". Which I'd not have replied to at all and 100% sat on. Even 'talk to you later'. I know her pretty well and the ? at the end is what it seems like; a question. The question for me though is do I leave 'that would be nice' as an 'ok then reach out when you are ready' or reach out.

Here's the thing on the larger story; my guess is she was highly doubtful of the sincerity or at least motivation of my finally 'coming around'. I think I confirmed that for here with my 'thanks for opening my heart I'm going to go date' (repeated for all intents and purposes in my goodbye/love letter to her) again so for all she knows that is why I've been incommunicado. In other words waiting for her to reach out might be just replaying the whole dynamic that hurt us; she moves to me, I sit and wait.

I think shawnlam is right. Don't get too far over your skis.  :)

She said she wanted to be courted. Go there. Treat this a new relationship startup. At leat for a while. Trying to dive back to where you were, seal the deal on a relationship, air your differences in not a good restarting point.

Court her like a new women in your life. Read her cues carefully and don't get ahead of yourself.

If this was someone new, you just got the go ahead to take an action. Chose it wisely.

So you are saying to go back to NC now? Leave the 'that would be nice' and make her come to me? Doesn't that seem like exactly where this all started and if I were to reboot I'd want to be the one to reach out?

Well she just reach out. Wants to know if I want to meet at 'our' Wine Bar (where me met). At... .noon? Not last night? The day after I reach out to her after basically two months? Not liking the upcoming conversation very much but will go in with an open mind. My guess: she is getting married or did and wants to let me know before I start anything. But why at the place we met? Man give me the good old days of my normal women it was much much easier.

Is that how you would court someone you were newly interested in?  Of course not!

You've got a date, now.  Show up like a confident, strong man. Be charming ... .listen to her, keep your wounds here (don't bring it up with her no matter what), let her know you are listening, don't solve, listen.

Check out that video on listening with empathy.  Check out the video on "don't invalidate. What do you see there different than what you have been doing.

No, hardly, you just said you agreed with the prior post so wanted to make sure you just meant 'not reading too much' vs 'let her approach you'.

I did in fact read the empathy page, great stuff. I liked how it said everyone things they are more empathetic than they are.  As an aside I think most people think this when they sympathzie with people in similar situations and don't get the difference. However the Empathy Page is really great stuff for anyone who wants to be empathetic and has some great tools to add. I liked about NOT relating it to your own experiences (even though this seems empathetic at first) BUT doing so internally. Really great stuff. I did read invalidating too.

I will not bring up my hurt but should I apologize for the things I've realized hurt her, or not unless she gives me some indication I should (she brings it up etc).

Believe it or not even though it does not come through on this board as I came her spun out of control I do show up confident, strong and charming. Clearly my behavior at the end made her wonder about that as she even said something like 'are you sure you are really an alpha type A man? I'm not sure anymore'. I never ever claimed to be so clearly she was saying 'you started out that way and I've lost confidence in that part of you'. So yeah showing up with (real) empathy and validation skills to get me back to what she fell for is a good idea.

I'm still somewhat concerned about why she is moving so fast to meet and talk after two months of silence from me but I'll shelve that s*** too for now.

Updates: After she reached out the very next day at noon and said 'do you want to meet at (the place we first met) soon?' and I replied, unsure of is she meant e.g. lunch then 'Sure. Do you mean soon like lunch now or soon this week?' (this so I could know whether to head uptown or not). No reply. Today just took bull by horns wrote letter 'reflecting the first nice one 'And another nice day. Does Thursday at 7:30pm work for you'. No reply.

My guess is her mom and sis b****-slapped her for asking ME out the moment I broke NC after two months. Because this is what she did when she met: pursued me. And they kept trying to turn it into me courting her but it was too late. So if she impulsively and happily asked me to meet her at 'our place' and they found out I'm sure they'd say no make him work for it this time.


There is a limit to what I'm willing to do here with this 'narrative' Skip. I'm totally at peace with letting go of any need for her to explain, apologize or otherwise make me feel good/better about what happened, despite her actions being objectively manipulative and hurtful. I got instead the best way to move forward was to understand and acknowledge her hurt and how my behavior contributed to it.

That does not mean I am going to pretend I screwed up our relationship and need to make amends and start from scratch. If going back and 'relitigating' what happened at the end makes no sense, then going way back to the beginning when she liked me and said "I like you you should pursue me" (I did not) and giving her what she wants; a false narrative is not happening either. A large part of our dynamic is precisely that she fell for me, pursued me, and eventually won me over due to her support, personality, connection, affection etc. The part where I messed up was not acknowledging that and especially when I started to reciprocate. So if there is any 'going back' I'm willing to go there. But to re-write this whole thing and treat her like a new girl I met who I'm trying to win over and court while she dates other men and we all compete for her attention is simply not happening. I don't like that dynamic in general, and I think in this case even it were 'successful' would predicate a relationship on an entirely manufactured and false premise AND false power dynamic.

I say all this since it appears, at least from the one day of sudden silence, that she is leaning towards the same 'solution' you are; he messed up let him win me back and court me and I'll play hard to get, play him off other men, and I'll get what I wanted when I met him; him pursuing me until I 'let' him win me. So he gets the grand prize of providing for and protecting me forever.  I'm simply not going there.

I will go to my acknowledging where I let her down and then seeing if we are both willing to pick up where we left off, with her AND I understanding I am fully and equally engaged in a relationship and hopefully a future together.

Let's see if there are replies. I'm guessing she is waiting for her Tuesday therapy session because clearly she replied the first time and with the invite w/o consulting anyone and made the same 'mistake' she did the first time. Me, I don't see it as a mistake, I love that she reached out and wanted to see me, it makes me want her more not less. I do NOT respond well to 'hard to get' never did, I've left more than one woman behind wondering why I never followed through. I am turned on by connection and interest not by 'challenge' and disinterest.

I would tend to agree to a certain extent that playing hard to get has a fine line between playful and the over doing it.But I’m all fairness if you are on this board you know or think she has BPD or at least some strong traits ... .which means your rule book needs some changes .Id also suggest (just my opinion) to let it sit awhile.It goes back to what I said to you before ,kinda let her come to you.Not NC that’s different , your not blocking her or preventing her from contacting you .Its kinda weird to say but she needs to miss you if that makes sense.Also if she has feelings for you she needs to prove them not just say them.If none of the above happens  then it goes back to the point you were trying to make above ,she’s not worth your time is she doesn’t want to invest (BPD or normal woman ) all the same result.
Oddly I was in a similar situation almost exactly like yours except we were together.Lots of let’s meet and the nothing happens,cancellations,she found other things to do.What happened ,well it didn’t work out and we went out separate ways ,problem solved .Sometimes people aren’t capatible ,just because they have BPD doesn’t mean they don’t have taste or preference.But before jumping to that conclusion,my two cents , just sit back and wait now see what happens.Take a week or two do stuff you like to do and let her be,no  point getting mad and the lack of response it will only stress your feelings towards her in a negative wAy.I know it’s frustrating when you like/love someone and it doesn’t come the other way ,but if she really has BPD , get used to it because that’s gonna be your future unless she seeks treatment and even then it’s a tuff battle for her.

Thank you for the feedback. I've actually been starting on your thread,quite a lot to digest but trying to get a handle on it, some similarities for sure. I'm hoping I can contribute some insights I've gleaned in my path her if they can be of any help.

Definitely, though I'd say her immediate super happy reply within an our of my first reach out after two months of NC and her unsolicited follow-up asking ME out to OUR place says it all


I don't think that was ever the problem the summary of our problem lies in the fact that when I started to come around to her level of feeling/commitment I never let her know. I didn't say OR prove them and I'm guessing a lot of our issues are due to that. Not sure how much of the thread you read but after my initial fury/hurt over how she handled things, I did a lot of introspection and realized a lot of her behavior was due to MY not showing my feelings.


Funny thing is I am not mad. Once she replied I think almost the entire 'barb' that has been in my side for weeks just... .disappeared.  And even her (so far one day) non reply is not making me 'mad' I don't think she is playing games. I think she (or her family) is saying 'this is how you got where you were in the first place; you pursued him. He reached out after two MONTHS and you not only replied immediatly you asked him out which is what you did the FIRST time". IMHO the cat is already out of the bag, and they don't know me well enough to know that is not making we want/respect or want to give to her less but more. I like women with good taste  I will definitely sit on it a bit but I'm 99% sure that is where she is at and some pursuit is in order.



She is in deep therapy, not sure if she is diagnosed, she has told me multiple times 'there is a lot you need to know about me.  In any event the real crux of all this is that she was in love and didn't feel it coming the other way; at first because it wasn't and later because I was too closed off to share with her what she was starting to mean to me. It becomes hard to put BPD on her, definitely issue but there was no devaluation and there was no discard. Mostly as I see it two people with some serious issues in their last decade plus came together, ended up really connecting and then all their individual stuff exploded together.  I've learned to not put labels or judgments on her actions, most definitely not to her face or in emails. When she does (if she does) finally tell me 'her stuff' I'll listen w/o judgment and I'll listen closely. But I'm learning I do much better with this, with her and with me when I don't label/judge her behavior and try to keep an eye on mine.

Update Redux:

Well I am back to my first gut reaction to the happiness in her text in her first reply (and to my gut to her quick request to meet which seemed weird for a girl to do for a guy who hasn't contacted her in two months): she is getting married.

Finally got reply from my two to her yesterday ":)o you want to meet at (our place) soon?"

"Hi. A lot happening. Can't make definite plans"

That does not sound like backing off or game playing to me. My gut is pretty decent even when I'm in such a skittishly weird scenario; her first reply was super happy like I haven't heard in a while and I guess I can attribute that to 'you finally texted!' but somehow seemed like I caught her while she was skipping down the street. She put out the 'talk to you soon?' and then a day later wants to meet me. Seems forward/anxious even for a girl that was nutso about me. He slams me, storms out, doesn't contact me except for one email then disappears again for a month, texts me out of the blue am I going to be super nice and then try to move back to a date? Without even making him sweat? Doesn't add up.

Anyway here was my reply

"No worries. Reach out when you want or when you can I am here"

Trying to sound a) no pressure b) unconcerned b) open c) supportive. I didn' want to pry or to make any reference to the 'lots of things'.

If she's getting married I'm not really upset I think I am much more at peace about all this since her replies which at least let me know I wasn't crazy she really cared about me. I'd already dropped any desire to find out what happened or get an apology (since I realized I had at least something to do with it). All I'd had left was apology to her but given her reply to my letter a month ago which was devoid of any anger/recrimination and her current replies she seems good with me. I think my letter last time went a long way and let her know all the things I would have said in a lot less words. I mean "I never realized how much my heart would soar when I saw your name pop up on my phone" has to tell her how I felt.

In any event all that was really left was reconnecting as friends (hard) or moving back together as lovers/relationship. Somehow that just feels like it is not happening. I still feel like someone came along when we started, not sure if abusive ex or her boss who might have been pushed into making a move after keeping her waiting for years if she told him she was not in a committed relationship. Can't compete with a billionaire :|

Anyway we'll see, I thought my text was as good as I could do, wasn't any 'heart on the sleeve' about it but still welcoming to her. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I either get text or email in next month or so she is engaged.

