BPDFamily.com

Hi all !
I am a 35 year old (Finnish native) guy and I found this forum about 6months ago but this is my first post. Something happened during this xmas that is hard to cope so I decided to share my story and maybe get a new perspective.

I met my ex for the first time at 2014 autumn. She just broke up with some dude that she was engaged with. The guy left him for someone else (later on I heard that it was because she did push and pull games so the guy eventually had it) few weeks back.
Therefore I said to her that "it is not maybe wise for us to build a relationship while you`re still hurting and devastated" but she insisted that we should try and get to know each other.

In quite early stage she said that she has been diagnosed with BPD during her therapist (college) study time. In Finland there is a mandatory 1year therapy for every graduating therapist. I believe that it was not a surprise to her because she have abused and got abused in very bad way in the past in previous relationships. She had anorexia and other tough issues during her study time.I believe that she went to study therapy because she wanted to understand her psyche.
At the time I did not know what BPD means and I did not know until 6 months after our breakup. I tried to figure out what went wrong and I recalled that he was diagnosed with this and I started to investigate more.
Back to the story.So in early stages I started to notice that something is not right. Apart from occasional crying that was caused by her previous engagement, she acted very impulsive and I felt that she tested me from the beginning. She love bombed me from the very first day but every now and then, she dropped small bombs.
I remember one time at the very beginning that she asked that (we did not use any birth control although we were cautious) "what would happen if she got pregnant ?". I was honest when I said to her that, I would not mind that if she would go threw the abort process because we have only known each other for few weeks but If she decided to keep the child, of course I would be there for her and build a relationship/family with her. She got angry and said that, "if she`s pregnant, she could never be with me and would leave me because my first thought was to encourage to do abort". I was quite stunned, that is not what I meant.

Time passed and during this time every week she yelled me for some random reason. If I called her at the wrong time, if I did not text her enough during work time (?) or did not talk with her through a phone to late hours... .there was always something. I simply could not make her happy, or at least I felt that way. One time we agreed that we`re Friday evening together and watch some movies. And when Friday came, I told her that I go for a dinner with my friend (male friend) at 17pm and I pick her up after that. She cried over 1h when she heard this. She yelled to me that "I always break all the promises etc."I could not believe what I`m hearing. The dinner with my friend lasted like 1h and still we had fight that lasted like 6h

After 1 year of our relationship, my friend had a party that we were invited to. In there party there was this one girl that I have had sex with but I have not been in relationship with the girl. Well, I said to my ex that we don`t have to go because of this (possible) unsuitable environment for her. But she insisted that we should go.Ok, After she had put make up on and we were ready to leave to the party, she said that she did not want to go. I said that let us just go because we already said that we would come. She accepted to go there but during taxi drive, she started crying. I said to taxi driver that turn around, we are not going anywhere. She kept on crying and said, yes we will go ! After we got up from the taxi, she said that let`s see if we are a couple tomorrow ? I was very afraid and I tried to calm her down. We went inside and I tried constantly touch her and be next to her. She did not even look at me and when I went outside for a smoke, she started to tell my friends that I have called her narcissist (not true) and how bad person I was. Well, luckily my friends could not buy that and they came to me straight away and told me what she had said. I confronted her and I asked why would you tell such lies to my friends, she did not answer anything. At this point, I did not even know what narcissist really meant and I have not ever said to her such things.

Similar cases happened every now and then. She lied behind my back and when I confronted her, she didn`t say anything sensible. He just tried to manipulate or tried change the subject.
Every week was like this more or less. But the sex was the best sex I`ve ever had in my life and sometimes she knew how to say the words I want to hear. She was very intimate and loving (which melt always my heart) but out of the blue, it always changed.

I decided to move with her after 1,5y relationship (it took that long because I did not trust her and could not understand why she would abuse me). Quite fast our relationship went from bad to worse. When we went out, she flipped every single time. The arguments lasted always 5h or more... She would not let me sleep and sometimes I had to sleep in my car because she would not let me. Sometimes she came after me with bare feet (in the winter) without a key and said that If I would not come home she would freeze and it would be my fault. Obviously I always came back inside because I didn`t want my neighbors to see it.

My friends asked me, why in hell I stay in this kind of relationship, but I was in love.I have never loved a person like that but she drove me nuts. I did not bend, ever. If she acted badly, I threw that in her face.I did not say any disrespectful unless she have had do something first.this is why I play this "if" game.what if I would have bent?

Worst thing was that she did not ever explode in public, apart from few fortunate cases. She literally exploded and was physically abusive in front of my friends few times. If those situations would not happened, no one would have ever believed me. Thank god, few times it did happen. I said to her few times, that if she does not change her behaving towards me, we should break up. At this time she bought an apartment so he could move there fast if I break up with her. After she bought the apartment, I felt that she manipulated me to fight with her so she would have a reason to move away. Everything I said or did, made her angry and she accused me. I could not understand... .During this time she also started to hang out with her new best friend (she have lost many friends during our relationship) and they kept many parties over her friends house. I was not ever invited. There were some random dudes and girls having good time, meanwhile I was home alone basically relieved so I could breath but I was also afraid at the same time.

After 2,5y I said to her that she must move to her apartment (which was empty for 6mth) because I could not take it anymore. After we decided to break up, we decided that we would try once again so that we will live in separate apartments.

Well, that was not a good idea. On top what I had experienced before, she started to say that (every other day) maybe we should break up? One time she got wasted in a bar and kissed some random dudes. After that I said that this is enough, let us break up.

Few weeks passed and I noticed that I did not want to live without her. I thought that I could change her with my own attitude changes. I send her a 100€ flower delivery to her work place with a note, that " I could not live without her, I`m sorry let us be together". Well, agreed to see me and it was a warm welcome. We had sex and everything was fine... .But after few days she started the same thing all over again... ." MAYBE we should not see each other anymore? "... .sometimes she was warm but we were not in a relationship. We just had sex... .

I chased her over 2 months and after that I had it. I went to bar and there this one gal asked my phone number. I gave it to her but we did not kiss or anything. Day after that my ex calls me that she want`s to see me. We had sex and he had this warm moment, again. She agreed that we should try once more. I told her that I have given my number to this random girl but I did not do anything with her (mistake ?). She exploded.

Even though we were not couple, she exploded and yelled " how I could do this"... meanwhile she gets drunk every weekend and kisses random dudes.

