BPDFamily.com

I’ve wrote a post that since has been moved to the legal board.
While I contemplate the past, better yet, try to think what have a missed, where have I not been supportive of uBPDh I wonder if our life together can be saved? He is trying to inflict pain through real emotional abuse and financial manipulation, which I will describe in a following reply. I finally broke down under the abuse, stress and the feeling like I’m banging my head on the wall. That is it. Whatever I have been doing till now is no longer working. I radically accept that. I am where I am. Is there a way of getting out of this to a healthier relationships? Can we stay together? If my disappointment and hurt is so high, I wonder what he feels?

Updates: we came back “home” on Thursday, he “poofed” and magically decided to leave “work place” a day early. I’m not going to go into the last few days, as there is nothing significant to share, except today when he took financial abuse to the next level. Telling me:” you are now living in the salary alone” wasn’t a threat. He actually meant it. When today rollled out and I got a small fraction of what we monthly require for spendings, which is only 60% of what we need as a family I panicked. He barked out :”call the lease busters and get rid of the car”, and xyz... .chore. I tried to speak in a set method: “ I understand you feel like you lost 60% of your assets, I know how hard you worked for it, I also understand that the car is a very expensive liability, but the matter of fact is, we need another vehicle to get around when, or more reasonably when you go to work”. To which Re replied:
“Get rid of the car, everyone can take a bus (d15, me, my mother and our child with disability s11). I calmly asked him, what is the purpose of him doing this to his family, what’s the end goal. His reply:
“I am teaching you obidience. I promise you, you will crawl on your knees with the whole amount of the same from the house, begging me. Even then I am not sure if I will want you, you have lost my trust because you have waited with the sale for two weeks”.
I panicked and called our business accountant, she shared private info, and I hope she won’t be fired. Her and I were friendly, as I would validate her frustrations with ubldh ways of handling finances and expecting other people to read his mind. She said that the money on the account are in abundance! And she will be happy to write me a cheque in lieu of shareholders loan repayment (I took money out earlier to invest into uBPDh’s business from our mutual line of credit for the house). I then called uBPDh’s partner and asked him if it was an ok for him and us to get a cheque so I could stay afloat financially. He gladly agreed.
As I went to pick up the cheque I wanted to speak to uBPDh and inform him, that things aren’t as bad as he thought threy are. That they still have money on the account. What happened next is a blur. As I came to the office and I asked him to come down so we could talk, he stormed downstairs and started yelling at me. “You will pay for this” (swinging in the cheque in my face, “you went behind my back, like a f-being slut that you are, asked my partner for money”. I tried to explain that I didn’t know that the cheque was going to be issued so quickly and promptly, and that I knew that he had money on the business account. He started threatening divorce, saying that he has nothing in common with me, that he lost all respect for me. When I tried to insert that 1.he has money, 2. That I’m not spending on me, I need to pay for bills, therapy and d15, he said with a sinister look on his face, you see, I told you, you will beg.
I then completely lost my mind, there, I asked if the cheque that he can afford to take from the company is a big deal for him, he replied yes. I ripped the cheque in front of him and begged him to speak to me. He stayed in the car, laughing, yelling or smiling, at the tears streaming down my face while I begged him to spare the children. He walked out with a satisfied look on his face, saying that I need to get rid of the car. I don’t remember getting home, I remember almost collapsing in stomach pain on the floor and my mom picking me up. I have colonoscopy and endoscopy scheduled for Thursday as I have blood in my stool. I was finally able to tell my mom most of the truth, sparing her from telling about cocaine and physical abuse. Still, it was enough for her to say: “enough, I can’t want you do this any longer, you need to get out, we are here to help, don’t you dare selling the house”.

He is projecting already, calling me crazy and schizophrenic.last night, when I tried to speak to him, “you said that trust is important... .”, looking straight him in the eye, he started laughing, saying that (normal saccadian eye movement which everyone has when they fixated on one object)”your eyes are moving, you are schizophrenic.
I just walked away. He will make fun of me and ridicule me for that, mocking “ooh, you are being abused, you poor thing, ho tel mommy about that”.

At some point we all need to take responsibility for our emotional safety and emotional security.   

And do the work necessary to make better.

Not be responsible for some one else's emotional health.    Not wait for some one else to change.

Did you speak to a lawyer?

OK... .I'm here.  Listen, there are big picture things that you keep "going back to" and they are really messing things up.

Either you are, or aren't a partner in the business.  It seems like you are.

Or

You aren't.

Pick one and stay there.  My recommendation is that you pick "partner".  Switching back and forth doesn't do anyone any good

Switching back and forth in response to his belligerence is worse

OK... .pause for a second.

Business partners coordinate with each other, yet they are also independent.  Employees, servants, slaves learn obedience.    Again... pick one.  Stay there.  It is likely not your intention, but YOU are confusing your husband  (I'm not suggesting he is justified in what he does.)

Next big picture thing


Stop trying to talk him into seeing things your way.  Nothing good will come from that.  The same cycle plays out, you talk, he threatens, you cry, he laughs, you tear up cheque, he feels he has won, you feel defeated.

It's the same cycle.

It can be a cheque, toothpaste or (insert the issue).  It's the same cycle.  You are the only one that WILL change it

Why on earth would he change what is working for him?

FF

Snowglobe

I'm going to analyze this in a "big picture" way... and then come back for "small picture".

Big picture "Your hubby says... ."oh yeah well I'm gonna... ." and you then "escalate".  However, this is random.  It seems random to me.  Most of the time your hubby says "Oh yeah, well I'm gonna... " and you rub his feet, listen to all the details of wiping out various ethnic groups, insulting your heritage, and then demanding immediate sexual satisfaction.  All of which are usually (most of the time) granted to him.

Do you see how his actions, while repulsive, work for him?  This is critical you see this.  If you don't, we really need to stay there for a long time.  He has NO motivation to change  none... .zip zero nadda.

