BPDFamily.com

Hi Everyone,

I’m back with an update. Many of you know my story and if you don’t and want to, then you can search my posts.

I will recap some of the key points. Like most here, my SO has BPD. He has put me through he! and back and dumped me last Oct.  He entered therapy and is working a DBT program. He wrote me in late Dec. asking me to give us another chance, that he has changed. I reluctantly agreed.  We had three major issues that need to changed to make us successful, trust, explosive behavior and empathy. There is a lot of behaviors related to the empathy. In the past I felt like I was a low priority and that at times he would blow me off.

It started out a little rocky, because we started with email and text. I was hoping to find a therapist to help with the transition. I would text him and he wouldn’t respond until the next day and I knew he got them. It didn’t feel like he was excited to have me back. I know that you can’t read tone in writing and I was feeling not heard and misunderstood, Déjà vu. I decided we needed to meet and talk or this was going to be over before it started. We talked and things went well.  Later we sat down and I told him, what I needed to be happy in a relationship.  It was a long conversation. I told him that what I needed now, was to be able to trust that what he says he will do and to feel connection, to feel like I was a priority and not just a thought in passing. The agreement that was made, was he was going to call me on the days he wasn’t here to check up on how we were each feeling (an emotional check in) and that we have a standing date on Friday and Saturday starting at 7pm. If he stayed over night or during the day that was up to him.

So everything is going well until; The day before Valentine’s day we made plans as to how to spend V day. It’s the morning of Valentine’s Day and his daughter calls (she is 24 and lives 12 hrs. away) and is crying because her dog is at the vet in ICU.  The dog is old and she has had her since she was 10. I’m sure over the years with her father being BPD it was more than just a pet, a support dog. I understood and there didn’t need to be a discussion, he needed to be there for her, so he left right away and drove 12hrs. straight through to Florida. During the drive we talked on the phone several times, several of the conversations lasting 3 to 4 hrs. I was trying to make the drive easier and wanted to support him while he supports his daughter.

Here is where the problem begins. When he is with his daughter she is in charge. He can’t call me or text me and I can’t call him or text him. This is not new. When we met, the first few times we went anywhere with her, I sat in the back seat and she sat in the front. If he gives me a gift or we have plans to go somewhere, I can’t mention it if his daughter is around. This is an issue but there were so many other BPD issues that this was minor in comparison, so it has never been addressed. He knows it is a problem. She was living in the same town at the time and he was living with me and if he had dinner or spent the day with her, I felt they deserved their time together and I could respect that, so if he didn’t communicate with me I was ok with it.

His daughter does like me. The day before they were suppose to drive down to Florida (this was before we broke up) he went BP on her. Everything he did to me, he was doing to her. She was cowering in a chair while he ranted. Then he asked me if he was right. I told him he was 100% wrong and told him to look at her and see what he was doing. He could have broken up with me then, but I wasn’t going to let him abuse her, while I was there. He left and I went over and hugged her and she burst into tears and said that wasn’t anything compared to other episodes he has had and she feels like she is all alone in the world. At that point, she was ready to go to Florida and write him off. I told her that he is in therapy and he is trying to change and we both need to give him a chance. He came back and said he was sorry, which was a first, they made up and things have been good between them ever since.

Now he is in Florida and he has to wait until she goes to bed to call me and whispers so she can’t hear him.  The dog died two days later and he calls me crying and she is flipping out. I’m there to be supportive for him. I am also proud that he is able to show his daughter some empathy, something he couldn’t do in the past. She falls apart over the dog dying and is grieving. It is not for me to judge how people grieve, but I have known people who have lost a child be in more control.  She is putting cut flowers all over her apartment, everywhere the dog has ever been and every day now is an anniversary as to how long the dog has been dead for.  I texted and told her how sorry I was and that when she came home that I would sew the dog’s bandanas together and make her a pillow.

I’m still okay with everything up to this point. We have short conversations at night, which is all the connection that I need. Then on Saturday his daughter is doing school work (she is getting her Doctorate) and he calls me from the park. We talk and he says I’ll call you tonight.  So that night I stay up and wait for his call. At 1pm, he texts, sorry I didn’t call, goodnight. This is where the disappointment comes in. I thought that we were starting a new relationship and I trusted, believed that he would call when he said he would. If he didn’t know if he could call, then he shouldn’t have said anything. I had just talked to him; I would have been ok with it. I was upset, because he didn’t follow threw. I still can’t believe what he says, they are just more words. The next night he called, short conversation, still hurt about the day before, but something we can address when he got home. Wasn’t going to make it a big deal. Then I don’t hear from him for two days except one text about the TV show he was watching and goodnight.

It had only been a week and he was already blowing me off. I have been understanding and I was there for him and he is right back to same old behavior. The talks we had and agreements we made no longer apply. After his two days of not calling he texted me his excuses. They may have been true, but I believed he would call, so why should I believe him now.  I didn’t respond, I’ve heard those words so many times before. Then he texted me later that day, saying he was checking in to see how I was doing. I texted that I was hanging in there. The whole week he was there he didn’t check in the middle of the day to see how I was feeling, it’s all been about his daughter and him.  All of a sudden I become important when I’m no longer there at his beckon call. He texted back  ? and I responded that it wasn’t the time or place to discuss my feelings and I didn’t want to do it at 11:30 at night when he has to hide from his daughter. I told him to take care of himself and his daughter. I no longer want to be part of the triangle.  Our relationship is on a weak foundation and if I continue then it won’t make it. I told him to call me when he gets home.  All this time he hasn’t missed a day of work, that’s allowed. By the time he leaves Florida, it will have been away at least a month.

I now know there wouldn’t be any calls, no disappointments.

I know it’s hard to see your child in pain and it takes a lot out of you, because last year I took three weeks off work to take care of my daughter who was suffering from severe panic attacks. I didn’t shut him out.  He was BPD and didn't make that situation easy.

I could understand if this happened because of the dog’s death, but this isn’t new, he has done this to me again and again. What adult let’s a 24-year-old dictate who and when he can talk or text someone? It isn’t her fault it is his, he is allowing it. Just the fact that he would let this happen shows how much he values me.  It’s like I am the mistress and he has to sneak away from his wife. We contacted a couple’s counselor and she was willing to see us, but maybe she has dropped us, since we haven’t made an appointment. I will wait and see what the outcome is and if it is possible to move forward, but from the way I am feeling now, I’m probably done.

He is not going to change just because I have a need. He has to do this for himself. If I am of some value to him then he will do what needs to be done so I will want to stay. You know, water a plant it lives, don’t it dies. There is someone out there who would love to have me by their side and it wouldn’t be hard to find someone to treat me better. The bar is low.

B53

Hmmm...please don't take this as argument or criticism.  Take as a possibly helpful point of view.

Axioms:  He doesn't do big emotions well...  Is that fair?

Massive emotions involved with distraught daughter.  I have daughters (and wife) that are big pet people.  Hey..I get attached to them as well.

So...most "normal" people could have big emotions during this time and be inconsistent with their relationships to others.

Yet..he isn't..."normal".  You would expect him to be on the extremes.

So...I would advise you to resist "evaluating" any of this to mean certain things about your relationship. 

Perhaps put it another way.

Maybe this is a time "you can be there for him" instead of him rising to the occasion to meet your needs.

How does this perspective sound to you?

Best,

FF

FF,

I was actually expecting you to point out that I was insensitive and expecting too much.  You had me until “Maybe it’s time “you can be there for him”, instead of him rising to the occasion.” Your right, he doesn’t do big emotions. It’s not that I don’t feel for him or understand the pain from loss, after all that was me four months ago after he walked out on me for the sixth time. I’m still trying to heal from that pain. One month together hasn’t magically erased the last two and a half years. It’s like expecting a car to run without gas. I’m running on empty and I don’t have anything right now to offer to others. He has used it all up. We all have certain things we need for us to be happy. I may be asking to much of him, but I know that my expectations are not unrealistic, because this has never been an issue in any past relationship. It was a natural part of the give and take. At some point we both need to accept that he is unable to give me what I need. That doesn’t make him a bad person, but me continuously telling him what I need and him letting me down and expecting me to stay, is selfish. At some point it needs to end. Maybe this could have been the time to show me that he can be the guy that he keeps promising me he can be.

You don’t get it. I’m AWAYS there for him. I could write a detailed list of all the times I have been there for him. He has been there for me ZERO. I have emails from him admitting he has never been there for me, but he always says next time it will be different, but next time never comes. Our whole relationship was about him. You live with a BPD, how often is it about you? Other than the people here, who feels our pain, where is our credit. We give, they take. How many times is Charlie Brown going to let Lucy hold the ball? This situation has nothing to do with the death of her dog, this is about him.

I have not talked to one person that thinks this is ok and I work with preschool teachers who have nothing but empathy for children and most everybody else. 

