BPDFamily.com

 :help:
I wrote about this in other threads but I think this needs a new one. I'm at my wits end.

This morning she went to work, and then I got busy too. She seemed fine, said she was OK, even though this past week she's had several medical tests ordered by her doctor to monitor some stuff.

I texted her at work, then a bit later she said the boss had sent her home because she didn't look well.

I texted an hour later and she had already started blaming me for not texting back right away, but I had just seen it.

Then a couple of hours later I get a text that she's in the hospital, but refuses to tell me what's going on and just to leave her alone.

I have no idea which hospital, and even if I did, they won't let me in because of COVID.

ME:
What happened
Please tell me what's going on
What did you go to the hospital for

Her:
Please leave me alone. We haven't  spent time together  in almost 4 days and the last 2 days you've been MIA (not true) but I'm sure you made time for things you care about. You act concerned for a few days then you hardly talk to me. I can't do this I'm alone in a hospital room and I can't count on you when I need you (how? what was I supposed to do how should I have known she was about to need hospitalization?)Not as a friend as a husband if I need you I should be able to call on you if only for support. This emotional roller-coaster doesn't help my situation. I feel good sometimes because you're present and then I need you and nothing this messes with my mental and emotional well being  which contributes to my physical health. Please we both know you don't want to be with me. I don't know how long I'll be here  but I am getting a lot of tests and have an IV I won't bother you anymore with my issues.

ME: Tests for what just answer (I kept trying to call)

HER: Let me know when we are done so you can live stress free. Don't worry about me I'm in the hospital yes it appears I only have strangers to comfort me as no one else answered me

ME: I am answering you
I in no way ignored you
This morning you said you were OK
Please what matters right now is your health

HER:Yes and emotional and mental-health contribute

ME: I did not ignore you

HER: Leave me alone

I need love and affection to get better not excuses and text messages

ME: and I had no reason to know you'd be unwell today. You didn't even know

HER: Then I texted you right after but you didn't have time

ME: I saw that an hour later and replied right away

HER: Leave me alone if you can't love me then LET ME GO. I NEED LOVE TO SURVIVE  AND AFFECTION SO LET ME HAVE IT IF NOT WITH YOU WITH SOMEONE ELSE IM FADING AWAY WITHOUT LOVE

Me: This isn't the time to argue about how long between texts. You're in the hospital and I'm concerned for you.

HER: Even now I'm hooked up to machines have had blood drawn 2x and an IV and all I get is excuses.

ME: You're in a hospital bed. A relationship talk isn't what matters most right now.

HER: How do you EVEN know what matters most

ME: Life matters most

HER: And love is a part of life
People die because of lack of love
Look it up

ME: If it's stressing you more for me to text then I'll stop and check in later
Just tell me what you want

HER: Of course you're too busy for me

ME:I  don't want to contribute to your suffering
But you just said leave you alone cause it's adding to it
I've been trying to call and text sinc you told me
How am I being too busy for you

HER:Your lack of love, attention, intimacy affection causes me suffering

ME: what do you want right now
I am not being busy or ignoring you
Obviously I can't come inside the hosptal

A while later:
O hope you're able to rest. When you see this can I please have the contact for the nurse or doctor so I can follow up if you're asleep or unable to reply
Which hospital

So now I'm sure that when she gets home, it's all going to be my fault she was hospitalized, I made this happen because I wasn't feeling how I was supposed to feel, not being loving and affectionate. I can't just run away while she's in a hospital bed, but I know she's going to be worse than ever when she gets home.

It's probably anxiety related, as this isn't the first time.

What do I do? :help:

Hey...this is hard stuff.

She doesn't want to tell you and wants you to leave her alone.

Why not believe her.

I can't imagine text arguments will help.

Call hospital and send her flowers.  Give her space.  Let her know that you will check back in with her sometime tomorrow (give her a time)

Best,

FF

Thanks FF

What about the fact that I still do want a divorce? Would trying to send flowers etc make it worse in the long run?

I'm not going to tell her I want a divorce while she's in a hospital bed, but I also don't want these health issues to be the next thing that charms me back into staying.

Her health will be what it is regardless, but I still know that I want out of this ASAP.

I even looked at an apartment the other day.

Focus on the next couple days. 

Don't send red roses, just a nice selection and a get well card.

Again...the big message she is sending you...believe it.

Give her space.

Best,

FF

FF
What's the big message she is sending me?

And about space, her grievance is that I don't respond enough or fast enough or that I'm not concerned or too busy. So if I keep doing that now, won't it make things even worse?

Anyway, that was BRUTAL.

She came home and I was waiting for her and took her inside and made some tea. Then I got her to eat something and removed the stuff they put on her and helped her change and tucked her in.

OF COURSE we still wound up in the same cycle of conversation till 3:30 am, where first she goes back to the same broken record of neglected victim, things she thinks I said before we got married which I've told her repeatedly she misunderstood, the whole story of her life and why she has abandonment issues and how she's trying but she needs patience from me, the same exact conversation I've heard since last year.

Finally she starts calming down, making more sense, apologizing, saying how she knows that the way she blames and reacts and expresses herself is wrong and that it pushes me away but it's the only way she knows how because she's always been a victim and never had a choice in her relationships on and on and on the same exact words as always.

