BPDFamily.com

My story is a little different than most on this board - my primary issue is my BPD MIL and her enmeshed relationship with her son, my H. I don't think he has BPD but he is awfully stuck to mommy and thinks her behavior is normal, and sometimes he exhibits the same behaviors she does.

After many years of her meddling and boundary-busting behavior, I established a boundary last year that my visits with her need to center around an activity. I don't want her staying overnight at our house because it leaves open time, which spells disaster. She lives 2 hrs away. He talks to her on the phone every day and drives to see her 2-3 times a month.

My mom, who lives 10 hrs away, and who I haven't seen for almost 2 years, came for a visit a few weekends ago. I knew this would trigger MIL, thus, H, who has since been pushing to have his mom visit for an overnight. I maintain day visits only and he thinks that is an offensive suggestion. In reality I think it creates anxiety for him, because he can't tell his mom 'no.'

Him: I don't understand why you're still holding a grudge. It's been 3 years already. Why can't you let it go? It's completely unreasonable. (Fallout happened in July 2019, so 2 yrs, but I didn't correct him.)
Me: I have limitations, as does your mom. My boundaries are in place for a reason. I'm happy to explain if it will help.
Him: I don't want to hear your reasons.
Me: I've been thinking about ways we can make a day visit work for your mom. (I made two suggestions.)
Him: *ignores suggestions* I just don't get it, I don't understand. If I understood, I wouldn't resent you.
Me: I've made a lot of efforts to try and make this work out with your mom.
Him: I know you have, sometimes you've gone above and beyond.

Later...

Him: You sent her the email and she apologized. (ie, why can't you just let it go?)
Me: What email?
Him: You sent the email of all the things she'd done wrong.
Me: I didn't send that to her. You asked me to make that list, and I only showed it to you and the counselor. The only email to her was one you sent, asking her not to share our personal information with her friends, and letting her know that we wouldn't be asking her for money anymore. To my knowledge, she didn't respond.
Him: It's been four years, I can't remember everything now. (the time moved back lol)

At one point I thought about asking if he's ever resented his mom the way he resents me. I couldn't find a good time to ask, but I think I will. I suspect that some of his anger is directed towards his mom and her inability to "let it go," but he doesn't have permission to get upset with her.

I'm going through so much with my kids at the moment, it is not easy to stay centered. I know what's true. This is their drama, and I do not have to join their circus. We have a family counselor and have an appt to see him again. I'm just tired today and needed to vent.

You are tired and need to vent about how your husband keeps testing your boundary of not having your MIL stay overnight in your home. It is totally understandable that you feel the way you do, and how you understand that it would make things so much worse for you if your MIL had too much free reign in your home to act out, which she would with an overnight stay. There are so many of us who post here on PSI, who are exhaused  and hurt by the continued push of the disordered people in our lives to ignore our boundaries. From past experiences, we know it only gets worse if we give in to what they want.
You are in a particular difficult situation with your husband. His mother has controlled him since childhood. I have witnessed this with several men in my extended disordered family who live under the reign of their mothers. Neither of my brothers got married because my mother wanted them to be her tools for life. My BIL lives under the reign of my sister who has never has put him first under any circumstances.
We are here to listen and support you. There are some days when the same old dynamics are just too much and so frustrating.

Thank you zachira. It's just nice to put this somewhere.


It's interesting that you say this, Z. In this same conversation he said I was being controlling. The only thing I'm controlling is her access to me. I feel like he's projecting his mom's behavior onto me. He genuinely does not see her for who she is.

It is hard to see BPD's impact on the entire family, isn't it? I hate that your brothers never felt they could have a life of their own.

Yes, your H is confusing "control" with "boundaries." Anything you do that restricts what he can do with or for his mother feels controlling to him -- even though he actually has great freedom to be with his mother in numerous other ways. That interpretation is his to own. What is puzzling is that he says he could accept it if he understood, but he flat refuses to listen to you explain.

First let me say I am truly sorry for what you are going through.  I can hear the distress.  Sometimes we just get depleted with the negative emotional energy required to manage a relationship with people who have unhealthy ways of thinking and seeing and feeling.  I'm glad you've posted here PJ.  We're hearing you, and here to support.

As I was reading your conversation, it struck me that he is projecting his mom's controlling behavior onto you.  Then I read this:
Exactly. My theory is that he's doing this, because he feels safer telling you that you are controlling, than telling his mother she is controlling.  He's conflicted, and feels trapped, so he needs to blame someone to solve his problem.  His psyche is defending his personal safety by believing you are the controlling one, because it is too dangerous for him to address the real problem - his mother.

You mention the family counsellor PJ.  Do you think the counsellor completely understands the dynamic?  I am wondering if there also an opportunity to see the family counsellor individually (you and H each have your own session with counsellor before coming together again?) , so that you can say what needs to be said freely, without fear of repercussions?  This would give the counsellor time to think and strategize...

Alternatively, is it possible to show this conversation to the family counsellor ahead of time?  Email it?  If not, would you feel safe to share this conversation with the counsellor with your H present at the appointment?

I just want to say how skilled I think you were to manage that conversation so well.  That must have been so hard to do, to stay in the moment.  You wove your way through a minefield.  

Keep staying in your lane.  A very similar thing happened with my uBPD mom several years ago when my FIL came to visit for several weeks (he lived about 22 hours away).  He was mid-80's, and had dementia so he was very high maintenance.  My mom wasn't getting the attention she was used to from me and H.  She showed up at the house one day, and had an earth shattering meltdown.  It was the only time in her life she ever raged at me in the presence of any other person, but this happened in front of FIL, H, and D22.  My point is that after FIL's visit was over, and a decent amount of time had passed, her emotions eventually settled somewhat.  Your case is more difficult, because the issue of your MIL coming for night is always the elephant in the room, and is always present.  I see the overnight problem as being the "wedge issue" that your mother-in-law uses to divide you and H.  It gives her a tremendous amount of power.  She probably resents you for taking her son away from her, and she's never going to let go of that.

I really hope something productive comes from your family counselling session.

This, GaGrl. At first I thought he meant 'agree,' but he insisted he meant understand. Maybe he's so entrenched in his mom's way of thinking and doing, he genuinely can't grasp the concept of doing it another way? Like I'm speaking another language and it sounds jumbled to him? I don't know.

