BPDFamily.com

Just come off a two week break from work after having to buy the leave in order to take it and get my mental health back in line. My pwBPD was relentless during this period. Second night in we had watched a late movie and I was ready to go to sleep at 12.30am when she hands me two full written pages of tasks, chores and expectations for the two weeks I had off (it was the first 2 weeks I have had at home since 2016). Every day I was constantly asked when I am going to do this or that and would add another 6-12 things to take into consideration or have to do for her every time she thinks of something. She was pissed off at me because I hadn't finished building her large greenhouse and spent 4 hours each day over last 3 days to get it done for her. When I was trying to move it, she threw a fit because I spent about 60 seconds fining some garden clippers to cut an overhanging branch which kept hitting it and she was waiting too long for me to get it done. She ended the holiday by telling me how she does literally everything, I do nothing and she just constantly begs for help every second. Heard her complain loudly on the phone to someone that "my husband is worthless and does jack ___".

Today was my first day back at work and got inundated with text after text, paragraph after paragraph how much I don't do what she wants. And that she has tried everything, from threats and ultimatums to begging, guilt trips or constant badgering. To be honest I don't even want to help her anymore as it is thrown back in my face repeatedly. Now she wants a divorce and her two week trip to see family next month she said she is never coming back. I am in suicide prevention counselling, and I have nothing left to give and lost hope of being able to manage this. I'm not perfect but I don't deserve any of this. I have lost hope and want to disappear complete from her life. I think I have finally reached that point of no return.

Good evening Burnt Out,

Hey Man you are NOT alone, there are many of us here that feel the same way as you !
I have been there/here as you describe many times over the last seven years that I have been married to my u/BPD wife, let me tell you Brother, oh’yeah!... .I get the exact same $hit from my W... .

I guess “FOG” keeps me going at the moment, my W can be especially nasty also... .she also has a “laundry list” a fricken mile long that she is always beating me over the head with... .and leave from work, we just recently took about ten daze and flew up north to see her Son, I knew how it was gong to go, and she did not let me down, Intold myself after several travels together over the years that I would NOT travel with her again, but I gave in, and it was a fricken disaster $hit show from begining to end, will Inever learn... .

Listen man... .you are going to survive this, what do you really want, as for me, if my W took off and left tomorrow, I’d be happier than a than all get out!

Yes I would, .listen Man, you take care of yourself ok, take is easy, do something for you, BPD is going to rage... .and be general pains in the arse, that’s what they do... .H3LL I am getting the “treatment” right now form mine pa/BPD... .yes, and mine can be a very obtuse flavor of “nasty”... .

I was married before... .for twenty two years... .“that one”, yeah she almost killed me, but I survived that divorce, and then I, like a fool signed up again... .what in the world was I thinking  !

Yes, take care of yourself Man, your gonna be just fine, there is a whole wonderful world out there beyond “crazy”, I know as I was there for about five years before I thought I needed to be married again.

Hang in there Burnt Out,

Red5

The last 2 weeks was basically just a last ditch effort to get a break from all the drama and stress, chill and get back on top of my life. It seems like she resents any second I am at home that is not serving her directly in some way and made it as difficult and against my wishes as much as possible. She booked two weeks by herself to go overseas and overheard her on the phone telling her mum to not tell anyone so she has no plans or schedules during HER 2 week break. I dont even think she seems me as a separate entity, because its like my break became her opportunity to take as much advantage and squeeze as much out of me as humanly possible, and thinks nothing of demanding the same for her.

If she left in 6 weeks and never came back I would survive, but I have given up so much of myself for this relationship. I am no longer on speaking terms because of issues with my family and my relationships, the only support / outlet I have at the moment other than here is my Suicide Support counsellor. As for what I want, I just want peace and happiness and get out from under everyones expectations, dramas or judgement. Thats all I want in life now.

My W left for ten days a while back... .and it was a much needed break for me, .I would love for mine to “leave” for two weeks !

Damn, you’re lucky there man!

As for me, until I came upon this BPD explanation... .I was also very “lost” in this, but in the last fifteen months I have begun to learn the tools in order to deal with her, unfortunate in the midst I am beginning to realize more and more that this marriage is “not really a marriage”.

I too just want peace and quite, and I want to be free of this caretaking that Inhave resolves myself too, I no longer, of I really ever even did: have a functioning wife.

I am fifty two years old, and I am too old for this $hit anymore, sad to say that, but it’s becoming more and more evident every day to me now.

I am tired to Burnt Out,

As far as family and friends it is quite common for pw/BPD to wreck havoc in this area, these boards are chocked full of “my BPD wife hates” my mom, dad, sister, brother, friends etc’... .another reason right ?

Wow, two weeks... .you are a lucky fella!

Hang in there,

Red5
 

Right now I am ready to move out, get a small rental, start playing music again and shut her completely and totally out. This isn't a marriage, and today I really came to the conclusion I have to get away from this and if I don't it will utterly destroy me. 2 weeks at home with my wife gave me a glimpse of what a future with her would be like when we have quality time together.

I am no longer Human to her, got another text this afternoon demanding I sign the entire house over to her because its only "fair". I am supposed to go out with her tomorrow night. Uggggh. I know what I have to do, I just can't bring myself to do it (leaving / disappearing I mean).

... .And she's pregnant. She asked me to get a pregancy test so I got a pack for her. And its positive. I know its not 100% and better for the 2nd in the morning. There is a good chance it is a false positive or not take, because that has happened before many years ago. Or it could be the real deal. To be honest part of me is in a part of my life where I need to start again one way or another and would be thrilled to have another child. Another part of me is worried that it will be used as a way of keeping me around and under constant catering to her needs.

The normal behaviour of little comments on anything i didnt put away, or asking me why I am doing something (that she keeps asking me to do but I guess it wasnt when she wanted so its not ok). And she is still adamant on selling the house and leaving ASAP because I havent finished it in her timeline and dont have an appropriate plan to present to her as to when I will have it finished. And she  got mad it took me more than 15 seconds to google whether its ok to eat baked beans while pregnant because her food was ready and hasn't eaten all day and is waiting too long for me to google that at the same time as putting the dogs out and cleaning their mess because even though I couldnt see it she has super smelling sense now and can smell it in the hall. Oh and I found out I'm really terrible at folding clothes. Whether this is really happening or not, the rollercoaster continues.

Hey BurntOutFromBPD,

Congratulations on being a soon to be Daddy, it's a blessing regardless of what happens.

Sounds like you're very much the hen-pecked husband and you're in some super thick FOG. By the sounds of things you have reached a low, okay suicide could be a further low, but I think you're better than that. Useless people don't build greenhouses and do tasks, useless people sit about scratching their nuts... .SO... .we've establish that Mrs BOF BPD is a load of rubbish talking moany pants and YOU are actually pretty USEFUL and that on it's own is a good reason to keep living.

Would you say Mrs BOF BPD was full utilised? If the answer is no, how many things on the list would you say that she was PHYSICALLY incapable of doing herself. Not having the knowledge isn't an excuse anymore, we have YouTube.

What happens if you push back or even stand your ground and say "No, that is not acceptable!"?

Enabler

Good morning Burnt Out!,

Wow, another kid!, .I have three, but they are all grown up now and on their own, save my oldest who is autistic and lives with me permanently, along with u/BPD wife (step mom).

Kids as you know are a huge responsibility, but as Enable says, a true blessing... .yes they are my friend.

Listen, after I got into work here, and gave your post more thought, and as I read what you wrote over again, I can see something that really sticks out to me, and Enabler has echoed this.

Your wife is kinda "outa control" here, in my humble opinion, the term “roughshod” comes to mind... .an understatement correct!

Ok, that said, .I don't know how long you have been married, where you live (globally), and you are writing that you already have another child, is this yours and hers together?... .and she is really giving you the what for about a myriad of things, to include text bombing you at work, this is NOT respecting boundaries, either said or unsaid boundaries... .so BOOM!, there it is Burnt Out, your wife is all up in your grill man, seems all the time… she is not respecting your space, your que, your boundaries!