I take no heart in the fact that she seems to have reached some understanding or self awareness by the end of the exercise. We've been here before, and next time she feels overwhelmed it will all go out the window, nothing I've ever done will have mattered, weather good things or even my failures at keeping boundaries to appease her. None of it will matter, there will only be self-righteous indignation, the sob story, the broken record, and I'll be the bad, bad man who's not affectionate and made her ill through emotional neglect.

I realize that no matter how many of these conversations we have, when i do leave her, she will only have that same story she always tells when she's upset. She'll always just see me as having tricked her into marrying me by pretending to be a nice guy and then transforming into a horrible person because I can't be affectionate with someone who FOGs me. I just can't and I don't want to be.

One point I made in response for the first time was how if I'm some kind of trickster, I'd have to be the worst trickster in the world because what does she imagine I'm gaining from any of this. I said that men trick women to take advantage of them, or make money off of them or for sex. Since her main complaint is we don't have sex, and I certainly never take her money, but have instead suffered throughout this thing as much as she has, losing sleep, losing weight, affecting my work and peace of mind and have been more miserable than ever in my life, what kind of trick was that that I somehow perpetrated against her?

She had to response no that one, which is rare for her.

Even her broken record of grievances apply equally to me, but I don't use them as some manipulative sob story. She complains how she doesn't have anybody to support her; nobody to turn to. Well, I have nobody within thousands of miles, but she retorts that I'm used to being alone and she's not. She says we're supposed to turn to each other and that's why she overburdens me, but I can't feel her feelings for her and manage them all for her.

It's just really bad and exhausting. Marriage to a pwBPD is a lose-lose situation. They will always feel wronged and hurt no matter what you do. Staying isn't helping them at all but surely hurts me. Any compromise or effort is essentially sucked into a black whole within 24 hours. Any understanding they seem to have come to is guaranteed to evaporate the next time their chattering minds tell them otherwise.

You'd think we had married crazy people or something. Oh, wait...

hello siochain,



You are having a circular conversation siochain.   There are long technical descriptions of circular arguments/conversations that you can find if you google but most simply put a circular conversation is where two people deadlock on a certain point and the conversation loops that topic endlessly in a non productive way.   No useful information is shared.    The conversation just degrades until one party exhausts and collapses.  There is no such thing as resolution when this type of conversation is utilized.   Both parties are  embedded in their position.   the longer a circular conversation continues the more damaging it is.   for both parties.   eventually both feel disrespected, hurt, bullied or threatened. because the other person is not understanding.   

I would strongly recommend you NOT engage in circular conversations.


this is likely true.    people with BPD are pre-programmed to believe no one will ever love them,   no one will ever care for them.    essentially they replay or relive the early abandonment that left them with this deep wound.   the sensitivity to rejection, whether real or perceived will always be part of the response.

so understanding that her default position is 'I need love to survive and no one will ever give it to me',  the person who needs to change these conversations is ...bluntly ... you.

Why stay in a conversation that is going round and round until 3:30AM?    what did you hope to accomplish and what did you actually accomplish?    Why engage in a text exchange when both of you are stressed?   Actually why communicate around emotional topics by text at all?   

I would suggest you need boundaries around these types of circular conversations.   If you are interested I would suggest you take some time and look back at the maladaptive conversation style.    Try to pull it apart to learn where the conversation went off the rails, and how you could have redirected it to a better place.   Do you feel up to giving it a shot?

'ducks

So, it's important that you understand "why" pwBPD seem to like these circular conversations.  It's likely NOT a conscious thought on their part.

Big picture question:  How does she get your attention?  To pay attention to her?

My guess is over time the more unreasonable she became..the more attention she got from you (likely trying to talk her into being reasonable)

Well, maybe a month later she tries it again, you are weary and don't respond (don't give her as much attention as she wants) so she has to "take it up a notch".  And guess what, you respond...

So, over time, the "healthy ways" to get your attention kinda go away and the unhealthy ways get more prominent...and will continue to grow as long as you "feed the monster"

I realize you didn't consciously "feed the monster" while you wife was hospitalized.  It was a scary and uncertain time.  That would be a tough one for even the most seasoned of us to navigate.

Still...big picture, when someone says "leave me alone".  Guess what the "healthy" advice is?


When someone wants a circular argument  in the middle of the night "Babe...this seems important to you.  I want to give it my full attention when I'm fresh from a good nights sleep.  Let's talk through this over brunch tomorrow."   (Then you go to bed...let her do...her...you do you.)


I really think you should sat aside trying to figure out when to leave for a bit.  Let's focus on boundaries.

Because...if you leave and she ropes you back with unhealthy tactics (any doubt she will try?) your relationship will continue to deteriorate.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

FF
So I have to stay and work on boundaries when I just want out?

If/when you leave you will need to communicate effectively during the course of the separation process.

Having boundaries will be helpful with what ever direction you take.

babyducks,
Thanks. What kinds of communication should I expect, being that we have no children or joint anything, her name on the lease etc.

Couldn't I just leave and go NC? I've read of many people here doing whatever legal/paperwork stuff through their lawyers rather than directly.

Since there are no children and no joint accounts and you want to leave...you are still there because?

Serious question.