Our conversation last night started with me talking about me missing my kids.

Him: I know you blame me.
Me: (me, kicking myself for sharing, because I knew better than to expect empathy) I don't blame you. I don't blame them. All of us have responsibility and need to accept our part. I don't find blame helpful at all.
Him: Disagree, I think people are to blame.
Me: I get resentful when I blame. I don't want to get resentful.
Him: Interesting. I get resentful when I don't understand.

Thanks so much M.


Ok. This makes so much sense. I forget the exact moment but his sense of internal conflict was so apparent to me yesterday - like he was genuinely confused because he hears his mom's voice, but mine makes sense too. Pressing him would make him panic. Maintaining the boundary calmly offers him some measure of stability, even though he hates it.

I do. This guy actually knows our marriage counselor, who we quit seeing because she was only offering telehealth appts and that just did not bode well. Too much was missed. I'm hopeful that they've talked, I invited him to. I had an individual session with him. I suspect he's a little more confrontational than our last counselor, which actually works better for H.

I'm sure MIL does resent me. I get the sense she's jealous of me and that feels icky. H told me once that his mother has never liked anyone he's dated or married, that all parents say, "No one is good enough for my baby." (*WTH?* ) I pointed out that I liked the way he was always supportive of and kind to the guys that his oldest daughter dated, and that my mom was the same way with me and my siblings. (*no, it's not normal, you don't display that behavior, and it's possible for moms to love their in-laws*)

I know this is hard for him. Y'all have really helped me understand how difficult it is for him. You've also given me courage to sustain boundaries with him. Not sure where I'd be without you.

Sometimes I write things down without a filter. I don't send them. I wrote this to him this morning and it makes me laugh. Is it funny? Yup, to me, because today I am SO tired of filtering everything I say. :) :) :)

"Sometimes I wish you’d just poop or get off the pot. You’re going to live blaming me for the rest of your life? That’s the cowardly way out. It saves you from having to look at your mom’s behavior, and how you contributed to the issues we now have. We all have limitations. None of us are enjoying this. We all have a responsibility to take care of ourselves and make the best of a sh**ty situation."

That made me laugh PJ.  It also reminded me of how when I was a child, the tension would build and build and build in the house with my mom, until finally my dad (who was a gentle, kind and generous person) would lay down the law, and say "enough", and whatever else he had to say.  I only remember him doing that a few times in my life because he was such a patient person.  It seemed she needed that boundary, because after that things would settle out.  That's my child's memory of it.  I'm not suggesting this would work with your H, but it seems that while you have boundary challenges with MIL, H also pushes boundaries with you with his needling and blaming about the issue of her staying for night.  Could a boundary be MIL staying for night is not up for discussion?  MIL has played the overnight issue card so well.  I just read your "alternate reality" story on the other board, and I am more convinced than ever that this is the wedge issue she has sunk her teeth into to create conflict between you and H, to triangulate him, and force him to take her side, in an attempt to make you look terrible, and have more of him to herself? Is she jealous of you?


Wow, just wow.  Juxtapose that with the recent conversations between you and H...which are on this thread.

Poop or get off the pot sounds more reasonable.

Methuen, it's interesting that your dad sometimes drew a line and said, "Too much." My grandfather did this sometimes with my uNPD/ BPD step-grandmother -- it was legendary in my family that he once snapped and said, "When will you let go of your green monster? You don't need to be jealous of everyone and everything." Wow. In front of others, no less.

Interestingly, my father did the same with my step-grandmother. She was only 8 years older than my dad, her son-in-law. Sometimes, and would start ramping up when we were visiting, and Dad would look at her and say, "That's enough, Dorothy." In his very stern, military voice. And it shut her down.

There must be a place for the simple -- Hey, just stop it.I

PJ,

Good job with boundaries..especially over time.  You are seeing the benefits of consistency.

That being said, things do change over time...the trick is for you to sort it out in your head..your values about where YOU want to go with this and what your new boundaries will look like (with some "ish" there).

Life has happened and your hubby and I think your r/s is ready for change...

pwBPD seem to love to "put us back on our heals", so when you can go after them with "healthy" and put them on their heals...I vote for got for it.

So...give your hubby options where you go out of your comfort zone, however he would have to go out of his...or HE CAN CHOOSE NO CHANGE.

1.  Encourage him to spend more time with his Mom by driving up day prior, spend the night...drive her down for the day...drive her back..spend the night...drive back home.   That solves his "legit" issue of it's a lot of driving in a day...and has YOU encouraging healthy...and boundaried...and "controlled" time with MIL.

or

FF's favorite

2.  You go pick her up and have him drive her home.  I would NOT recommend you drive her home...but I think you being in the position of "inviting AND bringing her to YOUR home" is powerful.

I can think of other options...but from my impression of your hubby...I think a dichotomous choice is best.

It's a day...you can do this...!

Best,

FF

I mean, I can see why it's effective. There's radical acceptance involved, and clear boundaries. lol tucking 'poop or get off the pot'  or somesuch into my toolbelt.


Exactly, FF...I channeled my BPD peeps and did exactly this. I've given him three options now.


He ignored this idea both times I suggested it, shaking his head and saying, "I don't understand."

I also suggested that H's daughter and fiance that live 10 minutes from her pick her up, bring her down for the day, we can take them all to a winery and hang out, and they can drive back. They just engaged, they've been meaning to come down, and we'll be planning a wedding sometime soon.

I've also suggested that we could always meet halfway. The funny thing about her driving is that she'll drive 1.5 hr to go see her friends where she used to live. But when I suggest meeting halfway, "I'm not asking my mom that." At this point I simply accept his response.
 

This one gets tricky. I don't mind driving but time alone with her is all sorts of red flags. Maybe I could take one or two of the kids. I am not putting myself in that position.

Just saw MIL at my stepdaughter's engagement party on Sat. H was very distant from me and was just weird. He seemed very anxious and wound up.

She seemed fine, very happy for a change. I was polite and looked out for her, helped get her a drink and occasionally held conversations with her when she was alone in the corner.

At one point, when we were waiting for the couple to arrive, she said something along the lines of, "Ohhhh I'll never forget waiting for (H and his ex) to arrive at the reception, they were so late because they HAD to stop to get changed. Right. Like they were getting changed. He told you about that didn't he?" At this point what she said was just registering. I nodded and said yes. H leaned over and loudly asked if I needed anything to drink, I said YES PLEASE. He mouthed, I'm sorry. You coulda knocked me over with a feather. He actually noticed.