I've been following for a while and I struggle to figure out when you "panic".  Sure the themes are there, but he has threatened to get rid of the car, deny children therapy, deny your parents a home... etc etc and "more often than not" he gets sex, coffee and foot rubbing (among other pleasures)

Sometimes he gets what he got in this thread.  You stand up to him (well... not really, you went behind his back which is "kinda" standing up to him in an unhealthy way).  And... .he then "puts you back".  (play out the cheque tearing, crying thing) and you get back in your role and usually stay there for a while.

Note:  This same pattern played out with toothpaste.  (again... .not justifying his actions, but explaining).  You "stood up" to him, cornered him in bathroom and he put you back in place... .by injecting toothpaste into your eye.  (again... .he was wrong, you didn't deserve that... .I'm asking you to look at the pattern)

Then... .there are other times when you "stand upto him" in a healthy way.   Remember the "invoicing" thing.  Over the course of a bit you let him know that either he could submit the invoices, or you could (would)... .but your family had a contract and was going to be paid for work that had been done.  

He wanted a yes from you... .you said no consistently over a few days.  He caved in


Do you see 3 big patterns?

1. Normal role
2. You stand up in unhealthy way and get smacked down
3. You stand up in healthy way and he folds.

Please Snowglobe... .take some deep breaths here.  Please don't hear judgment.  Look for the patterns.

If you don't see them, we really need to stay there for a while.  You can't change what you don't see.

And... .as long as I've been with you, I don't understand (can't predict) when you panic, when you are healthy, and when you play the "normal" role.  (I usually guess "normal" because that is 3/4 or more of what you do)

So... .if I can't predict it from here.  How does your hubby "predict it"?  He doesn't  

When you are unhealthy, he will smack you back in line (and you go)

When you are healthy he goes "whoa... .I better not mess with that... .and folds"

That's what I see... . If you don't agree... please say so, please be specific on what you believe I have or (see) incorrectly.

FF

@Ff, thank goodness you are here!
Please, I’m committed to doing anything, and everything to stop making it worse. I’m already in a pretty bad spot. What should I do next?
I hid out in my d15 room all of he evening and last night, I actually slept there, something I never do, other then when I put my s11 to sleep. I woke up this morning and went to speak to my family doctor, full disclosure. He told me that I’m being mentally abused and it sounds like he has bipolar on top of borderline. He also gave me short acting anti anxiety meds to keep around in case things get harder.
I’m not at all sure what to do next? If I keep hiding, I’m a coward. If I walk out and face him, I’m afraid I will break apart, so much pain inflicted in the last month. I remember thAt last time he was quitting smoking, he was also very abusive, that’s when things escalated and he was kicking me in my chest.
@ff, you are good with military tactical analogy, please explain

Small picture analysis (recommendation)

If you had a time machine.

He says "you will obey... here is your money"

you "I'm your partner in business, not a servant... this doesn't work for me.  If you say we don't have any money, please provide me financial statements by tomorrow afternoon."

Walk away...

Get the statements from him or from CPA.  (after giving him a chance, it's not going behind his back)

"The statements show more money available than you claim.  Help me understand that?"

(listen briefly)

"I need the normal monthly distribution from you by tomorrow afternoon at 4pm."  

(note... I don't think you should use "or else statements" (that is debatable point... .if you should draw lines in sand)

After 4pm... .get your check and live your life.  Either from him or from CPA.

I would bet massive amounts of money that he would fold with this approach.

FF

I don’t see the patterns I mean I do see the big picture, but the fear is so overwhelming that I’m not sure just what I see. Can we stay here for a moment longer?
What would have been a healthier approach?
He is telling me:”I’m cutting you out financially, only basic Cheques, not my problem how you meet the ends meet. Go sell yourself, go get a job, until you will bring me the keys from the house on your knees begging me to stop, I won’t speak to you”
Then, he actually cuts me off financially... .
What’s healthy response to that?

Briefly.

You want to win the "war" (winning the war is a more stable family free of abuse)

Step 1 in "warfare" is to pick a strategy.  Basically... .how will I approach this.  Think back to the United States asking the question, "fight Germany first, or Japan"  By and large they picked Germany.


Step 1 for you is to realize your patterns and "pick a pattern" to win the war.  Which of the three patterns do you believe will win?


Finally:  Tactics.  Each "battle" (day to day) needs to be viewed as part of a strategy to win the war.  You don't have to win every battle.  Most battles are best not even being fought (you conserve your energy and ammo... let hubby blow all his).  Retreat is an honorable military tactic (look at that as you going for a walk while he blows his top).

   

FF

I predict it will unfold like this:
The cpa will confirm that I have the clearing for those, which he will deny. It’s only him and his partner that are legally shareholders.
He will call me “you $&@, you are conniving, trying to scam me for my money, now wait for the hell get loose, you won’t see the penny for your greed”
It went very similar to that. When he wants to punish me and make me suffer, unless I hide under the rock and prepare to die, he unleashes all the fury I never knew he was capable of

Help me understand how a similar thing didn't play out with the "invoices".  My memory was that he threatened and did his thing then as well.

FF

Listen... .this is part of him trying to get you back in line. 

My understanding is he is capable or has desire to wipe out several races/ethnicity of people, including your own from the face of the earth.  That's pretty bad, I would suggest that covers just about anything else as far as not having shock value.

He says shocking belligerent things, for some reason you listen in great detail... .and then fall back in line.

Sometimes you don't.

I don't understand the "sometimes you don't part" and I guarantee you he doesn't either

FF

My question is where have you not been supportive of your husband?

And where has he been supportive of you?

You remember the old fashioned gentleman that you fell in love with when you were a teenager? Well, he certainly doesn’t behave that way now and hasn’t for many years, I would suspect.

You’ve been waiting for him to change. I think he’s showing you who he is. At this point, is this really what you want, not only for your life, but for your children?

Believe who he is... .please.

If you want a change, show him something different.  Do that consistently.

He may show you a different side of himself, or he may not.  I get it that there is anxiety in that notion... that he may not.

Said/asked another way... .what lies down the current path you are on?

