Sent her a text after 9 weeks Need advice on how to reconnect in a constructive way.

[Gemsforeyes]

Ooops!  Sorry, 1stT.  Point received.  Sincerely didn't mean to trigger.

Gemsforeyes

[1stTimer]

Ooops!  Sorry, 1stT.  Point received.  Sincerely didn't mean to trigger.

Gemsforeyes

Oh man no need to apologize Gem your idea was beautiful and appreciated. I just still sometimes get triggered by the whole 'he needs to court you' when the girl was aggresively chasing me and ignoring my boundaries. Yep eventually she won me over with her support and caring but still. I'm happy to court her now when *I* am ready and have space for it. But seriously no worries, I liked your idea. I just don't think my main concern is REALLY 'is she in serious relationship'. I've actually talked to a few actively dating women I know in that age range (25-45) and to a person the say there is no way they'd have reached out to me if they'd ended up in serious relationship and if they had they'd have made sure it was far more distancing and cool, and they'd have a) not invited me out and b) likely would have followed up with the news. I agree. So far consensus from 'the girls' is she was super happy to hear from me, got ahead of herself asking me out, and backed off and my reply was great. For whatever that is worth Damn it was was easier not dating for a decade.

[1stTimer]

One thing I remembered as I got into a more 'calm place' is that her job often requires her to accommodate large parties of incoming guests and business associates which becomes a sort of day and night thing which could clearly explain 'lots happening' and not being able to commit to any night schedule. Funny how clear things get when you are not spinning around. Gotta say man I am in SUCH a good place on all this!

[1stTimer]

Well tonight was the night I invited her to 'our place' where she reached out and asked me, unprompted, if I'd like to meet her soon (to which, after all that, got the 'lots happening can't make firm plans'. I'm going to go and see if she shows up anyway. Gotta say I'm kinda losing steam on the whole thing though, sort of feel like I'm just going through the motions. I guess that is a good thing?

[Skip]

Gotta say I'm kinda losing steam on the whole thing though, sort of feel like I'm just going through the motions.

You are too used to the drama.    Things are as good as they could be right now, all things considered.

Are you going on the off chance of seeing her there?  What if you do see her?  What if she doesn' show.  I don't see a win in any of that.

Play the long game.

[1stTimer]

Are you going on the off chance of seeing her there?  What if you do see her?  What if she doesn' show.  I don't see a win in any of that.

I'm going because I go most nights these days. Home too quiet so I go have 1-2 glasses and often talk to that woman who is so nice/supportive/great/gorgeous and tells me how much she adores me  No romance there but nice to talk to great women who think you are great.

Play the long game.

I guess I'm saying I see less and less of a long game.  All that burning need/pain sort of burned off with a) your help in my removing any need to know/understand/blame b) her kind and even eager replies. I think in the end even if we reconnected I'd do it for the wrong reasons; she is great because she supports me and thinks I am great. No doubt those are good things to acknowledge when they happen and not take for granted, and no DOUBT I need that in my life big time. But it is no basis for a relationship or love. I did great thing for her and supported her but never really loved/wanted her. Which is where I was when I was with her. My thinking is it would be nice to reconnect, let her know a few things if the opportunity arises and leave it at that or friends (which is where we started). And this time I'll be a lot better at acknowledgement.

Naturally all bets are off when we see each other. If we see each other. Which is now entirely in her ballpark.

[1stTimer]

You are too used to the drama.    Things are as good as they could be right now, all things considered.

Because it is all drama. In fact it is the same drama I arrived here with.

"Hi! I'm so happy to hear from you let's talk!" 2 minutes after I reached out followed by the unprompted ":)o you want to meet at "our place" soon?" followed by the terse "Lots happening. Can't make firm plans" after a two-day silence in reply to my affirmative to her inviation followed by radio silence  IS drama. It is her getting her fix and me getting hurt.

One might say it is an almost perfect mirroring and summary of the original relationship. Even down to the ambiguous "can't commit" at the end in response to my invitation to HER invitation to ask her. I don't find that 'good as they could be" at all. I find her reply a carefully constructed one to boot. Not "family in town/work-crazy this week how about next one instead?" or "June is a whirlwind (you know my crazy boss!) can we wait for July?". Hers is terse, 180 degree change in temperature, and really leaves no opening and makes me feel, again, I've asked someone who didn't want something for it (even though they asked me to ask!). Can't make firm plans... .ever? In fact I have so many more important things in my life now, I can't imagine any I'd end up not changing any plans I made with you for them at the last minute? You've ceased to be important enough to me to ink in anything ever?

You might not find this manipulative drama and believe I read too much into words. But words matter and her words and tone in action in the first two were as crystal clear as the ones in her "final one". I wasn't 'reaching' or 'hoping' on her first reply or reading too much into it; this girl who'd planned her entire future around me two months earlier (and possibly for a year or more before that) replied to me w/o hesitation and with joy and asked me if I wanted to talk when I reached out after two months of silence. Didn't make me sweat it for a week, didn't play cool, didn't protect her feelings. Same girl couldn't wait an entire day for me to take the bait before following up asking ME out to the place we met, clearly having been as eager as I was to see her to see me and not even willing to wait for me to take the invitation offered. Those are all good if not great things. They are designed to make me feel great and designed for me to put MY guard down. And the last reply is just as carefully designed; to slam the door back in my face. 1 hour to get back to me with an ecstatic reply, 1 day to ask me out since I didn't bite the first time, and a 2 day wait to blow me off when I said yes yes yes? In my book that is called Manipulative Drama, all caps intended.

