BPDFamily.com

Hi everybody,
I was on here a couple years ago and received tons of support after my W with uBPD tried to kill herself. In May it will be 2 years since that happened (we’ve been together almost 7). Things got worse that year, with her abuse escalating and me planning my escape. I wrote her an email detailing all the reasons why the marriage was over (she spit in my face, shoved me multiple times, degraded me, called me a failure, just to name a few). The week she threw a bucket that hit me in the face, then taunted, “What, are you going to cry now?” was when I decided to leave. I waited for a day when I’d be alone in the morning and packed up as much of my important stuff as possible in my Jeep. Than I went to my parents’ determined not to return. I was gone for 5 days over Valentine’s Day 2020. When I told her I wasn’t coming back, she was angry and hateful for 3 days, then turned to showing me sadness, prayerfulness, remorse, etc. She even had my oldest stepson beg me to come home. Finally, she showed up at my parents’ house herself and appealed to me. I tried to say let’s make this a trial separation since we both need a break from all the fighting, and I’ll come back in 3 months, then 2 weeks, then 2 days. She wouldn’t accept less than me coming home the same night (or else, she said, I’d never come back, a correct assumption). She said and did all the right things, and I came home. She made good on the 7 sessions with a couples therapist, even though afterwards she said how stupid and pointless it was. Things got better, then worse again, then better, then worse. Our oldest son again was the source of much stress and triangulation. Her abuse continued, one notable time she slapped me so hard it left me with a cut lip, but I still didn’t leave. Ss is 18 now and currently in a behavioral health hospital insisting she is abusive. He calls me fake because sometimes i agree with him, catch hell from her, then tell him he has to just deal with it until he can live on his own (he’s been abusive back to her and also terrorizes his little brother). I want to leave again but I’m not sure I won’t be able to cave and come back again. When she plays me songs that are special to us, I feel pulled back. When she cries, I crumple. I love her and don’t want her to be alone. She just doesn’t know how and/or doesn’t want to learn how not to rage. I’ve been called every name in the book, and she threatens me with all kinds of things, but I don’t care about any smear campaign, I just want to beat the FOG (just looked that one up, makes so much sense). She says that her yelling is like me crying - she’s sad, hurt, desperate, and needs empathy and support. I have tried and tried to listen to her during these times and respond to the feelings, not the words, but I rarely succeed. I don’t have money for my own place, plus I don’t want to go NC in case the kids need me (18 and 11). I know they’re not my kids but I love them too and won’t leave any of them stranded. I know I have a much better chance of sticking to my guns if I actually file for divorce and leave the house. But there are so many things to separate that I get quite overwhelmed (our house, my stuff, they’re on my health insurance, they’re on my cell phone plan, etc.). It also doesn’t help that my dad is of the mind that you stay in a marriage no matter what (my mother’s bipolar and they’ve been together 61 years). I plan to read the book SPLITTING. Thank you in advance for your support and advice.
-Warriorprincess

Hi Warriorprincess, I remember you.  :hug:

I'm so deeply, deeply sorry you were treated that way. To have someone spit in your face, throw a bucket at you, and speak to you like that is horrible and you deserve so much better.

It's hard to navigate these relationships when we have familiar stories deep in our bones from childhood.

From the sounds of it, the one boundary that changed her behavior was you walking out the door (and meaning it, at least in the moment).

That changed things for a while and now, because the boundary was breached, it's back to status quo. Does that sound about right?

One of the tough things in these relationships is that there's often an underlying dynamic of win-lose, or one-up/one-down. She feels good when she's one-up because being one-down is intolerable. If win-lose isn't possible, then lose-lose will have to do. Forget about win-win, she doesn't have enough trust to believe in it's existence.  

If we're accustomed to being in a one-down position (family of origin stuff), we slide right into that bottom position and chafe against it, not certain whether we even deserve a win-win (while wanting it nonetheless).

She, however, did change her behavior when you were firm in your convictions. She recognized you felt strength and that threw her.

Then when you came back things slid back into place.

Was that the first time she threw something at you or spat in your face?

Had you attempted to leave before?

Glad you are back for support from friends here.

welcome back Warriorprincess,


staying or leaving is an intensely personal decision with many unique individual factors weighing in.   there are often good reasons to stay - shared history, children, large emotional investment.   there are often good reasons to leave - verbal violence, threats,  emotional abuse, sometimes physical abuse, addiction and infidelities.     

there is a lot to unpack and it's going to take some real work to make a decision that you feel comfortable with and that you can stick too.    by work I mean, coming here and writing out your thoughts and working through the feed back.   often the very action of organizing your thoughts well enough to write them out helps add clarity to what going on.     working with a trained professional - therapist, a member of the clergy, some one who isn't intimately involved in your day to day life helps too.     do you have a therapist of your own?    can you consider adding one to your support team?

members here on this board can't and shouldn't come right out and say leave or stay because it is such an intensely personal decision.   what we can help with is sharing our experiences,   offering tips on distress tolerance,...   whether you stay or go is there any doubt there is going to be distress?   and providing education about the complexities of staying or breaking up with a person who has the traits of a mental illness.    the more you post, the more you read, the better.



this is good information to have because now you know how she handles emotional pain, or what her 'distress tolerance' approach is.    when she is in pain she attempts to get the people around her to change.    this is pretty normal with pwBPD.   its well recognized that pwBPD see their emotions as being caused by others or by events outside themselves, with no belief that they have any sort of control over their emotions.    and that pwBPD believe that the only way to change how they feel is to get other people or events to change.



Physical violence is never okay Warriorprincess.   Hitting is never okay.    Are you safe now?    can I ask what kind of boundaries did you put around hitting?


I'm very sorry to hear that.    That must be hard.    and adding more stress to you and your relationship.    when is he scheduled to come home?   how do you think you can best support him moving forward?


what I hear you saying is that when she puts pressure on you to behave in certain ways,  or change what you feel so that she feels better you have a hard time resisting.   I can understand that.     when she pushes on you to act a certain way or say a certain thing, how do you respond now?    I am wondering how resilient you are outside pressure and how you can grow those resilience skills.