Hi 1stTimer,

I have to admit I've been wondering what is up with you!

Did I miss a step somehow? She confirmed she is getting married? If so, I am so sorry about that, but if that is the reality we take that and work with that okay.

How are you feeling? (I know I would feel both relieved in a way and hurt in a way.)

I'll say more when I am sure I am up to speed!

take care fella!

~pearl.

Hi Pearl, in fact she did not say a thing of the the sort. I am utterly extrapolating. Her replies so far have been

In reply to my first and only reach out since the nice letter I sent her a month ago which in turn only communication after I stormed out on her and yelled at her (much deserved but still):
- hi thank you I hope you are well too such a nice day talk later ok?

I thought the tone of this was super happy and my very first gut reaction was she was getting married. Sounded like she was skipping on air when she wrote it and guess I didn't consider at all it was for me ie. 'he texted!' The 'talk later ok?' seemed like a definite "I want to talk to you" not a generic response. I replied non-commital 'that sounds nice'.

Surprisingly the very next noon (Sunday, whilst I am feverlishly figuring out next move to see if I can engage since her reply seemed very much to invite it) I get this
- Would you like to meet at (place we met) soon?

I actually take this as confirmation of my first hunch. I mean it just seems weird/desperate almost for this girl or any girl after all that happened to explode us and the things I said would not only reply so fast but then instead of waiting for me to make a move ask me out (and to the place we met no less). It seemed like she had things to tell me (esp since her first reply even made that clear) and she wanted to get it done as fast as possible. Yeah I guess she could have texted that or, more to the point, never replied to me at all.

I am downtown and unclear if she means soon lunch of soon sometimes so I text
- Sure. Soon as in now/lunch or soon as in some time this week

No reply all day. Hmm. Next day (yesterday) in am I decide to be pro-active:
- And another beautiful day. Let me know if Thursday night works for you

No reply all day BUT at 11:30 at night I get
- Hi A lot happening. Can't make definite plans

Sure I'm reading a ton into this but it is adding up for me to my first very hard gut on this. Remember I thought she went back to ex (whom she ran into night of dinner) but another theory I had based on where she texted from before she 'sat me down' was that her billionaire boss whom she had an affair with and who told her to 'wait' for him (for years it seemed and she'd given up on) found out she was in a 'committed relationship' and was forced to act. All supposition here.

But her text wasn't just her pulling back to compensate for the fact she might have seemed to eager (again I am sure if her mom/sis found out SHE asked ME out they'd have yelled at her this is what you did the first time, pursued him, you shouldn't even have answered his text for a week let alone asked him out. again). It wasn't 'I'm busy sorry' pull back. It as 'A lot is happening'. Means major things in her life as I take it. And 'can't make definite plans'? "Our place" is 10 blocks from her house.

This is all just me going with my gut based on... .everything ... .and most especially my reaction to her first text. It would be great if my texting out of the blue made her skip in the air like that but it just seeme to me like my text caught her at a moment of joy so all the stuff that happened didn't even matter.

If she is getting married; relieved in a way sure, hurt in a way sure, sad in a way because part of me still would love to back up and see what we had with BOTH of us with our arms down (mainly means me fully present and not holding back and giving her the love/affection/validation she wanted).

Could be much ado about nothing of course and she just backed off hard/fast due to realizing he eagerness was exactly what got her (she and her mom/sis think) in this place in the first place. They are all wrong in fact, her playing hard to get or getting me to chase her would not have made me like her more. Couldn't care less about a 'challenge' in a woman, not liking me doesn't make me like anyone more (I'm actually healthy that way), LIKING me does and connection does.

Anyway sorry for my 3am ramble, my reply was this

No worries. Reach out when you want or when you can. I am here.

Seemed supportive, unconcerned, and open.

For all I know this could be classic BPD response, I have no idea. Just lost any of my intiial 'hmm maybe we have something here'. I was getting to the point where I thought she had given it all thought, was waiting for me to reach out though and when I did jumped at the chance.
-  

Yeah I get reality but to me that would support the whole invalidity and weirdness of what happened. I know it happens to people every day on this board so 'old news' but for me, spending two months spinning around after being almost corralled into a committed relationship future only to find out the other person was spending two months getting engaged and married is a tough one, however I felt.  I was feeling... .great... .about her reply and even better about her desire to meet at our place. It sort of validated... .everything... .and removed pretty much all the pain I've been in for months. Not that that would return if she now blows me off or tells me she is getting married but would sort of make it all bs and hurt a bit. Again as you know in part because I've been in an intense 15 year limbo and almost had a relationship/woman in my life and connections are hard for me to make (don't just go on a date, connect, have sex, and ta-da!).

What I'm hoping is that she knee-jerk reacted and her happiness was in fact me and her text was basically that "you called! let's talk again!" and that she knee-jerk messed up asking me out a day later and her entire family and therapist laid into her for doing what she did the first time; pursuing me and making it "easy" for me (cause naturally guys only respect you if it is hard :| ) and now she is finding a way to withdraw and make me chase. I just don't read it like that. "A lot is happening" doesn't mean "I'm busy with work" it means life changes. I know it is not moving she just did to her dream apartment (after I helped her score a 50% raise), it is not her job she loves her job, works for a billionaire, used to LOVE him, he told her to wait and led her on (one reason she needs to know a guy is 'committed' so she doesn't waste her time on one guy who isn't) so she isn't leaving that job. That leads very few 'lots happening' events.

What I don't get if my gut on this is right is; why reply to ME at all if she is engaged. Who am I then? Some guy that was part of her pool who left when she pushed? We didn't ever enter into our serious relationship, we weren't married or engaged, there would be no reason to reach out to me or reply. If she DID she could be polite "I am fine hope you are too see you around". But she replied excited and invited me to open dialogue. AND then invited me to our bar. Can she really have been planning to take the time to meet me after two months of NC just to let me know she is enagaged and not available? She wouldn't 'owe' me that unless we'd been communicating and startng to reestablish our relationship. We did not. Our ties were cut. So I'm really at a loss here and honestly tired of being at a loss in a relationship that isn't even one. So much stress and uncertainty and treading on eggshells and ambigious morality for what? Confused more than anything and now I've manueavered my self with my reply into wait mode. I'm not sure what else I could have replied other than calm, accepting, I'm here if you want.

I will be honest your story as it stands now sounded like mine near the end.Maybe it’s just as simple as her being nice to you and that’s it? I spoke with mine as early as Friday when she texted me have a Good Friday , I responded you to and a good weekend ... .It only means we are being nice to each other nothing more.

In my case I don't think so. You two were in contact, talking. We had a MASSIVE blow out with me storming out, the day after we spent as official boyfriend/girlfriend and her doing massive future bomb (as she has since I met her). The whole 'official' thing was her pressure as it has been since we met. Basically I gave her everything she had wanted for months; a commited relationship. When she got scared or whatever it was and cut and run next day I slammed her and left. We didn't text/call/speak for two months so I don't believe her reply to me was 'being nice' and her reaching out for us to meet at our place was 'being nice'. There were intense feelings especailly on her side, and an intense cyclone leading to us committing to be together. Two months ago she was dying ot introduce me to her family as her first real boyfriend in ten years, wanted to buy a king size bed for us to sleep in every night, was discussing every aspect of our future together. She got scared I get it. But I don' think her reply to me two months later w/o any discussion since was her 'being nice'. Being nice is 'thanks I am fine hope you are too'. She clearly wanted to talk and meet and backed off fast.

I'd sort of preferred; look meeting will be hard but had wanted to just let you know abc. Again WHY? Why get back in touch, why push meeting? Why at a bar, why at our bar? Just to say hey btw I'm engaged/married. Just doesn't make sense other than cruelty. Hey that guy I really liked and almost got serious with but blew up in our face called me out of the blue two months later, I'll reply and meet him so I can tell him I'm getting married. Does. Not. Compute.

I'm going to take the sweet reply I first got and run with it, this seems more and more to be the type of BPD behavior I read about AND the reason I first posted to this board. I had talked myself into it being my own issues and less of hers but this seems to confirm what happened the whole time that led me here in the first place. And the last thing I want to do is get spun around in BPD recycling/devaluing/games.

Shawn, if you read back through your posts you will note that you when you assign intent to her actions, it is more based on what you need to hear in order to cope or manage your emotional reactions than what  is most likely happening.

You wear a mask to yourself. If make you feel safe.  At the same time, it jerks you around... .this is why you go through lofty highs and dark valleys, and conflicting truths (she's a cheater, shes not a cheater) often within hours of each other.

This has not served you well. Do you remember how you angry and accusatory you were at her silence only to find out she was pregnant. Your assignment o intent was way off.

I think if you seek a more clinical truth, you will find it very painful in the beginning, because it is going to push some self doubt buttons, but then you will breakthrough and actually see yourself - your good guy side and not so good guy side - the one all of us have. Seeing that "not so good guy side" clinically (not with a lofty high or deep value eyes) is sobering but it is also the path to being a better person.


I think it means more than that. It's not a natural communication - its not your birthday, she is not bumping into you at the market - she doesn't typically wish you "happy Friday" - its an awkward probe to engage you.

Just like 1T's text about the park was a probe, an opening. You just contacted her recently to "see if she was OK" which, despite what you tell yourself or the members here (  *) ) was you probing her.

This spring, your relationship got very emotionally difficult - you really reacted to her pulling back and whacked her back pretty hard - she withdrew - you exited multiple times - she finally ended that by exiting herself. I'm sure she has doubts about reconnecting, but she has not dismissed it. You had the lunch which was positive. And then the "how are you" text from you. And now this.

This that couple of months recovery we talked about. It can go this way.

I might have responded to her by telling her something interesting that you were doing this weekend... .just creak that door open. You will get another chance - not damage done.

There was, however,  a lot of damage done this Spring. She doesn't want to ignite that again for sure (the bad stuff). She also knows you have been seeing other women (as you suspect of her, too). But she has not gone away. She probably doesn't know what she wants and is exploring multiple directions forward for her life. You are in that running at some level.

I think that is likely the intent.

Hi 1stT-
Your text to her was kind.  Her response was receptive and allowed you back into her "circle".  She feels good knowing you're there.  Who knows who else inhabits that space... .she sort of let you in on those "others" during the 18 hours of your "Official Togetherness".  If I recall, it was during that period that she disclosed information about other men she had seen while she saw you, right?  Actually, even before then she made a few disclosures that you accepted because you really were NOT steadily together, and I can kind of see her point.  Except... .I'm unclear about the timeline.  But water under the bridge anyway, except for the disclosures on the OFFICIAL NIGHT.

Many BPDs need fallback people in case things don't work out.  That emptiness needs to be filled.  Gotta have that "love", for what it's worth.  Your good news, and you already knew this, is that she doesn't "hate" you or seemingly hold a grudge, at least right now, for how you reacted when she sprung the great guy news on you.