We need to change this... .and if it works, and you are diligent in enforcing your boundaries, a lot of this clap-trap will stop, and be somewhat abated... .I know how it is when "they" come after you, and never cease the "nagging"... and blah blah blah's... .not fun.

But be advised, setting and enforcing boundaries is not for the faint at heart, especially with a pw/BPD. It takes time, and persistence, and there is going to be “push back”… but if you stick to it, and you are steadfast, things will change, over time.

I looked at your profile, and see that you have been here since May this year, .so I wanted to ask you, have you looked through this website and checked out all the references, and "tools" as they are called; used to mitigate the constant disagreements, fighting, and just general $hitty behaviors that you/we are experiencing.

Here is a link for boundaries, a good read... .https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

Keep posting Burnt Out, I like many here; can completely concur with what you are feeling, ie’ you are feeling like you are done with the marriage… this is what happens when the non (us) has gotten to a point where he, or she “has had quite enough”.

Completely understandable,

Hang in there!

Red5

I have been pushing back and standing my ground periodically, although with the constant resistance or revenge for that I have had to learn to pick my battles over the years. We have a difficult relationship but have found some dysfunctional way of staying together  after 17 years somehow. So many ebbs and flows though. I am pushing back right now on a number of things and others just ignoring, as much as my energy can take.anyway.


We live in the southern hemisphere but she is from the US. We got married over there and lived there for 5 years before moving back here. We have been married for 17+ years now and we have one child together and she has children from a previous marriage althouhg they are all grown up and live in different places. I have invested a lot of my life to make this marriage work, we did separate once for almost 2 years but it was like losing multiple limbs. I couldnt cope and neither could she and eventually got back together and have been for over 5 years now.


I have read through a number articles here and 3 books now on BPD. I have tried a few of the suggestions but need much more practice and have to rered them again when I can process things better. I have to keep reading them over and over. Its easier to do that when out of the FOG though. My life has been so overwhemling everything that I know or should know seems to go out the window and my brain goes blank or unable to focus fully. Not just with things I have read but all the time now. I have thoughts of suicide but they dont go too far anymore thankfully, I am in prevention counselling and have enough tools from that side to stay alive. At the very least I still have a daugther. Maybe another one, or a son. I am less worried about being a father again than I am with coparenting (together or separate). That geniunely fills me with dread.

Couple of things, one observation and more info:

Can you tell us what happened when you separated before, why did you split, what happened during and how did you get back together? Did you cut an arm off to get back with her?

Pushing back or leaning into things needs to be consistent. By being inconsistent about her boundary bashing, you are essentially saying "please test me every time to find out if this time I'm going to be flaky or not". This is not how you 'want' things BUT it is how things are, and from what you're suggesting, this is how things have been and will be for some time.

What specifically do you think we can help with initially. I'm guessing it's not the relentless tasks which are getting you down, more the relentless criticism, emasculation and lack of gratitude. 

Hey Burnt,
I had this same sort of torrent of constant criticism from my first husband. It got to the point where I lost confidence in my own abilities. Obviously you are very capable, but anyone who withstands this sort of abuse becomes fatigued over time.

As Enabler has said, inconsistent boundaries invite boundary busting. It's difficult, but not impossible, to break longstanding patterns. I don't have the same sorts of issues with BPD husband #2, but what I've learned is to think of myself as an immovable boulder in those situations when someone wants something from me that I'm not interested in providing.

They can push all they want, but I'm not going anywhere. And I'm happy and quiet in my "boulderness". If they truly want whatever it is, they'll need to do it themselves.

Cat

You are getting good advice here. Boundaries are the key.

Well enforced boundaries will be very difficult at first but will allow you to step off what my T calls the “crazy train”. They almost allow you to observe the relationship like a movie, in my experience. You can start to see the behaviors of your spouse for what they are and not allow yourself to be controlled by them.

The book called “Boundaries” by Cloud and Townsend is super helpful. It takes an evangelical Christian perspective but even if that is not your thing it has a ton of great tips.

This (sadly) sounds so familiar to me... .my fiancé! We started off with a great relationship. We were constantly traveling, doing things we loved, enjoying our time together, and when we weren't together nothing felt right. 8 months of that and then she got pregnant, and EVERYTHING changed. It went from being the best/happiest ive ever felt, to feeling helpless and alone. We fought constantly. It was more her blaming me for cheating or not caring about her. She now hates my family, and our daughter is 2 months now. She blames me for everything, not the good though. I waited on her hand and foot her whole pregnancy, but guess what... .her "entire pregnancy experience and experience as a mother is horrible" Why? because of ME! The one who made her breakfast day after day before my laboring job of 8 hour shifts, washed and folded clothes day after day, cooked dinner, cleaned our house weekly, washed dishes, paid for every little unnessesary thing she needed while she was pregnant, put up with being accused of everything, belittled day after day, got the nursey ready from top to bottom with NO help. It was a nightmare for me. Now, im miserable. I have no friends, my family isn't allowed to watch the baby, she hates my mother, and im stuck. Im only with her for the baby. She has physically and mentally abused me. I cant take much more. I seriously feel like a slave. I work Mon-Fri 9-5 and when I get home I wish I was back to work, because I go home and have to watch after the baby (which I absolutely love doing), cook dinner, clean the kitchen, clean the bedroom because that's where she spends all of her time, clean up after the cat, its just constant. I could handle it, but that on top of the mood swings, the accusations, the hate, the love, the constant turmoil, its getting to be too much. Everyday I wake up with the thought "what will today bring?". Its a struggle and Im getting to the end of my rope. I do love her, but is this worth it? Would I be happier if I moved on, got split custody, a PFA and lived alone? This thought runs through my head daily. Some nights I cant even sleep in the same bed as her because im disgusted by the things shes said to me... .I just keep hoping for the best outcome. Good luck! You can PM me if you ever need support, because I get it. All. Too. Well.

Having a baby is stressful and actually pretty f scary. Someone with emotional sensitivity will find this period very difficult from a stress and fear perspective and this anger cannot be directed at the baby... .as that doesn’t necessarily fit well with someone who’s trying to avoid being ‘bad’. So, it gets dumped on you, it has to go to someone, someone has to be to blame and it can’t be her, and at this stage it can’t be the baby. If baby is sick... .it’s got to be because you looked at her the wrong way. If baby has a cold, it has to be from your work rather than the baby toddler group your wife took her to. Blame and fear are expressed as anger and that has to go to someone.

Your job if you want to improve your situation is to take the following steps:
- is this anything to do with me? Always be accountable
- if the answer is no, listen in a non-judgmental way and hear her... .remember, whatever she says, however personal, this is still not about you, you’ve ascertained that already.
- see throigh all the words and try and find meaning and more importantly emotion in what she is saying. Is she scared?
- find some part of what she is saying that is true and validate it. Do not be tempted to validate the things that aren’t true.
- choose your words carefully and use them sparingly.

Have a good read of the tools section. You are doing a good job, you know that and you don’t need her to tell you that. Do not rely on her to tell you.

Well shes definitely pregnant. Wow, I am still kind of numb with it all. Will found out sometime next week if all is progressing ok, but if the baby carries to term this would indeed be a miracle and both of us have wanted another child over the last few years (not at the same time though). Part of me is really worried about how we will cope together trying to co-parent again, but another part wonders if this will soften some of the recent hard edges and she would be trying to create peace and calm around her instead of chaos and disorder.

I made it clear I was trying to understand exactly what she is needing from me specifically that I am not providing, and that I can help her much better and have a happier environment and support her more if I am not living under a cloud of resentment, and threat of separation/divorce.

How tough is it to be the "Supportive Husband" during these times, while trying to create or maintain boundaries and be a complete immovable rock? What do you do during times when all physical and mental energy is exhausted and the push back keeps coming?

Congratulations, that great news.