As teachers and parents, our job is to teach children boundaries, independence, to be able to go out into the world and be happy. A 24-year-old should not be running a 64 yr. old man’s life. He makes it very clear that he doesn’t like the situation, but he is afraid of what she will do if he stands up to her, which makes her a bully by definition.  If he hadn’t let her be in charge, this situation would never have happened. He could have given me a quick call sometime during the day, I would be happy and supportive, he wouldn’t feel like she is sucking the life out of him, he could cope better and be there for her. The situation would be sad and there would be grieving but there would be a healthy support system for all involved. These dynamics where set up long ago, way before me and he created this mess and now he has to deal with the natural consequences. I’m collateral damage. This situation is actually doing her a disservice; her emotional age is not that of a healthy 24 yr. old. Imagine how the poor guy who gets mixed up with her is going to be treated. It is obvious who will be in charge. But, like I said before, this really isn’t about her.

Here is the irony, he broke up with his last girlfriend because her son was rude to him and she wouldn’t do anything about it. 

Good point..what have you taught him over the last few weeks?

Best,

FF

Sadly, nothing. He is the victim.

Hmm...I see that I didn't ask the question very well. 

We'll never know what he actually learned or understood.  Let me rephrase...what did you intend to teach him/show him through your leadership in the relationship over the past couple of weeks.

Best,

FF

B53, it sounds painful what you've been through. I feel for you deeply on the adult child triangle. I struggle with that, and can only imagine how painful it is to feel sidelined at a time you're trying to rebuild trust with your BF.

Is your preference to work through the disappointment and sadness here with people who understand (vent)?

And, or

Are you looking for post-mortem feedback to help process what happened?

It sounds like you are done and wanting to move on ... is that accurate to say?

After my BPD marriage failed, I was motivated to look at my stuff only because I didn't want to repeat it going forward with someone else. Some people like to do this when it's raw and others prefer to wait when it's less painful. Others work it out in the next relationship. Some remain repeat customers  :(

We're all different and what's best isn't the same for all.

Any thoughts on what you'd prefer?

Livednlearned,

Thank you for your reply, you always have a way of making me think and feel cared about.

He came home earlier than I thought. He came to talk, but his stance was that of annoyance and not open to hearing what I had to say , he was in a BPD episode. He put his head in his hands and said, “I can’t make you happy” said it was over and walked out. I didn’t even say much. I vented here, but none of that was said to him, I was calm. One thing he has always said is  how accurately I can read him. What I saw was a broken man at the end of his rope. I still believe that I should be able to say how I feel. I thought everything was going to be so different and I am questioning if I am right back in the cycle. If that is his decision, it shouldn’t be made with everyone so emotionally charged and on edge. He has said in the past that his daughter was starting to act like his ex-wife, who he hates and when he got there,  he was already saying her behavior was troubling.  I think more went on then her just having him on a short leash, because he looked traumatized.

So I texted him and said that our talk hadn’t gone as I hoped and     could we talk again before a final decision is made.

I just keep thinking that if we had some guidance that maybe we could turn this around. If we got an impartial third party’s advice then maybe we could see things in a different light. I really want to be a good partner even if I don’t end up with him. I am willing to look at how I negatively contribute to a relationship. On the other hand am I just being a fool? I really don’t know.

B53

I'm curious to explore this more.  Can you give examples of when you said how you feel?  How did that go? 

What about times when you did not.

 
How did you want him to understand this?


 
And also how you positively contribute..right?



Clarity..I don't think you are being a fool...not even close. 

My hope is that we can guide you to understand these dynamics better.  It's hard stuff to know in general and then each particular relationship can have unique things in it.

We've got your back on this...we are on your side. 

Best,

FF

Livednlearned,

I not sure what I want in response to my posts. I guess clarity. How ever I do it, I don’t want to work it out in a another relationship.

FF

What I said is, that when he said that he would call me, I believed him, I waited up until 1pm and then the next two nights, he didn't call me at all. We have only been doing this four four weeks. Four months ago I was grieving like your daughter. I said that I'm struggling too and that right now that connection that we had talked about is a lifeline to me. He didn't listen, he was hostile and he said, "I thought that you would support me".  All I could think was,( i didn't say it) don't I always. That's my job here.

His daughter has made it perfectly clear that she doesn’t want him to have anyone else in his life. There has been screaming battles between them over this. She is an only child and has gotten all of his attention. Mom isn't in the picture.

I actually understand part of why she feels this way, because which ever one of us he is with, the other one becomes an afterthought and the decision is made by what suits him best. He has a weekly FaceTime with his daughter on Sunday. The first weekend we were back together he canceled it because he wanted to be with me. He made excuses to her why he couldn’t talk, but they weren’t true. If she knew the real reason she would have flipped out. That was their time and it should have been his top priority, not seen as something he can dismiss because there is something else he wants to do. The next weekend he called, but he expressed to me that he wasn’t up for it.  It’s sad to believe that connecting with the person you say you love can turn into a chore.  This is what he does to me when he is with her. 

What I want, is for him to realize that people aren’t something that you tend to when it’s convenient. It’s sad to believe that I’m back in this situation because I took a leap of faith and believed him when he said that he was in this to make it work. Right now I feel broken, I am trying to build trust and to do that I need a sense of connection, dependability and routine. He told me he was going to call me, it was the offer he made and I took him at his word. I waited up until 1am to only get a text, sorry I didn’t call goodnight. He went to bed, no concerns. It was all too familiar and I was really hurt. Then two nights, no call at all. Up until then he called me everyday. I couldn’t reach out, call or text, I’m just out there hanging around until he decides to show up again. It had only been four weeks since we were back together.

The other thing I would like him to do is look at a situation and choose what is right, not going along with something that is hurtful to others to keep the peace. Have some integrity.

I realized that this thing with his daughter was a big deal and required his attention, but should that then just make me a choice. He managed to work everyday, he managed with her, but I am no longer a priority. If I had done all the things he has done to me and made the promises he made, I would crawl out of my death bed before I would disappoint him again. But that is who I am as a person, not him.

I had no idea the extent of the control that was going on with his daughter. I knew that she had these rules, but I guess I just didn’t believe that there wouldn’t be exceptions made. I can’t believe that someone would ask that of another person. She is calling all her friends for support and he is not allowed to reach out to anyone as if his life is of no value. All he is allowed to have is her. The fact that he is complicit and has chosen to except her demands to the detriment of a loving relationship is mind boggling to me. Should her dog dying take precedence over what is right and what is wrong? Are there times where it’s ok to bully someone?

I really don’t know where to go from here. I’m so confused. This isn’t about just one issue. To be honest, right now I don’t want to see him., but I don’t want to end it. There is a lot to sort out and this is above my pay grade. I don’t even know where to begin.

When we talk about his BPD personalities, I call the acting out one, the other guy. The one that came yesterday was that guy.  If he texts to talk, I am going to ask him to come when the other guy is gone because nothing good can happen when he shows up.


B53

B53, how much of the conflict is based around his daughter?

If it's isolated (but intense), it might help to separate that issue for now.

It sounds like there is some kind of two-way loyalty bind going on between them, and the wobbly reset you're working on was positively tornadoed by this latest incident.

So, on one hand, you two were going to try to get things to a better place and there's a lot to do (some of it logistics, like getting to a counselor)

AND

This thing with the daughter is an issue that will probably be the hardest one you deal with as a couple.

Do you feel you and he can separate these things out so they aren't entwined?

It seems to be he came back defensive knowing that he disappointed you and canceled himself first before you could do it.

Sometimes the best thing to do is exude an air of confidence to make it safe for him. Less is more. Easy breezy.

That's if you want to finish what you started (counseling), which doesn't mean you have to stay together, it simply means you get some sunshine on what's happening, for better or for worse.

Therapy often opens a door and we don't always know what will walk through.

L,

I think you have a good perspective on the situation. You seem to be able to put in words, my many paragraphs of rambling.

Ultimately, I guess it’s all about his daughter. She wants me gone and if not gone, under her control.  Everything was already set in place and along came the perfect storm. If you think about it, he was held captive and all forms of communication were taken away. Isolation is a powerful tool.  when the dog died he dutifully took his roll. She didn’t even have to be manipulative.

What is difficult to determine is his level of BPD. He can be so normal. He is not as scattered as I read about here. At the moment cheating is not a possibility. He has a moral code. That doesn’t mean he won’t immediately jump right  back on a dating site if this ends.

My worry is how long is it going to be before the nice guy returns. I feel venerable and since I reached out to him, he could use that to his advantage, if he decides to play games.I’m in a place we’re I not sure I can make wise decisions. I hope we make it counseling.
B53

Hey B53

I had some drive time yesterday and your post/situation was something that I considered for a good while.

One thing I've always appreciated about this site is people rarely "tell you exactly what to do", instead "they give helpful perspective".  (Just a few days ago poster suggested a "gottman perspective" to something I was embroiled in and I was like.."oh..well of course that seems so clear and different now...")