Seems the younger BPDs (men AND women) have a hard time living the one partner concept (that fear of abandonment thing, gotta have someone in the wings).  More mature BPDs (mine is/was 60) have often put their cheating ways in the rear view mirror.  Guess it's harder to keep track of their lies (or their phones), maybe even their stiffies!  Sorry, had to say it - humor is my lifeline right now.

So a few questions... .actually one question.  No, some questions.  What evidence have you seen that this woman is prepared to be that supportive, hold that sword to keep away predators if you're ever temporarily down on your knees, lifelong lover that YOU deserve?  Can SHE truly make a decision, answer a question you ask honestly without taking a poll of sisters, mothers, therapists, people on the street, current and past lovers?  What will she bring TO your life to elevate you?  Can she be a partner for you?  A giving lover to you?

You were needed so much by family members during the last 12+ years.  Giving and giving... .a lot of sacrifice.  Time to fulfill some dreams, wouldn't you say?

And the guessing game... .what's in her head.  I remember asking BPDbf one night as we laid our heads on pillows... ."what do you see when you close your eyes?"  He said, "darkness".  I howled with laughter, because I knew it was the truth.  His lack of depth scared me into laughing.  It was at that point I realized how little he had ever understood a word I had said for years... .man he had me fooled.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

 C<||| Skip

You could be correct and she may have been probing but I wasn’t.After talking to my therapist about everything that happened for sure in the past my decisions were probing “intent” if you will.Now not at all, I have zero will or intent to get back into a relationship with her.Dont forget we were friends prior to being intimate and in a relationship for a little over 5 years .When I found out she wasn’t doing too well my sole intent was to check on her and see if she was doing well.The minor polite and friendly interaction we’ve had were simple texts .I kinda think it’s pretty nice to be friendly again,as my therapist puts it, don’t over analyze,don’t read in meanings to the simplest gestures ,don’t think outside the obvious ... .pretty much all things I’ve done in my past that frankly caused unrequired turmoil.Not everyone with BPD is out to reconnect and tamper with people mentally in a malicious way,sometimes they just are normal.We used to text each other prior to our relationship like this often ,just friendly pokes of “hey you how’s life treating you” ,nothing complicated ,keep it simple .Feels good and at the same time keeps everything nice and amicable.
I’d of agreed with you 100% if the phone was blowing up with texts ,emails,calls, but there is nobody leading anyone on here,zero expectations usual equals zero issues .
As I heal and better myself certain jesters mean different things now.Old Shawn yeah I could see it ,the pokes ,prodding the watch see up to now ,what she thinking,I gotta see her again.But as more and more time goes by that old thought pattern took a long walk away.As my therapist puts it “if you can wish someone you love and let go a good day and how’s it going” while going about your normal life with sincerity,you are finally getting the point ! Its not only about you and you finally realized it, so in turn I did exactly that! Asked her how she was doing ,genuinely happy she’s doing well, wished her a great weekend in response to her text , with zero feelings of wanting anything in return ... .frankly I was and am happy about feeling this way ,feels less selfish ,less needy,more manly .

Hmm no but the timeline does get confusing. When I was realizing we 'had' something (keys, drawers, making love, etc.) she let me know she 'dabbled' as she called it with some guy. I still believe it was part of her campaign to get me to ask her to be my gf ("you'll ask me by the end of the month I guarantee you". She said as much "I'm just trying to get you jealous and see we should be in a relationship". I didn't hear about 'men' just the one and then some date she was going to go on she didn't. And again this was when she was trying to get me to agree to start staying over and waking up in my arms. I don't really think she was a sleep around person or had multiple men. Even during the two years I knew her she hardly ever had dates and, if she is to be believed, when we did have that great 8 hour consummation she said it was the first sex she'd had in a year.

What she revealed on Official Togetherness Night  was that she'd actually had feelings for her abusive ex I did not realize and she'd seen him the day before and it hurt her and she almost cancelled our dinner. No idea if she went back to him or not.  So basically found out she'd started becomong receptive to dating, but only because I wasn't coming around and what she WANTED was me to come around.

Just to put that whole other guy part to rest; when we had that week where were not 'official' until I officially asked I finally asked her if that is because there are other men she wanted to be with or get out of her system or just in general sow her oats. Which I said was fine but naturally would not be asking her to be my one and only if so. She said absolutely not, nothing and no one to get out of my system and texted me 'I am 100% committed to you I just can't wait for you to ask me again'



Yet this was her entire THEME since I met her. Wanted a committed monogamous relationship. Told me after we slept together that she thinks she never wants to have sex again unless married or in committed relationship. Said and alluded to the fact she hasn't had sex in a long time and does not unless she really likes someone, and said all the time "I'm a one-woman man". One reason I liked her so much since that is the kind of man I am. One reason her whole "I know I'd cheat on him if I dated/married him" spun me out of control and really was at the center of all of my lash outs after. Because if that is true she was 180 degrees from who I was, what I beleived in and what she said and who I fell for.


Well right now mostly things she said such as "I don't care that you live with your mother, I love the fact you care for her and believe in you" and "Perhaps you don't need this to make a billion or a million you just need to make a life you are happy with". Words? Sure. But the girl did in her own way stick by my side waiting for me to come around for a long long time.



Not sure if she 'polls' as much as she has a mom and sis who believe in 'men provide and protect women talk to them and make them better men' (she told me that I said I'm a better man than you can imagine I don't need you to make me better), men should court, women should make men chase, feel uncertain, etc. She was basically telling me though since she wanted me to court and chase her. Funny when I said 'let's keep our mother's opinions out of it?' and finally shared my mother's opinion she got mad.

I think she brought a lot already to elevate me. I think she was very supportive of me and affectionate to me and made a beautiful birthday for me (when no one else remembered). I think she could be fantastically giving if I'd opened myself up to appreciating her back. Yes.

God yes. I'm working on it. And one of those dreams was a woman by my side who I could love fully. And I want(ed) to see what this women who could love and support me the way she did with me holding back could love me when I loved her as fully as I am capable of which is a LOT. I think she felt this and knew this. She told me at 'the end' how much she loved how I was with her in a way she'd never experienced; communicative, romantic and if she liked me before I'm pretty sure that, the explosion aside, she got a taste as I did of what we could be with my hands down and heart open too. I'll never forget her face when she asked me, after telling me how much she hated her (admittely not the best) hands 'name ONE thing you like about them' and I said 'they are connected to you'. I don't think she has ever been loved like that.

That is scary to be sure. I'm less and less convinced she has BPD. I don't even know about this whole marriage thing, I'm TOTALLY guessing this mainly out of fear. I loved her happy immediate reply to me and her desire to talk, I LOVED that she asked ME out the next day and at 'our place'. I loved what it seemed to possibly imply, that she too has been pining for what we had, realized what we lost. Since I am not a man who falls for women because I 'win' them or because of their bodies or ANYTHING but our connection; how they felt about me and how I felt about them, I'm going to have to guess my feelings two full months out meant there was a CONNECTION which would by definition not just mean ME. I'll tell you something 'stupid'; the day before I texted her I FELT her. I felt in fact almost exactly the nature of her reply. If she was not (as I feared) walking on air because she was in love, she was because of me reaching out. It all is great and happy up to her asking me to our place again.

I cannot for the life of me see her doing that to hurt me. I like to see it and FEELS like it from her replies that that connection is as deep as I feel it here. So for now if I let go of my fear about what 'could' be and just go on our past and her past behaviors, I'd have to posit that she scared herself, again, and realized that she was doing 'it' again'; pursuing me. She took my # early on, she'd text me to see if I wanted to meet at bar x or bar y, she'd text me to ask her out. I'm sure she got a s***storm for doing it again.

I'm trying to just be with this without my fear and believe the 'felt her' and the replies are what they felt like. It is why I replied the way I did because to me it basically says, I think "Take your time, I still love you and am here when and if you are ready". It's all I can do.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes
[/quote]

Dear 1stT-
Now DON'T do this right NOW, just think about it, ok?  And I want to know what Skip thinks about it. 

Courting... .have you EVER sent or given her flowers?  Nothing HUGE!  Maybe a bundle of colorful wildflowers in a simple vase she can keep with a handwritten note "These lovely colors bring you to mind, xo your name".   You can personally leave this with her doorman when you know she's at work.    Put the note in a sealed envelope.  You do this on a weekday, NOT on a Friday!  And then turn your phone off that evening and go hear some great music in a smoky bar!  Just do something different for yourself.

I loved when I was given flowers from men who cared for me.  I have received them from friends and lovers... .always felt the same appreciation at the thought.  I sure as heck could use them now... .

If she is in a serious relationship, she will tell you then.  And that is something you want to know, right? 

If she is not in a serious r/s, is afraid, unsure of her feelings or wants to be courted, the flowers will be a sweet and relatively inexpensive way to get that ball rolling.  Either way, finding out sooner rather than later if you're more than a "great guy" will be to your benefit, right? 

In NYC, there are incredible flower stands everywhere!  When I visit the city, I ALWAYS marvel at the displays of color and think "I need those for my hotel room".  On my next visit, I'm going to do that for certain!

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

I love giving women flowers. My last ex I became an expert in the art :) and had an amazing place in San Francisco where I'd go either make custom bouqets myself and/or ask them to make one for an occasion. I think the last one was 'I messed up I'm sorrry. Wait no; I didn't mess up but I'm apologizing anyway because I love you so it doesn't matter that you messed up. Something like that. And throw in a white Ranunculus'

I was going to get her flowers for The Big Date That Wasn't :| but it seemed off by then.

Anyway. I think it is premature. I think it won't go over well right now. I don't think it will push her towards me. I think her last text was asking for space after she came towards me.

Honestly my big question is not 'is she in a serious relationship'. I'll take her on her word there was no one else and she had nothing and no one to get out of her system. Except of course the abusive emotionally degrarding ex which couldn't have lasted long IF she went back to him. And her billionaire boss who clearly was never going to marry her. I mean clearly there is always the possibility but my own insecurities made me thing her happiness when she texted me back was 'other directed' and that her unpromted invitation to meet up was to tell me about it and her 'lots happening' was an engagement. That is all just me being insecure. I mean it all COULD be but it just doesn't add up to the entire situation. I think a) she was clearly very happy to hear from me and b) jumped the shark asking me out and c) backed off because of that. I can't however push FORWARD from that so I think my reply  was spot on. If I don't hear from her in say... .2 weeks... .I can gently reach out. Maybe at some point I'll need to go 'big gesture' on flowers but I think it is for when we know we are or might be moving forward. I think it would scare her off now, we have things we need to discuss and clearly she has some skittishness that won't be addressed by flowers.

On the courting, man I have to tell you it used to piss me off when she would tell me her mom/sis said that. I was crystal clear where I was. I also thought given I'd worked hard to help get her a huge raise that got her into her new lux place, was super supportive and non-judgmental about her issues she shared with me which she was worried would drive me away, didn't sleep with her when I could have because I did not want what she wanted, and when I did finally was spectacularly tuned into her needs, someone in her family could have looked a those VERY important indications of respecting her as a person and a lady and not said 'he needs to buy you dinner' to boot. But no one really cared I did that and no one really cared where *I* was coming from or my limitations I had to give emotionally.