I thanked him later for changing the subject and acknowledging it. That's all I needed.

I really like how you examined the picking MIL up idea..considered your boundaries...and added in kids.  That's smart..pragmatic.

If you have made the suggestions and they were dismissed...then really I think you drop it until he brings it up.  Perhaps then with a "which of the three ideas are you going with?" type of response.

The key is that he and MIL do most of the work. 

The you picking her up idea would have you doing "work"..but also has the biggest chance to "reset" or "move the line" in your r/s with hubby and/or MIL.

The reason I don't want you taking her back is "stuff" will have built up, so more chance for BPD weird stuff on the way back...as opposed to the excitement of an upcoming event.

Best,

FF

I like this response next time he says his mom isn't welcome and I hold grudges.

I have to give him some credit. He's the father of the bride with this upcoming wedding so will be expected to bear the financial load. In the past, he and MIL would have already worked out an agreement (without any feedback from me) about how they were going to pay. Whether it was a gift or a loan, H would be indebted and MIL would be 'such a great mom look how much she helped with the wedding.'

We've talked extensively about boundaries around money but I was nervous because as soon as he gets FOG from his mom, he caves. I brought it up with H last night and he has already planned how he's going to handle it - he's going to ask MIL to gift anything she wants to give directly to her granddaughter, and H will find a way to cover the rest. I put myself into the equation and made sure to let him know that I would help in any way that I could, that we are in this together.

Another funny thing that happened at the engagement party. MIL and H were standing together talking to someone, I was a few feet behind. I overheard her say that it was 'their daughter' that was getting married.

H: "Our daughter? No, it's my daughter."
MIL: "Oh yeah, she's my granddaughter, his daughter."

These small things are surprisingly comforting.

I think it is a good "sign" that your hubby has a plan. 

Remember, when he brings up in the future that you hold grudges/Mom isn't welcome...you need to pick one "message" and stick with it for that convo.

Options I see.

1.  Which of the three options are you picking?

2.  Oh, do you think it's time to reconcile the relationship?  (very important to use proper terms..her will want to "get over it"...don't go there)  Should he say yes..keep handing it back to him.  "What do you thing OUR conversation with your Mom will look like?"

3.  Stick with empathy...vice problem solving.  Perhaps even ask if that is most helpful "right now".

Switching gears.

How can you reinforce your hubby being proactive with boundaries about the money for wedding?

Best,

FF

Ahhhahaha this is great. 'Our conversation.' Yes this would be effective.

I had the opportunity to explain the reasons behind my no overnight boundary. (I shared them when I set the boundary but it's almost like his mom's story takes over and he forgets. He's also told me flat out that he's not interested in my reasons.) This time I shared that because we all have limitations (his, mine and hers), more unstructured time meant more conflict, and that for my part, I was committed to having more positive interactions with as little conflict as possible. Not the worst, he listened, but said he believes that I'm just holding a grudge. Cue the 'which solution do you prefer' or 'our conversation' lol

Yeah I'm a little concerned that he and his mom will talk and he'll come up with a new idea for finances. Checking in and staying present and engaged in the planning will help, I think.

We have a counseling session coming up. I'm pretty convinced that his mom's recent sadness, hence the pressure to visit us overnight, was triggered by her hearing about my mom's visit. I can't blame her. He insists on sharing everything and it's not fair to her.

How often do you and hubby go to counseling together?

I think it would be a good idea to write out..maybe to us..the reasons and boundary around MIL overnight visit.

If he probes again, you want to easily breeze through a couple of specifics..that point to the broad problem.  (don't I remember a "family bathroom" incident...?   :( )

Be ready to parry off "solving specifics" such as solving how to let you go to bathroom by yourself...instead letting that incident and others like it..paint the picture of the need for your boundary.

Best,

FF

Reason for the boundary: in marriage counseling we agreed that if I was accompanying him, visits would be short and structured. Our goal was to increase the number of positive interactions and reduce the chances of a negative one by structuring visits, specifically by setting start and end times and to center visits around an activity. I've visited her for holidays, a funeral, a grandkid's birthday and an engagement party. I also helped her pack up her house when she moved.

I don't accompany him on his "I'm just gonna go see mom" visits, which he makes several times a month.

For the first year, he told me she didn't want to visit because she doesn't feel welcome.

Last year, he started saying he really wants his mom to come visit. I panicked and wanted to say no, but I took a breath and decided to compromise reasonably. I said ok, but visits still need to be structured and focused on an activity, so no overnight. He became anxious/angry and said I was being ridiculous. He refused my offer and she never came.

I don't go into this with him, but overnight means downtime. Downtime highlights their enmeshment. He hovers, she talks about her deceased husband or her own death, he becomes sad. It is such a predictable cycle that frankly I can't handle. Their ideal version of me, I think, is one that plays audience to their show and claps when appropriate. I've tried a number of alternative responses. If I create diversions or a game to play, they refuse to participate. They likely sense me pulling away so I'm told I'm rude, dismissive and cold. If I remove myself and go to my room, MIL expresses hurt, he gets angry with me and I'm told I'm unwelcoming. I'm not as worried about what they think of me, but dealing with H's anxiety and anger is not something I have unlimited capacity for. I am trying to limit the stress it puts on my marriage. Overnights are a hard no.

Yes she walked in on me and just stood there talking to me. He admitted that 'was a little weird.'

It's a good idea to have a little line up of specific examples. I usually say, "She doesn't have a filter, calls me the wrong name, brings up your ex wife frequently, shares inappropriate and personal information with other family members."

My hope is that after he said ridiculous...you said..."like family bathroom time with MIL.." 

I totally get the vibe you are talking about where "downtime" and "relaxing" turns into dysfunction on center stage.  Very wise of you to proactively create a boundary and structure a good visit.

I don't think she will come again because if she does..on some level it will be admitting to the "need" for structure...  Do you think she ever admits it?

I know where I'm betting my money!

The key with the "ridiculous" thing is to say it in a genuinely puzzled way..."Oh...ridiculous like talking to your Mom while using the bathroom." 

Let him wrestle with the "truth" of his mom's behavior.