FF

It wasn’t as simple as that:
I told his partner that I need the money, but the invoices haven’t been paid in full, I collected about 20% of the amount owed. It has been June, I have only received 5% thereafter. UBPDh gives money in Thebes same manner “eat the cake”. If he is in a good mood and is generous, he will throw me a “bone”, such as expensive purchase, or pay for something for the children. I never receive money more then the basic need. I suspect it’s largely due to the fact that it’s a very potent form of control. As long as I don’t have access to text money, I comply and do what he wants me to do.
The direct authorization for the funds to be released comes from
First- his partner who controls all of the finances
Second- uBPDh
At the time of the invoice payment, partners girlfriend came from overseas, so he needed the condo “at work” for his privacy. Thus he authorized for uBPDh to get a small share. The rest of the amount that has been collected lies in the deep pockets of the company. After this incident with the cheque, I suspect there won’t be any more talk with me regarding the finances.

I fall in line when things get so bad that I feel threatened for my existence and for the well being of the children. Or when he threatens the divorce, which he did yesterday.
Ff, how do I behave today? I can’t stay in hiding forever. I’m going to drive the kids to extra curricular and do some work for school. Last night I left the bedroom and didn’t return, I have not seen him since last night. When I see him, how do I behave?
“Hi, how are you?” Seems so fake and inappropriate.

The way i see it is I’ve exhausted the doormat tactic- not working.
Not sure what tactics to adopt now.
Go f- yourself, silent treatment, ignore is one I feel, but rather not do, for I do find myself more emotionally intelligent.
Pretend like nothing happened- isn’t productive either
There are 3 outcomes as far as I see it
1. He divorces me (most likely)
2. He returns and blames all on me, but leaves a window for me to make things right, which I mostly followed in our relationships. More massages, more begging, he then graciously “forgives me”
3. He cokes out and comes back asking to make up, I also take that root
Only from the last two I also have several options- to place a condition for him to seek help, or put nicely start seeing therapist who specializes in BPD, even that doesn’t mean any progress
Another option is to refuse to speak to him while he is high, and “miss the window of opportunity”, in either of the two options I don’t save my dignity. It’s almost as if he is doing me a favour by staying with me.

All those three outcomes are contingent on what he does. How about you taking matters into your own hands?

See a lawyer. Find out what your rights are. Now. Before things get worse.

If you act like a victim, he will treat you that way. Why not save goodies (feet rubbing and other kindnesses) for when he treats you well? Otherwise you're telling him with your behavior that you are OK with being treated poorly.

Went through intake and am booking appointment for the following week. In the entire history of the relationships I have never taken the matters into my own hands

Excellent, Snowglobe!    It's a great time to start being your own advocate--and a wonderful behavior to model for your daughter! Yay, Snowglobe--you are on your way to becoming your version of WonderWoman! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSB4wGIdDwo

Thank you, Cat

Specific tactic- where do I sleep tonight?
I gave him the custody of the family bed last night as I needed to gain my composure. So I slept with d15. I don’t want to impose on the kids or have them involved in this turmoil. On one hand it’s easier for me to sleep in my bed, shower, closet, mattress. On the other hand, isn’t it reinforcing to sleep with someone who’s sole purpose is to punish me? Major confusion? What do you suggest?

Why would you sleep with him? Isn’t your safety more important as well as your own dignity? Sleeping with him basically makes you available for whatever he wants to do. Also if he argues or wants to keep you up - it isn’t likely you will get the sleep you need.

Sleep is essential - like food -water. Your D15 already knows what’s going on - she probably knows more than you realize ( I did at that age ) . Sleep where you are safe.

Please start thinking about you - not how this affects him. Thinking like that puts all the focus on him- not your feelings or values.

Look at these two sentences :

My neighbor says he wants to punish me and hurt me. Would it be reinforcing to him if I left my front door open while I sleep tonight ?

My neighbor says he wants to punish me and hurt me. To keep myself safe while I sleep I will lock my door.

Which one is more empowering ? Which one keeps you safe ?

@Notwendy,
It’s been a month since we were intimate last, he doesn’t try to have sex when he is punishing me, on a contrary. He tells me “move away to your side so I don’t feel you”. The only thing he might do is disturb my sleep through moaning and tossing.
After a day of calm, surprisingly, the last time I spoke to him was yesterday during the “eye movement” remark, I felt much calmer and more composed. I also heard my own thoughts and felt safer, strangely.
It’s a very bad situation all and all. If I’m avoiding him, how can the situation get better? Is there even a chance or a way to improve things to stay together?
I heard loud and clear that once I choose a tactic, I need to stick to it. Which I plan to do. I’m no longer massaging feet, or apologizing, I’m not strong enough yet to pick myself up either. With impending procedure to see what’s up (colonoscopy and endoscopy) I feel uneasy.
My mom called me today saying that when uBPDh came home and asked where the kids were (extra curricular) she told him I drove them to it. He went brooding saying he wanted to do that (all he needed to do was to send a text to inform me, I would have gladly obliged). He then went to our bedroom to lie down. Whenever he is upset, he burrows himself into many pillows surrounding himself with it like a cacoon, and stays under blankets. She told me that he looked miserable and she pitied him. Asked me if I should sleep in the bedroom tonight. A part of me that loves him wanted to come in and give him the biggest hug, imagining a broken boy who is so angry about something that happened earlier that he can’t stop testing the limits. When I came in, he was in busting himself in the kitchen, with no concern in sight. He tried to look at my face a few times, I bet to read me. There was no sign of concern or remorse, or indication he was willing to change anything. I am not sure he has any empathy for anyone other than himself. So I’m sticking to the tactic of “I’ll be nice when you are nice”

I get it, but how do you move things with the neighbor in a better direction?

You give the neighbor time to settle down, calm down and think things through.    You give the neighbor the opportunity to make a better choice without rushing to fix things or make it better.


