More SS-related drama

[Ozzie101]

I’ve suspected for the last few months that H is having some abandonment/enmeshment/push-pull related to SS10.

SS was always a dad’s boy, even though H was the stricter parent. For the last year or so, though, he’s shown a mild preference for being at Ex’s. I suspect some of that has to do with the fact that Ex is constantly buying him things and getting whatever takeout he wants, while those things don’t happen much here. But I wouldn’t be surprised if H’s moodiness and outbursts (which are never aimed at SS) are a part of it.

H gets very worked up about things and has lately begun making comments that he’s this close to just telling Ex she can have SS full time.

I mostly keep my mouth shut — or try to.

The latest drama is tennis. As a gift for SS, Ex’s parents wanted to pay for SS to take group tennis lessons over the summer. H wasn’t thrilled but said ok. Next weekend, a week SS is with us, H has an unexpected Friday off. So, he texted Ex that if SS’s team loses his Little League tournament, he might take him out of town for a long weekend, missing Thursday evening’s tennis. She said fine. SS may be disappointed but that would be H’s to deal with.

H called me already on the way to a rage. I agreed that if it’s his week, it’s up to him what happens. He wanted me to tell him what he should say. I said I couldn’t tell him what to say to her but I was sure he would handle it well.

Bad answer.

He immediately launched into how unhelpful I am and how he just needs to talk to other people, not me. I said that might be good to get other opinions. He then warned me that all this could affect us and our livelihood because it will end up in court with us paying child support. I said we’d face whatever happened.

He ended up deciding to leave the house before I could get home and said he doesn’t know when he’ll return. I came home and did some chores and relaxed.

Do I think it will turn litigious? No. He and Ex have always worked well together and cooperated on kid stuff. What I suspect is going on? H is jealous of and threatened by his former in-laws. SS is an only child and only grandchild and has a close relationship with Ex’s parents — particularly her father. H has always talked about how much he dislikes them. (They’ve always been warm, friendly and welcoming to me but I keep my opinions there to myself.) He’s gotten more negative, though, lately.

Today, when I said, “Well, you just want to take SS for a short, fun trip. You haven’t been able to do that for a long time thanks to Covid.” He replied that that wasn’t all. He wants to mess up the tennis lesson and get in the way of it. He wants to do everything he can to scuttle SS’s relationship with his GF.

This is all familiar to me.

It does concern me. I think SS has problematic attitudes and behaviors and I have mixed feelings about him a lot of the time. But he’s a kid. He doesn’t deserve to be put in a situation like H is increasingly moving toward. Not that I think he can stop SS from having that relationship. At 10, it’s already well-formed.

He also kept reiterating how busy he had been today with work and he hadn’t eaten. Yeah, that makes him crankier but not eating is his choice. Even super-busy, there’s time to pop downstairs for an apple or a Pb sandwich. It kind of feels like he’s excusing himself when he does that or looking for sympathy.

Anyway, he’s out now. I’m hoping he’s able to settle himself down and get into a clearer headspace.

I didn’t engage in arguments. I didn’t let him guilt or threaten ne into rescuing it solving. So I’m thinking it was semi-successful?

[Ozzie101]

Well, I spoke too soon.

He called later worked up on a lather about work. Wanting me to “give him permission” to quit. Then furious for my not telling him.

Then he went back to my parents’ friends and how they screwed him at his last job and until he puts a gun to their heads and kills them he’ll never be over it. He also never wants to have anything more to do with my parents and doesn’t want me to either. I told him he can do what he chooses but, no, I won’t stop seeing my parents.

I ended the conversation. He came home and said he wasn’t finished so I left.

I feel utterly confused and defeated. Am I being unreasonable? Are my parents horrible people for not dropping their friends if 40 years over H’s job? To be honest, yeah, a part of me thinks he was partially responsible for what happened. I don’t know. He keeps accusing me of using him. Of hurting his feelings. Of taking him for what I can get. He hasn’t mentioned this in months and now it comes up again. Apparently someone saw a post on Facebook and told him about it. He keeps talking about how he would do all kinds of things for my family but they won’t do anything for him.

It’s just so much more complicated than that.

These things just keep happening and I just can’t keep it up. I honestly don’t know why I’m hanging on other than fear of the unknown or of the pain and difficulties that would come from divorce.

I want to be helpful. I want to do the right thing. I don’t want him to be hurt. But my gut just doesn’t think it’s/he’s right.

[formflier]

Then he went back to my parents’ friends and how they screwed him at his last job and until he puts a gun to their heads and kills them he’ll never be over it. 

