BPDFamily.com

I’ve suspected for the last few months that H is having some abandonment/enmeshment/push-pull related to SS10.

SS was always a dad’s boy, even though H was the stricter parent. For the last year or so, though, he’s shown a mild preference for being at Ex’s. I suspect some of that has to do with the fact that Ex is constantly buying him things and getting whatever takeout he wants, while those things don’t happen much here. But I wouldn’t be surprised if H’s moodiness and outbursts (which are never aimed at SS) are a part of it.

H gets very worked up about things and has lately begun making comments that he’s this close to just telling Ex she can have SS full time.

I mostly keep my mouth shut — or try to.

The latest drama is tennis. As a gift for SS, Ex’s parents wanted to pay for SS to take group tennis lessons over the summer. H wasn’t thrilled but said ok. Next weekend, a week SS is with us, H has an unexpected Friday off. So, he texted Ex that if SS’s team loses his Little League tournament, he might take him out of town for a long weekend, missing Thursday evening’s tennis. She said fine. SS may be disappointed but that would be H’s to deal with.

H called me already on the way to a rage. I agreed that if it’s his week, it’s up to him what happens. He wanted me to tell him what he should say. I said I couldn’t tell him what to say to her but I was sure he would handle it well.

Bad answer.

He immediately launched into how unhelpful I am and how he just needs to talk to other people, not me. I said that might be good to get other opinions. He then warned me that all this could affect us and our livelihood because it will end up in court with us paying child support. I said we’d face whatever happened.

He ended up deciding to leave the house before I could get home and said he doesn’t know when he’ll return. I came home and did some chores and relaxed.

Do I think it will turn litigious? No. He and Ex have always worked well together and cooperated on kid stuff. What I suspect is going on? H is jealous of and threatened by his former in-laws. SS is an only child and only grandchild and has a close relationship with Ex’s parents — particularly her father. H has always talked about how much he dislikes them. (They’ve always been warm, friendly and welcoming to me but I keep my opinions there to myself.) He’s gotten more negative, though, lately.

Today, when I said, “Well, you just want to take SS for a short, fun trip. You haven’t been able to do that for a long time thanks to Covid.” He replied that that wasn’t all. He wants to mess up the tennis lesson and get in the way of it. He wants to do everything he can to scuttle SS’s relationship with his GF.

This is all familiar to me.

It does concern me. I think SS has problematic attitudes and behaviors and I have mixed feelings about him a lot of the time. But he’s a kid. He doesn’t deserve to be put in a situation like H is increasingly moving toward. Not that I think he can stop SS from having that relationship. At 10, it’s already well-formed.

He also kept reiterating how busy he had been today with work and he hadn’t eaten. Yeah, that makes him crankier but not eating is his choice. Even super-busy, there’s time to pop downstairs for an apple or a Pb sandwich. It kind of feels like he’s excusing himself when he does that or looking for sympathy.

Anyway, he’s out now. I’m hoping he’s able to settle himself down and get into a clearer headspace.

I didn’t engage in arguments. I didn’t let him guilt or threaten ne into rescuing it solving. So I’m thinking it was semi-successful?

Well, I spoke too soon.

He called later worked up on a lather about work. Wanting me to “give him permission” to quit. Then furious for my not telling him.

Then he went back to my parents’ friends and how they screwed him at his last job and until he puts a gun to their heads and kills them he’ll never be over it. He also never wants to have anything more to do with my parents and doesn’t want me to either. I told him he can do what he chooses but, no, I won’t stop seeing my parents.

I ended the conversation. He came home and said he wasn’t finished so I left.

I feel utterly confused and defeated. Am I being unreasonable? Are my parents horrible people for not dropping their friends if 40 years over H’s job? To be honest, yeah, a part of me thinks he was partially responsible for what happened. I don’t know. He keeps accusing me of using him. Of hurting his feelings. Of taking him for what I can get. He hasn’t mentioned this in months and now it comes up again. Apparently someone saw a post on Facebook and told him about it. He keeps talking about how he would do all kinds of things for my family but they won’t do anything for him.

It’s just so much more complicated than that.

These things just keep happening and I just can’t keep it up. I honestly don’t know why I’m hanging on other than fear of the unknown or of the pain and difficulties that would come from divorce.

I want to be helpful. I want to do the right thing. I don’t want him to be hurt. But my gut just doesn’t think it’s/he’s right.

This is an escalation..is it not?

How many other times has he threatened murder?

Circling back to earlier threads...how he "had no idea how to change", how did your follow up conversations go?

Best,

FF

It is escalation — sort of. He’s said things like that before but it has increased. He always backtracks later. But the violent verbiage and name-calling are frequent when he’s in a rage.

This morning he was calm, rational and contrite. Again says he doesn’t know why he gets that way. I asked him how he plans to address stopping it and changing the pattern. He didn’t know. Said the drugs and therapy don’t work. He tries mindfulness exercises to calm down when something sets him off but it never works. He needs to scream and yell.

I said ok, what’s preventing him from doing that — behind a closed door or alone in his car? He said he could try that.

I was very firm that I will not participate anymore. If he calls and I can tell he wants to rage, I will hang up. If he comes hone and insists on keeping it going, I will leave.

He keeps saying the things he says (well, most of them) are not things he really thinks or feels. I think he does feel some of these things — just not up that level.

He doesn’t have another P appointment until August but said he would look into an earlier one.

I really don’t know. We’ve had these talks before and then something sets him off. But if I can stick to my plan, at least I can be spared.

Well perhaps you can be spared, but is this the way you really want to live?

Regarding your SS’s contact with relatives, tennis lessons, and friends, it seems your husband is jealous of anything that doesn’t involve him and wants to isolate SS, just like he tries to do with you. It’s a typical abuser move to separate the target from outside influence and support.