Now my ex forced me to see that random gal. I said to her, that I love her and I don`t want to see anyone other than her. We fought 3 days about this. She said that she won`t talk to me before I go see this random lady and see if I get some feelings towards her. At this point I was very angry and I said to her, If you want me to go see this lady, it may involve sex etc. I could not see anyone or trick anyone to this twisted game. I really hoped that my ex would have backed down, but she only said that if you want to have sex with her, then so be it.

I was very angry and sad. I had used my whole summer vacation chasing her and this is my reward... .At this point my friends told me told leave and run away from her (we were not together at this point). So I did, I was so angry... .

I went to see this random gal and I had sex with her. The mistake that I regret the most... .I know that when I did this, I crossed a line even though we were not together.

After I did it, I cried through phone to my ex and was honest about it. I said that it was a mistake and I was just so angry, I was so fed up of everything. But she wanted me back... .for a while that is ! After I wrote to this girl who I had sex with, that "I got back together with my ex", my ex exploded. She wanted me to close the door first and then she was free to start the same ___ all over again. She accused me of everything that have happened. Obviously she was partially right, I broke something. We broke up... .During this break up, we had sex numerous times. One of these occasions, she asked me to "finish the job" so that we would get a baby (I did not wear condom). Of course I refused... .thank god !

Few weeks passed and I crawled  back to her (at this point we both were in tinder). I said that I would do anything if she would take me back. The truth is, I`ve never wanted to with any other girl than my ex, but she drove nuts and I made a mistake.
After we had sex, she said that if I close my tinder, she would talk to me about getting back together. I said to her, that we both should close our tinder accounts and get back together, but she refused. She said that I must do it, before we could talk. I kinda laughed because I noticed that once again she tried to fool me meanwhile she can do whatever she pleases. She left my apartment and slammed the door. She called me from a bus that " I`m sorry, I want to be with you etc.". I said to her that think a few days, so that I know for a fact that she wants to be with me.

After a day, she texted me from a party (where she hang out the summer 2017) while she was drunk. That she wants to get back with me. I replied and repeated myself that, she should think this over because I could not take this push/pull anymore.

4 days passed and I texted him. I noticed right away, that something has happened. I called to her, and she admitted that she slept with someone. I immediately guessed who it was (my wrestling partner from a rival wrestling club). I totally lost it... .We have had conversations about this dude before. I remembered that my ex asked 12 months earlier if I knew the guy and we talked about it. (later on I realized that 12 months earlier everything started to go south in our relationship, what a coincident).

She did not tell to the bloke, that she knew me. I wrote to that guy and explained that we were a couple and we have tried to solve and salvage our relationship. He basically said, I`m sorry... .but I`m not angry towards him... it is not his fault that my ex decided not to tell what is the situation. I must clarify that I do not know the guy well, I just know him by name and we chat every time when we meet but we don`t hang out.

My heart exploded... .I could not eat and I could not sleep. I removed my ex from the FB and almost all of her friends. After I cried non stop for couple of hours I called to my ex. I tried to win her back. She said that she needs room now and she does not know what to do.

Next weekend I saw my ex at a bar (last time that I have seen her). This was mid November 2017... .Her reaction was inhuman to say at the least... She just stared me like "why are you so sad/what`s wrong with you". He just acted like nothing happened... .I broke down. I left the bar and text to her that I need an answer if she wants to get back with me and I would not forgive her if she would check if that dude is viable partner in crime.

Few weeks passes and I notice that few of her friends remove me from FB (the friends that I have not removed myself during my broke down). I contacted to my ex and she said that we shall go to our separate ways... .I said "thank you" and I have not heard of him since (personally).

After 3 months of their dating they made a trip to USA. Driving with a convertible through Route 66. Funny that this was my dream, I told my ex that I have this dream and I would love go with her and do this. And after 3 months she does it with another dude... .Obviously I broke down. This was in February or something... .Of course she posted 10 social media photos in public so that everyone could see it, including me.

And she is a psychotherapist... .as if she knew how to hurt so that I would go insane, which I luckily didn`t because of my job... .my job kept me alive.

I looked back our relationship and I could not understand what went wrong, besides the obvious things. Obviously I made mistakes also, but I did not want anything else to be with her and that she would respect me. I have been in a 10 year relationship before (+shorter ones) so I knew instantly that this is not normal. Luckily she said in the beginning that she had BPD. Now I think that I may have had more tools to save the relationship if I only had understand the condition.

Even though my friends said after they saw how she acts, that I should leave her... .they were surprised that she could do this. I did not get a closure because I did not get a chance to talk with her face to face after she did what she did.  

This relationship was the best and worst that I`ve had. I`ve never experienced the warmth, the insanely good sex and we had good laughs... she always said that she haven`t ever felt that way either (idolization... .I know). I miss her and I can not let go.

During writing, I realized that you may judge me... .that I got what I deserved. But all I can say that I asked my ex 100 times that why she treats me like this while I love her more than anything. Still I get shi* poured upon me. I honestly tried... .I made a mistake but he made me seriously mad. I know that she knew how to manipulate me to act like shi*, she have bragged about her manipulation skills.

The reason why I wrote now to this forum is that yesterday I found out that they live together with the same wrestling dude. I broke down. It has been 1year and 2 months since we broke up.

I`m not stupid, of course I realize that she is toxic... at least towards me. And I`m better without her.

I`m very depressed now. Partially because I want a family and I`m 35years old. My ex wants a family also and she is one year younger than me. That tells me that they are going to have a baby quite soon.

My therapist said that thank god the person is not anymore in my life and I can start a normal relations ship with someone new. She`s right but I can`t start anything new before I stop thinking my ex. And firstly, I must stop stalking them vai FB

Let me add that, when she did not want to see me after she had sex with my acquaintance, I sent her my photo and she started to cry. She did not know what to do at the moment. I think that she started dating that dude because she knew that I would have not forgive her ? Does that make sense... ? or is it just play to keep me interested and around until she confirms that the new guy is available ?

Would it have make a difference to the outcome, if I`d have bent during relationship ? Meaning, If I`d ever confronted her abusing... .? I`m just broke because I can`t understand how the new relationship can work...

I have not been in contact with her after she made her decision. This has been asked 1000 times but do they (BPD persons) have urge in some point to contact me ?  I know that early this year, she participated this event I was supposed to go (and she knew it) but I did not went there. This was before her USA trip so maybe she just wanted to rub that to my face... .who knows.

