Realized yesterday that I sound like an abused wife...

[nevaeh]

I saw a lawyer yesterday for a consultation.  Not sure yet if I liked her and will use her but during the conversation it went quickly to domestic violence, temper, protective orders, etc.  

Not realizing I was doing it, I was "excusing" my husband's behavior (he pushed me down once *but he was mad at me; he threw something at the wall a couple of weeks ago, *but he was mad at me for calling him out on an argument he had just had with our son and was swearing and yelling at him; he hasn't done anything "worse" than pushing me down; he does throw things when he gets really angry *but he has never thrown anything AT me; he "only" goes through these rages maybe once every 3 months).

Every time I said something the lawyer called me on it... .saying that she has seen it before, countless times, that the (abused) wife makes excuses for the husband, doesn't want to get him in trouble (I specifically said I don't want to get H in trouble with the law, selfishly because I don't want him to lose his job as that could affect child support after our split).  She caught me off guard a bit as I didn't realize how much I actually do excuse his behavior.  It was unsettling to me, which I guess is good.

We talked mainly about whether I should/could get a TPO to get him out of the house when I tell him I want a divorce.  She thinks I could get one based on what I have told her.

Anyway... .I just found it unsettling how much I realized I sound like the "typical" battered wife, even though I'm not physically battered.  I have been fighting an emotional war for years.  

[Surnia]

Hi nevaeh

What a important realization! A hard one too. You are so honest with yourself. 

See things or persons like they really are - many of us have had this moment. 

How do you feel about the near future now with this insight?

[froggy]

Hard to come to the realization that we put up with abuse... .for years... decades.

I was just thinking after reading your post that if we as nons overheard someone describing our home lives as their own... .what would we think?

It's so different on the other side... the fog is so thick we can't see HOW bad things are... how abusive our relationships really are... how onesided... how much we have given up... .sometimes the fog is so thick we can't see our hand infront of our face.

I'm glad the fog is clearing for you

[Lucky Jim]

Hi nevaeh,

Abuse takes many forms in addition to physical battering and I'm glad that you've come to this realization about your r/s.  You don't deserve that kind of treatment!

I think froggy makes a good point, that if we heard someone else describing what we have endured we would probably be quite concerned, as your lawyer was.

I admire the steps that you are taking, so hang in there.

Lucky Jim

[nevaeh]

I was just thinking after reading your post that if we as nons overheard someone describing our home lives as their own... .what would we think?

It's so different on the other side... the fog is so thick we can't see HOW bad things are... how abusive our relationships really are... how onesided... how much we have given up... .sometimes the fog is so thick we can't see our hand infront of our face.

It's interesting because I have always known on some level that I am in an abusive relationship.  I also have "counseled" friends in similar "type" situations telling them they deserve better, they should leave, etc.  I guess what I never realized is how much I "excuse" his behavior.  What struck me yesterday was that I DID feel like I was having a bit of an out-of-body experience.  I was hearing me say those things like I was an observer in the room and it just hit me about halfway through the meeting how I actually must sound to my friends and family who I have confided in over the years. 

How do you feel about the near future now with this insight?

I am trying to figure this out. I still don't know if I want to file for a TPO as a way of getting him out of the house.  There are two things that might insight him into a rage where I "might" start to feel like he could lose his temper and possibly harm me in some way.  Accusing him of domestic abuse and "taking" his money.  So, what the lawyer is advising me to do with the money might be something that flips a big-time trigger for him, but it's something I legally need to do.  I have to think about that one.

In a perfect world I would go home tonight, tell him I want a divorce, tell him to leave and all of the pieces would fall into place and I would be done with our marriage in the next 3-4 months.  It's just not that easy.  I am right now trying to decide whether I want to wait until after the holidays or do it in the next couple of weeks.  I really WANT to do it in the next couple of weeks... .I don't want to play this charade anymore. But there are probably some financial reasons for staying until the first of the year.  I'm trying to decide whether those financial concerns are worth tolerating him for the next two months. 

I have an appointment with a therapist on Thursday.  We'll see where this all goes.

Thanks for your support everyone!

[Lady31]

I don't know where that perfect world is.  I think any person, BPD or not, would be more than a little upset to be caught off guard with being booted out of their house, slapped with a divorce & the other spouse taking the money. (As a non, how would you feel if this happened to you this way? It may be justified or necessary to do it this way, but it doesn't change the fact that that is what it is, and that is how he will see it & feel about it.)

I don't know what "taking his money" means that you wrote in your post.  I would venture to guess that you think he thinks the money is his.  If, however, it means you are making moves to leave yourself in the more favorable position and him in the less favorable, then I think that would terrify anyone.

Also, when determining what is fair, do we think we deserve more justified by what all we went through (this is what I struggled with) - or is it really fair and equitable for both of your futures?  Do you feel that it should be equal financial responsibility to provide for the children if you decide to leave the marriage?  All things to think about.  Watch those lawyers, they can be sharks in divorces - the advised plan is not always fair, equitable and right.