And...I didn't read those posts as "I was wrong"...instead I read them as "I didn't have the full story.."

I'm a big fan of axioms

1.  There will be backsliding (for whatever the issue is)

2.  BPD will affect all other relationships (especially close ones)

3.  Boundaries go both ways.


As I read your posts you were pleased with the "reset" and "new direction" of the relationship.  It appears to me there has been a "backslide".  I would encourage you to move past it quickly.  These things will get less and less over time.  I can't imagine lingering there will help the relationship.

I'm not "justifying" a backslide...yet it's also important to realize when one is perhaps coming.   (see axiom 2)  Add in grief and the intense emotions around that (do BPDish people do intense emotions well or productively?)     With the first 2 axioms in mind, I'm curious if you would do the evening differently where he didn't call..after he promised he would call.  

Boundaries go both ways:  What do I mean by that?  Just like I  have boundaries to keep people out of "my business"...those same boundaries insist that I "stay out of their business".


Personal example:  I have contempt for the way my in-laws raised and treat my wife.  "Contempt" is sometimes a polite way of expressing it...   In their family, I can't imagine they will ever do relationships in a way that begins to earn my approval...

That's not my deal to fix...and I realized I was much happier being blissfully ignorant about as much of it as I can be.  For years we didn't speak.  We've spoken more in the past several months that in the past several years.  

Nothing is fixed...nothing is reconciled...nothing is discussed (that matters).  Yet I can be polite and even though they may do offensive things..I don't have to be offended (that's my choice on how to respond...they don't get a vote)

Listen...I get the dynamic between father and daughter.   Seems "unhealthy" (again a polite way of expressing it).  I can't imagine...simply can't imagine...that you deciding to cede any of your brainspace to that relationship will help you or your relationship(s) in any way.

That doesn't make it right or ok or any of that.  

How do you feel after reading this?  Does asking you how you feel and what you think seem like vastly different questions to you?  

Best,

FF

BPD tends to drive all participants in the relationship hard into their respective roles. Persecutor, rescuer, victim are the three points on the karpman drama triangle (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0).

With the daughter, this is a classic conflict and she is playing for keeps. The roles will feel rigid, and there will be ultimatums.

As my dad likes to say, You can't win a pissing match with a skunk  :(

Does anything in the article on the karpman drama triangle resonate?

I like how you said above that "he was in a BPD episode."

You knew.

The next thing is to ask, "What can I do for myself to get off the triangle" and then figure out how to 1) redirect conflict, while trying to avoid 2) building resentment.

Sometimes it's easier to do 1) and harder to do 2).

And sometimes there is a lot of work that goes into getting into the headspace to manage both 1) and 2).

And it's not like "one time work".  I still have to "remember" or "see" that these dynamics are at play...or potentially at play. 

Best,

FF

FF,
This time we are on the same page.

When it comes to the not calling, that was something I needed to do for me. With my present need of connection, even when I would tell myself it wasn’t a big deal, I was still waiting for his calls . If I was in a better place emotionally, it wouldn’t have been an issue to begin with. Right now I’m just depleted. I can get past this BPD event. Emotions are high. I can justify the backslide if he later has some perspective. I’m not going to let him make me the villain.  I was thinking of course he is mad, because I said this or that but then I realized, that’s what I wrote here or journaled. The only thing I have said to him is, not to call me and that is what I need to do for me. I ended with a kissing heart emoji.  Didn’t even finish what I was saying when he was here, he just made up his own story in his head. I guess someone needed to be the bad guy and he picked me, of course.
 
The situation with his daughter has always been there, but it wasn’t a big deal. I believe in family time and I would be respectful of that anyway. I don’t think I was prepared for the long term. I was thinking , that she couldn’t possibly expect him to be there three weeks and not call me. I also didn’t think he would allow her to dictate what he can or can not do. Even in grieving, it shouldn’t mean that she can be disrespectful and mean. The problem is, that he never set boundaries and this wasn’t the time to start. She had complete control.He is not in denial, he just isn’t dealing with it. He has shared traits about her that he dislikes.

I don’t have a problem with her when we are together. She isn’t disrespectful to my face. She told her dad that I was good for him. It’s just she doesn’t want to share.

I’m not sure what you mean about boundaries going both ways. Do you think I crossed a boundary? I will respect boundaries, if they a reasonable. I am not going to give someone permission to be abusive just so there aren’t waves.

L, I will read the article and get back to you. I was actually searching for an article on that subject, but couldn’t find one. Thanks

Thank you both for your thoughts, they were helpful.

B53

Ff,
All relationships are hard work, it is just that BPD has a whole set of ever changing rules. I’m willing to learn, but not willing to sell my sole.

I think you should let them do their relationship..according to their rules.  Probably best to minimize the amount you listen and talk to your SO about it.

I used to think I could or should influence my wife's family.  Their ways of doing things are multi-generational...my efforts to influence that are likely wasted.  I can simply not participate and live my life..be polite when I see them.

And...not talk to my wife much about them.  When she is fired up about them..validate..give her a hug and move along.

Don't give their relationship very much brainspace...I bet you feel better quickly.

He says he will call...you want a connection and it's getting late...call him.

"Hey babe...it's getting late.  Just needed to hear your voice before I get some sleep.  Good night!" 

Then get a good nights sleep.

How is all of this sounding?

Best,

FF

What if you picked a set of rules..and stuck to them.  Maybe your SO can have 2 sets...or 10 million.  

What if?

Best,

FF

LL,

A few messages just went back and forth. He is still on a roll and I am being painted black. He ran off a list about everything that is was wrong with me. I started to reply back and defend myself, but i erased every thing and I replied "point taken." He turned that into a negative. I replied back "point taken meant "I was listening" I'm learning. He said I need ground rules. What I wanted to say is, "
rules are exactly what I want , but I want a counselor to help write them up. I think in time of deregulation, he will say that they are all the things I want. I also think the ground rules may end up bing projection.

It would be easy to not get involved in their behavior. I rather not be around it anyway. The problem that I see is that he knows something is wrong and wants out of her clutches. On one occasion he said he didn't like her. He was talking about her actions. He has said many times that she is starting to act like her mother.  I think he is battling that in her head. The other problem is that something is wrong there. The loving thing would be getting her help. She is going to have miserable life if she doesn't work through it.

I wonder if the couples counselor would work with them too. That's if we ever make it there. 

L,
The drama triangle did apply to this situation. I may go back and reread it. That is one reason I bowed out. I also felt that her rules ended up affecting me. I am not letting her control me.

I wonder how much of his behavior to me was a result of me setting a boundary. He was using me as the rescuer. He is mad that I left him with her.
thanks,

B53

FF,
I thought I would explain the NC thing better. First there where the feelings. He didn’t follow through with what he said, he didn’t stay connected when it was something that I really needed and the night that he didn’t call me when said, he stayed up until 1pm with his daughter, but because of her he couldn’t call. By not calling because of his daughter, it meant that in a way she was then controlling me too. I was also enabling her, by enable him to go a long with . Now you could say that the NC was setting a boundary and it actually was, but that was not the real reason. All that was happening was affecting me emotionally and reminders of the past. I couldn’t talk to him about it because he didn’t call to talk and I couldn’t call him. I was having trouble sleeping and eating. 

Have you ever heard of Schrödinger’s cat. “It is a thought experiment that illustrates an apparent paradox of quantum superposition”.
The short version is that you theoretically put a cat in a box. Until you actually open the box, the cat can either be dead or alive. By asking him not to call, then he could either be thinking about me or not thinking about me. I don’t know and I’m not waiting for a call to  either make me happy or disappoint me. I know what to expect, which is no call. It ultimately reduced the stress I was feeling. Does that make sense?

B53

So...trying to better understand your apparent lack of attempt to call him...or otherwise attempt a form of communication that night?

How do you know what he was doing/who he was with/how he made his decisions if you were not in communication?

I'm a bit worried about conveying the wrong "tone" in this text format...I'm kinda scratching my head a bit here.  My guess is my point of view is a bit off...trying to catch up.

Best,

FF

FF,
I couldn’t call him, his daughter had set down rules that I was not allowed to call or text him and he was not allowed to call or text me and it was expected of me to follow her rules. When he did call me it was whispering under the covers after she went to bed. The last thing I was going to do was challenge that, when there was the grieving issue..if I had broken these rules, she would have thrown a temper tantrum. My sister called him and he cut her short, not something he would usually do.

I would not have been upset that night if he hadn’t said he was going to call. I wouldn’t have waited it up.  I had already talked to him that day.  There is an issue of trust, which we had talked about when we were getting back together. If you tell me something then do it or don’t say it. He will say something at the moment to make me happy and then not follow through. Things I wouldn’t care about, but if he tells me then I expect it. It ‘s constant disappointment. Kind like, if you’re going to talk the talk, then walk the walk. I am not a demanding person, throw me a few crumbs and then I am happy, but stop filling me with expectations that are never followed through. He has a weekly FaceTime with his daughter and he will make up an excuse if he doesn’t feel like it. Like he is tired, not feeling well. This is a commitment he has made and he should keep, unless there is a really good reason. People are not something you blow off because it just doesn’t suit you at the moment.