You are doing great with this... |iiii |iiii |iiii

Best,

FF

lol no...missed opportunity? :)


I can guarantee that he hasn't shared anything with her about structured visits. She has no idea why the visits are structured. I don't think she'll come, because I think the idea of having to explain why she can't spend the night causes WAAAAYYYY too much anxiety for him. Refusing to invite her means he can leave her thinking I'm the persecutor, which is the most comfortable space for him.

Interesting convo last night. I brought up BPD again, saying I'd been doing a lot of reading and studying over the past year. Here's kind of how it went:

Me: I really wish you'd look into BPD. It's helped me understand your mom.
Him: What is BPD again?
Me: It is usually rooted in trauma, and your mom has been through a lot. It is a response she's developed to try to meet her own needs. She doesn't have a strong sense of who she is.
Him: That's so true. Dad always defined who she was. Now that he's gone, she is lost.
Me: She also fears being alone, or being abandoned. This sometimes makes her act out - when she's afraid she has a strong reaction. The irony is that sometimes she acts out in ways that push people away instead of bringing them closer.
Him: That's true. She has done that.
Me:  I think the most important thing I learned is that when she is being hurtful or manipulative, it is likely because she's in a lot of pain, not because she is a malicious person. It still does a lot of damage, which is why they recommend setting firm boundaries.
Him: Mom talked to me after the engagement party. She said she can't even remember what she did and she just wants to put it behind her.
Me: I believe her when she says she can't remember. It's possible that the idea of causing pain to someone else is so painful for her that she blocks the memory of it. I'm not going to change my boundaries, though, because her behavior won't change. Even when I addressed behavior and she did remember, she didn't understand why it was problematic. I have limits. My goal is to support you in your relationship with her and minimize the negative interactions that separate us.
Him: She isn't going to change.
Me: Exactly. And I feel for her. I've worked hard to understand where she may be coming from. I don't expect her to change, and my boundaries are going to stay the same.

I'm taking this with a grain of salt, because all it will take to upend all of this is one conversation with his mom where she says, "I'm hurting" and he'll get upset with me again.

PJ, that was skillful handling of that conversation.  It was a rational and positive convo.  Planting seeds.  |iiii

thanks M  :hug:

y'all I am LIVID.

H came home from visiting his mommy all day, and part of their visit was a meeting with her financial counselor. She is apparently worth a lot of money. She told H she wants to buy him a truck.

"We" - like there is such a thing - sent her an email a year and a half ago letting her know that we were setting better financial boundaries. We wouldn't be accepting gifts from her, nor would we be taking out loans from her. This was a HARD habit for H to break. Mommy likes to give him stuff to keep him on the line, to keep him happy. H has done better over the years, hence the recent conversation about financing the wedding.

He comes home and is just in tears with gratitude. (insert eye rolling emoji here uuuggghhh this is so exasperating) I know EXACTLY what she's doing. If I fight, I lose. If I just accept it, I lose.

I asked him if we could wait to discuss it in counseling next week. He said, "Why? So we can get some random person's opinion?" lolllllll YES BECAUSE AT THIS POINT I TRUST ANYONE'S OPINION OVER YOURS.

He told me I don't like it because I don't like her. Like I said, that whole conversation we had yesterday? Out the window. I did not use SET or DEARMAN. I probably JADEd. I stayed calm and our conversation was blessedly interrupted when a kid walked in.

Back to values, back to boundaries...

"Darling, how does this proposal fit into our boundary (or statement) of several years ago that we would be financially independent?"

"Help me understand how this fits into our overall financial picture? "

My husband is a financial/investment advisor -- he would have LOTS of questions.

Is she doing this to bypass the wedding expense?

She is going to keep the truck in her name. (?)

And he is just going to drive her truck. (?)

When he told me and I hesitated, H's words to me were, "This gift doesn't have any strings attached." I don't think I've ever said that. Part of me wants to just let this play out.

This whole thing is bizarre to me. It bothers me that they make plans and I'm informed.

He's on all of her financial accounts too. They say it's so that he has access to all of it should she pass suddenly. If the rest of their relationship wasn't so yucky I don't think it would bother me. Again, just weirds me out.

"It bothers me that they make plans, and I'm informed."

Exactly.

Your financial participation in the marriage is being bypassed.

As to the truck, past the title and registration...who is carrying the insurance and liability on the vehicle? Who is "authorized" to drive it?

Too weird for me...

So...I would likely let this play out, with you interjecting some clear questions and getting clear answers. 

When they veer off the path...that's when lightbulbs will come on.

Who will be on the vehicle title?

Who will pay the insurance?

And...is it a "gift" of a truck or a "loan" of a truck...what are her expectations?  What are his expectations?  What are your expectations?

It's late...so perhaps this is raving lunatic FF...(I've been spraying walls at my sons house for a few hours)...but I would tell you that you can be "enthusiastic" about him accepting a GIFT...and that you are sure he would be enthusiastic AND appreciative of your support and show that with clarity.

Think through how things like this were used to "control" in the past.  Share a few things with us if you can.  That will help us clarify..what you need to clarify.

Best,

FF

She has 'given' us many things over the years. I put it quotes because it's never a free and clear gift. Here is why it gets tricky:

1. She's changed her mind and asked for them back.
2. She wants a say in how they're used, or what we do with them. Once I actually offended her by suggesting that I was going to refinish a bed that she'd 'given' us. She said "not until I die."
3. H has weird attachments to anything she gives. We have random wall hangings and other stuff she cleaned out when she moved sitting in our attic. H doesn't want to use it, but he says, "But they're mom's I'm not ready to get rid of them."
4. Gifts are used to obligate. I accepted gifts at the beginning out of politeness, even when I didn't want them. Sometimes she gave us money. I was always very grateful and would let her know how much I appreciated it. When things became tense between us, though, I was told I was being ungrateful because "look at everything she does for us."
5. H and I worked on an email that he sent her about a year ago asking her to stop sharing our personal information with her friends, and telling her that we were going to work on financial independence from her. I'm trying to find the email, but if memory serves, he was specific about accepting gifts of money and taking out loans. He has since paid off what he owed her.
6. While she liked me, MIL handed me money every time we visited. It was uncomfortable and tried to hand it back every single time. As things became tense, she didn't give me money. Next thing I know (because they talk about her death and her will all the time), H is telling me that his mom did not plan to give my kids anything from her will. I mean, I kind of get it. It's her money to do with as she pleases. Why announce that, though? My kids know NOTHING of the drama between us and when they see her, they chat like old times.
7. She was always set on giving all of the kids exactly the same amount of money for birthdays. Her income hadn't changed, but she started giving my kids less and less. Money was coming in envelopes, or was being handed to H's kids separately, so I'm fairly confident that she was giving them more.
8. She and H share more finances than he and I do. He's on all of her accounts. His and mine have always been separate...it's just something that's worked out really well for us. I trust him, and finances have not been a challenge at all. Money is a way they stay entangled. I don't think she's on his bank account, though.