I am going to be blunt Snowglobe,   continuously participating in this drama,   continuously engaging with him in these moments of conflict is enabling him to get sicker.    It allows the illness to get worse.   It is NOT stopping the bleeding as it says in step one in the box to the right.  |--->


You are only responsible for your own emotional safety and security.    Not his.    Just yours.   Sleep some place where you are emotionally safe from cruel words.



before the situation can get better the conflict has to stop. before the situation can get better it has to stop getting worse.

  both of you, need time to return to emotional baseline, allow your thoughts to clear, to get into a problem solving mind set.

rushing to hug him when he is hiding in bed adds emotion to an already over charged situation,   it adds fuel to the fire.  it is participating in the drama.   its enabling of bad behavior.  it deprives him of his chance to self soothe.


like NotWendy said this is where you want to focus your energy and efforts.    make decisions that make you feel calmer, more composed, and safer.      once you are calm, composed, and physically and emotionally safe, then and ONLY THEN, can you think about improvement tactics.

A part of me that loves him wanted to come in and give him the biggest hug, imagining a broken boy who is so angry about something that happened earlier that he can’t stop testing the limits.

Except that he isn't a child. He's an adult, and one of the aspects of adulthood is being responsible for your own actions. Actions have consequences: both desirable ones and not desirable ones. We learn from them. Even a child in kindergarten learns that if you don't play nice, your friends won't want to play with you, if you hit your friend, you will go to "time out".

Consider this: you have been doing the same things for many years- appeasing, soothing, protecting your H from the consequences of his behavior. How has this worked for you so far? Have you fixed the situation? Nobody is asking you to avoid your H indefinitely, or to leave the marriage, or to stop trying to make things better but to stop doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results.

The frightening thing for all of us is that, we don't know how to fix another person or make another person decide to love us and treat us kindly. We can analyze what we have been doing to try to make things better and decide how well it is working, and if it isn't - try something else. We have tools to try that have been helpful- but the one thing we can not change is another person's free will to choose and direct their own behavior.

The divisions on this board: staying, conflicted, getting over a relationship are the categories that reflect the feelings of the poster. What is absent from all of them is the other person- they have choices. A person may be posting on staying- they may want to stay- but we don't have instructions for how to make someone else stay. Their partners can choose to leave if they wish.

You want to make your situation better, but also your H has his own free will. If he wants to stay, he can choose that. If he wants to leave, he can choose that too. If he wants to abuse you, he can do that. In this case- the choice you have is to make yourself available for him to abuse, or to keep yourself safe and not allow him to abuse you. The first choice- be available doesn't teach him that to have a friend, he needs to play nice. The second one might, or it might not. That is the uncertainty- that is the source of fear- for all of us. Making changes might risk the relationship or it may not and it may even lead to improvements, but we don't know. The unknown is scary. What you do know is what you have now and you know how to have what you have now: a marriage with a man who treats you the way your H treats you. Sometimes we do choose what we know over what we don't know even if it isn't something we are happy about. It's familiar and there is security in the familiar.

Snowglobe

It's admirable that you want to "move things in a better direction" (to heal) with your hubby.  Please look at patterns, can you see that may stem from a desire to "fix"?

Babyducks gave you some critical "big picture" advice (or perhaps a concept to understand).  Spot on actually.  Can you reflect that back to us in one or two sentences?

Notwendy also had another absolutely critical concept.  Can you reflect that back in 1 sentence?


FF

@Babyducks,
Thank you for your encouragement, I managed to sleep in my s11 bedroom, will probably need to put a cot somewhere to sleep. It’s exceptionally hard to stay away, it’s the familiar rescuer mode that kicks in even in my sleep. I long for him, I want to run and soothe him, even when I know that it isn’t likely, or almost certainly won’t make things better between us. I’m fighting my nature and emotions that arrive, and I let them go. Many of you, that follow my story, know that I have lost all of my human dignity and subjected myself to this treatment. This isn flimsily to snap out soon. I feel that more of ugliness has to come before it has the chance of getting better. He will go through pushing the envelope furthermore. What complicates everything is the fact that we are no longer living in one place. He has to go in a week back to work for a week, then home for a few days and then back to work. Given the circumstances and be position that I newly adopted, it’s counterproductive for me to come along with him to work. It doesn’t serve any purpose when the only time someone speaks to you is to yell, berate or insult you, other times I’m being subjected to silent treatment. I’m afraid to hold out hope, as I don’t think I’m worthy in his eyes to fight for. His values are much different then mine. I value family and he values youth, physical attractiveness, drugs, sex and money. This isn’t a decision I can make for him, it’s pretty scary.

Dear Wendy,
Thank you so much for your insightful reply,
It is a slow process, where I need to be consciously aware of my own patterns. I have in many ways become controlling, over the years of him creating irrevocable damage I learnt to anticipate and prevent break down of relationships, finances, and other important life decisions. He never once complained for me stopping him afterwards from making an impulsive decision. Yet, I find that he resents this control. I’m also fearing the unknown, I don’t think he will fight for me, as there isn’t much to fight for. I’m not a model, I’m not young anymore, I don’t have a six pack, i don’t make equal amount of money with him, I don’t have any special talents. He let me know over the years of how banal and not special I’m. I believe him. Why would he fight to save something he can get “dime a dozen”? As he states. I’m fearing the unknown, but I also can’t live like this anymore. I crave stability, but it’s essentially what’s lucking in my marriage

@Wendy,
Due to my low self esteem I think I’m not worthy to be with. He believes it, I believe it. Need to work on getting myself into a healthier state before we can move on. He needs to stop with abuse first and foremost


This isn't how it works. You can not make him stop doing anything. In fact, you being available for him to abuse with no consequences is not going to make him stop.

To rephrase this:

First and foremost, I need to stop allowing him to abuse me.

I am also going to imagine this from his point of view. These posts have portrayed him as the abuser, and you as the victim. He is responsible for his own abusive behavior- you are not responsible for him nor do you deserve this, but what actions on your part could possibly be perpetuating this cycle between you?


I run to fix things for him, he resents me.