As an fyi and not to do pity-party me; when I say I helped take care of my dad after losing the woman I loved and career in California and coming back to NY lost, I mean I ended up living with two other adults (mother and sister) on top of one another ,me in a single-bed in the dinette in the kitchen w/o a door for YEARS. I mean we watched my father slowly lose his mental faculties, his balance, his ability to feed himself, and control over his bowels. We dealt with him escaping for awhile, then had to listen out for him falling (often finding him in the am on the floor) and clean his urine and feces while he sat mortified and unable to speak. The house smelt like urine for 5 years after his death. We were on top of each other all day like this, I made some money walking dogs, which after having a career was not only humbling buit about as lonely a thing as you can imagine; walking into other peoples homes who have lives and wives while they are out living them so you can pick up their dog poo. We had a younger sister who didn't help but she'd drop her dog off for the 4 of us to walk while she went to her beach house every weekend. My sister was in and out of both rehab and institutions and was emotionally abusive and almost managed to alientate ME from the entire extended family so I ended up eating along every night for years. When my dad passed away my mother, who had known him since she was 17 cloistered herself in her room until she almost died of grief. Just before I started with this girl, I took my mother to California to visit the same younger sister, hoping that seeing her favorite child and her niece and a new setting might salvage her soul (I was texting same girl at the time while I was there so she knew some of this). Yet my sister and her husband were so engrossed in their million-dollar problems the made matters worse treating my mother worse. One night they left to go to some swanky party or the other and my mother begged me to stay and not leave her alone. We started talking and she started crying telling me about going to some mall with them earlier in the day and kept saying the mezzanine wasn't high enough. I kept asking what she meant and finally she wailed 'to jump to jump to jump'. My mother had contemplated killing herself. I had to lay into my sister to get her to get her act together (thank god she did) and spent most of the time there, while desparately trying to pull my business venture critial to getting my life back together, walking my mother every day around Santa Monica to get her mentally back in shape. Whilst there she broke her leg so I had to stay even longer (she begged me to not leave her with them) and I had to twist arms with the airline to get get curbside escorts and wheelchair to the plane door and got them to do free upgrades to first-class and got her home alone. When I returned is when things 'started' with this girl. And I was still trying desparetly to get this venture off the ground which required daily knife fights (so to speak) with offshore developers who mainly stole my money while my life drained out the sand clock. So when I say to this girl "I have nothing to give emotionally" I'm not being a weenie who just had a divorce of had a demotion. I'm desparately trying to save my mother, deal with a complet and utter lack of privacy and dignity as a grown man, and create a technology no one has been able to on basically pennies, my whole entire future dependent on my ability to do so. So I gave to this woman what I could; I spent hours and days helping to draft a proposal for HER job which resulted in a life changing raise and to be there for her emotionally and physically as much as I could. So yeah, having her mom and sis say 'he needs to step up his game' created some push back on the whole 'courting' thing and having her tell me, knowing how I wanted to move to California to put the years of hell behind me and start fresh that I needed to consider staying in NY ANYWAY because her job was here even though we had not even had intercourse yet... So you can see there is a lot more here than just some guy who was skittish about committing and didn't do the right thing and court the girl. it took everything I had to come around and decide that SHE should be the most important thing in my life and it was HER future I needed to worry about and HER needs I needed to worry about. That 'be my one and only' wasn't some high school kid asking a girl to the prom, it was a massively difficult decision made by a man with very little to give except at that point his heart. It was me letting go of all of that and deciding to give everything I had to her including my future. Letting go of what ended up happening in context to all this took a lot of work and introspection so I could understand that she too had a past and if her past affected me than mine surely affected her so at least one of us needs to put that aside and look out for the other if anything is to come of it.

Sorry for the digression but the whole 'buy her flowers' thing just triggers the whole issue behind the relationship and having it pulled like that in the first place. Wasn't jsut as simple 'ask me out no never mind'.

So no :) I am not dropping flowers off. We have other things we need to get past. If she is with someone else than so be it, I just don't see how that is really a/the issue. I think my text meant the world to her and I think she probably broke some 'rule' she'd made about not pursuing let him pursue. I could be all wrong but then I could be wrong about anything I posit. Right now I a) sent a beautiful letter so she knows how I really felt b) reached out with my heart free of any need for apology or explanation just caring (despite my spew above) c) gently let her know when she took a step back I am here when/if she is ready to reach out. If she does and we can get to a good spot I will shower her with flowers and courtship and love :)

Ooops!  Sorry, 1stT.  Point received.  Sincerely didn't mean to trigger.

Gemsforeyes

Oh man no need to apologize Gem your idea was beautiful and appreciated. I just still sometimes get triggered by the whole 'he needs to court you' when the girl was aggresively chasing me and ignoring my boundaries. Yep eventually she won me over with her support and caring but still. I'm happy to court her now when *I* am ready and have space for it. But seriously no worries, I liked your idea. I just don't think my main concern is REALLY 'is she in serious relationship'. I've actually talked to a few actively dating women I know in that age range (25-45) and to a person the say there is no way they'd have reached out to me if they'd ended up in serious relationship and if they had they'd have made sure it was far more distancing and cool, and they'd have a) not invited me out and b) likely would have followed up with the news. I agree. So far consensus from 'the girls' is she was super happy to hear from me, got ahead of herself asking me out, and backed off and my reply was great. For whatever that is worth :) Damn it was was easier not dating for a decade.

One thing I remembered as I got into a more 'calm place' is that her job often requires her to accommodate large parties of incoming guests and business associates which becomes a sort of day and night thing which could clearly explain 'lots happening' and not being able to commit to any night schedule. Funny how clear things get when you are not spinning around. Gotta say man I am in SUCH a good place on all this!

Well tonight was the night I invited her to 'our place' where she reached out and asked me, unprompted, if I'd like to meet her soon (to which, after all that, got the 'lots happening can't make firm plans'. I'm going to go and see if she shows up anyway. Gotta say I'm kinda losing steam on the whole thing though, sort of feel like I'm just going through the motions. I guess that is a good thing?

You are too used to the drama.  *)  Things are as good as they could be right now, all things considered.

Are you going on the off chance of seeing her there?  What if you do see her?  What if she doesn' show.  I don't see a win in any of that.

Play the long game.

I'm going because I go most nights these days. Home too quiet so I go have 1-2 glasses and often talk to that woman who is so nice/supportive/great/gorgeous and tells me how much she adores me  No romance there but nice to talk to great women who think you are great.

I guess I'm saying I see less and less of a long game.  All that burning need/pain sort of burned off with a) your help in my removing any need to know/understand/blame b) her kind and even eager replies. I think in the end even if we reconnected I'd do it for the wrong reasons; she is great because she supports me and thinks I am great. No doubt those are good things to acknowledge when they happen and not take for granted, and no DOUBT I need that in my life big time. But it is no basis for a relationship or love. I did great thing for her and supported her but never really loved/wanted her. Which is where I was when I was with her. My thinking is it would be nice to reconnect, let her know a few things if the opportunity arises and leave it at that or friends (which is where we started). And this time I'll be a lot better at acknowledgement.

Naturally all bets are off when we see each other. If we see each other. Which is now entirely in her ballpark.

Because it is all drama. In fact it is the same drama I arrived here with.

"Hi! I'm so happy to hear from you let's talk!" 2 minutes after I reached out followed by the unprompted ":)o you want to meet at "our place" soon?" followed by the terse "Lots happening. Can't make firm plans" after a two-day silence in reply to my affirmative to her inviation followed by radio silence  IS drama. It is her getting her fix and me getting hurt.

One might say it is an almost perfect mirroring and summary of the original relationship. Even down to the ambiguous "can't commit" at the end in response to my invitation to HER invitation to ask her. I don't find that 'good as they could be" at all. I find her reply a carefully constructed one to boot. Not "family in town/work-crazy this week how about next one instead?" or "June is a whirlwind (you know my crazy boss!) can we wait for July?". Hers is terse, 180 degree change in temperature, and really leaves no opening and makes me feel, again, I've asked someone who didn't want something for it (even though they asked me to ask!). Can't make firm plans... .ever? In fact I have so many more important things in my life now, I can't imagine any I'd end up not changing any plans I made with you for them at the last minute? You've ceased to be important enough to me to ink in anything ever?

You might not find this manipulative drama and believe I read too much into words. But words matter and her words and tone in action in the first two were as crystal clear as the ones in her "final one". I wasn't 'reaching' or 'hoping' on her first reply or reading too much into it; this girl who'd planned her entire future around me two months earlier (and possibly for a year or more before that) replied to me w/o hesitation and with joy and asked me if I wanted to talk when I reached out after two months of silence. Didn't make me sweat it for a week, didn't play cool, didn't protect her feelings. Same girl couldn't wait an entire day for me to take the bait before following up asking ME out to the place we met, clearly having been as eager as I was to see her to see me and not even willing to wait for me to take the invitation offered. Those are all good if not great things. They are designed to make me feel great and designed for me to put MY guard down. And the last reply is just as carefully designed; to slam the door back in my face. 1 hour to get back to me with an ecstatic reply, 1 day to ask me out since I didn't bite the first time, and a 2 day wait to blow me off when I said yes yes yes? In my book that is called Manipulative Drama, all caps intended.

If I were where I was a few weeks back before processing this (i.e. if I hadn't come here) in all honesty Skip I'd be an utter mess now.  As it is I'm just a little unhappy as it removed for me the slightest hope at reconciliation which I was 50/50 on anyway.

The problem for me is I'm still just stuck in the 'girlfriend' mindset since she'd opened me up to that and all the loss that entails. I was on friend's roof deck with his girlfriend watching the summer solstice sunset over a bottle or wine and realizing this would have been "our" first Double Date since we'd discussed doing so with him just before the excrement hit the rotary cooling device.  I was at a beach barbecue, everyone eating and laughing and the waves crashing CRUSHED she was not there. I've done that for summer after summer and happily enjoyed those "alone" since I'd managed to keep that door closed. These and 1000 other aren't things that would be a 'loss' or melancholy occasions without my having been sucked into the whole 'ask me to be your girlfriend ok be my girlfriend I don't want to be your girlfriend' lunacy in the first place. And that doesn't make me sad it makes me mad.