I know what he was doing because he texted at 1am, which is around when SNL is over, which we watch together every Saturday. He was awake because he said sorry I didn’t call, goodnight. Since she required him to be where she wanted all the time, all he had was to play on his computer ( if she allowed that, don’t know) or watch tv. He couldn’t even leave to walk around the block.to call me. The orders where not to be in touch with me, period! He had to be with her all the time. She let him go to a park, which was the first time he left and the last time he called me. He is her b!tch, so to speak.

This is an article which explains the total dynamics of their relationship.

2. Power shift.

By spoiling her, he creates a monster. Daddy has a weak self-image, so pours all of himself into his daughter throughout her childhood, but soon finds, that as an adult, he loses control over her and she begins dictating and running his life. She selfishly applies rules to him she does not apply to herself. He is expected to be her doting assistant, where she can short-notice cancel plans on him, but he would be punished for doing this to her.

As adults, enmeshed fathers and daughters don’t fight or disagree, they break up. Their relationship has the dynamics of an unhealthy romantic relationship or marriage, where everything is based in intensity and fluctuates between love or hate. Whereas, a healthy marriage is one between two equals. A Daddy’s Girl has no experience with equality. For her, equality is experienced as a demotion, so will never allow Daddy to have another woman in his life. She will rage, abandon and tantrum until she manipulates her way back into being number one. Out of guilt, Daddy succumbs. She knows just how to prey upon his guilt. She does not see him as a separate person with needs and desires of his own. His only desire should be her.

She actually told him one time that he already had his life and he didn’t need to have anyone else.  When he asked if she expected him to be alone without anyone, she said yes. I am not making this up. She has been trying to find a way to get rid of me from the beginning and it didn’t work, because I just stayed out of the way. But this time she held all the cards because her dog died and he wouldn’t do anything to upset her. She held him hostage and took away his lifeline to the out side world. She watched to make sure he stayed in line.

B53

So...you guys were in communication but not voice communication.  Do I have that right?

Why did your sister call?

I think a more clear picture is forming (at least for me)...trying to nail down details here.


Best,

FF

FF,

Yes we texted some and he was unkind, so I didn't engage.

My sister called him because he has part ownership in a beach house we own. He is doing some of the renovations and she needed info. He has put a lot of work into this house and he really loves the place. Even if we are not together, we won’t have to see each other because we can go down at different times and my sister can handle the communication from there. Now his daughter is trying to get him to sell his part. She wants to get rid of anything that attaches him to someone other than her. I asked him if he was going to let his daughter make him get rid of everything he loves.

I can have a difficult time trying to express my feelings in writing and sometimes feel misunderstood. As you noticed, I don’t do well when I think someone implies that I am something that I am not. I have worked very hard to be the best partner I can be, with who ever I am with. If I am doing something that causes a negative affect on others, I want to know and I want to change it. It is easier for me to speak my piece here, because no one really knows me. I am actually a quiet, introverted person.

I have tried not to get involved with the situation with him and his daughter, it’s not my place, until it affects me. I have and will be hard on him now, because he is trying to make me the bad guy and I have said and done very little. Everybody looks at things from a different perspective. I feel his daughter has a serious problem and maybe the few terrible weeks, will be a wakeup call for him. It may look like I am being unkind, but actually I’m being caring and loving. What is going on is going to affect her future. If this continues they both will have a difficult life ahead and that can be helped. This is the same concept as your child being a drug addict. Parents often give their children money or enable them to continue their addiction, thinking it is better than having them on the street. Unfortunately, it never works. Ask anyone who treats addicts, they need to hit rock bottom before they get serious about getting help. When parent’s enable their children, they are doing it to make themselves feel better, not what is best for their children.  This is similar, there is no happy future ahead if this isn’t addressed. It can continue if he wants, but I will not be a part of it. I will give him my thoughts if he asks and I will support him through the process if he wants. He thanks me all the time for figuring out that he has BPD and encouraging him to get help. He is a lot happier and his life is better and hopefully it will continue to head in that direction. His relationship with his daughter is better also, now it is time to help her. It is said that you can’t change what you don’t acknowledge. If I have to be the bad guy to make something happen, then I willing to and it will be easier on him if he wants me by his side for support. I care a lot about her and in the other areas of her life, she is impressive. She is going to accomplish a lot in her professional field. 

I guess I have said all that needs to be said about his daughter, it is up to him and I will move on, if that is what he wishes.

Thank you so much for investing time to help me through this. I wish I could do the same for you, but I have read your posts and am not sure that I can add anything of value, but know that I am quietly supporting you.

B53

This is so obvious and your partner is very lucky to have you in his life.


A lot of the work I continue to do is to better understand the drama triangle.  (Please don't take anything I post to suggest "I got this...", I certainly have more work to do)
 
 Please spend a lot of time reading and attempting to apply these principles (https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle)

I've lost count of the times I've read the article above.  I would encourage you to be deliberate about reading it a couple of times today.  Then try to take small pieces of the situation with you, pwBPD's daughter and your pwBPD and see what role each of the "might" be playing.

Try it on...see if it fits.  Then move them around...can it fit in other ways.

Step 1 is to "see it". 

Let's come back later and work on "what to do or not do about it".

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

Me too  :(

I've tried to apply it to the specifics of the drama with my adult step daughter and needed a lot of micro-help from friends here because it feels and seems more complex when you're in it. 

Sometimes you have to experiment to see what works, often you have to try that thing a few times to really know. It helps to focus on one thing that tends to be a pattern.

Thanks,
Reading  about the triangle, made things very clear. I feel like with out even knowing it, I realized that it existed. I felt like she was driving the bus and I wanted off. I tend to be one of those people (INFJ)that takes on the tone of a room or situation and knows when something isn’t right, but I can’t always put my finger on what is wrong. Other than with his daughter there  aren’t any three people situations to complete the triangle and luckily she lives in Florida. I will study it more.

 I haven’t heard from him and he hasn’t said anything about picking up his stuff. Maybe it is over, who knows.

Do you believe in past lives? I’m skeptical, but lean more to the believing side. These relationships match up well with karmic relationships. Not to be confused with soulmates. Karmic relationships are addictive and there is a lot of drama and difficult to break away from.  If you have any free time, check it out, it’s interesting.

B53

So...can you sketch out who was playing what role?

What would the article suggest that you have done?  Or perhaps what do you wish you could have done differently?

Best,

FF

Yes, his daughter was the persecutor, he is Always the victim and I am am always the rescuer.

I still would not have done anything differently. What he did triggered feelings in me that took me to a place in my past. Maybe it was PTSD, I don’t know. I wasn’t eating and I wasn’t sleeping. I can’t bring myself to eat when I’m upset. Since last October, I have lost 10lbs. I am 5’4” and now weigh 110lbs. I do have small bones, so I don’t look anorexic, but I look very thin. I can afford to lose anymore. I couldn’t reach out to him, I had to do something. I was use to being alone without him, when we were not together. Being alone was more comforting then being back it a nightmare from the past. Telling him not to call released my anxiety. I knew I wouldn’t be able to handle him letting me down again. I think all that happened in the fall took a toll on me. I’m depleted. Many people here know what its like to have their BP just walk away, out of the blue. No closer.

The situation with him and his daughter, they created and I was dragged in and never wanted to be there in the first places. I shouldn’t have to be involved in someone else’s craziness. The situation is creepy. I really don’t want to be around it. Especially when we have only been back together for a month. If we had been back together for several months things might have been different. In the past I was always waiting for the other shoe to drop. That doesn’t go away in a month and actually it did drop so to speak.
I don’t know, am I missing something? Is there a different perspective I’m not seeing? I feel like I am not understanding your questions.

It would have been worse if I didn’t have this forum.

B53

OK...uggg, I'm going to give some "suggested" perspectives.  Drama triangle analysis is NOT a hard science



So..."for the most part" I think you were right.

When her dog died the daughter was the?  When she "had to have" him all to herself she was the?

He was the?

And they were trying to cast you in the role of?

note:  From the story as I recall...I don't think you acted in the role they tried to get you to act in.  (perhaps towards the end this shifted ?  maybe)



This is ok to think for now.  As you try on different perspectives, my hope is that you will realize that "if I had done this...abc is likely outcome" or if I did this "xyz.." 

Once you realize the drama triangle you want to be "deliberate" about avoiding "hanging out" in certain roles.  Or you might realize you are more comfortable in a certain role.

Sometimes thinking you "wouldn't do anything different" or "couldn't do anything different" or "if he had  abc, then this would be all better"...well...sometimes this might indicate a level of comfort or desire to be in the "victim" status.    (can you see this as a general statement?)