I'm going to suggest you stop trying and trying to listen to her during a dysregulation.    How do you feel about that?     The time to listen to her express her feelings is when she is doing it productively not yelling and threatening.

I'm sure that's a lot to process.    what questions do you have ?

'ducks

Hi @livednlearned. Thank you for remembering me. :hug:
You nailed the pattern, what happens when I leave, how things slide back into place, and the one-up/one-down situations. I admit that when I leave in my car, even for 1-2 hours, I feel strong when she texts me, “Come home. You are loved here.” A couple of times she came out to follow me in her car. The strong feeling doesn’t last long though, because she will say something that makes me want to vomit- like “You have nowhere else to go.” Or “You always leave when things get hard. You’re a quitter.”
Yes, that was the first time she spit in my face, and the first time she threw something at me. She’s shoved me 3-4 times, but I’ve gotten upset enough times and yelled at her to hit me so I could call the police that she’s more careful about touching me I think.
I hadn’t made a real attempt to leave before last year around this time, but I really think I need to. I don’t want to live the rest of my life like this.
Thank you for your kindness and compassion. I absolutely teared up.

Hi @babyducks, thank you for your detailed response!
I really appreciate you encouraging me to get on here often and talk through all the things I need to do to prepare to leave. I definitely need to be more prepared than I was last year. I do have a therapist who really understands me and does not approve of the abuse going on in my relationship. We talk about how I can get strong enough to know I won’t be tempted to return after I leave. There is a part of me that thinks I deserve this. You’re so right that the way she responded when I left the first time gives me a lot of information. I think I still need to go to my parents’ house when I leave because they need help. My mom has worsening dementia and we’re literally getting ready to start interviewing caregivers to come in to help care and stimulate her. I want to be that person! I just have to be very strict about not letting WwBPD in the house.

My intellectual mind knows it’s never OK to hit someone, spit in their face, shove them, try to make them fall, throw things at them, etc. Yet when she slapped me, I almost felt better in a way. Like my primitive brain knew my place and role- life was less confusing. My boundaries are terrible. Every time I’ve set them, I have accepted what i said i would not. I’ve let things happen that mortify me. When I got to my parents’ last year, I felt safe for the first time in a long time. I think that’s why I’m always uncomfortable in this home- because I don’t really feel safe. However I also feel confident that if things escalate even further that I will fight back. I worry that I could hit her- sometimes I want to. I know this is beyond unacceptable. My therapist has made me promise if things are starting to get out of control that I call the police. The police have already come multiple times because of SS18. I just feel like I’m living a nightmare.

SS18 doesn’t have a discharge date from the hospital yet. He is getting evaluated to see if he qualifies for disability services. He called tonight and told me I’m spineless because I won’t tell the hospital that his mom abuses him. My W says to me that he has abused HER and I’ve done nothing to stop it. Both of them forget how many times I’ve stood between them, or broke them up when they had their hands on each other, or chased after SS when he ran away, or tried to institute rules and consequences at home that we’d all know and follow, or worked from home so SS11 was safe from SS18. Now we’ve all been home for almost a year and I’m pretty sure I don’t want to be here when SS18 is released from the hospital. But I’m helping coach SS11’s basketball team, so I need to stay until that is over. Or will there always be something keeping me here? I’m afraid that I’ll never leave. I feel so trapped.

I definitely need to grow my resilience skills, but I’m not sure how. Right now if/when she wants me to change my behavior I either comply or yell back at her. I feel like I’ve tried calm, assertive alternatives and they n.e.v.e.r  w.o.r.k! I’ve been successful ignoring her BPD rages some of the time. The sooner I stop responding to her raging, the quicker it will be over. But making any long-term changes has not stuck at all. I actually like your suggestion of not trying to listen to her when she is dysregulating. I have tried to listen for almost a year, and not once has it been successful. I tried to listen again tonight because it hurt me when she said I “let” SS abuse her. That I have never supported her with him. That when I tell her I wish she wouldn’t yell so much, she hears me saying all his problems are her fault. I repeated over and over that it’s not her fault, that he has challenges but her yelling doesn’t help. And she texted me all kinds of articles that say tough love works but I say back that she’s authoritarian, not practicing “tough love” at all. I think maybe I just have to accept that I’ll always feel bad about not being able to fix her. She says I’m not there for her, but she won’t LET ME, either. Because in her mind, being there for her means telling her she’s right and everyone else is wrong. Like my friend told me tonight, she’s like a cult leader who demands total devotion and loyalty. That is heady stuff and makes me feel a bit crazy.
I’m so grateful for this community, and for your thoughtful responses. One question I have is can I really separate myself from this unhealthy situation when I am so unhealthy myself? If I feel like I deserve mistreatment because I’m indecisive and unsure of myself and afraid and unloved and a perpetual victim, then how will I ever get out?
Thanks for listening, Warriorprincess

hello Warriorprincess


What I have observed after reading and writing many posts is that people who make the transition to a healthy place usually do so with lots of external support.    We talk here about at least four sources of support.   Friends.    Not necessarily friends who you discuss relationship stuff with but Friends who can take you out of yourself and help focus on other things.   Friends who you go bowling with.   Friends who you exercise with.   Friends who you engage in social activities with.  Family.   And if your Father doesn't get it... don't use him as a support.   Professionals.   Therapists.    Legal experts.    Clergy if you have a faith tradition.  Domestic Violence experts   Social organizations.   This site.   Social clubs that speak to other interests.    Be deliberate about cultivating as many of them as possible



hmmmm.   if you are leaving and are ending the relationship why would you have contact with your wife?   do you think it is possible to be friends after what this relationship has gone through?



oh my Warriorprincess.    Oh my.    Once the boundary of No Physical Violence has been crossed it becomes easier for the violence to happen again.   Have you ever contacted a domestic violence hotline or online source?


What did you actually see happen?   Do you think its okay for them to 'have their hands on each other'?    Who is the responsible party for being the adult mature parent in the room?


What is more important?    Your safety, the families safety?    or basketball?   Serious question.


Projection and Blame Shifting are hallmark traits of this disorder.   and yes, they do reflect disordered thinking.    a distorted and disordered reality.   How good are you at recognizing when she is entering a distorted reality and you are participating in it?