Also, there may be upsides to staying through the holidays besides financial purposes... .like the kids.  Probably be much easier on them to not have this so hot during that time frame.  It could be that things get really heated and strained the first couple months, which is most likely what will happen (you could expect this without BPD with a surprise of divorce the way you are planning to execute it.  Some of that response - less abuse! - is very reasonable, natural & expected.)  That almost guarantees the holidays to be extremely strained or maybe not even possible for the kids.

When weighing this out - it is clear there is no detrimental financial cost or that would have already swayed you.  If you are not in any danger, then it comes down to:

1) Your kids feelings/experience.  (Will cost them in some way if you don't wait.)

2) Your experience and need to get out of the situation.  (Will cost you in some way if you wait.)

3) Your husband's feelings/experience.  (Will cost him and be harder if you don't wait.)

You may or may not care about #3, but if you weigh #1 & #2 it will come down to - is your pay off for not waiting approximately two more months worth the price your kids will pay? 

Also, I am assuming you have a career and already have that end lined out for when you leave?  You make mention of being fearful he will lose his job and how that will effect your child support.  Good to have a solid plan in place that doesn't rely on him supporting you fully if you decide to leave the marriage.  At that point it will be both your responsibilities to financially provide for the kids equally - which is fair. I’m guessing you already have this end in place/covered and this is a non issue since you are already ready to move forward with your divorce plan.   

However, I think it’s wise to be sure you are in a position that you are not only prepared to carry your fair share of that load, but also his if at points it comes down to it.  You never know what will happen with them.  I am stressing this issue more because you have mentioned financial concerns a lot and it stands out in your posts.

[nevaeh]

I don't know what "taking his money" means that you wrote in your post.  I would venture to guess that you think he thinks the money is his.  If, however, it means you are making moves to leave yourself in the more favorable position and him in the less favorable, then I think that would terrify anyone.

A little background on our financial situation... .We both came into our marriage with essentially nothing.  New college grads with entry-level jobs.  We scrapped together enough to buy a house and basically did a complete remodel of that house during the 12 years we lived there.  We both have solid degrees and both got promotions and raises in our jobs.  H is also in the military so went on some longer deployments where he was able to earn extra money. 

H and I have always has strains in our marriage over money.  Not that we don't have money... .that he thinks *I* spend too much money.  Two months after we got married we had our first huge fight because I had spent around $75 on a christmas tree and decorations for our first christmas together.  I remember being very scared and feeling very helpless during that argument. 

H is very "frugal" and one thing I will give him credit for is his ability to make us save money and become very secure, financially.  Today, the only debt we have is on our house and it is a small mortgage - we have a ton of equity in our house.  We have no debt except our mortgage.  We pay credit cards off every month.  We also have a significant amount of money in savings.  This is the money that the lawyer is telling me I should take half of, in order to protect my fair share of that money. 

Both of our paychecks go into a joint account.  I know that my paycheck pays the majority of the bills.  H currently has over half of his paycheck going into his retirement account each month (and he makes about $40K more than me).  My retirement account is healthy as well, but he simply has more going into it each month.  My husband also has a stash of silver coins in a safe in our home.  The value of these coins is also substantial.  I have no desire to have the coins but there is a significant value to them.

My financial concerns are this... .if I do not withdraw half of the money from our savings account there is nothing from stopping H from taking more than half, or all of it.  Divorcing him means that he will lose control over what I spend my money and could be a significant trigger for him and his BPD.

The reason the lawyer is telling me to take half of the money is to prevent him from keeping it from me.  Believe me I completely understand how I would feel if the roles were reversed.  But, I know that I have no desire to "take him to the cleaners" or to try and get more than my fair share.  I hope that my H will feel the same way but I have no guarantees of that because of his history and his extreme control/obsession with "his" (our) money.  He grew up in a house where his dad was the income earner and his mom stayed at home, and his dad was also VERY controlling of the money.  He died a millionaire but had lived the life of a poor person, saving every penny so he could enjoy it in retirement.  While admirable (and believe me, I do give my husband credit for what he has helped us do with our finances), it has created a lot of strains in our relationship. 

One of H's brothers is on his 3rd wife and has 6 kids by the three moms.  The general consensus in his family is that the ex is always trying to screw the dad over.  I hope that my in-laws can see that I have been good to my H and that I have no desire to screw him over. 

The last time I told my H I wanted a divorce I told him what the lawyer had advised.  He was angry and disappointed that I would even think to do that.  He said he would always provide for the kids and that he would make sure we were taken care of.  However, this was said during a time when he was also begging me to stay, to not leave him.  I have a gut feeling that H might try to hide assets and/or money to keep me from getting my share of them (I am in a 50/50 state).  So I am really stuck between a rock and a hard place.  If I tell him ahead of time will he try and cut me off from any of our money?  If I don't tell him ahead of time and I withdraw half of the money will he see that as an act of war.  H probably believes that "more" of the money is his than is mine, simply because I make less money than him.  H thinks he has contributed more to our family.  That's not how it works, legally, in our state however.  He won't agree with that.  So, to the extent that he believes he would "deserve" to keep more money than me is really the biggest problem.