If I were where I was a few weeks back before processing this (i.e. if I hadn't come here) in all honesty Skip I'd be an utter mess now.  As it is I'm just a little unhappy as it removed for me the slightest hope at reconciliation which I was 50/50 on anyway.

The problem for me is I'm still just stuck in the 'girlfriend' mindset since she'd opened me up to that and all the loss that entails. I was on friend's roof deck with his girlfriend watching the summer solstice sunset over a bottle or wine and realizing this would have been "our" first Double Date since we'd discussed doing so with him just before the excrement hit the rotary cooling device.  I was at a beach barbecue, everyone eating and laughing and the waves crashing CRUSHED she was not there. I've done that for summer after summer and happily enjoyed those "alone" since I'd managed to keep that door closed. These and 1000 other aren't things that would be a 'loss' or melancholy occasions without my having been sucked into the whole 'ask me to be your girlfriend ok be my girlfriend I don't want to be your girlfriend' lunacy in the first place. And that doesn't make me sad it makes me mad.

[Forearmed]

"Hi! I'm so happy to hear from you let's talk!" 2 minutes after I reached out followed by the unprompted ":)o you want to meet at "our place" soon?" followed by the terse "Lots happening. Can't make firm plans" after a two-day silence in reply to my affirmative to her inviation followed by radio silence  IS drama. It is her getting her fix and me getting hurt.
[/quote]

Man... .I've been through this loop with my ex- waif while we were trying to be 'friends'. Translate: (at least in her case, ) You can remain an orbiter IF you play along with anything i want to do - inc. radio silences / not answering texts in a decent time /asking ME meet on dates and then finding all manner of creative reasons not being able to commit, blah, blah. Even with my knowledge of BPD patience ran out at withing a couple of weeks.  Once you lose that honeymoon 'angel' you increasingly see the pathology unveiling. If we understand, that post -honeymoon period, they are naturally devaluing you, you can see why so many start to play games. 1) They have enough evidence to know you like them and 2) They are now 'coldly' enjoying sitting back and seeing how you respond to their manipulations. If you're devalued enough they'll show no respect at all and if you call them on their crap you're obviously going to be bounced for being far too much hassle (say hello to the needy /stalker / abuser accusations  ; )

I even recently met a woman, vibed really welll and she was very keen. Spoke on the Tuesday regarding doing a Fri or Sat date. Told her couldn't do Fri (but would get back to her Thursday re: Saturday). By the time i got back to her Thursday she had already sorted out Saturday (but didn't tell me first).

N.B. Beforehand I'd heard her tale of moving in a boyfriend after a month (who turned into a nutter) / how she was wiling to have a threesome to save her old marriage/ how anything goes in a relationship sexually when she likes someone. 

We haven't spoken since... .I haven't the stamina for the BS and only want 'healthy' and further head f... s hold ZERO appeal for me, .

[Forearmed]

In fact, I'd go as far as to say the only way to really 'win' in the date a BPD game (and I'm talking walf versions as the standard types is far too much hassle for me) is not to actually care / be too bothered about the particular person. Then it doesn't matter how often they dysregulate or when they eventually decide not to see you anymore!

And, of course, if it becomes clear they're now kind of 'out there' hunting you won't see them at that point anyway : )  

[1stTimer]

In fact, I'd go as far as to say the only way to really 'win' in the date a BPD game (and I'm talking walf versions as the standard types is far too much hassle for me) is not to actually care / be too bothered about the particular person. Then it doesn't matter how often they dysregulate or when they eventually decide not to see you anymore!

What is a 'waif BPD'?

I have no interest in either being in the or winning the Date a BPD Game. Again I'm coming at this from the POV that where I considered this a possible BPD it was two conflicted people's stuff hitting each other. In other words, giving her the benefit of the doubt of not being BPD, devaluing.

Lastly in any dating game I have no interest in caring or not being bothered. It is how many people date anyway, and in fact how I 'dated her' at first. In the end it is really no fun for either party. If you are with someone who rewards you for 'not caring' and not being available you are in a dance that just leads nowhere. My best relationship was with a woman who loved beng adored and loved adoring. Man that is something else. Having to pretend to her I did NOT adore her to get me to adore her would have been exhausting and unsatisfying.

[1stTimer]

1) They have enough evidence to know you like them and 2) They are now 'coldly' enjoying sitting back and seeing how you respond to their manipulations. If you're devalued enough they'll show no respect at all and if you call them on their crap you're obviously going to be bounced for being far too much hassle (say hello to the needy /stalker / abuser accusations  ;

Man I hope you are wrong on this. Not sure if you ever read my original post it was 'Was this BPD?" and I'm still unsure it was as I played a pretty big role in things.  I did totally call her on her crap and left about two months ago (if you didn't read  the whole things quick summary is she heavily pursued, I kept distance, she asked me to commit to full on real future-based relationship with official/grand gesture, did, next day she said not ready for a realtionship, I flipped on her and said I was going to go date).