This is what happens when we are co-dependent on someone- they feel controlled and resentful. Behind co-dependent behavior is fear - and the behavior feels controlling. The person who is on the other end of co-dependent behavior can feel resentful. We can only control our own behavior.


The person doing the fixing has to stop the fixing.



He doesn’t trust me to let him make his own decisions.

You don't trust him to make his own decisions.



His will is somehow bent and molded into staying with the family. I’m not sure if it’s the choice he would make otherwise.

He is an adult and adults need to be able to make their own choices. If this is not his choice and you are somehow controlling it or forcing it, this causes resentment.

He is an adult- allow him to make his own choices and to deal with the consequences of them.


More saving= greater amplitude of abuse. I’m having difficulty regulating my emotions, it’s almost a reflex.

You are using fixing him to self soothe. Fixing him takes away his own learning to self soothe. If you learn how to do this, then you can also allow him to learn to do this, but he won't learn as long as you keep doing this for him.

Snowglobe


Great try!  That was very thoughtful approach.  Don't hear me say your answers were "wrong"... .just not what I as after.

I think there are more important answers.

Hint:  babyducks put it in bold.

Hint:  What did Notwendy say about choices?  How does your "fixing" affect his choices?

FF

Please realize that there are concepts you need to understand and there are things you need to do

You need to consult with an attorney.  Best to consult with a couple of them.

Lay all your fears out to them of ALL of the threats your hubby has made.  Listen.  Ask questions.  Write yourself some notes.  Post here about what you have heard.

FF

Before things can get better, the conflict has to stop?.
Unpdh is an adult, let him make his own choices? Me running after him, trying to soothe and micro manage comes from lack of trust in his decisions. There have been so many “distrustful” decisions and actions, that I turned on control and micromanaging to minimize the impact on myself and the children. Ok don’t see it as my choice to stay or leave the relationships. The decision for continuing relationships lies solemnly in his hands. If I let him make the decision it may or may not work out. He may walk away, it’s the price I  need to be prepared to pay, on the other hand, he may wish to stay and work on himself and relationships. Either way, perpetrating The abusive cycle corrodes my self esteem and health, also badly impacts the children. Stopping abuse is first and foremost priority.

Stopping abuse is first and foremost priority.



Put this in an "I" sentence. You can not control his actions. You can not stop what he chooses to do.

What actions can you take to stop allowing him to abuse you? Use action sentences starting with "I"

I think you've got it.  Can you see how the two short sentences above are basically the same thing. 

How on earth can you solve (fill in the blank) when bleeding is going on.  This is triage.  Stop the bleeding with I sentences

Now... what I wanted you to see in Notwendy's posts



Yes.  However, I think there is lots of justification and "letting yourself off the hook" for making choices for him.

I hope this analogy works.  Let's assume your child can't tie their shoes.  So... .you tie them for him because you are in a hurry.  Next day you tie them as well because you just got an important call.  Next... .a sibling had an emergency.

You now have a middle aged child and you are frustrated that the child won't tie their shoes properly.

How do you go about helping the shoe situation get better?


FF

I sleep in another room so I can get enough much needed sleep which is a necessity. I don’t hear his insults and my mental health is not deteriorating further.
I don’t call or engage him in a conversation I know will only take an ugly turn.
I don’t control his whereabouts, he if he chooses to snort coke or hire prostitutes those are his legal choices. If he goes out and I suspect he has been under influence or unfaithful, even if he comes back I don’t have to sleep with him, or I can ask him to take an std test.
I should attend co dependent anonymous and take accountability for my actions.
I can and should walk away any time he berates or insults me
I will go to see a lawyer and find out my absolutely worse scenario and prepare for it. Doesn’t mean it will actually happen, but if I’m prepared, I’m no longer afraid
I can take my life off of hold and start seeing friends, take my children to movies or other affordable entertainment, without feeling like a “single mom”.
I can stop waiting for him to come around.


Wendy, I also realized the bigger pattern. Loosing my dad the way I did, made me imprint on uBPDh as a surrogate parent. How can someone truly hate or disobey their dad? That’s what kept the abuse so long. Not the kids, not the finances, not the fears of infedelity. I’m reliving my childhood trauma, of my dad not loving me because I’m not good enough and remind him of my mom. I’m trying to save something that is ultimately unrealistic. It’s all doom and gloom in my sight

Show them how to do it and give plenty of time and praise as a reinforcement when they try

Before things can get better the conflict has to stop.

The way to stop the conflict is to stop participating in it with him.

The way to stop participating is establish boundaries.

Boundaries.  Boundaries.   Boundaries.  

@ff,
Continuing
I can model positive model of interaction
I can speak in a friendly matter
I can ask ? Non triggering questions or make remarks (everything is.  A Trigger at this point. From what kids to to what we eat (ideas?)
I can stay close to home as not to trigger his abandonment?

I don’t know what to do (crying emoji)

Ducks, what are the boundaries?

I often share this simple boundaries analogy over on my home board, but thought it might help here too.

A little kid asks mom for candy, mom says no so the kid pouts.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom says no so the kid whines.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom says no this time kid has a full on melt down screaming tantrum. What happens if mom gives in and gets the candy?  That little kid has just learned that having a screaming tantrum will get them what they want.  What happens if mom doesn't give in? The kid learns that no means no and he gives up. (It should also be added here that the little kid will likely ask for candy again the next time they go to the store... .the boundary will be tested every so often the key is consistency)

So yes if you don't immediately give into your husbands demands, needs, wants things might escalate for a time and in your case your husband uses FOG primarily to control. But if you hold your ground he will eventually learn what is and what isn't acceptable to have a more successful relationship with you.

(https://marklipinskisblog.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/love-yourself-enough-set-boundaries-anna-taylor-quotes-sayings-pictures.jpg)

More on boundaries (in case you haven't seen these already)
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0

The boundary in my little story above is candy isn't good for the little kid, so mom isn't allowing him to have it.

A boundary you might set is when your husband is yelling and berating you, you tell him that you need to take a break to calm down (go for a walk) and go do it (don't wait to get his permission, don't change your mind, don't discuss it - don't JADE).  Your boundary here is I will not stand here and be yelled at I will take a break and return to the discussion when everyone has calmed down and we can have an adult discussion.

