HELP what should I do now?

[siochain]

It's so mind boggling to me.

Last night was horrible, but I held my ground with avoiding a circular conversation and just let her ramble.

Tonight, she simply decided everything's fine and acted like Mary Poppins. She was all smiles and laughter and baked some sort of dessert.

She said " I don't want to start a big conversation, but I wanted to apologize for last night.  I thought about some of the things I said and I realized that even then, I had been FOGging.".

Yes, I taught her that acronym.

Then she said " when I see you stressed, I get frustrated because i don't know what to do. My go-to is affection, but i know that right now, that doesn't help."

I built on that and said " the thing with you initiating affection is it's a double whammy. First I'm not comfortable, then you feel hurt and get mad because I'm not comfortable.  Do you understand? "

She said yes.

Not an hour had passed but she was grasping for my hand, trying to snuggle up to me and kiss me, taking my arm and putting it around her.

I can't understand this, and worse, it worries me that it will make my announcement even more difficult. She can tell herself that I was just acting normal the other day, and she hasn't "done anything ", so how can this be happening?

I don't know what to do at all.

[babyducks]

It's so mind boggling to me.

What is is you don't understand siochain?    What specifically are you having a hard time grasping?

for pwBPD,  the emotion of the moment feels like it is totally accurate, 100% correct and like it will last forever.   Until it doesn't.    and then the next emotion is totally accurate, 100% correct and going to last forever.

She said " I don't want to start a big conversation, but I wanted to apologize for last night.  I thought about some of the things I said and I realized that even then, I had been FOGging.".

Yes, I taught her that acronym.

Why?   What's your thinking with this?    Are you hoping to heal her?   Change her thinking?   Cure her?

I can't understand this, and worse, it worries me that it will make my announcement even more difficult. She can tell herself that I was just acting normal the other day, and she hasn't "done anything ", so how can this be happening?

You appear to be overly identified with her thinking.     You appear so identified with her, trying to figure out what she might tell herself or what she could do,... that you can't identify what you are going to think or do.

I don't know what to do at all.

Can you say more about what is keeping you stuck in this dilemma?   

[siochain]

Well I guess what I don't understand is how she can proactively bring something up, accurately assess it, and then do the exact opposite is half hour later.

How she can seemingly understand and then de-understand back to back.

Yes, I know her mind works differently but it's still hard to grasp, and it frightens me.

[babyducks]

That's why the phrase feelings equal facts is used over and over again.

Think of it this way.   Logically you know that eating a bunch of donuts and washing them down with a soda is a poor choice.    Its not healthy.    Way too much sugar.

But one day you see your favorite donuts.   A big box of them.    And the emotion of the moment says dang I really want them.   And you grab some.    The emotion of the moment overwhelmed the logical brain.

I'm sure you've experienced something like that.

[siochain]

I just responded to her happy well wishing texts with :

Something concerned me last night. You brought up and said yourself that you get frustrated when you see me stressed because you feel helpless, and that your go-to is affection, but that you know that makes it worse.

Then you proceeded to be affectionate right afterwards, reaching for my hand, taking my arm and putting it around yourself, trying to snuggle up to me.

She just said " wow ok enjoy your day".

Me: do you understand why that concerned me?
Her: Yes

I know, I know. She understands this second, till she doesn't understand 10 minutes from now and j shouldn't bother anymore.

I guess part of me still believes that if I lay all of this groundwork she'll somehow understand and it will make leaving easier.

[siochain]

Yes, but I'd be aware as I washed down the donuts


With this, awareness shifts by the minute

[babyducks]

Yes, but I'd be aware as I washed down the donuts


With this, awareness shifts by the minute

That's because you don't have a mental illness that makes processing information difficult.

[siochain]

So should I stop trying to communicate these things to her?

It doesn't seem right to go through motions and suddenly leave and make the call.

But since she can't process it anyway...

Ooof

If when she reached for my hand I just said NO! and pulled back, I'd be in for a night even with my new non-engagement in circular conversations. Screaming and sobbing isn't something I can block out and get to work the next day.

[babyducks]

She just said " wow ok enjoy your day".

I know, I know. She understands this second, till she doesn't understand 10 minutes from now and j shouldn't bother anymore.

I don't blame her for saying wow, okay,  enjoy your day.  I probably would have said something similar.

And to be very clear,    I am not suggesting you "not bother any more".   I am pretty sure what has been suggested is that you put your efforts into construction conversion not destructive discussions.

[siochain]

Ducks,
You're right.  I am overly identified with her thinking.  And I think the reason is that she scared  ne.

I've never been scared in a relationship before.  I'm not usually a pushover in life or in relationships, but for some reason, after all of the scary stuff, I dont recognize myself anymore when it comes to her.

I think you're right about it triggering something from my past. She reminds me of my father, who I'm almost certain had either NPD or BPD although undiagnosed despite decades of lame therapy .