How does that help?    Does that get you the results you are hoping for or does it add to the confusion and conflict going on?  When you were here before did you read the lessons about communication and ending the cycle of conflict?   


Its not your job to fix her.    and the more you attempt to take responsibility over her the worse she will get.   the more she will blame you for 'not doing it right'


Yes.    Yes you can.   It requires you make a plan.   start small.    follow the plan.   work at it.    keep putting one foot in front of the other.   Yes you can.

'ducks

Hell yes.


You start by being kind to yourself.

It's going to hurt.

All the abuse and trauma I went through was nothing compared to receiving unconditional love from a friend.

It can feel like annihilation to accept the truth that you are lovable and worthy.

It's just as easy to think, "WP took care of herself and left to keep herself safe" as it is to say "WP couldn't cut it on her own."

Changing the script felt to me like I was having a nervous breakdown. An old-school psychiatrist I saw said to me, I think you're having a nervous breakthrough.  :)

That simple word changed everything. I went from thinking I was falling apart to thinking I was onto something.

Does your therapist do somatic experiencing (https://traumahealing.org/)?

Sometimes (strictly) talk therapy misses the mind-body connection. Learning to feel and name what you're feeling can unearth a lot of wisdom that gets ignored when you have decades of trauma.

Dear Warriorprincess, I feel for you and what you are going through! Your post triggered an emotional flashback for me, I remembered what it felt like at 16, trying to decide whether to leave home or not. I knew it was make or break for me, did not know the word "individuation", but understood that staying was going to make me grow more and more like my uNBPD mom. But I didn't want to leave my younger sibling, then 11. I did not know the term "parental child" either, still, I had cared for them since birth, barely able to wipe my own nose, I still devoted myself to protecting them from the worst of the rages. So I understand where you are coming from and what is holding you back. I spare a thought for the youngster that I was then, being forced to make decisions far beyond my emotional age or maturity. It is now over four decades ago but the pain is still fresh.

It worked out well, in the end I made the decision to leave because I knew if I stayed "I" would not survive. It set a pattern for the rest of my life, running has saved me every time and now for the first time in my life I am strong enough to stop running and able to stay with the hard stuff and deal with it.  If I had not made that decision then I would not be here to tell   the tale today. I would be heterosexually married to a nice Dr with 2.4 children and dead in my soul, in all probability channeling my mom and passing it on to the next generation.  Ugh...

As soon as I was stable enough at 21 I brought my sibling out to live with me and though we have had many ups and downs - it took them years to forgive me the abandonment and indeed life during those years was sheer undiluted hell (I only saw them once during the five years after my departure) - we made up for lost time in the intervening decades and are both fine-ish with a lovely next generation to brighten our lives. One of the ten grandchildren of my mothers' is diagnosed BPD and maybe two of the older ones are subclinical. The diagnosed one is doing just fine with therapy and the youngest batch all great, happy children.  It is a happy ending.

If you are legally married you would probably be able to get part-time custody/visitations rights for the 11-year old. That means he will have access to a peaceful stable home at least part-time and would be spared the sight of you being abused. There is no reason why you should have to stop being his coach. It is really important at his age that he learns not to normalize the abuse, or he may think there is no other way to live because he has never seen it modeled. He may even, like his older brother, choose to be the abuser instead of the abused. Most of all,  if you love yourself enough to leave you would probably have something to give instead of being drained by trying to stand between two rages. That triangulation does you no good and may well destroy you in the end. And who will be there for your youngest then?

Livednlearned gives good advice. Maybe a small step to start the journey towards healing would be to take a walk every day. Even 30 minutes for yourself, free endorphins and a chance not to think but just enjoy being back in your body. How does that sound?

You will make it through this. We are here for you.
 :hug:
Khib

Dear @babyducks,
Thank you for all the great advice and encouragement in your post. I think the support that I’m lacking is a program or group for DV survivors. A friend of mine attended such a support group for a year before she left her abusive husband one year ago. Since I vacillate so much between hating the abuse and thinking I deserve it, I need to be reminded often that this is not normal. Even the idea that I might not be able to turn my wife away at the door makes me feel very concerned. I definitely don’t think if my wife and I get divorced that we could be friends afterwards; it’s the period before the divorce that I worry about since she will try to talk me into returning. You are right to question so many things I said in my last post. In some ways I have been very hard on myself and in other ways not hard enough. The question of “Who is the responsible, mature adult in the room?” is very upsetting. So many things I said I would never accept or watch happen I’ve “accepted” and watched happen. DCFS has been to our house in the past twice for alleged abuse by SS18 (when he was 13, 14) and nothing that happened was ever enough to substantiate the claim. The worker told the kids that parents are allowed to discipline, yell at, and punish their children, even slap them or spank them. Since my wife insisted that her methods were and are simply “tough love” and she grew up with yelling for discipline, it was fine and necessary to produce hard-working, productive children. It’s hard to have much say in parenting when your a stepparent, especially since the kids’ dad is still in the picture (visitation only). No, I don’t think it’s OK for them to put their hands on each other, but I like to think that I have stopped things from escalating further than a shove or two (sometimes while SS18 is trying to push the door closed on his mom or she’s trying to pull him back from running away). Of course safety is more important than basketball; however as you pointed out, the longer something goes on, the more difficult it is to change. I’ve been here 6 years; what’s 2 more months? I definitely need to get better at recognizing when my wife goes into disordered thinking and behavior and separate myself instead of saying anything over and over. I’m going back to reread articles i read 2 years ago and find new ones. “How to Survive a Break-Up with someone with BPD” was excellent!

@livednlearned, thank you so much. So powerful. Spot on for me. When my friends support me (special friends that I tell everything to), I can barely contain my joy at having someone understand and love me, look out for me, want to protect me. I know it will be worth it, but I have to start slow by being kind to myself. Anything but keeping the peace feels like annihilation. Nervous breakthrough...I like it!