This is an escalation..is it not?

How many other times has he threatened murder?

Circling back to earlier threads...how he "had no idea how to change", how did your follow up conversations go?

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

It is escalation — sort of. He’s said things like that before but it has increased. He always backtracks later. But the violent verbiage and name-calling are frequent when he’s in a rage.

This morning he was calm, rational and contrite. Again says he doesn’t know why he gets that way. I asked him how he plans to address stopping it and changing the pattern. He didn’t know. Said the drugs and therapy don’t work. He tries mindfulness exercises to calm down when something sets him off but it never works. He needs to scream and yell.

I said ok, what’s preventing him from doing that — behind a closed door or alone in his car? He said he could try that.

I was very firm that I will not participate anymore. If he calls and I can tell he wants to rage, I will hang up. If he comes hone and insists on keeping it going, I will leave.

He keeps saying the things he says (well, most of them) are not things he really thinks or feels. I think he does feel some of these things — just not up that level.

He doesn’t have another P appointment until August but said he would look into an earlier one.

I really don’t know. We’ve had these talks before and then something sets him off. But if I can stick to my plan, at least I can be spared.

[Cat Familiar]

Well perhaps you can be spared, but is this the way you really want to live?

Regarding your SS’s contact with relatives, tennis lessons, and friends, it seems your husband is jealous of anything that doesn’t involve him and wants to isolate SS, just like he tries to do with you. It’s a typical abuser move to separate the target from outside influence and support.

Then, there’s the all or nothing thinking. When SS is behaving more independently, your husband is ready to surrender custody to the ex. In other words, how SS and you respond to him is all about him. He’s not seeing you as separate entities, but rather as how you serve him, or not.

[formflier]

I think you need to get him out of the house for a cup of coffee or milkshake..something like that.

Then ask him "Do you want to change?".

If he doesn't know...or dodges...well, that's your answer.

If he does want to change, then the condition for you sticking around is you sit in office with him and P can come up with a plan (if there is one) eliminate threats of murder/bodily harm/ and the like from  your relationship.

Here is the thing..if he is contrite/remorseful/sorry he should go along.

If those things are being misinterpreted and he is just emotionally exhausted and starting the build up cycle to more threats...I think you can find that out TODAY.

 

This is hard stuff.  Alarming stuff because I don't recall this level of vitriol/threatened violence previously (perhaps I missed it...)

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

*Wanting me to “give him permission” to quit. Then furious for my not telling him.

*my parents’ friends and how they screwed him at his last job and until he puts a gun to their heads and kills them he’ll never be over it.

*He also never wants to have anything more to do with my parents and doesn’t want me to either.

*He keeps accusing me of using him.

*Of hurting his feelings.

*Of taking him for what I can get.

*He keeps talking about how he would do all kinds of things for my family but they won’t do anything for him.

Do you see a pattern in these thoughts and accusations, Ozzie?

[Ozzie101]

I asked him directly if he wants to change. He said yes, that he doesn’t want to be like this. I said I would like to sit in on his next p appointment and he said sure. It’s not for another month but he said he can try to get in before. The guy doesn’t spend much time talking to him and he said he doesn’t think it would be terribly helpful but I said I want to anyway.

The vitriol has always been there. But, yes, I think it’s gotten more frequent.

There’s definitely a pattern of victimhood. Everything that happens is centered on him. And everyone’s motives are always bad. People who annoy or hurt him do it on purpose. People’s intentions are malicious.

There’s also the abandonment fear. People are going to leave him. To discard him.

When he’s at baseline most of these things never come up. He still has a negative view of people. But it’s not yo the same degree. It’s like he gets triggered and negative emotions take over.

He seems to think people are spending a lot of time thinking about him — either how to get him or just dwelling on him. I’m reminded of a quote from the show Schitt’s Creek: “people aren’t thinking about you the way you’re thinking about you.”

[ForeverDad]

These days, these recent years, making that sort of threats can get him in tons of hot water.  No one can be sure what's really going on inside someone's head.  Even if he really is only blowing off steam, he needs to realize some things said while 'venting' simply can't be unsaid.  And if law enforcement or others learn of this, there may be no undoing it.

[Ozzie101]

True, ForeverDad. I believe he only says these things to or around me. For the most part, his rages aren’t known to anyone else as he’s usually able to keep things (mostly) under control. I do believe there have been a couple of flare-ups at work and his long-time friends know he has a temper, but none of them know what really happens.

[formflier]

Wasn't he essentially fired for these rages at the church job? 