He scared me so much as a kid, and even as an adult I could not communicate with him. Feelings equaled facts to him just like they do here.

I'm shaking just writing this. I've arranged a safe exit. I've made difficult phone calls and even face to face meetings before.  I've been through things that most people haven't and got passed them. (Really scary things most people would only see in films) and was alright after.

But with her, I'm paralyzed with fear.

[babyducks]

So should I stop trying to communicate these things to her?

It doesn't seem right to go through motions and suddenly leave and make the call.

But since she can't process it anyway...

I said difficulties in processing.    Not impossible.

This website has tons of lessons about communication.  

Communication with a pwBPD requires grade A skills.   Especially around relationship topics.   Validation.    SET.   DEARMAN.   things like that.

[babyducks]

Thanks for telling us about your father.   I can really see how that would have a strong impact.    It makes sense.

Can you name the fear that is paralyzing you?  Is it fear of violence?   Fear of failure?   Fear of vulnerability?   Something else entirely?

[siochain]

Fear of her reaction and its unpredictability

[siochain]

I would make the call this very moment if I felt sure I'd just be in my safe place and never hear from or about her again.

It's the unpredictability that's making it so hard to work up the nerve.  I have no idea how she'll respond.

She's never been physically violent with me nor threatened to. She's repeatedly told me that if I left her I'd simply never hear from her again " but dont come looking for me when you need someone to talk to"..(the irony).

I hope so much that at least those self-assessment are true, but I also know she has no idea herself how she'd respond.

I've tried piecing together how she responded last time she was divorced, and there doesn't seem to have been any drama; just solitary silent depression on her part for a while.

[babyducks]

Here's what I see, tell me if I have it wrong.

With your father you were a child,   dependent upon him for nurturing, care giving,   emotional and physical substance.   When he had a bad day and lashed out it felt inherently dangerous.

It feels the same way now with your wife.   When she lashes out it feels like you are the same powerless kid who has no options or choices.

It very much feels that way.   Feels that way quite strongly from what you write.    Except you aren't that little boy anymore.   You do have choices and options.    If you can convince yourself that they actually do exist.

[siochain]

Ducks,
Yes, exactly.

[babyducks]

Really great that you can identify that.    Amazing work.   Very good job.

There's ways to explore this and maybe see if you can get more comfortable.   If you are up for it.

Ever hear of something called an emotional flashback?  They are kind of like a PTSD flashback but not quite the same.   Let's say that as a young kid you had surgery,   maybe your tonsils were removed and now as an adult you feel vaguely uncomfortable under bright steel lights.   In your head you know there's nothing wrong with those lights but in your emotions bright round steel lights equal yucky stuff,  so unconsciously you want to move away from them.

How's that explanation?

[siochain]

I think it's spot on.

I'm actually sitting in my secret safe space right now. I got the keys and she doesn't know about it.

I'm thinking maybe on Sunday to come here, make the call and simply say:

I can't keep doing this. Keeping us both in this limbo is unfair and hurtful to both of us. I'm sorry but it's over.

Then, whatever she says, keep repeating " I'm sorry it's over.

I understand.  I'm sorry.  It's over.

If she starts threatening, say :no more threats. I'm sorry it's over.

Whatever she tries, I'm sorry its over.

[siochain]

Without but. Old habit.

[formflier]

I would make the call this very moment if I felt sure I'd just be in my safe place and never hear from or about her again.

I'm wondering if it might be wise to set aside "the talk" or "the call" for a week or so.  It seems like you are looking at some very big emotional connections/issues.

Probably best to focus on those...see where there is to see, feel what there is to feel...without worrying about when you are going to make big decisions/announcements in your relationship.

What do you think?

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

Repeating the same thing over is one of the skills recommended when dealing with verbal abuse and emotional manipulation.

At some point you will need to end the call if she won't.  

EDIT to add: Leaving is a different process for each of us.

For me, the more awareness and commitment I felt about leaving, the harder it was to remain. It started to get more dangerous. 

My ex could sense a shift and it kicked his more controlling behaviors into high gear.

siochain, it comes down to what feels right for you.

[babyducks]

Let's try and stay in the moment for now.   Let's stay in the now.   Right now you are safe.   Right now in this instant you are powerful.    Right now you are taking care of yourself and doing what is necessary.

I want you to stand up.    Really.    Stand up as tall as you can and stretch your arms as wide as you can.   Reach for the ceiling.    Really stretch.    Spread out your feet and prove to your body that you are balanced.

That's a technique for quieting an emotional flash back.   Reorient your self in your adult body.  

I would suggest calming the flash back is the place to focus today.   Okay?

[babyducks]

I think I am with FF on this.   You are being driven to create a sense of safety.   We can help with that.   What would be ideal is for you to be able to generate sensations of safety that is separate from her and what she may or may not do.

Creating safety and comfort will make it easier to stay with an appropriate message with her.

[siochain]

Thank you all.