@khibomsis, thank you for sharing part of your story and identifying with me. You are so right - this feels like I must keep protecting my “siblings” since we are all in the line of fire. SS11 has a great relationship with his mom now, but he is just entering puberty and I fear for what’s going to happen when he becomes his own person/a rebellious teenager. I won’t be here to protect him. I would like to provide him another space to go to that is peaceful and he could get away. He does see his dad but there are also problems and chaos in his life, but to a lesser degree. I love the advice to walk everyday for the fresh air and being in my body. During the pandemic I’ve been walking a lot more and it always makes me feel good. I’m up to 3 miles easily when I used to struggle to do one. It’s very cold where I am right now but I could do shorter walks until it warms up. I so appreciate that you and this community are there for me. I can’t express what a relief it is to be on here again! It makes me remember that it’s not necessarily a luxury to be understood.  :hug:
-Warriorprincess

Warriorprincess -

I am sorry if I upset you with my questions.    I sincerely apologize.

I think the idea of finding some type of DV group like your friend did is a really productive idea.   

Hopefully the weather will start to turn soon and we both can back to our long walks outside.

'ducks

Thank you, ‘ducks. It’s OK that some of your questions were upsetting. I really need to hear them and think about them. It’s too easy for me to return to complacency after each storm ends. I don’t want to live in this cycle anymore, but I know that separating - and then divorcing - will be so, so difficult and painful. My book Splitting arrived in the mail. I have to hide it of course and read it after my wifewBPD has gone to sleep. I thought having a hard copy would be better than having a Kindle book though since we share each other’s Kindle books. We share a lot of things. The book is really good so far. I hadn’t understood the process of a personwBPD idealizing and vilifying another person quite as well as I do now. I’ve tried and tried to understand how my wife can say such horrible things to me, attack my character, and make disgusting accusations, and I learned that in those moments, she honestly believes I’m evil. That is something so hard for me to wrap my brain around.

I would love to hear how others finally did it - left for good. Did you tell the personwBPD that you were leaving or did you just go? How long did you prepare beforehand? What would you say were the essential things you planned before you left (the list you provided, @babyducks, was super helpful!)? What did you wish you would’ve done before you left? How is your relationship with the personwBPD now?

Thanks!
Warriorprincess

Ducks, thank you for leading by example! It takes a big person to admit fault, and I hope I can grow into your big sister shoes one day  :)

Warriorprincess, you are welcome! It gives meaning to these life experiences if they can be of help to somebody else.
I totally get your concern with S11. The more so since BPD tends to come on in late puberty or teens, I am not surprised that S18 is acting out. It is a dangerous age, I fostered four boys between 15-25, and you stay  on your knees praying, I tell you. Only that you can't help anybody else until you are OK.  So I am pleased to see you are focusing on your safety.

With me it was easy to get away, we live in separate cities and visit each other. My expwBPD hit me once, not hard (funny how important it is to emphasize that... ). A week later I was out. I had been planning to go for awhile, so I sometimes wonder if it wasn't fear of abandonment that made her react that way. We are working hard at transforming into a friendship, she is in therapy and doing DBT and I want to support that. Had I stayed for things to escalate I doubt we could be friendly.

Marriage is much more complex, before this relationship I was married to an abusive Asperger's, and it took me fully two years to get out of it. What this raises is the need to take measures to improve your daily life as much as you can. Great that you are taking walks! If you can time them so as to coincide with the  beginning of a dysregulation, your wife may self-soothe in your absence. I took lots of walks while staying with my expwBPD. Took myself out for a cup of coffee and a doughnut often, it saved my sanity.

If you want to describe a typical episode, we can help you out with ways to respond that minimize the risk of abuse.
 
Operational security is a must, indeed hide the book, wipe the history off your computer so that she doesn't see that you are visiting this site. Protect your cellphone with a password so she doesn't have access to it. And slowly, with time, try to separate those things you share, as far as you can do so safely. It is a freaking nuisance during a divorce to realize you have no Kindle because it stayed in the marital home. What about things like bank accounts? Credit cards?  

Here is more structured information that can help you: https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/safety-first-dv-1.pdf

How is it going with contacting a DV support group?
We are here for you.
 :hug:

Basically what happened for me is we had an argument.    you know, one of those arguments that go round and round and don't make any sense.    It was over Valentines day.   I didn't get her a gift.    The relationship clearly wasn't working if I couldn't at least get her a gift.   She was trying as hard as she could and she would have to believe that I was trying as hard as I could but it wasn't working.     to which I basically said Okay, you're right.     This isn't working.    I was lucky in that we lived together in the country but I kept a condo in the city.   And I moved back into the condo.     She got upset (of course) and said she was afraid of violence from me so we needed a two week cooling off period.   To which I said Okay, we won't talk for two weeks.    I remember going home to the condo and being so exhausted from the constant circular arguments that I slept for almost 24 straight hours.    and when we finally saw each other after two weeks it was in a public place.    a restaurant.     in a way she ended the relationship.    in a way she opened the door and I walked through it.    whatever she said, rather than argue or try and soothe her or discuss it with her I stayed with very minimal responses.     No huge discussions.     At the same time she was leaving the relationship, my mother was going through her final illness.   My mother died 16 days after my Ex left.     I really made the conscious decision to spend my energy, emotional and physical on my mother.   Not my Ex.   

after she ended the relationship and with the death of my mother I fell apart for a while.   the first year was tough.    I was much more hurt than I had originally thought.   looking back the thing I wish I had been slightly more prepared for was how devastated I was going to feel.    and not worry so much about her but how I was going to take care of myself.

My Ex's behavior after the split was typical BPD.   She seemed to want the relationship to be over but not understand it was.   As if she could still ask me to pay for things that no longer had anything to do with me.    And she exhibited some stalking type behavior.   She showed up everywhere.    And I mean everywhere I went.    Always in tears.     Always telling people how fearful she was of me.    Always with some High Drama thing going on.

Its been 5 years for me,  and I still see her from time to time.   We don't really talk.    And its not really comfortable to be around her.    Its those porous boundaries.   we were pretty enmeshed with each other.  The lack of real closure.
Letting go is tricky with a pwBPD.

Yes the break up was hard but it was for the best.   Its one of the better things I have ever done for myself.    not just the getting out but saying to myself over and over I deserve better.   

hope this helps.
'ducks     

I planned my exit carefully for roughly a year. My main concern was to leave without my son witnessing violence, and to make the transition as seamless as possible to minimize material and psychological discomfort for him. That meant getting my financial ducks in a row.