Then, there’s the all or nothing thinking. When SS is behaving more independently, your husband is ready to surrender custody to the ex. In other words, how SS and you respond to him is all about him. He’s not seeing you as separate entities, but rather as how you serve him, or not.

I think you need to get him out of the house for a cup of coffee or milkshake..something like that.

Then ask him "Do you want to change?".

If he doesn't know...or dodges...well, that's your answer.

If he does want to change, then the condition for you sticking around is you sit in office with him and P can come up with a plan (if there is one) eliminate threats of murder/bodily harm/ and the like from  your relationship.

Here is the thing..if he is contrite/remorseful/sorry he should go along.

If those things are being misinterpreted and he is just emotionally exhausted and starting the build up cycle to more threats...I think you can find that out TODAY.

 :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

This is hard stuff.  Alarming stuff because I don't recall this level of vitriol/threatened violence previously (perhaps I missed it...)

Best,

FF

Do you see a pattern in these thoughts and accusations, Ozzie?

I asked him directly if he wants to change. He said yes, that he doesn’t want to be like this. I said I would like to sit in on his next p appointment and he said sure. It’s not for another month but he said he can try to get in before. The guy doesn’t spend much time talking to him and he said he doesn’t think it would be terribly helpful but I said I want to anyway.

The vitriol has always been there. But, yes, I think it’s gotten more frequent.

There’s definitely a pattern of victimhood. Everything that happens is centered on him. And everyone’s motives are always bad. People who annoy or hurt him do it on purpose. People’s intentions are malicious.

There’s also the abandonment fear. People are going to leave him. To discard him.

When he’s at baseline most of these things never come up. He still has a negative view of people. But it’s not yo the same degree. It’s like he gets triggered and negative emotions take over.

He seems to think people are spending a lot of time thinking about him — either how to get him or just dwelling on him. I’m reminded of a quote from the show Schitt’s Creek: “people aren’t thinking about you the way you’re thinking about you.”

These days, these recent years, making that sort of threats can get him in tons of hot water.  No one can be sure what's really going on inside someone's head.  Even if he really is only blowing off steam, he needs to realize some things said while 'venting' simply can't be unsaid.  And if law enforcement or others learn of this, there may be no undoing it.

True, ForeverDad. I believe he only says these things to or around me. For the most part, his rages aren’t known to anyone else as he’s usually able to keep things (mostly) under control. I do believe there have been a couple of flare-ups at work and his long-time friends know he has a temper, but none of them know what really happens.

Wasn't he essentially fired for these rages at the church job? 

Here is the thing...I "see" you sitting down with his P and saying.

My husband says he wants to change his rages...his rages have gotten him fired and he is now threatening to murder my family while raging and then seems remorseful later.

My husband says nothing works and he has no idea how to change this behavior.

Is this something you and your mental health colleagues can address and try to make better?

Then ask follow up questions like "how long"?  What will my hubby need to do?  What will I need to do?

I would also ask if his P was aware this type of thing had been going on (essentially figure out how seriously your hubby has been portraying this to them)

Best,

FF

I’m not sure what got him fired. It’s equally as likely that it was the change of senior pastor. That’s pretty standard procedure. I do think he pushed back on things and wasn’t easy to deal with. But I don’t know if there were rages. It’s possible there were.

He made the murder comments about my parents’ friends, not my family — not that that makes it ok at all.

Those are some good suggestions for what to say and ask.

I wish I knew what’s causing the escalation and increase in frequency. It’s gotten to where he can’t go more than a week. He said it himself yesterday — he keeps setting goals for himself on not blowing up. But he can’t even make it a week.

And that, among other reasons, is why he feels free to "let go" in your presence and on you.  He has known you have felt in an obligated relationship and reluctant to reveal what he has said and done.


Without improvement in meaningful therapy, the behaviors worsen over time.  It's not you or anyone else, it's him.  However, you setting proper boundaries, which you must, has revealed how he can't handle boundaries reasonably normal people can.

That’s most likely true all around, ForeverDad. He’s told me before that he wasn’t always like this. I think that’s true to an extent, but I believe the seeds were there. He used to explode at or about his parents. His Ex has said he used to have out-sized reactions to things. Close friends have seen him rant. But I don’t think any of them have witnessed or dealt with the full bore of his dysregulating or decompensating.

There have been a couple of times when he was “off” (which isn’t the same as one of his rages — this is when his eyes change and it’s as if someone else is at the wheel) when he was around a close friend or his Ex. I could tell the friend knew something was wrong but H kept it more together. This friend is the only one aware of what we went through 3 years ago (H told him) and the friend told me that H had a temper but he’d never seen him be the way he was being described. With the Ex, I wasn’t there and it was a quick two-minute meeting at a baseball game but H told me later that she point-blank asked him “What’s wrong with you?”

His issues right now seem to center on his job and I suspect he fears being fired again. There’s also stress and bitterness because he’s not the boss this time around and he doesn’t have some of the perks from that old job. There are also a lot of last-minute projects and crises and having to fix things a former employee did wrong. He says he complains to friends and they all ask what I say about it and he says I can’t help.

He’s done that many times before — tell me what other people think of me to get a reaction. It doesn’t work anymore because I know I can’t know what they’ve really said or heard, and their opinions don’t particularly matter if I feel like I’m doing the right thing. Yet I can’t help but second-guess myself. Am I being cold and heartless by refusing to tell him he should quit? By not being more “helpful” (whatever that means)? I feel like I’m setting boundaries and that adults should handle their own jobs. I’m here for discussion and brain-storming, of course.

I don’t know. I just have this fear that everything is becoming more and more normalized for me. Like it’s normal for me to take my glasses every time I leave for work and having the numbers of a couple of hotels programmed into my phone just in case I have to stay elsewhere for a night.

The second guessing myself kept me really stuck for a long time in my relationship. My ex said and did a lot of the exact same things your h says to you. The difference is that my ex would escalate to physical violence quickly during a rage. Not all the time, but many times.