Best,

FF

FF mostly it's been the FOG, and I've been working up the nerve. Also, when she's at her worst, I feel like I couldn't care less about her and really wish I never see her or hear her voice again, but once she's exhausted herself and has calmed down again, I see the person I chose to marry and it makes me feel bad.

Tonight she was so self-aware, accurately described everything she does and the thought/emotional process behind it, took full responsibility, asked to run her journaling by me so I can have input. I thought of asking her to make a recording, her calm/sane self advising her out-of-control self telling her whatever she thinks she would need to hear in that moment.

She admitted she thinks in villain/victim terms when she loses it, but that once she calms down she knows that none of it's true, that I've never wronged her, and that as an adult she needs to manage her own emotions.

I told her that what worries me is, if we had this talk 6 months ago it would be encouraging and I'd think we'd gotten somewhere, made some progress, and slept better that night, but since we've been on this (not so)merry-go-round so many times before, I already know it's very possible she can make this much sense and then within an hour to a day later it all goes out the window and it's crazy time again (didn't use that expression though).

She kept nodding and "getting it", but of course I don't trust it.

From what you describe, you and your wife have been stuck in this pattern of non productive high conflict volatile communication for a long time.  what we here would call the 'cycle of conflict'.    how many long highly charged emotionally intense relationship talks have you had with your wife in the last month?    and what have they produced?   my guess would be they produced more conflict.

Is there any reason to think if you communicate to her that you want to leave, that you want a divorce the communication pattern is going to go any different than it has been?  

Is there any reason to believe that if you tell her how you feel things will be understood?    Or is there rather more evidence of the conversation adding more conflict and more hurt to an already hurtful situation?

Now your wife has some medical issues that need to be sorted out.  (is she on your health insurance or is that separate?)   that adds more drama.

I think what people are suggesting is that you take a time out.   take a moment and let both of you catch your breath.    let some of the heightened emotions settle.
    
could you take a look at this link?   what do you think?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0)

That's what I figured.

Listen, most people don't just climb way up and jump off the high dive.

They try something lower, maybe even just jumping in the pool from the side.

And, let's tie this together with circular arguments.  When is the last time your wife wanted to discuss something at an odd hour, and you said no...and got the sleep you need?

https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

I would suggest you focus first on the circular argument post.  If you are not "getting it", then stay there.

Once you can understand them, then we need to figure out what to do with them.

Best,

FF

In my experience, they're much more self aware than we think and many times, their self-honesty is quite refreshing to us... until it all gets thrown outta the window in the next scene just a little while later.

You said you want out (multiple times). What are you looking for? Our blessing? (lol sorry for the joke)
I kind of see what people are trying to tell you. Even if you leave, you seem to have a problem with boundaries (as I do and as I'm sure many people here do), that could well repeat on the next r/s you look for and thus the same patterns could repeat someway. So why not practice it right now if you feel you haven't yet tried everything and this could lead to your desired break-up when expectations begin to clash or some miraculous healing perhaps.
If you really want out, just leave, there's really no right way to do it. She will hate you for it, if that's what you're avoiding. No matter how beautiful you try to word your break-up, she will take it personally and as an offense. But again, you owe her nothing. It's your life, and you're doing no one a favour by staying when you don't really want to.
If you're looking for a middle-ground, opt for some "time-out". See how you feel without her. Do you miss her or do you feel relief? But be prepared, it's pretty much a one-way street. It's kind of the same thing as a divorce, but it just sounds nicer.

Whether siochain leaves his wife or stays the immediate path forward is going to contain a moderate amount of conflict.

Learning to set boundaries and take an effective 'time out',  will help lessen the conflict and hurt that they both experience.

I think we can agree that would be a good thing.

You have all made excellent points about learning to stand by my boundaries for myself regardless of what happens.
I have read the articles and I believe I understand.
Thank you.
I'm still scared  lol

Being scared is normal.  If you weren’t scared, I’d be concerned you aren’t understanding what paths lie ahead for you.  Here is a rule of thumb: the longer you are with someone, the more important they become to you.  So, of course, it’s gonna hurt if you leave.  it’s also gonna hurt if you stay.  Either way will be painful.  But one path may lead to a less painful future. 

etoili,
Thanks for your answer. I feel it's empathic, but also scared me a bit more. When you say if I wasn't scared you'd be concerned that i didn't really understand what I'm embarking on, do you just mean emotionally the pain of leaving a marriage?

Many have agreed that we can't accurately predict another's behavior, but seeing as we have no children, or joint property, my name isn't on the lease or anything else forcing us to have a complicated disengagement, were I to just decide one day to get away, and then call or send a message and then begin NC, is it unthinkable that I can just move on with my life without something horrible coming from her end?

I don't expect her to be stoic or philosophical about it, however isn't it fathomable that she very well may just not be a high conflict type, and that she'll just be upset privately but not attempt to come after me somehow?

Also, something new has come to light which may be able to help me get out of this more easily, but I've made so many posts I'm not sure when to introduce it to get feedback.

That can work.  Hooray for you!  You're beginning to contemplate ways to resolve your dilemmas.

