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Question:  W likes to use the term "primary caregiver" often.  Is there a legal basis for this term when it comes to parenting?

Example - my sister just went though a divorce with a NPD/BPD man.  I don't know the terms of their divorce, but they have one minor child age 11.  My sister wants to move out of the state they live in, but worries that ex will try all kinds of tricks to keep my sister from taking the kid.  W talks about this situation and says my sister is "primary caregiver" and should be able to do whatever she wants.  I correct her, saying that it depends upon the terms of their divorce, and likely my sister would have to petition to move out of state, and the court would have to approve.  That is what the L told me of how it works where I live - that my state no longer uses the term "custody", and if one parent wishes to move out of state with the child, they would have to have a reason to do so (a job, health reasons, etc) and would have to petition the court.  I am assuming that my sister would have to demonstrate that she isn't just wanting to move, that she *needs* to move, and the court would rule in the best interest of the child.  "Primary caregiver" seems to imply that a child needs one parent more than the other.

Hey maxsterling;

Any reason why you couldn't take the kids with you? As you do your advance planning (which, good job, BTW), I encourage you to consider making that happen. My DH has recently mentioned that every day he regrets "gifting" sole custody to his kids' mom. It's been 8 years since the divorce.

I don't want to freak you out. I want to strongly support you in looking at your situation from different angles before making a move that could have some big ramifications for your kids down the road.

As LnL mentioned


I wonder if you think you would feel guilty for "taking the kids away" from your W. Maybe now is a good time to really brush away whatever FOG is there and think about if there are distortions impacting your planning.

Big question: would moving the kids out with you REALLY equate to "taking them away from her"? Really?

Hang in there;

kells76

I think you should bring the children with you, full stop.  If you move out of the home without them, then you have given her an edge in your custody proceedings, because she will be showing that she is the one primarily taking care of them, and that you trusted her enough to leave them there with her.

I would definitely make sure she does not have the children when she is served.

Have you thought about what you will ask for in terms of custody?

I'd venture to say that he'll first say 50-50 because he doesn't want to take the kids away from their mom since she needs them and the kids need a mom.  He'll want to be nice.  $!@ will hit the fan in a few weeks once she truly realizes that he wants out (at first she'll promise the moon and he'll feel guilty so will have doubts) that's when the storm will unleash.  Fog will clear and he'll realize that he needs to put the kids first and 50-50 isn't the way to do it.

Yes, the story above is what I went through.

Max: don't be like me.  Think long and hard about what is best for the kids. Remember that you're still in the fog.  If 50-50 is best, so be it. But make sure you think about it carefully. 

Yes, that's well put.  Yet our BPD partner never truly realized it, they kept saying that we weren't trying hard enough, did not understand them, .. 

My state no longer uses the term "custody".  Instead they decide on "parenting time".  Unless there are other circumstances (namely abuse accoprding to L), paretning time would be slpit 50/50.  Seperate from that, they also define a term for who makes decisions for the kids regarding important things like schools and doctors.  Again, they assume the parents work out agreements.  If parents don't work out agreements, then the court decides.  No parent is awarded a "custody" that allowes them to make all decisions regarding the child, unless in certain circumstances where one parent is considered unfit.  

So in my case, it would be 50/50 parenting time unless either she or I tried to petition the court that the other was in some way unfit.  I would not be prepared to do that from day 1, because my feeling is that W is capapble of fulfilling motherly duties, and will probably be ok after the dust settles and she no longer has me as a scapegoat.  Her abuse is mostly directed at me, not the kids.  Should she not fulfill her obligations to the children or break agreements, then I would petition the court.  Some of this may be coming from FOG, but part of it comes from the legal situation in that I would need to prove a reason for W to not have 50% parenting time.  According to the L I spoke with, unless it is serious asking for more parenting time is probably not a good thing to focus on right away.