He had a way of framing things as me "not helping"; other people were saying that as his wife I should be "helping". I second guessed myself so much that I didn't know what was helping, what was enabling, and what was just unreasonable demands on me. It was very confusing and over three years out, it's much easier to look back and see where I got sucked into caretaking while he deflected responsibility. But in the fog of the relationship, it was so hard.

No, you're not heartless for refusing to give him the okay to quit. He seems to want to quit every time he has a situation that involves normal adult stress. If you say no, he will blame you, if you say yes, he will blame you. It's his job. He's an adult and he has to take responsibility for the decision to quit.

He doesn't seem to want a supportive partner. He wants someone who takes all the responsibility and makes him feel better because he can't handle the normal adult stress of life.


I think there's a commonality between him saying you don't help and him saying that therapy and meds don't help. I think "helping", to him, means alleviating all his stress. He probably wanted the therapist to "fix" his problems without having to do anything himself to exact behavioral change. Therapy doesn't just magically make you happy and feel good all the time. It doesn't take away the normal stress of life. Therapy gives you tools to use to manage your own emotional distress.

Essentially, that's what you've been trying to do for him...help him use tools for managing emotional distress and using empathetic listening to offer support.

It's not enough for him, and neither is therapy, because it doesn't take away all his negative feelings.

His issues are not the job, the new house, his SS, your parents friends, or you. His issues are a deeply rooted sensitivity to rejection and fear of abandonment, and an attitude that the world must coddle and cater to him.

Yes, your "normal" will include having a safety plan in your back pocket at all times as long as these behaviors continue. That's very difficult and can wear on your emotional and mental wellbeing. Self care is going to be essential for you.

I can't remember if we've talked about this before...have you ever read "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft? I recommend it if you haven't.

Thank you, Redeemed. I agree with your assessment.

He wants to be rescued from stress or responsibility. When he’s very upset, he’ll lash out at me for not helping more with SS or dealing with Ex. That’s most definitely not my responsibility and I’ve always refused to do more than what I feel is appropriate. SS is his child. Not mine. I can do some things but many things? Way out of my bounds.

Two-three years ago he and I were talking about therapy and his frustrations with it. At that time, he said he wanted a therapist to tell him how to remove stressors from his life. I told him that’s not how it works. That therapy can help you learn to manage it better. But you can never completely eliminate stressors. His T at the time said the same and he seemed to accept it but was obviously disappointed.

He says he doesn’t really want to talk about the past or feelings. He just wants someone to tell him what’s wrong and what to do to fix it.

My suspicion is what’s wrong is far deeper and more complicated than he thinks and it will take much more than a simple fix. He wouldn’t like that — he doesn’t have the patience.

I have read that book. It was very enlightening (and disheartening). Currently, I keep it in a drawer in my office along with SWOE, Should I Stay Or Should I Go? (also by Bancroft) and my physical journal (I have a password-protected one on my phone). I pull it out for refreshers on occasion. I’ve been doing that more lately.

And you’re correct about the ultimate issue. There will always be something new. Something else. Because “it” isn’t “it.”

My question for you, Ozzie, is: What are the positives for you in this relationship?

Positives:

When things are normal, we work well together. We enjoy the same things (travel, music, similar TV shows).

I appreciate the companionship.

It sounds bad, but I appreciate the financial security.

I like having a partner. Much of the time we can function as a team and work together.

What I’m trying to figure out now is if that’s enough. If the negatives outweigh those positives. And if the positives are really real or if I’ve normalized some abnormal things.

Note:  This is very much like in my relationship, although in my r/s there are additional bio children as compared to the step child situation in yours.

Have I eliminated "BPD" from my r/s...nope, likely never will.  However I have strong boundaries and "it" rarely impacts the basic functions of the r/s.

It appears to me that both of you guys are struggling to contain this, although he definitely is trying to "hand responsibility" to you for himself.

Are there ways in which you are trying to hand him responsibility for decisions in your life?


Best,

FF

I may not be understanding your question, FF, so forgive me if I’m off-base.

Looking at things, I’ve been passive. Waiting for his actions to react.

In a way, I think I make him responsible for my happiness and security by letting both center on his moods. I think I’m making some progress there but there’s a long way to go.

I make choices based on his possible reactions. But, ultimately, I am responsible for what I do and don’t do. I have to make sure I own that and don’t slip into “I have to do this to keep him from getting mad.”

I was a bit purposefully vague.

Ultimately..whose responsibility is it for the (fill in the blank) that goes into your ears and mind?

Best,

FF

By and large, mine. I can choose to listen/participate or not.

Sometimes I’ve felt like I had no choice (and a couple of times I didn’t because I literally couldn’t get away) but, ultimately, I play into the dysfunction by allowing him to rant and rage at me without removing myself.

So, in those instance where you couldn't get away, did you call for assistance (pretty sure I know the answer/kinda remember the incidences).

Best,

FF

I didn’t. In one case, he had taken my phone and I couldn’t. There was a repairman there and I asked him to call for help but he didn’t do it. Other times, I came close but chickened out for fear of escalating or being seen as overreacting.

I’ve allowed a lot of this to happen. My over-active guilt complex and helper personality combined to keep me here and present. Somehow, I bought into the story that if I don’t listen, don’t “help”, don’t rescue, I’m being a bad wife. Looking back at conversations over time, I can see the patterns and manipulations. And I’ve fallen for it. Early on, before I started to understand what I was dealing with, I genuinely believed I was failing as a wife. None of the marriages I’d witnessed up close had been like that. H said it was my fault. It must be. This site helped me get some clarity. There’s a part of me that still feels responsible for his feelings and actions. It became so engrained in those events from a few years ago.