 

Remind me again why you couldn't reach out to him?  What was preventing that?



Remind me again where/when this happened?  Was it on the night he was supposed to call?




I agree...they created it..right?  It was there long before you..right?

What choices did you have here?  What was imposed on you?




Just keep working through it.  Read the article again..and again.  Then go for long walks.  Be deliberate about thinking about other things. 

Then...sit down with a clear head, your favorite beverage and read over what you have posted.  Try to read it as if it was me or some other person that had written it.

Hmmm...that person would seem to like to think that they were (insert role of drama triangle) in this situation.

Remember...see it first, then figure out what to do.

We've got you on this!

Best,

FF

How will you respond if he reaches out?

It sounds like you are willing to let things go and move on from the relationship ... ?

FF,
his daughter wouldn’t let us have any communication between us. I still wouldn’t do anything differently. I was feeling such anxiety that I couldn’t eat and I was starving myself. I did not have the wherewithal to to learn a new technique and apply it. I was also absorbing all the emotions. There wasn’t an option, I had get out from under it all. My only purpose in this threesome was rescuer and it was sucking the life out me. He was expecting me to give him something, I couldn’t even give myself. Im sure the triangle is very effective  when you apply it. I wasn’t in a place to learn anything. You know what it’s like, it’s hard to constantly be giving and the reward is to be told you’re the problem.

We only started to reunite in January and it got off to a rocky start. We didn’t actually start to see each other until the end of the month. We have spent about 15 days together in almost five months. And many of those days were not full days. I haven’t seen his daughter since August. We just barely started reconnecting. I was just learning who this new person was. I have no idea how much self control he has. Under the circumstances I feel like this was a heavy burden to expect me to be part of. This would be a challenge to a strong relationship. Just thinking about what was going on makes me feel sick to my stomach. I will listen, but I am not going to be dragged into this. This isn’t my problem. I have three kids of my own and my own crazy FOO to deal with.

To be honest, my instinct is that it’s over. I haven’t seen him and the only communication he has sent are a few very nasty texts. I think he on BPD binge. I am being blamed for what he went through. He has zero friends, he talks to oldest sister a little, but she is dealing FOO herself. I have already reached out to him and it didn’t go well. I am the only one he has and he is pushing me away. I am not going to reach out to him again, because when he is like this he is scary.

LL

If he does come back I think I will initiate going for a walk, maybe get something to eat and an watch a movie and snuggle. Keep it light, listen if he wants to talk. Not get into any serious conversation. I would like to put all this behind us.

My T hasn’t said it, but by the questions she asks, I think she thinks I need to walk away. She is making me look at what I am getting out of this relationship. What about it brings me happiness. I say that he is never there for me and she asked why I want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t give back. I know that if I was being my own best friend, my advice would be to walk away. I think I’m getting close to that point but I not quite there. He was down there for three weeks and I have seen him for about fifteen minutes , when he broke up with me. So I have seen him for 15 minutes in a month.

I am feel so defeated.

Thanks
B53

 :hug: :hug: :hug:

There is no rush to work through all of this...respond when you feel up to it.

How did she gain control over both of your communications devices (I'm assuming phones...but perhaps other devices as well..)

Best,

FF

FF,

She didn't actually take his phone , but they were in a small two room apartment, where she could see and hear everything he did. I'm guessing she was with him every moment, because he would have taken a walk and called me if he could.
 
I did study the triangle more. I still believe I did the right thing. First put on your face mask, before you start helping others. Yes, I could have stayed in there and moved to the middle. But there is also the option of not participating at all. Even though this was not the reason why I made the decision, my T pointed out that I set a boundary.


 I was listening to Berne Brown this morning and she gave me some clarity about the part of this issue that I have been struggling with. I have been questioning whether I was being selfish or unempathic because of the NC. I know he was going through a hard time and should that not give him a pass? Was I wrong to ask him not to call?


Berne said that to be trusted you need to be reliable and that reliability is like a scale.  A reliable scale, is a scale that if you got on it a 100 times, it will say the same thing every time. Reliability is when you do what you say you are going to do, over and over and over again. You can not gain or earn trust, if you do it just once, because that is not the definition of trust. We need to be clear on our limitations, so we don’t take on so much, that we don’t deliver on our commitments. She referenced John Gottman. He said that trust was built in the smallest of moments and he calls them sliding door moments. It references the movie Sliding Doors. Sliding door moments are the times when there is the opportunity to build trust or the opportunity for betrayal.  Betrayal is when you choose not to connect when the opportunity is there.

In our efforts to get back together, I have been spilling my heart out and telling him what I need in this relationship for me to be happy and what has been missing in the past.  I took a gamble to step out of a place where I had progressed in my grieving and put myself back into harms way. The two big issues have been trust and connection. When he is doing anything else, then I become an afterthought. If he is bored, I get a call, but if he is busy or with someone else, I’ll get the rushed call or none at all. He came up with the solution, that if he wasn’t there he would call me every night. He came up with this solution, not me.

Berne told a story that Gottman had shared with her. He was reading a good book and he was near the end.  He wanted to brush his teeth and do what he needed to do, so that he could get in bed and totally enjoy reading the rest of the book. When he went into the bathroom his wife was brushing her hair and it was obvious that she was upset. He said that this was a sliding door moment. He could pretend he didn’t notice her and get back in bed and finish his book or tend to her. He chose to take the brush out of her hand and brush her hair and asked her what was wrong.

When my BP is away from me, At the beginning he calls, tells me what is going on and shares with me. I feel part of his life. In a short amount of time, the calls slow done and then come whenever or not at all. You begin to feel like an afterthought, he calls when it suits his purpose.

When he drove down to Florida, I was on the phone with him three separate times, each call lasting two or three hours to make the drive easier and for the first week I got a call daily. A week later came the promise of a call that didn’t come, and two days in a row, no calls, which started the dominos, to fall, which in turn triggered the flashback to heartache and broken promises of the past.

The question is, was he dealing with so much there and it was so stressful that he was unable to call?

These are the things I did know, The night he didn’t call he stayed up until 1am, because that is when the text came, that he was going to bed. The next night he didn’t call, I got a text about the show he was watching about Bruce Springsteen, nothing more and the next night nothing.  Every morning when we are not together we would text each other good morning, usually he sends the first one, because he is up first. That morning no text, so I send the first text. A few hours later I get a text of excuses, how busy work is, blah, blah, blah. Next day nothing. Sometimes the good morning is just GM.  So up until 2pm, his fingers couldn’t press two letters?  Then after two days of no calling, I get this text about how bad he was feeling and the headache he had, all the excuses that I had heard so many other times. I didn’t respond to his boat load of excuses. When he realized that I wasn’t available for him on his schedule, then things changed. At 3pm, I get a text, “Just checking in, how are you doing “ Interesting. He hadn’t checked in since he had been there to ask how I was doing. Communication came after 11pm. He suddenly was allowed to text in the afternoon. What about no texting and calls? Things never seem to add up.That’s when I said that I was having a difficult time and it wasn’t the time or place to discuss it and to focus on taking care of himself and his daughter. Call me when he gets home. It could wait. Sent a love emoji. I was kind

So recap. He can stay up until 1am.  Not miss work all day, take care of his daughter and even though sick, he can stay up and watch Bruce. Now, why should I believe him. He said he would call when he didn’t and the first week we were back together, I witnessed him making up an excuse, as to why he couldn’t do the weekly Facetime with his daughter, so he could be with me. As long as the person isn’t there to see for themselves, the excuses hold true because no one can prove otherwise.

I have spoken before of the three weeks I had to go to my daughter’s to help her take care of her kids because she was having panic attacks. Never missed a night talking to him and when I got back, I got a long silent BP episode.

So was I really being selfish? If this was a onetime occurrence, then yes, I would say I believe he was really going through a hard time and let it go. The night that he didn’t call, I had already let that go. Still believing in him but it kept going down the familiar path and that’s when I changed. He had a sliding door moment to either build trust or betrayal. You either choose to read the book or comb your wife’s hair.

Thoughts?

B53

I'm also interested in your sliding door moment...

I do agree it would be interesting to get his perspective on "what he saw" through the sliding door that night, sadly that perspective doesn't appear to be knowable at the moment.

Best,

FF

FF,
I don’t think it was a sliding door moment for him. He did what he wanted, what he always does. It would be a huge step if he would be able to view things that way.

I have been listening to John Gottman. I think you or someone else on this site has mentioned him. His formula for a good relationship is doomed fo a BPD. Conflict resolution is a main factor.

B53

I just got back and forth emails from my BP. I don't know what happened at his daughter's, but he is a mess.