In addition to being served, I would also have the court draw up temporary orders that would go in place on the same day.  I would not have her served without those orders.  So if the orders say she has the kids Tuesday-Friday afternoon, and she gets served Tuesday, she has the kids until Friday.  Should she disobey orders, I call police.  I would probably want her to have the kids on the day she is served, that way it gives me a day or two to settle into a new place.  

The logistics of this are like Mount Everest.  So many things that I need to get squared away first.  Another issue is vehicle - the car I drive is not suitable for two car seats.  I would need to get another vehicle.  That means I either do that beforehand, telling W I need it anyway, or I have that all set to go without her knowledge (such as borrowing a car from a family member for a few weeks).  I would have to have an apartment rented, and some furniture moved in already because there is no way I will stay at home after she is served.    

This is a legal issue.  I can argue that having more parenting time is best for the kids, but W will likely argue the same thing.  It is up to the court to decide, and according to the L I met with, the state I live in awards equal parenting time unless they have a strong reason not to.  L suggested to not pursue that route now unless I have a strong reason (such as physical or sexual abuse of the children).  L also suggested based upon her experience, W is likely to push the court orders and screw up, and that would be the time to pursue greater parenting time.

Keep in mind that she'll need a new caretaker. It will likely have to be one of your kids.   Something you may want to read:
https://www.amazon.ca/Understanding-Borderline-Mother-Unpredictable-Relationship-ebook/product-reviews/B00BGMZ9CA/ref=dpx_acr_txt?showViewpoints=1

She never split on the kids? Suicide threats in front of them? Told them she would abandon them?  Told them <x> about you and that's why the kids are better off with her and not their dad?  Make the kids feel like they are walking on eggshell at all times and have anxiety?  

You are NOT the cause of all of this.  How will she react when something upsets her in her life and she cannot use you as scapegoat?  

I truly realized the impact she had on the kids once she was out of the house for a few weeks and we could breathe.  My oldest one doesn't have difficulty sleeping anymore.  My youngest one doesn't have general body pain anymore.  They have regular bowel movements.  Is there a visit with mom later that day?  The pain comes back and they get cranky.  It lasts until a few hours after the visit.  

Follow your kids closely. Make sure they understand that what they feel is normal. Have them see a therapist.  Make sure the kids think about themselves.  Things will likely turn explosive. 

Then again, if your lawyer is good you have to follow his advice.    You'll likely get all the material you need in the next few months once she disregulates.    And maybe in my case I had it "easy" for that part because she told me (and wrote) that she couldn't control herself and it was better that she did not set foot in the house ever again.   

I filed for sole custody / primary parent and this week she did the same.  I'm far from out of the woods.

I have no doubt that her behavior in front of the kids has impacted their behavior and health.  But that is hard to prove.  I have recordings of her yelling and cursing and abusing *me*, but how much of that would a judge take into consideration?  W could claim that when I am not there she is not angry and violent, and that if we are separated that won't happen.  As L told me, she is likely to defy court orders or take other actions in the subsequent few months that a judge can take action on.

Regarding the kids moods/behaviors/health, I suspect my kids would be the same way.  I'd stake money on that after a few days with me, the temper tantrums, constipation, and sleep issues would mostly go away, only to return the first night after picking them up from W.

In my state, what you describe of her actions towards you can be considered a form of domestic violence, and it can be considered child abuse to have children witness that.

I'm very curious to hear the opinions of the other lawyers you plan to consult.

I was surprised that the L did not mention that, because I *think* that is the case where I live, too.  I have heard (not from this L, but from other information I obtained years ago) that the issue is that verbal abuse alone is difficult for the court to act on.  I'd be curious to hear others' take on this.

I've heard of telling the partner at a therapy appointment or with relatives that support them present.

In my case, he decided. I had trouble sleeping at first, but it was anti-climatic after over a decade of talking about divorce. I was numb but never cried. At various points prior to this I had done some research and had actually talked to a lawyer three different times to educate myself on details I had questions about. Our mutual therapist had been telling me for years prior to him leaving that we were headed for divorce. The counsellor I saw after he left said that by all signs, he was never coming back and to prepare for divorce. So I've grieved a lot already.