It’s actually hard for me sometimes to see where the boundaries should be. Am I being rational and appropriate? Or selfish and hard-hearted? I know what I think. But at times I can’t even trust myself.

There’s so many potential triggers for self doubt in these relationships. They seem to follow a familiar pattern.

You fall in love with someone who seems to be so compatible with you, but you are unaware that they are working hard to mirror you, enjoy what you enjoy, share your activities and values.

After they feel somewhat secure that you are committed to the relationship, they show their unfiltered side, which isn’t about you, but about their own unrequited needs and emotional dysfunction.

That you hadn’t seen this side previously, prior to making a significant commitment to them, can feel as if one did not have the proper due diligence in making one of the most important life decisions one will ever make.

Then there’s the faith that love will make things better and if I just try hard enough, I can repair this relationship.

Problem is, that strategies that might work with an emotionally healthy partner completely backfire when used with a BPD partner. (I thought I had some pretty good people skills...what am I doing wrong?)

Then there’s the blame aspect. When all your attempts to soothe them and fix things not only don’t work, but make them mad and accuse you of not caring, then your self esteem is further undermined.

So it’s no wonder you are having some self doubt.

For me, especially when I was first "making changes"...it seemed if I "felt" I was being a selfish jerk, that I was about right on my approach.

Perhaps that will work for you as well.

Now I usually don't "feel" much..I just realize there is a boundary...hold it and grab some popcorn to see if there is a show.  It's usually over pretty quick.

Best,

FF

 lol  That too, and I felt like I was on the road to becoming a narcissist.

And..one of the reasons I continue my r/s with a psychologist, because I want to make sure that my approaches are "in the healthy range"...even though they "feel" narcissistic.

Best,

FF

I do start wondering if I’m a narcissist! Glad to know I’m not alone!

Had a good T appointment today. She was a little concerned that I’m starting to doubt myself on some things, though she says that’s normal under the circumstances. She was also in favor of my blocking his phone and/or going to a hotel. She said it might lead to a positive pattern change (or might not).

Other good talk. It was very helpful today.

So last night we had a conversation as part of a new plan: discuss our day every day.

He asked if my T had any helpful input. I told him she thought his idea about nightly talks about our day was a good one. He asked what about the rage incidents. I said she also thought my plan to end conversations and (if necessary) stay elsewhere was also good.

He stayed calm and together but he replied and he wasn’t so sure anymore that that plan will work. “It’s not going to stop my anger or those things from happening.” I said I knew that. That’s not the purpose. It’s to remove myself from the situation — to protect me and our relationship.

We discussed it a little more before watching tv and going to bed but I could tell he was very “down.”

Points made or discussed:
1) When triggered, he has a strong physical reaction (heart pounding, getting very hot). There’s no build-up.
2) He knows he overreacts to a lot of things. When he cools off, he looks back and thinks he was silly to get so upset, or realizes the person didn’t intend it the way he took it.
3) He thinks he just shouldn’t talk to me about serious or important stuff. He should find someone else to vent to.

What I got out of it:
He thinks his episodes are just venting and letting off steam. (Made that pretty clear.) I think he thinks I’m taking things wrong. He kept talking about how different people react differently and how one person can think the other person’s way is strange. I told him this is more than that but it was obvious he didn’t buy what I said.

That doubting part of me that keeps getting bigger starts to wonder: am I overreacting to him? Are his rages and episodes normal venting? I don’t think so. I look back to some of the things he’s done and said, listened to some recordings, and I just can’t imagine those things are normal. Yet this nagging voice keeps asking: am I being unfair? Oversensitive?

What was your therapists advice about how to handle your husbands threats of homicide and bodily harm?

I like your T's idea about reviewing the day...good plan.

Best,

FF

Actually, it was H’s idea.y T just said that sounded good.

As for H’s violent speech, T didn’t really say much about that. She seemed to think it was just a (VERY strong) verbalization of his anger/fear/insecurity. Honestly, while it’s difficult to listen to, I’ve never really taken it seriously because, at my core, I don’t believe he would ever do anything.

It was kind of rolled in with my shutting things down — like any talk about my family (or their friends).

So...if your T's and his P both accurately know about your husbands threats...and they aren't alarmed by them...then I think many of use (especially me) can relax a bit.

This is an area where there can be NO SHADOWs for behavior to hide (threats of this kind).

Best,

FF

We members here, I would venture to say all of us, are reasonably normal people whose Nice Guy and Nice Gal personas are to be exceedingly nice, generous and fair... to a fault.  By that I mean, what would be otherwise excellent qualities — niceness, generosity, fairness — are "faults" when dealing with acting-out (to extremes) persons.

So you have to "double down" on your perspectives, your good traits aren't the problem, don't doubt yourself, at least not overmuch.  And some of us, such as in your case, are at risk of suffering DV as well.

I think I need to do some sort of regular reality checks — possibly through journaling, reading the books I have, rereading old journal entries, listening to recordings. Maybe that can help keep me grounded. That and make sure I’m carving out time to do things I used to enjoy.

Part of what bothers me is I just don’t feel much enjoyment of anything these days. Everything feels forced. My T said that’s not unusual given the ramp-up in incidents.

I just don’t want to look up one day and find myself in a hole.

H is going out of town for almost a week at the beginning of July. I’m hoping that can be a respite of sorts for me.

You did take the Mosaic test? Do you remember your score? Perhaps it’s time to retake it.

I’m not willing to just give a pass on death threats. Sure, he may just be articulating an extreme level of displeasure. But that he goes into fugue states where he doesn’t remember his behavior—that gives me pause. And the unremitting victimhood.

Most people don’t visualize or verbalize murdering someone they don’t like. Perhaps doing something unpleasant to them or a doing a prank, but putting a bullet into them? That’s worrisome to me.

I did the Mosaic test 2.5 years ago and again a couple of months ago — scored a 6 both times.