I less read this as BPD devaluing than super-duper-confused woman. I get pissed at it and cll it manipulation in my worse moods. Unless she is insane and evil her replies to me were genuinely thrilled and her last one was her pulling back. I believe out of either "man I did it AGAIN I chased him and should have let him chase me" (the ENTIRE issue in our dance) or "man what am I getting myself into again".

If you are right and this is more BP that is horribly depressing. In any event after she did the 'can't make firm plans' after I agreed to meet her at 'our place' I said "No worries. Reach out when you can or when you want, I am here". I did THAT in best faith based on our prior relationship and some work I did here getting to how my treatment of her made her feel devalued, invalidated, unappreciated,insecure. If she takes it as a reason to show no respect bully for her. Who wants a relationship with someone who takes being treated WELL as an invitation to treat you like crap? Despite my 'manipulative!' reply this am I'll still treat this as a scared woman who was hurt in her own way circling back to me (perhaps) vs a BPD devaluing me. Opens me up to more I guess but I'd prefer to 'dance like no one is watching' if you get my meaning.

[Forearmed]

1stTimer - There's honestly no need to read too much into my last comment

Put simply, many recognise dating a BPD is one of the hardest path to relationship success and by far tends to results in a bad situation for a non. Hence my statement re. if 'someone' doesn't care than they can metaphorically 'win'.

No one said it needs to be a game - even if unfortunately that is what BPD's by default, often end up playing - and it's not fun. 

The good thing about this forum is you can see different perspectives (that won't always say what you might want to hear) and either take certain likely realities on board or choose not to. The other thing is you can come back in future and see whether they were on the ball or not too.       

[Forearmed]

1st timer - Just seen your last statement : ) I have been there and (for me) i had to decide my walf/ quiet BPD  (they internalize rather than rage - you get silent treatments/ withdrawing / passive aggression after the honeymoon period) was never going to stop being super -confused.

Again, put simply. You get close to them ... .their internal triggers can easily say I am feeling engulfed. And that can be after a great night out where it's been perfect and they have loved you to death! All too much for me in the end my friend... .as ending up in a situation where less and less made sense - while I was being treated with increasing inconsideration [devalued] wasn't my idea of fun.

She got well 'told' and I'm out of the situation : )

[1stTimer]

1stTimer - There's honestly no need to read too much into my last comment

Put simply, many recognise dating a BPD is one of the hardest path to relationship success and by far tends to results in a bad situation for a non. Hence my statement re. if 'someone' doesn't care than they can metaphorically 'win'.        

Hi Forearmed was not trying to give offense, just give you my perspective on what I am willing to do or not, not a judgment on what you do or not. In general I don't like acting like I don't care, and in fact is something of a trigger for me I guess since I caused a lot of trouble in this very relationship precisely because I held back and did just that and it caused not only me/us pain but her pain as well. So I wrap that knowledge into my responses to her and try not to judge her as BPD or Waif or as playing mind games with me. I get where you are coming from with your ex-waif and feel for you. I'm just trying go give her benefit of doubt and not assume the worst.

[1stTimer]

Again, put simply. You get close to them ... .their internal triggers can easily say I am feeling engulfed. And that can be after a great night out where it's been perfect and they have loved you to death! All too much for me in the end my friend... .as ending up in a situation where less and less made sense - while I was being treated with increasing inconsideration [devalued] wasn't my idea of fun.

She got well 'told' and I'm out of the situation : )

It would be interested to compare notes some time  as I came here precisely to see if I was dealing with BPD or... .myself   I didn't really get to a devalue stage is the thing (as far as I know).

Your replies put me in a funny spot as after dealing with some others here I've gotten to more of a 'mea culpa' on this where I need to reach out, heal, court. Then I read your replies and feel like I am being a total fool. Hard to know how to proceed. Scared girl I made worse being unavailable/unready and hurt badly when I told her off? BPD girl who is unfaithful, has a stable of men she texts/f-s/holds on a string about 'you are the one I'm a one-woman man' while messing with all of their heads/souls/bodies? It is a horrid two-headed coin to wonder about because choosing the wrong means you deal with that side of the coin in the utterly and entirely wrong way.

[1stTimer]

You get close to them ... .their internal triggers can easily say I am feeling engulfed. And that can be after a great night out where it's been perfect and they have loved you to death!

Not just on a night she loved me to death, on a night she planned basically our entire future after I agreed to be a couple. Not not *me* planning our future and her running. Me just agreeing to be a couple. Her planning it all as if we'd gotten engaged. That is... .self-engulfment. Man I just said "yes let's agree we are in a real relationship and see what we really have here". I wasn't shopping for new beds, figuring out where we'd leave, what our pet names should be, what our 'official' date night would be, announcements to extended family about our relationship, figuring out if she would keep her job or not (she would) and talking about how we had 'a lifetime to figure each other out'.

I'd get if I triggered here if I said that or in fact said that to ANY woman after we decided/realized we were in a 'real' relationship. But trigger yourself?

[Forearmed]

Times  : ) No need to feel like a fool you're a 'good' guy and that causes problems for the worst BPDs ('nice' guy - their favourites - don't get annoyed / angry ; )  

I have knowledge of BPD and even I (at a arms length sitch had to take stock of how messy it can get!) I live with my ex-  partner (for now)  so that didn't help my BPD waif, tbf. That aside, living independently she wouldn't have got half the patience i showed.  