Here is the thing...I "see" you sitting down with his P and saying.

My husband says he wants to change his rages...his rages have gotten him fired and he is now threatening to murder my family while raging and then seems remorseful later.

My husband says nothing works and he has no idea how to change this behavior.

Is this something you and your mental health colleagues can address and try to make better?

Then ask follow up questions like "how long"?  What will my hubby need to do?  What will I need to do?

I would also ask if his P was aware this type of thing had been going on (essentially figure out how seriously your hubby has been portraying this to them)

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

I’m not sure what got him fired. It’s equally as likely that it was the change of senior pastor. That’s pretty standard procedure. I do think he pushed back on things and wasn’t easy to deal with. But I don’t know if there were rages. It’s possible there were.

He made the murder comments about my parents’ friends, not my family — not that that makes it ok at all.

Those are some good suggestions for what to say and ask.

I wish I knew what’s causing the escalation and increase in frequency. It’s gotten to where he can’t go more than a week. He said it himself yesterday — he keeps setting goals for himself on not blowing up. But he can’t even make it a week.

[ForeverDad]

For the most part, his rages aren’t known to anyone else as he’s usually able to keep things (mostly) under control.

And that, among other reasons, is why he feels free to "let go" in your presence and on you.  He has known you have felt in an obligated relationship and reluctant to reveal what he has said and done.

I wish I knew what’s causing the escalation and increase in frequency. It’s gotten to where he can’t go more than a week. He said it himself yesterday — he keeps setting goals for himself on not blowing up. But he can’t even make it a week.

Without improvement in meaningful therapy, the behaviors worsen over time.  It's not you or anyone else, it's him.  However, you setting proper boundaries, which you must, has revealed how he can't handle boundaries reasonably normal people can.

[Ozzie101]

That’s most likely true all around, ForeverDad. He’s told me before that he wasn’t always like this. I think that’s true to an extent, but I believe the seeds were there. He used to explode at or about his parents. His Ex has said he used to have out-sized reactions to things. Close friends have seen him rant. But I don’t think any of them have witnessed or dealt with the full bore of his dysregulating or decompensating.

There have been a couple of times when he was “off” (which isn’t the same as one of his rages — this is when his eyes change and it’s as if someone else is at the wheel) when he was around a close friend or his Ex. I could tell the friend knew something was wrong but H kept it more together. This friend is the only one aware of what we went through 3 years ago (H told him) and the friend told me that H had a temper but he’d never seen him be the way he was being described. With the Ex, I wasn’t there and it was a quick two-minute meeting at a baseball game but H told me later that she point-blank asked him “What’s wrong with you?”

His issues right now seem to center on his job and I suspect he fears being fired again. There’s also stress and bitterness because he’s not the boss this time around and he doesn’t have some of the perks from that old job. There are also a lot of last-minute projects and crises and having to fix things a former employee did wrong. He says he complains to friends and they all ask what I say about it and he says I can’t help.

He’s done that many times before — tell me what other people think of me to get a reaction. It doesn’t work anymore because I know I can’t know what they’ve really said or heard, and their opinions don’t particularly matter if I feel like I’m doing the right thing. Yet I can’t help but second-guess myself. Am I being cold and heartless by refusing to tell him he should quit? By not being more “helpful” (whatever that means)? I feel like I’m setting boundaries and that adults should handle their own jobs. I’m here for discussion and brain-storming, of course.

I don’t know. I just have this fear that everything is becoming more and more normalized for me. Like it’s normal for me to take my glasses every time I leave for work and having the numbers of a couple of hotels programmed into my phone just in case I have to stay elsewhere for a night.

[I Am Redeemed]

The second guessing myself kept me really stuck for a long time in my relationship. My ex said and did a lot of the exact same things your h says to you. The difference is that my ex would escalate to physical violence quickly during a rage. Not all the time, but many times.

He had a way of framing things as me "not helping"; other people were saying that as his wife I should be "helping". I second guessed myself so much that I didn't know what was helping, what was enabling, and what was just unreasonable demands on me. It was very confusing and over three years out, it's much easier to look back and see where I got sucked into caretaking while he deflected responsibility. But in the fog of the relationship, it was so hard.

No, you're not heartless for refusing to give him the okay to quit. He seems to want to quit every time he has a situation that involves normal adult stress. If you say no, he will blame you, if you say yes, he will blame you. It's his job. He's an adult and he has to take responsibility for the decision to quit.

He doesn't seem to want a supportive partner. He wants someone who takes all the responsibility and makes him feel better because he can't handle the normal adult stress of life.