I just got off the phone with H (we needed to figure out dinner and he wanted to give me a heads-up that his mom may be calling me about something).

Anyway, he said he’s made a list of a few topics he wants to discuss tonight because he’s been thinking a lot about things. He had thoughts about underlying issues, what led to his more recent difficulties. He also said things about how, ultimately, we’re both going to have to work on ourselves (I agree) and that a lot of it will come down to understanding and accepting people and just dealing with things.

So now I’m feeling a sinking feeling. I just have this strong suspicion that he’s going to double down on things he hinted at yesterday — that much of the problem is I just don’t understand where he’s coming from and I can’t cope with his rages (which aren’t out of the ordinary).

I told him I’m happy to discuss things and will be glad to hear and discuss his thoughts. But inside I’m just praying I don’t get triggered. He might be more reasonable than I’m anticipating. But I just suspect I’m in for a conversation of him normalizing his behavior and/or blaming me for not supporting or understanding him enough.

ETA: Just re-took and got a 7. Not sure how accurate it was as a couple of questions I really wasn’t sure how to answer.

Anyway, I plan to listen to what he has to say, practice mindfulness, stay calm, but stay clear-eyed.

Last night wasn’t too bad but wasn’t great either. He’s been playing organ at a small local church and got triggered by a couple of things. It was enhanced by a friend of his who reacted in a way H felt was supportive (as opposed to me, even though I pretty much said the same things). Anyway, he spun off into complaints about our wedding, how we had had to have it in my hometown church, which is only 45 minutes from where we live now, and how the organist there was awful — even though he ended up not playing for us. It was apparent he was in a cycle, saying the same things over and over — and, once again, pulling places, people or events important to me into situations to which they’re only related if you squint and tilt your head. So, I eventually just said “It seems like this is something you feel strongly about. We’ve talked about it a while. Do you have anything new to say about it?” No. I changed the conversation to something else, which led to pouring on his part.

He was still moody after SS10 went to bed, but he was more rational and “with it” when he addressed the things he had been thinking about and wanted to share.
1) He will never get past what happened at his old job and thinking “your parents’ friends” are bad people. Though he conceded he didn’t know all the story or what role the wife played in the decisions. (Husband was not even on the committee but H hates him too.) he said that I will just have to get past that. Not sure what that means. I don’t care how he feels about them. I just don’t want to hear about it anymore.

2) He doesn’t want me to keep seeing a T. He says seeing therapists just moves people in different directions until they’re split. Each person’s T is their advocate and just criticizes the other partner’s behavior. He said his most recent Ts had both pointed out things I had done wrong or should have done differently. I couldn’t tell if that was bait or not but I didn’t ask questions. I don’t think I need to know because he may not have presented a full story, they might have meant it a different way and I know I do and have done some things wrong.
I told him that’s not the point of my therapy. It’s for me. To make me stronger and give me tools so that our relationship can be the best it can be. The individuals have to be strong for the unit to be healthy. He dropped it but I’m sure it will continue to come up.

3) He can’t get past my telling my family about our problems 2.5 years ago when he had no clue there were problems. It makes him not want to be around them, judging and hating him. Now I’m talking about joining my family beach trip next year and he doesn’t want to go but feels like he’d have to because otherwise he’ll be the odd one not going and people will talk about him and blame him.
We’ve covered this ground before. He knows I’ve said I tried to talk to him and he wouldn’t listen and I felt like I had no choice. I do regret telling people but I don’t think it was the wrong decision at that time.
Anyway, he said he still has and always will have resentment about that. I just said I understood and that there were a lot of things I wish had never happened. My family (as far as I can tell anyway) has moved on.

So, that was our night. Frankly, I just feel tired.

Can’t get past resentment at my telling family and he didn’t know
Both his most recent Ts criticized my behavior
We’re moving in different directions with different Ts

 :wee: :wee: :wee: :wee: :wee: :wee: :wee: :wee: :wee: :wee: :wee:

 |iiii |iiii |iiii |iiii |iiii |iiii |iiii |iiii |iiii |iiii |iiii |iiii

Is this the first time you have used this?

Based on what you saw after using this line...how do you plan to use it in the future?

Best,

FF

Please don't do this until a couple others on these boards give a green light to this...

I think this is a place to succinctly go on offense.

"Hey babe...I'm troubled by the misunderstanding of what my T and I do together...privately. Our work revolves around how I should behave when I don't get my way...which I still struggle with.

I'm going to keep seeing my T.

I'll trust that you spent enough time with your T to not throw a tantrum over my decision."


What do you think he would do?

Best,

FF

On the “anything new to say” bit — I have said something similar before but never that succinctly. I will use it again but, from past experience, I expect him to adjust to the new strategy and plow on ahead.

On point 2: I actually did say most of that — just didn’t go to the part about trusting he spent enough time with his. I just stressed that I’m going to keep seeing mine. That it sounds like there’s a misunderstanding about what my T and I work on. We work on me, things I struggle with, my reactions and how to handle things that happen (not just our marriage) because I can be easily triggered.

He dropped that one but, again, it will keep coming up. He feels threatened by it (and feels like my going is his “fault”) and possibly a little jealous as I’ve had good experiences with two Ts in my life and get something out of it. Similar with family stuff. He seems to see that as a threat to us.

He can’t seem to let go of the past and needs to rehash it over and over, weaponizing it: location of your wedding, your parent’s friend, your family’s knowledge about your relationship problems.

These events are all present tense in his mind.

Your therapy is seen as a threat to him.

The irony is that what is really a threat to his security in the relationship is his behavior, how he won’t take responsibility for outcomes he’s created, and how he blames others for situations of his own making.

Exactly. He really can’t see it at all. Anything that happens seems to bring old events (even ones several years old) to the forefront and he can’t seem to stop ruminating.