Thanks for replying, both of you. I wrote down some questions last night as you suggested. I told him that I just wanted some time to think about it and talk about it, that it was really uncomfortable when decisions like this were made without talking to me. 

https://youtu.be/ZRfIMmc-EyM


Love this "attitude".  so grateful (that's going to be hard for you...but find it)...and then accept if it really is a gift...decline if it's not. 

Best,

FF

Makes sense. Great feedback. I love DR.

In my case it's a little trickier because the strings aren't defined ahead of time. H can say outright that there are no strings and technically he's right. I know from experience that the strings are the unspoken obligations and pressure, the connection between them that deepens.

I hold no power in this situation. H doesn't want me to be upset, but he is also going to do what they want to do. I'm trying to accept this reality and figure out how to at least not paint myself as more of a persecutor than I already am. I also want to be smart and find a way to get the 'no strings' thing in writing.

I read an article on generosity as manipulation. It says, "People who want to control others are trying to relieve the feeling that they’re lacking something." It's regressive, parents who do this can't see their children as anything other than children. They're threatened when their child tries to grow up, get space and pursue the regular trajectory of adult life.

I just wrote him an email outlining a list of questions. I also VERY briefly (using I statements) explained why I am concerned, giving 3 short, specific examples of how her past gifts have come with strings. I tried to keep it positive and show gratitude for her generosity.

I came across this and it's been really helpful.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=331852.0

Thanks again for your responses, all. It's incredibly helpful and stabilizing to hear your thoughts.  I'm very, very thankful for you.

Your husband seems to go back and forth between doing what his mother wants and what you want. His mother wants to control him. You are doing your best to teach him boundaries, have a healthy couple's relationship, and help him to be a mature man with his own identity. Maybe some individual therapy for your husband would help, if he would be willing to go.
You are doing an amazing job at setting boundaries. I feel sad for how tiring and frustrating this is for you.
My large dysfunctional family uses money as a means to control others. I was constantly turning down my mother's offers to give me money which I did not need. She was only able to see me as someone who was desperately poor, could not support myself, even though it was quite the opposite in reality. I would set a rule that you do not accept extravagant gifts from your MIL, and talk about this in couples therapy. Your therapist should understand what is an acceptable gift as there are specific rules in the code of ethics for therapists about what kind of gifts a therapist can accept from a client. When is the gift just a gift and when is it a means to change and control a relationship for the benefit of the gift giver? You are completely correct that taking the truck is going to just cause problems between you, your husband, and MIL.

"People who want to control others are trying to relieve the feeling that they’re lacking something."

Does that apply to your family too, z?

My H's Ex is a manipulative gift-giver. She gifts, then the gift somehow turns into a loan that must be paid back. My SD40 has learned this the hard way and no longer accepts gifts from her mother. So frustrating.

I would wonder how the truck gift would tie into expectations of transporting your MIL wherever she wants to go on her whims and schedules. Also, how would the truck gift tie into an increased expectation that she visit and stay at your house? "Oh, but look how much she does for us..."

No way would I want my name on the title of the truck.

MIL used to gift us money every year to get Christmas gifts for the kids. I was always very thankful for her generosity and made sure to express it to her. As the kids opened presents I made sure to let them know that they were from MIL.

After the conflict with her in 2019, H repeatedly told me, "You're so ungrateful. Look at all she's done for us, the Christmas money she's given us, all the help." I was supposed to feel obligated to her because she gave us a gift. I brought this up in my message to him and asked him why he thought this gift would be different.

I don't want my name on the title either. Nope, not a chance in hades. I asked him whose name would be on the title.

Him: My thoughts are hers and mine.  But I would need to discuss that.  She may just want hers on it.  It would likely need to be titled in our state, so we would need to discuss.  But my preference is hers and Mine.  

Me: If it’s a gift to you, why would her name be on the title? Does she want to use the truck someday, or is she worried I’ll take it if something happens to you? Is it just an ownership thing – she paid for it so her name gets to be on the title? If it’s a gift, and it’s free and clear as you say, why wouldn’t it be in your name alone?

Him: She is buying the truck.  

Not us.  

Gifts are not loans.  

I am just unclear why this has to be so difficult. I don’t have any issue with talking about this.  I don’t have any issue with not asking for money.  I never have.  But when it involves anything dealing with her.  It becomes so complex.  You tell me you don’t have issues with her, you like her, you just have boundaries, then what boundary is she crossing by giving us something that is not money and would be used.  Why do we still have things she has given us as gifts in the house today – the bed, furniture?  Wouldn’t all of that be the same thing.  This just doesn’t really add up to me.  

And, scene.

He is saying if he doesn't ask for it, it's just offered and accepted, it's not violating our boundary of financial independence. Strange justification.

I've never said I don't have any issues with her.

I accepted the bed as a gift. It was hers, she was getting a new one, and we needed one. It was an ugly orange so I told H I wanted to stain it. He hemmed and hawed and said I better ask her first. I asked and she was deeply hurt. She said, "You can stain it when I die."

H finally asked his mom again if I could stain it and she grudgingly agreed. I stained it the next day lol. If I could afford a new bed, I'd get one in a heartbeat.

Sorry for all this info. I'm trying to keep conversations with him short and concise, but there is so much going on here. It helps to write it out.

Your head is in the right space...Gift or not. 

If it is a gift..it's a gift.

The bed is NOT a gift, it is an item you have been kinda tricked into being a caretaker of.

I'm thinking that you go all in with supporting this..as long as it is a gift and there are no expectations..other that you guys enjoy it. 