How she might overreact... Yes, the first days and weeks will be scary.  Likely she will try harder to sabotage your determination to leave.  What if she claims you were an abuser or similar in an attempt to make you pay for leaving?  For that reason, don't delete her posts begging you to come back, you might need them later.  Also, you need to be on your best behavior, don't let her get you so frustrated that you lose your composure.  If she can get you to yell at her or say something that she can characterize as abusive or threatening, then that would be gifting her ammunition.

thanks for taking the time to read the links siochain.   I really appreciate that.  it helps when we have a common set of ideas and examples to start our discussions.


you are right, we can't accurately predict.  Still it makes sense to plan for what may happen and not have to wing it in the event it occurs.

My experience was that my Ex left me.   with the typical messages.   I was a horrible person.   I was never really there for her.   I never really committed to her.   She was frightened of me, didn't feel emotionally safe with me.    We didn't have a lot of tangible things to split up but she felt entitled to a significant amount of money.   beyond what was reasonable.

what happened for me was she had one of those periods of dsyregulation - I hate you,   you don't do anything to care for me,  you never really loved, this relationship doesn't work... etc etc.   I am sure you know how this goes.    And I said Okay.    You are right.   I am leaving.    And moved back into my condo in the city.    this was - mind you - her idea.    

and within 2 weeks I started seeing her every where.   she became a member of social organizations that I was member of.   she starting going to the sports club where I had season tickets.   her car was often in the parking lot across from my condo.    the park where I walked my dogs - she was often there.  for almost 2 years I saw her or a glimpse of her every day.    the whole time - telling people that I was horrible and scary.

it's five years later and I still see her someplace about once every two weeks.  my experience was fairly mild compaired to some on this board.



she could.    she could ghost you.    just disappear never to be heard from again.   still siochain that would also not be a normal breakup, complete with a reasonable amount of closure.    and it would still leave you to deal with the emotional fallout from what you have just been through.    make sense?


as always ForeverDad nails it, when he says don't gift her with ammunition.    FormFlier would say 'don't pour gas on the fire'.     I would tell you 'don't JADE'.    Don't Justify, Argue, Defend or Endlessly Explain.     Learn the tools and skills to disengage from conflict.    Learn to not add conflict to the situation.    It's really a skill like playing the piano.

'ducks

Thank you, Ducks and that all makes sense.

I'm not at all minimizing what you went through, but I wish she would be the one to leave me. I've done everything that would make a normal person initiate ending it. She knows I don't want to continue as she said  herself from the hospital " we both know you don't want to be with me ".

But then tonight she was back to "this is where we are. My feelings haven't changed so we're still here for some reason.  I haven't done anything but you're still stressing yourself out and making yourself miserable. You're not in any real danger. I'm not threatening you and haven't done that in months. So you have no reason to still feel this way. Every day I choose to be happy and push away negative thoughts. You can do the same if you want to. People live in warzones or are homeless and they still choose to be positive. You're not in that situation and you can choose to accept whatever comes your way and make the most of it and be positive ".

I didnt engage this time and there was no circular conversation. Just her rambling, sobbing, pouting, then trying to guilt me to which I just said NO MORE OF THAT. NO MORE BLAME.

I still don't feel able to end this in person. I'm considering calling from a safe place.

She doesn't seem capable of understanding that how I feel about her now can be permanently affected by the fact that she HAS done the things she admitted to in the past. Lots of FOG and threats. To her, it's still my choice to not get over it and be good.

I understand siochain.    this is hard stuff.    this is a hard place to be in.   and you are doing fine.    this is not a sprint.   understanding and change doesn't come over night.   it comes in little increments.    in tiny baby steps forward.


oommph.   okay siochain.    first this is just between us here on the boards,  don't share this with your wife.    this is something just for you.    what she is saying here is nonsense.   it's invalidating.    it's emotional abusive.  it controlling.   she doesn't get to tell you how to feel, or what to feel or how long to feel it.   she is not in charge of what you feel.    you feel what you feel.    pressuring you to 'match' her emotional state is a sign/symptom of her disordered thinking and her lack of personal boundaries.

still with me?


you are right.    this is guilt.   this is maladaptive.    it's also one-upmanship.   "I am doing this and I am doing it better than you, see how I am making better choices."    it's also Not True.   subtle comparisons about who is better/who is worse,   who is right/who is wrong, is distorted/disordered reality.   



good job in not engaging.    |iiii   that's a step forward.    that's a big deal.  give yourself credit.     



No.  Right now she probably isn't capable.    She is getting something out of these endless conversations about how you should feel.    Yes she really is.    By dumping her negative emotions on you  - she gets to feel better about herself.    "what I did really wasn't that bad - its siochain whose at fault here - I am fine".   all the anger, fear, insecurity she feels she is turning it around and projecting it on you.   you want to stop these conversations.   

do you think you could say something like "we've talked about this before , and I won't have another conversation about the same thing.   I am going to sleep on the sofa."   in your own words of course.   I am just using this as a quick example. and then can you get up and go sleep on the sofa?

how would that go if you tried that?