With my family’s knowledge of our problems (previous — they don’t know what’s going on now), it comes up occasionally. But what he can never truly admit or grasp is that he actually did the things that upset people and drove me away. It was my choice to tell and I own that. But the events happened.

One of my sisters has had troubles the last couple of years (I suspect some PD exists there) and it’s a sore spot for him that the family still loves and supports her, yet they were ready to be done with him. He doesn’t seem to understand how the situations and relationships are different. Kind of like his frequent passive-aggressive comments about how no one cares about SS10.

Anyway, I know not to expect these admissions or insights from him. It’s just frustrating.

He says he wants me to be able to talk to him about things. I would like that too. But I can’t. Not about some things, anyway. It never goes over well — and if it does, it gets weapon used later.

He’s the one pushing me away. Things like my therapy and this site are a big part of what makes me able to (somewhat) manage and stick around.

So...what about pausing the start of these conversations and asking..

"This seems important.  How do you see this conversation improving our relationship."

Then...only deal with that, if he refuses to answer, conversation is over.

If he has a theory on how "rehashing" seems to help...focus the conversation on understanding his point of view on that.

Best,

FF

Good suggestion. I’m curious to hear what his answer would be.

I also think since he is bringing up T...that is where the focus should lie.

"OK...let's schedule time together with my T to discuss your concerns."  Then...never again discuss them...NEVER...outside a therapeutic environment.

Remember...all of these efforts/conversations meetings are around one central claim of his.

He wants to change..but has NO IDEA how to.

So...he can listen to your Ts thoughts on that (as well as other things)

He can listen to  his Ps thoughts on this (as well as other things)

Then at some point...nobody can deny that "he knows" but is either unwilling or doesn't wan to "do" those things.

Of course..perhaps he also actually does them and improves.

Best,

FF

Good plan, FF.

Talk is cheap. Look at behavior, not talk.

He’s remorseful when he’s been caught behaving poorly. He apologizes but he doesn’t change his behavior.

He claims he doesn’t know what to do or can’t change.

If that is truly the case, what you’re dealing with will only change regarding the details. The patterns will repeat over and over and over.

And...to add to this, focus all of your talk on  a change in behavior.

So...in this example.  Stop bitching about a T and show up...discuss concerns there.

Basically..quickly exit "rehash" mode and put the spotlight on him taking some action "other than rehashing".

Best,

FF

Very good suggestions from both of you. I really appreciate that and will put thought into how to implement when the moment hits.

And..as part of "mindset shift"...I would encourage you to start "creating moments"...even if they are uncomfortable for your hubby...and you.

Best,

FF

The irony is that he wants you to talk to him. You’re hesitant to do so because he can be set off so easily. He senses that you’re not fully disclosing yourself. He then gets fearful that you’ll leave. Fear causes him to act poorly. Over time you wonder if this relationship is worth staying. He senses your emotional retreat. It triggers his fear. He behaves badly. Rinse and repeat.

the bold is the part of the cycle for you to zero in on "like a sniper"..especially because he "wants" to be different..but has "no idea" how to.

So..let the people that "have an idea" tell him...and then (we know he will do it poorly..especially at first)...watch his efforts.

Keep handing it back to him to correct his behavior...at some point (hopefully guided by professionals ...you will l likely end any and all participation in conversations about "family and friends doing him in"

Best,

FF

Good “long game” plans there.

Yes, creating moments and opening up to him more will be difficult — for both of us. I’ve gotten so used to keeping things to myself (or just mentioning things here or to my T). But I’m sure he can sense that and it adds to the snowball effect. People keeping things from him is a huge trigger.

I struggle with bringing up anything serious when he’s in a good mood, for fear of plunging us into another incident. But that’s stagnating. It’s not really addressing the problem.

So, I really need to think about how to open up and what things to discuss or disclose. As well as ways to hand things back when it goes off the rails.

He probably senses that he's sort of a *second class citizen* in your world in that you don't share openly with him the way you do with your family or your therapist. For that reason, he's likely jealous of the ease with which you relate to others, and not to him.

And that brings it back to the reason why sharing is limited -- his reactions and quickly escalating rages. He has not made the connection between his behavior and other people's attitude toward him. I don't see him doing anything to change until and unless he makes a deep internal connection that then helps him see that any change will require "work" on his own -- therapeutic work that he no longer wants to do.

I think that’s definitely a theme, GaGrl. He doesn’t make that connection: that certain events and attitudes of others are consequences of his own actions. Instead, it’s always the fault of someone else.

Granted, I’m far from perfect and make many mistakes. And I don’t like to make excuses. But it is difficult. We have had some good, productive-seeming conversations in the past when I’ve shared my feelings and thoughts about things. It generally isn’t productive, ultimately. And can be used against me at times. But I may just need to change my approach. I don’t know. But any sharing will have to be carefully thought out.

And, yes, Cat, I’m sure you’re right about the jealousy. (Though the only person I share with is my T.) I do feel comfortable talking about my feelings (non-H-related) with certain family members. Solely because I know they love and support me and would never use my words against me. I want that with him. But it will take time to get there.

I agree. It seems that at this point, his connection to his behavior and other people's attitudes towards him as being cause and effect: their attitudes cause his behavior.

His rehashing of the past seems obsessive, hyperfocused on perceived rejection, and all too familiar to me.

There's also absolutely nothing you can do to change the past or make him feel better about it. Nothing short of actually changing the past would probably do it. That's impossible. He's stuck and not forward looking at all, and without the ability to process his feelings and move forward, conversations about perceived injustices of the past are unproductive and even emotionally or mentally harmful to you.

It's a classic abuser behavior: these people in your life wronged me un this way, so to make it up to me, you must cut ties with them and show loyalty to only me.

That's how abusers eliminate threats, and how abuse victims and up stuck without support and immersed in the world of their abuser.