My instinct tells me that it's best to not take the money out without him knowing.  The lawyer says differently so I'm trying to figure out the best way to make this happen.  The reality is that I have to find a way to do this in a calm and planned out manner.  Getting H angry and springing this on him without any conversation is not going to do anything for keeping this amicable.  I have to figure out if it's worth the legal risk to do this the way I think will work best versus what the lawyer says will protect me.

Really, what I want to take away from this marriage is my fair share of our savings account, half of the equity in the house, and some even distribution of furniture and other belongings.  I want for him to pay whatever amount is dictated by our state for child support.  I want to continue the college savings accounts we have set up for the kids.  I want to be able to afford to buy a decent house in our same neighborhood and I don't want to financially "suffer" from making this split, because we have enough that neither of us should financially suffer from this.  That's all I want.  I just don't know if he will play fair. 

I do have a good job and make enough technically to support us if necessary.  I don't think there is ANYTHING serious enough in our past to justify potentially causing a black mark on my H's record that could potentially cause him to lose his job.  Not just for the fact that I wouldn't want him to not be able to pay support, but also because he will already be losing me and the kids and I don't want him to lose anything else in the process.

[Lady31]

Hey nevaeh,

It sounds like you will be fine financially, which is a BIG BONUS when trying to figure out how to get out of these relationships.

All of what you're saying sounds completely reasonable to me.  So I see from what you said that it's that HE won't think it's reasonable because he assigns a greater sense of "value" (coupled with his sense of entitlement) to his contributions.  Hmmm... .that's always a tough one, and you are right, there is nothing you can do about that.  You can't control it.

Frankly, I think you are right in pulling out your portion of the cash.  My exh was the same way regarding the entitlement and the "I do more for this family than you do" crap.  We were in business together, so that was REALLY touchy as that was my main career/business - and he wanted it.  When I filed for divorce, it was right after he went nuts on me and I felt like I had no choice.  Mine was really irresponsible with money, so the opposite of yours.  I too, pulled the money out of savings, because I was worried he would go nuts and pull it out first and then try to control me with it.  He wanted the business and didn’t want me to get anything out of it!  (Meanwhile, I financed & set it up, ran the office every day, took care of ALL other business operations aside from the actual service we performed as he did that part.  He doesn’t even know what to do and could have never done this without me.  I also took care of the household stuff and taking care of his daughter running her everywhere she needed to go, homework, etc.)  Anyway – since we didn’t have liquid cash NEAR what it would cost him to buy me out of the business, I could not afford for him to take and spend ANY of the cash – so I took it all out.

In the end – he made out far better than me.  He kept the house that was paid off in cash, the business and a chunk of cash for operating.  This is what I agreed to do and just took the rest of the cash that we did have and left to get it done without a fight.  So I didn’t screw him over either.  FAR from it.

If you have a good idea of all assets and expected incoming cash flow, what is your concern about him hiding assets/money?  How do you think he would get away with this?

[livednlearned]

My L gave me the same advice -- take half of the money out. I'm glad I did. From what you describe of your ex, there is no question he will prevent you from accessing the money. Then what? You're in for one hard journey trying to get that money. Even with court orders, judges, and lawyers, it's amazing how determined pwBPD are to ignore court orders. And courts see this all the time. It's considered an "advance" against the financial settlement you are entitled to by law. That is not "his" money -- you were married. That money is yours too.

Yes, it will trigger him. Everything you do when leaving him will trigger him. Do you have a well-thought out safety plan? Maybe staying in the house is not the best idea right now if you're afraid he could become violent.

My first consult with an L was similar to yours. I was describing behavior in our marriage, and my L said, "You have become so numb to this, you're talking about this stuff as though you're describing how you watered a plant. I don't think you understand how abusive he is."

She was right. I can't believe I lived like that for 10 years. I was a strong woman in every part of my life except for my marriage.  :'(  No one ever guessed how abusive N/BPDx was.

Have you read Why Does He Do That? Inside the Lives of Angry and Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft? My lawyer recommended that I read that, to help me understand abuse. It was the single most important book I read -- changed my life.

Emotional and psychological abuse is the main engine of abuse. Physical abuse is just a variant of it.

I'm glad you found this forum -- the advice I've found here has been priceless and the support helped me through some of the darkest times of my life.

You're making the right decision. It's so much better on the other side.

[ForeverDad]

I am right now trying to decide whether I want to wait until after the holidays or do it in the next couple of weeks.  I really WANT to do it in the next couple of weeks... .I don't want to play this charade anymore. But there are probably some financial reasons for staying until the first of the year.  I'm trying to decide whether those financial concerns are worth tolerating him for the next two months.

There is no single right moment to flick the switch.  Waiting for the right time... .you may keep delaying (as you did in the past).  Also consider that typically the holidays are a difficult time for pwBPD.  Think back, what was the last holiday season like.  If it was rough, then there's not much of a reason to wait.  Actually, if you had filed and are living separately during the holidays then wouldn't your home, wherever it might be, be a calm and stable place for you and the children?  Flip your perspective, you could consider it your first real holidays, not the last... .

H is very "frugal"... .  H currently has over half of his paycheck going into his retirement account each month (and he makes about $40K more than me).