One quick point on the topic of parenting. Typically the utopia would be that you have 2 parents with exactly the same parenting style, both parents are consistent in that style, maybe one is typically firmer than the other but both tend to react in a consistent way. You are capable of this, do some work on learning about parenting styles, pick on that suits and stick with it. Authoritive works for me, a can’t handle the chaos of passive and authoritarian is too restrictive and leaves you exposed to abuse accusations by W... .and it’s not good for kids development. You wife will not be able to stick to one type of parenting style, there’s lilely to many stressors that will mean she flips from passive to authoritarian. Think about that now whilst you have a chance.

Re jobs and tasks for baby, try and encourage conversations and potentially document roles. That way you know what is within your boundary and what is within hers. Do not allow her to casually chuck responsibilities over the proverbial fence into your domain. Protect your borders and take no critisism for things that are in her domain. This may involve sitting with some emotional pain and emotional fallout from her.

Do you journal? I didn’t but I do now. Not only is it good for your sanity but given the high vol of the relationship it’s a good record of you parenting participation if it should ever come into consideration. iPhone notes is good but make sure it’s on the phone memory not on any shared email account and make sure the phone is safe from her. Detail specific events such as what happens in arguements, dates times and especially physical abuse.

Would you be able to share an example of an incident with a bit of he said she said so we can see how confrontation evolves?

Enabler

Hi Enabler,

Most recent incident on the weekend, it was about 5am and I woke up to my pwBPD calling me from the bathroom as she was sick asking me to take care of teh puppies. I did so without question, took them outside to go to bathroom and took them in my room to have a nap around 5.30am before they wake up again. I let them play around a bit around 7-7.30am before getting up, I was just laying down with my door open listening. My wife wakes up screaming, angry and storms in my room saying

"You NEVER do ANYTHING I ask you ever, and this is why I am leaving you".

Me: you asked me to take the dogs, I did so, took them out to go to bathroom, layed them down for a nap, gave them some food and let them play while I rested my head for a minute.

"YOU DONT DO ANYTHING, I COULD HAVE DONE THAT, LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE, THIS IS WHY I CANT GET ANY HELP FROM YOU EVER, AND WHY I AM LEAVING YOU."

After this point I was just fed up told her "I am sick of nothing being good enough and being told I do nothing while I am literally doing what you ask, and Im fed up with you threatening to leave me every second something isnt exactly what you want at any particular second of the day"

This is the kind of confrontation that happens frequently now. Always absolute statements relating to me not "meeting her needs" at any particular time and that I never do anything for her ever. Its become so ingrained, I dont know if it will ever go away. I am supposed to be a father again, yet I have been convinced over the years, I am a terrible father and terrible husband and no matter what I do I am continuing to be convinced of this. No matter how much I stick up for myself or walk away whenever it is like this, I am on edge waiting for the next one. And every weekend I am going through panic attacks over this stuff.

I dont want to leave and I do want to be a father again and be a family. But I cant find any happiness or peace in this situation.

Morning BOF,

So, whilst I avoid trying to second guess what is going through her head and what her motivations are for these comments one things is pretty clear. She defines what is and isn't acceptable for you to be doing and you justify, argue, defend and explain (JADE) in response to her outbursts. No one likes to be told they are a bad person especially when they have been thoughtful, caring and carried out instructions. It feels unjust and hits to the very core of what is important to us.

So, here's the tricky part. Don't JADE, at all. Every time you JADE you basically feed the beast and invalidate her feelings about your motivations. You want to correct her narrative because you believe her narrative is incorrect. She believes her narrative is correct and no amount of explanation is going to change that for her. YOU KNOW that you carried out instructions and you did the best for the puppies... .have faith in yourself and move on. Nothing to say, no reaction needed. Ask yourself next time, ":)o I need to respond at all to these statements. Do I need to give them 1 second of my attention?"

It won't make her comments go away in the near term but you will start to train her that these insults and accusations go nowhere and you waste no energy defending yourself to her. If she wants to pick a fight or hurt someone... .join a box-fit club.

Thank you Enabler, I appreciate your advice. Its just so hard to maintain no reaction as the worst attacks are usually when Im tired or distracted. I have given up trying to understand what she really thinks anymore. Im just beaten down, I have another child on the way and she is still threatening to leave or divorce me at the drop of a hat. This morning, I took the dogs out and turned on the fireplace for 15 minutes to warm up before leaving. One of them followed me and she flipped out at me for why is the dog in the living room, you never help me etc etc. All I replied with is that I went in there 30 seconds ago to turn on the heater and the dog followed me and was waiting for him to follow me out.

I cant get past feeling like every second of every day of my life is being completely judged and resented by her. Whatever I do, whether its an instruction or just something I am doing myself, she is looking for something to attack. She is looking for ANYTHING to justify all this crap going on in her head. If I can navigate past one issue and hold my head up, she comes down tenfold on another. I just dont know if I have the strength and resolve anymore to continue to manage the impact of the behaviour.

I have no friendships or meaningful relationships outside of my marriage, I am estranged from my older daughter, not speaking with my personal family. I have to constantly battle the suicidal thoughts which came back over the last few months. I have another reason now to need to be alive, and I need to stay that way. Im just completely dead inside though.

Buddy... .this is mega mega tough and it sucks that people even want to do this to other people. You’re right to try and avoid working out what’s going on in your wife’s head... .it’s likely nothing to do with you and likely all to do with her. Some people on the boards suggest thinking of a giant pink elephant in the room with you when she blabbering on about this that and the other, that works well.

There comes a point though where you need to stand up for yourself. You need to say “STOP”.

Does your wife get significant abandonment fears when you leave?

 I have said "STOP, please just STOP" many times during arguments or outbursts and usually have to walk away after saying that. Sometimes I have to say it multiple times.  But I have not been able to do this consistently. Like I mentioned before its usually when I am in stronger in mind that I can detach from what she is saying and just say Stop! or Enough!. Most other times I find myself going down that JADE path you mentioned. Usually when I am not prepared or expecting it, if I'm letting my guard down, or just physically or mentally exhausted.


A couple of months ago I left for a few days to get away from everything when it was at its peak. Things have never been the same with her since. My days have gone back and forth between constant nitpicking, fights, threats, ultimatums from her to acting like nothing ever happened. Although the calm hasn't lasted more than 3-4 days at most before going back again. At no time has she taken the constant threat of divorce/separation off the table and it has been used as an aggressive tactic for some time now. She knows the emotional impact it has on me and has been hammering that particular button like crazy.

How can you take the power out of that punch?

What would happen if you accepted that as a reality and showed her the BS card?

What would your life look like post a divorce? Can you visualise that?

Every time she threatens you with that you go into a tail spin. It works at making you feel terrible. Next time she says it, say to her "okay, lets look into getting a legal mediator, divorce is not something I want nor plan for but I'm not going to hold you in this marriage if you want out. You are free to leave whenever you like." ... .now what ya gonna do hey? Bet she doesn't leave.

She had a few comments during the divorce threats and arguments about me not wanting to go to counselling and refusing to change etc etc. I just ignored it this time taking your advise not to JADE, had a talk with my counseller on the phone who suggested she come to a session. I told my wife she is welcome to attend our next session. She said she would think about it and hasnt mentioned a word about divorce / separation or marriage counselling or refusing to help since then. She has snapped at me a few times as usual but I can tell she is holding herself back and trying to be nicer the last day or so. Small victory maybe?

Top work again. You gently showed the BS card and showed her that your world was open to her and you always were willing. It’s taken the power out of the punch and put the ball firmly back in her court. Keep tapping that ball back to her and let her fumble around with it.

So my wife attended my counselling session with me as I offered to her. It was an absolute disaster. While my therapist explained why I had been seeing her and the issues I had been going through and that she offered to sit in on a session and get some perspective and maybe help work with some of the current issues. My wife decided this was "Marriage Counselling" and the only reason she was there was to address all the current issues ruining our marriage, which basically were me and everything that I wouldnt change.