So you're aware, a key BPD feature is to get carried away emotionally with someone they like, get close... .and then suddenly 'feel engulfed / suffocated/ trapped /that they will be hurt. So at the beginning of a relationship their positive [over]emotions are overriding their fears. Then as it progresses the fear starts to manifest in the behaviours you speak of. Many won't stick around to let them cycle through the 'idealise / devalue /discard' phases.

BTW, don't beat yourself up at the incongruency of her reactions. If you've had enough normal relationship circs you very quickly realise something isn't right i.e. when even standing your ground reasonably becomes a major problem to her.  

[1stTimer]

Times  : ) No need to feel like a fool you're a 'good' guy and that causes problems for the worst BPDs ('nice' guy - their favourites - don't get annoyed / angry ; )  

No problem being called a 'Nice Guy' I am and proud of it, it isn't a badge of weakness to me. I'm also a strong/centered/boundary one as well. Usually women say something like 'so strong and sweet' which I think is a good/attractive combo.

That said I did talk to an expert in BPD especially BPD/Nice Guy. She said Nice Guys dont recognize the problem until too late because the qualities that BPD women project on them ARE their qualities so they think the BPD person actually sees them.

If you've had enough normal relationship circs you very quickly realise something isn't right i.e. when even standing your ground reasonably becomes a major problem to her.  

I've had some very nice relationships with some great women, this one threw me for a loop with very incongruous behavior that send me in a tailspin (one comment in particular). I didn't like her behavior from the outset and rejected sex/relationship with her. She sort of wore me down :| when I started believing it was about me and she in fact treated me really well. See you have me talking as if she is/was BPD again and not sure I buy it.  One thing I slammed her with on 'the way out' (the day she told me she wasn't ready for a relationship after months of intense pressure and the night after an Official Ask Date she put enormous pressure on me to do ) was "I KNEW you were like this when we met, I KNEW you were full of s*** and that is why I never wanted to date you". Ouch. Oh and "thank you for opening my heart to dating again I'm going to go date". Ouch. Ouch.

[Forearmed]

LOL! Trust me, 'nice guys' (major codependents, IMO) don't call them out at all easily. They will typically bend over backwards to lose their damn selves in keeping their princess happy! 'Good' guys are decent guys simply unafraid to call out BS. Just my take : )

I don't subscribe to needing to be a clinical psychologist to diagnose certain things as anyone can learn about human psychology / twinned with life experience. In my solid experience of women in general, at best, she's a serious player and, at worst (esp. if the behaviour seems innate) well on the 'spectrum'.

Good luck 1st Timer, as once forearmed people can then only hurt us to the extent 'we' allow ; )

[1stTimer]

LOL! Trust me, 'nice guys' (major codependents, IMO) don't call them out at all easily. They will typically bend over backwards to lose their damn selves in keeping their princess happy! 'Good' guys are decent guys simply unafraid to call out BS. Just my take : )

Semantics on naming. I in fact always called her on her BS from day one, and even in the final cycle. She never liked it. I even called her on it when she'd get mad at me for calling her on it and demand an apology.

In my solid experience of women in general, at best, she's a serious player

I'll have to say you've lost some credibility here to make that kind of judgment with little evidence. I live in Manhattan and lived for years in San Francisco. I knew and know and have been friends with many MANY female 'players' that wrapped men around their fingers and did so out of the sheer mean joy of it (and the free dinners of course). I can spot them a mile away. I've spent hours listening to them talk about how and why they do what they do and the pleasure they get from it. This girl was not a player and nothing close to it. I think you are doing some projecting here.  About the only thing once could glean from anything I said is that she may have BPD tendencies and got terrified (or terrified herself) when she finally got what she wanted (a serious relationship with me). Nothing I said about her and nothing about my experience with her inidcates at all 'player'. Damaged, scared, hurt, yup.  And everything about everything she did, even if last texts play right into that. If you feel it is being an 'LOL nice guy' to not 'see' that it was a 'player' move that is your right. I don't buy it, I don't see it, I don't think it. I think it is your bad experiences coloring my experience with someone totally different. My own experience with women and her tells me she was a super sweet but damaged girl, looking for love with one man in a loving relationship, without the tools to make it work out right.

Good luck 1st Timer, as once forearmed people can then only hurt us to the extent 'we' allow ; )
[/quote]

[Forearmed]

1st timer - I think you're very happy to manipulate yourself. 'Nice guys' in the UK are generally known as mugs (so perhaps it's a little different across the pond). Simple and no semantics.

When i identified a fairly textbook BPF behaviour (i.e. Your girl going OTT over your future one day and being totally different hours later  - a pattern over time you have actually identified). The first thing you did was back track away from her BPD potential. So when I say IF she isn't remotely BPD ... .then she can only be a serious player [to behave in such a flaky way without a disorder] you get upset, say i lack credibility and then accuse me of projection?

Now, I haven't insulted you (even when you totally misinterpreted my comments on how a person can 'win' against a BPD mentality) so you clearly read into things 'far' too much. If anything is being projected I feel it's you wishing she would behave differently and getting upset when you hear anything that doesn't fit your personal take on the sitch. Well, I am not an apologist for BPD behaviours or an enabler (past behaviours I find objectionable) OK?  