My ex was frugal too.  Didn't mean we could stay together.  As for the extra $$$ in his retirement account, no problem, very likely the court will order him to share some of his retirement with you in an equalization.  That will occur near the end of the case when the financials are tabulated and assets/debts split, either in settlement or by judge's order.  Meanwhile the lawyers need to make clear to both of you not to squander or hide any assets.

Like all the others emphasized, yes, take at least half of the money from the joint accounts.  No, it is not mean or wrong, it is survival.  If you happen to take too much, no harm, no foul, rest assured that the financials will be 'balanced' somehow at the end of the divorce.  (The problem is that if he gets more than half, you can't trust that he will reimburse your portion of what he snagged.  You know you will behave correctly, you can't expect him to reciprocate your fairness.)  What is the percentage of how much he puts in versus you?  If you put in 3 times as much as he does then I would think taking 75% would be fair, taking 3 parts as yours and leaving his 1 part for him.  After all, that's the percentage you put in.   How about taking your portion right after the case is filed or just before he is served?  And prepare to stop or change your paycheck auto deposit in advance by a week or two.

Divorcing him means that he will lose control over what I spend my money and could be a significant trigger for him and his BPD.

Divorce is structured (good) but it is also somewhat adversarial (not so good).  There are rules in divorce cases.  They are there to protect both parents.  Take advantage of that structure and protection.  Also, in the past he felt he was the Only Authority.  Well, news for him, in divorce the judge is The Authority.

But, I know that I have no desire to "take him to the cleaners" or to try and get more than my fair share.  I hope that my H will feel the same way but I have no guarantees of that because of his history and his extreme control/obsession with "his" (our) money.

Get "fairness" out of your head.  This otherwise excellent quality is an Achilles Heel in xPD divorce cases.  Believe us, even if you are not quite as super-fair as you feel you need to be, court will still not fault you.  As is often said, The poorly behaving spouse seldom has consequences and the well behaving spouse seldom gets credit.  The point is, there are few 'penalties' in divorce and there are even fewer acknowledgements of niceness.

The last time I told my H I wanted a divorce I told him what the lawyer had advised.

Sorry, not this time.  By telling him in advance, you sabotage yourself.  Either he will beg you to cancel it and promise to change, as he did before, or he will obstruct and sabotage you.  With an xPD spouse, it's just to easy to self-sabotage by divulging information or strategies.  Sadly, just do it.

One of H's brothers is on his 3rd wife and has 6 kids by the three moms.  The general consensus in his family is that the ex is always trying to screw the dad over.  I hope that my in-laws can see that I have been good to my H and that I have no desire to screw him over.

Reality check.  His family believes his brother, divorce 3 times, doesn't have some responsibility for those failures?  Then likely for them "blood is thicker than water" and they will side with him even if he grows two heads and a tail.  Still try to keep things cordial, but accept the situation if/when they blame you and say you're just like the other ex-wives.

Really, what I want to take away from this marriage is my fair share of our savings account, half of the equity in the house, and some even distribution of furniture and other belongings.  I want for him to pay whatever amount is dictated by our state for child support.  I want to continue the college savings accounts we have set up for the kids.  I want to be able to afford to buy a decent house in our same neighborhood and I don't want to financially "suffer" from making this split, because we have enough that neither of us should financially suffer from this.  That's all I want.  I just don't know if he will play fair.

No he won't play fair.  But neither do you need to give in to every demand.  Frankly, though, he will probably be obstructive, fearing you will grab everything and so he will squirm and squeal like a stuck pig.  We all know it won't turn out that way, the courts have the math all figured out, but he will FEEL that way.  Let the lawyer shoulder as much of that aspect as possible.  Let the lawyer be the buffer as much as possible, it's her job.

Don't forget to get some of his retirement savings, so that you both walk away with approximately equal amounts.  Or let him keep his excess there to trade your due portion for something else, such as the house.  (Do you want the house or do you want to make a new life - a new "home" - in another house?)

Meanwhile, prepare.  Have you been documenting?  Good, keep that in a safe place he cannot access.  Keep copies with very trusted friends or family.  Quietly gather or copy the documents most likely to disappear.  Passports, marriage license, birth certificates, SSN cards, past tax papers, bank account statements, credit card statements, retirement statements, mortgage papers, car titles, etc.  If you can't locate some statements, at least try to get the bank names and account numbers.

My story... .A few months before we split I opened a checking account in a different bank and switched my paycheck deposit there.  Wow, did that earn some rages.  However, there was reason to do so.  I had just bought a good used car and as I had done before, I was going to take a loan out for it from my 401(k).  Well, my ex raged when I asked her to sign the J&S acknowledgement (a form my company required informing the spouse that an outstanding loan could impact inheritance.  Boy was the dealer angry, he wanted his money.  I went to our mortgage bank and got a loan there but to make auto deposits I opened a checking account there.  I used her loan signature refusal as my 'excuse' to her why I changed the deposit from our joint account.

Very important:  During a marriage it is normal to share and trust if it is to survive and prosper.  But if it is failing or imploding, then it is very different, you have handle things more businesslike.  Don't be torn or swayed by emotions, guilting or demands.  Forget the prior impulses to always be overly fair, overly forthcoming, overly whatever.  No more passive compliance during virtual interrogations.  You always have a right to privacy and confidentiality, but especially so now.  Revealing information or strategies too soon would sabotage you.  It feels terrible but that's the way it is.