I have read dozens of your posts and the posts have been a enormous help. I just can`t implement other stories and conclusions to mine because I`m quite broken. I can`t understand how I`m suddenly nothing to her and how can the new guy be happy ? Or can they happy, if you look at my story ?

At one point (after 1,5y of our relationship) she understood that she has been acted like a crazy person. That is why she asked me to join a couple therapy with her. I did not agree because I was so hurt concerning what she did to me. I asked that she should go therapy by herself to determine why he`s unhappy and what is wrong etc... .I regret that decision from the bottom of my heart... .and I can`t get it back

hi Toughluck, and *welcome*

that is quite a story... .im glad you reached out, and i hope there was some relief in sharing whats been on your mind all this time. do i have it right that you were together for around four years?

Thank you!

We were together 3 years. Last 6 months were on/off basically.

This site has been a savior. Quite many things add up now after I have read more about BPD. She didn't love me... She just wanted security and I could not give it to her because I just can't (and couldn't) stand being abused.

My ex is wise and can understand what is happening when there is no stress involved. And her occupation helps her also. Time to Time, she acts like a crazy person. All of her relationships has ended at the same way. It all depends in my opinion how much her partners can stand the heat. But I should not think about how her life is going after this all happened... .But I'm not there yet. I'm still hurt

i can imagine so. my relationship was just shy of 3 years, and it took me a good while to recover and heal. these things have to be grieved.

it sounds like theres a lot youd like to say to her. have you considered putting it in an unsent message?

Sad you to hear that you've had rough times also! But good thing that you're over it, gives me hope (and to others)

You're right! I would have quite much to say to her but I'm mostly looking for some kind of validation and understanding... .I know that won't ever happen if I'd even send a letter to her. That I know that she accuses me of everything. She has spread the word that I'm root cause for pur break up. Even I've looked numerous times to her eyes and asked "why you treat me like this and why do you these things to me while you say you love me and I love you"... .

Maybe I should write a letter that represents my feelings and what I'm going to through... .because involving her in any way, would not help... .

Thanks!

i can definitely tell you that it does get better. much. we can go on to be stronger than ever before.

a lot of members write letters where they say everything they want, but dont send them. what do you think of that? would it help?

I think it is a good idea

Once you write the letter, print it out and burn it.

I’ve read, and as well experienced... .the actual flame that renders the letter to ashes is quite good therapy... .closure ina way... .

Maybe you should try this... .I have a chiminea in my back patio, perfect !

My previous relationship and marriage was over eleven years in duration... .

Hang tough” Toughluck!

You are not alone my friend!

Red5

Thank you all ... .

I will do it before 2018 ends. Fresh start for the next year . I thought I hung long on top of the horse but 11 years☝️... That is a long time

how you holding up otherwise?

I think I`m getting better now. It took few days to gather myself up after I heard the news that she`s living with the guy.

It is quite hard to accept the fact, that there was no love. I spent a whole year hoping that she would come back. Although, I know that if she would have come back, I could not forgive her. So basically, I`m going circle with my mind :D... .Meaning, whatever the outcome would be, the end result is the same= We are not going to be a couple anymore. I should focus on that.

But it is hard ! I`ll try writing that letter, that you proposed.

I agree with the people that has said that a new hobby or a "new me" helps dealing with these things. I started singing after I broke up over an year ago (I`ve played guitar over 25years) so it is nice to get a positive feedback from everyone around you. It makes you feel good after your self esteem has gone down to a drain after this kind of break up.

Meanwhile, I read other stories as well. It really helps to understand that it is all about the condition (BPD), not the people who`s receiving the abuse.

what could the alternative have led to - still standing on the sidelines today - waiting - whilst she continued to live her life and do what she wanted?

you could still be waiting now in passive-spectator mode if you hadnt gone and done the 'mistake'.

hang in there, you have wishes like a family, but can you imagine if you had started with her too early if the offer was there, only to later find out that she can only love with appears unattainable. It would be wreckage to now clear up. Imagine how you felt when she kissed other guys, and this is on the basis you werent in a committed r/s with her, but then to discover these antics if you were.

wait to see what happens to this guy, remember what you said, she gloated how good she is at manipulating.

thats too unbaked and unreliable to be marriage material, you know it and its clear to anyone not emotionally involved

try to keep a perspective of the things you wanted, and the things you still want; did she ever fulfill truly. You had casual sex r/s but wanted more emotional commitment, tried to - it didnt work. So once a line under it is drawn, having tried and got to know her better and seen the results - theres now nothing to stop you pursuing these dreams with someone that has less likelihood of periodically delivering hurt and disappointment, keeping you in that limbo state and blocking you from real genuine emotional fulfillment you wanted.

new hobbies and learning new skills were one of the best pieces of advice i ever got. getting into old ones is good, gets us back to a sense of normalcy and being able to enjoy things, but new skills and hobbies rebuild and build confidence. its good stuff to sink our teeth into.

it does help knowing others have been through similar things. it kind of normalizes our surreal experiences. makes us feel less alone. i would really encourage you to not only read the threads of others, but join in, post to others too. its good to have a sense of community in recovery.

i would also suggest that these relationships can teach us a lot of things about ourselves. its good to learn the lessons we want to take into future relationships. in some time, id encourage you to do that work with us on the Learning (post Detaching) board.

i havent been with anyone since my ex, but i too got that feeling of being worried or regretful if i did something while we werent even together as if it could screw up something potentially, while she was doing whatever she wanted to do.  even now, i feel hesitant meanwhile she is literally in another relationship.  i dont know what that speaks to, if it is related to the proverbial walking on eggshells way of thinking, extended out even when the relationship is well over at the moment.  we dont have to be accountable for anything after it ended, even more so when we werent the ones who wanted the relationship to end.

we do have to be accountable to ourselves, and others. if we arent emotionally available to date, havent grieved, i think its important to honor that.

Absolutely, I meant any sort of accountability to the ex. Like I said, at various times and even now felt like I took what she might think or how she might react and how it would effect "us" into account and I just don't know why. I sort of felt like that's where toughluck was going with his statement, but I could be wrong.

You are right! Nothing would have changed during time. And I think that she never changes until she figures out that her insecurity is the root cause to all problems. She is in denial and she accuses everyone else from her actions. I would have lost my sanity in the long run. I guess I am a bitter still because I hope that her new relationship crashs and burns. It all depends on how flexible is the new guys back  

I can relate what you said Al. The reason why I feel/felt this way is because I wanted to fix the relationship. I did not want to make any permanent actions that would have destroyed the r/s. After I am 100% over her, I do not care what she thinks. Some (desperate) actions I still make, is to try to make her jealous... .Try to warm her heart towards me. Obviously I know that it does not work and it slows the process of detaching.