It was so horrible, I had said to myself before the meeting I would just sit back and listen to what she had to say and not react. But it was a long series of verbal listings of every single thing I have not done for her not just in the last few months or years but the entire marriage. That she had worked with her counsellor and agreed on the things I needed to change and that if I didnt the marriage was over and my inability to help her and change has destroyed our marriage. I was told I do 0% of anything ever, she has carried me for 17+ years and now she is done and wants to leave immediately. Blamed me for every problem, issue and that I am subliminallly getting sick just to take attention away from her.

By the end of the session, I just had my head in my hands, I was shaking and I could barely even speak. Even now I am feeling sick to the stomach thinking about it. She made comments stating that she completely ignores and doesnt even regard any thing I have to say back to her as she is 100% convinced she is right and I am not so there is no point. She left to go back to the car and my therapist pulled me aside, said I had to get away ASAP and suggested I admit myself immediately to a psychiatric hospital. I said no as I had been there many years before and was one of the most unpleasant, unhelpful experiences I ever had so I would be better helping myself.

Since then my wife has basically not even acknowledged it whatsoever, is acting nice to me and making little comments of appreciating little things I do. But I dont beleive its any change, I think she is trying to prove to herself she does thank me when she needs to , and can still justify everything else she says and believes and has turned it around again that there is nothing abnormal about what she is doing. So far I havent reacted and been doing what I normally do, helping and doing the same things I always have. But inside I am just completely and totally disintegrated. I dont know how long I can keep up the tools and stay in this situation.

That sounds unbelievably painful to have had to listen to your wife blame you for every single issue and conflict from 17 years of marriage. Hearing that she completely ignores what you say had to be devastating.     Now all that is in the open, with your therapist as a witness, what are you thinking regarding the future of this relationship?

Whether or not you stay in this marriage, the tools will protect you from much of her wrath. In the meantime, you might think of yourself as being "undercover"--doing what you typically do, but meanwhile, planning out your strategy for the future.

Good Afternoon Burnt Out,

I cannot count the times I have read... .

... ."never ever ever go to joint "counseling/therapy" with a pw/BPD; significant other"... ."don't do it" !

The list of reasons why is "myriad"... .but your post just seems prove the afore mentioned point once again.

Very sorry that you had to endure this, I've been in the particular hot seat myself a couple of times, it ain't fun; I know.

Best wishes,

Red5

Just wanted to say, I've read your posts and I get it.  The giant no-win situation to the point that things like self harm make sense when you previously wondered how anyone would do something like that. 

I hate taking time off work because I know it will be more stressful at home.  Road trip with my wife?  I dread the stress.  A "vacation" to me is a leisurely day at work where I don't have to answer numerous text messages or am not begged to come home early.

Today she was driving me to work.  Big mistake.  She started on me before we left the driveway because she forgot her glasses.  Somehow that was my fault.  I simply could not take it for the remaining 20 minutes to work.  After she wouldn't stop yelling at me in the car I got out at a red light and took public transportation.  I'd rather that than listen to her scream at me and call me names while trapped in a car (with the kids in the back seat).

Sounds like you really need a break, and any way to take that break winds up more stress.  Do you ever sometimes hope for a big fight so that way you will be on the sofa in your "own space" at least for a few hours?  I do.

Take care of yourself,

Max

That's basically where I am at now. I am doing what I normally do, not intentionally doing less or more, just my usual. Since then I have now had multiple comments last morning and night, how much I seem to be doing and putting in the effort since our session, and that she notices and appreciates it. I am literally doing the same as usual.

Ironically, when you quit jumping through hoops trying to please them, they often start noticing and appreciating what you're doing.

I've been enjoying getting a better response by doing less.   

Max... .so sorry you have to deal with this... .but I have to say I'm very proud of you for taking this action to "take your ears somewhere else".

FF

Sorry to hear that, I know exactly what you mean feeling more stressed off work than on. Had so many experiences in the car like you mentioned, eventually we would always take 2 cars, and swap or separate the kids to avoid 30 minutes of constant yelling. Also have to sleep in separate rooms, I need a sanctuary where I can switch off from it, and after a while we both found we slept better and enjoyed having our "own space" and area. I dont think I could ever go back to living in the same room, and usually I have to sedate myself before a long car ride together (she always drives because of serious control issues when I do).

Hey there burntout,

So so sorry to hear that the T session wasn’t productive, although maybe in a perverse way it was. Anyone who comes to a marriage counselling or even a T session and says it’s 100% them is pretty much saying to a T “I’m the problem here”. Now, ‘fault’ is what people with PDs care about, solutions and healing is what healthy people care about. Your T has now seen for his own eyes some of the issues so hopefully can work with you to find solutions... .likewise we as a community will assist you on that front.

Not to be smug in the slightest, but I have the pleasure of being on a 2 week holiday with my 3 kids without uBPDw. It was a 600m drive which took 12 hours. Historically this would have been very stress filled. We managed it with only one major dysregulation by D9 which is unheard of. I’ve also realised that holidays on my own are no harder since I did a decent amount of the organisation and logistic myself on previous holidays. The drawback seems to be that I get to taste fewer wines as I have no one to share each bottle with. Kids are calm, they know the boundaries and stick to them.

Keep doing the things you want to do or feel you need to do for you... .the rest... .leave on the roadside for your W to look, point and scream at. When she screams, laugh internally “I know what you’re doing here”.

BurntOutFromBPD

Had your counselor ever met your wife before?  

Approximately how long would your wife talk before the counselor would talk or interrupt?

What comments or advice did your counselor have?  id you have individual time after your wife was done?

My guess is the reason your wife is being nice is part of the "carrying you for 17 years" thing.  Perhaps a bit of a martyr thing.  Almost guarantee you it's not well thought out... .but an emotional impulse thing.

At first glance, I'm very glad your counselor go to "see" what you are dealing with.  I hope that will improve her guidance to you and help you better reflect on parts of your life.

Be extra kind to yourself... .  

FF

... .Oh' yes... .we recently took a weeks "vacation" to ND to see W's son and wife, in fact I wrote a post about the experience   ... .and as per historical "data", .I knew exactly how it was going to go, in fact I was "calling shots" before they even happened  ... .it was VERY stressful, .but I did it for the "over all good " hmmm, .in fact I needed a vacation away from W when we got back home... .

A work trip sufficed.

I agree with this line... . 
Talk about "showing the cards"... .ie' the ole "you guns"... .

Hope all is well today BurntOutFromBPD !

Red5

No she hadnt and it was a last minute thing if my wife was going to go or not. My wife would talk for a number of minutes straight and absolutely said everything she wanted or needed to say that had been built up for a long time. I think she had planned having some session with some counsellor at some time to lay all this on me. What the session was supposed to be turned into what she wanted it to be which was to "prove" all the things she has been saying to me and "lay it all on the line" like it was an intervention or something expecting the counsellor to agree with her and work with me on these things.

When the counsellor asked me questions, my wife answered them for me. At one point she said she was so convinced this is the problem and that it is 100% not her and that I have mental health issues and she knows she doesnt and is rational in what she is saying and demanding. I was completely broken down by the end of the session. I was bracing for it to be bad, but I felt completely destroyed. Could barely speak anymore, physcially shaking with my head in my hands. My wife used that as proof "see, I dont get upset or angry and look at how he is and how ridiculous it is and I have to carry him."
She walked out to her car (thank god I suggested we take separate cars), and my counsellor basically just pulled me aside and said "I see, I understand and I'm sorry".

My counsellor wanted me instituted for severe mental health and suicidal urges, but I talked her out of that. I have another session with her next week on my own and I dont think we will be attending anymore sessions together ever again.

Oh lovely lovely. More immediate divorce threats again today, more of the "I keep literally begging you for help and I have never ever gotten support and I am leaving" again. This was after I left work last night, stopped got her prescriptions and groceries, did a load of laundry, cleanup up 7-8 spots where the animals have peed/pood on the floor which was left for me to deal with, and took care of the puppies all night. Arranged multiple contractors for the house repair quotes on the weekend, filed new insurance claim, updated existing claim, and registered the animals in her name.