I get what you're saying, but I don't want it to linger more than it has to. I think the more it lingers, the more can go wrong.  Plus she keeps pushing for affection and intimacy, reaching for my hand and I want to get away. If I give in it sends the wrong message.  If I don't, I'm in for hearing her go on and on about how I'm affecting her mental health by withholding love.

So I really just want to get this done already.

I have found a therapist who knows about bpd and offered to take me on pro bono.

I'll be alright.  I dont want to keep going through this uncertainty for another 2 weeks.

[siochain]

I did the standing exercise just now. Thank you

[livednlearned]

Sending you positive thoughts, siochain.

Whether you stay or go, I'll be thinking about you.

You have friends pulling for you 

[siochain]

Thank you livednlearned, and everyone else for taking the time to reply and advise me.

I'm sitting alone in the dark right now, after doing my best to have a nice day and give my mind a rest from it all.

I so much want this all to be behind me. I keep feeling scared when I think about just going to the safe place and making the call.

[babyducks]

I so much want this all to be behind me. I keep feeling scared when I think about just going to the safe place and making the call.

hello siochain,

yesterday we talked a little about emotional flashbacks.    I'd like to return to that for just a while if its okay with you?    Emotional flashbacks are a tough topic and you already have a lot on your plate.     

First its perfectly okay to have flashbacks.    many of us here have them.    I do.   I learned coping techniques here and through other resources.    they really help.

Here are the symptoms of an emotional flashback:
Feeling overwhelmed
Nervousness
Dissociation or “under water” feeling
Anger
Emotional detachment
Avoidance of activities, people or places
Physical tremors
Racing heart
Muscle tension
Sweating
Stomach upset
Fear of abandonment or rejection

recognize any of them?      Pete Walker who is a recognized expert on emotional flashbacks said this:

“Emotional flashbacks are sudden and often prolonged regressions to the overwhelming feeling-states of being an abused/abandoned child. These feelings states can include overwhelming fear, shame, alienation, rage, grief, and depression. They also include unnecessary triggering of our fight/flight instincts.”

This fear you are describing about making the call is pretty intense.    It sounds pretty overwhelming to me and I am just hearing about it through the internet. 

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=315252.0

This link will help you manage the flashback if you are having one.   I am suggesting you think about ways to manage the fear regardless if you make the call, when you make the call, how you make the call or where you make the call.   You see I am considering your sensations as separate and distinctly different from what you have going with your wife.    Oh yes they are related to be sure.   what I am hearing is that you have triggered into an overwhelming state of fear AND you have a dysfunctional relationship with your wife.   both are pretty huge things to be dealing with on their own.    put them together and yikes.

I'm going to stop here and let you absorb some of this.    Let me know what you think.

'ducks

[formflier]

I'll add a brief thought...

In my life, when I've had a choice between "being reflective" and making a relationship choice...and I've chosen to make the relationship choice first and "reflect later"...well..."almost always" I've regretted the order that I did things.

Sure...maybe I was able to use tools and cleanup the mess I contributed to with the relationship choice...yet I still regretted not taking the time to sit with my feelings and my thought (especially uncomfortable ones).

 

Please...please don't experience this as criticism.  This is someone that cares that is encouraging you to "spend" your limited emotional energy on yourself FIRST, then figure out how to communicate relationship decisions later.

Be kind to yourself...take the time.

Best,

FF

[siochain]

Ducks and FF,

Thank you both.


I'm sure you're both right; I am being triggered and I will be better off getting myself into the right state before pulling the plug.


My issue is that she's so pushy that each day that passes with her is a challenge.  She can't understand even pulling back a bit or giving me space. Just push push push.

The more she does that, the more I just want to rush running away.


I dont want to be physical with her in any way, not even hand holding. She pushes nonstop for affection, and it's either fine give her the hug or hold her hand or deal with another episode.

I don't want to make it worse by sending mixed messages, don't want to have to hear her ranting at me about how I'm causing her harm by not being affectionate.  I just avoid her as much as possible now.

Still I can't go too long without it becoming a conflict, even with my newly learned non-engagement.

It also bothers me to know I'll always be the bad guy no matter what. Once the smoke clears and I'm really gone, I'll definitely  be this emotionally abusive husband who put her through a nightmare by marrying her and then withdrawing, withholding affection, and causing her all of this misery.

I'm sure that once she gets done with this sob story, even her new T will be completely onboard with it, telling her how much she's suffered and endured with such a harmful man.

I'll be the evil, selfish man who didn't care, who saw her fading away due to his own choices, to the point of hospitalization, and then wouldn't even comfort her with a hug. "All I wanted was a hug/kiss/ intimacy with my husband and it was this big problem ".

I know it shouldn't  matter etc etc etc but I feel bad knowing this.

Would it be horrible to just get to my safe place and send a text? Chicken out but not have to hear her response and then do the work alone and with a T? I can't take this wondering limbo anymore and want it to be over.