"Hi! I'm so happy to hear from you let's talk!" 2 minutes after I reached out followed by the unprompted ":)o you want to meet at "our place" soon?" followed by the terse "Lots happening. Can't make firm plans" after a two-day silence in reply to my affirmative to her inviation followed by radio silence  IS drama. It is her getting her fix and me getting hurt.
[/quote]

Man... .I've been through this loop with my ex- waif while we were trying to be 'friends'. Translate: (at least in her case, ) You can remain an orbiter IF you play along with anything i want to do - inc. radio silences / not answering texts in a decent time /asking ME meet on dates and then finding all manner of creative reasons not being able to commit, blah, blah. Even with my knowledge of BPD patience ran out at withing a couple of weeks.  Once you lose that honeymoon 'angel' you increasingly see the pathology unveiling. If we understand, that post -honeymoon period, they are naturally devaluing you, you can see why so many start to play games. 1) They have enough evidence to know you like them and 2) They are now 'coldly' enjoying sitting back and seeing how you respond to their manipulations. If you're devalued enough they'll show no respect at all and if you call them on their crap you're obviously going to be bounced for being far too much hassle (say hello to the needy /stalker / abuser accusations  ; )

I even recently met a woman, vibed really welll and she was very keen. Spoke on the Tuesday regarding doing a Fri or Sat date. Told her couldn't do Fri (but would get back to her Thursday re: Saturday). By the time i got back to her Thursday she had already sorted out Saturday (but didn't tell me first).

N.B. Beforehand I'd heard her tale of moving in a boyfriend after a month (who turned into a nutter) / how she was wiling to have a threesome to save her old marriage/ how anything goes in a relationship sexually when she likes someone. 

We haven't spoken since... .I haven't the stamina for the BS and only want 'healthy' and further head f... s hold ZERO appeal for me, .

In fact, I'd go as far as to say the only way to really 'win' in the date a BPD game (and I'm talking walf versions as the standard types is far too much hassle for me) is not to actually care / be too bothered about the particular person. Then it doesn't matter how often they dysregulate or when they eventually decide not to see you anymore!

And, of course, if it becomes clear they're now kind of 'out there' hunting you won't see them at that point anyway : )  

What is a 'waif BPD'?

I have no interest in either being in the or winning the Date a BPD Game. Again I'm coming at this from the POV that where I considered this a possible BPD it was two conflicted people's stuff hitting each other. In other words, giving her the benefit of the doubt of not being BPD, devaluing.

Lastly in any dating game I have no interest in caring or not being bothered. It is how many people date anyway, and in fact how I 'dated her' at first. In the end it is really no fun for either party. If you are with someone who rewards you for 'not caring' and not being available you are in a dance that just leads nowhere. My best relationship was with a woman who loved beng adored and loved adoring. Man that is something else. Having to pretend to her I did NOT adore her to get me to adore her would have been exhausting and unsatisfying.

Man I hope you are wrong on this. Not sure if you ever read my original post it was 'Was this BPD?" and I'm still unsure it was as I played a pretty big role in things.  I did totally call her on her crap and left about two months ago (if you didn't read  the whole things quick summary is she heavily pursued, I kept distance, she asked me to commit to full on real future-based relationship with official/grand gesture, did, next day she said not ready for a realtionship, I flipped on her and said I was going to go date).

I less read this as BPD devaluing than super-duper-confused woman. I get pissed at it and cll it manipulation in my worse moods. Unless she is insane and evil her replies to me were genuinely thrilled and her last one was her pulling back. I believe out of either "man I did it AGAIN I chased him and should have let him chase me" (the ENTIRE issue in our dance) or "man what am I getting myself into again".

If you are right and this is more BP that is horribly depressing. In any event after she did the 'can't make firm plans' after I agreed to meet her at 'our place' I said "No worries. Reach out when you can or when you want, I am here". I did THAT in best faith based on our prior relationship and some work I did here getting to how my treatment of her made her feel devalued, invalidated, unappreciated,insecure. If she takes it as a reason to show no respect bully for her. Who wants a relationship with someone who takes being treated WELL as an invitation to treat you like crap? Despite my 'manipulative!' reply this am I'll still treat this as a scared woman who was hurt in her own way circling back to me (perhaps) vs a BPD devaluing me. Opens me up to more I guess but I'd prefer to 'dance like no one is watching' if you get my meaning.

1stTimer - There's honestly no need to read too much into my last comment :)

Put simply, many recognise dating a BPD is one of the hardest path to relationship success and by far tends to results in a bad situation for a non. Hence my statement re. if 'someone' doesn't care than they can metaphorically 'win'.

No one said it needs to be a game - even if unfortunately that is what BPD's by default, often end up playing - and it's not fun. 

The good thing about this forum is you can see different perspectives (that won't always say what you might want to hear) and either take certain likely realities on board or choose not to. The other thing is you can come back in future and see whether they were on the ball or not too.       

1st timer - Just seen your last statement : ) I have been there and (for me) i had to decide my walf/ quiet BPD  (they internalize rather than rage - you get silent treatments/ withdrawing / passive aggression after the honeymoon period) was never going to stop being super -confused.

Again, put simply. You get close to them ... .their internal triggers can easily say I am feeling engulfed. And that can be after a great night out where it's been perfect and they have loved you to death! All too much for me in the end my friend... .as ending up in a situation where less and less made sense - while I was being treated with increasing inconsideration [devalued] wasn't my idea of fun.

She got well 'told' and I'm out of the situation : )

Hi Forearmed was not trying to give offense, just give you my perspective on what I am willing to do or not, not a judgment on what you do or not. In general I don't like acting like I don't care, and in fact is something of a trigger for me I guess since I caused a lot of trouble in this very relationship precisely because I held back and did just that and it caused not only me/us pain but her pain as well. So I wrap that knowledge into my responses to her and try not to judge her as BPD or Waif or as playing mind games with me. I get where you are coming from with your ex-waif and feel for you. I'm just trying go give her benefit of doubt and not assume the worst.

It would be interested to compare notes some time  as I came here precisely to see if I was dealing with BPD or... .myself :)  I didn't really get to a devalue stage is the thing (as far as I know).

Your replies put me in a funny spot as after dealing with some others here I've gotten to more of a 'mea culpa' on this where I need to reach out, heal, court. Then I read your replies and feel like I am being a total fool. Hard to know how to proceed. Scared girl I made worse being unavailable/unready and hurt badly when I told her off? BPD girl who is unfaithful, has a stable of men she texts/f-s/holds on a string about 'you are the one I'm a one-woman man' while messing with all of their heads/souls/bodies? It is a horrid two-headed coin to wonder about because choosing the wrong means you deal with that side of the coin in the utterly and entirely wrong way.

Not just on a night she loved me to death, on a night she planned basically our entire future after I agreed to be a couple. Not not *me* planning our future and her running. Me just agreeing to be a couple. Her planning it all as if we'd gotten engaged. That is... .self-engulfment. Man I just said "yes let's agree we are in a real relationship and see what we really have here". I wasn't shopping for new beds, figuring out where we'd leave, what our pet names should be, what our 'official' date night would be, announcements to extended family about our relationship, figuring out if she would keep her job or not (she would) and talking about how we had 'a lifetime to figure each other out'.

I'd get if I triggered here if I said that or in fact said that to ANY woman after we decided/realized we were in a 'real' relationship. But trigger yourself?

Times  : ) No need to feel like a fool you're a 'good' guy and that causes problems for the worst BPDs ('nice' guy - their favourites - don't get annoyed / angry ; )  

I have knowledge of BPD and even I (at a arms length sitch had to take stock of how messy it can get!) I live with my ex-  partner (for now)  so that didn't help my BPD waif, tbf. That aside, living independently she wouldn't have got half the patience i showed.  

So you're aware, a key BPD feature is to get carried away emotionally with someone they like, get close... .and then suddenly 'feel engulfed / suffocated/ trapped /that they will be hurt. So at the beginning of a relationship their positive [over]emotions are overriding their fears. Then as it progresses the fear starts to manifest in the behaviours you speak of. Many won't stick around to let them cycle through the 'idealise / devalue /discard' phases.

BTW, don't beat yourself up at the incongruency of her reactions. If you've had enough normal relationship circs you very quickly realise something isn't right i.e. when even standing your ground reasonably becomes a major problem to her.  

No problem being called a 'Nice Guy' I am and proud of it, it isn't a badge of weakness to me. I'm also a strong/centered/boundary one as well. Usually women say something like 'so strong and sweet' which I think is a good/attractive combo.

That said I did talk to an expert in BPD especially BPD/Nice Guy. She said Nice Guys dont recognize the problem until too late because the qualities that BPD women project on them ARE their qualities so they think the BPD person actually sees them.



I've had some very nice relationships with some great women, this one threw me for a loop with very incongruous behavior that send me in a tailspin (one comment in particular). I didn't like her behavior from the outset and rejected sex/relationship with her. She sort of wore me down :| when I started believing it was about me and she in fact treated me really well. See you have me talking as if she is/was BPD again and not sure I buy it.  One thing I slammed her with on 'the way out' (the day she told me she wasn't ready for a relationship after months of intense pressure and the night after an Official Ask Date she put enormous pressure on me to do ) was "I KNEW you were like this when we met, I KNEW you were full of s*** and that is why I never wanted to date you". Ouch. Oh and "thank you for opening my heart to dating again I'm going to go date". Ouch. Ouch.

LOL! Trust me, 'nice guys' (major codependents, IMO) don't call them out at all easily. They will typically bend over backwards to lose their damn selves in keeping their princess happy! 'Good' guys are decent guys simply unafraid to call out BS. Just my take : )

I don't subscribe to needing to be a clinical psychologist to diagnose certain things as anyone can learn about human psychology / twinned with life experience. In my solid experience of women in general, at best, she's a serious player and, at worst (esp. if the behaviour seems innate) well on the 'spectrum'.

Good luck 1st Timer, as once forearmed people can then only hurt us to the extent 'we' allow ; )

Semantics on naming. I in fact always called her on her BS from day one, and even in the final cycle. She never liked it. I even called her on it when she'd get mad at me for calling her on it and demand an apology.

I'll have to say you've lost some credibility here to make that kind of judgment with little evidence. I live in Manhattan and lived for years in San Francisco. I knew and know and have been friends with many MANY female 'players' that wrapped men around their fingers and did so out of the sheer mean joy of it (and the free dinners of course). I can spot them a mile away. I've spent hours listening to them talk about how and why they do what they do and the pleasure they get from it. This girl was not a player and nothing close to it. I think you are doing some projecting here.  About the only thing once could glean from anything I said is that she may have BPD tendencies and got terrified (or terrified herself) when she finally got what she wanted (a serious relationship with me). Nothing I said about her and nothing about my experience with her inidcates at all 'player'. Damaged, scared, hurt, yup.  And everything about everything she did, even if last texts play right into that. If you feel it is being an 'LOL nice guy' to not 'see' that it was a 'player' move that is your right. I don't buy it, I don't see it, I don't think it. I think it is your bad experiences coloring my experience with someone totally different. My own experience with women and her tells me she was a super sweet but damaged girl, looking for love with one man in a loving relationship, without the tools to make it work out right.

Good luck 1st Timer, as once forearmed people can then only hurt us to the extent 'we' allow ; )
[/quote]

1st timer - I think you're very happy to manipulate yourself. 'Nice guys' in the UK are generally known as mugs (so perhaps it's a little different across the pond). Simple and no semantics.