We're different which is fine - but watch the defensiveness. Do what you have to do and come back to this thread in a few weeks. Let's see how much more settled this girl is toward you. The 'feedback' you get from her will be your truth.

[Skip]

You are too used to the drama.    Things are as good as they could be right now, all things considered.

"Hi! I'm so happy to hear from you let's talk!" 2 minutes after I reached out followed by the unprompted ":)o you want to meet at "our place" soon?" followed by the terse "Lots happening. Can't make firm plans" after a two-day silence in reply to my affirmative to her inviation followed by radio silence  IS drama. It is her getting her fix and me getting hurt.

1T, don't read the book starting with chapter 15. Take the comments in context and make you moves in context.

I don't wan to read too much into a text message, but the elation in the first messages is likely related to the finding out that the rejection was over. Rejection make people crazy. Lifting it is like a gift.

The can't make plans suggests a "do I want to jump back in and get hurt"?  It could also suggest something is going on in her life - from benign to another person asked her out.

Regardless, the charge was to court her like you were starting anew. You are still in the old mindset of her needing to chase you.

A determined male would move with a little more determination and not be defeated by neutrality.

You don't know what is behind door #3. That is a product or what happened. But you can get the door open and it should reveal itself reasonably soon.

BVilly Joel is playing at Madison Square G on July 18, August 22,  (once a month for the rest of the year)... .picking an event that is at some distance and has flexibility might be a way to get the door open.

Pursue her like you are courting her. Don't wait on her to do it.   

[1stTimer]

1T, don't read the book starting with chapter 15. Take the comments in context and make you moves in context.

A little unclear on what you are referring to here? Here texts?

I don't wan to read too much into a text message, but the elation in the first messages is likely related to the finding out that the rejection was over. Rejection make people crazy. Lifting it is like a gift.

Here either  :)o you mean HER elation that ran through her text or my elation in getting it?

If you mean hers, she knew it was over when she got my super nice email three weeks later essentially ignoring anything that happened except what she meant to me.

If you mean mine well heck again, I think we've all learned to read something into text messages it is how we communicate (and especially her and I as in 1000s going back 18 months). The girl was thrilled excited and wanting to open communication.

The can't make plans suggests a "do I want to jump back in and get hurt"?

I read it as that or slapping self in head DUMB-A**! You chased him the first time. STOP! But it also gave me no room to move. "Busy this week reach out again if you want." "Sorry Thursday is bad" means try again. But it seemed like a full-stop. Thus my 'No worries, reach out when you can or want, I am here'.  If it were a 'stop no come' as in 'busy this week try again' I'd have simply done that. Again guessing she replied both times w/o having spoken to Mom/Sis/Therapist and they all screamed the same thing at her. So she overplayed it to the other side. And now she trapped herself; argh I CAN'T reach out that is the whole point.

It could also suggest something is going on in her life - from benign to another person asked her out.

Could be. Life got busy (coincidentally right after she reached out to ask me out). 'Lots happening. Will reach out when calms down/thursday not good ask again next week' etc but again it just ambigious closed door 'can't make firm plans'. Soo wannna maybe meet maybe some time?

Regardless, the charge was to court her like you were starting anew. You are still in the old mindset of her needing to chase you.

I know that is your charge. And I don't want her to need to chase me at all. But courting her is assuming you and I are right about my 'epiphany' on my behavior. It doesn't change hers or the real possiblity that, like Forarmed pointed out, she is full on mind messing pwBPD and I'm just stepping on a land mine.

A determined male would move with a little more determination and not be defeated by neutrality.

But you keep making this sound like I'm on a How do I get Girls Forum I know how to get girls, I've had great relationships and know how to ask out and court women/girls. I'm not trying to screw up the nerve to ask a new girl out or fix my wayward behavior of not having courted her 'right' the first time. I'm trying to avoid stepping back into a situation that might be what it seemed at first glance which was a giant massive mess I've never come close to dealing with in my life and has nearly derailed me. And as per my last message to you today, the sequence of messages puts up GIANT RED FLAGS that it could very well have been.

Pursue her like you are courting her. Don't wait on her to do it.  

Argh same issue. I'm not waiting on her and wasn't. Was fully prepared after her 'let's talk soon?' to take the bull(s** by the horns. Her last text isn't a coy 'go yonder' after the two pretty big 'come hithers' it is in my reading FULL STOP. Can't invite a girl to a Billy Joel concert who 'can't make firm plans'. If I frame this whole thing again as simply me not having courted her (when I was fully UNPREPARED AND UNWILLING TO) and her needing that or me needing to do that then it is only preparing me for intense pain and hurt if she is in fact pwBPD which there is plenty of evidence of.

That is my point here today really; if I treat her as normal if damaged girl who needs me to push on through and show her how i feel and she is pwBPD I am going to get scarred. If I treat her as pwBPD and do NC and she is normal damaged girl who needs me to push on thorugh she is going to get more hurt than she was before.

I know how to be masculine, confident, pursue, court, love, etc etc. I don't know how to begin to hanlde pwBPD which is why I ended up here. No normal rules apply. I mean I could push on through, get the date, the two week bliss and get torpedoed again by BPD so I'm looking for some way to traverse that land mine without simply walking INTO it.