My ex would lock me out of the house so I got in the habit of being able to function in case I couldn't get into the house and that actually helped move things forward in the planning department. Mostly I wanted to be sure that if my ex ended it, I was ready. He talked about divorce constantly, getting full custody, ruining my career, etc. Sometimes your pwBPD will tell you exactly what you need to focus on  :(

Prior to leaving I got a therapist, someone who held me accountable to myself.

I opened a separate bank account and started to put some of my income into it. I got a separate credit card in my name only, and opened a PO Box of my own in case I needed a private address for lawyers and whatnot. I bought a burner phone mostly for talking to lawyers and therapists. I managed to get my son into therapy so it would be in place before we left. I also rented a storage locker and began to put things in there that I knew I might need if he locked me out for good. I organized nostalgic things and important documents and made copies of everything and stored them there. I looked at apartments and figured out what I could afford, where I would live, whether it would provide some degree of safety after the split. I kept a journal and documented things in a hidden google calendar.    

My ex abused alcohol and prescription pills and engaged in what a DV counselor described as environmental abuse. Meaning, he would throw something next to me but not at me. Or he would slam the door on me while I was walking through it. If I was in the bathroom he would walk by the closed door and bang hard on it for no reason. Or he would keep coming in the bedroom when I was falling asleep and turn on the lights over and over again. He would take a heavy temperpedic pillows and throw it hard at my head. I wouldn't be able to find my purse and then it would appear hours or a day later. I got used to having a second set of everything hidden outside including a key to my car just in case.

Because my ex was dangerous I ran through worst-case scenarios that meant planning for legal backlash.

I consulted with 2 lawyers and figured out how things worked where I live. My ex was a former trial attorney and at the time I believed the threats he made. Talking to a lawyer brought some relief so I understand what protections I had, what was true and not true.

During our marriage I handled all of the finances but as things broke down he wanted full control. I knew if he were to block access to funds it would be harder to leave so I decided to go before that happened, and lined up an apartment. He must have sensed a shift in me, which looking back I think was my confidence? or relief? building as I built a bridge to safety.

I talked to the caring adults in my son's support network, and began to build out my own, including at work.

Looking back, I wish I left earlier  :(

I wish I had started some kind of mindfulness practice or outlet to help ground me. I was strung pretty tight and lost a lot of weight and my thinking wasn't clear. The mind-body therapy work was, in many way, more significant to my healing but I didn't discover it until recently. One of the things that was so hard was making my own decisions and knowing who to trust, and the somatic experiencing work helped me figure out how to listen to my instincts for perhaps the first time in my adult life. I knew that staying wasn't great but I didn't know whether to trust others about leaving so both options seemed scary.

My ex is no longer in my life (this November will be 10 years since we left). The legal abuse numbed me to him altogether. My son doesn't communicate with his dad, a decision he arrived at with the help of his counselor.

I honestly don't know where I got the energy to plan like this given what it was like living with him at the time, and others things going on for me (work, education, raising a child, running a household). My love for my son drove a lot of it. And in a twisted way, I think I've always been drawn to solving impossible problems, like rescuing broken people. This was just a different variation on that same theme, except it was overflowing with dread, more than I had experienced at any given time, and I had experienced a lot growing up. I guess I reached my limit, combined with how much I wanted a better life for my son.

Love for a child can be a powerful motivator if you aren't yet ready to love yourself and let your own worth be the catalyst.

Looking back, I wish I had sought help and disclosed our problems earlier.  It was like living a train wreck in slow motion.  An answer I'll never have is whether seeking help sooner might have avoided some of the stress and expense of a separation and divorce.  Like many Nice Guys and Nice Gals I hid so many of the misbehaviors for too long.

Fortunately we did not have joint credit cards.  When we separated I cancelled her as a cardholder on my account and threw out my cardholder card on her account.

I did open a new bank account, in my name only.  So she was never able to raid substantial sums.  There's a huge backstory.


Very important:  During a marriage it is normal to share and trust if it is to survive and prosper.  But if it is failing or imploding, then it is very different, you have handle things more businesslike.  Don't be torn or swayed by emotions, guilting or demands.  Forget the prior impulses to always be overly fair, overly forthcoming, overly whatever.  No more passive compliance during virtual interrogations.  You always have a right to privacy and confidentiality, but especially so now.  Revealing information or strategies too soon would sabotage you.  It feels terrible but that's the way it is.

What you do continue sharing are the basic parenting matters such as appointments, exchanges, etc.

Be very cautious about demanded apologies and similar comments or promises you may be inclined to make.  Saying "I'm sorry" for all the things your disordered spouse is upset about may get you into legal trouble.  For example, if she insisted you were abusive or similar and she had witnesses or a recording or texts of you admitting it in an apology, she could use that to file allegations against you.  So don't apologize for doing anything that could have legal implications in the future.  However, it's okay with some methods, such as, "I'm sorry you feel that..."  It's highly unlikely you will be held accountable by an officer or judge for hurting someone's feelings.

I wanted to add ... given what you have shared here, it would not be practical to tell her how you're thinking and feeling about a decision like this.