I don't know how he is doing. My guess is that it is hitting him very hard.

When pondering how to pay for the legal costs - court costs are usually minimal - usually the biggest asset at risk is the house.

Before fretting too much, ponder hard on this question... Can either of you maintain the house without the other's income added in?  If not, then accept that the house will have to be sold at some point and then you two would split the marital equity somehow, probably using some of it to first pay the lawyers.

If it needs to be sold, then don't worry on how to get her to comply.  The lawyers will want their money, they'll make sure it gets sold so they can get paid.

Unless she has solid income and the house is already mostly paid off, then it's best she not keep the house.  Otherwise she'll be expecting you to pay a ridiculous child support and spousal support.  She might get it during the divorce (and incentivize her to create endless delays to avoid the final decree) but usually post-decree the alimony is of limited amount and length.  Generally the alimony is for no more than half the length of the marriage and often much less.  These days alimony is mostly to enable the disadvantaged parent to have a bridge from married life to single life, to get a job or perhaps some college courses for a career.  Me?  I was married 18 years plus two days at my final decree and my alimony to pay was for 3 years.

You will need real teeth in any order regarding selling the house or registering it with one parent or the other.  Why?  Courts are often reluctant to enforce their own orders.  So if she's to refinance on her own merits, what teeth are there in the final order to ensure she complies?  If she's to sign a quit claim deed, what teeth are there in the final order to ensure she complies?  You don't want to go back to court for a few more times just to force her to comply with what she had previously agreed to do.  Hint, often holding a large chunk of $$$ back in safekeeping will generally ensure the terms are met faster.

Some developments here:

I've been sleeping in the kids playroom for most of the past two months.  It was Ws request, but I don't mind - it gives me space and eliminates those 11pm arguments when I am trying to sleep. 

I am getting more and more comfortable with the idea of divorce and having my own place again.  If I had the magic wand, that would happen today.  I'm considering looking at a few apartments, during lunch breaks from work just to have the information ready. 

W is still verbally abusive and violent every day.  There hasn't been a day in the past few weeks that she hasn't called me names, cursed at me, or slammed doors.  There is a crack developing by the back door as a result of it being slammed.  I have already repaired the door handle to the back door once.  Last night after she slammed the door while leaving, I went outside and told her to quit slamming the door because it is cracking the wall.  She came in, demanded to see the crack, asked why I did not make her aware of this sooner, then left and slammed the door again.  This morning she is mad at me because the city has been replacing the fire hydrant in front of our house all morning, and that I didn't tell her it was happening.  This disorder makes no sense at all.

I still havent met with a second L, but I think I need to soon.  It will have to be a free consult this time as money is tight.

And regarding money - this is a big issue right now.  I am aware that I will have to pay some suppot to W upon separation.  The L I met with helped me know about how much I can expect.  It's a manageable amount, BUT - W's only income right now is disability.  And this month they started cutting off her money to pay back money she owes.  She was supposed to call and get it straightened out, but as of now it is not.  So, she has less than half the income from that as she did a few months ago.  She was going to start an online tutoring job, we got the computer and everything mostly set up, and then they decided to pay her less than she expected, so she declined.  If we separated she would be forced to do something, but I was hoping for her to get something established before we separated so that I am not providing 100% support to her at first. 

As for my personal finances upon separation - if W could get the disability straightened out, and find some online or part time work totalling around $1000 per month, she would have enough to live on her own.  I'd still probably be required to pay her some for a year or so until she could go back to work full time.  Assuming I have the kids 1/2 the time, I would probably adopt a 4/10 schedule and find day care or a sitter for the other day.    The days that I don't have the kids I would probably start delivering food or take a part time job for some extra cash for the short term.  I think I could make it work.  I actually think having W out of the picture I could be quite productive.  Taking care of the kids is a lot of work, but I am realizing that taking care of Ws needs is more work than the twins. 