[whirlpoollife]

Do not feel guilty about taking your share of the money. Don't  feel the need to be nice. You can open  a separate individual account with that money so its still there right next to your joint account in the same bank if that would make you feel better.  Once you file, it is then a business transaction (as I have learned from here).  My x2b Npd/sociopath h just closed a joint account which I left untouched upon waiting for L to say close it. It wasn't much $ but it had an 'or' on it so h was able to close it without me which h did.

I read the book lnl recommended and I recommend it too. Also "In Sheep's Clothing, dealing with manipulative people" is also good.  

Last year I had filed in the spring and it was fall till I had a court date to get h out of the house. That was pure hell. So if your L can move things quicker when it comes to that part , do so.  

Two years ago I saw a L for my first consultation and decided to wait for the holidays to pass. MHO , if you have a plan set , ignore the holidays for this year and move forward. ( they have been around for hundreds of years and will be for more)

It is tough to admit to ourselves but ditto to what lnl says, "emotional and psychological abuse is the main engine of abuse... ."  

[ForeverDad]

For the separation, divorce, legal traps, allegations, custody issues, parenting time issues, chaos, obstructions, delays, etc... .

Bill Eddy & Randi Kreger:  Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder

For the parenting, validation skills, insight, alienation, etc... .

Richard Warshak:  Divorce Poison

[nevaeh]

Have you read Why Does He Do That? Inside the Lives of Angry and Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft? My lawyer recommended that I read that, to help me understand abuse. It was the single most important book I read -- changed my life.

Yes, I have that book.  I read it about 3 years ago.  I should probably pull it out again.  I also have about 15 other books that I have purchased over the years to try and help me deal with my H.   

For the separation, divorce, legal traps, allegations, custody issues, parenting time issues, chaos, obstructions, delays, etc... .

Bill Eddy & Randi Kreger:  Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder

I also have this book... .and have read it, but need to go through it again as I finalize my plans.

There is no single right moment to flick the switch.  Waiting for the right time... .you may keep delaying (as you did in the past).  Also consider that typically the holidays are a difficult time for pwBPD.  Think back, what was the last holiday season like.  If it was rough, then there's not much of a reason to wait.  Actually, if you had filed and are living separately during the holidays then wouldn't your home, wherever it might be, be a calm and stable place for you and the children?  Flip your perspective, you could consider it your first real holidays, not the last... .

I hear you 100%!  I have been going back and forth between before/after holidays and this is what I come back to!  Why wait?  The holidays are ALWAYS stressful for us.  H gets really excited about Christmas... .nostalgic, somewhat generous, etc... .but as soon as we have spent any amount of time with his or my families, or once he has been home on vacation from work for more than about 2-3 days he becomes bored and then starts finding things to pick at and eventually rages.  Last Christmas we had a HUGE fight because he got physical with S12 for picking on his little brother and not stopping immediately when asked.  H smacked S12 in the head and as H came down the stairs after this happening, I smacked him in the head, asking him how he liked it.  We had a HUGE argument and I told him if he ever laid a hand on my kids again that I would leave and take them with me.  He also threw a big box with a fire pit in it down the stairs during this argument, making an 8" hole in the wall.  So... .believe me, I can see the holidays being stress free and enjoyable for ONCE if H is not around.  This fact is definitely NOT lost on me!   

Don't forget to get some of his retirement savings, so that you both walk away with approximately equal amounts.  Or let him keep his excess there to trade your due portion for something else, such as the house.  (Do you want the house or do you want to make a new life - a new "home" - in another house?)

I would actually love to keep our home.  Maybe if I factor in the differences between our retirement accounts there is some way it could work.  I am not averse to moving, and in some ways get a little excited about it... .fresh start for me and the kids.  My main goal is to leave the marriage with money in the savings account so I don't have to live paycheck to paycheck just to keep up with a mortgage payment.  Our property taxes are also ridiculous and I'm not sure I want to keep that up.  The only advantage to being able to keep the house is that I'm not sure how quickly our house will sell and I don't necessarily want to delay finalizing the divorce until it sells.  A bit of a catch 22, and I'm not sure how to deal with that.  I honestly don't want to get any of H's retirement later in life - if I cut ties now then I want to be done with it - I don't want him to feel like I'm "taking his money" for the rest of his life.  He also will receive a significant military retirement which I know I am also entitled to a portion of. Maybe there is a way that a settlement can be made to waive my right to his work and military retirement in exchange for a settlement that would allow me to keep the house AND a portion of our savings, and then be able to sell it on my own when the timing is right.  I hadn't really thought about it this way.