Hey Ozzie,

I'm certainly not suggesting you "open up" to him in a vulnerable way..that's a long way off.  If others are suggesting that...I'd be interested in hearing more.

I am suggesting that thinking about responses and then passively waiting for "a moment" to appear is "not a complete strategy"...although it is obviously wise to prepare.

You see...by limiting yourself to passive until he makes a move...who is "in charge" of the relationship?   Your life...?  Your schedule?

So...I think that you should pick a time for public brunch...perhaps set things up to where you meet him somewhere so each of you have a car.

"Hey..it's been a couple weeks since we talked about addressing your rages (or whatever you want to call them..)...I'm wondering what new ideas you have?"

Certainly we need to work on coaching on words and such...the point is that YOU bring up his behavior and you seek information about his fixing it and if he bobs and weaves...ask him directly if his commitment to address this is still valid.

And if he finds these conversations unpleasant...he does have a way out..right?  What would that be?

Best,

FF

Oh, I agree that I may need to initiate. By waiting for a moment I meant more like making sure the mood and situation are right. For instance, last night SS10 had a tournament baseball game that had H very anxious and on-edge. That would not have been a good time.

If he feels overwhelmed or doesn’t want to discuss, he’s always free to walk/drive away. Or to say he doesn’t want to talk right now.

Regardless, going on past behavior, I expect him to be uncomfortable. To get defensive. If he’s in a stable place he’ll be able to keep it together. He’ll just get very tense and will argue. Or, he’ll just shut down and completely tune me out. Until next time he gets upset.

One thing he’s very focused on is that he’s not the whole problem. I’m certainly willing and able to admit that I have made (and will continue to make) mistakes. But it almost always turns to “if other people didn’t do this” or “if they would just do that” or if I could just be supportive and give him what he needs and not put anything and everyone before him and SS.

I know it’s the BPD (or whatever is really going on). And I know he’s acting from a place of deep insecurity, shame and fear. But it does get frustrating when I know that, really, so many of these problems (not just ones with me) are actually caused by him. I don’t want to come across like I’m always attacking him or trying to make him feel like it’s all his fault. That would not be productive. Maybe try telling him some specific things I am planning yo work on? So it seems less one-sided?

Ozzie,

My husband (we are now separated for almost 2 weeks), has often said concerning his rage episodes that I do not want him to ‘express himself’.  I would always tell him that I very much want him to express himself and discuss with me things that are bothering him, to which he often replied, ‘I can’t talk to you about things’. 

Right up until the day before I left for my alone time (he let me know a couple weeks ago he is throwing in the towel and had gotten his own apartment and that he only wants to worry about himself), he was bringing up these ‘issues’, all of which were not current day but things that happened years ago that have plagued him for years apparently, the biggest one: my being friends with someone when he first met me that he was uncomfortable with because we had dated.  We dated for 2 weeks in 2011, I felt zero connection and didn’t continue to see this person romantically and we were neighbors and had a friendship, which I completely ended the friendship (my neighbor was furious and confused) when I met my husband in 2014 because he was uncomfortable with it.  Apparently this has plagued my husband for years, however he had not expressed these concerns until they came out in a drunken rage and completely took me off guard, seeing as it is 2021.  The point being, he says that he feels he cannot talk to me about things that bother him, but when it boils over and he rages and I get upset he says I just don’t want him to express himself.

I went to stay with a friend for a few days after an epic meltdown which led to our separation and he was texting me all kinds of crazy things and kept saying that I do not care about his concerns.  I just kept responding that I very much care about his concerns and would like to discuss them in a respectful way.  I did not engage beyond that.

 Over  the years I would get drawn into these text explosions and attempt to appease him and bring him out of rage, typically he would be back to his loving wonderful self within a few hours, and the cycle continued.  I do wish I had practiced better boundaries with him earlier, but this thing has been a maze that ever changes that I’ve been running around and hitting walls that didn’t exist before. 

In short, no, it is most certainly not normal the way they express themselves.  This is the first time in 7 years that we haven’t spoken every day (day 11 now of NC) and I’m finally unhooked from this plug of constant worry about how he’ll perceive communication and if he’s going to be triggered.

It sounds crazy to me writing all this, like how the hell was I living like this, but the bad days for us had honestly gotten so much fewer and far between, and he truly is a wonderful, amazing man when he’s not triggered.  But even on our best days, there was typically an undercurrent that I was aware of, and that didn’t allow me to ever fully relax and enjoy life, and that’s the truth I am dealing with now, that as an adult I allowed myself to stay in a situation that I knew was wreaked with dysfunction because I just loved him too much to leave.  And so finally he had to be the one to say he was leaving. 

Somehow I responded to an excerpt and this reply was intended for a different thread.  Either way hope sharing my experience helps someone!

To a point I agree with you.  If he is able to show up for a friendly brunch/hangout session...then that's a good time.

Should he walk away or refuse to engage...then your job going forward is taking the stance that "this is the next issue..when you are ready"

So...he comes home a couple days later and wants to talk about your third cousins neighbor's betrayal...or even setting up a fun vacation.  Let him know you are ready to chat about that..after the brunch conversation is done...and it would appear now is a good time.

He gets no satisfaction/relief from running.

He does get relief from taking healthy steps guided by mental health professionals.

Best,

FF

To FF’s point, in no way am I encouraging you to share more fully with your husband. Rather I’m saying that he notices that you have a sense of ease with others that you don’t have with him, due to being hypervigilant—for good reasons.

Before things got better with my husband and me, he too would notice how easygoing I was with other people—friends, contractors, casual acquaintances and how I’d joke and laugh and was so comfortable talking with them. And he was jealous that I was no longer like that with him.

Like you, I was wary and watchful, concerned about setting him off.

Things are better nowadays. He is generally in a less reactive space, but he still gets set off. The difference is that I no longer participate in his emotional upsets, and let him deal with it alone.