I have read this 10 times. Thank you! Am I a bad person because I want their r/s to end or have the same traits that we had? It is not fair that someone else gets different partner (a better one). I just tell to myself constantly, that these persons do not change! I truly hope that I'm right, easier to let go... .

the problem on the flip side is, if her relationship succeeds, does that mean you failed, or that the relationship ending is all your fault?

we all change some, from relationship to relationship... .ideally, we do a little better each time, though not always.

what is firmly in your power is to grieve and move on from this relationship, to happier, healthier relationships. it takes work, but its achievable.

The relationship has ended very recently and you are hurt. It is perfectly normal to harbor resentments and to wish that her new relationship doesn't last, and it also makes sense that you'd want her to be hurt, on some level. However, it is important to make a distinction between the emotional and the rational mind, and integrate them both peacefully. When you progress further in healing, you'll no longer have such negative feelings, but it takes time.

What do you think?

Thank you for keeping it real!
I agree you 100% with you, even though I may not be ready to receive/grasp this. I know that I'm not the one to blame for pur relationship to end. I know that I love(d) her and she pushed me away, and abused me, mainly mentally. I know that in a healthy relationship, you dont treat People like this way. But she has BPD, so that explains at least most of her doings.
I have strong hunch that she won't change therefore much depends on how the new guy reacts the traits. I myself push away if im being pushed... He may come closer... .I wish I had mechanics like that. Altough, it is not healthy for anyone

Maybe I feel like this because I cant let go. I must, but yet can't. I'm starting my therapy again and stop when I'm over her, not before.

i felt the same way... .it almost felt like a contest. it stands to reason that if we havent let go, we dont want to see the other person succeed... .at the very least we dont want to know about it!

once weve grieved and healed its a lot easier to say "we had our time, and our future success or failure has no bearing on each other", and maybe even wish them well. none of that happens over night.


the learning doesnt have to stop when youve finished grieving. if anything, its the best time to begin learning the lessons we want to take into future relationships.

It truly feels like a competition. Though I know I have Lost it because they're living together. Oh well, time will tell. And I think when something happens to the direction I now want, I do not care anymore.

When did your break up took place? How long ago?... .And which point you noticed that you don't care that much anymore?

These may seem stupid questions but I'm curious... .

Hey Toughluck,

Its important to try and reach this ground now that you have this distance. The reason I suggest it is because there are instances when you get the out of apparent nowhere message. This happened to me but the circurmstances were a bit different, we werent together but had been casual sex - then after about 4 months of occassionaly seeing each other she just vanished. 6 months later I got a text from a new number and from there is how the r/s had started, she had been in a r/s and been discarded but in the process had cut everyone she had once known out of her life. But from my perspective - (i didnt fully care or know the fine details) - I took the opportunity and it felt as if I had won in the sense where, you were attracted to someone but felt ok that they were seemingly out of your league. So when I first saw her again I was in for a surprise, she had put on a lot of weight and looked, walked and talked with a depressed demeanour that id not recognised. But after sometime seeing her, the old connection sparked back, I felt (or maybe it suited me to believe) her version of how badly she had been treated, she wasnt as attractive anymore as other girls but the emotional connection grew ultra fast to "compensate", and 3 months on, each day I felt as if the r/s emotionally and sexually was everything id wanted - in other words, i fell too quickly "In love" whereas my life before was happily single and casual sex, I finally felt with the connection it was "the one" had arrived by favourable planetary alignment. In other words, I got suckered in by well rehearsed manipulation, because of her desperate emotionally state at the time, she reached out to find solace from the abandonment... .NOT... .reaching out to love Cromwell who she had just cut out like a scythe to a field of corn along with all others. I dont know why i was chosen, but during the "friendship" phase she occassionaly put out some "suicide ideation" stuff and I comforted her, along with rescuing her a few times when she got into dangerous situations like drunk and abandoned. So I reckon she saw me as a safe-bet.

But it is all "objectification", and I just wanted to share with you to get insight that the feelings I had and what I believed were reciprocated, it wasnt. It might be hard for me to go to sleep at night and think that I wouldnt have feelings for someone beyond them being "useful" to me in a state of fulfilling my needs, however emotionally desperate rooted in vulnerability. but from what ive learned here, it does exist and it is what I believe happened now, in hindsight.

When you say about the "route 66" stuff, its part of taking on our interests and presenting them as theirs in origin, ie, its simple plagiarism to try to show a real-self in compensation for not having developed a real-self. Where the trouble starts is when a conflict arises between maintenance of the fake self and having to adapt to the demands of the perceived "what am I supposed to be for this new guy" - self.

It can work, it depends on how narcissistic the guy is, the more, the easier. He will decide for her who she is supposed to be.

Toughluck, thats just my own perspective and we have all been with different partners. I just feel a heads-up is helpful because if you have still similar strong feelings when/if that text or call comes - out of nowhere - (things happen for a reason), to maybe question the real reason as to why all of a sudden you are "in demand" and if it really is for the right reasons.

I'm sorry to hear. I too have to take insomnia pills, after the break up. Luckily I can work and have quite good job tbh. That is my salvation...

Where do you stand now? I mean, what is that you want and when have you heard of your BPD ex last time? Or are you just trying to leave your history behind (and move forward) and learn from it?

I'm not a safe bet to my ex. I was always realistic with her and I confronted her if she abused me. If her current r/s backfires, I don't think she'll contact me. Just 2 weeks ago her last remaining common friend that we had removed me from FB, after I posted a picture of me with a suit on and going to a party. I think that my ex saw that picture and she asked to cut the connection between us (they're close friends).

And you are spot on with the speculation that she does not have real self image. I noticed that from the beginning. She tries to be like a cameleont... .Even how she speaks differs on related to who she is talking to and she gets common hobbies straight away with persons that she is involved to.