THANK YOU all for your advice... .it has been helpful!  I was crying on my way in to work today just thinking about all of this. I know that H knows I am struggling and I see him trying to help out more around the house, he tried to give me a hug last night, and he keeps trying to talk about our "future".  I just feel like I can't keep up this charade for another two months.  It's not fair to anyone and it makes being at home miserable because I find myself just trying to avoid him.  Our anniversary is next Monday (18 yrs)  :'( 

[Lucky Jim]

I just feel like I can't keep up this charade for another two months.  It's not fair to anyone and it makes being at home miserable because I find myself just trying to avoid him.  Our anniversary is next Monday (18 yrs)

Hi nevaeh, There's no "good" time to end a marriage.  My BPDxW and I separated 10 days before Christmas, which was hard on everyone (we have two kids), but it was a relief to make the break and in my view the right thing to do.  Sometimes postponing the inevitable only makes it worse and is like beating a dead horse.  We were formally divorced this year after a 16-year marriage so I have been in your shoes.

When I got out of the toxic BPD soup, I never looked back.  Moving on is hard, but I don't miss the drama and abuse.

Hang in there,

Lucky Jim

[momtara]

Are you sure you want a divorce?

As for a protection order, the longer you wait after an incident, the less weight your case will have, but you can usually get a TPO (in some states) without a lot of evidence.  Then you have to go for the final restraining order.  Often, a guy won't want that on his record, so your attorney and his atty will have to work out an agreement that keeps him out of the house for a certain amount of time, it makes communication clear, when he can see the kids, etc.

In the TPO order, you can ask for a certain amount of support and put that stuff in it too.

I did a TPO last year - I had no choice.  Hubby had stalked me all night long, yelling at me, and did some scary stuff with the kids.  (Not physical harm, just odd things.) I felt *awful* about doing it.  He had trust issues as it was.  But something needed to change, and I was really scared.  You have a lawyer, which I didn't even have at the time. 

I got him out of the house for three months and had time to think.   I felt relieved beyond belief to not be looking over my shoulder for him.  That was a revelation.  But I felt sad and missed him too.

I pushed him to get counseling and he did.  But he still has deep seeded issues and we are divorcing.  Part of me regrets that, though.  I see him trying.

So the bottom line is that you have to decide if you think anything in your marriage is worth saving.  As for getting a TPO, you have to think about whether you need it or whether it's just strategic.  If you are truly afraid of how he'll react to the divorce, you may just have to get it.  There are other orders you can put through to get him out if you file.  Your lawyer should tell you how to do it and the consequences.



Are you sure you want a divorce and want to

[momtara]

Also, remember that he will have the kids for some of the time - so you will have to deal with that.  I mean, after the TRO ends.  He may get custody for some of the time, maybe weekends, every other weekend, a day here and there.

[livednlearned]

Are you sure you want a divorce?

For me, the question was: Are you ready to feel good?

Good, meaning safe, whole, free, strong, self-respecting.

[momtara]

To clarify what I said above:  A TPO shouldn't just be strategic.  It should be because you need it for safety, at least in some ways.  Go with your gut. 

[nevaeh]

Hi momtara... .

Yes, I am sure that I want a divorce.  When I saw the L on Monday for the consultation she pulled out "my file", indicating that I had been to see them in 2007, which was the furthest I got in the process, paying for a 2-hour meeting to discuss proceedings.  This made me remember that I also met with the same firm in early 2006, 2007, 2010, and now.  The other meetings were also 30-minute "free" consultations.

I specifically remember from the 2010 meeting that the lawyer told me I would need to prepare myself for the fact that the courts in our state had been handing down more rulings giving fathers shared custody (50%).  In 2010 my kids were S5, S8, and D11 and there was no way I was going to risk my H getting 50% custody of the kids (S8 now S12) in particular.  I couldn't bear the thought of them being away from me for a whole weekend let alone half of the year.  So, I decided to stay for them (mainly to be sure they had me influencing their lives every day, as well as some level of protecting them from H's craziness).

The 2006 visit revolved around H's return from Iraq and the revelation of his affair.  My youngest was a baby (1) at the time.  I just was not emotionally/mentally ready to be on my own. 

I don't *want* to hurt my H.  I don't *want* to disrupt my kids' lives and possibly make them move.  I don't *want* to go through any of this.  However, I have become very clear in the past several months that I feel dead, defeated, and destroyed and I HAVE to do something to be happy again.  H is not able to do that for me, and I'm not able to do that for him.  The divorce has to happen to save my life, really.  I came to the realization that I do not want to look back at my life when I am 70 and realize that I wasted it being with someone who completely depleted my soul, while I just stood by and let it happen.

As far as the TPO, while there is a chance he will get mad and will go on a rage (throwing/breaking things, holes in the wall, etc), history tells me that he will be clingy and emotional and will want to "talk" this to death... .basically wear me down to the point that I will choose to stay with him.  Been there, done that.  So, I have to honestly answer that a large part of getting a TPO would be strategic, because I want to get him out of the house.  If he won't leave the house, then I will leave, which gets complicated when you have 3 kids.  Not a quick solution if it goes that way.  I'm not really sure I want or need to go that route. 

I think this is really going to involve sitting down with H and just being 100% honest with where I am at and where I am going with all of this.  It's not just him that's the problem... .it's also me.  I'm ready to shoulder much of the "blame" for this if it helps to end it sooner.  I think there is a fine line of shouldering too much blame, though, because I think that if I completely make myself out to be the problem then I am actually giving him an excuse to blame me for everything... .and an excuse to vent any anger he has on me. 