I know doing more doesnt mean the attacks will stop and will probably make them go worse. But the truth is most of these things I do or would do anyway if asked or not. I just would probably stagger them more and manage them differently rather than jamming everything into every spare moment ever. But I dont want to live like this anymore. I cant live my life like I am having to manage someones behaviour every single day. I dont see how I can do this anymore.

Hi!
Appreciate your story,am separated from my s.o., we were together for ten yrs, separated for one yr now.

Hang in there.  What i saw was i am co dependent, i need to develop strength within myself, my boundaries, self care, self love, its an opportunity to show myself that i am able to care for myself.
I am not a victim.   I choose to care for this man.
People w BPD are special people.  When i realize that i am not a victim, i can choose whatever path i want, i am free.

I do not need to live in fear, blame, or shame.

Blessings,
j

Hey... .even if they are things "you probably would do anyway"... .I would hope you can consider that if you continue doing some that will make things worse... .things will continue to get worse.

Can I challenge you to look at the list of things and pick half of them to give back to your wife (and be ok with your wife NOT getting them done).  Or perhaps let the natural consequences flow down to your wife... .no saving

Look at it another way... .why save your wife from adult responsibilities? 

Pick another perspective... .what if saving your wife from adult responsibilities contributes to her inability to "do" adult responsibilities?

Please understand... .I'm not suggesting this is your "fault" but I am suggesting you have a responsibility to not make things worse.

Just like many people eventually understand that handing a drink to an alcoholic is not helpful... and "they may find another way to get a drink"... .people still have a "responsibility" to do their part.  (very loose analogy... hope it makes sense)

FF

She accuses you of not being helpful and supportive, threatens to leave and divorce you. Meanwhile you're picking up her prescription, grocery shopping, doing laundry, getting contractor quotes, dealing with insurance claims, and cleaning up puppy poo and pee. As you know with pwBPD,  Feelings = Facts.
And meanwhile, all that you're doing is not seen or registered by her.     

You feel like you can't keep on shouldering all these responsibilities and be treated so unkindly by her. She threatens leaving you and divorcing you--what would your life be like if she followed through with these threats?

Cat is making some very powerful points here Burnt Out !


This is projection to me, she is turning/projecting “it” back onto you you.


I do this as well, ie’ work all day in the yard, sweat  toil, & labor… she does not help me… mowing, weed eating, edging… trimming, picking up limbs, removing WHOLE trees, till my ole’ back is sore beyond anymore ability to even move… but I did not help her “paint a wall in the house”, and I did not “clean two carpets” in the house that her mother’s little dog pee’ed on last time we dog sat for her… really !/?


See above…


Hmmm, ok?, don’t let the door hit you in your caboose I say.


I call this “emotional reasoning”…


Yep, that ole’ song and dance gets pretty old does it not !… as the primary (sole) provider, I do take issue with being treated like a galley slave, yes I do !


In my world, I got a pretty good idea, and from this grid square, that looks pretty appealing to me... .I tell you the truth, once I "removed" her threat, ie' she now knows I don't care either way, I have removed the wadding and fuse from her cannon, so now; if she says the "" word, it has zero effect, and she has now realized this.

Hang in there Burnt Out !

Red5

That is the part that no matter how much  I cannot seem to not be emotionally affected by it. That's the big thing for me, I cant switch that off no matter how much every other part of me tells me to ignore it or don't react.

My question to those of you who are able to do this, how were you able to stop the internal emotions and stay calm / solid during the times they throw everything at you and diminish every single thing you do?

Even if I dont verbally react or stay rational, my body language always seems to betray me. Even if everything in my head knows the real truth and where this is coming from, my emotions and physical reactions do everything they can to take over.

Hi BurntOutFromBPD,

I'm really bad at "poker face". I was accused by my H the other day of "looking at him in the wrong tone" 

I find what works best is to distract yourself or depersonalize what is happening in some way. Here are some fixes you could try in the moment and see which works for you:
- Sing a favorite uplifting song on repeat inside your head (out loud will annoy them).
- Identify what's funny (or just unbelievable) about the situation (Red5 is the expert here!).
- Think up an empowering heroic character based on a favorite book or movie (or pick an existing character) and role-play this character inside your head (how would Captain America react during this conversation?).
- Decide on a villain character from a book or movie that your partner is acting like right now. Imagine they are this character. (Try not to laugh out loud.)
- Think through how you will tell your therapist about what is happening.
- Think through how you will word a post on bpdfamily about what is happening.
- Make a mental list of points that could be cited as "unreasonable behavior" in a divorce, and journal these later.

But remember pain, including emotional pain, is a warning that something's deeply wrong that needs fixing, and these are just painkilling meds for the immediate situation. Like it says on the packet, "if you need to take these for more than three days, see a doctor".

Hope that helps,
BetterLanes x

And I hope you aren't reading advice to "switch off"  (perhaps we need to clarify some words)

I actually think "more authentic" is the key.

Your spouse comes in... .and says  "blah blah blah... flying monkeys and you don't love me... "

Stay authentic... .express shock  "Oh my goodness babe... .I have no words.  I'm going to have to take a break and think this through."

See... .you are authentic... you expressed shock at shocking things... .yet you also didn't punish and judge. 

What would "staying switched on" and adding in an immense amount of self care look like?

FF

Of course you get emotionally triggered by her unreasonable behavior.     That totally makes sense. Anyone would. The trick is to turn down the volume on your emotions. And another biggie is to not stand around and participate in those harangue sessions. Yes, sometimes you might be trapped in a car or somewhere else where an exit isn't feasible. But you are under no obligation to listen to that unkindness.

You can say, "I can't have this discussion now." Or, "Until we can calmly discuss this, I'm not going to participate in this discussion." Or, "Let's talk about this later after a good night's sleep so we can be at our best." Figure out something that you can say beforehand to exit the conversation.

Without having strategies like this in place, I want to give you an overview of how it used to play out in the past with my BPD loved ones. Like you, I knew in my head the reality that my pwBPD (either my mother, my first husband, or my second husband) was coming unglued and making all sorts of wild exaggerations (making a mountain out of a molehill) and accusing me of having weird and unkind motivations. My first instinct was to go to the "It's not true" defense and try to set the record straight with logic. (This would be a perfectly acceptable strategy with a normal person and would have a good chance of working. However we are dealing with pwBPD and need to throw standard rules out the window.)

And of course, as expected, my pwBPD would now get even madder and more out of control and I would get increasingly fearful, feeling totally at the mercy of their bizarre emotional outburst.

I'm someone who has a great poker face (developed early as a coping strategy for dealing with my BPD mother). And my lack of emotional expression has been used against me--"You don't care!" Even though on the outside I could appear calm, on the inside I was anything but calm.

So it's been a real blessing for me to learn the Rules I've learned here. One of the biggest and most effective rules of engagement is NOT TO ENGAGE. If you've ever studied martial arts, likely you've learned is that the best strategy in the real world is to walk away from a fight. Fight only when you absolutely have to. And that goes for listening to a BPD dysregulation.

Let her dysregulate by herself and when she's calm and can speak civilly, then, and only then, do you participate in a conversation. It's easier said than done, I know and it takes time to change patterns.

So, to answer your question about how to stay calm and centered when your wife is saying unkind stuff--"I won't be spoken to this way." Then if she continues, leave the discussion, leave the room, leave the house, whatever it takes to regain your peace of mind.

You may have never done this before, and most of us nons haven't. Boundaries are key. Most of us wouldn't tolerate some wackjob on the street speaking to us and telling us we're awful people, yet we tolerate it with our BPD loved ones? No more. Done. They're welcome to think whatever they want, but when they speak to us, we need to be treated respectfully. Period.

If you add "moving" car... .then I might agree.

Certainly walking away at a stoplight is a pain in the rear (and look both ways)... .but once there is a clear understanding from your pwBPD that you won't be "trapped"... .the behavior will usually slowly die off.

When I'm driving I will "take her home" or sometimes stop the car and say "We can talk about this later or I can take you home now.  Your choice."

And then sit in silence.  She used to keep yammering.  Now that is rare... .we usually move it to later and later usually never happens, since her feelings have passed.