I should also mention that W suggested MC again, or some kind of "family therapy".  I honestly think she wants to go in there and complain about my parenting style and find someone to validate her.  I think she also wants someone to validate that S2 has some kind of developmental issue that makes him prone to tantrums and makes him a difficult toddler.  In other words, she wants someone to tell her that "it isn't her". 

I'm don't object to MC, but I don't think it will solve these issues - I clearly see now that unless W gets help for herself regarding anger and violence control, nothing will change.  Should we go through with MC again, I will lay that out in the first session - that nothing will go anyplace if there is not a significant reduction in the name calling and violence from her end.  I'm sure that won't go over well and will probably set her off, but there really is no point in MC unless that issue is addressed. 

I do hope that MC will be a forum  to actually discuss separation issues in front of someone and thus actually be constructive about it.  As mentioned in a reply - perhaps this would be a place to bring up that one of us needs to move out and how.

If we separated she would be forced to do something, but I was hoping for her to get something established before we separated so that I am not providing 100% support to her at first. 

Sometimes people don't do something until they have to. She may not have the incentive to do this until it doesn't become optional. As it is now, it isn't crucial for her.


Taking care of the kids is a lot of work, but I am realizing that taking care of Ws needs is more work than the twins. 

Taking care of infants and toddlers is time consuming,  but kids grow up. Eventually they will be in school, and over time, more self sufficient. Parenting is always time consuming and sometimes challenging, but they don't stay little and dependent forever.

A couple of developments -

W is still being very abusive, and I am still making recordings/documentations of her abuse when I can.  That is helping make my direction clearer.  It is affecting me health wise so much (and I am sure our kids, too) that I recognize the only way out is apart.  The issue now is still just the logistics of doing so.  It feels to the point that so much damage has been done that even if things change from her end, I won't trust it, and things will never be "repaired".  At least I won't assume as such.

W did find a MC - have an appt in about 2 weeks.  While I don't see this as likely to fix anything, I do see it as an opportunity to discuss things in a more controlled environment. Right now I don't even bring up anything with W, even about what to eat for dinner, because it is always met with a negative response, if not name calling and curse words. 

I am getting better with boundaries, and simply choosing to not be present for her rages, and not feeling guilty about that.  She will complain later but those complaints are starting to just wash over be because I know there was no way I could be expected to stay in such a hostile environment. 

On a somewhat positive note - W did float the possibility of her going back to AA meetings.  She was going to go last night until she decided I was incapable of putting the kids to bed (likely an excuse she made to avoid going to the AA meeting).  When she attended AA, she at least worked through problems and didn't dwell on them for months or years.  Right now she will randomly break into full unprovoked conversations about resentments towards my family members over events that happened years ago.  Not that I think AA will solve problems, but at least it would be another resource for her.

Not that I think AA will solve problems, but at least it would be another resource for her.

I would keep this focus- it would be a resource for her- and a support when/if you choose to leave.

You are changing- starting to have boundaries to take care of yourself, and this is good- for you, for your kids. However, I think the other person can sense this- this changes the dynamics between you. Don't forget the "push pull". She can decide to "be good"- do the things that bring you back into the marriage.

The difference is the motivation. Someone attending AA because they want to be better- doing it for them- is likely to continue with it. Someone attending AA to bring the person closer in isn't intrinsically motivated. As soon as you are back in the fold, the motivation is gone and so is the need to attend AA.

Looking at AA as a support system for her, not as a marriage fixer, is a good way to look at it. If it were to be for a marriage fixer- that would require being there for a long time- many years. Recovery is an ongoing process, not an immediate turn around to suddenly good.

Yes, prepare for another wave of "guilt" because she will play her cards differently.  Don't give up, keep pushing through it.