I was thinking of an analogy this morning on my way to work.  I am not a spanker... .I do not believe in spanking my children.  The only time my children have been spanked by me is when I am angry and in the heat of my anger.  So, I consciously make an effort if I get that angry to just walk away, telling them I am very angry and that we will talk about this later (unless there is an immediate safety issue to be dealt with).  I know some use spanking as a punishment that is delivered "later"... .say, after 2-3 hours when the parents have discussed the issue and then one sits the kid down and tells them they will be spanked as punishment for what they have done.  To me, that seems almost worse, like the physical act of spanking becomes a calculated thing, which just seems wrong to me.  I personally can't "plan" the act of hitting/spanking my child. 

So I was thinking that maybe this is part of why I get stuck when trying to figure out when/how to tell my H that I want a divorce.  If I tell him when he is in the middle of a rage or we are in the middle of a fight then I am just doing it in anger and the amount of thought going into it is theoretically minimal.  However, if I make all of the plans while he is "good" then spring it on him then I feel like I'm being cold and calculated. Rationally I have to acknowledge that it makes more sense to be able to sit down and calmly discuss this with him so that there is no doubt there has been a lot of thought put into this decision.  I can't let our marriage end during a heat-of-the-moment/anger decision.  I just have to figure this part out.  This is where I am stuck.  I would like to believe that if I handle this in this manner (calm and rational) that H will react better.  However, does the child getting spanked not cry because mom and dad explained *why* they were getting spanked?  No, it still hurts like he! and the child is still going to feel angry and betrayed that even though they did "X", they still didn't "deserve" the punishment they got.

**Please note that I am NOT making any judgments about spanking with this analogy. It's not for me.  I get that other people do it and feel it is effective and if it works for them, I do not judge them. So, not trying to start any wars about whether spanking is good or bad. 

Also, remember that he will have the kids for some of the time - so you will have to deal with that.  I mean, after the TRO ends.  He may get custody for some of the time, maybe weekends, every other weekend, a day here and there.

I am OK with this.  I have concerns about S12 spending significant amounts of time with his dad post-divorce but the lawyer and I talked about this and how that could be dealt with if problems arise during visitation.  My D16 actually told me the other day that she thinks that if H didn't live with us that he would "like" the kids better and that he would be more fun to be around, and then the kids might actually enjoy spending time with him.  I think she is right, actually.  I have no desire to keep the kids from their dad... .in fact there is nothing I want more than for them to have a good relationship with him!  I don't, however, think that he could handle having them living with them as it is just too much stress for him and he can't help himself from getting angry at them for stupid things.  We would have to work through some issues with co-parenting and that could get touchy.  My H loves our kids.  He has some good things that he can teach them and they do laugh with each other and get along much of the time.  When H gets mad at them (which can happen on the turn of a dime), he gets mean and calls them names and/or swears at them.  He puts them down and makes them feel small.  He can deflate their ego in a matter of seconds... .I have seen it happen time after time, unfortunately.

[ForeverDad]

I don't *want* to hurt my H.  I don't *want* to disrupt my kids' lives and possibly make them move.  I don't *want* to go through any of this.  However, I have become very clear in the past several months that I feel dead, defeated, and destroyed and I HAVE to do something to be happy again.  H is not able to do that for me, and I'm not able to do that for him.  The divorce has to happen to save my life, really.

Nearly all members arrived here not *wanting* to separate or divorce.  But it was virtually the only choice left, even appeasing hadn't worked, not for long and it just beat us down even more.  So look at it this way... .your spouse is finally, after many years, facing his consequences.  His.

a large part of getting a TPO would be strategic, because I want to get him out of the house.  If he won't leave the house, then I will leave, which gets complicated when you have 3 kids.  Not a quick solution if it goes that way.  I'm not really sure I want or need to go that route.

You skipped a step there... .(1) he leaves or (2) you leave with the kids.

(1 or 2) he leaves or (1 or 2) court order makes him leave or (3) you leave with the kids.

Remember, court is your friend in this instance, an authority that he can't ignore or bamboozle (hopefully).  Don't be timid about asking for court to step in and step limits.  That's precisely why it's there.

I'm ready to shoulder much of the "blame" for this if it helps to end it sooner.  I think there is a fine line of shouldering too much blame, though, because I think that if I completely make myself out to be the problem then I am actually giving him an excuse to blame me for everything... .and an excuse to vent any anger he has on me.

This could backfire.  He could later claim you admitted you were a bad abuser.  And you sense of honesty if questioned would be to answer, "Yes, I told him that but... ." and the court would only pay attention to "Yes'.  Especially do not admit to poor or abusive behaviors, he may try to use them against you later!  Be aware, beware.  Perhaps you're overthinking this?  Why are you still feeling you need to appease your spouse?  Would "softening the blow" by admitting wrongs really make that much of a difference or be worth the price paid?  Can't you just say you're done and not have to wrack your brain for excuses or examples that could make you look bad during the divorce?

My D16 actually told me the other day that she thinks that if H didn't live with us that he would "like" the kids better and that he would be more fun to be around, and then the kids might actually enjoy spending time with him.  I think she is right, actually.

