Part 3: Preparing for the inevitable

[maxsterling]

I mage an appointment to meet with a lawyer on Friday.  The meeting is Friday morning - I will come into work late.  To W - it will be just like I am going to work. 

Life with W has been more bearable the past two days, but not completely without conflict and verbal abuse from her end.  She has T tonight, and has been going to the gym every morning before I go to work.  That leaves me with plenty of time alone with the kids.  That helps me calm down.  I still look forward to my "me" time at work or after W falls asleep for the night. 

[ForeverDad]

Bring your list of questions so you don't forget to ask.  Very important, you have a right to confidentiality and privacy.  That means you don't share info about this consultation, not even in typical late night interrogations.

[kells76]

I made an appointment to meet with a lawyer on Friday.  The meeting is Friday morning - I will come into work late.

   Great job maxsterling! You keep taking one step at a time. Kudos to you!

Bring your list of questions so you don't forget to ask.

Important reminder from FD. Let us know if you want to post your questions here ahead of time. We'd be happy to help you dial stuff in if you want.

[mart555]

Life with W has been more bearable the past two days,

Once she knows you want out she may even play nice for a few weeks to try and win you back..  don't fall for that trap!

[maxsterling]

Once she knows you want out she may even play nice for a few weeks to try and win you back..  don't fall for that trap!

That would make things difficult.  Right now I don't think she knows I want out.  I suppose deep down she may fear that, but if the thought I wanted out I don't think she would be acting the way she is.  I may be foolish here, but I wound not be entirely against staying together should she actually take steps to get treatment and make some kind of admission that she has work to do on herself.  Weekly visits to T aren't cutting it.  Before when she would dysregulate, she at least had a network of other friends and programs that she fell back upon.  Now it is absolutely nothing. 

[Notwendy]

That would make things difficult.    I may be foolish here, but I wound not be entirely against staying together should she actually take steps to get treatment and make some kind of admission that she has work to do on herself.  

Max, I think it would help to take a long range view. The push pull is part of the dynamics between the two of you. To truly change, a person needs to be very motivated to do the work- for themselves as well as the relationship. If your W were to find out you were considering leaving- would the motivation be intrinsic- for the long run, or out of fear/wanting things to be the way they were. If it is the latter, then once things are back to the way things are, the motivation to bring you back would be gone.

Change also would take a change in your part of the pattern- you not participating in this push pull. If you want long term change- you don't return to the same pattern yourself. This isn't about leaving but changing your responses to her behavior.

For probably every relationship there are some good times.  The decision is about you- not contingent on whether the person is being good that day or not. Taking a long term perspective- you have seen this push pull cycle for several years. You know how it goes. Deciding to move on from this is about your own decision to move on.

Making the decision to stay or leave involves deciding what is the best decision for you. Domestic violence, drug addictions- to change these patterns requires serious personal work- over the long run. A short term "I'm good now" is not evidence of this. Seeing genuine work and change over the long run can be. Do you see any of this in your relationship and do you think it is possible?

I think it is a good step to see the lawyer and get informed about the path to divorce and the laws involved. It's helpful to be able to make informed choices.

[formflier]

What is she going to T for?

Are you at all involved in her therapy?

I'm curious about how you reconcile her not seeing she has work to do (needing to admit that) and her attendance at T?

How long has she been with this T?

My understanding is that she has been treating MH issues for a large part of her life.  Am I correct on this? 

Just trying to get the "inventory" right before making comments.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

FF - one answer to this is that, I think one can see a T and still not see their issues fully.

My BPD mother has been in T off and on throughout the time I have known her. She has serious issues. I have not seen that T has been that much helpful. As a teen I once asked my father why mother didn't see a psychiatrist more. His reply: she lies to the T. The last time she went was when my father was ill and what I know about it- it was to discuss his "depression" ( he was depressed- understandable for the situation) and how it affected her.

This does not mean T doesn't work. There are cases of people who have recovered from addictions, as well as BPD. These people are motivated to do the work.

The only way I can tell if it is working is over time. I can be pretty certain that if my BPD mother has been going to T for decades and still doesn't see where she needs to work on, it isn't working. I have also been in 12 step recovery groups where I have met people who have overcome serious addictions and dysfunction. I have a lot of respect for them and the work they have done.

I believe that someone can see a T and not be aware of their own issues, and also that people can make significant progress with a T, but I can't know who is and who isn't as we mostly are not privy to other people's T sessions.

Max has known his wife for many years and can assess whether it is helping or not so far.

[maxsterling]

What is she going to T for?

Are you at all involved in her therapy?

I'm curious about how you reconcile her not seeing she has work to do (needing to admit that) and her attendance at T?

How long has she been with this T?