Powerful stories. Important insights. Thank you all for sharing some details regarding how you separated from pwBPD. There are many things I want to respond to...I will do so soon. We’re still trying to plan for SS18’s next steps. He received a new diagnosis on the schizophrenia spectrum to add to his autism spectrum disorder. We are reeling. SS18 has definitely had delusions and paranoia, but he’s intelligent and learned to mask his differences. I feel so much for him. WifewBPD wants him to come home but I don’t think its a good idea at all. Family session tomorrow. I hope the counselor agrees that there must be transitional housing somewhere while he waits for a group home slot to open up. He doesn’t need anymore chaos in his life. Thank you for being there for me. My therapist is looking for DV resources for me. I will break free one day.
 :hug: :love-it: :heart: :hi:
-Warriorprincess

Warriorprincess, I am sorry to hear about SS new diagnosis. I hope the family session goes well,  I agree with you that him moving back home again is likely to be more stressful for everyone.  Take care over the next few days,  your wellbeing matters in this mix

I feel for you so much...I have just left after 5 years...over valentine's day 2021!...I had been planning to go and packed a grab bag but a couple of days ago he became enraged worse than its ever been screaming shouting name calling saying he had no help or support which eventually turned into him chasing round the house hitting me...it was not that hard but it was the hate in his face that scared me the most..the children were in the bath and heard it all...they are only young 3 and 10 ...I had to call the police he barricaded himself upstairs with the children (he wouldn't actually physically hurt them) fortunately I was able to call on his older daughter from his first marriage...she is currently giving us a safe space to be..after this she has now told me about what she experienced growing up and the fact her mom has ptsd after experiencing 30 years of this. I know we don't advise stay or go but for me I will not be returning firstly because I this it will be really bad for my mental health ...I will be showing my self complete disrespect...also because I don't want to put the children in that position...while it was happening my 10 year old told me the 3 year old was saying we need to help mommy...that broke my heart. I also feel I need to be vocal about my boundaries although I have already put up with a lot I shouldn't have this recent explosion has definitely crossed that boundary  It doesn't mean I don't want to help my partner though I will not meet him face to face at the moment  but in text I am chatting with him currently he is very fearful remorseful and ashamed. .saying he needs help...he is very intellegent though and runs rings around councillors. ...I have told him he needs to let go of his anger...I hope i can help him work though this ...time will tell.I feel stronger and able to think straight since I left. ...more able to see what is real and what isn't. .. also feel better for admitting what is happening and talking to  people about it...we have a charity here to help with support both practical like housing and for emotional support it is overwhelming but believe me I have already been through enough cap in my life that I thought I wouldn't survive to know it is possible. .,,I'm still here still breathing! stay strong...keep focused. Can I just also say I also cared for my mom when this relationship stared, she had copd and lived with me. She really struggled and had her own issues this can be extremely challenging and draining in its own right and my partner also contributed to making that situation more explosive too so please get support with being a carer also. So anyway I have no real practical plans in place at the moment but I have a couple of people I have now told for support and outside agency help...it's daunting but self care is the priority everything else comes after

I'm sorry to hear about SS18's diagnosis.   that's a lot to handle.

If you feel up to a suggestion?    Have you thought about dropping in on the Parent Board here?   The parents that regularly post here are a great crew and have some wonderful insights into coping with a child with a mental illness.    I'd recommend it.



How did the family session go?    Can you say more about why you don't think its a good idea that SS18 returns right now?     What do you think the main concern is?   If you had to guess, what do you think is behind your wife wanting your son to return?

Please remember to give yourself little breaks,   little time outs where you can remove yourself from the immediate stress and strain.     Even if it is for only 5 minutes.

'ducks

Hi everyone!
That’s what I love so much about this group. Here’s where we can learn that we matter in the mix, and not feel bad for wanting to matter! SS came home tonight. He’s not talking to me I assume because I wouldn’t back up his claims of abuse. Over the weekend my Wife called him and they talked like nothing happened. This is how they get over all their conflicts. I am way beyond trying to change things. I tried for years, dragged my W to therapy, tried to set up family therapy sessions. I honestly think SS would be best served at a group home where he lives with peers who have similar challenges and they work together to build meaningful lives. He has no friends; if he could find his tribe, I think the sky’s the limit for him. His IQ is above average, but it’s very difficult to thrive in an environment (here with my W) where people don’t understand how to help you through your challenges. That’s why I didn’t want him to come home, and honestly, because my W and I would probably go longer without fighting if he wasn’t here. But the “honeymoon” wouldn’t be forever. W would find something I was failing at and let me know. Like two days ago she yelled at me for sleeping too late (@ducks, I totally get how/why you slept for 24 hours straight after you left!). The family session went fine because we stayed surface. SS agreed to attend a partial hospitalization program (PHP) to help with his anxiety. My W filled out his application for Medicaid to pave the way for disability services. Everything’s calm now but it’s nerve-wracking waiting for the next blow-up. I know you all understand. Oh...And I absolutely get the importance of saying “They hit me...but not hard.” I think it’s because the DV we’ve seen on the small screen (ie, the Burning Bed) is bloody and broken bones and locking in the closet. There’s been very little emphasis on the verbal abuse, shoves, throwing things, terror. I just read a excellent lesbian-written essay that highlights some of these called Never Say I Didn’t Bring You Flowers. Thank you for the Safety First link - it’s helpful!
Thank you for the great advice, ‘ducks. I really appreciate it.
@Nwyfree, Amen! I’m so proud of you for leaving that abuse. Hold on to the feeling that you are stronger and thinking straight now... I remember how I felt when I left around Valentine’s Day 2020 - I felt SAFE. And now that I’m here again with WwBPD I do not feel safe, not one bit. And I have told a lot of people (including my HR Director at work because I was worried last year that she might go there), and still I returned. I am trying to get as strong as you! Keep posting here for support. If you haven’t started your own thread yet, please do so! And use the resources around you. You will be OK! And you are protecting your babies.  :love-it:
@livednlearned, thank you for telling your very inspiring story. That was a lot of planning. You were in survival mode. I relate very much to the environmental abuse. I learned a few years ago that it will only amp my W up to try to find some privacy. One time I locked the door to take a shower and she picked the lock. I felt so vulnerable when she was using the toilet muttering, “No one’s going to lock me out of my own bathroom.” Sometimes I’m so scared that I get in her face and say “Hit me so I can call the police and have you arrested.” That’s a little power I have over her because she doesn’t want to jeopardize having custody of SS11. The other thing I relate to hugely is wanting to rescue broken people. I’m always doing that...Today at my appointment with my therapist I figured out I do that because I want to be loved. All my life I’ve just wanted to be somebody’s #1. I know this makes me vulnerable to pwBPD (I’m sure I’ve been with 2 pwBPD, maybe 3, but this is the first time I’m realizing it).
@ForeverDad, thank you for the tips, especially apologizing too much, as this may come back to bite me in court. Had not thought of that!
Thank you all for being there.  :hug:
-Warriorprincess

hello warriorprincess,

how are you doing today?