'ducks

These types of "you feel" (FFw to me) conversations where a MASSIVE part of my relationship with my wife for far too long.  I would get stuck in my logical place of debating with her that she isn't a mind reader and how unreasonable it was for her to pretend to be (also sending her a subtle ..or not so subtle..message that I'm better than you...I don't do this)

Then she would claim that my actions "tell her things" and if I would act differently, she wouldn't say these things.  So I would act differently...she would still say the same thing and I would protest and she would kinda have a "poor FF..he tried so hard, he just can't follow instructions" ...kinda thing (see the manipulation?  See the one upmanship...uggggggggg)

So...now when FFw "goes there" I act a bit surprised/befuddled and say/ask something like "Oh babe...let me clear my mind and pay attention.  Are you asking about my feelings?"

To her credit..sometimes she actually will say yes...and I will continue the conversation.

If she says "no", then I politely excuse myself...leaving the door open to further conversation.

"Oh...ok, I'm going to go fix a cup of hot chocolate.  Want one?  I've got time if you want to listen to my feelings about (insert subject)."

OK..so usually this doesn't "work"...if "working" means that she actually listens to my feelings in any kind of productive way.

If "working" means circular arguments are avoided and/or dysregulation and rage is brief...then it works wonderfully.

Note:  I'm not saying that what you said about "no more..." is bad.  I used to use it more and still do from time to time.

It will take some trial and error and most likely you will need several "go to" phrases and ways of dealing with it.

A new thing I'm trying...and I kinda like so far is "Oh babe...this conversation is starting to sound like bickering.  I don't want that for us.  I'm going to take a break."

See how I own it.

Back to big picture:  FFw (and pwBPD in general) do "get something" from these weird conversations.  They get that on some level and will be surprised and feel stymied with new "healthy" tactics from us.  Expect them to try various ways to "get that stuff again" from us.

Best,

FF

Do you have a plan for how you will logistically leave the relationship?

As in, a hotel or apartment? Friend or family's place? A way to get your things transferred so you aren't having to negotiate for your stuff after you leave?

Especially important papers and documents. 

Take a minute to think about "your home office" or other things like that.
What passwords does she know?

Joint accounts?

You are right to be concerned about what a disordered person may do.

Best,

FF

Thanks everyone.


About logistics stuff:
I already put my important papers in a backpack and stored it at a friend's.

There are a couple of days a week where she works outside of the house and leaves very early.

We have no joint anything. She was already living in the apartment when we married and it's only her name on the lease. She doesn't know any passwords.

OK, and do you have digital backups of your important papers? 

Any "real" pictures that are important to you?  Books?

Best,

FF

I actually moved to this city with very few things so there's not much concern in that regard. I have my passport and important papers in the backpack in a safe place where I can stay once I leave.

It's so mind boggling to me.

Last night was horrible, but I held my ground with avoiding a circular conversation and just let her ramble.

Tonight, she simply decided everything's fine and acted like Mary Poppins. She was all smiles and laughter and baked some sort of dessert.

She said " I don't want to start a big conversation, but I wanted to apologize for last night.  I thought about some of the things I said and I realized that even then, I had been FOGging.".

Yes, I taught her that acronym.

Then she said " when I see you stressed, I get frustrated because i don't know what to do. My go-to is affection, but i know that right now, that doesn't help."

I built on that and said " the thing with you initiating affection is it's a double whammy. First I'm not comfortable, then you feel hurt and get mad because I'm not comfortable.  Do you understand? "

She said yes.

Not an hour had passed but she was grasping for my hand, trying to snuggle up to me and kiss me, taking my arm and putting it around her.

I can't understand this, and worse, it worries me that it will make my announcement even more difficult. She can tell herself that I was just acting normal the other day, and she hasn't "done anything ", so how can this be happening?

I don't know what to do at all.

What is is you don't understand siochain?    What specifically are you having a hard time grasping?

for pwBPD,  the emotion of the moment feels like it is totally accurate, 100% correct and like it will last forever.   Until it doesn't.    and then the next emotion is totally accurate, 100% correct and going to last forever.


Why?   What's your thinking with this?    Are you hoping to heal her?   Change her thinking?   Cure her?


You appear to be overly identified with her thinking.     You appear so identified with her, trying to figure out what she might tell herself or what she could do,... that you can't identify what you are going to think or do.


Can you say more about what is keeping you stuck in this dilemma?   

Well I guess what I don't understand is how she can proactively bring something up, accurately assess it, and then do the exact opposite is half hour later.

How she can seemingly understand and then de-understand back to back.

Yes, I know her mind works differently but it's still hard to grasp, and it frightens me.

That's why the phrase feelings equal facts is used over and over again.

Think of it this way.   Logically you know that eating a bunch of donuts and washing them down with a soda is a poor choice.    Its not healthy.    Way too much sugar.

But one day you see your favorite donuts.   A big box of them.    And the emotion of the moment says dang I really want them.   And you grab some.    The emotion of the moment overwhelmed the logical brain.

I'm sure you've experienced something like that.

I just responded to her happy well wishing texts with :

Something concerned me last night. You brought up and said yourself that you get frustrated when you see me stressed because you feel helpless, and that your go-to is affection, but that you know that makes it worse.

Then you proceeded to be affectionate right afterwards, reaching for my hand, taking my arm and putting it around yourself, trying to snuggle up to me.

She just said " wow ok enjoy your day".

Me: do you understand why that concerned me?
Her: Yes

I know, I know. She understands this second, till she doesn't understand 10 minutes from now and j shouldn't bother anymore.