My understanding is that she has been treating MH issues for a large part of her life.  Am I correct on this? 

Just trying to get the "inventory" right before making comments.

Best,

FF

Yes.  She has been seeing Ts most of her life, since she was a pre-teen.  Most of the time she and I have been together, she has been seeing a T of some sort.  She has been seeing the current one for about 3 years, maybe a bit longer.

I know she knows her own issues.  She admits that (when she isn't raging).  I say the current T isn't enough because 1) I have seen no positive change in behavior since going to this T.  2) T will suggest this or that that W could do to help herself, W never follows through.  3)  She used to do 12-step programs, and I did see positive benefits from those.  She has also from time to time gone to DBT or group therapy, and again I saw benefits from those.  She reems to refuse to do anything more than once a week with her current T.  I suspect T has become a "friend" to which W can ask parenting advice from, and during session likely never gets down to her own issues or how she is feeling.  How do I know?  Every time W comes back from T, she has a list of preschools, programs, or activities that her T recommended that we get the kids involved in. 

[livednlearned]

I suspect T has become a "friend" to which W can ask parenting advice from, and during session likely never gets down to her own issues or how she is feeling.

That's true with my uBPD step daughter.

She works on anxiety.

There is not much in the way of processing trauma, or of reality testing and perspective taking.

So there is no accountability for creating the problems of SD22's own making, other than some very light DBT and CBT skills to manage chronic anxiety (like using squishy balls when she is in distress   )

[maxsterling]

That's true with my uBPD step daughter.

She works on anxiety.

There is not much in the way of processing trauma, or of reality testing and perspective taking.

So there is no accountability for creating the problems of SD22's own making, other than some very light DBT and CBT skills to manage chronic anxiety (like using squishy balls when she is in distress   )

The same can be said about our relationship in general.  W's chronic "anxiety" (in quotes because i think the "anxiety" pwBPD experience is markedly different than the anxiety the rest of us experience) makes it nearly impossible to have relationship discussions about anything else.  Same was true when we were in couples therapy - couldn't really discuss relationship issues because 90% of the time was devoted to managing W's anxiety and depression.  W is often on my case for not bringing this or that up, or not wanting to have discussions about this or that - but the reality is that she is not capable of a calm, rational conversation about certain topics - so why bring it up?

[Notwendy]

So Max, at this point, you have been able to observe the effects of T with your wife for several years. You have seen where it has possibly benefited her, and also how well ( or not well) it has helped her gain insight to her own issues.

If she were to decide to take steps to seriously work on herself-  How likely do you think this possibility is?

[maxsterling]

So Max, at this point, you have been able to observe the effects of T with your wife for several years. You have seen where it has possibly benefited her, and also how well ( or not well) it has helped her gain insight to her own issues.

If she were to decide to take steps to seriously work on herself-  How likely do you think this possibility is?

Are you asking how likely is it that she will take steps?  Or how likely is it that if she takes steps things will improve?

I think the only way she takes steps to help herself is if she hits some kind of rock bottom or if she is forced to.  If she is getting by being angry at the world, she will continue to do so and blame her problems on others or search out bandaid "fixes" (if I have more xyz I will feel better).

If she does take steps, I think there is a chance for significant improvement.  I say this because 15 yeas ago, things were worse for her and she was institutionalized, and then had intensiveoutpatient therapy for years.  During and immediately after that time she successfully completed graduate school, maintained friendships, ceased all drug and alcohol uses, and managed her own life.   Sure her life then was not without issues and I don't know if her anger issues were the same back then, but obviously something was working better for her.

I think her feeling now is that she already went through that intensive therapy and no longer needs it because she isn't doing the self harm behaviors that she once did.

[Notwendy]

She's not doing self harming, but she's harming you...

You seem to be on the fence about what to do and that's OK, but I think if someone decides to leave- it is because they decided they have had enough of the behavior as it is now- having made the conclusion that change isn't likely or the decision to not wait for it knowing it may take many years if it were to happen.

It's a decision based on what is the best thing for them to do, and also for the children. It's not dependent on whether or not the person does something to improve. That puts the decision in their hands. It's a decision one  takes responsibility for. It may be a risk. Maybe the person will do better, but maybe not. One predictor of future behavior is past behavior- what we have seen so far. One could also say the same for deciding to stay. There are ups and downs in these relationships. Some people think the ups are worth it, others don't. But the person with BPD will do what they do- we can't control them.

It's about you Max, what is best for you.

[ForeverDad]

She's been in therapy much of her life and she hasn't recovered.  A lot of that has been with you supporting her therapy.  Maybe it would be worse without a therapist but the point is that recovery, real recovery, probably will never happen, based on the past.