I think you both have a conversation with her..very brief (channel Dave R here).  So generous..so thoughtful and then ask her if she has any expectations.

That will likely catch her off guard and she will likely say "no".  Accept it..thank her and move on.

Then...the MOMENT, there is a suggestion by either one of them that there are strings attached...ungrateful...you need a couple neutral ways to call them on it...in kinda a perplexed way.

I think you follow up the meeting/talk with MIL with a brief email note thanking her again for her thoughtfulness and for her clarity of no expectations.

Best,

FF

As a separate, yet related issue with your hubby...find some of the most ridiculous issues (like family bathroom) and those need to be poised to rise to the surface at a moments notice.

So...

Him..blah blah blah..why don't you like her...blah blah blah

you:  deadpan with a bit of perplexed..."oh...bad bathroom memories"

he will likely try to call you on it...

Immediately pivot to "I'm ready for your Mom to heal this rift..are you?"

Big picture..keep handing it back where it belongs.

Best,

FF

Some side thoughts...

If "the truck" happens, AND you've already chosen to protect yourself by making sure you're not on any paperwork...

After that, you could consider "declining to participate" in anything involving the truck.

"Hey babe, want to ride with me in the truck to do X?"
"Sorry, no thanks, already doing Z".

"Hey babe, can you help me wash the truck?"
"Oh no, it's not my thing, hope it goes well."

"Babe, can you just take the truck to the dealer really quick for Y?"
"Oh honey, it's not my truck, I'm just not able to help... want pasta or soup for dinner?"

You could decide if going that route meshes with your values and boundaries.

ff - thanks for the reminder. You're right I need to keep it in his court.

kells, great suggestions to keep on the back burner. Emotionally I will respond that way if he makes a decision with his mom/without me. I won't want anything to do with it.

While I really believe we need to talk through what it means to accept a gift from his mom, part of me hopes we can work something out. I'd love to see him have a truck. He would use a truck all day every day. We do a lot of home improvement projects, he hunts, he could help friends, take junk to the landfill, the list goes on. I really miss his old truck.

I've been emailing H this morning (we tend to do better via email, just because we stay calm and can plan what to say) and I'm beginning to think that the meat of this is simply wrestling with what 'gifts' mean to MIL. He asked, "How is this any different than accepting the bed as a gift." I said it wasn't any different and that was the problem.

 

I think you should ALWAYS start incorporating the phrase "gifts with strings attached"...say it explicitly.

Best,

FF

It is no different than the gift (with strings attached -- excellent call-out by FF) of the bed.

Spoken: I want to give you this bed, to move into your house and he used by your family. I don't want or need it anymore.

Unspoken: ...but I want to retain control over it until I die, and anything you do outside that parameter will insult me and result in my acting out my displeasure in various unpleasant ways.

So...

Spoken: I want to buy you a truck. It will be titled in your name and insured by you and be garaged at your house.

Unspoken: ...but... [and here's what needs to be clarified.]

So...it's probably wise of me to give the 30,000 foot view of why I'm giving the advice I am.

1.  Hubby repeatedly chooses PJ, especially when it's "obvious" that MIL is whackadoodle.  (family bathroom)

2.  Hubby gets confused when it's closer to normal.

3.  Hubby wants support of PJ and MIL, and responds well to healthy support from PJ.

4.  PJ seems to do better when doing boundaries and staying away from even the perception of persecutor role.  (and ignoring invitations to persecute)

Therefore

Give hubby full support for a "gift" (a healthy one)...clarify it is a gift and then "turn your light on".  Anytime the "non-gift" shows up..it will be seen in the light, not because you are a persecutor..but because you have a light.  It just is...like the sky is blue.

Let the bed incident inform you.

Get the truck, never ever ever EVER ask.  Naval Aviators have a saying...better to ask forgiveness..than permission.

So...truck shows up and off PJ and the ferret go.  Take pics.  Send them to MIL and everyone in the family with "glowing appreciation".

Look for ways to modify the truck...put a personal touch on it. 

When the subject of MIL "feelings" comes up...ask back in an odd...perplexed way?  "Oh my..I recall she didn't have any expectations...I'm sure she will work through this."

Get the vibe?

Best,

FF

Exactlyyyyy. The fact is, she hasn't clarified the expectation. I believe she putting money in the bank so that she can withdraw later. He will deny there is a connection.

Yesterday I challenged him about whose name should be on the title. She told him that she'd put it in her name. That, to me, is a  red-flag. Here's what I said:

I am genuinely curious about why she wouldn’t just title the vehicle over to you. Putting her name alone on the truck leaves her as the owner, you as a borrower. At that point it’s not a gift. The truck is being loaned to you to use. Putting both of your names is slightly better, in that you would actually own the vehicle, but I still find it odd that she would be listed as the owner. Gifts are given free and clear, without leftover ownership. I’m certain she intends it as a gift. She won’t want it back, right? It’s not like she wants a truck? Or the mess of dealing with it?


Solid assessment ff. This comment makes me think that we should ask MIL outright if she has any expectations. She will look shocked and hurt and say, "Oh heavens no, I'm doing this out of the kindness of my glorious perfection, an outpouring of my pure Madonna's heart and loving kindness for my husban- I mean, son." lol

This way if she tries to use it later (BECAUSE SHE WILL) we will have the actual conversation to fall back on. Right now I'm relying on H's assessment of her expectations. I'm not sure that's enough.

What I'd like to do is make his sole name on the title a condition of receipt. See, MIL cosigned on a car for her granddaughter. GD didn't make payments and they had a falling out, MIL and H confiscated the car. MIL gives $ when she's happy, then withholds it when she's not. She's asked for gifts to be returned to her when things aren't going her way.

H gets the truck and falls in love, all is well for a while. Down the road we have an issue with her. If her name is the only one on the truck, MIL will take the truck. H knows this, so he's more likely to acquiesce, even though he would never admit in a million years that she's got him in a vice grip.

She wants leverage. Her name on the title would give her that.

So she can "attempt" to withdraw later.  They will both deny it..and that's fine.  You should deny it as well and SEPARATE FUTURE ISSUES (you do this..regardless of what "they" do).