FF

Hey Burnt Out,

With me, it’s taken literally years… years of learning, learning the hard way.

I recall many of the fights of yesteryear… as you describe, “they throw everything at you and diminish every single thing you do?”

What do I remember doing, I remember fighting back of course, and when logical facts (JADE) did not work, I did resort to dirty tactics, ie’ fight fire with fire.

We had some real humdingers, boy we sure did… no not nice at all.

I can think of about ten things off the top of my head, lines crossed, such mean and vile things said, end of the world stuff, marriage scuttling, relationship sabotaging things… in anger, some in self-defense, some by me in outright anger at what she was giving to me, saying, yelling at me… terrible.

So what changed, well, kind of like the stages of grief I think, before I ever understood anything about BPD,

I went from What the heck did you say (do), to then outright anger (verbal fighting), then reprisal (sometimes physical/destructive from both her & me), to feeling lost and depressed, then to wow this is really broken, to ok that’s IT… I am GIVING up… “F” this krap.

… right about then, I came across this BPD explanation, some sixteen months ago now, and I started to learn, read, and I engrossed myself into it… I guess I wasn’t ready to give completely up quite yet after all… still she raged, and I was getting the treatment, but I came to a place of, “its not really about me is it”… I had empathy, and I started to try to understand just whom I had married in the first place… still hard to take yes it was/is, but at least it was not “so personal” each time I was/am attacked.

So what do I do, how do I handle her now, my udx BPD wife?

Well, I do not fuel it, I just listen, I no longer JADE, unless it’s absolutely necessary, and when I do… I understand I will not win, but the boundary must not be breached by her… so I drop my ordnance anyway, and then leave the area, ie’ consequences of her going just a bit too far.

I understand that when she dysregulates, its not about me, as BPD cannot process their thoughts, so it come out all garbled, and they attack, and it all comes out sideways… so I just cross my arms, and say “yes dear”… sure!… whatever you say.

I tell little “white lies”.
I don’t tell her everything.
I hold back triggering information.
I avoid her when she is a crank.
I hug her when she wants a hug, when she doesn’t, I stay the H3LL away from her, and that’s that.
I set, and maintain boundaries, even when its painful, oh’ yes I do.
When she wants to talk, I listen, but I am brutally honest when she asks for my input, whether she likes it or not.
She labels me an A$$-Hole, a jerk, a real basterd sometimes… that’s her issue, not mine, I no longer care what she thinks of me!
She labels me controlling, that’s her issue, not mine, I no longer care, what’s good for me, I protect now.
She labels me insensitive to her romantic needs, that’s her issue, not mine, I no longer care.
She labels me as a black and white thinker, all or nothing (yeah she really does!), that’s her issue, not mine, I no longer care what she thinks about me.

Have I given up, yes, on many things I have indeed, as I am now extremely realistic about this marriage relationship, no more fantasy ideations about the perfect little wife and marriage anymore , where it has come from;… what it is now, and where it’s going in the future.

It has taken a long time, years maybe, but I have reinvented myself to her, my persona, my “bearing” around her… have I changed, perhaps I have, I recall a much older thread here about “who were you before BPD came into your life”… so yes, I have changed, in order to survive in this marriage/relationship.

All things considered, not much of a relationship is it(?), in the context of being “yoked” together… no, more like chained together … be advised, humor is key to your survival, look for humor in the never ending BPD crazy… it’s there, you just got to look for it.

Down to the nitty gritty, she is in my grill, and saying this and that, snarky, mean, outright attack.

I just stare her down, like a drill instructor… that’s the language she understands… I say nothing for a while, I actually tune her down some so I can think… I pull up my mental checklist (tools)…
*Is this hill worth dying on, yes or no.
*Can I calm her down, yes or no.
*Is this in anyway a valid argument, in any sense of the word, yes or no.
*Is SET required here, yes or no.
*Has she been drinking, how much have I had?
*Is she throttling up, is there about to be projectiles launched.
*Do I want to “help” her down outa that tree she’s climbed up into, yes or no.
*Do I really give a $H1T one way or the other about any of this latest line of BS she is shoveling out, yes or no.
*Is it time to launch countermeasures, yes or no.

Ok time to act, I have said nothing, and I have taken none of the bait, she is till cranking on, I am done with this one, time to break suction, and I say to her… “ok Babe”, you are not going to speak to me in this manner anymore this evening, you are done, I am going to make myself a mason jar of adult beverage, would you like one too?… NO!… ok then, as you wish (she now starts into calling me names)… alright I say, the time on deck is 21:55 hundred hours, my show is about to come on, and I will be retiring for the evening after that, (she is all the while interrupting me, but I continue speaking)… I hold up my hand, flat and palm out, and say… “this discussion is over, why don’t you just go to bed, I will be in the office, good night”!

There was a time when she would have walked all over me at that point, but she does not do it anymore, I have over time, through consistent action, and holding my boundary, and NOT returning her blather, gotten her to burn herself out… whatever she says to me, whatever she calls me, I don’t care anymore, and my persona, my bearing exudes this… as far as a poker face, I have the old weathered stern face of an old judge, about to sentence horse thieves to the gallows as I look at her… she knows how I feel, and she knows that her blather manners none.

Sometimes, I burst into sarcastic and unfathomable laughter, and tell her she is talking crazy, or off her rocker, or that’s the funniest thing I heard you say in a while, yes mocking… but a very effective countermeasure to her anger… sometimes… I clap my hands together, and say “BRAVO BRAVO… what a show, I am impressed… Oh’ boy”… that usually makes her storm off to the bedroom, and slam the door, and then it’s quite about the decks for the rest of the evening.

DON’T let them get into your head… you do that, it’s over, and you will be run over… maintain your demeanor of strength, you are the man of the house, don’t give away your power.

A woman can do the exact same thing.

Yes, if I don’t JADE, fight, or go into fright mode, but just stand there, like the grand old A$$ - Hole she says I am, and say nothing back, usually she retreats, so far so good, fifteen plus months after the BPD “epiphany”.

Whatever you find that works… works, till it doesn’t anymore, then try something else.

Good Luck Burnt Out,

Red5

After I mentioned earlier following the disastrous counselling session I decided to do what I normally would do on weekends and I actually got thankful comments and things pointed out like why did I not do that before?

Then I got a lecture again that she cant keep begging me for help, and went back to all the previous rants after stating she didnt want a divorce and appreciated me making an effort. Minutes later it devolved back into all the same blanket statements which I just walked away from.

Then I got this SMS on my phone which could qualify for an essay:

"Why did it take 2yrs and me being miserable and getting to a point where I was leaving for you to help out and listen to what I was saying? Is that one wknd that ur willing to help or are you going to change and start to step up? I am so sick of fighting for anything and everything. I understand ur stressed and miserable. That doesn’t excuse you.

Do you realise you do everything twice, why not just do it right the first time? You clean your room only for it to be destroyed by the same night. Why not actually throw away ur trash in the trash can the first time, or put laundry in the laundry basket, instead of the cycle of making a mess and then spending hours cleaning what could have been done correctly the first time? Or when watching the dogs, actually watch them instead of just cleaning up after them. Or when putting together something and not finishing then put the tools/screws etc somewhere that they won’t get lost? Or the countless other things that you are too stressed out to focus on what you are doing so rush through and don’t do correctly or loose or destroy it Etc.

Why have we refinanced the house and yet ur more broke now? What ru spending ur money on bc I’m beyond sick of going through my savings and having nothing to show? 

I guess after two years of fighting I no longer feel the same and no longer believe you will change and I no longer have the energy to spend two years fighting to get help.

I do love you but it’s been too hard for too long and I’ve lost faith that you actually want to be happy. I know ur sick and unhappy and I feel bad for you but I can’t keep doing this. I don’t have the same issues and I actually can be happy, I’m sick of the constant negativity. I know you are too but after 17yrs I need to accept that you can’t move on from ur mind no matter what actions I take or how much I carry.