When i identified a fairly textbook BPF behaviour (i.e. Your girl going OTT over your future one day and being totally different hours later  - a pattern over time you have actually identified). The first thing you did was back track away from her BPD potential. So when I say IF she isn't remotely BPD ... .then she can only be a serious player [to behave in such a flaky way without a disorder] you get upset, say i lack credibility and then accuse me of projection?

Now, I haven't insulted you (even when you totally misinterpreted my comments on how a person can 'win' against a BPD mentality) so you clearly read into things 'far' too much. If anything is being projected I feel it's you wishing she would behave differently and getting upset when you hear anything that doesn't fit your personal take on the sitch. Well, I am not an apologist for BPD behaviours or an enabler (past behaviours I find objectionable) OK?  

We're different which is fine - but watch the defensiveness. Do what you have to do and come back to this thread in a few weeks. Let's see how much more settled this girl is toward you. The 'feedback' you get from her will be your truth.

1T, don't read the book starting with chapter 15. Take the comments in context and make you moves in context.

I don't wan to read too much into a text message, but the elation in the first messages is likely related to the finding out that the rejection was over. Rejection make people crazy. Lifting it is like a gift.

The can't make plans suggests a "do I want to jump back in and get hurt"?  It could also suggest something is going on in her life - from benign to another person asked her out.

Regardless, the charge was to court her like you were starting anew. You are still in the old mindset of her needing to chase you.

A determined male would move with a little more determination and not be defeated by neutrality.

You don't know what is behind door #3. That is a product or what happened. But you can get the door open and it should reveal itself reasonably soon.

BVilly Joel is playing at Madison Square G on July 18, August 22,  (once a month for the rest of the year)... .picking an event that is at some distance and has flexibility might be a way to get the door open.

Pursue her like you are courting her. Don't wait on her to do it.   *)

A little unclear on what you are referring to here? Here texts?


Here either :)  :)o you mean HER elation that ran through her text or my elation in getting it?

If you mean hers, she knew it was over when she got my super nice email three weeks later essentially ignoring anything that happened except what she meant to me.

If you mean mine well heck again, I think we've all learned to read something into text messages it is how we communicate (and especially her and I as in 1000s going back 18 months). The girl was thrilled excited and wanting to open communication.

I read it as that or slapping self in head DUMB-A**! You chased him the first time. STOP! But it also gave me no room to move. "Busy this week reach out again if you want." "Sorry Thursday is bad" means try again. But it seemed like a full-stop. Thus my 'No worries, reach out when you can or want, I am here'.  If it were a 'stop no come' as in 'busy this week try again' I'd have simply done that. Again guessing she replied both times w/o having spoken to Mom/Sis/Therapist and they all screamed the same thing at her. So she overplayed it to the other side. And now she trapped herself; argh I CAN'T reach out that is the whole point.

Could be. Life got busy (coincidentally right after she reached out to ask me out). 'Lots happening. Will reach out when calms down/thursday not good ask again next week' etc but again it just ambigious closed door 'can't make firm plans'. Soo wannna maybe meet maybe some time?

I know that is your charge. And I don't want her to need to chase me at all. But courting her is assuming you and I are right about my 'epiphany' on my behavior. It doesn't change hers or the real possiblity that, like Forarmed pointed out, she is full on mind messing pwBPD and I'm just stepping on a land mine.

But you keep making this sound like I'm on a How do I get Girls Forum :) I know how to get girls, I've had great relationships and know how to ask out and court women/girls. I'm not trying to screw up the nerve to ask a new girl out or fix my wayward behavior of not having courted her 'right' the first time. I'm trying to avoid stepping back into a situation that might be what it seemed at first glance which was a giant massive mess I've never come close to dealing with in my life and has nearly derailed me. And as per my last message to you today, the sequence of messages puts up GIANT RED FLAGS that it could very well have been.


Argh same issue. I'm not waiting on her and wasn't. Was fully prepared after her 'let's talk soon?' to take the bull(s***) by the horns. Her last text isn't a coy 'go yonder' after the two pretty big 'come hithers' it is in my reading FULL STOP. Can't invite a girl to a Billy Joel concert who 'can't make firm plans'. If I frame this whole thing again as simply me not having courted her (when I was fully UNPREPARED AND UNWILLING TO) and her needing that or me needing to do that then it is only preparing me for intense pain and hurt if she is in fact pwBPD which there is plenty of evidence of.

That is my point here today really; if I treat her as normal if damaged girl who needs me to push on through and show her how i feel and she is pwBPD I am going to get scarred. If I treat her as pwBPD and do NC and she is normal damaged girl who needs me to push on thorugh she is going to get more hurt than she was before.

I know how to be masculine, confident, pursue, court, love, etc etc. I don't know how to begin to hanlde pwBPD which is why I ended up here. No normal rules apply. I mean I could push on through, get the date, the two week bliss and get torpedoed again by BPD so I'm looking for some way to traverse that land mine without simply walking INTO it.

So my choices now are:
- Let her sit with her feelings about my reaching out and respect her space with the 'no worries I'm here'. I get it is it not 'confident male' behavior but you know what; I think it is.

- Push past her 'firm plans' crap, ignore that is was meant to leave me no reply (other than 'ok you let me know' and push and court. Risy if BPD risky if not.

- Do Gem's idea and drop off a flower with her doorman. Changes the communicaiton dynamic, clarifies the intentions even while leaving the ball in her court.

One idea I had to 'respect' the 'can't make firm plans' if she did just box herself into a corner (having asked me out which she was not 'supposed to do' and my saying no worries just reach out when you want which may be exactly what she was trying to AVOID having just done) is to say this:

"Hi hope your Saturday is going great! I know you've got a lot going on so just letting you know I'll be at (our place) tonight for a glass or two of that Zinfandel we loved so much. Feel free to pop in and join me for a glass if your schedule allows, it would be a lovely surprise to see you"

I get to reference "our place", something I turned her on to she loved, let her know no pressure for 'firm plans' but also not making her do the work to reach out. She still has to decide to come (or not) but at least I keep the thread alive, myself in her thoughts and respect her last email.

Sorry for all the drama on this for any one following since the beginning you know I haven't been able to date for 12+ years and have been mostly surrounded by family/family illness/family-issues. trying to get my game back :| and in the interim, they invented texting, sexting, tinder, match.com and color television.

1T, this is pretty timid. You're in NYC. Man are pretty bold. Women expect it.Don't you think.

If she can't go, the image in her mind all night will be you sitting with a glass of wine looking at the door hoping she walks in. Not a good image.

Yah I think we sort of part company on the whole bold-he-man part of it here. I'm not dealing again with an ordinary situation. I'm trying to balance letting a potentially toxic insane BPD woman back into my life and a girl who might be hurt/scared and just said 'cant make firm plans'. I've been bold and strong and unavailable and take-or-leave-you and on-my-terms since I've met her. I've had the girl offer to make me be the 'owner' of her sex toys and tell HER when she could use them on herself and turn it down (don't ask :| ). I'm just saying she's had me be totally in control over when I want to see her, if I want to see her and has not been pushing for me to be MORE of that. She has been pushing me to be more vulnerable in letting her know I want to be with her, that it matters to me, that she matters to me, that I think about her, that I talk to my friends about her. I don't think that or the recent text translate into club me over the head and take me. I'm not trying to be timid I'm trying to respect she just put up a wall she might not have realized boxed her in. Or she put up a wall to keep me away. I don't think she put up a wall hoping for me to batter it down. So I can either a) let her reach out as per my last email to her (how else do you respond to 'cant' make firm plans?': meet me Friday? tough luck make the time? heh heh you said 'firm'? 'how about tentative ones?' b) give her an out with plans that are NOT firm but let her know I'd like to see her or c) ignore her and ask her out again.

I know you think this whole thing is her discovering I am confident and sure of myself, I think she had it up to here /\ with that for 18 months. First date you say to a guy 'maybe you'd like to use the sex toy on me' and he says 'maybe one day we'll see'. She's used to that. She's used to inviting and me declining, to her offering and me being blase. She is not IMHO looking for me to be manly but (if we are even on the right track with this) to show HER I want HER as much as SHE wants ME. I think the whole crux of last week is she did not buy what she considered my 'sudden' turn-around or attention. I think my nice letter to her changed a lot of that, I think my text about the park did the same. So acting blase isn't getting me anywhere. I'd posit a little vulnreability would. In any event I left with same choices; let her reach out, ignore her text and ask again, or try to balance.

Alternately I can say "You said you couldn't make firm plans but you didn't say anything about last minute ones :) I'm heading to (our place) at 9, meet me there if you can make it for a glass of the zinfandel we like so much". Same message presented a little differently, acknowledges her 'objection' to plans.  If she wants to think I'm staring at the door all night let her.  The girl has her own making up to do and while I'm not 'bring it up' I'm not forgetting it is a large part of our equation. Again not turning this into a mea culpa it was not. I'm just trying to do MY part.

On this in general as a man in NYC; yup I see the strutting 'Hey Ladies' guys all the time, the take up more space booming voice cut their personal space in half guys every night. I get some ladies like that and guess what; not the type of ladies I like OR the ones that like me. Women who do like me like quiet strength not blustering strength. Same girl got asked out by 6-2 Ironman Hedge Fund Manager, of the type you speak. One date. Hated him. He'd come over when I left to go to restroom and ask her why she didn't choose him because he could not figure out 'why the quiet guy?' and could never figure out what I "had". I'm saying if she wanted the bold arrogant guys that bar is full of them. She went in one night when I was in Cali and apparently ran into my friend, a few guys tried to hit on her and all she could to was tell my friend how special I was, how different I was, how one of a kind I was. He said to me later on 'of all the guys who come here there is only one person she has eyes for it is you".  I told her once after I left these two guys really liked her (mainly because she was gaga on me) and she said "I don't care about them I only care what YOU think about me". My point is I need to play to my strengths and what she liked, not Alpha Male Prime. She liked my Quiet Alpha Male. A LOT. That is the answer/approach I'm looking for now.

Okay, guys... .maybe 1stT left a message Saturday afternoon for her to meet at the wine bar at 9 on a Saturday night?  I am a woman ("girl" and always have been.  Dated a ton, lots of boyfriends before I married (19 years in marriage).  No trouble finding dates after divorce and then 4.5 "joyous" years with BPDbf.  BPDbf courted the heck out of me to grab my attention and get me hooked, so to speak.  I was pretty scared and standoffish after my divorce.  The men I dated before him had no clue how to Court a woman.  In fact some of the men I briefly dated had no idea how to be a gentleman and thought that being handsome, and having wealth but no class, and talking themselves up was going to make me swoon.  Not a chance. 

But yes... .BPDbf left flowers on my front porch.  He made the right gestures, showed amazing interest in me, but sadly turned out to be a bad man for me (and himself).

Had he ever suggested that we meet at a bar after one of our breakups, you can bet  that would NEVER HAVE HAPPENED.  Not if he was looking to regain my trust and find his way back into my heart.  But then again, he is undeniably BPD, and most men these days think there is no need to Court a woman.  BPD or not.