My ex's new boyfriend is a opposite of narcissistic person. He is kind, shy and not successful person in life. I would describe that they are a miss match couple because they are in a different league on terms of education, social environment etc. I think he is a safe choice for her and she hopes that is why she never leaves from her side. I think it all comes down to, how much nasty things he can swallow. I could not, even though I was madly in love. I just could not understand how someone that you love, would hurt you like that. She even admitted that she wanted conficts time to time. There was 1 conflict per week... .Maybe those happened because I could not stand those silly fights and she somehow got fueled in those occasions. If I'd be strong enough not mind those, we would be still together... .Would it been fair towards me, No it would not.

Forgot to answer this... Yes I agree totally. I think that in time, I don't care their r/s goes. But I also think that if they would break up and she gets a new guy, I would not care anymore. This particular r/s hurts me because I know him and she knew that I would broke down if they start something... .

Hi Thouhluck,
I'm glad you've reached out to tell your story. I'm sorry you have to go through this.

Your story sounds so familiar to most members including myself.
I  don't believe you could have saved your r/s at all.
BPD is a very complicated illness and almost all of them never change, they're also not capable to talk about the illness or explain what they do and why.

It is most likely that her new r/s will end liķe yours.

I  would like to ask you to look up a few things to understand what happened to you.
First look up for 'Traumatic bonding' and then 'inner child'.

As others pointed out time will help you to get over her.
You should appreciate that the two of you don't have a child together. In most BPD cases children will develop pd as well.

I  wish you the best for 2019 and that you might find a great and healthy new partner.

in about a month, it will be eight years since we broke up.

we were together just short of three years, and i gave myself an arbitrary timeline of one year to get through it.

it took me about three-four months to decide for myself that the relationship was over and not coming back, and thats when i moved into really grieving and mourning, as opposed to just being an anxious mess. it got worse in some ways, before it got better, but thats when the healing started.

after 7-8 months, i started to move through the pain, focus more on myself, and rebuilding my life.

after about a year, i was mostly through it, and i started to date again. i made unmistakably, objectively bad choices, was hurt all over again, and started to realize maybe it wasnt just my ex, but me.

i came to bpdfamily, and i reexamined my relationship through a new lens, and i learned the skills here, for life, relationships, and for coping. today im kicking butt 

as for it feeling like a contest... .do you. be true to you. let her be her. when we tie the foundation of our recovery to an ex, and who succeeds or fails, nobody wins or loses, but we set ourselves up for failures in our own life.

hi TL,

Must have been very hard, I can relate very well with your experiences.

Seems that you already are quite analytical  and doing self searching too - that is very good, but on the other hand, sometimes the disorder is just what it is - a horrible disorder, disabling and sabotaging any  ‘normal’ relationships. The sufferers probably being even more miserable than ‘us’ ; they live in it every second, whereas we can at least choose, as difficult it might be.

Am actually ashamed to say that am still at the ‘ conflicted’ board myself, as the things and very bad turns are very recent ( to put it mildly). Have a look how horrible it might get ( see Vincenta on Conflicting).
Ps Btw I share your native language, but live as ex pat in mid- Europe (and other continents too)  for almost two decades now.

I Thank you for the bottom of my heart

Hi Vincenta!
Yes I have spent over year to figure out this and same time I've been thinking that did I ever had a chance really? Every passing day I'm more convinced that there was no other possible path for me, with the knowledge of that time. I will check your post there, thank you.

Ps.yesterday in new years eve, I had a date in a bar. While I was in queue and stepping inside,there was 5 of my ex's best friends. It was a good therapy for me because they saw me with this stunning lady, Who was all over me

That's the way to go. Great.

isnt this just the next move in a contest?

youve got a broken heart man. im sure it felt good, but it wont heal that.

I agree! Comfort that I got, passed already. But on the other hand, if I would have been there alone, it would have been very sad. I think it is good that people see that I move on.

And no one else can't heal me. I notice now that I may have some mental locks, that were not there before my last relationship. I have some kind of wall around me and no one can't pass until I'm free from the sadness.

Hi again Toughluck

even if the new r/s falls part, could you really find any true comfort or delight in it in practice?

I mean, it can be ego bruising to wonder what is it about the 'replacement' that we can only speculate must have more to offer and when/if that new r/s crumbles - it can be taken if we want as validation that they werent, or that our ex had chosen wrong. But in the big long term picture - what does it really make any difference unless the hope is to then go backwards and rekindle the relationship if she reaches out.

we never know what is really going on, all else staying equal she could just as well be doing this in her mind to make you feel jealous. Its just another theory and example, to counteract that our own perceptions of what is going on do not align.

You mentioned she went on a route 66 road trip, coincidentally what you had previously said to her you had wished to have done. Maybe she got inspiration from you, after all, there is a million and more other places and things she could have done, but she chose that experience.

its ok to feel sadness, you really liked her and wanted it to work out but she has BPD and was always going to be a very challenging r/s to try and navigate - with a very troubled person as chosen partner. The post topic is about her leaving for someone else, id guard against magnifying my own perceived 'faults' in my mind to try and explain why the r/s went wrong, I did this at a time I never properly knew just how established fact it is of how serious BPD is, I really had next to no clue of why so much felt like it was constantly failing and blamed myself far too much as the problem for it. Remember, she said she is a manipulative person, id take that personally as her giving out a pre-warning of behaviour that you cant later on be surprised at receiving, my ex was good at doing this too.

stuff like "i wont ever have a proper relationship"

became code words for; dont complain now if I go on and cheat on you, do whatever, you got your pre-warning.

Hi!
I honestly think that if the current r/s breaks down, I'd  be delighted because I know the guy. As I said, I do wrestling and it is akward to see him at the competitions etc. If the r/s comes to an end, and a new begings... .I think that I don't care anymore also because time has passed. But you are right that, If I'd be over from her... .I would wish her luck.


You are right. It can be so that in my subconsious mind, I'd like to keep my options open. This can (and is) hurtful because I can't close the door.



You are right! I should not think what is happening because I don't know all the facts.

For this I disagree. All of her published photos were taken from the situations that I described to her. This was calculated... .or all of this is quite big coincident. The fact is that 3 months had Only passed in their r/s... she ain't that of a traveller.


Sounds familiar... .I have done self assesment after when my previous 10 year r/s ended (she did not have any mental illness) . I can use mirror ... .You are right I guess the reason why I even posted this was to get somekind of validation that there was nothing wrong with me... .Of course I could have done somethings better, I am not perfect... .But for me to understand and conclude that it is all about the illness, not because I'm a lesser person than the new guy

Hi Toughluck

Sorry about my grammar at trying to discuss the Route 66 situation, I meant to explain that I also do not see it as a coincidence I believe that she did it because she knew it was something you had suggested. The only thing im not sure about is if she did it to manipulate you, I think from what I have learned my own belief is that it is more likely the reason is that she lacks her own solid sense of stable personality which then extends to having interests, hobbies, they get absorbed from others.