The idea of staying in this relationship just exhausts me. I have given everything and I have nothing left to show. Spent 100’s of thousands of dollars, planned vacations, worked, cleaned and still you were miserable. I need to accept I can’t make you happy, you are the only one who has the power to choose to be happy. I need to let go of your problems and allow myself to b happy and live my life without fear of your anger or moods.

Going to your counsellor actually didn’t help, it made me think this will never change. Her saying things like ‘Luke is not a tiler’ is bs! Neither am I yet it has fallen on me to complete for years. Asking the amount of time I’m home when I’m studying full time is also bs. I guess in her eyes marriage is a competition. Her pointing out that it doesn’t matter what I do or who your with that you would be in the same place just reaffirms that nothing I do or say will ever be enough for you and I can’t keep doing it all. I might as well be single, it would actually be less work and less stressful. You don’t know but several counsellors over the years have told me the same thing, with ur mental illness I either need to accept that this is life or choose a different life. I never wanted to believe that but I guess I just need to accept it.

I hope you finish the house to sell it but I’m fine just signing the papers and selling it for whatever we can get. Finishing uni so I get respect from people I don’t care about is futile. I want to  back home and I am not waiting for uni/kids/house/work etc anymore. It’s all just excuses and I’m done with excuses.

I need to be healthy if I’m going to raise another child and I can’t be with all the stress that you carry. I’m choosing how I want to live my life instead of being pushed and pulled bc of you or the kids. In the last month I’ve spent close to 10thousand just covering groceries and bills and day to day life.

I won’t do it anymore, I’m going to spend the last of my savings planning my move. I refuse to have this child here. Before we found out I was pregnant I was working on myself to build up the strength to leave and just because I’m pregnant I decided to try and stay but I have been up thinking all night why should I keep trying when it’s been pointless and made no difference except that I am now beyond tired?

Maybe it’s my disability, maybe it’s the pregnancy or maybe I’ve just reached the end of my patience but I don’t see the point of being in a relationship anymore. It’s taken too much of me. I’m really sorry it’s come to this point but I just can’t keep doing this anymore. I begged for help and marriage counselling for years and now I just don’t have the energy to keep going. I hope we can stay friends because I do love you and want the best for you but if not I accept that too. "

She is so deep into the perception I dont think I will ever get past it. Whenever I do anything, she nitpicks it to the point where I am better off doing nothing. If I do anything as she pointed out above, I never get it right the first time, and whenever I am doing anything I am being pulled in so many different directions and distracted so many times it is impossible to finish many of these jobs unless she is not around. But she is home when I leave in the morning and there when I get home and on weekends so at no time can I do anything without comments, negativity, nitpicking, or put downs. I completely resent being in this marriage now, I didnt even respond. As for the refinance, I have transferred $500 to her account EVERY fortnight to help contribute to the contractors and house stuff she had been using some of her settlement for. I am also paying the mortgage, rates and utilities solely out of my paycheck.

I just want to disappear and walk away and cut off all contact and let her see for herself how much she took for granted that I will no longer do. My whole existence for her is based on what I do for her, and nothing else. I feel like she is trying to make me feel ok about her ripping into my entire existence over and over and over and make me feel like I need to change and that I need to respect her behaviour. Im so deep in the rabbit hole I will never get out of this. I am beginning to move past the love I had, that has kept me here. I am beginning to genuinely despise her.

So you feel like you're fighting a losing battle. She's so sure of her negative perceptions of you that she's unwilling to see things differently. She's a whirlwind of negative energy and interferes with anything you try to do with her nitpicking and criticism. You've been paying your share financially, yet she refuses to acknowledge it. Likewise you've been working hard on projects, but she's been interfering.

You harbor fantasies of leaving the marriage and then she might notice all you've been doing. At this point, the feelings of love you once had for her are turning into contempt.

Where do you see yourself after the birth of the child? What about in five years?

I dont actually believe if I leave she would notice what i did and regret things. It would most likely double down on proving herself right the whole time. I love her but yes I have total resentment and contempt for her right now. I dont even care anymore if I can prove I do my share of work or financial contributions. Even if I did it wouldnt make a bit of difference. All my wants and fantasises and hopes of how I want things to be are all fiction.

I dont know where I see myself after the birth of the child. Most likely same place I am in right now. In 5 years I just hope to be alive right now. Anything else that is not complete and total rock bottom is a bonus for me.

She likely would NOT notice for a while.  But it's not because of what she would "see" or "miss".

She would likely have so much emotion because of abandonment stuff (BPDish) that she would focus her blame and anger there.

Said another way... leaving is not a good way to "show her" things.

Leaving is a good way to leave.  Get space.  Don't use it for other things.

I'm going to have to reread that long thing... I kinda got lost in it.

Listen... the details of it don't matter... it's the thrust of the emotion that matters.

   
FF

I am not actually planning on leaving or stopping everything just to show her. The urge and fantasy is there sometimes when I'm frustrated over it.


Yes its very long and exhausting. And unfortunately for all the constant criticisms and absolute statements, there is always grains of truth in there that she clings to and hits a nerve with me (because I know some parts are true in a way). But much of it is a complete distorted fantasy of who she is and what she does over our marriage.

The big thing that keeps coming up is resentment over things she has done to make me happy and resents that I am not. When the truth is the constant attacks, criticisms, put downs and controlliong behaviour is what has sent me into a depression and self medication spiral.

Can you imagine a time in the future where these attacks no longer hurt you as much?

I had a trigger around being labeled "selfish". My mother used that word to manipulate me all throughout my childhood. And then my first husband discovered how sensitive I was to that word and used it to control me. When my second husband learned that I was sensitive to being called "self absorbed" (a variant of selfish), he frequently used that too.

It wasn't until I thought about how I'd been so afraid of being thought of in this way, that a number of realizations occurred to me. One, what child isn't
"selfish"? It's certainly a part of finding one's identity and learning to have preferences and boundaries--something I didn't learn from my family of origin, which really was a hindrance as an adult.

And two, these people identifying me as selfish or self-centered or self-absorbed were projecting. Typically I was identified thusly when they wanted something from me.

I was able to break the spell with that word. Finally when told that I was some form of self-something, I merely agreed. "Yep. You're right." It was so incredibly freeing and it caught my husband by surprise. How can you paint someone with the negative brush when they're already agreeing with you. And the more I did this, the less frequently it happened, because it no longer worked.

It wasn't that I was admitting to some awful behavior. I was merely admitting to being human. Of course we are all selfish and self-absorbed and self-centered at times. There would be something wrong with us if we didn't take care of our own needs.

I encourage you to free yourself from the negative impact of her words.   

BINGO !


This is huge!, .once you pull the fuze outa their cannon, then they have nothing... .


Someone told me when I first came here (FF), ."you must unlearn what you have learned"... .this is a quote from Master Yoda himself !

... .this means; that [some] of the knowledge you may think you know to be true; may indeed not be true after all, and could be blocking your ability to ____,

Cat nails it again !

Red5

Thank you so much Cat and FF. It gives me hope at least, not that the relationship is going to necessarily work out but that I can free myself from the constant projection. It hasnt just been from my wife, my family did it to me my whole life. My therapist keeps bringing back the feelings I have when being put down or perceived incorrectly or negative assumptions that I get from my wife, was how my parents and family treated me my whole life.

I refuse to be controlled in my life, and allowing people to trigger those dark feelings in myself is how I have been controlled. I so want to break these chains.

   

You and me both, Burnt! It took me a while with therapy and participating here, but I no longer have the stimulus-response link that I once had from being criticized or having negative assumptions made about my motivations, character, intentions, etc.  I still don't like those kinds of comments, but they happen much less frequently.

When they do, I remember the phrase I learned as a kid: "Consider the source."  It didn't mean much until I learned that I was not this horrible human being that people had told me I was. Now I think, "You're in pain and you're trying to dump that pain on me. No thanks." And I can let things slide, for the most part--or I can remove myself so I don't have to participate in the conversation. If I really need to, I can confront the accusation from a place of strength, where I'm not JADEing, but rarely do I feel a need to do that.