This strikes me as the Karpman Drama Triangle.   When you were here before did you do any work with the Karpman Drama Triangle?

For those reading along, the Karpman Drama Triangle is an unhealthy way of relating which has three roles.    The Victim - some one else is responsible, they either cause or need to fix my problems.   The Persecutor - the bully - blames, dominates, and criticizes.   The Rescuer - the fixer, martyr - gains self esteem by helping.

I'm pretty much wired to be a Rescuer and have to be careful and thoughtful about how much 'helping' I am doing and why.   I have to recognize when I am 'helping' because it makes me feel more comfortable and secure,  rather than honestly dealing with what might be difficult realities and unpleasant emotions.

How are things going now that SS has been home for a little while?

'ducks

Hey ‘ducks,
Thank so much for checking in. I was about to take your advice and post on the parents’ board because I’m so frustrated (I still will post there). In my head I was running through people I could call while my W and SS are out, and I couldn’t think of anyone who wouldn’t just encourage me to pack up my stuff and leave TODAY. And maybe I should be ready but I’m not. Getting there. It’s been hard. SS still won’t talk to me in any meaningful way, and my W says it’s me being sensitive and reading into it. We just had a video call with the psychologist so she could explain SS’s diagnosis to him and what it means for his life (he can still go to school, get a job, etc) and she also explained why a group home would be helpful as a stepping stone. Before the call, W was pushy about SS calling around tattoo shops and asking for a custodial job (cleaning, taking out garbage, etc) and SS was insisting he wanted to teach himself tattooing at home. Do you all have a word for when a pwBPD goes on and on for 20+ minutes repeating the same thing over and over, a step down from raging? Her voice was stern and pushy, and she wouldn’t take any feedback or differing opinions. She was dictating the narrative rudely and saying things like “That’s a stupid way of doing things. You don’t know anything. You have to do it this way.” SS was getting frustrated but stood his ground quietly. Then we had the call with the psychologist, and I asked all the questions (about medicine, group home, etc). But still W said I haven’t “helped” at all since SS came home. Then I offered to take SS to his dad’s, SS said OK, but then W asked him “Who do you want to take you?” And he said “Can you (my W)?” W looks at me/says “What?” And I say “Nothing.” I’m mad and sad and frustrated and exasperated.

Yes, I’m aware of the Drama Triangle. I learned previously that W and I alone take turns playing roles in the triangle, and absolutely W, SS and I do also. I am usually the Rescuer, sometimes the Victim, and less often the Bully. I’m actually not sure what I am this time. Can one person play two roles? Because I feel like they’re both bullying me now and I’m the victim. SS is definitely punishing me for my “lack of support” and really for reneging on my statement that I’d move out and have him live with me. My therapist said she knows why I said that - because I want to be loved. W says she wants me to help parent, but then she sabotages my efforts to do so every time. SKids know they better choose her every time or there will be hell to pay. I guess this is typical in relationships with someone with BPD. Then why do I continue to feel like a victim? I guess this is where I’m most comfortable but I don’t feel comfortable, I feel awful. It’s easier to plan my escape when W is bullying me, so perhaps today I will attempt to check some things off my “prepare to leave list.” I’ve read the Victim Trap (great book!) but I still think I haven’t learned how to remove myself from the trap. I’m sure that will take a long time, but is there an acronym for helping with it? In my work with my therapist, I am getting to know the two parts inside me, the one who wants to leave and the one who wants to stay. I’m praying they can get on the same page.

Happy weekend to All.
Warriorprincess

Hey there warriorprincess,

while we wait for others to perhaps chime in with their opinions, I will offer mine.

Margalis Fjelstad's book: Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist, calls this thought instability.    and she describes it like this:

- Intense belief in their own perceptions despite facts to the contrary
- Their interpretation of events is the only truth
- Cannot be persuaded by fact or logic
- Do not see the impact of their own behavior on others
- Deny the perceptions of others

this is about obtaining and keeping control (and power) in the relationship.   if my truth is the only one that is recognized as accurate, then I am in control and have all the power in the relationship.   its a way for me to manufacture certainty and security.     over writing her reality on to everyone else is supposed to make her feel safe.   but because its a maladaptive coping tool it never really works.   reality keeps rearing its ugly head.


Sure, one person can play two roles.   sometimes in the same conversation.   

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle (https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle)

if you look at the diagram in the link, you will notice that the triangle is inverted.   that's because this is all about maintaining that one up position.   I am on the top of the triangle,... you are on the bottom.   its a power struggle.

one of the ways to get off the drama triangle and avoid the victim trap is to Refuse to be Superior or Inferior.   All of these roles requires one person to be superior, right, good, and better than the other person, while the other person has to be inferior, wrong, bad and worse. This one-up/one-down game has to be stopped in order for you to stop having a drama filled relationship.

Fjelstad says you have to be willing to stop playing the superior/inferior game to stay out of drama triangles.

Almost all conflict interactions with a person with Borderline Personality Disorder traits (BPD) or Narcissistic Personality Disorder traits (NPD) are based on who is better than/worse than, right/wrong, deserving of blame/deserving of defense, who gets more/gets less, who does more/does less, etc.

Breaking the cycle of conflict means not buying into who is better/worse,   right/wrong  etc etc etc.

How does that sound?

'ducks

Babyducks, that sounds so deep and profound to me. You made me understand how I got sucked into a triangle drama that continues to haunt me even though we are now broken up.

My personal opinion, much less politically correct than the literature -  is that pwBPD's sense of reality is so flaky at the best of times, there is a sense in which it really doesn't matter what they are saying. I mean, when you are trying to make a relationship work, yes you have to listen through the drama and try and discover what the source of pain really is - and it can bear no relation to what is actually said. But when the situation is abusive, just set your boundaries and stick with them, regardless what they say. It is about your reality and what you can live with - or not. 