I'm not in the best of mental spaces, but all this guessing about women seems to be twisting you inside out.  I happen to know some BPD women... .dropping off simple flowers on a weekday to get a read may save you time and brain wringing.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

Gem. I think somehow the whole narrative of this story has gotten twisted somehow into how I didn't treat a woman well, need to make up for it by courting her, and need to regain HER trust. This is not the story. Whilst I appreciate Skip's inputs somehow however we keep getting back to this narrative; I need to "step up" and "be a man" and "court her" and "regain her trust".

Let me get back for a second to the "court" thing and how it came up; she and her mother and sister used to say how I needed to "court" her and "step up my game". This is when SHE was interested in ME and I was making it clear I was in no space to have a relationship. The entire paradigm was 'I'm interested in you you should court me'. That is IMHO a ton of BS for a # of reasons. For one GIVE me a reason to. Besides YOU want ME. For another respect who I am and where I am. It's like I'm some... .thing... .that she and her family decided is supposed to fill some slot they've decided on and need to act accordingly, my life or needs be damned. There is a flip-side to being 'courted' and that is treating a man with the respect he deserves so he WANTS to court you. It is not a DEBT. In any event telling a man you are intested in who has said he is not in the place in his life to have a relationship (and as you know by my story that was true on very deep levels) that he has to start courting you because you like him and your mother says so is not respectful of him at all.

I agree there are a lot of men who treat women as disposable things but there are likewise a lot of women who do that to men. "Courting" in the end doesn't mean a thing about treating a woman well or respecting her. When this same girl asked me out first time (aggressive pursuit) she made a very forward sexual statement (sex toy she bought would I use it on her, IMHO NOT the best way to get a guy to want to actually date you but I digress). I declined the next day when she told me how much she liked me and wanted a relationship. In any event my friends skewered me for not 'jumping on that'. One friend in particular gave me the whole game plan; 'take her to place x for dinner yada yada yada'. So he would indeed have 'courted' her for a night or a week or a month. For sex. Not her. And her and her mother and her sister and other women would have said 'well finally a man who knows how to treat a woman'. Yet he would be doing no such thing, he'd be BUYING her things to get to her sex toy, knowing full well he wanted nothing to do with her other than that an despite her clear communication she was looking for something that would turn into a relationship.

So who was the 'real man', who treated her like a woman? IMHO I did. I remained in contact and friendly, we even flirted but I did NOT take her up (until over a year later when we had connected some) on her (repeated) offers. In the interim I was a good friend, respectful, listened, and as mentioned invested a good deal of time and effort to help advise on and then draft a letter to her employer that helped net her a 50% raise and change her life (moved from unsafe apt in bad hood to lux apartment in great hood).

She asked me to meet her once in tears and proceeded to tell me some things about herself she was sure I would run from and I was super non judgmental and supportive and she cried because I was. She told me later how good a friend her mother said I was.

When we moved slowly into a physicial relationship, by which I mean after the very first time which basically involved foreplay with her pleasure the entire focus, I was suddenly told that her sister said I needed to 'up my game' and 'take her to dinner'. Because the months of respecting her and not taking advantage of her be damned, the amount of attention and support of her life and the impact I had on it be damned, the listening without judgment and supporting her be damned, the amount of pleasure I gave her in a single nigth be damned; I touched her vagina, I need to buy her dinner.

So let me tell you what I think about some of this nonsense about courting aka buying a woman things. I treated this woman like a person and a lady by not taking advantage of what I could have because I respected who she was and where she was and gave her what I could by supporting her and her life and who she was. She did not do likewise and nor did her family. If women think they should just 'show up' and be courted they have anoter thing coming. Or they end up with jerks who know how to play the courting game and do NOT care they want a relationship or a THING about them witness:

I didn't leave flowers and didn't make (the usual) gestures and was not in a place I could show that interest. But I turned out to be a very GOOD man who, other than not buying her dinners and flowers treated HER like a person AND a woman. So she can listen to mom and sis and wait for the dinner and miss that the night she got sick I offered to come pick her up at midnight and take her to the emergency room.

 
Gem SHE asked ME to meet her at not 'a' but at 'our' bar. Less than a whole day after I reached out to her after two months . She did so at 11am the next day so my text was on her mind all day and night and she decided on waking she wasn't even going to wait and see if I took the 'talk to you later?" bait and possibly disappear again. She had clearly been thinking about me and hoping I'd reach out and wanting to see me VERY MUCH. I replied in 30 minutes and she ignored it. I replied the next day with a firm date and time, she ignored it for for the entire day and at midnight texted me a terse 'lots happening cant make firm plans'.

This puts me in a box and in a way her in a box. I said to her 'no worries reach out when you want I am here' but that means that it is now up to her to ask me. So I decided to give her an out if that was the case and just say 'hey I know you have a lot going on but I'll be at 'our' bar tonight if you want to pop-in and join me'. At the bar she just asked me if I would like to meet her at when she was clearly into meeting me again.

I'm not trying to 'regain her trust'. If anything WE are trying to regain each other's trust. Jsut because I've realized I did thing wrong in some ways does not change the way she handled things that day in the SLIGHTEST. I bet most men would have acted worse than I on the way out AND never called her again. I don't think she EXPECTED me to call again witness how utterly happy she was that I did and her IMMEDIATE attempt for us to meet and connect.

So I was not just suggesting we 'meet at a bar'. I was trying to make what SHE made clear SHE wanted to happen happen; we meet at OUR bar. In a way that respected her entirely ambigious and open-ended 'can't make firm plans'. Because my only other choice is to leave it in court with my 'no worries reach out when you can I am here' which might not work for her or me. Please tell me my alternative (other than leaving her flowers or ignoring her wishes).

I could get into an entire BOOK on this vis-a-vis #metoo and the attempt by women to reject only 1/2 a paradigm and maintain the other. My take on it is that it is not chivalry that is dead it is feminine grace. Because most of the women who want to be 'courted' and can tell you chapter and verse how men should act and how they should treat a lady can't tell you a single thing about how women should act and treat a man and get their hair in a knot if you even suggest such things exist. Men don't just not court because they haven't been trained to they don't court in part because they've been trained NOT to and in part because you get very little for courting these days (and I don't mean sex) because women today see it as a debt not a dance.

Which would mean essentially courting her. I don't know if i WANT to court her. Again this is Skip's take that that is my 'charge'. Lest we forget the original story, this woman in many ways treated ME horribly. And right after I DID court her as the whole point of our dinner was as I told her 'let's start our relationship over and do it right; let's have our first date on Friday I'll take you out to a great restaurant and we'll take it from there'. Courted? She had no idea what that meant. She had no idea a man picks a woman up. She had no idea a man gets out of the car and comes and escorts her to the car. She had no idea a man holds the door. She had no idea how to act whern the hostess walked us to the table or that I hold her chair for her. I know how to 'court'. She like so many women of her generation thought it stopped and started with being paid for. Anyway I digress...

The point is somehow the conversation is how does 1T 'regain her trust' and 'court her like a man' and 'man up'. I'm not sure how this became the conversation. I don't need to show up on my knees with flowers, beg her forgiveness and start a courtship campaign to 'make up' for anything. Just beause I came to realize I made mistakes outside of the way she treated me, nothing in the world is happening between us if she hasn't realized she made some WHOPPERS and needs to regain MY trust. Just as when we started if she wants me to 'court' her (again not sure how this is the theme) which I don't even know she has to give me a reason to trust her and want her. Not saying chase me I'm just saying that continually making the store about my needing to 'prove' my love to her just is not in gibe with reality.

I sent her the beautiful letter a month ago. I sent her a beautiful text a week ago. She JUMPED at it and made it clear she was VERY interested in meeting me soon at the place me met. The moment I accepted she got cold and backed off and disappeared. Does that sound like anything to you? Yup, the entire relationship.



[/quote]

Hi 1stTimer,

I hear that you feel the narrative of this got off a bit and you want to correct it a bit. Fair enough. Corrections taken. We're all on the same team here! This isn't always easy to follow for me either I must admit! I'd like to take the temperature down a bit and ask a few more questions... .

May I ask? Is this woman or her mom from a different culture from you or the same culture? And if not, is is possible they have their way and in the world and you yours and you can live and let be in terms of how they seeing courting vs. how you do?

Isn't it possible, in their eyes, the mom was looking out for the daughter? And even if you think they are horribly clueless and out to get you... .um... .that they are nevertheless approaching the world from their perspective and you yours? No need for giving a lot of energy to black hole if it's pointless, ya know?

Dating is what it is. It is unbalanced, unfair, there are competing traces of various historical/social eras simultaneously operating. It is what it is. It is a larger system and we are just operating inside it, sometimes we try to resist, sometimes we get burned, sometimes we fall right in line with the messages society gives us. It's a real mixed bag for all. I emphasize "all".

I know I found dating in the US pretty confusing at times myself. You reminded me of a time when my older brother's friend had made some moves on me and my brother reacted by insisting this boy take me out. He did. My older bro would still step in, even with my SO, and set him straight. And so would my younger bro for that matter. It's just how it is in some cultures. Don't ask me why - too large a story to tell. History. :)

Let me boil this down a bit. What do you need now? Support? Encouragement? Ideas? A place to vent? What would get you through this tough time and keep things moving forward? Remember what Prince said, "“we’re all gathered here together to get through this thing called life" buddy, we're all family here.  

with compassion, pearl.

Likely my fault for my rambling ways :) I do appreciate the support as always, it just got a little ping-pongy with one person insisting I was dealing with BPD/Player who was likley coldly enjoying my discomfort and then another insisting I needed to man up and start courting this girl I wronged. I'm struggling with that balance as it is as they are two entirely different scenarios and choosing wrong can get me very hurt here.

Same culture. I don't object to courting Pearl, I like it. I like the whole man-woman thing (my asides aside) I just don't like in general how these days it HAS become one-sided as men are expected to still be men and treat women like women except when they shouldn't treat them like women and at no point should men expect to be treated like men. I only dated one woman who knew how to reciprocate and she, not surprisingly, was European.

Anyway it was not a difference in how we all saw courting. I'm trying to clarify that my ENTIRE issue with her was that from the start she did not respect or care what my limitations were (I've spelled out in my last spew just how horrid circumstances were in my life) it was just what she needed from me that mattered. "Courting" a man would include noticing where he is, who he is, what he needs no? That is what makes a man want to 'court' you; you bring something to his life. Not a body, not a face, not sex. You make him want to want you in his life and he then shows you he does. Simply formula. She just started with (literally) "I like you you should ask me out" or "I like you you need to court me".  She ignored everything I said was ready for and where I came from to pursue what she wanted, and her mother/sister (according to her of course) pushed me to make the gestures she and they wanted to show her I wanted to give her what she wanted that I wasn't ready for. Make sense? It doesn't make a man feel wanted or known or noticed or cared for or WANT to court.  Telling a man you know lost his last love because he lost his career/money and she left him 'are you going to buy us a house when you make it?' is not sensitive.  Telling a man who has told you the horrors of the last ten years in NY and how he needs to move to get a fresh start and live in peace and joy without reminders of searching for  his dad in the streets that he has to stay because your job is here and you haven't even slept with him is not caring about him it is caring about yourself. Telling him he needs to start courting you when he is telling you he is not ready to date yet is not caring about him.