While we were apart he let his hair grow in the back all one length. He wears a ball cap all the time, inside. His hair is thin on top and it's curly. He looks like Doc in back in the future. I don't like it and have said that I like it the other way. On the phone he said he was going to ask his daughter to cut it. We were being upbeat and laughing. He said that I told him, that I didn't find him attractive. I'm fairly sure that I didn't say that. If I did say anything close, I would probably say that I think he is more attractive the other way. This is the same guy that didn't like my old glasses and told me often. He said they made me look old. Just what every woman wants to hear. I laughed it off. He also wants me to wear my hair long. I got new glasses and have kept my hair long. If I got my hair cut short, he would freak.

Even though I didn't like it, I didn't make it an issue. It's superficial and it is his hair, he can wear it any way he wants.

So he was giving me the silent treatment  when he was there. It wasn't my imagination. It felt like one of his old games, but I thought he had an handle on it. He says he wasn't BPD. When he came home he was in a full blown episode. He is denying both, but he is not being nice. I'm afraid he isn't coming out of it any time soon.

It think since I reached out to him, I think he sees that as a validation that what he says is right and I am wrong. He told me that I had serious issues, that I needed  help with and he would support me while I get help. I asked him to give me a list of my issues, I see my therapist tomorrow. He is acting like he is all knowing about his therapy and I have the mental issues. Which could be correct, because I have been living with him.

I guess if he stays mad at me, he won't have to look at the situation with him and his daughter. This seems different from the past. he is acting more ticked off then usual. I guess I will ride it out. I'm so tired of this!

B53

Can you share some of the emails on here? 

I'm wondering if there was a reason...a healthy reason, for you to respond and go back and forth.

You are wise to consider what you may or may not be validating.  Have you heard the term "validating the invalid"? 

Can you pause for a moment?  How did you feel about things (I'll let you pick what "things") before the emails? 

After?

 :hug: :hug: :hug:

We are in your corner!

Best,

FF

FF,
I could share the emails, but I thinking at the moment, what’s the point. I know I said things that I shouldn’t, I wanted to justify why I told him not to call. At least if it was over he should know why I did what I did. I was hurt because I was getting all this hate, when he came home and I didn’t know why. I really didn’t think BPD was involved. If I had known that this was really about the comment, I may or may not have made about his hair, my response would have been entirely different.  This was a classic, BPD, I say something and he pulls words out, twists them as a major attack on him and then the silent treatment. I wouldn’t have engaged at all if I knew what it was really about. My gut told me that I said something and he was angry, but I was thinking it was more about being brushed off and not being important, which is a different issue. There is no use analyzing a response that was about the wrong issue. I still think it’s about focusing anger towards me so he doesn’t have to look at the issue with his daughter.
I’m going to move on, when he comes out of his BPD  episode, we can talk.

B53

Do you feel up to exploring this more?

Best,

FF

FF,
Not really, I already know the errors of my ways. I was caught up in hurt feelings and the craziness of a BPD. I think most of the damage was to myself, he is in BP world and it wouldn’t matter what I said, good or bad he will say the opposite and if what I say is nice, he will make it sound bad.  I’m being painted black.

 I really like my therapist, she doesn’t, let me get away with anything and gave me insight about me. I think there is a chance  get back to the me, before BPD.

I told him that if I had known this was about hair, I wouldn’t have written any of the emails. I wouldn’t have wasted my time.  He responded, that he is sorry that he is a waste of time. Just one email earlier, he criticized that I wrote them at all.

I’m going to let it go, give him his space. Regroup. He hasn’t
called me anyway.

B53

Do you realize how invalidating this is?

 The Power of Invalidation (https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating)

Best,

FF

FF,
Yes, I guess it was.
When he got home, I tried to have a talk with him. He came in hostile. I ask him if he would sit next to me when we talked and he threw himself down on the couch. I didn’t get more that six words out, before he broke up with me. Even after that reaction, I apologize for not being supportive. I told him that I would be kind and empathetic. It was like, well maybe I’ll except your apology and then I don’t hear from him. The first email, I sent was about our beach house. Then there was the mean text and I didn’t engage. Then I figured, are we broken up or not? I figured that if we were over, I at least, I wanted to tell, my part of why I asked him not to call. EVERY single communication, I asked him why was he so mad at me. His last response was gaslighting, painting me as this mentally ill horrible person. Then I find out that he was giving me the silent treatment before I asked him not to call and it had to do with what I thought was a friendly conversation. Then he tells me that during the friendly conversation, that I said something mean about his hair. I may or may not have said something, but the tone of the conversation was nice and friendly. I didn’t go after him in a mean way.I don’t even remember much about the conversation other than he said he was going to let his daughter cut his hair.  I was happy about it, don’t remember what I said after that. This is the same guy who told me repeatedly how much he didn’t like my old glasses, they made me look old. All this time I’m trying to patch up a situation that never existed.

He was belittling me, saying that I wasn’t giving him credit for all the progress he has made with his BPD. Which was strange too, because I’ve never made a comment about that. My focus was on the trust and him blowing me off, I have no idea if that is even connected to BPD or just being self absorbed. The only thing I had done up to this point was ask him not to call me and try to talk to him when he got home. Not one unkind word was expressed by me at that point. This whole time this is about twisting around something I said and giving me the silent treatment and if I had not asked him to stop calling, this most likely was going to continue, because as we we all know, if we tick off a BPD, watch out.
I know this is a personality disorder, but how much he11, do I go through before I say enough. This whole time I’m trying to get him to work it out. If I had known this was about a hair cut the whole time, I wouldn’t have engaged at all. What normal person acts like this? If he didn’t like what I said, then tell me and I will apologize for hurting his feelings. I know , he is not a normal person. I’m just so tired!
 Why do I always have to do the right thing, is there any accountability for his actions? If I’m such a horrible person for invalidating him, then please shot me and put me out of my misery.

He wants to break up, I wish him well! Yes, I’m pissed off.

B53

Hey... :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:.  You have lots of reasons to be mad at him.  It's perfectly valid and appropriate for you to be mad at him.

My hope is that you can find time to relax and separate several issues.

1.  Should you be mad at him.

2.  How you express your anger.

3.  How you respond to ridiculous...preposterous...things that he says.

Please be extra kind to yourself today!

Best,

FF

FF,

Sometimes it is so hard to accept that what he is doing isn’t calculated. Why wouldn’t he tell me what I did? Was he enjoying all the tap dancing I was doing. I may have said things, I shouldn’t but my goal was to get back together and open communication. Some of the things he was slamming me for was so hypocritical. There is a lot accusations that I haven’t shared. It is almost like he is telling me how awful I am as he is doing the very thing as he is writing.

Should I be mad, no, in truth, I feel sorry for him. He has someone here that would give him the world, if he could find a way to stop messing with me. What is so hard about this disorder is how cruel they can be to the person that love them the most.

I expressed my anger here and run it through my head, until I get it out. The final outcome will be extreme sadness.
I will respond by not engaging. I feel no need to send emails. This is so ridiculous that, I have no need to explain myself.

He said he might have made a mistake wanting to get back with me. The sad thing is that I can work on myself and move on and possibly find love. He is doomed to keep repeating this cycle and at times of clarity have to feel the shame and guilt of hurting others. What a horrible way to have to live.

I think people have to live this to believe it. How can so many people have this disorder and all act similar versions of the same thing. It just doesn’t make sense.

Thanks for the validation. I want something that is most likely too far out of reach and I not sure I have enough resolve to handle this much longer. The only thing that will make be continue is a couples counselor.

B53

Most likely he has no idea.  Seriously..his emotions just happen to him, then he figures out something to blame later...that isn't his fault.

Best,

FF

FF,
I’m sure some emotions are like that, but I believe he knew, because everything was find, talking every day and I though the talk at the park was fun and light, that is why I was shock when he didn’t call. I went back over the events to try and understand, he later told me on our last text yesterday ,” you thought the talk at the park was nice, but it wasn’t and he went on to tell me all the terrible things I said”. He said that I told him that I was no longer attracted to him. Why would I  say that. I think the night we had before he left, would say differently. Then no call Saturday, quick brushed me off Monday and then nothing two days straight, he stopped texting morning hello and good night. That is pretty drastic a reaction, for him to just forget about it. The way he wrote it in his email had a pretty strong emotional feeling beside it. It is exactly how he does his BPD episodes. The reason I was so upset was because it was how he always treated me when he got that way. It is horrible to have someone treat you like that and I never have  any idea what I did. Remember I kept saying this was all to familiar pain. That’s why I was falling apart. It just didn’t make sense to me because I knew nothing about what he said happen. I thought he was just brushing me off because, he does that too and I thought he had a handle on the getting mad over nothing thing. He came home pissed and hostile. The only thing I could think of, he was angry because I asked him to stop calling, but if that was true, why wouldn’t he let me explain. I said it wasn’t about him, it was something I needed to do for me. I was real nice when I asked him not to call. I sent him an I love you kiss. If he didn’t like the reason, he needed to listen to it first. He has never forgotten anything that he has accused me of doing to him. He went home for a week because he said I gave him a look. Of course I had no idea what I did. I don’t know what look he was talking about. It was when I first woke up. It was probably an I have to go to the bathroom look. If he thinks you have done him wrong, he doesn’t forget it and you will pay.