Panda39

I have read theories that we can reenact our childhood traumas in a romantic relationship and I think it is fair to say I also looked at a romantic relationship for the kind of love I wished for as a child. At the heart of this though- is that the issues we dealt with as children are our own- nobody else can fix them for us, not even the most loving partner in the world. If we seek our parent in them, and our parent was hurtful to us- we will also either seek this out in our partners, perceive it in our partners, or choose partners who repeat the same patterns with us.

I think it is crucial that you recognize this about yourself as- knowing this, you will be able to ( with help and support from counseling ,your CODA group) - take care of this issue - and recover from it. Once you are able to manage it- you won't see or seek this pattern with your H or any other partner. If we don't recognize that this issue is really about us, not the other partner- we won't take responsibility for our own emotional recovery and are at risk for repeating the same pattern with another partner.

I think I have posted before about a friend I had who had escaped an abusive husband. The perspective was that once she escaped him the abuse would end and she would start over with a clean slate. She started dating again. I met some of her dates- very nice men, but she had no chemistry with them. Then, she started dating a man who had issues. He drank a lot. She started drinking too. I wasn't married then, I was young, but she left an impression on me. I would not blame the victim- her H was the bad guy to me, but I wondered why this friend- this nice person, pretty, talented, somehow was only attracted to guys who were not good for her and not attracted to guys who would be.

I didn't understand this until much later- reading about my own marriage issues that were similar ( thankfully not as severe) as some of the issues I experienced with my own BPD mother. I had taken my childhood hurts into my marriage and looked to my H as being able to give me the love she could not. My H also took his own childhood hurts into the marriage and looked to me to soothe those. We both failed to do that- because we were destined too. Another person can not do this for us. We have to do this.

We didn't have some of the issues your marriage has but the pattern of conflict was similar- as it is described for relationships here. I also needed to stop the bleeding between us. He was not going to stop- because in this situation I was the enabler, the fixer, the soother- and keeping him from learning to self soothe and face the consequences of his actions. The more I tried to fix and be a doormat, the more he treated me like one. I understand how it feels to have low self esteem and to feel like you lost yourself trying everything you can to fix a relationship. Why should someone stop behaviors that are being enabled? They won't.

My co-dependency sponsor didn't support me in a warm and fuzzy way. Many times she really made me angry and so did a counselor I was seeing. They didn't console me. They would not allow me to take victim perspective- and this seemed cruel. I wasn't the one being mean here. But they taught me something valuable. Victim perspective is emotionally disempowering. It doesn't lead to any solutions and it perpetuates the dysfunction. They did something similar to what I am doing here. Only allowed me to use "I " sentences and they went further- they made me the problem. That made me mad. How could I be the cause of all this? But taking this perspective helped lead me to do the necessary emotional work I needed to do on my own issues.

Your father abandoned you. As a child, you saw this as having something to do with you. You imagined you had the power to change this or fix this by doing something- more fixing, more cooking, more foot rubbing, more soothing. I did too. I imagined that if only I was good enough, mommy would love me. Kids are magical thinkers.

The truth is- what your father did had nothing to do with you and everything to do with his own issues. You were powerless over his choices, just as you are also not able to control your H's choices with more of the things you do to "fix" things. But what you are capable of doing is "fixing" you. Look at all that time, effort and energy you put into soothing your H. What if you focused some of that on working on you? I think you would be very capable.

Dear NotWendy,
Thank you for sharing your experience with me and the process of overcoming your own dependence. I have made attempts in the past to seek help, only any kind of relationships need time. Including the therapeutic ones. I only ran to a therapist when I had a hole to patch with uBPDh. I need to adapt more commuted outlook to the entire treatment. Wednesday’s are coda groups, it’s my chance of getting started.

Snowglobe,

My impression is that you can "intellectually" understand what Notwendy has written and I have highlighted.

That is somewhat different than "believing" it or "believing" it applies to you.  My guess is that transitioning from your current "way of thinking" or "way of approaching" the world is going to take support from several different "angles".

I do get the vibe that you understand your current pathway is not working.  What I see that worries me some is that you "jump" from big picture thought to "tell me what to do in this one particular situation".  It goes unsaid (I believe) but the intent is to "Fix" that situation.

Notwendy

I hope what I just wrote made sense.  Can you share "tipping points" in your own journey?  Perhaps the top couple things that helped you switch your "worldview".

FF

FF- it was several things- it didn't happen all at once. It evolved over time.

With my marriage, I emotionally burned out. I was trying so hard to do everything I could without getting results, and eventually, I felt there wasn't any emotional energy left to try. I think this is called "hitting bottom".  I didn't deliberately pull my attention from my H or the marriage- as a way to affect him. It just happened. I had small children at home and my H wasn't wiling to help much, so I was with them all the time and once they went to bed, mostly all I wanted to do was sleep too. I did the "shut up sex" thing a lot- if I wanted to sleep then just do it- otherwise there would be a big night time argument and no catch up sleep for me as I needed to be up in the am.

The marriage didn't include deal breakers for me, but he was treating me like cr@p. Verbal abuse, silent treatment, not coming home until late at night ( he was not home much) not spending time with me. Yet, since I grew up with this treatment, I didn't recognize this as abuse. On the positive- he was a responsible provider. He has traditional values and felt it was desirable to have me be a stay at home mom.( even if he didn't respect me), he didn't physically abuse me, no drugs or alcohol abuse, no infidelity,no criminal behavior and he is not racist/antisemitic. The issues were mainly between us- he is good to the children. I also don't think he meets full criteria for BPD but does have some of the tendencies .All of these are pluses and so I felt there were reasons to not break up the marriage even if things were not good between us. He also didn't indicate he wanted to end the relationship. I didn't understand why, if he didn't like me, or want to treat me well, why didn't he just leave?