Sure there’s been a couple of times in the last year that I got triggered too and began to argue. But unlike how I previously responded, once I realized how fruitless that conversation was, I quickly changed direction and extricated myself.

Should you take this path, you’ll have to endure endless comments about how uncaring and heartless you are for not being “more concerned.” When he said that, I agreed. “Yep, I’m probably the most thoughtless and unkind person you’ve ever known,” then I beat a hasty retreat and did something alone that was enjoyable.

Thank y’all for the clarifications. Cat, I would like to get where you are. Maybe it’s possible. I don’t know.

I’ll admit, FF, the idea of having the conversation and holding to it makes me feel very nervous. Not that I think you’re wrong — at all. You’re most likely right. I think the instability of the last year (really escalating in the recent months) has me afraid of pushing him too far. Though, I realize that is letting him and his emotions drive the ship and that is counterproductive.

But it might not be that bad. I expect a lot of “I just don’t think I should have to be the only one who has to change.” I would, of course, agree that I have things to work on as well.

And thank you for your input St Jude! Our situations do sound similar.

Although it may not come across on this forum since I’m being very self disclosing, I’m a very polite and reserved person in real life. Though my internal dialog is one of extreme profanity, I have perfected the art of having a poker face and being aware of my body language and minimal cues. (Such are the benefits of growing up with a very intrusive BPD mother.)

I’m typically very strategic in my important communications, it could be said that I’m manipulative. I’ve read lots of business books, did some grad school for counseling and communication, and my tactical outcome is a win/win for all parties.

That said, I also have a “go for broke” streak when I have reached the limit of my patience and have exhausted all my available strategies.

I certainly am not advocating for you to adopt this mindset, but thinking about the potential clarity it might yield, could possibly help motivate you to ask him if he ever intends to work on his issues. The answer will give you perspective about what you will experience in years to come.

I can be very similar, Cat. Reserved, polite, very careful in communicating with my eyes on the end goal. Serves me well in my job. I can be friendly and warm and understanding when talking to someone, all the while knowing my office is going to nail them to the wall. Dishonest? Manipulative? Maybe.

I also tend to be understanding and forgiving to a fault.

But, like you, I can be very direct and “hard” when pushed. I’ve done that with H before after episodes. But eventually, that goes away, his contrition ends and we end up in the same cycle. I can’t change him. But I can hold firm to my end of the rope.

Couple things I have learned and "taken to heart".  When being in a r/s with a pwBPD a lot of preconceived notions of what is and isn't acceptable need to be swept away...be more pragmatic...if it works it works..shrug and move on.  Take lots of things less personally..etc etc.   Might even be true that "most" of my work as been on this side.

I've also learned that for things your values and beliefs don't allow you to compromise on...you can't give an inch...hold firm.  No mixed signals.  Many times "no" serves as a complete sentence.

"They" have to know that when you take that stance...it is an unassailable brick wall. 


So...we should probably talk as a group and ultimately Ozzie will have to decide where she puts homicidal threats. 

Either it goes in the category of "that's just him" and she works on being less triggered and less exposure

or

It goes in the "this isn't going to work long term" and someone other than me will be changing..or else (again..not communicated to him in this way...but that's the internal monologue of Ozzie)

My vote is firmly for homicidal threats being something like suicide threats that just aren't tenable in any form whatsoever over the long term. 

We also know getting from here to there with either pay Ozzie takes is not going to be pleasant...but will be "worth it" in the end.

There are risks with either approach.

For the "don't take him seriously approach"...what if it turns out you should have taken him seriously..and a loved one is actually hurt or worse.

For the "not going to accept this long term"...you may be faced with him deciding with actions and words that "I will make these threats until the day I die...I will not change.." which may lead to the end of the relationship...although it will free Ozzie from the impact of those threats.

No guarantees, although my "bet" is that he caves and does what is required to keep the relationship with Ozzie.

Best,

FF

Delurking to talk about the homicidal threats. My H had a lot of spoken HI, and I got a lot of good feedback here on steps i should take. Among other things, I mentioned it to my T, who then reported it to my H’s T. I was dismayed when his T told my T he had never heard about this before,, when I had called him and repeated the graphic details of what my H had told me he was going to do to a friend. I don’t know how you forget that. Anyway, both Ts had nothing specific to offer as to what to do, and my H’s T told him I told my T about the HI. When my H confronted me, in a rage, that I had talked behind his back, he’s allowed to “vent” to his wife, how could I think he was serious (I’m sure this sounds familiar!), I decided I wasn’t backing down. HI is NOT normal, and it is not okay with me. I told him that if trained professionals didn’t know how to deal with it, how was supposed to? I told him that if I heard any further HI I would not hesitate to call for help. He believed me. Amazingly, I’ve never heard another vocalized HI again. I did the same thing for his suicidal ideation several months later when he brought the belts to show me he was going to hang himself. His  SI is now inferred, not directly stated. I’ll take that improvement for the time being.

All of this is scary, and I’m so sorry for all of these struggles. My experience drove home that my H CAN control some of his behavior. And if he truly can’t, he’s then dangerous enough that making those calls for help are absolutely necessary.

I appreciate that insight and experience, Ray. Thank you!

I’ll have to think about where I put his HI. I don’t like it. But I also think it’s him just verbalizing frustration. I don’t know. I have a lot to think through as far as what I can stand and what I can’t. I do know I don’t want to listen to that talk and the name-calling anymore. Honestly, it makes me think less of him and makes me less likely to really listen to his point of view.

I would encourage you to put HI in the same category as SI.

If you hear it...you call in the Calvary...EVERY TIME.

Yep..he will flip out and accuse and...

Honestly..this protects you as much as him.

1.  We know it's not healthy
2.  We know we aren't trained for this.
3.  How do we feel if we "give a pass" and he completes it.

Best,

FF