When he is not BPD, he is the nicest man. Attentive, affectionate and fun to be around. Then he turns into an abusive monsters and doesn’t stop until you are practically cowering.  It is a predictable sequence of events, starting with the silent treatment.

B53

I do get what you are saying...yet I would encourage you to not "separate them".  It's all him.

I would encourage you to sleep on it...and sort out next steps for you in the morning. 

Best,

FF

Part of being in a BPD relationship is radical acceptance (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=89910.msg604907#msg604907).

It isn't easy and it isn't for everyone.

I may have missed whether you did any DBT?

Radical acceptance originated with Marsha Lineman who is herself dx'd with BPD, and who developed DBT.

FF,

After I found out it was about the hair, it was a total turn around for me, because I know for a fact that it wasn’t about me. Even though I felt that asking him not to call was a choice I needed to make, I did feel a small amount of guilt for not being there for him. Oddly enough, if I had known it was one of the treat me mean and not tell me why scenarios, that’s exactly the boundary I would have set. I can’t imagine what state I would be in, if I had continued with the cat and mouse game for three weeks, never knowing why. I would be a basket case.

I feel for him and I know he can’t help it. It must be horrible to have your life taken over by an unstable personality and not be able brake The nice guy returns and has to deal with the shame and guilt for what that other personality did. But eventually, the one on the receiving end of it is going to crack. I have a braking point.

I received an email last night from him and even thought it didn’t say much, it felt like something had lifted. He asked me if I remembered the story he told me about identifying a persistent feeling. I remember one, but it wasn’t a very nice story, but I wasn’t going to jump to a conclusion until I knew where he was going with it. I would not have considered his answer as a story, so I couldn’t fill in the blank anyway. To me it was more like baring your soul.

My answer was

If it is a story to help be understand you better and reconnect, then I would love to hear it. If it is another story to place me in the light as a horrible person and make me feel shame and guilt, I will pass.     
His answer was fear.

I just got a text while I am writing this, asking if I will ever forgive him. My answer was “I always do.”

I feel that I had participated in some of this crazzines and need to own my part.

LNL,

I know there is a need for radical expectance, but to come from a FOO and marriage where I was verbally abused, this is a heavy challenge. I really don't think I can take much more. Like I keep saying, I am holding out for the couples therapist to led me in the right direction. I haven't done DBT, but my new therapist does use it during our sessions. So far I love my therapist. She is tough on me, but this is what I need. I have already learned a few valuable tidbits. They may not be what I wanted to hear,  but what I needed to hear to change.
 
B53

Can you share exactly what his answer was?

How did you see your answer moving  the relationship to a better place? 

Best,

FF

It's awful that you were verbally abused, B53. You didn't deserve to be treated like that. I know well how it feels to be on the receiving end of verbal abuse and the scars run deep.

Radical acceptance as I understand it does not mean tolerating abusive behaviors.

For me, it's more about accepting that this behavior exists in the relationship. Once I accept it, I can change how I deal with it.

I used to make a lot of excuses for my n/BPDx husband, which made it harder for me to see clearly what was happening.

I separated out "drunk" n/BPDx from his sober self, when in fact he was/is all of those things.

You may be further along than I was and can accept that your BF is all the selves he has, and that a condition of having him in your life is knowing that he is unstable.

I was a slow learner  :(

FF
His answer was
It is fear

LNL

You must of come a long way since then, because you seem to pull out the main points from all my rambling.

I had a double major in college. Education and psychology. I have always had a great interest in how people work. Change your approach and that changes the reaction. It’s like if you ask a question you get an answer, if you ask a different question, then you have to change your answer because the old answer doesn’t work. I just don’t have the tools and I think I could understand the approach better, coming from another person.

I think some  of the things I write may come  across as harsh. Often the things I say here is never followed through with, some are. When I am upset the first place I go is here because the people here have lived it. I’m usually still reeling from what has happened.

My whole being charged when I found out it was about hair. It is hard to get wrapped up into something that is so ridiculous. But the other type of situation is so unclear. His other personality knows all my buttons and will hit below the belt.There are so many gray areas and I struggle to some extent, with black and white thinking too. I give him permission to point out if I use the words always or never.  Trying to break that habit.

I am slow in processing what I’m reading and I need time for it to sink in.

Thank you both for putting in the time to help me, I really appreciate it.

B

I would encourage you to slightly change some language.

There is the possibility this is about hair.

There is a possibility that hair is being offered as a rabbit trail/diversion.

There is a possibility that it's more emotionally ok to talk about hair as an issue, than other matters.

There is a possibility that the answer of what it was about was given without much introspection.

Ultimately...how will you know?  Or will you know?

Therefore...?

Best,

FF

FF,

Not sure and may never know. When we get back to seeing each other, I might  get a sense. He is also very chatty and sometimes he open's up about stuff.

I feel it's only about the hair because of the time table and this is exactly the kind of stuff that sets him off. There is no rhyme or reason for this kind of episode.

To be honest, I don't want to even talk about it, I want to forget it ever happened. This one was really painful. I'm not sure why it sticks out more than any others. I'm so depleted.

Thanks for helping me through.

B

Reflect on what you said here...you are so close to getting it.

Let me put it this way.  The hair was the trigger...can we agree on that?

Next time it will be his pants.  Then you called when you should have emailed..

The list will go on.

Please don't focus on the trigger...that is a waste of energy and will cause you endless frustration.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

FF,
I sent him a truce, waved the white flag and he still came back swinging. I’m letting go, handing it over to my higher power. Everything I have done for this situation has been wrong. I haven’t made it better, I’ve made it worse . I don’t want to be this person. I should be better than this. The only person I can change is me. When your on the bottom, the only place to go is up.

B53

Little word changes...can actually be massive changes.

Instead of right and wrong...

Ugg...I know I could have done that better...

For "most" people, thinking about good and bad/right and wrong is not that big of a deal...however...you are around a pwBPD.  Dichotomous thinking is massive for them in a bad way...so lead by example..and stay away from it.

Best,

FF

FF,

I didn’t use the words right or Wrong to him.  Even when I’m using, what to me, are the kindest words I can think of, he twists them into something mean. He has hardly said five kind words in a month. He acts like he hates me. I don’t know if we can ever recover from this. It feels hopeless. It’s so sad that when you’re having the best time and out of the blue, it turns ugly. When he writes, it sounds like he’s done, but he doesn’t actually say it. I can’t see a future here.

WYSIWYG

I was a bit of a nerd who got excited building my own computers back in the 1980s.  My first was an Atari 800 and I had a piece of code published in one of those early magazines.  I even wrote my own version of Mastermind in Atari Basic, tough since that was before floppy disks and most of my cassette tapes failed on playback.  IBM came out with the PC but that was over $3000.  I would buy Atari ST computers at auction, upgrade their memory from 512KB to 1024KB and sell them for a small profit.  (By comparison today's 16GB computer memory would be 16,000,000KB.)  That was about the time I learned about WYSIWYG.  What is it? It was the paradigm shift from blocky text and numbers on the screen to easier to view typeset words, images and graphics.

As a person who started with blocky text it was quite hard for me to transition to the graphical interfaces.

WYSIWYG ... What you see is what you get.

Can you see that your life's efforts are focused on molding and bending yourself to please someone who evidently does not appreciate all do for him and because of him?

Your SO can be compared to "WYSIWYG".  What you see is what you get.

I know my analogy is a bit sketchy, someone else could surely frame it better.  Your SO is stuck in a different world than you.  He's in a TEXT world whereas most of us are in more expansive GRAPHICS worlds.

But... Seriously, do you want to live the rest of your life struggling to please or mollify a person who lives in his own world where perceptions are paramount and easily manipulated by his own grown disordered daughter?  Is there realistic hope that his efforts at personal therapy will make a sufficiently large transformation for the better?

Also good to use that in determining whether or not to continue a relationship.

If anyone decides on a relationship with a pwBPD based on the belief that someday this person can be the partner they need...probably not a good idea to go down that path..

If a person decides to continue a relationship with a pwBPD based on what they see and get right now out of the relationship...then it's actually likely that the relationship will improve and both partners will be more satisfied.

Weird the way that works.

Best,

FF

Thanks,
He broke up with me, this time will be the last. I feel like I could have done better, by him, but then it didn't seem like anything I did, nice or not seemed to matter. He came back angry and it never seemed to go away. I feel some guilt, but probably because he always blamed me for everything and this time was no different. What I experienced in this relationship, will follow him to the next and I have a lot of work to do, so it doesn't follow me. It will be nice to not have drama all the time.

ForeverDad, you are right , it is not realistic to hope anything will get better. In my head I knew it, but my heart is a lot slower at accepting the truth. If I saw someone else in my situation, I would wonder why they found it acceptable to give so much and get so little back.