MIL "blah blah blah...witches on broomsticks and trucks..I'm generous and you should come worship me for the weekend on short notice...blah blah...I hate you for painting my bed"

PJ:  (imagine Roman gladiator days...we here at BPDfamily are the masses in the stands and the "coaches")  You and MIL are the "gladiators".  And you remember..."don't play her game"...you pause take a deep breath and ignore all the invitations for dysfunction...

PJ: "Oh that sounds lovely..I wish we had more notice.  MIL worship service this weekend doesn't work for us but we could schedule an exorcism for a 3 weekends from now"

Big picture:  The reason they do what they do is because it works...the only antidote is to do what you can so it doesn't work.  Don't enter into drama...there is a legitimate question about a visit, deal with that..yes or no...let her be happy or in a huff (that's her deal...as are her "reasons")

I think I want to add an "and also" to my prior advice.  Regardless of saying yes or no to the truck...this should be a  you and hubby together thing.

I'm very sympathetic to your hubby being on accounts and all that for an aging parent (I'm in the middle of that with Mom).  I'm also on shared title to Mom's van...but it's "Mom's van"...We bought a lifetime warranty on the van (Chrysler) and as long as the title never changes hands..warranty stays in force.  So...when Mom passes away, nothing needs to happen with the title.

Again...it's "mom's van".

In this case it is being presented as "hubby truck".  (again..I should open about my sympathies...I rarely find a truck I don't want to buy, use borrow..etc etc..recently bought a couple dump trucks..so...anyway)

Does your hubby like Dave Ramsey?  I think you should let him listen to the "strings attached" I sent you.  I also think you should find other examples where Dave really focuses on the marital unit doing things financially together...such as accepting gifts.

Drop the BPD thing (for now) and just "channel" DR.  He is very effective on sorting out "gift or not"...His part about "being scared will we disappoint you, so we'll have to decline..thanks so much for thinking of us.."  is genius.



Hmm...you guys should ask her this together, hopefully in person.  This is part of the "if it's a gift..sign it over, otherwise we are scared we will disappoint you...and thanks again for thinking of us."



DO NOT RELY ON YOUR HUSBANDS ASSESSMENT.

Clear conversation between the three of you.
 
In most states...you will "own" the vehicle even if name isn't on title.  However...I would suggest (not a hill I would die on)..that you ask for Title in both your names...quickly give that up for hubby as sole name with NO MIL on title.

Once you actually get a truck..in most states adding you to title is easy (this is now between you and hubby).  Again..not a hill I would die on...especially since most of "our" vehicles are just in my name...but the important ones my wife is on there.  Somehow it's more that I offer..than the "reality".


Anyway...hope this helps.  Glad you and hubby are able to email about this.

DR is your friend in this...don't be shy to use him.

Best,

FF

Look into your insurance requirements because that can drive what you can and can't do.

If only MIL's name is on the title, the insurance would need to be in her name for her address, at the amount charged for her age.

If the title is in both MIL's and H's name, your insurance can cover it at your address with H as the driver, amount charged for his age.

Believe me, the cost of insurance goes up and up for the elderly drivers. That's why Mom put her car in my name when she moved into our house.

Anyway, the complexity and cost of the insurance coverage can be used by you and your H to tell MIL that the title needs to be in H's name.

The other thing that strikes me is that there is close family history on taking back a car.

Maybe the least said, the better...

H and PJ:  While we appreciate the offer of the truck, having it titled in your name doesn't feel like a gift. We want to avoid any potential situation in which you would want the truck returned to you. (Unspoken...because you've done that before...)

MIL: Oh, it's a gift! I assure you it's a gift! I, the Most Generous Mother Of All Eternity, am giving this to my most Darling Son.

H and PJ:  Great! Then you won't mind the title being in H's name.

Then leave the expectations or arm-twisting that comes later to an incident by incident basis.

This had me CRYING laughing  :) :) :)


Interesting. I talked to counselor about this yesterday and he suggested the same thing. He said my name on the title should be non-negotiable. I wish. Makes sense to use it as a negotiating tool.


For sure. I wouldn't have any issue if aging was the only thing going on here. I get the practicality. Is the enmeshment and her history of no boundaries and sketchy gift-giving that makes all of this tricky.


For sure, thanks for this practical suggestion. H mentioned this already so I know it's on his radar.


Most Generous Mother of All Eternity  :) :) :) :) :) thank goodness for y'all and your sense of humor I needed to laugh.

I brought up the recent history of car-take-backsies to H, pointing out that sometimes MIL " has the best of intentions and likes to feel needed, but doesn't always think through the consequences and then regrets her decisions." He nodded and agreed with me.

So we have two agreements.

1. MIL told H the reason she wants to keep the truck in her name is so that she "doesn't upset pj." hahahahahahahaha well played, MIL. The counselor said, "She's dangling a gift in front of her darling son and singling you out as the barrier to their happiness."

I'll raise you, MIL. "Oh my goodness that's thoughtful of her to worry about me. My preference is that it's in only in H's name, so that should work out well for everyone." H said ok, he would talk to her and he was sure she wouldn't have an issue with only putting in his name.

I brought up adding my name to the truck and H got very quiet. I suspect that MIL will insist on having her name on the title because if something happened to H, she wouldn't want me getting the truck.

2. H agreed that it would be wise to slow down and give her plenty of time to process the decision. She has a history of deciding something major then changing her mind. He thinks she is going to get sticker shock when she realizes how much a truck costs, and she'll start having second thoughts about it.

Wanna hear something crazy? I brought up BPD with him again and carefully, compassionately explained why I thought his mom has it based on her behaviors. He listened and even agreed with some of what I was sharing. The counselor keeps suggesting to me that H should read, "Surviving the Borderline Mother." I don't know if he's ready for that. Some of what I've read about BPD mothers is pretty scathing.  Examples may not apply, or it will make him uncomfortable. The moment it gets negative, H will say, 'that's not my mom.'

I can't thank you enough for helping me work through this. It gives me confidence...the support goes a long way.

Is there any possibility...any at all, that the three of you have the conversation with MIL.

You should thank her for considering your feelings and state your preference that it be in either both names (don't split the couple) or hubby.

Do NOT make any agreement that it will ONLY be in hubby's name forever (then it's not a gift)...you hubby can share ownership with the ferret after it is in his name...without checking w MIL.

Remember...focus on the dysfunction.  It's not the "gift"..it's the "strings"...don't get sidelined by the gift or any of that.