It takes time, a bit of practice, and forgiveness of yourself when you don't get it quite right. It's certainly worth the effort. 

So I had my final session with my therapist. She told me she is 100% convinced I am BPD. She said she believes my wife and I both are. I have been recommended 2 years of DBT, or that I should find someone getting into psychotherapy and be their case study for a year, she thought I would make a classic case study.

I guess I should start posting in the other board now.

How do you feel about your T's diagnosis given what you have learnt and discussed on the boards here?

Does your knowledge of BPD tie with your own understanding of yourself?

I have made every effort to not lead you in any way shape or form here, I hope I have achieved this... .hence no sympathy, outrage, agreement or disagreement. I'd like to hear your heart and your reasoning.

Perhaps you are... .perhaps you aren't.

I'm very interested in the testing used.

Much better to go to someone that tries to "rule out" (fill in the blank).  PAI... .  MMPI and other tests (assuming you have valid results) can be very important.

I'm not discounting dx by observation and experience.

My history...   I have PTSD.  I went through a fairly extensive process to "rule out" bipolar and other issues.

Turns out I "just" have PTSD... .nothing else going on in there.

Lots of testing... .lots of interviews and T sessions. 

Anyway... .regardless of dx... I hope you move forward making you the best you can be.

FF

I felt pretty humbled by the diagnosis actually. Previously she thought I just had PTSD, and the associated depression and anxiety and maybe ADD. But now she told me she is 100% convinced I have BPD, that the past trauma and family relationships and the constant need to manage and regulate emotions and the issues with suicidal thoughts, and addictions and the push and pull relationships are what has convinced her.

I am currently reading "I Love You, But I Hate You, But I Need You: How to love unconditionally for someone Living with Borderline Personality Disorder". I am surprised at the diagnosis and at the same time, it seems totally obvious. Like how did I not see that before. But being on the other side, it is easy to not associate all those things with myself as that was not my focus at the time.

I am having a hard time disagreeing with anything I am reading about myself in the book so far and what my Therapist has told me. She also suggested if we are both with BPD it explains a lot why we still have a pull together no matter how long or how much we pull apart.

I would be interested to hear any experiences where both partners are diagnosed with BPD.

BurntOut,

I am not a professional and I have had no formal training whatsoever, your T has... .so please take that into account when you read my comments below about MY PERSONAL experience.

I have been seeing my T since Apr17
I have asked my T on numerous occasions whether he believes I have BPD or NPD
He said he did not believe I have a personality disorder
I would call myself a reactive-non... .pretty toxic... .I have a compunction to correct the narrative and react to my W's dysregulations and accusation. I personalise(d) them
In the darkest points of the last 2 years I have had suicidal thoughts, I've thought that if I took myself out the equation things would be better for everyone... .then I actually thought about it and realised that couldn't be FURTHER from the truth... .but yes, I still thought it.
I was definitely prone to serious anger and violence against 'things', almost unhinged when my situation becomes so utterly intolerable and I'm being accused of things that are just not true.

BUT... .
I'm one of the most contrarian/in the grey people I know
I had a good upbringing with no childhood trauma
I have never self harmed
I have never had suicidal thoughts pre late adult life events and relationship issues
I have a healthy relationship with drugs and alcohol, prescription meds and exercise... .small exclusion is nicotine
I have never once been unfaithful to any partner
Pre being in a BPD relationship I had an excellent control of my emotions, so much so I'd say I was boring (hence attraction to BPD W)
I have excellent executive function
I have excellent delayed gratification skills... .too good in fact
I rarely lie and in fact am typically too honest
I have no dellusions
My recollection of facts is consistent... .backed up evidence
I am capable of deep honest personal introspection
I am happy to be held accountable
I don't deflect... .much
I don't think I project
I'm a solutions guy not a blame guy


Yet when I am around my W and interacting in her dance... .I could probably be seen as just as BPD if not more since my reactions to her bla bla were more aggressive and more vocal. Hell even the couples counselor we saw thought I had a screw loose and told my wife so.

It's called catching flees... .

What you should try to untangle is, what is you, and what is the relationship. What parts of your anxiety and PTSD are tied to you being triggered by the behaviors in the relationship, and what are externalities due to your own issues. You may well have BPD traits now in this moment... .Why? Because BPD traits are the normal human results of sustained high stress and anxiety.

Why do you two still have a draw to each other? Because you have years and years of shared experience, in any relationship there's an element of enmeshment, but more so in a relationship with someone with BPD... .also, in some way shape of form your different personalities compliment each other, she has something you need, you have something she needs.

I'm not teeing up excuses for you, and you would be a fool to adopt my personal rationale without serious soul searching... .If you decide, do DBT therapy, I'm sure those skills will be helpful for you, they're probably helpful to anyone. Keep learning about you, keep learning about BPD and keep building yourself up. If you like the BPD badge, wear it with pride.

Enabler

Spot on !

As I look back over the years... .starting when my first wife and I got married, she was sixteen, I was eighteen... .nineteen eighty something,

And as that marriage went on, we grew together, then apart, and all the crazy things that we dealt with, her, .and me... .childhood trauma her, and me being quite immature... .well yes, I think now that I presented many BPD traits over the first eleven or so years we were married.

This is what I now believe, .as Enabler wrote... ."Hell even the couples counselor we saw thought I had a screw loose and told my wife so."

Couple this with, .I had no clue, or idea to even begin to understand what my wife at the time had been through (CSA for years)... .what a mess, especially when she started acting out, and slipping away.

I think, if one (us the Non) is aware, becomes aware, thinks that we may be BPD/npd'ish, or whatever; and is trying to learn, to correct, to improve, and deal with what has, and is happening, accepts it... .I am talking about we/you/me, not our sig-other, pw/BPD, either undx, or dx... .then that's a good thing.

I heard a "T" on the you.tube channel say a while back, the people who wonder if they are "crazy" are perhaps the most mentally stable people on earth... .this makes sense to me... .its those who deny, and avoid, those are the folks that are going to crash and burn one day, or for lack of a better word.

Red5

Without a single shadow of a doubt I would expect you to sit through and participate in a full course of DBT training. I wonder how many Ts would say that of their diagnosed BPD clients?  And maybe you should just to prove me right!

So... .let's be clear here.

Is she giving an opinion or a diagnoses?

Did she do any testing or just go from her experience with you?

Does she have a PhD?  How many years experience?

I would also be curious what she hopes to improve/change in you by sharing her "diagnosis".

FF

She gave a "strong" opinion. It was not a diagnosis but she made it clear that she is 100% convinced, and based on my past sessions, my personal history shared, and the session with my wife.

I am not sure how many years experience but she has a PhD. I think she wanted to make it clear what she thought I was dealing with and what kind of therapy I needed going forward. I think it was her way of ending the sessions, as she confirmed she does not specialize in this and I would need to see someone who does and she doesn't think she can do much more to help me at this time.

But the truth is the more I read and look back:
- I get severe mood and emotion shifts lasting minutes or hours
- I get upset, offended, insulted very easily
- I have a history of suicide attempts and self harm
- I have a history of substance abuse
- I have severe self worth / confidence / identity issues
- I constantly feel unhappy, empty and unfulfilled
- I have had a history of unstable relationships
- I can either be extremely distant or codependant
- Loss of recollection, memory etc
- I have a childhood history of physical and psychological abuse

I dont think I can really disagree with her but I would like to find someone who does specialise in this area and get a proper diagnosis and treatment / therapy plan.


unfortunately the long running therapy over the years all has childhood and adolescence as the underlying cause of the anxiety disorder. Fear of abandonment, rejection of relationship or the self, and loss or constant changing futures all trigger me. So the relationship triggers memories or learned response, or reiterate some "truth" I have beleived about myself from over the years. I still have a very fractured relationship with my family and they are a very close knit "circle" (its not a constant drama, type family, more judgemental and gossipy). So I think part of my needs for codependecy are part of fulling a hole I never got being part (or apart) from my own family.