I guess part of me still believes that if I lay all of this groundwork she'll somehow understand and it will make leaving easier.

Yes, but I'd be aware as I washed down the donuts


With this, awareness shifts by the minute

That's because you don't have a mental illness that makes processing information difficult.

So should I stop trying to communicate these things to her?

It doesn't seem right to go through motions and suddenly leave and make the call.

But since she can't process it anyway...

Ooof

If when she reached for my hand I just said NO! and pulled back, I'd be in for a night even with my new non-engagement in circular conversations. Screaming and sobbing isn't something I can block out and get to work the next day.

I don't blame her for saying wow, okay,  enjoy your day.  I probably would have said something similar.

And to be very clear,    I am not suggesting you "not bother any more".   I am pretty sure what has been suggested is that you put your efforts into construction conversion not destructive discussions.

Ducks,
You're right.  I am overly identified with her thinking.  And I think the reason is that she scared  ne.

I've never been scared in a relationship before.  I'm not usually a pushover in life or in relationships, but for some reason, after all of the scary stuff, I dont recognize myself anymore when it comes to her.

I think you're right about it triggering something from my past. She reminds me of my father, who I'm almost certain had either NPD or BPD although undiagnosed despite decades of lame therapy .

He scared me so much as a kid, and even as an adult I could not communicate with him. Feelings equaled facts to him just like they do here.

I'm shaking just writing this. I've arranged a safe exit. I've made difficult phone calls and even face to face meetings before.  I've been through things that most people haven't and got passed them. (Really scary things most people would only see in films) and was alright after.

But with her, I'm paralyzed with fear.

I said difficulties in processing.    Not impossible.

This website has tons of lessons about communication.  

Communication with a pwBPD requires grade A skills.   Especially around relationship topics.   Validation.    SET.   DEARMAN.   things like that.

Thanks for telling us about your father.   I can really see how that would have a strong impact.    It makes sense.

Can you name the fear that is paralyzing you?  Is it fear of violence?   Fear of failure?   Fear of vulnerability?   Something else entirely?

Fear of her reaction and its unpredictability

I would make the call this very moment if I felt sure I'd just be in my safe place and never hear from or about her again.

It's the unpredictability that's making it so hard to work up the nerve.  I have no idea how she'll respond.

She's never been physically violent with me nor threatened to. She's repeatedly told me that if I left her I'd simply never hear from her again " but dont come looking for me when you need someone to talk to"..(the irony).

I hope so much that at least those self-assessment are true, but I also know she has no idea herself how she'd respond.

I've tried piecing together how she responded last time she was divorced, and there doesn't seem to have been any drama; just solitary silent depression on her part for a while.

Here's what I see, tell me if I have it wrong.

With your father you were a child,   dependent upon him for nurturing, care giving,   emotional and physical substance.   When he had a bad day and lashed out it felt inherently dangerous.

It feels the same way now with your wife.   When she lashes out it feels like you are the same powerless kid who has no options or choices.

It very much feels that way.   Feels that way quite strongly from what you write.    Except you aren't that little boy anymore.   You do have choices and options.    If you can convince yourself that they actually do exist.

Ducks,
Yes, exactly.

Really great that you can identify that.    Amazing work.   Very good job.

There's ways to explore this and maybe see if you can get more comfortable.   If you are up for it.

Ever hear of something called an emotional flashback?  They are kind of like a PTSD flashback but not quite the same.   Let's say that as a young kid you had surgery,   maybe your tonsils were removed and now as an adult you feel vaguely uncomfortable under bright steel lights.   In your head you know there's nothing wrong with those lights but in your emotions bright round steel lights equal yucky stuff,  so unconsciously you want to move away from them.

How's that explanation?

I think it's spot on.

I'm actually sitting in my secret safe space right now. I got the keys and she doesn't know about it.

I'm thinking maybe on Sunday to come here, make the call and simply say:

I can't keep doing this. Keeping us both in this limbo is unfair and hurtful to both of us. I'm sorry but it's over.

Then, whatever she says, keep repeating " I'm sorry it's over.

I understand.  I'm sorry.  It's over.

If she starts threatening, say :no more threats. I'm sorry it's over.

Whatever she tries, I'm sorry its over.

Without but. Old habit.

I'm wondering if it might be wise to set aside "the talk" or "the call" for a week or so.  It seems like you are looking at some very big emotional connections/issues.

Probably best to focus on those...see where there is to see, feel what there is to feel...without worrying about when you are going to make big decisions/announcements in your relationship.

What do you think?

Best,

FF

Repeating the same thing over is one of the skills recommended when dealing with verbal abuse and emotional manipulation.

At some point you will need to end the call if she won't.  

EDIT to add: Leaving is a different process for each of us.

For me, the more awareness and commitment I felt about leaving, the harder it was to remain. It started to get more dangerous. 

My ex could sense a shift and it kicked his more controlling behaviors into high gear.

siochain, it comes down to what feels right for you.

Let's try and stay in the moment for now.   Let's stay in the now.   Right now you are safe.   Right now in this instant you are powerful.    Right now you are taking care of yourself and doing what is necessary.