Yes of course. They wanted me to want and court her because she wanted to be wanted and courted. I don't blame them for wanting to make sure I was treating her right and not just 'using her'. My position was since that is where I was and I was giving greatly anyway, that they might take the perspective that this man came along who treated their daughter/sister with the utmost respect, who did NOT take advantage of her sexually as most men would have, who took his time to listen to her w/o judgment, to contribute greatly to improving her financial situation and very life, that was attentive and caring in bed and out, that offered to take her to the emergency room when she was sick, etc. In other words, notice that you have a really good man in your life, fancy dinners aside. If I were her brother or father I'd have said 'don't listen to your mom, hold on to that man, men don't treat you like that unless they CARE for you and if you give him the space to open his heart he will and you'll get all the courting you can handle' There are plenty of other men who'd wine her and dine her and care not a whit for her and be nowhere to be found when she needed to be taken care of, listened to, supported and wouldn't care a whit about her pleasure or life.

In any event, this still gets boiled down to courting :) which is not the issue between us. YES I needed to at some point acknowledge there was more, yes I needed to acknowledge the things she did as a woman for me, I get I dropped the ball there. But this whole debacle doesn't boil down to that.

I don't know if that is quite true these days. I believe as I've said women have managed to implement 1/2 a paradigm or reject 1/2 a paradigm if you will. it makes dating horrendously confusing for men and in fact very unsatisfying.
Got it. But you know what doesn't happen anymore? The sister doesn't jump in and tell the girl how she should treat the brother. Because that would be 'sexist' to expect a woman to act like a woman and treat a man they way a man deserves to be treated. In fact, just the opposite. I grew up with three sisters. If one of my girlfriends got up to get me a beer they'd SCREAM at her "You aren't his slave! He can get his own beer!".  Naturally they'd also make sure I walked her home :| Imagine if I'd done that with their boyfriends? ":)on't walk her home you aren't her SLAVE!" ":)on't pay for her dinner let her pay for YOUR Dinner!". We have at least 2 generations of women raised just like this; hackles raised at the slightest suggestion there is any way for a woman to act and any way to treat a man who are yet somehow 100% clear on how men should act and treat ladies. Again it makes for a very unsatisying dating experience for men raised to treat women like women.


I appreciate it pearl I just dont know. What I do need to do is step away from the 'I messed up I need to court her' because I/we forget just how hurtful/disturbing her behavior was. IF we get back to a place we can be together I can treat her the way I planned on treating her when we agreed to be together; with my arms down and embracing fully what we had and giving her all I had to give as a man, a partner and a friend.

I'm doubting she has done any of the work I have since we split. Where is her 'wow I treated you so bad I realized why can we try again?' I know I know I'm not supposed to even want to hear that or discuss it with her just let her know I understand and get her but where IS it? So where would that leave us? I'm really not sure on my next move, I'm really not sure why this has me so wrapped up. I do know the texts at first made my heart soar and then crash as they are almost a microscosm of the whole relationship. If I may put them in order/context so if we discuss this further (what are the odds?  ), you can see why I am where I am:

Me (after two months of NC other than the 'nice' letter and expecting no reply, a much belated reply, or a piss-off loser):
Walking in the park
Beautiful day
it make me think of you
Hope all is well

Her (1/2 hour later):
Hi! Thank you I hope you are well too such a nice day. Talk to you later?

Super happy, no delay, opening up dialog. I've texted the girl literally 1000 times over 2 years, I can read the emotion, my first reaction was 'she is in love'. In any event seemed very happy to hear from me as if she too has been crushed by this hoping for reconnection and w/o prompting opened up talking. In other words not just 'I'm fine thanks how are you?'

Me:
That would be nice

Not wanting to read too much into the 'talk to you later?' but knowing full well it meant 'can we meet and talk?'

Her (next 11am!):
Would you like to meet at (the place me met) Soon?

Means she thought about it all day, and first thing next morning reached out to meet me, at our place, rather than wait and see if I picked up on the 'talk later?'. In other words, the girl has been hoping I'd contact her and wants to see me more thatn she wants to play hard to get,protect herself, make me work for it, etc.

Me (1/2 hour later and confused if she means soon today since she asked mid-day or "soon"
Sure! Soon as is now/brunch or soon as in later this week?

I asked because I was downtown and if she meant brunch which seemed possible given the mid-day request i needed to get uptown ASAP.

NO REPLY ALL DAY

Me (the next day to be more proactive and since clearly she did not mean brunch):
Annnd another great day. Does Thursday night work for you?

NO REPLY ALL DAY

Her (midnight same day finally)
Hi. Lots happening. Can't make firm plans.

Me (right after):
No worries. Reach out when you can or when you want, I am here.

Now if you remember the whole sitch' this is almost a microcosm of what happened. Slammed over the head when I accept the come hither. Lucy/Charlie Brown/Football. Entire tone changed. Door closed AND ambiguously in fact it is a mirror of "I can't commit" after asking me to. The only difference is this time instead of saying "Goddamn screw you and your come hither go yonder I'm going yonder to date!" I tried to be calm, supportive, and let her know I'm here when she wants. The thing is the 'lots happening' comment is BS. I replied to her 20 minutes after she reached out to me Pearl. Nothing came up in that timeframe to make her suddenly unavailable to me. She just ran the other way. Or set me up. Which is where I exited last time right?

So point is this does not suggest or lead to 'courting' or 'being a man'. To me it screams CAUTION because this is why I LEFT.  And I have no way back in really; ignore her 'can't make firm plans' and ask out? That is not respectful. Wait for her to contact me since I said 'reach out when you want?' That puts her back into chasing me which I gather could be the reason she backed off in the first place as she realized she was 'doing it again' (or Mom/Sis slapped her and said the same).

My issue Pearl or what I am looking for is how to traverse what are two entirely different paths here; dealing with full on BPD who is messing with me or at least going through idealize/devalue cycles on me whilst messing around with God knows who else or dealing with sweet but damaged girl whom I helped hurt through my own fears but with whom I have a real connection. Both seem possible. I'm still connected/hurting/pining after over two months to my utter shock. I go on barbecues or events and I can only think she should be at my side and the events become melancholy because of it. I got some indicaiton that she is just as hurt/connected/missing me by her texts and the speed at which she tried to reconnect. On the other hand the immediate pull back could be BPD. So which one do I assume? If I assume BPD and do NC and she is in fact hurt and scared girl with real connection I hurt her. I hurt me. I hurt US. If I assume hurt and scared girl and she is pwBPD I am walking myself into a nightmare. So you see my conundrum here. Two incompatible possibilities and if I choose wrong I hurt myself in both cases and her in one.

Now, I did draft a letter to her which I may send and send with flowers 'on her doorstep'. It is essentially a "mea culpa" and an "if you want to still see what we have I do too". Because otherwise I either sit and wait for her to make a/the move which she might be very unwilling to do a second time around or push her with texts trying to figure out exactly what to say or not to say and when and how to traverse in a text the ambiguous 'can't make firm plans' (ever?). it will end this or start this and I'd imagine would reveal which of the two I'm dealing with in any event without some protracted guessing game. I think wherever she is now I am on her mind, our past and the texts indicate that so I want to strike now or never.

I'd love if I could PM you that as the content itself is private and has nothing to do with the bettering per se, but I'd love to have a woman read it and one who understands the situation to boot. May I do that?

As I read all of your posts I’m gonna come out and say what my opinion is and you are probably not going to like it .But I’m assuming if your are posting on a public form that you kinda want to cover all angles.
So I will start with your assumptions about her intent or what she is thinking.Numerous times you’ve made up your mind that her text meant “abc” and she must have been thinking “abc” all day .You do know there is a 50% chance you are correct and 50%  she’s doing none of that? IF she does have BPD then I can link your story with mine because the way you are approaching her “I did the same thing to my ex” is gonna be a tuff one .With keeping BPD in mind , she most likely felt abandoned when you didn’t commit to her.That abandonment feeling didn’t go anywhere , and her family and friends probably got the whole speech about how awful you were to her even though it wasn’t the case 100%.
The text message: her response to your text message (this is my opinion) has to also be seen with BPD in mind.She May very well be with someone or in the process of a new relationship or the process of getting out of one who knows .But her answer to you could very well be translated to “hold on I’m not done here with the new toy ,so I’ll reach out to you when or if this doesn’t work”.Now not all woman with BPD have plan B’s,C’s,D’s But Most have a go backup plan .In a case where you were once plan A and it didn’t work out for whatever the reasons be it normal non compatibility,or BPD created fear and exidous ,you are now a plan b.
The only way you will know if this is totally not BPD related and if her as  normal  woman just needs time is to reach out once more in a nice jester way as you said flowers maybe and a little note.But afterwards if you don’t get the response at all or the opposite of what you were looking for ,my best opinion back off a bit give her room (not NC) but a few weeks of just seeing if she reaches out to you.

The last part I’m gonna say may and will annoy you but I’m gonna say it because you remind me of me when I first got here.You are analyzing her way too much , coming up with versions of what she is thinking and what’s happening in her mind,family with absolutely no clue if any of it is true or not,huge mistake to be honest .Also in final if she does have BPD it’s futile to try putting your thought pattern in her head , you just need to go with your mini plan and if it doesn’t work , take a step back and see if she comes to you.

Absolutely, and I do in fact not not like your take on it, I think most of what you say below is dead on/.


I get that too. I can only try to figure out what may be going on based on what I know of her to try to make the best possible reply. I can't assume she 100% is but I can try to get to the most likely scenario. It's all we can do in any scenarios in our lives (make the best analysis we can based on the information at hand, our experience and sometimes our gut). I do however (obviously) know her better than anyone here, and i don't think my gut response to her text as her being over the top happy is off.


In fact I did commit to her and 'officially' over dinner as she demanded. She abandoned me the moment I did which is how we got here (me telling her off and exiting her life)

Could be. Could be an element. I'm still going with, based on our history, that even if that is an element she backed off the MOMENT she reached out and I replied because it is exactly what she did 'wrong' the first time; jumped at the chance to date me and pursued me/asked me out. Remember she didn't reply to me and say 'I'm well, can't connect now" or "I'm well, call me one day". She asked me out almost immediately and then went silent when I accepted and withdrew when I followed-up. That tells me she is kicking herself for moving too fast since any other guy would have been there when she asked Sunday morning.

In the end seems best. I do get pressure to reach out and court her but don't think that is the answer. My only reticence with giving her room is if she did back off because she realized she was chasing again and I needed to. That puts us at an impasse and makes not contacting counter-productive. So maybe Pearl's flower idea is a good one; let's me establish some 'courting' and still give her the space.

Thanks for the input

I am with the experience that has been shared.  Its all counter intuitive.   If you think you should do something, check w all of us here.  You dont have to reinvent the wheel.  Access the wealth of information here.  You can learn from our mistakes!

Blessings to you,  j