FF, thanks for hanging in there with me. There is so much to learn, to live in the world of BPD. I was so unprepared. Hopefully I won't have a need for those skills in the future.

Do you think that I have learned enough not to find myself in another BPD relationship again? They seem so normal in the beginning.

I guess this post has come to an end.

Thanks all,
B53

I think I am writing this post for me, a way of reflecting back over the last months.
I had time to sleep on it and think things through. I may have written some things that I shouldn’t and even though it was counterproductive, I was trying to explain myself so he would see that what I did, wasn’t done, to be unkind to him. I said many things that were kind and asked for peace between us. I may have gone about it the wrong way and it didn’t work, but  I was trying to make things better. In all that time, his responses where hateful. In a whole month he said about ten words that you could consider barely nice and everything else was nasty. I know he was in a BPD episode, so I tried not to take it to heart. It finally looked like it was going in a better direction. All of a sudden there was a turnaround. He said he was sorry and asked for my forgiveness. I accepted his forgiveness and told him that he was not all to blame, that I contributed to the situation. It almost seemed like when I took ownership of my part, then it became all my fault. Black or white thinking. It was all me or all him. He sent me a text asking what I felt I had done wrong. I told him and said that I just want to put this all behind us, can’t we admit that we both had something to do with it. I don’t want to talk about it anymore. He said so what was my part of the mess? He wasn’t going to drop it, so I told him what I thought his contribution was. Even as I’m writing it, I’m saying, what I think may not be correct, this is only my perspective, but none of this is important anymore. The next day, I get an email again saying how horrible a person I was, how I never let anything go, on and on. It was like I sent this out of the blue. I then asked for a truce, waved the white flag. His response was attacking and he told me all that was wrong with me, once again. I said that if I have done these things then I need to work on myself as a person and strive to be better. Then it came to me, he didn’t remember that he asked me to tell him , his part.
So, I sent him an email, with a copy of what he asked. I said that I wouldn’t have written it at all, but that he wanted it.
He said it was just a plan to see if I would really drop it and let things go. I still think he was in different reality and didn’t remember writing it. He when on to tell me more horrible things about me and  like so many other times, said it was over.
I told him that I’m sorry I let him down and if he felt that way, then I had failed him. I will continue to work with my therapist to look into what I need to change to make myself a better person. I hope he has a wonderful life and I only wish him a future of joy and happiness.

So my point is this, I may have done things wrong, but I have spent two and a half years with him and he has continuously put me down and has said things that no one should ever say to another human being. I have forgiven him and have tried to make this relationship as good as I could under the circumstances. I have endured a lot because of this disorder. Why should I feel guilty about anything? This is a horrendous mental illness that destroys everything and no one deserves the fallout. I feel sad at the moment, but there is nothing more I can offer without loosing who I am as a person. I saw a Ted talk about breakups. The guy said to make a list of all the bad times, so when you start to focus on all the good times and wonder if you did the right thing or if you could have done better, the list will be a reminder of why you’re not together.

Three months ago I made the decision to give this another try. I would be much further along, if I had not decided to go back. I am not really sorry I did. I needed to know if it was possible to make it work. I now know that it was not and I can go on with my life, knowing I did the right thing.
I will be following a long reading all the stories here and hopefully have a positive word to add every now and then and welcome the new people.
If you got this far, thanks for all your help and thanks for listening.

B53

Thanks for being so open.  I would encourage you to take some of these posts to your therapist and explore if any of this might be useful in the therapist's work with you.



I'd be curious to know how the conversation with your therapist goes about this subject.

It's unlikely there is "one" reason why you made the decision to stay.  Our decisions are usually much more complex that "one reason".



I've mentioned before about the words we use...my impression was you interpreted that as the words you use with pwBPD (and that is important).

Clarity:  I hope you can work with your therapist to explore how you "talk to yourself".  Words like "right and wrong"  "guilty" often raise the possibility that a person isn't being very kind to themselves.

Please don't experience this as criticism...please do experience this as coaching advice that will likely result more fulfilling relationships "across the board" (not just with a pwBPD)

How does this apply to pwBPD?  Well...they seem to be experts and figuring out what is "not authentic"...fake..contrived...  

So if you talk to yourself one way and everyone else the same way and then when you speak with them..it's completely different.  They will know something is off

However...if your normal way of interacting is the same way you deal with them...most likely it will have the desire effect.

I hope you can stick around.  Sure..perhaps you feel more comfortable on a different board as you sort out the status of your relationship...we can help guide you.

Last for now:  I'd love to hear more about how you were extra kind to yourself today.  Please share..

Best,

FF

FF,
I understand what you are telling me and your right. I use to have great self esteem, I was confident and happy and didn’t need a relationship to complete me. That’s what I mean, that I am no longer the person I use to be. That other person wouldn’t have let anyone talk to me like he has. I think in the beginning , before his diagnosis, I always believe him when he apologized, he always wanted to work on us. I haven’t met many guys that were willing to work on themself. He seemed like he was a unicorn. I didn’t know that he knew all the right things to say and the promises he couldn’t keep. I think over time, just surviving was all I could do, that voice inside me just kept getting quieter. The voice that said you need to get out, you need to leave.I have been hearing it. Then after the diagnosis, I knew he couldn’t help it, but it still was so hurtful. I  KNOW I deserve better and believe that. It’s that it takes energy to take care of yourself and I’m so depleted. What I did for myself today, is I let my self really cry. Today I don’t care that he can’t help it, I hate what I have let him do to me, I hate who he is, all I see is his angry face. I know that the hate won’t last, because that is not who I am, but today I am going to let myself hate him. It’s hard to believe that the person that can be so nice, can also be that evil.

I know ultimately I will be ok, I will get past this.I,m sure you have noticed that I am a stubborn person and I won’t let him get in the way of a happy future. He is not renting space in my head.

Again...get used to challenging your own thinking, especially things you take on as "axioms".

I simply don't believe what you wrote is true..or helpful. 

If pwBPD can't help it...then why don't we collect them and put them in prison? 

Yes their ability to "help it" is compromised in some ways...that is their responsibility to work on..not yours.

Note:  Do you see the dichotomous thinking?

Best,

FF

FF,
So you believe that he knew what he was doing? He had some choice  in how he behaved,  it’s not just an subconscious  reaction. I think some of my problem may not be to challenge what I think, it is more about challenging what I have read and thought to be fact.

One of the things I struggle with is, what is their ability to really love? I have read that BPD is an attachment disorder and their ability to love is limited.

I sometimes have a difficult time figuring out, what particular thing that you are telling me to look at or challenge. I’m not sure if it is the choice of words, or the thought behind what you are questioning or the direction I may want to go.

B

When did it first seem not normal?


Is there comfort in thinking that your BF might be limited in his ability to love you?

LNL,
It was about 6 month in. A month or so after we became intimate.

No it would be less of a comfort to me. I would be very sad to think that I loved someone so much, who really didn’t love me. I’ve read about it several times and it said that their emotional maturity was that of a young child. Children don’t love the same way as adults do.

B53

Don't kick yourself for not noticing beforehand.  I've lately been noticing how so many arrive here saying it wasn't bad at first.  So my consolation is that when you get into an obligated relationship, that is where the other feels more free to "let it all hang out".  Remember the FOG we always refer to?  Fear, Obligation, Guilt.

If the Obligation is damaging to you and the relationship is dysfunctional or unhealthy, you have a right to care for yourself and move on.

This is also a reason others may notice something is off, maybe they can't quite put their finger on it, but we see it all because only we see the private behaviors let loose.

But... Seriously, do you want to live the rest of your life struggling to please or mollify a person who lives in his own world where perceptions are paramount and easily manipulated by his own grown disordered daughter?  Is there realistic hope that his efforts at personal therapy will make a sufficiently large transformation for the better?

ForeverDad,

I think this quote is what is going to get me through this. It was the final aha moment I needed. It’s so true, no, I don’t want to live my life that way. I printed it out and every time, I’m starting to feel really sad, I read it. This last episode was way over the top. Some of the things he did and said, I don’t think I will ever forget. I may at some point forgive, but not forget. Whether he can help it or not, I came back into that relationship  with such good intentions and hope. The day before he left was his birthday and I made it a very special day for him and in one week he painted me black. For him, it’s a terrible way to live, but I didn’t do this to him and I don’t need his abuse. I’m so done.

When I married my ex husband, he was a wonderful guy. It seem like after the day we got married he turned into a monster. What made it so hard, is that he always did it behind closed doors, so everyone thought he was such a nice guy. One day he slipped and verbally abused me in front of my sister in law. She was so horrified that she went to my parents and they helped me leave. Before that, nobody believed what I was saying, it looked like the problem was me. I have a lot of work to do on myself. Maybe I will have one last fighting chance to get back the love I give.

Thanks so much,
B53