I want you to stand up.    Really.    Stand up as tall as you can and stretch your arms as wide as you can.   Reach for the ceiling.    Really stretch.    Spread out your feet and prove to your body that you are balanced.

That's a technique for quieting an emotional flash back.   Reorient your self in your adult body.  

I would suggest calming the flash back is the place to focus today.   Okay?

I think I am with FF on this.   You are being driven to create a sense of safety.   We can help with that.   What would be ideal is for you to be able to generate sensations of safety that is separate from her and what she may or may not do.

Creating safety and comfort will make it easier to stay with an appropriate message with her.

Thank you all.

I get what you're saying, but I don't want it to linger more than it has to. I think the more it lingers, the more can go wrong.  Plus she keeps pushing for affection and intimacy, reaching for my hand and I want to get away. If I give in it sends the wrong message.  If I don't, I'm in for hearing her go on and on about how I'm affecting her mental health by withholding love.

So I really just want to get this done already.

I have found a therapist who knows about bpd and offered to take me on pro bono.

I'll be alright.  I dont want to keep going through this uncertainty for another 2 weeks.

I did the standing exercise just now. Thank you

Sending you positive thoughts, siochain.

Whether you stay or go, I'll be thinking about you.

You have friends pulling for you  :hug:

Thank you livednlearned, and everyone else for taking the time to reply and advise me.

I'm sitting alone in the dark right now, after doing my best to have a nice day and give my mind a rest from it all.

I so much want this all to be behind me. I keep feeling scared when I think about just going to the safe place and making the call.

hello siochain,

yesterday we talked a little about emotional flashbacks.    I'd like to return to that for just a while if its okay with you?    Emotional flashbacks are a tough topic and you already have a lot on your plate.     

First its perfectly okay to have flashbacks.    many of us here have them.    I do.   I learned coping techniques here and through other resources.    they really help.

Here are the symptoms of an emotional flashback:
Feeling overwhelmed
Nervousness
Dissociation or “under water” feeling
Anger
Emotional detachment
Avoidance of activities, people or places
Physical tremors
Racing heart
Muscle tension
Sweating
Stomach upset
Fear of abandonment or rejection

recognize any of them?      Pete Walker who is a recognized expert on emotional flashbacks said this:
This fear you are describing about making the call is pretty intense.    It sounds pretty overwhelming to me and I am just hearing about it through the internet. 

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=315252.0 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=315252.0)

This link will help you manage the flashback if you are having one.   I am suggesting you think about ways to manage the fear regardless if you make the call, when you make the call, how you make the call or where you make the call.   You see I am considering your sensations as separate and distinctly different from what you have going with your wife.    Oh yes they are related to be sure.   what I am hearing is that you have triggered into an overwhelming state of fear AND you have a dysfunctional relationship with your wife.   both are pretty huge things to be dealing with on their own.    put them together and yikes.

I'm going to stop here and let you absorb some of this.    Let me know what you think.

'ducks

I'll add a brief thought...

In my life, when I've had a choice between "being reflective" and making a relationship choice...and I've chosen to make the relationship choice first and "reflect later"...well..."almost always" I've regretted the order that I did things.

Sure...maybe I was able to use tools and cleanup the mess I contributed to with the relationship choice...yet I still regretted not taking the time to sit with my feelings and my thought (especially uncomfortable ones).

 :hug: :hug:

Please...please don't experience this as criticism.  This is someone that cares that is encouraging you to "spend" your limited emotional energy on yourself FIRST, then figure out how to communicate relationship decisions later.

Be kind to yourself...take the time.

Best,

FF

Ducks and FF,

Thank you both.


I'm sure you're both right; I am being triggered and I will be better off getting myself into the right state before pulling the plug.


My issue is that she's so pushy that each day that passes with her is a challenge.  She can't understand even pulling back a bit or giving me space. Just push push push.

The more she does that, the more I just want to rush running away.


I dont want to be physical with her in any way, not even hand holding. She pushes nonstop for affection, and it's either fine give her the hug or hold her hand or deal with another episode.

I don't want to make it worse by sending mixed messages, don't want to have to hear her ranting at me about how I'm causing her harm by not being affectionate.  I just avoid her as much as possible now.

Still I can't go too long without it becoming a conflict, even with my newly learned non-engagement.

It also bothers me to know I'll always be the bad guy no matter what. Once the smoke clears and I'm really gone, I'll definitely  be this emotionally abusive husband who put her through a nightmare by marrying her and then withdrawing, withholding affection, and causing her all of this misery.

I'm sure that once she gets done with this sob story, even her new T will be completely onboard with it, telling her how much she's suffered and endured with such a harmful man.

I'll be the evil, selfish man who didn't care, who saw her fading away due to his own choices, to the point of hospitalization, and then wouldn't even comfort her with a hug. "All I wanted was a hug/kiss/ intimacy with my husband and it was this big problem ".

I know it shouldn't  matter etc etc etc but I feel bad knowing this.

Would it be horrible to just get to my safe place and send a text? Chicken out but not have to hear her response and then do the work alone and with a T? I can't take this wondering limbo anymore and want it to be over.

The piece on flashbacks says to avoid triggering people.  That's the whole challenge. She's the triggering person and how much can I possibly avoid her, especially when she can't even back off a little.

This is really hard stuff...