It possible to a certain extent.  Just be aware that you've apparently been his primary scapegoat and perhaps deflected most poor behaviors from the kids and let him focus on you.  If you're not a close target anymore, things would be different, it's just hard to guess how different.  However, they're older now and if you keep the lines of communication open then they'll let you know if/when things get troubling with their dad.

[nevaeh]

This could backfire.  He could later claim you admitted you were a bad abuser.  And you sense of honesty if questioned would be to answer, "Yes, I told him that but... ." and the court would only pay attention to "Yes'.  Especially do not admit to poor or abusive behaviors, he may try to use them against you later!  Be aware, beware.  Perhaps you're overthinking this?  Why are you still feeling you need to appease your spouse?  Would "softening the blow" by admitting wrongs really make that much of a difference or be worth the price paid?  Can't you just say you're done and not have to wrack your brain for excuses or examples that could make you look bad during the divorce?

Well, ForeverDad... .you are 100% right and thank you for calling me out on that!

As a matter of fact, I just had my first appointment with a new therapist and she was excellent.  Through the course of the conversation found out that she had done DBT therapy for 8 years , working with pwBPD.  So she knows the traits of what I'm dealing with very well.  Of course, H is not diagnosed but she understands the behaviors are there.  Only had an hour so could only give her a miniscule fraction of what all has happened in the past 23 years but I felt like she "got it" right away.

Where we landed by the end of the appointment is that she asked me what I wanted.  DIVORCE.  OK, so if that's what you want how are you going to get there?  That's when all of the things I have been posting about came to light.  Housing logistics and "managing" H's response, which you have picked up on. 

Here's the thing, and I know you all probably understand this... .I have been trying to "manage" H's moods, behaviors, for the past 23 years. I have shouldered so much stress and anxiety trying to make sure H doesn't get mad.  Oh.My.Word... .really?  Yes, really!  This is such an engrained way of living for me I don't think I know HOW to do anything else!  When I walk into the house I quickly scope everything out... .making sure lights/tvs are turned off, dirty socks aren't laying on the floor, dishes are picked up and put in the sink, wrappers aren't laying on the table in the living room (kids aren't supposed to eat in the living room-H's rule). I do my kids' chores if they haven't done them and H has reminded them more than once, just so kids don't get in trouble or yelled/sworn at, or told they are lazy.  Seriously, these are things I do WITHOUT EVEN REALIZING I AM DOING IT.  I guess I feel like I can manage his anger by controlling what I can... .and in this situation I guess I"m trying to figure out how to "control" the circumstances of me telling H I am divorcing him to minimize the negative impact to me.  I disguise it by saying I want to protect him, but in reality I think I am trying to protect me... .from an angry reaction.

The plan for my next appointment is to work through my two options for telling him of my plans - pros and cons of each, etc.  Option 1 is to pay the retainer to the lawyer, get all of the paperwork in order, draw up the legal separation document, temporary protective order then have H served and right before he is served remove my share of money from savings.  Everything done upfront, H finds out about it after it is already done.  Option 2 is to tell him what I am doing (probably already having taken half of money out of savings), asking him to leave the house (or I will leave with kids), and telling him I have withdrawn the money. Then pay retainer to lawyer and have papers drawn up to have legal separation document done within a few weeks time.

So... .as I'm reading through my two options I see a glaring problem that might already be giving me my answer.  I am basically unprotected once I tell him I want a divorce.  I have no immediate legal means of getting him out of the house so I will need to leave (with kids) if there is a problem. Maybe I'm too exposed in option 2.  Option 1 is clearly in MY best interest.  Option 2 is probably in his best interest. 

I have a lot to think about but I am getting closer.  I appreciate all of the feedback I'm getting... .so much!

[momtara]

"This is such an engrained way of living for me I don't think I know HOW to do anything else!"

I hear you.  The first day my H was out, I kept looking over my shoulder, then realized I didn't have to do that anymore.  It was the holidays and he hates holiday music.  I was able to put it on for me and the kids.  What a revelation! 

I wonder if your hubby has OCD.  Mine was diagnosed with that - he also had issues with things like lights being left on, etc... .  but this diagnosis may just be a way for his therapist to avoid saying he has BPD.

DO you need a protective order to get him out?  Or just some kind of court order?  I'm not sure.  If you want to ask more legal questions you can ask in limited doses on avvo.com.  Lawyers are so expensive, it's hard to keep asking them questions.  I did free consultations with a lot of different ones.

Keep us posted!@

[Lucky Jim]

Hi nevaeh, I am so sorry to hear what you are going through and admire your resolve.

When you say that you are "basically unprotected" when you inform him that you want a divorce, what do you mean by that?  You mention the possibility of leaving with the kids if there is a "problem" -- what sort of problem do you anticipate? 

Are you concerned about physical violence?  Rage?  It sounds extremely stressful so make sure your plan is sound before you swing into action.  Do you have a friend or relative who might be your "wingman" on this mission?  Lucky Jim

[momtara]

You mentioned somewhere that if he doesn't leave the house, you will.  I think it's best for you to stay if you can.  If you leave, take the kids. 

I just think there may be ways to get an order to get him out without needing for it to be a protective order, if you don't think the situation is severe enough.  Only you know how bad he can be.