So my choices now are:
- Let her sit with her feelings about my reaching out and respect her space with the 'no worries I'm here'. I get it is it not 'confident male' behavior but you know what; I think it is.

- Push past her 'firm plans' crap, ignore that is was meant to leave me no reply (other than 'ok you let me know' and push and court. Risy if BPD risky if not.

- Do Gem's idea and drop off a flower with her doorman. Changes the communicaiton dynamic, clarifies the intentions even while leaving the ball in her court.

[1stTimer]

Pursue her like you are courting her. Don't wait on her to do it.   

One idea I had to 'respect' the 'can't make firm plans' if she did just box herself into a corner (having asked me out which she was not 'supposed to do' and my saying no worries just reach out when you want which may be exactly what she was trying to AVOID having just done) is to say this:

"Hi hope your Saturday is going great! I know you've got a lot going on so just letting you know I'll be at (our place) tonight for a glass or two of that Zinfandel we loved so much. Feel free to pop in and join me for a glass if your schedule allows, it would be a lovely surprise to see you"

I get to reference "our place", something I turned her on to she loved, let her know no pressure for 'firm plans' but also not making her do the work to reach out. She still has to decide to come (or not) but at least I keep the thread alive, myself in her thoughts and respect her last email.

Sorry for all the drama on this for any one following since the beginning you know I haven't been able to date for 12+ years and have been mostly surrounded by family/family illness/family-issues. trying to get my game back :| and in the interim, they invented texting, sexting, tinder, match.com and color television.

[Skip]

"Hi hope your Saturday is going great! I know you've got a lot going on so just letting you know I'll be at (our place) tonight for a glass or two of that Zinfandel we loved so much. Feel free to pop in and join me for a glass if your schedule allows, it would be a lovely surprise to see you"

1T, this is pretty timid. You're in NYC. Man are pretty bold. Women expect it.Don't you think.

If she can't go, the image in her mind all night will be you sitting with a glass of wine looking at the door hoping she walks in. Not a good image.

[1stTimer]

1T, this is pretty timid. You're in NYC. Man are pretty bold. Women expect it.Don't you think.

If she can't go, the image in her mind all night will be you sitting with a glass of wine looking at the door hoping she walks in. Not a good image.

Yah I think we sort of part company on the whole bold-he-man part of it here. I'm not dealing again with an ordinary situation. I'm trying to balance letting a potentially toxic insane BPD woman back into my life and a girl who might be hurt/scared and just said 'cant make firm plans'. I've been bold and strong and unavailable and take-or-leave-you and on-my-terms since I've met her. I've had the girl offer to make me be the 'owner' of her sex toys and tell HER when she could use them on herself and turn it down (don't ask :| ). I'm just saying she's had me be totally in control over when I want to see her, if I want to see her and has not been pushing for me to be MORE of that. She has been pushing me to be more vulnerable in letting her know I want to be with her, that it matters to me, that she matters to me, that I think about her, that I talk to my friends about her. I don't think that or the recent text translate into club me over the head and take me. I'm not trying to be timid I'm trying to respect she just put up a wall she might not have realized boxed her in. Or she put up a wall to keep me away. I don't think she put up a wall hoping for me to batter it down. So I can either a) let her reach out as per my last email to her (how else do you respond to 'cant' make firm plans?': meet me Friday? tough luck make the time? heh heh you said 'firm'? 'how about tentative ones?' b) give her an out with plans that are NOT firm but let her know I'd like to see her or c) ignore her and ask her out again.

I know you think this whole thing is her discovering I am confident and sure of myself, I think she had it up to here /\ with that for 18 months. First date you say to a guy 'maybe you'd like to use the sex toy on me' and he says 'maybe one day we'll see'. She's used to that. She's used to inviting and me declining, to her offering and me being blase. She is not IMHO looking for me to be manly but (if we are even on the right track with this) to show HER I want HER as much as SHE wants ME. I think the whole crux of last week is she did not buy what she considered my 'sudden' turn-around or attention. I think my nice letter to her changed a lot of that, I think my text about the park did the same. So acting blase isn't getting me anywhere. I'd posit a little vulnreability would. In any event I left with same choices; let her reach out, ignore her text and ask again, or try to balance.

[1stTimer]

1T, this is pretty timid. You're in NYC. Man are pretty bold. Women expect it.Don't you think.

If she can't go, the image in her mind all night will be you sitting with a glass of wine looking at the door hoping she walks in. Not a good image.

Alternately I can say "You said you couldn't make firm plans but you didn't say anything about last minute ones I'm heading to (our place) at 9, meet me there if you can make it for a glass of the zinfandel we like so much". Same message presented a little differently, acknowledges her 'objection' to plans.  If she wants to think I'm staring at the door all night let her.  The girl has her own making up to do and while I'm not 'bring it up' I'm not forgetting it is a large part of our equation. Again not turning this into a mea culpa it was not. I'm just trying to do MY part.

[1stTimer]

1T, this is pretty timid. You're in NYC. Man are pretty bold. Women expect it.Don't you think.