Here is where- he had to have some investment in the relationship. I didn't have it any more. I was too emotionally drained.  He could have walked out. I guess he finally noticed. ( it took a while) and eventually agreed to see an MC. It was the MC who got me into co-dependency groups. However, had he chosen to leave the marriage, I knew I had to accept that he makes his own choices and deal with that if it happened.

Another ah ha moment was not related to the marriage. My father had gotten ill, and I went to help out. I had not spent any time alone with my BPD mother in probably decades- maybe since I was a kid. I always visited in a group- with my family, siblings, or her family or my parents together. I had no idea just how much my father's emotional caretaking influenced her behaviors. This time, I was alone with her in the house for about two weeks. Dad was in the hospital. Naturally she was stressed, but BPD mom unattended was terrifying. As a kid, I saw all the behaviors but she managed to convince me that I was the reason for them, that she was perfectly fine. A kid would believe this. However, I was not a kid, and had an adult perspective and what was going on was truly mental illness as she was disassociated much of the time. I finally was able to see how her behaviors had nothing to do with me being "good enough". I tried all I could- fixed meals, helped my parents, yet it never was good enough. I couldn't fix "mommy". I also then realized that taking this wish into my marriage didn't "fix" it either.

This doesn't mean I don't do nice things. I still cook, I still even do nice things for my mother, but they come from a different place. My own values. I don't do them to fix things or make people be what I want them to be through my actions. I accept that they have their own choices and limitations. I then have to make my own decisions. I recognize that my H is still capable and also willing on his own accord to have a relationship with me but also that my mother is too mentally ill to have the kind of relationship with me that I wish I could have. I needed to stop trying to control this by trying to be good enough and just act on my own ideas of what good enough is- and know that I all I can do is the best I can regardless of how she or my H or anyone else think of me.

@Ff, I’m having really hard time staying calm, intellectually I understand what I need to do. Yet, I’m triggered severely, to the point of shaking in my own fear and anxiety. He woke up in the bed mood, which always triggers me. He came down holding the insurance form, which I by accident left in now “his” bedroom. I said politely “good morning”, - no reply. “There is the form, I was looking for it”. He turned the corner and I didn’t see him packing, no coffee, no breakfast, second day in the row he wakes up, gets ready and leaves the house. When he was leaving I asked “where is the form” - I intended on filling it out as I always do the paperwork. “In your ass”, he replied and left. As soon as the door was shut I broke down in sobs. Even abstaining from the drama creates more drama. I read Thebes article on fog last night. He fits the bill for “punisher” to a T. If it’s not his way, he discards people out of his life. He did that to his parents and never went back to apologize. It’s a cycle with him, if people disappoint him on any level he cuts them out of his life. If they crawl and beg, as they have in the past he takes them back. If they don’t, he replaces them with other enablers. Ff, how do I stay strong?

It isn't easy to accept reality. This is a man who treats you this way and says the things he says to you. You have two choices- accept this behavior, crawl at his feet and fulfill his demands with the hope that he'll keep you around to treat like this, or decide you do not want to be treated this way and risk him making the choice to stay or leave.

I don't think I was strong. I think I had had enough. Enough from my H, enough from my mother. I decided I had had enough. I left their choices in their hands. I didn't know what they would be.

I mentioned my codependency group/sponsor used tough love. They didn't tell me how to be strong. They asked me " have you had enough of this yet? ". If not, I could keep on doing the same things I was doing. If I had, I could try something different- not knowing the outcome. I knew the outcome of the behaviors I was doing.

I didn't do this alone. I had a sponsor. It was tough love but it was love and honestly, I remain grateful that someone loved me like this. I think it is great to post here. Can you imagine a live person to call - to talk to you in a way that helps you to take steps to help yourself in addition? I had a sponsor and a whole group to help me do this. I wasn't strong. I had them. Isn't your group on Wednesday nights? Go, get  a sponsor, stay long enough to do the work. Get a counselor- not to fix your marriage or your H, but to fix the pain that your father created when he left the family- so this pain can't be triggered by anyone else.

Yes, I will be brave tonight and ask for help.

I will be thinking about you! It isn't easy to ask for help but you will find that people there are willing to help you.

You are already strong. Look at what you endured. When you take that endurance and strength you have given to your H , and give some of that to you, you will realize you are strong enough.  It may not be easy, it will take some work, but you have it in you.

I’m cycling between emotions, sadness, longing to be next to him, wanting to be loved so badly it hurts. Doing “magical” thinking in my head; what if he comes home and speaks to me... .then I acknowledge the fact that it’s rediculous thought of being simply spoken to nicely. I can’t help how badly I miss him. In this entire time it has been going on, close to a month, 3 weeks exact, I’m getting so broken and despairing. Are these normal?

Yes of course - all these feelings are normal. You’re human. Feelings are what they are - no need to judge them. It ok to feel them.

My life is a non stop cycling drama, I could not have imagined it, or dreamed even if I tried.
My mother, almost recovered histrionic, who has been in a remission for a while had a nervous breakdown/panic attack. Now, that she is at the lost of loosing her “cushion”, she is calling me a bitch, and yelling at saving my 17 year old marriage. She “acted out” heart attack, when at the emergency all of her blood work and ecg came back normal, she said that “you are trying to kill me”?. Through stress, and said she is moving out immediately, to stay for now at my grandma’s. I feel like I’m on a episode of Jerry Springer.