I understand you would feel happier if the r/s falls apart, the best advice I can give is to let it run its natural course and not be drawn in. The problem I can imagine is that if you still have feelings of wanting to be with her and she gets back in contact, it becomes then a Triangle, which is designed for her benefit to keep the relationship(s) going. My ex did this, her true objective she was after was to have as many options as she could maintain - and as I broke each new triangle, the best that would ever happen is she would create a new one.

 It is a tricky situation to be in, think about if she did leave him and come back to you - what is there to suggest that she ever truly has left him, if she comes back to you there is seemingly no reason she wouldnt do the same. Its why its ok to be optimistic and maybe wait and see what happens, but at the same time to not get ones hope too high just because there seems another chance is offered and it can feel tempting when our emotions and feelings are still strong for the person.

I agree with you 100%.

Thank you for the clarification. It is easy for me to say others that "run away" when you are being abused or mistreated. But it is hard to not to fall to that triangulation when you are living it yourself.

I can sense that you have learned quite much of your experience. Tough learning path though... .For me aswell

I had gramma errors few posts back...

I do not blame the illness completely. I could have done better, I know it. And I'm not accusing BPD people for all the break ups entirely, mine included.

But I just could not comphrehend why some one would hurt me while she says that I'm the most perfect guy there is... .I didn't know what causes it and I thought she is a crazy person... .That is where all went bad. With knowledge I had, I stood no chance. I'm just sad that someone else handles these mood swings better (with the persons who I loved)... .
 And I have to figure out also that was it really love (in the late period) or was it some kind of traumatization thing that I was sucked into... I have to learn more and investigate (via this Forum)  

there are worse things, for sure.


what sort of mental locks/walls?

I can't let anyone close mentally. My overall feeling is quite sad and everyone around me senses it. I just say to them that I'm tired or something.

This girl that I have seen few times, there is nothing wrong with her... .Quite the opposite but I can't get relaxed near her, or anyone. I try to do things that you should do in order to move one but it does not feel right. It almost feels like I'm cheating... .Meanwhile my ex lives with another dude. I know, different thing and everyone needs their own time to get over it... .But it is now 1 year + 3 months. I can't just let my life slip away while I'm in this condition. Luckily I have therapy time next week and this girl leaves on a vacation next week so I get time to process things

Of course I have to be honest with her if my feeling does not go away soon. I do not want mess anyone up... And ofc I dont promise anything.

I was really surprised when I confided in a new friend that id been in a BPD relationship and how much it had effected me. Turns out he wasnt surprised at all - he knew someone who has it. Same goes for a girl I dated, she had shared an apartment with a girl who had BPD.

Suddenly I started to find a sense of, this wasnt like I had been been the most unluckiest guy who happened to be hit by an asteroid and that it was normal to feel the way I was. But whilst it may or may not be 'normal' to feel depressed, anxious after a relationship like this, one thing is - its not healthy - but if I wouldnt have declared why, how else would anyone be able to begin to understand stuff like.

"Cromwell, whats wrong, have I done something - you usually talk a lot but your not anymore"

If I was to say, "nothing, im just tired", but in reality, my mind is ruminating over the historic landscape of a now 1 year 2 months old battleground - its merging that past into the present, but no-one else can see it. This isnt helpful if the goal is to become emotionally intimate with another. The girl Ive started dating - she is an actress. We havent ever talked about my ex, ive not felt any need to, she will know because we met via hooked up by a new friend, and ive never felt the need to - yet, even if it would happen. I dont feel depressed with her, i dont think of my ex with her, thats not to say that when im apart that those last ruminations have evaporated - but im working on that.

I guess your post has helped me realise something about myself. Maybe there will come a point where i might feel depressed, and its because I am thinking of something to do with my ex. I guess its a choice - to talk openly and honestly about whats on my mind, so that she doesnt have to reach her own conclusions that maybe its something to do with her.

Well, she already knows about BPD, it is unlikely in my mind my friend will not have mentioned it to her. but it hasnt so far needed to be talked about. I guess it boils down to what I want - if it comes to the point of saying "im really happy with you but from time to time, i get a memory over my ex, she had BPD and it was difficult,  but it passes - dont worry about it, im fine"

If a girl would have any huge issue in that, then thats fine and her choice, but id rather go that option than to live the way I have been doing. afraid to express how i feel or feeling this false sense of shame that id apparently been "beat down" by an ex. Ive shared with this board, so I can share when it is even more important to - a relationship im emotionally interested in taking further. The alternative is to carry this burden secretly, and at the same time, keep what I call a "pseudo relationship" at a psychic level. Another week, month, who knows another year of not being together in person, but at the same time, not "detached" as oppossed to still "detaching".

This girl that I have seen few times, there is nothing wrong with her.

Toughluck, its early days, and during the first 3 months with my ex, I felt the same, until I found out otherwise. Actually, ive learned a lot more about what was "wrong" post-relationship.

right and wrong are subjective terms. The new girl im seeing, she "hates" the colour Green. It happens to be one of my favourite colours and at the moment, i cant make any sense of it. I thought to myself, I wonder whats going to happen when I wear this green t shirt to see her next time, ive also tried in vain to find something green in her apartment. Either this is going to stick in my mind as something wrong, or I could just enjoy it for what I suspect it is - she is an actress, drama is her forte - ive learned that if I hadnt have went through so much with my BPDx, I probably wouldnt have learned to appreciate it for myself. Just that, I learn that I can have it without it being emotionally wounding, I can enjoy it. I have no crystal ball to predict what might happen if I choose to wear one of my favourite green t-shirts, just the thought of it - is this walking on eggshells or is it exciting for me. My thoughts are, she said it as an off-hand comment, maybe just to keep rapport going. You know, what could be wrong with it to "hate" it. My ex talked like that, "loved me" "hated me"

What I didnt do - is simply ask her.

failing to open up is failing to become emotionally connected.  

in the meantime, at least ive learned that my BPDx didnt hold a monopoly over my ruminations like it felt she did. Granted, not every girl can make me feel that way and she did - until it shifted from the joy of wanting to know about a partners choice in the psychology of colours, towards learning that there was far more to discover beyond the trimmings and red herrings. Or is it green herrings, that distract from what mattered most to me. That i wouldnt be disrespected, cheated on, put down, stalked and controlled and have it toxicly packaged up as an emulation of what "love" should be. Toughluck, I had enough of the mind games, if thinking of this new girl instead of my ex constitutes 'cheating' than so be it - I enjoy it, it makes me happy. I have to forgive myself at some point for daring to be this utterly selfish. I should really be sitting and waiting for "the one", solemn and serious and faithful, like waiting for god to show up.