I think there's a commonality between him saying you don't help and him saying that therapy and meds don't help. I think "helping", to him, means alleviating all his stress. He probably wanted the therapist to "fix" his problems without having to do anything himself to exact behavioral change. Therapy doesn't just magically make you happy and feel good all the time. It doesn't take away the normal stress of life. Therapy gives you tools to use to manage your own emotional distress.

Essentially, that's what you've been trying to do for him...help him use tools for managing emotional distress and using empathetic listening to offer support.

It's not enough for him, and neither is therapy, because it doesn't take away all his negative feelings.

His issues are not the job, the new house, his SS, your parents friends, or you. His issues are a deeply rooted sensitivity to rejection and fear of abandonment, and an attitude that the world must coddle and cater to him.

Yes, your "normal" will include having a safety plan in your back pocket at all times as long as these behaviors continue. That's very difficult and can wear on your emotional and mental wellbeing. Self care is going to be essential for you.

I can't remember if we've talked about this before...have you ever read "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft? I recommend it if you haven't.

[Ozzie101]

Thank you, Redeemed. I agree with your assessment.

He wants to be rescued from stress or responsibility. When he’s very upset, he’ll lash out at me for not helping more with SS or dealing with Ex. That’s most definitely not my responsibility and I’ve always refused to do more than what I feel is appropriate. SS is his child. Not mine. I can do some things but many things? Way out of my bounds.

Two-three years ago he and I were talking about therapy and his frustrations with it. At that time, he said he wanted a therapist to tell him how to remove stressors from his life. I told him that’s not how it works. That therapy can help you learn to manage it better. But you can never completely eliminate stressors. His T at the time said the same and he seemed to accept it but was obviously disappointed.

He says he doesn’t really want to talk about the past or feelings. He just wants someone to tell him what’s wrong and what to do to fix it.

My suspicion is what’s wrong is far deeper and more complicated than he thinks and it will take much more than a simple fix. He wouldn’t like that — he doesn’t have the patience.

I have read that book. It was very enlightening (and disheartening). Currently, I keep it in a drawer in my office along with SWOE, Should I Stay Or Should I Go? (also by Bancroft) and my physical journal (I have a password-protected one on my phone). I pull it out for refreshers on occasion. I’ve been doing that more lately.

And you’re correct about the ultimate issue. There will always be something new. Something else. Because “it” isn’t “it.”

[Cat Familiar]

My question for you, Ozzie, is: What are the positives for you in this relationship?

[Ozzie101]

Positives:

When things are normal, we work well together. We enjoy the same things (travel, music, similar TV shows).

I appreciate the companionship.

It sounds bad, but I appreciate the financial security.

I like having a partner. Much of the time we can function as a team and work together.

What I’m trying to figure out now is if that’s enough. If the negatives outweigh those positives. And if the positives are really real or if I’ve normalized some abnormal things.

[formflier]

Note:  This is very much like in my relationship, although in my r/s there are additional bio children as compared to the step child situation in yours.

Have I eliminated "BPD" from my r/s...nope, likely never will.  However I have strong boundaries and "it" rarely impacts the basic functions of the r/s.

It appears to me that both of you guys are struggling to contain this, although he definitely is trying to "hand responsibility" to you for himself.

Are there ways in which you are trying to hand him responsibility for decisions in your life?


Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

I may not be understanding your question, FF, so forgive me if I’m off-base.

Looking at things, I’ve been passive. Waiting for his actions to react.

In a way, I think I make him responsible for my happiness and security by letting both center on his moods. I think I’m making some progress there but there’s a long way to go.

I make choices based on his possible reactions. But, ultimately, I am responsible for what I do and don’t do. I have to make sure I own that and don’t slip into “I have to do this to keep him from getting mad.”

[formflier]

I was a bit purposefully vague.

Ultimately..whose responsibility is it for the (fill in the blank) that goes into your ears and mind?

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

By and large, mine. I can choose to listen/participate or not.

Sometimes I’ve felt like I had no choice (and a couple of times I didn’t because I literally couldn’t get away) but, ultimately, I play into the dysfunction by allowing him to rant and rage at me without removing myself.

[formflier]

Sometimes I’ve felt like I had no choice (and a couple of times I didn’t because I literally couldn’t get away) but, ultimately, I play into the dysfunction by allowing him to rant and rage at me without removing myself.

So, in those instance where you couldn't get away, did you call for assistance (pretty sure I know the answer/kinda remember the incidences).