On this in general as a man in NYC; yup I see the strutting 'Hey Ladies' guys all the time, the take up more space booming voice cut their personal space in half guys every night. I get some ladies like that and guess what; not the type of ladies I like OR the ones that like me. Women who do like me like quiet strength not blustering strength. Same girl got asked out by 6-2 Ironman Hedge Fund Manager, of the type you speak. One date. Hated him. He'd come over when I left to go to restroom and ask her why she didn't choose him because he could not figure out 'why the quiet guy?' and could never figure out what I "had". I'm saying if she wanted the bold arrogant guys that bar is full of them. She went in one night when I was in Cali and apparently ran into my friend, a few guys tried to hit on her and all she could to was tell my friend how special I was, how different I was, how one of a kind I was. He said to me later on 'of all the guys who come here there is only one person she has eyes for it is you".  I told her once after I left these two guys really liked her (mainly because she was gaga on me) and she said "I don't care about them I only care what YOU think about me". My point is I need to play to my strengths and what she liked, not Alpha Male Prime. She liked my Quiet Alpha Male. A LOT. That is the answer/approach I'm looking for now.

[Gemsforeyes]

Okay, guys... .maybe 1stT left a message Saturday afternoon for her to meet at the wine bar at 9 on a Saturday night?  I am a woman ("girl" and always have been.  Dated a ton, lots of boyfriends before I married (19 years in marriage).  No trouble finding dates after divorce and then 4.5 "joyous" years with BPDbf.  BPDbf courted the heck out of me to grab my attention and get me hooked, so to speak.  I was pretty scared and standoffish after my divorce.  The men I dated before him had no clue how to Court a woman.  In fact some of the men I briefly dated had no idea how to be a gentleman and thought that being handsome, and having wealth but no class, and talking themselves up was going to make me swoon.  Not a chance. 

But yes... .BPDbf left flowers on my front porch.  He made the right gestures, showed amazing interest in me, but sadly turned out to be a bad man for me (and himself).

Had he ever suggested that we meet at a bar after one of our breakups, you can bet  that would NEVER HAVE HAPPENED.  Not if he was looking to regain my trust and find his way back into my heart.  But then again, he is undeniably BPD, and most men these days think there is no need to Court a woman.  BPD or not.

I'm not in the best of mental spaces, but all this guessing about women seems to be twisting you inside out.  I happen to know some BPD women... .dropping off simple flowers on a weekday to get a read may save you time and brain wringing.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[1stTimer]

Had he ever suggested that we meet at a bar after one of our breakups, you can bet  that would NEVER HAVE HAPPENED.  Not if he was looking to regain my trust and find his way back into my heart

Gem. I think somehow the whole narrative of this story has gotten twisted somehow into how I didn't treat a woman well, need to make up for it by courting her, and need to regain HER trust. This is not the story. Whilst I appreciate Skip's inputs somehow however we keep getting back to this narrative; I need to "step up" and "be a man" and "court her" and "regain her trust".

Let me get back for a second to the "court" thing and how it came up; she and her mother and sister used to say how I needed to "court" her and "step up my game". This is when SHE was interested in ME and I was making it clear I was in no space to have a relationship. The entire paradigm was 'I'm interested in you you should court me'. That is IMHO a ton of BS for a # of reasons. For one GIVE me a reason to. Besides YOU want ME. For another respect who I am and where I am. It's like I'm some... .thing... .that she and her family decided is supposed to fill some slot they've decided on and need to act accordingly, my life or needs be damned. There is a flip-side to being 'courted' and that is treating a man with the respect he deserves so he WANTS to court you. It is not a DEBT. In any event telling a man you are intested in who has said he is not in the place in his life to have a relationship (and as you know by my story that was true on very deep levels) that he has to start courting you because you like him and your mother says so is not respectful of him at all.

I agree there are a lot of men who treat women as disposable things but there are likewise a lot of women who do that to men. "Courting" in the end doesn't mean a thing about treating a woman well or respecting her. When this same girl asked me out first time (aggressive pursuit) she made a very forward sexual statement (sex toy she bought would I use it on her, IMHO NOT the best way to get a guy to want to actually date you but I digress). I declined the next day when she told me how much she liked me and wanted a relationship. In any event my friends skewered me for not 'jumping on that'. One friend in particular gave me the whole game plan; 'take her to place x for dinner yada yada yada'. So he would indeed have 'courted' her for a night or a week or a month. For sex. Not her. And her and her mother and her sister and other women would have said 'well finally a man who knows how to treat a woman'. Yet he would be doing no such thing, he'd be BUYING her things to get to her sex toy, knowing full well he wanted nothing to do with her other than that an despite her clear communication she was looking for something that would turn into a relationship.

So who was the 'real man', who treated her like a woman? IMHO I did. I remained in contact and friendly, we even flirted but I did NOT take her up (until over a year later when we had connected some) on her (repeated) offers. In the interim I was a good friend, respectful, listened, and as mentioned invested a good deal of time and effort to help advise on and then draft a letter to her employer that helped net her a 50% raise and change her life (moved from unsafe apt in bad hood to lux apartment in great hood).

She asked me to meet her once in tears and proceeded to tell me some things about herself she was sure I would run from and I was super non judgmental and supportive and she cried because I was. She told me later how good a friend her mother said I was.