Toughluck cmon, can you help validate me here, life is too F short for all this... .allowing onself to be upset and hurt... .and it originated so long ago now - it must be time to draw the line... .

 right?

i dont know about you toughluck, but this for me is a big issue with wanting to re-connect with my ex.  this has essentially been one of the worst thoughts circling in my head for the last few days; at what point was there someone else, at what point was i already in a triangle, what happened in the periods of time i didnt see much of her and what happened that lead to the periods of time i did see a lot of her.  that stuff completely F's with my head, and it is definitely something we need to consider or use as caution if they come back. 

Toughluck,
Thinking about what I did wrong was part of my process.
I know I made mistakes.

However I am very convinced that my r/s was nothing that could have lasted. My friend is very ill with BPD and Cluster B.

Thank you for opening your situation ...

Yes well, I told to the girl I'm seeing my short story. Concerning my latest BPD relationship, I opened it all. I just don't want to constantly talk about it, you know ... I have seen the girl 3 times now and we have had some great moments already. Ofc I don't really know how she's like before few months or years... .But I'm pretty sure that she is not BPD :D no love bombing which now feels like kinda mild. This is what is supposed to be, normal dating I mean. She has said that she is very interested to get to know me but nothing else. I have to see what happens ... .And I don't want to bring out my current BPD issues until she asks. Obviously I know that if I'm not feeling close to 100% comfortable pretty soon, then I have to break down this more or be alone a bit more time.

I agree that you should only think of yourself and your happiness only to a point where you decide to be a pair. If it gets serious and you let it, then everything must be thought through companion also... .but before that, it is just to get knowing each other and having fun meantime. If it gets weird before you have this serious talk, I would not waste my or other persons time... .

You are right! I should start to not a give *amn about my BPD ex. My friends are also tired of my stories about her :p... .Only a therapist listenes to me, and that is reasonable because I pay 70€/h :D... .This is part of my process. I already feel way better than few weeks ago when I've heard that they are moved together. And after I've finally accepted it... I think nothing can harm me anymore. These may be the Last hurdles that I come across with

I think honesty is the key. I just plan to talk about in smaller doses or in a situation where she doesn't feel that I'm not over her in anyway... .I carry this load for sometime but it is not far away that I don't anymore about my Last relationship

I know, I was/am there also. It really f's you up...
Although, I have never wanted to contact my BPD because what she did to me... .Was the worst thing you can possibly do. I would make myself a fool, if I'd do that...

But I have wanted her to contact me. It would feel good. I know it would, but would it make change my hurted feelings towards her, I do not think so.

To be realistic, I know that she does not love the new guy... .But the new guy is safe choice for her and maybe does not confront her like I did.

But do BPD's contact their ex's ever if they are in a relationship? In this case they so much common friends which strengthenes their r/s. Although, the network of friends does not help when the devaluation phase begings or now when their "leisure" life has begun together... .its not exciting anymore for them.

I think that something has to go wrong for them... .Before she will contact. And that is a big "if"... .

And do BPD's mostly go further away if their previous partner starts to date or do they try to contact so that they won't loose their other options?

My ex is wise and she can think these so that BPD symptoms won't be affective. When she is stressed she acts like a crazy and makes irrational and bizzare choices... .it all comes down to her psyche I guess

Mine too... .And I think it is healthy. In my circumstances, I had no other outcome... .I believe so too.

two things might be going on.

the first is that you may be experiencing depression. over 70% of members here are. it can be hard, but its also good to lean on friends and family for support when/where/as youre able.

the second is that grieving is sort of synonymous with emotional unavailability, and in the context of grief, that is normal. when we are healing a broken heart, we guard it closely, and we are wounded easily.

lastly, as you do date, id encourage you to post about it on the Learning board (it is also a Dating board), where we learn and apply the lessons we want to take into new relationships.

Sounds legit!

I will post there after I've read (and learned) some posts from there . Thank you!

I know that these are not the things that I should concentrate on but... .Do you have experiences or opinions on those matters
? Anyone?...

theyre generalizations, Toughluck. BPD is a personality style with hundreds of combinations, ranging from mild to severe. its like asking the same questions about introverts or extroverts, or red heads.

i wouldnt say you shouldnt concentrate on them. id just encourage you to look deeper. you want some sign from her that you were important/significant and matter, right? and youd like to know she has some regrets?

She has a severe BPD. She changes her friends every 3 years because she chooses to abandon them (if they are not useful for her) or she gets abandoned. If I got a Phone call from a male friend she got jealous, and we had to start a fight. I have 1000 of those stories... her relationship have ended the same way than I had to face or she was abandoned because her partners could not take it anymore. This r/s different than others, the guy Does not have social network so she may not be jealous of anything towards her guy.

But! These mental explosion things happens when she is under stress. When she is uplifted, she think she can fly... .

Well anykind of reach from her part, would be nice. I know that she Does not apologize, never did. But I know that if she emails or sends a message, that can I return her fork that she left 2 years ago to my apartment... .I know that she wants something from me and wants to be in contact.

I mean... .Any contact would be nice, for my recovery. It would make me feel stronger I think. But, would it change anything, no it would not... Apart me being happier.

Thats excellent, I noticed since you have been here a huge amount of positive words, it helps to have optimism and have the self belief, this was a very challenging and confusing time you have gone through. I also feel a lot better sharing what ive been through and learning from others the tips and tricks of how they manage, so thanks and keep going.

I think nothing can harm me anymore.

I found a lot of new confidence for future relationships, I notice it and others do as well. I could never have said this a year ago, I felt emotionally at the worst state ive ever been, but to anyone reading this, recognise it is temporary however hard that might be to imagine at the time. Life can knock us around, but life is also not one day.

Ive been single for a year, the longest, it taught me one important life lesson that I didnt need to find happiness by searching for it in others like I used to. Just this single thing has been the gift from the experience I value the most. Its why I also feel the same, that after overcoming the hurt of that level, it feels near impossible to be hurt again. At the same time im open to new love.