Please delete previous reply:

My life is a non stop cycling drama, I could not have imagined it, or dreamed even if I tried.
My mother, almost recovered histrionic, who has been in a remission for a while had a nervous breakdown/panic attack. Now, that she is at the risk of loosing her “cushion”, she is calling me a bitch, and yelling at me for “saving my 17 year old marriage” ( as if anyone other then two people can, she could not save hers). She “acted out” heart attack, we went to the emergency, all of her blood work and ecg came back normal, she said that “you are trying to kill me”?. (Accusations, insults, name calling) she is dysregulated because she will not be getting paid, and that “her” comfortable life came to an end. I can not and will not go into too many details, let’s just say that once my uBPDh entered the picture she got better. Once he “made it big” she went into complete recovery. Very little worry and anything other then helping me raise the children. She is a very good grandma to them, very hands on. Caring and mostly attentive. My step dad has no mental disorder, so together they were able to provide my children mostly stable home, better then my uBPDh for certain. Once the doctor diagnosed stressful setuation, she got up, as if nothing has happened in the last two hours and announced that she is moving out immediately, and won’t stay another minute in “this house”, my dad had to drive her to my maternal grandma who lives alone.  I feel like I’m on a episode of Jerry Springer.  Unpdh disregulated everyone and sent flying to stratosphere. Mom showed her true colours. I’m keeping my composure for now, someone has to be an adult and set example of “everything will be fine and always work out” to the children. There is a reason as to why I married off at 17, today I was reminded just why. As soon as there is a threat in the horizon, I suddenly become “a bitch” in mommy dearest books. Just as I began to walk out to the coda meeetibg, she was yelling “stroke, heart attach... .attention seeking, fog, make things better with uBPDh because every thing is your fault”

I'm sorry you went through that. I'm actually not surprised. It isn't unusual for a member here to have at least one parent with a disorder. These issues tend to be intergenerational. How we grow up influences our choice of partner. This doesn't mean we are only destined to this kind of thing- but it does mean we have some personal work to do. As children, we learn coping behaviors that "worked" in our FOO, but they were also dysfunctional. We can learn new ones.

I asked you before if your D was in your situation, would you expect her to tolerate how your H treats you for your own security. I had hoped that your parents would support you emotionally in your situation. Since your mother isn't from this country, it makes sense that one marries off a daughter for economic security. Some cultures did that, and still do that, but even so, they probably don't anticipate abuse. This doesn't mean you have to tolerate abuse. This is a different time, and a different country.

It's a shock to see old behaviors that you thought were stable. I had a similar experience when my father got ill. I hadn't seen my BPD mother behave like she did for a long time. I don't know if your mother has BPD or not, but this episode and calling you a "B" at this time is off the wall. I think these types of behaviors can be exacerbated by stress and also changes but that doesn't make you responsible for her stress.

You are a parent now of a teen almost your age when you got married. It was an eye opener to me to become a parent and realize that some of the things I experienced from my own mother were not anything I would do to a child. It must have been a shock for you this evening.

@NotWendy,
As I mentioned in the previous reply, my life from 15-16 yo was a constant fight for survival. New culture, new language, new customs, mother who is acting out, or leaving me. Once uBPDh came into my life, the relationships began to shift into a better direction. As bad as it may sound, his abuse wasn’t as bad as the one she inflicted on me. He began to build up our life, she seemed recovered. There weren’t a lot of dramatic gestures, name calling or outbursts, the financial security, as I now see it, became a strong boundary she didn’t want to loose. Now, I’m sure not maliciously, she is manipulating me to act in a way that suits her needs. I’ve already contacted family clinical psychologist, that worked with my family on number of issues, from son’s disability to d15 issues. I will have a sit down chat with him about “my needs and what I want”. Frankly, neither my mom (step dad is super hands on, supportive and leveled headed) not my unpdh are good for my mental health. So I’m going to leave her (my mom) where she is at, and have her sort out her issues. It’s awe fullly “convenient” to throw a fit the night before my medical procedure, she knows I’m going under, she knows there will be pain, discomfort, yet, for either uBPDh or her it’s about them.
It’s all good, there is uber, uBPDh will have to get the kids from school, I’ll give instructions to d15 how to feed herself and her brother.
At this stage in my life, in a bigger strokes, I just want peace and stability. I want zen and acceptance, I want to find my inner strength to stop thinking of other people, and for once take care of myself

As I mentioned in the previous reply, my life from 15-16 yo was a constant fight for survival. New culture, new language, new customs, mother who is acting out, or leaving me.


Mine was too, minus the new country. Economically - I don't think I was as worried about basic survival, but BPD mom's spending had gotten the family into debt and the emotional tension was evident.


Once uBPDh came into my life, the relationships began to shift into a better direction. As bad as it may sound, his abuse wasn’t as bad as the one she inflicted on me.

I didn't get married until much later. I can relate to the fact that my H has treated me much better than my mother did. Still, there were things I realized much later that were not kind or loving. It was all relative to what I was used to.


She seemed recovered

I had this illusion too. I was not living near my parents, and my father provided a lot of emotional/financial support for her. I realize now that there were issues, I just didn't see them.


Now, I’m sure not maliciously, she is manipulating me to act in a way that suits her needs.


Mine does that, I don't know if there is malicious intent or not, but she perceives me as a way to get her needs met. I remain grateful that my father provided for her.

I’ve already contacted family clinical psychologist, that worked with my family on number of issues, from son’s disability to d15 issues. I will have a sit down chat with him about “my needs and what I want”. Frankly, neither my mom (step dad is super hands on, supportive and leveled headed) not my unpdh are good for my mental health.

Yes! I had to arrive at this conclusion- it is hard to realize that the people closest to you are not behaving in ways that are good for you. Eventually we have to consider our own well being. We can still care about others but we have to take care of our own mental health.


So I’m going to leave her (my mom) where she is at, and have her sort out her issues.



Yes!  These are her issues.

It’s awe fullly “convenient” to throw a fit the night before my medical procedure, she knows I’m going under, she knows there will be pain, discomfort, yet, for either uBPDh or her it’s about them.



My mother tends to act up at times where people are not focused on her. She's acted up at graduations, other family events, if anyone isn't feeling well.


It’s all good, there is uber, uBPDh will have to get the kids from school, I’ll give instructions to d15 how to feed herself and her brother.

Yes, they can manage



At this stage in my life, in a bigger strokes, I just want peace and stability. I want zen and acceptance, I want to find my inner strength to stop thinking of other people, and for once take care of myself


Make copies of this! Keep one in your purse, in your car, in a book, on your phone. This is a statement of intent and affirmation. Read this whenever you are feeling afraid or losing your resolve, or triggered!