Be proactive...let her know you need space and then take the space. 

"Hey...I realize you want closeness with me tonight.  I need privacy/space to think and feel some stuff I need to sort out.  Will it be easier for you if I take a couple days away?"

How do you think she would react to this?

 :hug: :hug:

Best,

FF

Let me second the thought on goals. 

It's important that when you make a big relationship decision that you stick with it because if you were to make a big decision and then get manipulated out of that decision...you will end up in a far worse situation...FAR WORSE...than if you had stuck with status quo.

Reference again her tendency to push...push...push.    One of the reasons she does that it she believes it works...at least works enough for her to try...and try again...and again.

Hey...what if you amended my suggestion and simply inform her you are going to take some time away (vice asking if you should stay).

Instead of figuring out if you should go to safe place and call...or text or...?

How about you get to a safe place...and be safe?

 :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

We are rooting for you!

Best,

FF

You have competing wishes.

One is to go. Be done.
The other is to manage guilt.

Staying kicks up sensations in the body that are overwhelming and trauma-related (revulsion, fear).
Going will kick up different sensations in the body (guilt).

The only person who knows what you feel capable of managing is you.

How other people respond is out of your control. More than likely, you pay attention to the narrative that most consumes you (like people judging you harshly).

Not everyone will think that and a surprising number of people might not really care one way or another. You are concerned about the ones who think the things that most bother you.


A trauma therapist I worked with would have me do grounding exercises like look for all the things in the room the color blue.

Or notice sensations in my body. My breathing. How my hands felt. What my muscles were doing.

It's checking in versus checking out.

Ideally, you would feel grounded going through this. You would have a new narrative.

It's also work that you can do after the fact.

Either way is acceptable. Neither is horrible. One might be more preferable than the other.

You're the only one who knows what's going to be easier/better/more difficult.

What other people think will vary widely, and have more to do with their own stuff than yours.



You're doing something against your will in order to protect yourself. This is pretty common for people who don't feel safe in an intimate relationship.

Have you noticed any changes in how you feel? Is it getting harder to do this? Or is it becoming somewhat more tolerable (as you imagine yourself leaving)?

It's harder. I don't even want to be in the same room with her.

This is much easier (relatively) to solve than getting out of a room and sending her the "correct" message to signal the end of the relationship.

You have said the quote above is so many different ways...it leaps off the page at me (and perhaps other readers).  I'm not detecting any conflict in this. 

Compare this to how you "seem" about communicating about the long term trajectory of your relationship.   There is much more conflict there.

So...can you honor your feelings that you are sure about?  Would you feel differently with space...physical space between you and her?

Is what I'm saying ringing true with you?

Best,

FF

FF-
The first part is ringing true. Can you help me understand the second a bit more?

I now have a mattress in the safe space and am laying back after having made myself some lunch. I just want to be here and never have to be back over there again.
Saturdays she leaves very early and works outside the house till about 5 or 6. I could be happy here without the dark cloud hovering above my head.

I'm thinking:
Instead of trying to work up the nerve to initiate the talk or call or text, focus on what you guys are telling me in the meantime, and as much as possible not think about her.
Then, the very next time she kicks up any trouble, take that as my cue to simply " I can't do this anymore.  I'm sorry.it's over and I'm leaving ".and stick to repeating no matter what she says or does and get out of there.
I even thought of my route back to my safe place to not be followed.

I'm going to back up to what livednlearned said:


let me ask,... with what you know today, ... with the information you have at hand...    without overthinking it ... your first, right off the top of your head answer...what do you think you are capable of managing today?

it seems to me that you are stuck in this loop, afraid to go,  afraid to stay.   and every trip around this loop you make the more you get twisted up like a pretzel and the more afraid you  become.

without focusing on her, her reactions, her response, her behavior what do you think you might do for you to make yourself feel better and relax your thinking?

'ducks

I dont know because all of my feeling stuck really is about her reaction.

If her reaction wasn't an issue I'd end it this very moment.

Her reaction isn't an imaginary phobia. Its something in the real world that concerns me very much.

I like this...

How did you feel figuring out a detail to keep you safe...(safer)? 

Best,

FF

FF-
It feels freeing.

Really I don't have a reason to assume real danger.  I've never seen her act violently or threaten violence of any kind.

Your main concern is that she will say bad things about you?

To people who know both of you?

I think so

I went for a long walk and almost wanted to just get it over with while out. Then we spoke and she asked what time I'd be home. It's been hard trying to work up the nerve. 
I'm not sure if I'll play it by ear and see how I feel in her presence if I can initiate the talk and then escape.  Or if I'll have to keep status quo yet some more or chicken out or try by phone later.

I just don't know but I do know I want to be done .

What you haven't Accepted is that you can't manage nor control her reaction, much less fix her.  Just caring for yourself is about all you can manage, don't you think?  There's Acceptance as one of the Five Stages of Grieving a Loss.  There's also something called Radical Acceptance.


For days you've been circling around and around, tearing yourself apart.  Step back.  Give yourself some breathing room and time to gather your equilibrium.  Please.  She's an adult too, as messed up as she is, she's an adult and is responsible for herself, besides she has doctors and family to look after her too.  Gift yourself the opportunity to help yourself.