Can I ask TL, Do you feel in some way you have changed? I ask because I know I have, but part of it scared me. I thought the change would lead to losing the person I felt had a good heart and would be instead, locked down and guarded, but it hasnt happened that way. im really happy for you for how far you have come. 

I am better than few weeks ago but I'm not there yet ... .I just try to be positive and meanwhile process things.

I agree with you. I think that when you are happy with yourself, you can have more likely a good relationship. First you have to be alone happy to be happy with someone else... .
I think I would not like to date anyone at this current moment else but I'm a bit worried of my age because I want a family. I am not stupid, if it does not feel right... .I do not want to force it. I date now but maybe in a month I won't... .Or I build a serious relationship... .Who knows. It is all up to my feelings how they now build up. Let's see how it goes!

I think this is the main problem why BPD relationship fail. The persons with BPD can't be alone and they are after constant validation and caretaking to get their "glass" full. They are not happy with theirselfs so others has to make them happy. This is where I failed... .I was sincerery in love but my ex was Only after my secureness, which I could not give it to her... .Because my perception of what love means, battled with her actions.

I think that I'm more cautious and more aware what is happening in relationships. I have a small shield... .And I wait someone to break it :D. I think when the right person comes, it will happen. I'm not there yet. But ofc I'm 1000 times better condition than one year ago.

As I said in earlier post that this may be last hurdles that I have to across. It is a big hurdle to accept that they (my ex and the guy) are planning their rest of their lives together. When I truly accept it in my heart... .I'm fully healed and I can move on. But most of all, I'm many times wiser what comes down to relationships and what kind of person I should be in bad situations. And I'm also wiser now to avoid BPD (or abusive) r/s... .I do not want to let the r/s go too far if I notice that everything is not right... .

And I truly hope that somehow, someday my ex relationship would get a prober closure... .Meaning, she would say or reach out to me... That would close the book. It may not happen but that is my wish

I think the other hurdle was about feeling like you would be cheating on her if you did the same?

What helped was that I didnt have her in my life at all when I went NC. I didnt know if she was in a r/s, so therefore, would never get updates if it would succeed or fail. I wasnt interested in this personally, but if I was, I wouldnt have known either way, didnt check her FB - out of sight out of mind in terms of new information. I recommend this rather than any latent wish that if you stay single and available waiting in the hope she returns. I say this from my own experience, I split up and went with other girls - at a concious level I wanted to detach, but at a subconcious level I was doing it for other reasons - i wanted to be with her - at the same time I wanted to show that just as she went elsewhere, I had the option to do the same. It worked, except, its almost as if I had her - but I didnt have what i wanted. I wanted a r/s where I didnt have to resort to this level of thinking and behaviour. It had cheapened its value to me.

So consider, in your situation - she would break up with him and you are available and get a phone call. Have you 'really' got what you wanted? It might seem like it on the surface, but... .?

Proper closure is still possible regardless, there might be other ways to find solace. I didnt find proper emotional closure by ghosting her, but it had its advantages and I had moved from caring primarily about my own health that had suffered - before anything else. Closure took time so soul search that whatever has happened, has happened, nothing can change history, a form of radical acceptance. But acceptance too, that regardless of it all, there is a future ahead to consider - pining over what went well and what didnt was ok for a short while it was helpful to have space to get a more balanced, less emotional view. Let the usual predicable emotions like bitterness, anger, play out their expected roles in the post relationship grieving process.

Unlike my ex, I cant just go and cheat, or leave another and act like I didnt care a thing about the ex partner, or simply paint them black. I dont have those abilities or coping mechanisms. But when the dust has been swept up through time and hard work, there comes a point to leave it behind. Hoping it would just happen is just exactly that "hoping" as much as hoping for anything else in life. I guess one gift of being through all of this is becoming a bit more pro-active in feeling the need to actually go for the things I want and make them happen. Closure is part of it, a new relationship is important enough not to just leave to chance and the last thing I want is to be dating and still thinking about my ex because there is a latent hope that maybe the possibility id go back to her. Once that got properly sealed off it became far easier. Im indifferent today wether or not id hear from her again, get a "chance" to do another round or to know whether she finds success or failure in her new ventures. I guess I see it as none of my business, which in reality, it isnt.

If we gategorize it to one specific hurdle ... .I think it is the same. Meaning, I still at some level hope to believe her loving words and the atmosphere so that I think they are not really mentally together. So I should not either be with a anyone :D... .

I know, its a load bs . After I studied this BPD, I know that the same thing is happening now. And it was just a game. But I'm quite close to close the book, for real. Every passing day, even more. Some bad days will come, but the target is close.

I just remember the Last time we met (at a bar). Her emotions looked like inhuman, after what she put me through... .Like she did not understand what was happened. Same moment, I asked "is xxxxx (her new guy) over there sitting?" she answered, "I do not care"... I know now, that is Only mind games. She wanted keep all Doors open. And she didn't mention to the new guy that she had a relationship with me... She got upset because I informed the guy. She is not a reliable normal person, and the new guy will see it, if havent already.

I should have also go NC... .I Only did it half way... I stalked her through her fb. And she has not posted anything about the new guy there, my friends have told me. I used other ways to find out if they live together... .Nobody should not know that they are loving together, I only know. After I found out, I went fully NC... .After 1year :p... .Sad isnt it?

I'm with you also with the hoping thing. I'm also a DO'er. I do not only hope ever, I have plan and try to excecute it. But in this case, I will never contact her. Because I know, deep in my heart... She is not good for me. Besides, after what she did... It is not my business to contact or say I'm sorry. Actually when I heard it for the first time(that they had sex)... .After 4h I apogolized her and tried to win her back. What a pussy I was :D... .Never again. I have grown quite much.

And I think you are right about, do I really want the Phone call... .It Does not change anything and I cant forgive her. So what would be the point? ... .

But she won't contact me, unless the guy looses it and she is really irrational in that situation. And that is not the moment when I want to hear from her.

Ps. My face goes to her fb feed every day neverthless :D... .I play guitar and I do gigs so she sees that my friends are participating those events (most of my own friends are still her friends in fb, but not the other way around... I don't have any of her friends anymore). I didnt do gigs while I was with her (Last gig I did was 2007). She didnt want me to perform because she was jealous... She thought that I would have a agenda to *uck after gig is over . That is a one big Red flag there also

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