Often the behaviors flame out when a relationship end becomes the top issue.  Extinction Bursts to pressure you into returning to the past patterns where she has her comfort zone.  Due to the inconsistencies of her disorder, she can also morph into pull-you-back mode.  Distance can enable that, she may appear to be less disordered.  Doesn't mean she has truly changed for the better.

There is very high likelihood that her switching to Niceness and you staying with the relationship will just enable and reinforce her patterns.  "I can do just about whatever I want since I know that if he decides to leave then I can be nice for a while and he'll always return."

I wish it weren't so but that's the typical reality.  She would have to prove herself, better behaviors, better perceptions and better thinking, for years.  Actions over time - and not promises quickly made and broken - are the key.

[maxsterling]

I met with an attorney today.  A one hour consult for a small fee.  Even though money is tight ATM, I think it was worth it.

This attorney seemed knowledgeable in dealing with disordered individuals - especially husbands wanting to divorce a disordered wife.  I did get a lot of legal questions answered, regarding custody(I learned my state does not use that term anymore - they view it differently), money, etc.  She also had advice on how to deal with some of my fears - such as the timing of everything in relation to W's inevitable meltdown.  The L suggested getting my own place lined up secretly, then pull the trigger, say that I have found another place and am moving out, then have her served papers that day or the next day.  I expressed my concern that once W gets served, she is likely to become really unstable, and probably impossible for me to deal with. 

Unfortunately, the real issue here is money.  I'm not sure what lawyers typically charge for divorce cases, but this is more money than I have.  I would have to sell the house to come up with the cash to pay for an attorney (and pay for a new place to live).  That leaves a situation where I must then make arrangements to sell the house, find a new place, and hire an attorney all at the same time behind W's back. 

I will still meet with a few more attorneys before I decide which route to take.  Some offer free half hour consults, but I think those are more limited in scope

[formflier]

In the next consults, you can ask follow up questions and more focused questions based on what you have already learned.

Gather information.  Ask if attorneys will work for cash plus a note against your house, which will be paid when it sells.

Is the house in your name or joint?

FF

[maxsterling]

Often the behaviors flame out when a relationship end becomes the top issue.  Extinction Bursts to pressure you into returning to the past patterns where she has her comfort zone.  Due to the inconsistencies of her disorder, she can also morph into pull-you-back mode.  Distance can enable that, she may appear to be less disordered.  Doesn't mean she has truly changed for the better.

What are the chances that when served papers her disordered behaviros will "flame out" and she will become a rational person to work with regarding custody, etc?  My gut says zero.  But if there is a chance she could handle divorce like a halfway rational person, that would make life a whole lot simpler.  Or as the L put it to me today, she is likely to put all kinds of cogs in the wheels, ramping up lawyer fees, and causing an expensive divorce despite us not having too many financial assets to divide up.

[formflier]

My guess is she will show many sides of herself.  Perhaps even "appearing" reasonable for a bit.  Said another way, I doubt you will see just one thing or the other.

What did the L say about custody?  How did he expect her mental health history to play into that?

FF

[flourdust]

Unless there is a whole lot of complicated financials (trusts, business ownership, multiple properties), the biggest factor in the cost of a divorce is the time to come to agreement. Dispute over custody can lengthen the timetable, especially if challenges are made to the fitness of one parent, which will lead to evaluators being hired.

Dealing with a high-conflict spouse is what can really stretch out the time. If your wife is likely to be entitled and obstructionist throughout the divorce process, it can take quite a while, especially if she is facilitated by an equally high-conflict attorney.

Selling the house is an option, but if both of your names are on the title, then you can't do that without her agreement. (See above regarding high-conflict spouses.) Other options are to borrow from friends or family or your retirement account or to take on debt. The hard truth of the matter is that you are not going to come out of divorce financially unscathed. You just won't. You have to decide if the money is worth it.

[livednlearned]

The hard truth of the matter is that you are not going to come out of divorce financially unscathed.

There's a statistic somewhere in one of the articles on the site about the financial cost of divorce, how it typically takes 4-5 years to recover financially, and twice that for high-conflict divorces.

8 years was about how long it took me to recover and mine was on the expensive side (my ex was a former trial attorney representing himself, so we were in court on average once a month).

I do think there's a difference between whether someone is a high-conflict personality (as Bill Eddy describes one) and someone who (more simply) has BPD.

Not all people with BPD are high-conflict personalities. But according to Eddy, all HCPs have a personality disorder, in addition to having a target of blame (you), recruiting negative advocates, and being a persuasive blamer.

[Cat Familiar]

How are you doing Max?