Best,

FF

Possibly. He talks to her every morning on his drive in to work so he's likely already talked to her about this. If he hasn't, we'll see her this Saturday so we could have a joint conversation then.  

I'd much rather have the conversation together. I think it presents a unified front. I'd also like to be there so there's no confusion about what was said. Even if he's already talked to her, I will likely let her know (in front of him) that I appreciate her concern, and reiterate my preference...that way he can't back out.

It's weird. Sometimes I feel these tendrils of guilt, like I'm intruding on their relationship, trying to tell them what to do. Yikes.


Oh lordt. Didn't even think about this.


Got it, coach. Thanks.

Even if he already has talked to her once...or 20 times, is there a reason you should NOT talk to her in person and present a united front?

Best,

FF

Agreed PJ.  The title alone is going to be off putting for him. I wonder if he could ever get past the title?  Can I recommend a different title - same subject?  I have read "Loving the Borderline Mother".  Perhaps a better title for your H.
 Honestly, it was the most helpful of all the reading I have done, and I have done a lot.  It educates, it explains, it gives concrete examples and strategies, and I found it a positive and pragmatic read. Perhaps it also comes from a different place philosophically (loving vs surviving).   IMHO, Eggshells is a great starter book, and Loving the Borderline Mother takes it to the next level with more info and more strategies for those who want to go there. It is "headier" than Eggshells.  It came recommended, by my T, and I feel it was a helpful and positive book.  Just an idea.

No of course nothing stops us, and I think it's important. Just don't know that H really buys into any of this enough to make a difference. Whether we have a conversation with her together or not, she'll dismiss anything that's said as just me talking.

About a year ago, H and I worked on an email that he then sent to his mom. The email stated that we valued financial independence and we wouldn't be accepting gifts or taking out loans. She now says, "I don't want to upset pj by giving you a gift." THE EMAIL WAS FROM HIM TOO. She didn't accept that it was from him at all, only from me. He referred to it last week as 'your email.' I corrected him and said it was 'our email that we worked on together and you sent. If you didn't believe in what it said, you never should have sent it.'

I'm also recalling that he never even copied me when he sent it. He forwarded me his email to her, but he didn't copy me. As long as he can keep us separated he can sustain his separate stories.
 
Counselor kept reminding me to use "we" with him. I'll find a productive way to bring this up to H. This is also something we'll discuss in our next counseling session in a few weeks.



Ok thanks M. I don't think this counselor really understands how resistant he is. That's a much better title.  

I tried to find Loving the Borderline Mother and it didn't come up in my search, I only found Understanding the Borderline Mother. Do you know the author?

My bad (accuracy distorted by too many titles floating around in the grey matter).  Sorry about that.  The title is Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder by Shari Y Manning.  It comes recommended (with a forward) by Marsha Linehan.  I'm guessing most people know who Marsha Linehan is, but Shari Manning is a clinician in private practice (PhD) and former president of the organization founded by Linehan to provide training in DBT.  Manning focuses on treatment of people with BPD.  The book was both a window into the condition, and a positive focus on strategies for the loved ones.  Somewhat heavier reading than Eggshells, but immeasurably more helpful, in my opinion (also balanced and positive).

This is the "unfair meter" in you talking.  Saying and doing all these things is NOT about how she will take it, what she will believe or who she will plot against.  It is about communicating and enforcing your boundaries.

Would your actions be any different if she started saying "PJ colored her hair purple and turned the ferret into a newt."?

Best,

FF

Yes, agree. I was having an epiphany about all of this as I was writing, hence the all caps. My only focus is to communicate as clearly as is within my power, which in this case will be together. Even if we communicate with 100% clarity, she will likely dismiss it and hear whatever she wants anyway. That's not on me. I'll simply enforce what H and I have agreed.

Thanks M - found and ordered the book! That title will do so much better.

H's daughter's upcoming wedding will bring up all sorts of things with and for MIL. This is a good time to prepare.

With your MIL..it really is that simple, not much nuance there.  With hubby, more nuance..more long term view.  He has demonstrated the ability to change, especially with healthy encouragement.  Very easy to conflate those two relationships...be vigilant about keeping them separate.


 I haven't read this one yet.  Would love to hear more about it, especially from those that have read SWOE.



I would set  a finite amount of time to prepare.  Be deliberate about preparing AND ALSO be deliberate about stopping giving it any brainspace whatsoever...after the allotted time is up.

So...sit down with favorite drink, focus on if MIL does X, I will Y (and Y= ignore it is possible)
after 15 minutes put it away until your next scheduled time.


Best,

FF

Quick update. I expected to see MIL and talk to her together with H this past Saturday for a family reunion, but it was canceled after several cousins were diagnosed with Covid.

H talked to her on the phone. Supposedly before he could say anything about the title, she said, "I want your name to be on the title. I don't want my name on it." He said, "Great, because that was what we were going to ask." They agreed on a pretty reasonable dollar amount, too.

Best case scenario so far, assuming all stay in their lanes. She has a way of backing out of things like this, but H and I are so far together. He feels very supported by me and is happy I'm excited for him. If things go south it'll be because she switches the game.

They hadn't talk at all about the title, so the skeptical part of me wonders if she was hoping that insisting the truck be in his name would discourage him/split us.

What does this mean?  Is your hubby contributing a certain amount to this "gift"?

Best,

FF

It is looking likely as the amount she's offered wouldn't cover what he's looking for. He'd be paying roughly 10% of it. We've agreed on what we can afford to put towards it, especially considering he has a wedding to pay for. It puts a little bit of the power back in our court, I think.

OK..so she is not really giving your husband a truck.  She is giving him money for him to buy the truck he really wants.

Hmmm

Have to think about this for a bit.

Best,

FF

Is she agreeing to pay a monthly payment...or is this a cash vehicle purchase?

Best,

FF

She's giving a lump sum - another positive. H and I plan to cover the remaining small monthly payment.

He found a truck he wanted yesterday and sent it to me. I've worked hard to show interest and ask questions, and I really feel that we made this choice together.

So he called MIL yesterday to let her know. She said she didn't want to drive to the bank alone to get the check (sigh) so he drove up today to go with her.

We had a really interesting conversation about gifts last night that I'll create another post about on PSI - he said alternatively that he doesn't feel worthy of gifts, and that he feels the need to be worthy of gifts.