When we moved slowly into a physicial relationship, by which I mean after the very first time which basically involved foreplay with her pleasure the entire focus, I was suddenly told that her sister said I needed to 'up my game' and 'take her to dinner'. Because the months of respecting her and not taking advantage of her be damned, the amount of attention and support of her life and the impact I had on it be damned, the listening without judgment and supporting her be damned, the amount of pleasure I gave her in a single nigth be damned; I touched her vagina, I need to buy her dinner.

So let me tell you what I think about some of this nonsense about courting aka buying a woman things. I treated this woman like a person and a lady by not taking advantage of what I could have because I respected who she was and where she was and gave her what I could by supporting her and her life and who she was. She did not do likewise and nor did her family. If women think they should just 'show up' and be courted they have anoter thing coming. Or they end up with jerks who know how to play the courting game and do NOT care they want a relationship or a THING about them witness:

left flowers on my front porch.  He made the right gestures, showed amazing interest in me, but sadly turned out to be a bad man for me

I didn't leave flowers and didn't make (the usual) gestures and was not in a place I could show that interest. But I turned out to be a very GOOD man who, other than not buying her dinners and flowers treated HER like a person AND a woman. So she can listen to mom and sis and wait for the dinner and miss that the night she got sick I offered to come pick her up at midnight and take her to the emergency room.

Had he ever suggested that we meet at a bar after one of our breakups, you can bet  that would NEVER HAVE HAPPENED.  Not if he was looking to regain my trust and find his way back into my heart.

 
Gem SHE asked ME to meet her at not 'a' but at 'our' bar. Less than a whole day after I reached out to her after two months . She did so at 11am the next day so my text was on her mind all day and night and she decided on waking she wasn't even going to wait and see if I took the 'talk to you later?" bait and possibly disappear again. She had clearly been thinking about me and hoping I'd reach out and wanting to see me VERY MUCH. I replied in 30 minutes and she ignored it. I replied the next day with a firm date and time, she ignored it for for the entire day and at midnight texted me a terse 'lots happening cant make firm plans'.

This puts me in a box and in a way her in a box. I said to her 'no worries reach out when you want I am here' but that means that it is now up to her to ask me. So I decided to give her an out if that was the case and just say 'hey I know you have a lot going on but I'll be at 'our' bar tonight if you want to pop-in and join me'. At the bar she just asked me if I would like to meet her at when she was clearly into meeting me again.

I'm not trying to 'regain her trust'. If anything WE are trying to regain each other's trust. Jsut because I've realized I did thing wrong in some ways does not change the way she handled things that day in the SLIGHTEST. I bet most men would have acted worse than I on the way out AND never called her again. I don't think she EXPECTED me to call again witness how utterly happy she was that I did and her IMMEDIATE attempt for us to meet and connect.

So I was not just suggesting we 'meet at a bar'. I was trying to make what SHE made clear SHE wanted to happen happen; we meet at OUR bar. In a way that respected her entirely ambigious and open-ended 'can't make firm plans'. Because my only other choice is to leave it in court with my 'no worries reach out when you can I am here' which might not work for her or me. Please tell me my alternative (other than leaving her flowers or ignoring her wishes).

most men these days think there is no need to Court a woman

I could get into an entire BOOK on this vis-a-vis #metoo and the attempt by women to reject only 1/2 a paradigm and maintain the other. My take on it is that it is not chivalry that is dead it is feminine grace. Because most of the women who want to be 'courted' and can tell you chapter and verse how men should act and how they should treat a lady can't tell you a single thing about how women should act and treat a man and get their hair in a knot if you even suggest such things exist. Men don't just not court because they haven't been trained to they don't court in part because they've been trained NOT to and in part because you get very little for courting these days (and I don't mean sex) because women today see it as a debt not a dance.

dropping off simple flowers on a weekday to get a read may save you time and brain wringing.

Which would mean essentially courting her. I don't know if i WANT to court her. Again this is Skip's take that that is my 'charge'. Lest we forget the original story, this woman in many ways treated ME horribly. And right after I DID court her as the whole point of our dinner was as I told her 'let's start our relationship over and do it right; let's have our first date on Friday I'll take you out to a great restaurant and we'll take it from there'. Courted? She had no idea what that meant. She had no idea a man picks a woman up. She had no idea a man gets out of the car and comes and escorts her to the car. She had no idea a man holds the door. She had no idea how to act whern the hostess walked us to the table or that I hold her chair for her. I know how to 'court'. She like so many women of her generation thought it stopped and started with being paid for. Anyway I digress...

The point is somehow the conversation is how does 1T 'regain her trust' and 'court her like a man' and 'man up'. I'm not sure how this became the conversation. I don't need to show up on my knees with flowers, beg her forgiveness and start a courtship campaign to 'make up' for anything. Just beause I came to realize I made mistakes outside of the way she treated me, nothing in the world is happening between us if she hasn't realized she made some WHOPPERS and needs to regain MY trust. Just as when we started if she wants me to 'court' her (again not sure how this is the theme) which I don't even know she has to give me a reason to trust her and want her. Not saying chase me I'm just saying that continually making the store about my needing to 'prove' my love to her just is not in gibe with reality.

I sent her the beautiful letter a month ago. I sent her a beautiful text a week ago. She JUMPED at it and made it clear she was VERY interested in meeting me soon at the place me met. The moment I accepted she got cold and backed off and disappeared. Does that sound like anything to you? Yup, the entire relationship.



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