[maxsterling]

Hi - sorry I've been off the radar a few days.  My cat that I had for 13 years passed away a week and a half ago, and I've been quite sad about it.  W was actually there for me regarding the cat, but she was right back on my case about things the next day. That's like salt in a wound.  I think what has me so sad about the cat is not just that he was a great cat and great friend, but he also came to me when I first bought the house and he represented an era when my life was much less complicated and I had much more freedom.  I wish I could return to that.

As I mentioned, W is on my case the same way she was before.  I was hoping with the cat passing away she would be nice to me for at least a couple of days.  I'm doing better with boundaries, though.  The other night I came home from work and she was mad about something (I knew she wanted to be mad at me about something) and she found something (not even sure what it was - wanted me to take blame for something I didn't do) - and I chose to leave when she started cursing at me and calling me names in front of the kids.    Interestingly, a few days later she told me that night she was giving the kids dinner and our D2 started saying a bunch of curse words.  A 2 year old.  I just don't understand how W does not make the connection. 

Right now I am secretly working on exit plans.  I recognize now that it will be easier if I get a few things lined up first.  I'm glad I met with the L and got some questions answered even though I can't afford to hire a L now.  I will go to a few more initial consultations and save the info.  Right now I recognize that W can't afford a L as well, and does not make enough to support herself. That means a court would require me to pay her some kind of $$, but the lawyer says that I don't make enough for that amount to be too high.  I would rather get the wheels in motion for W finding additional income so that she can support her own needs better.  Right now she is (her own initiative) looking at ways of working online part time.  I am encouraging her. 

I am going to look at a few apartments, mainly just to get info and see what may work for me.  But for now exit plan is this:

1) Talk to at least two more lawyers and gather info.
2) Look at a few apartments in secret, on my own, gather info.
3) get information on selling the house (already in process)

The big question here is how much I communicate with W about all this.  the L I talked to suggested that I have a new place all lined up, arrangements for the house to be sold lined up, and then serve her and move out the same day.   She would then have a month or two to find her own place. I hate just springing this on her suddenly, but I see it bad either way.  Thoughts?   

[mart555]

The big question here is how much I communicate with W about all this.  the L I talked to suggested that I have a new place all lined up, arrangements for the house to be sold lined up, and then serve her and move out the same day.   She would then have a month or two to find her own place. I hate just springing this on her suddenly, but I see it bad either way.  Thoughts?   

It will turn explosive no matter what. And she'll be unhappy anyways.  So pick the path of least resistance: line up everything so that she's not in the way while you do this.  Ie: you don't want to deal with suicide threats while you shop for an appartment.   

[Cat Familiar]

So sorry about the loss of your precious cat.    Our animal friends can support us in ways that people can’t, won’t, or don’t understand.

And you’re also grieving the loss of a more carefree, uncomplicated time in your life. The thought of that time gives you a lodestar for planning your future.

You’ve had a lot of hopes that your wife would respond well and have tried very hard to accommodate her wishes with the life choices you’ve made: marriage, children. Yet, there was always an underlying fear that giving her what she wanted would never be enough.

You’ve seen how she’s responded to all your attempts to make her happy. Now you are taking actions to create a healthier life for you and your children.

Seeing her patterns in the past, do you think it’s wise to share any of your plans with her?

[livednlearned]

I'm so grateful I lined everything up without informing my ex.

My lawyer advised the same thing and it was the safest.

The guilt we feel protecting ourselves is distorted and probably comes from something in our family of origin that groomed us to put other people first even if it occurred at our expense.

This is a good time to break with that indoctrination and put your safety first.

[maxsterling]

Seeing her patterns in the past, do you think it’s wise to share any of your plans with her?

I really have no idea.  But I do know that if I am going to take this route, I will do *all* my research first.  If I do approach her beforehand, it won't be "I am thinking of moving out" it will be, "I am moving out on xyz date, this is how I am going to do it, this is where I am going, etc."  No loose ends.

The danger of not giving her some notice is the safety of her and the children.  If children werent involved, I would just do it.  I just want to be sure the children are safe - because W is very likely to severely dysregulate.  According to the L, there really is no contingency plan in my area to serve an unstable person with mental health professionals or social workers present.  I would have to pay a process server (not trained in dealing with BPD), wait for W to dysregulate, then get police/others involved.  The time beween being served and getting others involved scares me.  I could contact her T with a heads up.

[maxsterling]

I'm so grateful I lined everything up without informing my ex.

My lawyer advised the same thing and it was the safest.

The guilt we feel protecting ourselves is distorted and probably comes from something in our family of origin that groomed us to put other people first even if it occurred at our expense.

This is a good time to break with that indoctrination and put your safety first.

Did you have kids at the time?  If so, what age were they?

[Harri]

This thread reached the max post limit and has been split and locked.  The discussion continues here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337999.msg13063553#msg13063553