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

I didn’t. In one case, he had taken my phone and I couldn’t. There was a repairman there and I asked him to call for help but he didn’t do it. Other times, I came close but chickened out for fear of escalating or being seen as overreacting.

I’ve allowed a lot of this to happen. My over-active guilt complex and helper personality combined to keep me here and present. Somehow, I bought into the story that if I don’t listen, don’t “help”, don’t rescue, I’m being a bad wife. Looking back at conversations over time, I can see the patterns and manipulations. And I’ve fallen for it. Early on, before I started to understand what I was dealing with, I genuinely believed I was failing as a wife. None of the marriages I’d witnessed up close had been like that. H said it was my fault. It must be. This site helped me get some clarity. There’s a part of me that still feels responsible for his feelings and actions. It became so engrained in those events from a few years ago.

It’s actually hard for me sometimes to see where the boundaries should be. Am I being rational and appropriate? Or selfish and hard-hearted? I know what I think. But at times I can’t even trust myself.

[Cat Familiar]

There’s so many potential triggers for self doubt in these relationships. They seem to follow a familiar pattern.

You fall in love with someone who seems to be so compatible with you, but you are unaware that they are working hard to mirror you, enjoy what you enjoy, share your activities and values.

After they feel somewhat secure that you are committed to the relationship, they show their unfiltered side, which isn’t about you, but about their own unrequited needs and emotional dysfunction.

That you hadn’t seen this side previously, prior to making a significant commitment to them, can feel as if one did not have the proper due diligence in making one of the most important life decisions one will ever make.

Then there’s the faith that love will make things better and if I just try hard enough, I can repair this relationship.

Problem is, that strategies that might work with an emotionally healthy partner completely backfire when used with a BPD partner. (I thought I had some pretty good people skills...what am I doing wrong?)

Then there’s the blame aspect. When all your attempts to soothe them and fix things not only don’t work, but make them mad and accuse you of not caring, then your self esteem is further undermined.

So it’s no wonder you are having some self doubt.

[formflier]

For me, especially when I was first "making changes"...it seemed if I "felt" I was being a selfish jerk, that I was about right on my approach.

Perhaps that will work for you as well.

Now I usually don't "feel" much..I just realize there is a boundary...hold it and grab some popcorn to see if there is a show.  It's usually over pretty quick.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

For me, especially when I was first "making changes"...it seemed if I "felt" I was being a selfish jerk, that I was about right on my approach.

   That too, and I felt like I was on the road to becoming a narcissist.

[formflier]

  That too, and I felt like I was on the road to becoming a narcissist.

And..one of the reasons I continue my r/s with a psychologist, because I want to make sure that my approaches are "in the healthy range"...even though they "feel" narcissistic.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

I do start wondering if I’m a narcissist! Glad to know I’m not alone!

Had a good T appointment today. She was a little concerned that I’m starting to doubt myself on some things, though she says that’s normal under the circumstances. She was also in favor of my blocking his phone and/or going to a hotel. She said it might lead to a positive pattern change (or might not).

Other good talk. It was very helpful today.

[Ozzie101]

So last night we had a conversation as part of a new plan: discuss our day every day.

He asked if my T had any helpful input. I told him she thought his idea about nightly talks about our day was a good one. He asked what about the rage incidents. I said she also thought my plan to end conversations and (if necessary) stay elsewhere was also good.

He stayed calm and together but he replied and he wasn’t so sure anymore that that plan will work. “It’s not going to stop my anger or those things from happening.” I said I knew that. That’s not the purpose. It’s to remove myself from the situation — to protect me and our relationship.

We discussed it a little more before watching tv and going to bed but I could tell he was very “down.”

Points made or discussed:
1) When triggered, he has a strong physical reaction (heart pounding, getting very hot). There’s no build-up.
2) He knows he overreacts to a lot of things. When he cools off, he looks back and thinks he was silly to get so upset, or realizes the person didn’t intend it the way he took it.
3) He thinks he just shouldn’t talk to me about serious or important stuff. He should find someone else to vent to.

What I got out of it:
He thinks his episodes are just venting and letting off steam. (Made that pretty clear.) I think he thinks I’m taking things wrong. He kept talking about how different people react differently and how one person can think the other person’s way is strange. I told him this is more than that but it was obvious he didn’t buy what I said.

That doubting part of me that keeps getting bigger starts to wonder: am I overreacting to him? Are his rages and episodes normal venting? I don’t think so. I look back to some of the things he’s done and said, listened to some recordings, and I just can’t imagine those things are normal. Yet this nagging voice keeps asking: am I being unfair? Oversensitive?