‘Ducks and khibomsis, what you both wrote was so incredibly helpful. Makes so much sense. I kept seeing all of it in action this week. It’s been so awful that I kept moving my timeline up. On Monday it was I’m leaving by the end of March, after basketball ends. On Tuesday things tensed even more and I was leaving by the end of this week. This morning got so bad that I was forced to placate and lie, and by the afternoon I was gone. WwPBD could sense something was brewing and today she demanded an answer about what my plan is. I said I needed space, and she said, “No, you don’t. That’s the last thing you need right now...Don’t quit before the breakthrough. Let me help you, blah blah blah.” I told her she was dictating the narrative, and she said, “I’m telling the truth. You just don’t like the truth.” After years of this, I finally was able to think in the moment, “Who is she to tell me what I need?” She left for the office and under the kids’ noses (which were in computers and iPads), I packed up the car and left. She’s already wreaking havoc saying hateful things about me to my family and hers, but the ones I’ve already talked to don’t believe her. I got away for the 2nd time but this time I’m not going back.
I turned off my phone and iPad when I got to my friends’ house where I’m staying for a little while, but apparently she still might know where I am. I’m not worried though because my friends said if she comes over, they will ask her to leave, and if she doesn’t, they’ll call the police. WwBPD emailed my Sis to ask about my “pathology” of always thinking I’m being abused, back from my Bro to my Mom to different partners. She asked Sis “Do you think any of it is true?” One thing I thought WwBPD would never do, and she’s never even threatened, is told my SisIL that I said my Bro abused me and is a child molester. I don’t know if WwBPD thought SIL would become her ally after being told that (ie, that they would join in saying “She’s a liar!”) but SIL was devastated and immediately started worrying about her kids with my Bro.  :cursing: Why would W do this? SIL and kids are innocent bystanders! I can’t believe I was ever with this person. I am so disgusted. Is she just trying to hurt me by hurting them?
I’m stunned and so angry. But at least now I know I won’t cave in.
Thank you for listening,
Warriorprincess

Good.    Its my suggestion that you avoid long drawn out conversations where you ~explain~ what is going on hoping she ~understands~ your point.   that is not typically how this works.     she wants long drawn out conversations because they give provide an opportunity to use maladaptive coping techniques to make herself feel better.    avoid them at all costs.

 create a simple short message, something that you can use under stress and memorize it.    repeat it as necessary as often as you have to.    you want to stay out of high drama situations.     

here is a short simple message:  'It is sad that things came to an end this way.  I can't discuss this any further.   I am going to take space for things to calm down.'

even that seems too long and wordy to me.   remember every word is an opening,  every sentence an opportunity for her to use against you.   The more you JADE the more she has to work with.  My P used to say "Less is More", meaning the less I said the more chance I had of avoiding conflict.


How is it you know so much about what your W said?  Why even engage in this conversation?   Does this look like another Drama Triangle to you?   Who is the Victim?   Who is the Persecutor?   Who is being pulled to Rescue?

Think about your simple short message:   'SIL,  wife and I are in the middle of a messy split.   there is a lot of misinformation flying around right now.    I appreciate your concern but I am really not able to discuss it more than to say this is not true".      And get off the drama triangle.

'ducks

It's been a while Warriorprincess,    how are things going?

Hi ‘ducks, I’m sad tonight. The questions running through my head are, why couldn’t she love me enough to want to change? Did she stop loving me? What’s going to happen with SS18? When will I cuddle my dog again?

I know I did the right thing, and I’m not going back. I can’t believe I stayed so long. I talked to SIL and I think things are better on that front. My Sis has turned out to be a great support. WwBPD was angry for 3 days, sent me legal threats, accused me of things, but today turned it around. She said she wants a smooth divorce but just needs some time to sort things out before she moves to a condo with the kids. I’m wondering when the other shoe is going to drop. SS18 has an appointment with a new psychiatrist tomorrow and I don’t get to attend. :-( I don’t have a pet to cuddle...The family has 2 dogs, neither of which is mine alone, but everyone acknowledges that one dog clearly loves me best. I’m waiting until this is not so fresh to ask if I can have him.

Meanwhile, I’m alone for the first time in a loong time. Typically I leave a relationship when I have someone new lined up. This time I don’t want to get into another relationship for a veerryy long time, if ever. My plan is to take this time to get to know myself, study my patterns, try to heal my parts that are in pain, grieve the many losses I’ve had, and even “date” myself. But right now I just want to cry for a very long time. I’m not in my home, I don’t have all my things, I don’t know how the boys are, I don’t know if my dog is missing me and wondering why I abandoned him, and I’ve lost my beautiful W who loved me so much in the beginning.

Warriorprincess

Sounds awful and very familiar. You are doing the right thing. It's easier said than done but for me mindfulness mediation helps so much. and also talking to my sister. Good luck and stay strong!

Dear Warriorprincess, I am so happy that you continue to be safe. Be patient with your tears, you will feel better afterwards.
I am so sorry about the situation with your brother! It sounds as if you are working through it, but casts your exes behaviour in having that conversation with your SIL into stark relief.
Am totally with mrlala on the importance of mindfulness meditation. We all need it in the middle of CoVID, and then still with BPD in our lives...
Yes, please stand firm in your resolution. It was my pattern of jumping from relationship to relationship that got me into one with a pwBPD. I am happy for what we had but am girding my loins with sackcloth and ashes. Nobody is having any fun around here until I've resolved my patterns  lol

Thank you so much, mrlala. I am meditating every night, and it does help. I have to work on my morning routine since I usually wake up sad. But I've been very productive this week, talking to lawyers and advocates, gathering information, dividing the cell phone accounts. I'm also leaning heavily on my friends and sister. They are my "SQUAD."  *) :wee:
Yes, khibomsis, I agree I will not be having any fun until I've resolved my patterns! I am so sick of feeling this way! The highs and lows are not worth it - I want a calm, steady life. I have friends who love and accept me for who I am. I am trying to be patient with my tears. I am so grateful for all your support!
 :love-it: :hi: :hug:

Warriorprincess, well done! Indeed, some mornings it is a victory just to get out of bed, I am so happy you are productive. Great that your support network is coming through for you. :)
Yup, I am too scared to date until I sorted out my co-dependency issues. The more it hurts the more I tell myself to learn the lessons so that I never again am in this position. I am stronger than my patterns - that is my mantra these days.
I am grateful for your presence too.  Being heartbroken is much easier with a peer support group.
 :hug: