BPDFamily.com

Facts:

- Been 20+ years together, have one child.
- My spouse is NOT diagnosed with bpd. Been to several therapists for anxiety and depression. None confirmed it when I asked.
- My gut feeling tells me otherwise. I'm not qualified to give any diagnoses, but something I feel is not right. IMO, she has several bpd traits.

- For years she thought my love was not adequate or enough. I lack empathy, care or I even hate her.
- Has anger issues, sometimes with rage and aggression. But most of time she seems desperate before rage/aggression kicks in.
- Cries a lot, worried about our relationship and genuinely seems hurt, even though the reality seems much more calm or less severe than her thinking of it.
- Cannot be reasoned with logic in those times - *I* am responsible for everything, overreacted, have issues etc. If I react/defend/try to explain, it's like adding fuel to the fire.
- Can be rude, sarcastic, jealous and without any empathy when she feels hurt. The problem is, even after 20+ years of being together I STILL cannot sense or predict what kind of hurt are we talking about when it comes. Thus, getting hurt myself as I expected different outcome/treatment than I got.
- People see her as cheerful, joyful, good looking, nice, sweet, innocent (which she is, but just one part of the coin).
- She's a hardworking, highly educated and creative person and a great mother - no doubt about that.

Problems:
- I'm losing it, even though I try hard to get past everything. I'm extremely logical person and I'm losing it when someone accuses me of something that I didn't do or was other way around. When I try to be nice, have a good and working relationship, and then someone throws garbage on me.

For example, she can treat my free time and my trying to help for granted. If I show that I'm hurt, displeased, she will be mean and try to be rude, how she didn't need me in the first place etc. If I react, she will burst crying, saying how she cannot take it anymore, she will leave with our daughter etc.
 
- Every time when pressed against a wall and faced with responsibility for her behavior she uses excuses. Of all kinds - from blatant denying, crying, reflection to spinning the story, telling me how she did the house today, bought X and Y and how I'm being mean considering how much she does, cares, etc. How can I be so cruel to such a lovely wife? It's me. I have the problem.

Please try to assist me, what should I do now? Should I just let her to leave, as she threatens? Should I abandon this all, is there a point? I can't see her going to therapy about this - it's about me needing therapy after all. And I'm sick and tired being accused as a villain. Seeing that my hurting, my emotions don't matter when she feels "threatened". So frustrated and tired.

Hi Manic Miner,

Welcome! 20 years is a very long time. Everything you described definitely sounds like BPD.

Don't worry, you're not the one with the issue. We all experience the blame shifting and projection. It can be a lot to wrap your head around.

However, the one thing she's right about is, you are the one with the problem.  I don't mean this in a way that you have a mental health problem. I mean it that you have a problem in that you need to learn how to manager her behavior, through your reactions.

In my final couple's therapy session, I made the mistake of saying, "You're behavior is the root cause of the problem." The therapist said, "No, you're wrong. You're reactions to her are the cause of the problem." It really pissed me off at the time, because I am fairly logical also. It's a simple if then statement in my opinion. If X occurs, then Y occurs. Y occurring did not cause X to happen. Basic logic, right? However, in our situation X occurring will only initiate an "if else" of YY to engage.

What we need to learn to do is better validation. It's really difficult to do if you are used to using reason in your everyday communication. However, this is what needs to happen. For example, in response to I had a terrible day because of what you said earlier, you should respond with something along the lines of, "Wow, I didn't realize that my statement would be so painful that it ruined your whole day. Thank you for letting me know. I'm glad you allowed me to enjoy the day, anyway. That was very nice of you. I'm really lucky to have you in my life." Say it in as neutral a tone as possible. If it comes off sounding trite, or sarcastic, you'll just make things worse. 

It's definitely the opposite of what you want to do, when they are being disproportionately irrational over the perceived slight. So you see, you do need to address your own behavior, to a certain extent, if you want to try and make this relationship work. After all you actually live in backwards world.

Have you considered seeing a therapist to help you through this difficult relationship?  If not, they can be very beneficial. I suggest you look for one with a lot of experience with dialectical behavioral therapy to help you navigate the treacherous waters you are finding yourself in.

Hi EZEarache, thank you! And thanks for your prompt and thorough answer. I really appreciate it.

You are totally right that I have problems with communicating with her at this state. Actually - I fail to communicate when she's into the 'episode' at all.

Here's why I think I fail to do it:

- Nobody confirmed bpd. Every therapist so far acknowledged this as "life problems", "difficult times", "disagreements on both sides", "anger on both sides" etc. This reached the point when I said to our marriage counselor when my spouse denied most of the things I said that really hurt me - you've got to believe me, as I don't have any recorded proof. It evened out as - we both need to work on empathy.
Fair enough. But will it cure anything long-term, if her empathy magically shuts down every time she is threatened and I cannot point back and say "hey, have some empathy for me please?" I cannot even predict what will shut down her rational thinking anymore. It can be a simple word in a sentence that I said, out of nowhere.

- If I knew she had a BPD, I'd be at peace, or so I think. At least to know what I'm fighting for. I still don't know whether this is an uncontrolled mental state or this person is just the way she is.

- I feel losing my sanity and dignity when someone is reflecting things at me I didn't do or felt the opposite. Or by being rude to me just because of some imagined threat. I wonder if I allow this to happen today and apologize for things I didn't do and was actually hurt myself, how can I see this improving tomorrow?

- Endless accusations, even when we eventually reach agreement. I always need to swim the rough sea and face all kinds of winds just to prove or ask something so simple - if that "simple" annoyed her in any way. Something that normal people would finish in 5-10mins, ours take the whole day, as a fight.

- We are in romantic long-term relationship. I'm in my early 40s. I need to feel intimacy and be honest with my soulmate. Want to give and feel love. Want to feel peace and trust in our house. If I'm constantly walking on eggshells, hiding my true thinking about certain issues, being hurt and hiding it... what's the deal to stay in this relationship anyway? The major thing that is grounding me currently is our daughter, which we both love very much.
Make no mistake, I love my spouse too. I just fail to see the long-term, satisfactory resolution of this, for both sides.

To answer your last question, yes, we've been to several therapists. At least 4. None were DBT though. Last one was a psychiatrist and I'll soon go again. She helped me overcome my own temper, to refuse to bite the bait in those times and I can already see the result.

However, I still fail to utter the "right words" and disengage as should. My spouse is extremely smart and can sense my feelings, when I try to escape and just be done with certain benign situations peacefully. She will ask the same question again and demand those answers, until I'm exhausted and some arguing emerges.


Totally true, thank you.

All you can do in your situation is validate and not JADE. I remember feeling the same way about a diagnosis. I have a diagnosis for my exwBPD, now. Honestly, It really didn't make that much of a difference. After our couple's therapist confirmed my suspicions, it just made things more difficult for me to work with her, because there really isn't anything you can do besides validate and not JADE. Chances are she wouldn't even believe the diagnosis anyway. When I tried to nicely broach the subject, all I got back was, "I don't care what you think." She'll probably blame shift it around and say the therapist is a quack. In my case she's written bad reviews online about the therapist. Sucks for the therapist... but it only further validated the diagnosis, LOL.






Validation does not require full hearted apologies. You just have to acknowledge that the feelings she is experiencing is painful for her. In the BIFF series they advocate that you actively avoid apologies with high conflict personality types. I've found that if I apologize in the long run it just leads to more apologies. For example I made the self discovery about a year and a half ago, that I was actively giving the silent treatment after one of our fights, and this was in fact a form of emotional abuse. I apologized for it and became mindful not to engage in this sort of behavior again. My apology, put it in her head that I was emotionally abusive all the time. She started accusing me of emotional abuse all the time. Even when there was no malintent on my part. When you validate, try to avoid an active apology, especially if an apology is not in order because you didn't really do anything.

In my case I am still struggling with this. I moved out six months ago. Things have really only digressed from there.  Lately, she has taken to challenging my memory on every major co-parenting issue we have come across. Last week, she started calling me psychotic. I have my own mental health challenges, so when someone makes accusations like that I take them seriously.


Only the whole day? You mean it doesn't go on for a week? You must be doing something right!


Oh, I can totally relate to this statement. We have a 15 month old son. As hard as it is to be a single Dad, I'm making the realization from people I've spoken, with both as parents and children of high conflict households, that getting out at such an early age is actually a blessing in disguise. Our baby will only really ever remember mommy and daddy living apart. The trauma will be much reduced. It still sucks, though. I would like nothing more than to be a happy nuclear family. Her words and behavior have made that impossible.


Great, you absolutely should. It will help you in managing the dysregulated behavior and keep you grounded.


I think if we got your wife and my exGFwBPD into the same location we would all be doomed. Your experiences are very similar to mine. Incredibly intelligent and insightful, and unable to pull herself back once she is determined to get an answer to something. It is next to impossible to back her off once she starts. Once she gets the honest answer, she's even more pissed. Which, of course, is why you didn't want to say anything in the first place. My only recourse was to actively leave the house for a while. Usually she'd still be pissed when I got back, as was I, but then if I was lucky, she would just go to another room and leave me alone.

How old is your child?  The biggest hang-up for me is my two children are still not even teenagers and I feel a need to weather things out for a bit longer yet. 

As is often related here, it seems like 95% of what you wrote is identical to my own experience, including the frame of mind in which you now find yourself.  You have my sympathy.

Even though I figured out how to calm down the cycle of chaos prior to finding this forum, I'm probably not the best person from which to take advice.  Despite the fact that so many individual things are good in my life, my home life is not.  However, there are plenty of more experienced people here that can help point you in the right direction and lots of good tools to study in the archive of this site.  Just having this place to compare notes helps immensely. 

Thanks guys! I wanted to reply to EZEarache and wrote a wall of text, but then deleted it as I need to take a break and step back a bit.

The good thing is, I sorted this out with my spouse - for now. I know it's only temporary, but I read so much on this forum about changing your own behaviour, temper, views, maintaining your position, etc. Also talking directly with you here and working with my therapist, I think I'm on the right track.

I will treat her behaviour as a bpd, even if it's not. Even if it's only some traits of this and that and inherited values of her (troubled) parents. It could be. When I see many of her wrongdoings, I see her mother and father, sometimes a direct copy of their temper and views. The issues she has with them and unrequited love she never quite got from them when she needed it.
I try to understand it, be more compassionate, caring and to listen better, as she seems to suffer a lot in those times (as she does), but also to know to distance myself from it, not take it personally and don't add fire or ignite pointless fights.

I also think we all can learn so much about human relationships with this toolkit. Even without any personality disorder, humans do tend to think in patterns and hold stigmatized views and routines. Understanding the core, being more calm and less reactive can help us all. Or so I think.

After the latest issues she said she learned a lot too. She does care what therapists think, as she listened to many things I explained of what psychiatrist said. So that's a good start. I won't certainly stop here, but at least know my take in this.

Couper, to answer your question, my daughter is 11y old. So pre-teen. Not quite the best time to separate and finally she realized this as well, after long but fruitful talk.

Hello and welcome.  A good community here.  Have you read Walking on Eggshells?  CoMo

Likely no counselor or other professional will diagnose her without assessing her first.  Maybe you'd get one to agree she shares many of the traits of BPD or another acting-out Personality Disorder, but that wouldn't be a diagnosis either.  Some of us here did get a diagnosis, but that's the small minority.  I was in and out of court for about 8 years — separation, divorce process and post-divorce.  Not once did any professional name a diagnosis.  They danced around all the behaviors but they declined to diagnose.  That's the reality.

So what do the professionals choose to do?  Court does not try to fix anyone, they more or less deal with them as they are.  Court will make decisions based on the documented poor behaviors, thereby setting basic limits.  So, realistically, we have to follow their approach when we seek resolution to our various situations legally, physically and emotionally.  (It is up to you, with your local legal lawyer and collective peer support, to make whatever court orders you get to be as bulletproof as possible.)  At the end of my 8 years dealing with her in court, the court finally wrote in that last decision that she needed counseling, yet stopped there and didn't order it.

A good start is to educate yourself.  On our Tools and Skills Workshops (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0) board you can browse a large assortment of educational tools and skills.  I encourage you to read about Boundaries.  Yes, I know, your spouse fights against boundaries.  That's what we all have faced.  So the advice is to turn it around... you set boundaries for yourself, for how YOU respond.  An extremely simplistic outline cut to the bare bones may be, "If you do or don't do ___ then I will do or not do ___."  There are several examples there to describe various scenarios.

Of course, setting realistic boundaries are likely to trigger overreactions, what we call Extinction Bursts, trying to intimidate you to shrink back into prior appeasing behaviors, back into the other's comfort zone.

I started displaying more issues than her. She's keeping her temper quite good, aggression/anger wise. Although passive-aggressive behaviour is there from time to time and her "sad" phase kicked in, in the middle of nowhere. Actually, it was when I thought we were doing better and progressive, parenting, working and all of that.

However, I am struggling with my own temper. I just tend to go bonkers when I hear one more of her excuses, explanations, shouldas and couldas.

Today I was cleaning a custom bike that she borrowed from my friend to try. I asked, told, begged her to clean it and return it to my friend for one full year.

She saw me cleaning it today:

Her: "Oh, thank you for cleaning it for me, but you didn't have to."
Me: "I had. I asked you numerous times to clean and remove it from our terrace for one year. One year!"
Her: "But... I didn't have time. You know I was busy for so many things. I was..."
Me: "You were busy for ONE YEAR to invest half an hour! You think I am not busy and don't have better things to do than to clean a bike you borrowed last year?"
Her: "Stop it, you are not controlling yourself anymore! I will not talk to you now when you say such things to me, please keep quiet!"
Me: Steaming, going bonkers inside.

She probably felt ashamed or what and called my friend to return it herself, while silencing me wherever I tried to say something about this. I'm the one that was wrong, right?

Every effing time she's pressed against the wall same happens. Every time she faces responsibility, it's the bloody traffic, this guy was mean, there was a congestion, I didn't do something, oh those chores, oh the job, oh the Moon wasn't aligned well.

At the same time, I'm the one keeping her back, doing backstage support, patching the holes... while receiving what? Mostly hearing how I don't love or respect her, freshly with new demands or what should be better and improved.

It's like living with a teenager. That's what this is. I'm watching and trying DBT techniques I found on YT myself, from Marsha and Self-Help Toons. It helps a lot, makes so much sense for many issues in life, not just bpd. In fact I think this should be learned in school. But as you can see, I struggle to apply it when the time comes, she still puts me off the rails in a second.

@forever dad, thanks on those tips for boundaries. That will certainly help here.

I can see you have a tremendous amount of frustration that easily bubbles to the surface when she comes at you with some nonsense. I get it. I, too, was really angry and disappointed when it became obvious that I was dealing with a very difficult spouse, who managed to keep that part under wraps for a long time. I felt duped, deceived, shortchanged…

Your feelings are valid. However, not only is your wife causing difficulty in your life, you are shooting yourself in the foot by your reactions to her.

I say that as someone who did the exact same thing.

How to get past that? Like you, I’m a very logical person. I’m strategic and once it became apparent that my anger was f*ing me up, I realized it was an impediment. Have you read The Art of War?

Though living with a pwBPD can seem like combat, it needn’t be the case. Best to avoid war if possible. Lessons from the 5th century BC are still relevant.

“The art of war teaches us to rely not on the likelihood of the enemy not coming, but on our readiness to receive him.”

The economy of energy is best utilized by avoiding conflict. You sound depleted. Best to spend time in self care and fill up your tank.

Yeah, you see it clear then. Sorry to hear that, but glad you managed to overcome this, as it seems.


I know. Actually it's something I work on and try to overcome. But it seems I'm not quite there yet. I invested so much energy to talk to my spouse, to get the right words and just when I felt we reached something, hit some milestone, she showed me that pretty much 70% of that fell short, day after or so, returning to a start. With me being depleted.

At the same time I'm aware that her accusations of me losing my temper are, sadly, valid. And that's a vicious circle. It's like I know the right answer, I know that my thoughts and actions are honest. But I cannot express them easily or at all, because of walking on eggshells and never touching the real issue. Then I try to wing it, trying my best, I think I was heard, I think she was (finally) heard, but it just vanishes, as I said in my previous line.


I didn't read that, I did read The War of Art lol. xD

Anyway, again, it's true. My armoury or radars seem to fall short now, I am depleted.
Yes I do love her. Yes I'd miss her if/when we separated. After all, we have been 20+ years together, in much happier times. We've seen both the good and bad and always managed to stay close and connected, somehow. Not anymore.

I'm sad she can't see 5% of her behaviour and turmoil she creates, even in good times. And I'd be tremendously sad when/if my daughter starts living with her. But I'm so fed up of this crap. I know who I am, I know how empathetic being I am, how caring I can be. How I never was jealous, always supportive and proud of her achievements. Even though I've been told zillion times how evil and cruel man I am.

I also know that I'm a caring father that tries his best to cheer and spend quality and fun time with his little girl that has impaired vision. But for my wife it's never enough. And it won't ever be. When I told her how much time I invested with our daughter while she was on her job, doing all stuff myself, her response was "That's what fathers do. You didn't do any favour to me." My response to that was "You shouldn't take anyone's good deeds for granted, as nothing ever is."
In the past she at least acknowledged some of her behaviour, took some responsibility, knew when she went over the top, apologized. Not anymore. It's always other factors + me.

It seems as if both of you are in a stalemate. As we often say here, it’s up to the *non* to be the emotional leader.

How to do that when you are so out of juice?

Rather than continuing to walk on eggshells, try one tool— Don’t be invalidating
 (https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating)

Often you never know what will set off a pwBPD (person with BPD). It could be a word, a glance, looking away for a moment, a sigh, whatever…. They are going to get upset at something an emotionally healthy person would never notice.

So trying to avoid upsetting them is destined to fail.

They have a high need for validation. But how to do that once the relationship has deteriorated and they look at kind words with suspicion? Validation can be tricky even in the best of circumstances. It’s hard to guess what their prevailing emotion is and to support them in feeling the way they do. Much can go wrong and it can backfire. Validation works best when the relationship is on a more even keel.

Best to learn how not to invalidate. It takes much less energy to do that and used consistently over time, it can mend fraying threads in the relationship.

Thanks a lot on that. Another lesson/tool to examine and digest. Those are life skills, as is DBT.

I have three questions though:

1. If we are prepared for war (our readiness to receive the enemy, so to say), with answers based on every repeating behavioral bpd patterns, their perceived threats, how can we ever be natural and spontaneous with these people? Is that possible?

2. Should I remain with compassion and understanding even when it's so evident that she's passive-aggressive, sarcastic or is making fun of me on some personal level, like jokes where you just sense something is behind it?

3. I've seen a lot of tips on this forum from people that say it's their "ex bpd", either divorced or separated. Some even called their spontaneous ex-bpd leaving "a blessing". Now don't get me wrong, they have probably been to hell and back. But I do wonder are those tips really useful? I'm not trying to judge, I just struggle with the same thought myself. Can we live a normal life with bpd partner, ever again?

In my case it's so evident the "idealization" phase ended for me. My psychiatrist even said (though dismissed bpd diagnosis I asked long ago) I was annoying my wife so much with my way of doing things. She said my wife probably went on a fast lane with her job, with her new thought of living after being in a mother role so long and I was left grounded. To that I responded with - yeah, but while she's high, someone is keeping her back down there - me. Taking care of our daughter while she's on a job, doing part-time job myself, maintaining our flat, gardening and paying the bills.

It takes practice, just like learning a new skill. When you first learned to drive a stick shift, you had to be mindful of a lot of factors you needn’t have attended to when driving an automatic. After a while, you didn’t have to think about it at all.


Think about it this way—she’s just as burned out as you are. You, however, have more capacity to make things better, as you’re not dealing with mental illness. Therefore it’s your job to lead things out of the ugliness. Sorry.

Did you watch the video? He explains that lots of time invalidation happens exactly when we are trying to be kind to our partners. For some reason, they misperceive our intentions.

I’ll tell you from personal experience, I’ve invalidated the hell out of my husband and some friends because I’m very logical and unemotional. I understand it now, but at the time I couldn’t figure out why people were getting pissed off at me, when I was only trying to *help*.

What I was doing was helping them the way I would have wanted to be helped if I were in their shoes—through a rational, logical explanation.

How they experienced that was: 1. That I thought I was *better* than them.  2. That I didn’t care about their feelings  3. That I had it *all figured out* so I must be some narcissist or something. 4. That I was telling them they should just get over it  and undoubtedly countless other interpretations of my responses.


Yes, things can be made so much better by utilizing the tools available here. That said, the more affected a partner is with BPD, the more difficult it is.

I’ve been married to two husbands with BPD. The first’s behavior was quite out of control: multiple infidelities, substance abuse, illegal activities, financial irresponsibility, violence, emotional and verbal abuse.

The second is a well-respected professional whose vice is drinking a bit much. He has some traits of BPD, but not the full gamut, and was diagnosed by the psychologist with whom we did couples counseling as having a personality disorder. She told me that when I saw her for individual counseling some years later. She wouldn’t specify, though I knew she saw narcissistic traits but most of the BPD traits were only evident in the way he behaved with me, out of public view.

I had no knowledge of BPD in my first marriage, and even if I did, I don’t know that I could have saved myself from the train wreck. I have been out of contact with him for years, but every once in a while, I get a call from a creditor trying to track him down for a bill he’s skipped out on. So obviously he’s not gotten his life together.

With my current husband, I initially was furious when the cloak dropped and he revealed himself to be so brittle and dysfunctional. He managed to keep the illusion going for a few years after we got married, and then he revealed his true self.

I’d had enough of mentally ill people in my life, as my mother was seriously impaired and the thought I’d once again married someone so difficult was hard to deal with. So I had very little patience at that point, and a heck of a lot of resistance when I landed here and was told I had to change.

I was really angry. Why me? I’m not the one with the problem!

Well, yes, I was the one with the problem in that I either had to work through things, end the relationship, or continue to complain.

So I chose to work on things. It didn’t turn around overnight, but now things are great! We seldom have conflicts, even after sheltering together a year and a half during the pandemic. I’m genuinely happy and he seems happy too, at least much of the time. Still there are hints of BPD, but I don’t give it any energy and it goes away soon.

Yes, things can get remarkably better. It takes work, willingness, and letting go of preconceived  concepts of what you think a marriage partner or relationship should be.

I cannot talk as openly about some things with my husband as I can with my friends. But any relationship has its limits. Just like being in a relationship with someone who is physically disabled, there are things that are off the table.

And the same with me. I don’t like being a passenger in his sports car. I’m very content with staying at home on the ranch and taking care of my animals. He’d prefer to travel (in non-Covid times). We accept each other’s differences. It is disappointing for both of us, but the good outweighs that.

I'm so glad it worked out for you! Your story is probably the happiest on this forum I read so far, encouraging others to not give up easily and try fix things.

Alas, I don't think my marriage is salvageable on a more permanent basis at this point. It could be, with me changing perspective so much. Trust on both sides has deteriorated. She has her reasons, I have mine.

Like you, I'm beyond tired of metal illnesses - my father is a narcissist, my sister histrionic. My mother, her parents and her family were the best and caring people I've ever known. They are responsible for making me sane, teaching me good values and providing me a happy, loving childhood (as happy as possibly could be with a narc dad). Sadly, all have died.

And now my wife with her bpd-like traits... I started seeing her behaviour long ago, but it kind of worked before. However, it was at the moment I got a diagnosis for my father, when I was learning to cope and heal myself from manipulations and roller-coasters he did for years. I couldn't take that BS anymore and went no-contact with him. I guess when you start acknowledging and seeing things, you cannot hide similar stuff. It's like having an infra-vision and seeing things much deeper now, being oversensitive too. Sadly, I cannot explain this to my wife, she cannot be reasoned with this at all.

Then what gotten me seriously sad in our relationship was the acknowledgement that there was not much room for my own suffering. It's the feeling that she has "exclusivity" in that area. For years I have been trying to meet her needs and to keep nuclear family going strong and be happy. However, when I myself needed space, to process the separation from my father, as I felt then he physically died for me, I was sad and angry because of everything he's done, I had to argue with her, fighting for place to understand my mood and leave me alone.

Further, she added fuel to the fire, constantly reminding me how bad my father was (like she was the greatest victim there again and like that wasn't my only parent). She tried to soothe me sometimes, I'll give her that, but always measuring, struggling with her own demons - the bpd-like traits. How can I possibly be the one that needs understanding and space so much (speaking of weeks, not months, not years!)? If I am, better keep myself well soon and keep going. That place is reserved for her, at least from time to time. I'm actually glad I didn't get depression and fairly quickly recovered, considering all.

So, staying in this relationship would mean acknowledgement that I'm here alone in times like those. Self-helping, self-understanding, self-healing. I can't help but fantasize sometimes how another woman could be more honest and supportive, without adding fuel to the fire, without the need to explain the obvious.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your story, it's really helpful. I'm also glad you get along even when you are different. I myself have a lot to learn here, though will do step by step.

I’m sorry you’ve lost your family members who were so kind and supportive of you.  :hug:  You we’re blessed to have people who loved you and helped you through the difficulties of having a narcissistic father. So many of us here on this forum who had a relative with a personality disorder have married people with BPD.

It makes sense, we grew up in a circumstance where it was an ambient feature of our childhood. So when we found a partner who displayed some of those same characteristics, they felt like family, for better or worse.

I know I was so grateful to find someone who seemed to really like me, approve of me, compliment me, etc. It was balm to my soul after growing up with a hypercritical mother, who at times could also be very loving. Of course, I didn’t realize that this wonderful appreciation was just the idealization phase, with the devaluing phase yet to come.

It could be that your wife, even under the best of circumstances is not capable of providing the emotional support you want and need. Perhaps she is someone who will always take up all the oxygen in the room and not ever consider your needs. You can understand this is a possibility from witnessing your father’s behavior.

Or it could be that the relationship has gotten to a point where she, like you, is treading water, exhausted, hoping for a lifeline.

It is true that we are alone and that we need to understand ourselves, help ourselves, heal ourselves. We cannot expect another to do that for us, though it’s nice when we can share our journey with someone who listens and understands.

Perhaps it is possible that your wife could develop her emotional intelligence capacity enough to be a supportive partner. As it stands now, it doesn’t sound as if she has the motivation to do so; she is too focused upon her own neediness.

But what do you suppose could happen should you begin to make changes in how you relate to her?

Change begets change. One thing I can guarantee is that if you begin to implement the Tools at the top of this page, you can lessen the conflict.

Maybe it won’t be enough for you to want to remain in this marriage. Or maybe it will begin to open the door for her to become more compassionate and considerate of you. Unless you try, you’ll never know.

One thing I do know is that you love your daughter. And for her sake, it would be beneficial to reduce the conflict between yourself and your wife. You fully understand what it’s like growing up in a home with a parent with a personality disorder, and you’re motivated to lessen the damage on her, otherwise you wouldn’t be participating here. You didn’t mention her age, but she sounds young, and whether you stay or leave, there will be many years of coparenting in the future.

And here’s the most compelling reason to begin to make some changes with your wife: if you don’t change some of your patterns, it’s easy to fall into another dysfunctional relationship with a personality-disordered partner.

Don’t just take my word on this. There are countless other stories where people have gotten involved with more than one romantic partner with BPD.

So maybe look upon your relationship with your wife as an opportunity to repair patterns that may have stemmed from childhood with a narcissistic parent, patterns you no longer want to continue in the future. Whether she joins you in personal growth is anyone’s guess, but ultimately you will be learning things that make you a better father, a better husband or maybe a better romantic partner for a more emotionally healthy woman.

Thank you for your time and compassion to talk to me on a personal level here. Means a lot. You said more useful things and strategies than several therapists I've been to and I'm not exaggerating.

Speaking of my father, yes. However, since some time passed without seeing him, I can think more clearly now. Sister and I mostly suffered by his ways of treating his wife, our mother, by having affairs and separate lives while maintaining family-man attitude. It felt fake and insincere to say the least. Since my mother was a true empath, he exploited her good behaviour and her endless love and understandings. And for that I could never forgive him.
But, since he was working a lot and away in his 2nd life, the three of us and my grandparents living nearby were mostly alone and our little community was healthy. That was a blessing in disguise. I do know my mother suffered a lot because of her broken marriage and it was not healthy for her at all. I felt that deeply. However, she refused to divorce from him, despite being from a wealthy family and a doctor. It is what it is. He never neglected his kids (us) in terms of financial support. We always had good education and everything we needed for a good life, financially, good house, to start a job, etc. After our mother died, he did try to compensate her a lot. I felt that.

Even when I got married, wife and I were at our beginnings then and after couple of years he bought us a flat, a car and helped us equip our flat. My wife however was dismayed as he bought us a flat on his name first, in case of divorce. I too was sick of his suspicions and felt controlled then, but... I hate to say it, but maybe he saved my butt here. There was a time during her 'episodes' when she suggested me to start living somewhere else. Now imagine if she, in her state of mind persuaded the law to kick me out somehow? She talks BS in that state, but however slim were the chances, as a mother she could do it or even use it as a threat. But she cannot now and knows it.

Taking all into account, it would be totally unfair to dismiss him entirely and say that he never did anything right or good for us. However, both wife and I got tired of his own manipulations, affairs, gossiping and fake great-grandpa role he tried to establish. It was mainly about his life, but I couldn't manage him in a healthier way. The only way was NC then. I will talk to my therapist about this further, whether or not is possible to have some contact with him or not, without falling into the trap again. He's my only living parent, reaching old age, but I'm aware of certain boundaries now that cannot be crossed under any circumstances.

However, my wife hates him and mocks him sarcastically like he's the worst man in existence, even though he was never bad to her in person! That also hurt like hell for me. I won't start a story of my in-laws here, but let's just say that I had much happier and healthier childhood and that my family (incl. my narc father) treated my wife-to-be like daughter when we were young and when she had troubles in her own family. So that all felt like a slap in the face.


You nailed it, both are true. She is exhausted and hurt, no doubt about that. She's hoping for a lifeline, searching. But she does take most of the oxygen in the room, though differently. My father was loud, cracking jokes or gossiping even in inappropriate times, trying to steal the spotlight. Tiring, annoying but superficial. She is super needy, not evident at first, but you just start to feel it after a while. She is jealous when I feel better than her, if she feels bad or invested some energy to be ok. She almost wants me to taste her suffering a bit or to be around, always taking her back, while she does what she does. She's hardworking, but hardly someone that is taking my needs into account now. Whether that could change, we'll see. We did use to see much better and happier days, so there's a hope.


Perhaps. You described her perfectly. The problem I see here is that I feel her needs are never truly satisfied. Like there's not a certain milestone we have to reach. Wherever we do reach something, next thing pops up. It's like a living a life where nothing is enough to feel truly happy, satisfied and grounded, even though we live relatively simple lives, considering the time we live in.

There were many times when I reached a therapist without knowing to pinpoint the exact problem, except to explain the situation. Most of the core values, core needs as a family we do have. We have no mortgage, no debt, we have our own flat, a car, no affairs, no substance abuse, no reckless spending, have enough money to live modestly but nicely and on our own. And then you see her, like the world is falling apart. Hello?


Absolutely. I too did a lot of invalidation. I still do, with my own temper, when I hear some unjustified demands and accusations. I tend to shutoff. My therapist asked me to count to 10 before saying anything in that moment. I watched the video you sent above and it was eye opening and good. The presenter was as funny as was thoughtful. I found myself there a lot.
I'm trying to implement those changes as much as I can and to heal myself too. The problem I currently face are the constant mood changes. She can be all nice to me, talk to me about something, I try to be as validating as possible, then go into silent treatment or passive aggressive mode. Within hours. Literally nothing bad happened between. Or wake up being nice and vice versa. It's exhausting for sure.


Now this quote is one of the wisest stuff I've read in a while. Should be noted and useful for others as well! Thank you. :)
My daughter is 11, she has impaired vision and mild case of cerebral palsy (she can walk by herself), so we as parents are here to stay, together or not. She loves us both and is incredibly witty and smiling child that likes to make jokes and have fun wherever she can. She's my main grounding stone here now.

Now my wife threatens divorce and is actively searching a house with real-estate agent.

The spark that started this again was asking some banal question that didn't end up well.

W: Do you want to go with us (her and daughter) on a birthday of xyz?
Me: I'm not sure, at what time is it today?
W: Why? Do YOU have something else to do (asking with sarcastic voice)?
Daughter: Yeah, at what time is it?
Me: Both daughter and I would like to know the time now - me saying jokingly.
W: At 5 or 6 or 7pm. I told you after she finishes school, later this day or evening! Not sure why does it matter and why are you being such a pest!
Me (saying with slightly raised voice): It's totally normal to know the time when you are asking someone!
W: Uttering some nonsense.
Me: Repeating the above.
W: I DON'T WANT YOU ANYWHERE NEAR ME ON THAT BIRTHDAY! WE ARE GOING ALONE! That's it, You are mean and rude AGAIN! We are moving out as soon as possible.

So what do you suggest? Any point investing a millimeter of my strength? Is this salvageable at all at this point? And is there a point? You see, if I somehow manage this, next day will come and there will be a simple question like the above, that I honestly don't know how to answer and NOT break the eggshell.

Yeah, if I would be totally emotionless or didn't raise my voice at all, that would have helped, maybe. But should I be on medications 24/7 just so I cannot ever raise my voice in any way? I literally didn't raise my voice to argue, I was just stating and emphasizing my question.

Anything can be a trigger for someone with BPD. It’s impossible to avoid, though we can minimize it over time by utilizing the Tools.

What do you suppose her emotion was during that verbal exchange?

These sorts of interactions typically don’t trigger someone who is emotionally healthy. Let’s delve into how things devolved in your interaction:

“It’s totally normal to know the time when you are asking someone!”

Up to this point, you might have been able to turn things around, as your previous comment was said playfully.

It didn’t help that you raised your voice, but also can you see how this comment was defensive and justified asking your question about the time?

Have you seen this article about JADE?  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

JADEing (Justifying, Arguing, Defending, Explaining) is like throwing gas on the fire when used with someone with BPD. With anyone else, it might be OK, maybe not optimal, but it won’t get the same volcanic reaction that a person with BPD will give.

Why is that? To understand this, you have to recognize how shaky the emotional foundation is for a pwBPD (person with BPD). In addition to feeling unworthy and self loathing, they often feel so ungrounded and insecure that they don’t feel *real*.

Of course it’s *normal* to know the time of an event, but that sentence could have led her to think that you were telling her that she wasn’t *normal*, that there was something wrong with her—likely a message she has not only heard all her life, but has replayed countless times in her internal dialog.

Meanwhile, you just wanted to know the damn time.

And she thought you were telling her that she was awful.


Is this salvageable? Yes, but it will take a lot of work on your part.

Is it worth it? Only you know the answer to that question.

The most difficult part for me was to get over my own anger and resistance to what I supposed was a lot of heavy lifting. Yes, it takes quite a bit of energy at first to learn some of the tools. I suggest trying the “Don’t be invalidating” one first.

But then, once you start to get comfortable using this tool, the surprising thing is realizing that it takes much less energy than you might previously have thought.

I learned that by not saying certain things, I could manage to avoid a lot of conflict. For example: Our kitchen is fairly small and it’s easy to get in each other’s way. I’ve worked in restaurants and when I cook with friends, I never have this problem, only with my husband.

What happens when he gets in my way or I get in his, instead of an easy comment, “Just behind you” or a friendly tap on the arm, he will back off and stand six feet away.

He does it with such a dramatic flair, and I find it really annoying. It’s easy to interpret it as this narcissistic display that *you're in my way* but I don’t think this is really what’s behind it. Probably more like “I don’t want to get in your way.”

So this morning, I caught myself before I said anything about it. I almost said “It’s hard to believe you ever worked in a restaurant before.” Apparently he was a short order cook for a brief period when he was in college.

Instead, I looked at my own emotion, annoyance, and feeling distanced, rejected, and asked myself, “How important is this really?”

When I realized that nothing good would come of my comment and imagined how he would feel attacked and shamed, I knew it was best not to say anything. If I had, I could have predicted he would be upset for hours, and for what? He’d probably do the same thing even more.

Looking further into the dynamic, this behavior of his which felt offensive to me, probably stemmed from him feeling unworthy.

Argument averted, I became more aware of one of my own triggers, and mindful that my interpretation of his behavior may not be accurate at times.

And I SAVED A LOT OF ENERGY.

Hi manic miner,

I just wanted to say that I read up on this conversation and I'm rooting for you. I feel you've got a wonderful advisor in Cat Familiar and I really hope that with time your situation will improve.

Also, the repetition of family dynamics / narc parents in BPD partner choice * face palm*. I'm so glad I found this forum and can totally affirm what CF says in terms of really learning about us and what we can control in terms of these dynamics. There's hope in that.

@Cat
Again, very thorough, in-depth explanation, thanks! What you said here I'd never connect myself, I thought it was because of my voice, and not about word "normal" or consequences out of it. Just wow.

Your story also helped as I'm practicing NOT telling things more and more. But the sad part is, now that I've learned a lot about this issue or general way people behave, I concluded that I used gas more than water 6 or 7 out of 10 to extinguish fire.

What I thought was reasonable, easy to understand, "normal" to behave was not. So why am I sad? Because I reached the point where things are very bad and who knows if they could ever return to relatively normal values with trust on both sides. I'm sad I didn't know this earlier and adjusted myself accordingly. But it is what it is. Acceptance is next I guess.

@Poppy
Thanks a lot buddy! Speaking of NPD parent and a partner, I have to say that wife and I met when we were very young. Like less than 20y of age. We were innocent as it gets. When I turn my memories back, I can see some parallels with early BPDs like she was more or or less always fearing of me rejecting her or not loving her. Always. Or me being on a pedestal, like she really loved me (which she did). But the truth is, back then I thought we were just kids and without any experience. She being feminine or fragile needed more love or so to say.

So I cannot really say 'oh I chose her because my father was a NPD', not in this case, because we were both far too young and naive to know anything about it. She was my first love too and I was hers. We still didn't have ourselves completely formed back then, but had some really good time together and that was all that mattered to us then.

So I called my psychiatrist to tell her about the issue of yesterday. She was assertive in a way that couldn't say much over the phone, but advised me to try marriage counseling, before any divorce or wife moving out. It would be bad for our daughter and ourselves (long way ahead of her if he chooses that road - her words), but I couldn't force anyone to stay if she was about to leave. I agreed.

Today I tried to talk to my wife, as compassionate and caring as I could. I heard stories and stories. Some were true, some were taken out of context, displaying only an emotion that persisted, some were exactly fuel-to-the-fire from my side, which I deeply regret now that I know better. All those things I said to her, how I didn't trust her, was mean, disapproving, she didn't feel good in our home, her needs were not met, nor did I care. I didn't try the pancakes she made few days ago (I tried not to laugh so I put my hand on my face), I didn't do much traveling, we argued, didn't greet her when she finished some courses (which I did but... yeah...) and on and on.

But she's cannot take it anymore and she already rented an apartment. Is it true or not, I cannot say, but could be. Anyway, she refused counseling as "there is no point anymore", "we had our time to fix things", "I was mean and didn't hear her" etc. I heard those stories every - single - time I tried to go to counseling with her. The only exception was the last time when she called me, but I refused for 2 weeks as was extremely tired to talk.

So... I insisted that, whatever the outcome, I cannot support her in moving out and disagree on that completely (psychiatrist told me to emphasize on that, to know that she's responsible and alone in this). I do know that she has her parents as her enablers, esp. her mother that never questioned her decisions about anything lately. So if she got their support, it would be much tougher task for me. And I'm 99% certain she has their support.

The only thing I said I would support was my daughter, without any conditions. And to know that it's nothing personal against her, just that I think our relationship is fixable with counseling.
Basically, I want to give myself time to do things, that's my hope about counseling. I know it's a long road ahead of me, but need to stop this train going backwards first with all of us in the passenger carriage hitting some greater rock.

What I've also seen, she genuinely feels hurt and suffering. Not playing games. But it's all about her. She did apologize for all bad and maddening things she said to me and my family (and those were some crazy sh stuff), but absolutely had no capacity to connect how her behaviour could affect me and our relationship. Zero. Nor did she remember that she was hostile and physically violent more than a month ago. "You know I don't do such things anymore and haven't done for a long time!" She thought that happened years ago, but I carefully made her remember it was this September. Overall, yes, it's less than it used to be, but far from "haven't done for a long time!". To no use, but still.

I would like some help about what to actually talk to a marriage counselor or how to approach this? She sees us as a healthy couple with some issues. She didn't see her behaviour at all. I've already seen my wife there - super kind, thinking and trying 10x as hard to stay calm and rational. She is ashamed of her behaviour deep down, she either projects or forgets. So she does not tell that anyone, even the therapist.

Me? I tended to be as rational as I could, but showed my temper, as my guidance was to try to solve the issues and show things the way as they were, not to hide my true self or claim something didn't happen if it did. But I was wrong. I was in disbelief and angry about what my wife said there, neglecting or saying stuff that hurt me didn't happen this year or so. Showed zero responsibility. That was before I started learning a lot about bpd, tools and issues. Now I know better.

I already see it will all be about me and how I behave. Of course I'm about to change my own behavior for the better. Now I know what should and shouldn't do. But I cannot state my true reasons, nor explain or say how irrational fears, swearwords and crazy accusations affected my mood and everything. I cannot provoke my wife at all or this is all going down the drain.

So, those that have been to marriage counseling with the knowing about this problem and some coping tools, how to avoid JADE while having any useful conversation there, but also avoiding a doormat mode? Any suggestions? Thanks  |iiii

What popped into my mind instantly was:  Boundaries.

Simple.  Basic.  Little need to justify, argue, defend, explain.  Over on our Tools & Skills Workshop board (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0) we have some excellent articles on boundaries.  You already know boundaries are resisted by acting-out persons with BPD.  Well, these boundaries are for us, for our responses.  Here's a hint I often use to describe the difference.  "If you do or don't do ___ then I will do or not do ___."  It's never that simple but that's one way to describe how our response can be the boundary.

the thing, i think, to understand, is that this sort of conversation is more a product of the relationship and its deterioration than the level of your voice or hers.

when a couple, any couple, has diminished trust to this extent, they fight about anything and everything. just breathing triggers each other. thats what that exchange sounds like.

granted, any couple where one person wakes up on the wrong side of the bed can have that kind of exchange here and there. i dont think thats what we are talking about though.

to that point, my advice wouldnt really be about one or two things you might have said or done, or not said or done, in that one exchange. you cant resolve conflict and long term resentment and distrust that way. you have to look at the much bigger picture.

Heh,
when a couple, any couple, has diminished trust to this extent, they fight about anything and everything. just breathing triggers each other. thats what that exchange sounds like.

That reminds me of a story.  I have a friend who at the end of her marriage, was woken up from a dead sleep by her STBX and told "You're stealing my air!" and forced her to roll over. 

When the ship is bashing on the rocks, communication suffers.  When under stress, I remind myself of what I have full control of: How I interpret, how I react, and what I choose to say in response. 

As I get older and more seasoned, I'm finding it best to slow reaction, remain neutral, and to say as little a possible.  I'm a very, very snarky person with a biting wit and that tendency has not served me well.  When I feel myself flooding, I attempt to calmly state to myself "I can think anything I want, but I also can choose not to say it".  Or...I say "...Interesting..." or "Interesting, let me think about that for a minute" to provide time between my initial emotional response and a more thought out response.  That gives me time to understand the situation and consider responses that will lead to a solution.  In some cases though, there is no response that will diffuse the situation.  For those times, I'm finding it best to be quiet for me.  Let the storm rage outside of me.   

Also, allow yourself a little grace.  Goodness knows you deserve it dealing with your situation. 

Be well.  CoMo

Mm, what you describe is very much like my wife of 15 yrs.  High achiever, attractive, charming, personable. I feel for you.

I never understood why this relationship was so different and difficult than others. I went to counseling for years, and learned about BPD.  While there’s been no formal diagnosis, the evidence is clear.

One of many examples:

Me:  “Hi dear, I’m on my way home, stopping at X to pick up a sandwich.  Can I bring you anything?

Her: “Oh thanks so much. Nope, I’ve already had lunch. See you in a bit”

At Home : Her: “ Hi, that looks good, did you bring me a sandwich?”

Me: “Um, no. I called and you didn’t want one”

Her: “ Well, you should have known to bring me one anyway!“

You’re always being set up to lose. I expect that now.

But learning about BPD  helped me understand, and gave me a bit more compassion.  And I learned that I could not react normally to bad behavior.   But I also could not excuse it.

It’s frustrating, and I liken it to Groundhog Day, the movie.

In a normal argument or discussion, you come away thinking, “ok, we hashed that out and agreed to compromise, or
agree to disagree, or something.  But we dealt with it”

W BPD, you start again every day the same. As if what you argued about never happened. It’s maddening.

And more so because you go a while and things are normal.  That gives you hope. Then the most minor perceived slight sets off a disproportionate reaction.

Which means you can never have a trusting, close and intimate relationship w them.  (That’s also your fault…”). Because the outbursts are a kick in the stomach

I have a teenager left at home. Im not sure what will happen, but I suspect there will come a day when we part ways.

In the meantime, I try to remain calm, encouraging, and upbeat.  Understanding that no amount of praise will be enough.

I no longer can participate in certain things. Can’t have family or friends to my home.  She will say inappropriate things,
Insult them, and embarrass me. So I gave up on that.

You may read a lot of hopeful messages. But the evidence I’ve read suggests it doesn’t get better with time.

A bummer, but I do my best for now bc I need to protect my daughter and make sense of things for her.

I wish you the best.

I don't even count how many times I had long talks with my W, thinking we finally agreed about something. Woohoo. But the next time we needed to talk (like, tomorrow), it would be exactly the same. I'd need to repeat the exact same sentences, exact same explanations, thoughts, reassurances etc. I learned not to even care, as I know it's only for now, literally for today or next few hours.

I would want to "warn" guys that are in bpd relationship, searching for therapists. Well, I learned the hard way that even if therapists have good references, doesn't mean he or she will actually do good.

I took some time contemplate and remembered the last time my wife had a depression and really asked a professional for help to get her life back on track. I remember that day, it was in 2017. She was really ready for it. She'd do anything therapist said to help herself. But sadly, the psychiatrist FAILED to see the root cause, instead blamed something that was the effect, not the cause. She gave her wrong reasons, wrong facts, assuming she was perfectly normal human being and steered her in another direction. My wife took her advice and tried to fix herself based on what was thought. She cured her depression, indeed, but at what cost?

Fast forward 2022, not only our marriage is collapsing, her thinking is way off the limits for a relationship. Before 2017. she was sensitive, sometimes depressed, but was much more honest, could apologize, talked about her feelings and emotions. We would hug, be intimate. Now it's all hidden behind the masks. Putting herself and her needs way above mine, entitlement, power-games, unable to see any wrongdoings and further engaging in bpd-traits.
And above else, she is beyond tired of going to therapy and seeking additional help. Her main excuse now is "well I did my therapy for months/years, what else do you want? Maybe you should go!" And for that I cannot blame her, as it does have some truth in it.

I feel bad because I didn't sense or know then what I know now. And feel sad because I think she or we wasted a perfect opportunity for her to really get back on track, as I read how much it is hard for bpd-guys to accept, let alone go to therapy. It is what a bad therapist with good reputation can do - waste a precious time and set you on a wrong course. I can only imagine what a good therapist that offered her DBT or CBT would do - I'd probably have a functioning wife now and meaningful relationship.

It’s true that therapists can mis-diagnose and not recognize signs of BPD. BPD manifests more prominently in intimate relationships, thus spouses and families can be much more cognizant of it than people on the outside.

In addition, since BPD is a shame-based disorder, often pwBPD who enter into therapy don’t fully disclose themselves to the therapist, and present their “best” selves, while blaming partners and parents for their *faults*.

At the beginning of therapy, there is a need to establish trust with the pwBPD, and thus, much of the sessions can be about validating, rather than challenging their model of the world. The frequent consequence of a therapist trying to get their BPD client to see other ways of thinking, results in discontinuing therapy or finding a different therapist.

Even with DBT, the preferred treatment for BPD, there has to be a willingness for change, which many pwBPDs do not have. As uncomfortable as their inner experience seems to be, and as disconcerting their behavior is to their partners, they are seemingly unwilling to learn new options.

It may be that you didn’t “waste a perfect opportunity” for your wife to “get back on track” but rather that she had absolutely no intention to do so.

That's true. In fact, I have witnessed that myself on couples counseling. Not once when I presented something she did during tantrums she found herself responsible. From "I don't know what you are talking about" to "why would I ever say that to you, it doesn't make any sense?". At first I thought she was doing it deliberately, but now I know better - it's the shame. Accepting this would be like opening the floodgates. I also figured that her solo sessions with therapists were just showing her best, like you said, exposing vulnerable bits that feel real and are actually an effect (e.g. exhaustion, anxiety, depression), not the root cause.

But, still, this psychiatrist failed here, big time. Because I went there as well, many times, also on my own. Even though I didn't know much about BPD at all, I explained some of the issues I faced. By that time her rage wasn't that violent (more verbal) so I mostly skipped some of the detail. My wife is a high-functioning one, for sure. But red flags were there.
And T didn't take them seriously at all. Rather than shift or change the established framework, she tried to squeeze everything I said to fit the existing one she already made. She had a scheme how to ease her depression and make her learn the new ways of thinking to avoid going back there. She already made up her mind about what my wife needs and what were the core issues. A big mistake.


Well, yeah, you could be right there as well. But check this out.
Say you and your therapist want to address your poor self-esteem or self-image. It's a good cause, right? But if you don't have any personal disorders, the lessons/tools thought there would be quite different. They were meant for non-pd guys. Otherwise, it's like reassuring a teenager that she can fly a jet plane, based on thinking that she had a prior flying experience and responsibility. Failing to see it's a long way ahead to even sit in the Cessna, let alone fly a jet.

Simply put, a pwBPD will twist the advice and see it differently, based on her/his perception. The therapists must be aware of this prior, otherwise the damage will be even greater, as pwBPD will get the reassurance, use the tools that weren't even meant for them and use them wrongly.

So, do I know my wife would accept going to DBT if suggested then? Who knows, maybe not. But if therapist suspected the issue there, based on my support and gently tried to make it work, then yes, I could see my wife trying it at least. She was way more honest to herself and me then and desperate to fix her issues. At least she was aware that she had issues, now it's like - I'm fixed, I'm good. I just need a bit of fine tuning and polish. I invested so much of my time and energy into this with a professional - and that's really true.

After all, she has no depression, little to no anxiety now, takes no pills, has much higher self-esteem than before (or so she shows), she enjoys herself - life is good. But at the expense of our relationship, intimacy, my support and all those masks she puts to maintain some of the above. I'm not trying to imply that she didn't do the hardwork herself to overcome some of those issues, but the biggest, fundamental one still remains.

Well, it seems that therapy was a “success” for your wife in that she feels better about herself, but a “failure” for your relationship.  :hug:

Especially with high functioning pwBPD, I believe it’s easy for therapists to overlook signs of a personality disorder. They too, may be under the influence of the charming personality a pwBPD can present, much like we were, at the beginning of our relationships.

Acknowledging this, where do you go from here?

It is very possible that none of these therapists are aware of, or know enough about, BPD to comment or make a rough diagnosis.  Or, they won't say it for fear the BP could come back to them.  As said, everything sounds BP and to a degree mimics my own experience.   The losing it part especially which can lead to self-doubt and issues of anxiety if not kept in check.   

Sorry for replying to an old post - but I mostly disagree with this.  I agree that a statement that "your behavior is the cause of the problem" is not constructive for solving a conflict, but that does not mean the statement is not true.  On small situations, sure.  My wife would say that me forgetting to bring the kids' water bottles is the cause of the problem.  To me, forgetting something is part of life.  From my perspective, there was no problem until my wife reacted harshly to me making an honest mistake.  Likewise, if she loads the dishwasher incorrectly, it is not a problem unless I make a big deal about it. 

But on more serious (abusive) issues, I completely disagree, and sounds like victim blaming.  I could come home from work and my W may immediately yell and scream at me and call me names.  I then choose to leave the room/house to not be in the path of her abuse.  IT IS A SURVIVAL MECHANISM.  But she will claim the cause of the "problem" is me walking away, or my reaction to her behavior.  That is simply not true, because her screaming and calling me names is already a problem no matter how I react. 

I have been told that MC go under the assumption that the conflict is not "abusive", and that if there is abuse involved the situation goes beyond the MC toolbox. 

Other issues may be at play here, too.  Remember, there is no "cure" for BPD and no medicine that helps.  On top of that, there is a very poor and hopeless image for this disorder.  Diagnosing someone BPD probably serves little good.  It also may be easier to get services for a patient if they are given other diagnoses, especially from an insurance stand point.   An insurance company may me more willing to cover medicines and therapies for someone who is bipolar, has "major depressive disorder", or "complex PTSD".  My wife's T knows she was diagnosed BPD many years ago.  But her T tends to focus not on the diagnosis but on therapies for the individual symptoms.  A therapist may miss BPD at first, but I am willing to bet most would have some inclination after half a dozen sessions. 

Many things have changed since I started this thread. Lots of things went for the better - her rage, loads of verbal crap that she used to say during episodes, got toned down and last less time. She's controlling anger better than ever and can be reasoned with faster. I guess it's also because I learned not to engage and add fuel to the fire, with more understanding. Win-win, eh?

Well, not quite. If before she was about to leave and start a new life with our daughter, now she's all about staying, getting our lives and times back together, realizing how much we loved each other (23 years together), stuff we built from scratch, our family and all we've been through. And I have known her for so long that I know she's speaking the truth here, or she wants to believe.

So where is the problem?

Well, back at the masks she learned to put on at T sessions. When she's not afraid of losing it all, she's all about herself and our daughter, showing little affection to me, taking for granted and getting comfortable that I'm here for support, chat, parenting etc. She does try to "be there" for me, in her own, rather superficial way. And that's usually the opposite of what I actually need. Besides, I'm introvert, she's extrovert, that further makes this little more complicated.

Intimacy has been hit with a rock. I talked to her so many times and it didn't get better. I think she doesn't know the answer herself, as most of her real emotions and fears are hidden under masks, as this is all shame/remorse related. She just hits replies like "oh you already have that honey, remember when... you're not right, we had this and that etc." She's highly intelligent and can take bits of everything I said and come up with something logical to persuade or reassure me, even though I know that's not how it really happened or is one-sided.

If I want anything to happen, I need to approach her, every_single_time. At one point I was questioning myself, my personality. She's like afraid to be intimate or to show her "loose" side and is rather superficial and transaction-based.

And then that dreaded "radar mode" where she's addressing my behaviour. Was I rude or nice, if/when I kissed her or showed her affection and if I didn't why not. She's always in search for something, but rarely embeds the same logic to herself. I got tired of these. As an introvert, I tend to just shutdown. That triggers her and goes on with "how come you hugged me in bed, but you don't approach me tenderly in RL now?".

So back to your question again - where do I go now? I still have feelings for her. I love her, I'm attracted to her. If she passed by me in the streets, you bet I'd be looking at her (funny thing is, it already happened. I was staring at someone, from her toes to her head, realizing it was her, with delayed "oh, it's you sweetie!"). She's a lively and joyful person deep down, loyal to a fault and a loving mother. I'm incredibly sad she doesn't see herself that way, without all those needs for validation and those dreadful masks she puts on to look tougher in our relationship.

If we could go back to the way she used to care about us as a couple, I'd be ready to live on with a high-functioning pwbpd. The good would far outperform the bad, and now I know better.

But the way it is now, my hunt for her affection, mixed with this never-ending scanning of my behaviour, ego-centered, transaction-based intimacy of "I'm expecting something without actually looking at your needs", "I did this, you should do that"... I can hardly see myself in it for life. In fact, if this is the new norm, then I cannot wait to restart everything from scratch. And it pains me to think that way.

At least we are having more meaningful conversations about us, whether to keep on going or live separately. Little more time is needed for sure, but certainly not years. If you have any more tips to help sort affection issues in bpd's, please share.

Not to second-guess you here, but does this positive upswing ever occur prior to things getting pushed all the way out to the edge of the cliff?  I'm speaking from the experience of the cycles I have endured for the last 15 years.  Everything is negative, negative, negative until the line is about to snap... then she reels it back in and starts over.

I'm watching this again right now.  Immediately after what was (now) a rare direct exchange with my uBPDw the other night, now rather than melting into the couch every evening watching t.v. while she simultaneously wastes endless hours on social media, I come in late and hear her downstairs reading stories to the kids like she's supermom... and I can tell that she's making sure I hear it.  Sorry for being cynical, but it's just a response to a set of circumstances like you outlined above -- it will fade away.

I feel you, I know what you mean. I'm sorry what are you going through. Yes, that did happen and does happen, even though I believe it was genuine now, at least for her. I truly believe she'd love to be like the way she claims. But in 7 out of 10 that's not what will actually happen in real life, long term.

We all share different stories. Some are mild and some are extreme and downright frightening. But in my case, sadness is the word now. I'm incredibly sad my wife cannot see herself and her behavior nowadays. She's as brittle as a flake, tender, then next minute she asks me those dreadful "are you abandoning me?" questions, hears something discouraging and puts a badass bitch mask to hide her sadness and shame, irritating the hell of me for a minute, but deep down I already see this rather transparent disguise. There isn't any rage or anger anymore, it's just sad.

She is capable of so much more. When she's out of that pitiful, sludge of emotions, she can be the best girl ever. Smart, witty, joyful and highly attractive. And I'm the guy with empathy and can just feel her sadness myself.

But I just cannot tell her - honey, you are guarding and safekeeping the junkyard with your life 24/7, while the gold is hidden deep down and left unattended.

One more thing. I started thinking that we are living in my own apartment. I inherited it from my mother before marriage.

Do you think a partner should be mindful of that? I'm not thinking about it in a sleazy, manipulative "you should be grateful!" way, but just having an awareness.

Because I didn't make any boundaries regarding our ... my flat. I was treating it like - it's ours. Should be ours.

But lately, maybe I'm being more self aware or selfish. But I asked myself - why would I tolerate this in my own apt? Just why? If someone is unable to appreciate this life, what we do have (zero mortgage, no loans/credit) maybe there's no hope for anything better. Samone is just taking everything for granted.

Further, I was trying to picture myself doing crap for years and living in HER aparment, if she had one, and I couldn't see her tolerating my BS to be honest.

What is your take on this? Does this make any sense? I don't even know how is it like in normal relationships on this matter.

Since I didn't have Instagram, only fb, I created an account for my job. Out of curiosity I went on the profile of my wife.

And oh well... She's not the girl that sends hundreds of images, but more like important and nice events of her life, together with a lot of text (she's a writer).

Every single image is of her... or with our daughter. Last time she put me there was 56w ago. So why this sucks so much? There were many events where we went together. Thought we had a great time, did selfies and groupies, only to see it was all about her, without even mentioning me in the text, anywhere. At the same time, on my fb profile, I put all of our images from those events (that I wanted to share anyway). And of course she's there, tagged as well.

This only proves something I suspected many moons ago - it's all about her in our marriage now. Or more precisely - her job, her sports and our daughter. I'm not on that list at all. No wonder my gut had a bad feeling about this for months. No wonder our intimacy and connection is all-time low.

Therapist once told me "yeah, well, she took off, discovering herself and flying high, while you remained on the ground" to which I replied "oh nice, so while she's flying high, there's someone down there to do the 'boring' stuff - me". Tending our apartment, our pets, garden, paying taxes and lots of house responsibilities. And of course - our daughter, that I share at least 50% of responsibilities daily.

Is she making herself look better, boosting her ego or self esteem? Will that ever end? I find it difficult to be honest and open with her anymore. At times when I thought both of us had a great time and genuinely felt we connected again, I now know she had herself on mind, first and foremost.

A bitter taste it is. I don't remember how many times I tried to talk about this, but every single time I was dismissed and told I was exaggerating things.

Alright, another chapter is in the writing.

She's officially out, took her things out of our/my apartment and went to her parents, to where our daughter is already (though she thought for summer vacation). My father in law is a good man and he isn't even suspecting. We were even texting today. I feel very bad for him and gutted to know how she will portray me to him.

Prior to this were minor fights and misunderstandings, like:

a) Going for a walk in 11:30pm, telling me it's only to stretch her legs, then arriving home at 1:20am, to which I responded quite angrily with "you should have texted me or called me, I was worried. People normally go for a walk for 30min to an hour, not 2h and in the middle of the night!"
She told me I was controlling, I was not her dad, should have called her instead if I was worried. Yeah. I should have, could have responded better, she has BPD. I was invalidating her. But I couldn't. I had enough of that childish behavior. She's 39 not 12.

b) I woke up and noticed she removed our picture from her desk yet again and placed herself instead. This was something she was doing for months. She knew I loved that picture of us and was deliberately hiding it, removing it, telling me the cleaning lady did it, etc.
I went bonkers, told her how pitiful it was to do that again, then went to our "tree" of photographs, pulled one of us and tore it apart. Naturally, I was at fault for losing my temper, doing such hurtful things. Zero responsibility on her part. I said I was sorry, as I did lose it and replaced that photo with another one, telling her it's not in my being to do such things, even when I'm hurt.

c) Yesterday, after a short trip she was coming home. All felt good. We were texting, she was sending images, I was making jokes. She told me that she loved me and bought me some wine as a gift.

It couldn't go bad, right? RIGHT?

Of course it could. Right after she parked, she called me on the phone and told me "come down to help me". I was in the middle of my job, in my pants and told her "I will come to help you, as I always do, but why are you so authoritative, can you by a chance drop "please" in it? Like I do it for you when I need help with something."

It's like the hell gates opened in front of me. Immediately after I regretted it, but part of me was just overflowed with this caretaker role.

She hung up the phone, turned it off, then texted me to don't call her again. Telling me she was feeling bad and throwing up. I noticed the madness I was in and tried to cool it off by saying I was sorry, shouldn't welcome her coming home with some demands etc. - I know it was BS, but I tried it.
Nothing helped. It soothed her a bit then she went on about other things and how I wasn't really sorry. Meanwhile, I was on my el. scooter, trying to find her in our neighborhood. Did she take that as a sign of good will on my side? Of course not. It's for granted. It's perfectly normal for people to be hiding and being chased by family members that have nothing else in their lives to do.

It ended up with a big fight, lasted almost till 2am. I couldn't get out, trying to calm her. Nope. She was in 100% crazy mode, yelling, her eyes were about to pop out. I tried to reason with her. She was saying how utterly stupid she was for trying to patch our relationship, should have ended it long ago!

She was in a complete turbulence. She was getting dressed and undressed at least 4 times, saying that she would leave in the middle of the night. Then stay. Then go. Then stay. Go tomorrow.
I was about to get to bed and was being accused of going to sleep like a baby while she was bursting in tears. When I tried to comfort her, she refused.
I told her this cannot go much longer and I cannot tolerate this drama anymore. But I begged her to stop this madness and go to sleep, tomorrow is a new day.

Well new day (today) made nothing for the better. Same (patho)logic remained. I thought maybe she'd cool off. Nope. Generally I noticed that even though there was no junkyard coming out of her mouth, the way it used to be, the tradeoff was that she couldn't be reasoned with. It's like NOTHING could pull her from that vicious emotional circle when she's in. Music, some external stories, hugging, jokes, looks, cats, images, nothing. Only her job.

Maybe I myself was the trigger (as I read on one article here).

I tried to talk and reason with her today at least 5 times, while she was packing her luggage. I used all sort of "tricks", from hugging to being gentle and calm. Nothing. I asked her if she really thought that yesterdays fight was big enough reason to end this all? She was like 'no but it was enough'. I said - do you feel any responsibility on your part? We could have shrugged it all of then drank some wine you know.
She went mad - then why we didn't? but kept cool continuing - yeah, I have a tiny bit of responsibility, but I'm not alone in this relationship. You cannot command me and mold me the way you want. You did this and that etc etc.

me: "maybe therapist could help you know?"
w: "yeah, I'm glad you will go and seek therapy"
me: "after the things from yesterday, I think you could benefit one as well"
w: "get out, I'm packing stuff and leaving"
 
How do I feel now? Very sad, but kind of relieved. It breaks my heart to say this, after 23 years of being together and everything we been through. I honestly didn't think we would end on this small, pitiful issue, without any closure. This was barely civilized.

I feel guilty and bad about how she bought me/us some wine as a present, hoping some happier times would follow. That is almost too painful for me. If you want to hit me where I'm the weakest, then it's when I turn bad on people that wanted to do something positive and good - or so it seems. I don't think it was manipulation per se, she did buy this gift for the good occasion. I still cannot believe how one can turn from a loving, caring individual to a complete desperate monster in a matter of minutes.

But you know what? Damn the relationship if one could go totally mad, without any remorse and leave for good after me saying one sentence that didn't sound right or wasn't right. If it didn't end today, it would have ended tomorrow or day after.

I think I recognize the state you're in right now, thougths and feelings flying around inside your head. The one thing I can say for sure is that you will calm down eventually and see things clearer than now.

This is the reason I nowadays try not to react emotionally myself - to avoid being in that emotional space I believe you're in now. For me, that feeling of chaos only lasts a day or two, so hang in there.

Why do you think she won't be back in a day or two and do you want her to come back or not? Does it feel like things are moving too quickly now?

What works for a while often doesn't work as well over time.  Almost like the pwBPD gets sensitized to one approach.  That's why having a variety of alternate tools and skills (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0) can help.


Actually, there is more than a hint of truth in it.  I too wondered why my ex would get so very angry at me.  In the earlier years she would get angry at others who got close to her.  Then it was me, as though she was sensitized to me.  It was a sign that (1) I was close to her and (2)she felt she could privately rage at me and (3) I had changed in her perceptions, from being a spouse to becoming a father.

Thanks for the tools. It's one way to read and learn and completely another to execute that when it's needed. And here I even forgot other tools existed.


You have a good point. I think my wife too sees me more of a father than her husband/partner. When she's not talking about sports and her job, she's ALL about our daughter. Yes she has special needs and my W's bond with her is immense.
But sometimes she's cuddling and talking with her like she should with her partner. She's a good mother, but it's like she's almost trying to get the love from our daughter she should get from me. I think she substituted our love, as her way of thinking is probably "well, at least my daughter will never abandon me, like he did".
She's actually believing I manipulated and mistreated her, I read that on her notes. I couldn't believe it, thought she was mentioning someone else, but it was me.

I remember when my W was young, in her early 20s, she was telling me how her brother and parents used to tell her to never bond with anyone closely as "it will ultimately fail and you will feel rejected and bad". Things changed now, her father was an alcoholic, but has been treated and sober for decades. He is now the wisest and most sincere of them all.
Still, she was actually raised with that sort of thinking when she was young and sadly, it left the visible mark.

That's how it usually lasts for me too. But it goes in waves... I feel good, relieved, then all painful thoughts and memories come back, haunting me. Maybe I should have been better, more caring, should have, could have, shouldn't done this etc... I'm generally a nostalgic person and it's a killer combo for these kind of issues.


Actually she came today to leave our daughter with me and felt refreshed and much more calm than yesterday. Still, the way she packed things and all, I don't see she'll be back soon or anything close to that.

Yes, it's moving quickly.
I take responsibility here as well. Not just the way I acted and boosted her BPD issues. She was noticing my ambivalence for months, even though I tried to hide it. She's super sensitive and can always see through me.

Part of me truly want to fix, heal, go to counseling, change the perspective, communicate better and live the life. To have the quality of love we had many years ago. To have a whole family again. Learning new ways, I still have feelings for her.

But part of me says "no, stop, you have done too much already. Your gut is screaming. Some of your friends would have given up long, long ago without ever turning back. Maybe you should just split, remain friends and share parenting roles".

I'm sure part of the reason she left was because she sensed this. And I cannot lie, I am ambivalent and cannot point to any direction fully now. Is that normal in these circumstances?
Also I'm sensing my codependency issues as well. Much better than year ago, but have so much to change and learn.

This is also the case for me, I would consider it normal. I desperately long to end the relationship but I'm unsure if it's just a phase in the detachment process in which I'm becoming someone apart from her, or if this is how I'll feel indefinitely. Also our long complex history, all our inside jokes and the love we share for our children. Don't think this is only related to bpd, more about my view on love and commitment. Ironically as she has accused me of never committing to anything.

It just takes one short good conversation with her and I often start to imagine maniging these circumstances for life. Be the strong partner who holds everything together. One minute later she might follow up with something utterly ridiculous and my mood sinks.

This all makes it impossible to commit to any direction. Just biding my time and observing myself becoming stronger.

Don't take this the wrong way, but somehow, the more I think about us - partners with BPD spouses, the more I see how damaged we are.

Distorted views, hot-cold thinking, clinging on the best when they say or do, feeling that we are going crazy when they go mad, ambivalence, ruminating about them... We are in their waters, trying to swim in their weather conditions, searching for an isle or something stable to stay. Their ways and their rules with us seeing it's all delusional, but having no option other than to sink or swim.


I had a long talk with my W today over the phone. We talked for more than an hour, seemed to be fine, then I said something bad (?) and she was trying again to push me offline. This time I managed to tone it good and she was again fully in control so we continued. It was literally walking on eggshells.

She asked me to think if I want to change, to stop being rude, arrogant, or have my mood swings, to appreciate who she is, to respect her as a person and be glad that she is happy and good. Because she's happy for me and expect the same for her. To never say how she's in the clouds, flying high, irrational, how she's a psychiatric case (I don't remember saying that actually but yeah) and that she was getting me frustrated. If I cannot agree on all of that we are heading divorce.

In 80 minute talk, she mentioned her teeny tiny responsibility one time then went on saying other things.

The way I see it, she's suggesting me to accept a time bomb. I have seen it long enough to know that it's not if but when will it go off.

I have a lot of to do on myself - treat codependency, reinforcing the tools and boundaries, trying to further tone down my own temper, be better with words, be more compassionate, think about myself and my well-being more.

But will that be enough? Will ever something be enough? Is there a "hook" for BPDs that we, nonPD's can use it for our advantage in situations like these?

I think no matter how I try, the bomb will tick. Like it did during our conversation, where for 77 minutes we were on the page, then one singe line was somehow threatening for her and was enough to start losing it and getting frustrated. It's literally 77min vs 3min and 3min of craziness wins every time.

Is there any hope here? Does separation and living apart makes something go better or not? My gut tells me various stuff, but I'd really love to hear veterans if possible.
@Cat Familiar are you there? You are incredibly wise and seen a lot. I especially like that you are actually still living with a BPD spouse and somehow managed it all. Thanks.

Thanks for the kind words, MM. Yep, I’ve seen a lot since all my important relationships have been with individuals with personality disorders (except for my dad, but he became incredibly damaged after so many years of living with my mother). Wise? I don’t know about that part. Talk is easy. Changing behavior is hard.

You’ve brought up some very insightful and important points:

the more I think about us - partners with BPD spouses, the more I see how damaged we are.

Distorted views, hot-cold thinking, clinging on the best when they say or do, feeling that we are going crazy when they go mad, ambivalence, ruminating about them... We are in their waters, trying to swim in their weather conditions, searching for an isle or something stable to stay. Their ways and their rules with us seeing it's all delusional, but having no option other than to sink or swim.


So many of us here had a parent with a personality disorder. From a very early age, we learned to tolerate and excuse unkind and thoughtless behaviors, because this was all we knew. And then, feeling remorse, often our parent would behave in ways that were so kind and loving, we felt like everything was perfect…and it was…only for a moment.

This was a set-up for us partnering with a BPD spouse. It felt familiar, since it was—we had grown up *swimming in these waters*, to use your metaphor.

The difference is that we are now on an equal footing with our partner, compared to being subordinate to our parent. If we haven’t developed a strong sense of self, which might not have happened if a BPD parent has tried to make us into a *mini-me*, we can be too accommodating and tolerant of behaviors that would send emotionally healthy people running for the door. Continuing with this pattern for many years results in not giving our partners the necessary feedback on how their behaviors are affecting us.

And over time, the built up resentment that this will create in us, can cause us to snap, and say and do things that are outside our normal character.

You are right, that many of us here, probably a very high percentage, are *damaged*, some from growing up in a dysfunctional family, and some from living in a dysfunctional relationship.

Acknowledging this is a good first step and wanting to do something about it is a sign of emotional health. (This is a far different experience than with people with BPD who know they are damaged, yet are afraid of looking within and trying to do something about it.)

It sounds like you are not certain if you’d like this relationship to continue. Whether or not it does, you will still be interacting with her for years to come, since you have a daughter. And if you decide to go your separate ways, you could easily find yourself in another relationship some time later.

Now would be an excellent time to work on your own issues. We all have them and they seem endless…fix one…and another one pops up…like a cafeteria tray. lol

From what I’ve read in your thread, it sounds like you and your wife are so ultra-sensitized to each other at this point, that it doesn’t take much to set off an argument. Unlike with an emotionally healthy partner, engaging in arguments with a pwBPD will result in no positive outcome, no “I see what you mean,” no “That must have hurt when I said that,” no “I didn’t realize…,” no “I’m terribly sorry for my part,” no “You must have thought I was utterly thoughtless…” etc.

Arguments for a BPD partner only further cement their position that they are being abused or betrayed.

It would be nice to be able to have a meeting of the minds and to come up with renewed vows to work on the relationship, but you are married to an emotionally disabled woman, and to continue with the relationship, this is something you’ll have to accept.

I think it can be even harder to see the disability when one’s partner is rather functional in the world. I observed that with my mother. My friends thought she was great! However they only saw a tiny slice of the totality of her personality.

Whether or not your relationship survives, perhaps you can call this time a *therapeutic separation* and throw your energy into working on your part. This will benefit you in countless ways, and will serve you well in coparenting. Should your marriage end, you will be even a better partner for a future romantic relationship.

Don't be shy.  :hug: That's understandable, for all of us. All we can do here is talk. But what you say is far more relatable and gives some introspection and food for thought.



Unfortunately, yes, correct.
It's been 7 days since she moved out. First few days were the hardest. I go to the kitchen and see her favourite cups, things and food she used, her stuff allover the house and now she's gone. I had my share with permanent or forced losses of my family members, so I won't hide that this triggered similar feelings and felt awful.

But it's better now, for her too. I'm working on my own boundaries - my core values and those that are changeable. We do see each other outdoors. She even came here when I was with our daughter and we had some fun talking. Yesterday we went on the beach together and met some of our friends there. It felt good, a bit estranged, but good vibes.

In fact, I have noticed that she'd like to move back, but I'm more than reluctant to accept it. Despite having no drama and both of us feeling good, I sensed several times that little to nothing changed in her thinking (well, as expected). She just cooled off. All blame is on me. Intimacy still zero - the separation didn't trigger the long for romantic closeness on her side.

She still probes our relationship with questions like "so how do you feel now? You seem rather happy alone, so it must be that our relationship is over" or "you don't miss me, otherwise, you'd do something to take me back". I replied, "honey, you see that we are all better and more calm, we need to set a healthy ground first", to which she very much agreed. Though I expect these kind of questions to emerge again.

Meanwhile, as it is, she wants to continue living as of now - her job, sports and our daughter being 95% of her time, with me doing the backstage caretaking, house work and being happy that she is happy.

Do I want that? No. I find it so much easier to tend the apt. on my own. I hear no excuses, I just do it, several small things per day and it's already visible. I feel good on my own. I'm lonely, miss the past times. But at least there's no drama, silent treatments, unspoken turbulence of emotions or my own unfulfilled expectations. Life seems so much easier. I work on my job better and more efficient.

Though my ambivalence kicks in as well - do I want to be with her? Yes. For our daughter, for what we built over the years, I still have feelings for her. Still think it's manageable with changes (biggest on my part). Even though we are apart, we still share common interests.
I'm realizing, to continue I'd have to be a caretaker for life. But things need to be changed for good, with the relationship as a whole. My wildcard (or the only card) is the counseling. We'd go together this week and I will go on my own too, soon. To have a better view of myself and our relationship. I'm not expecting miracles, but maybe something good could be made there. SET technique does wonders. I'm very impressed how it turned out, I can be reasoned with my wife quite easily.


Something I haven't heard for a very, very long time. Like, years. And that would be a game changer for us. It would literally bring life in our relationship and give me hope that not all is futile.



Thank you, words of wisdom for sure.

Manic Miner, I'm sure you're experiencing a lot of challenging emotions right now. Twenty-Three years is a very long time. I can say that after my relationship ended, I was really concerned about how easily I was flying into a rage. It was problematic. I even went to my therapist with my concerns asking for resources. He didn't really give me any, which I was sort of annoyed about, at the time.

One of the things I've read repeatedly is that partners with BPD and other high-conflict personalities will tend to adopt some of the personality traits including a bad temper.

After being separated for more than a year, maintaining minimal contact with my co-parent with BPD, I'm noticing that my temper has really improved. Almost on its own. Certainly, when I recognize I'm becoming angry I take some steps to rein myself back in. However, the Amygdala Hijack I used to experience on a regular basis happens far less frequently. I feel more and more like my old self. So the good news is that in my case the adopted trait seems to pass over time.

Give yourself time. You're going through a lot. Definitely accept your role in the potential causes that lead to this current breakup. However, don't let yourself fall into the narrative that she is providing where you need to be the one making all the changes.

The truth is you're a very good person who has bent over backwards to preserve this relationship for the good of your daughter. From the sounds of things, far better than I could or did.

Please be strong, and remember there are a lot of us out there that can empathize with your situation.

@EZEarache  thanks a lot on kind, supportive words and understanding. It means a lot, especially now.


You mean, we non-bpd tend to adopt high-conflict behaviour from them or they take it from us when we are angry? I think both ways are true.

What I started being aware of is mirroring. How much she mirrored me or her friends she admired. At first it was great, like - wow, we all share and like same stuff! Hooray. But then novelty wore off or something just didn't seem right. As an INFP-T, I have a highly sensitive intuition. For months I was like - why she suddenly stopped loving something she used to? Or, how come the music we both loved suddenly means nothing to her? Yes, people change and their taste changes as well, but this was so abrupt and so drastic.

Then I realized, when she started "getting afraid" of me and lost the emotional contact, all of that pulled various other stuff she mirrored from me. She started mirroring her friends, trying to be like them to the point of me telling her - Honey, you don't need to be a pushover, to instantly jump and do what they do, the way they do! Like, take your time, use the bits you like, refuse the other. Then I was being told I was negative and nonsupportive.

One day I was being angry, telling to myself - why this woman doesn't seem to have any strong opinion about something? She just seems to go with the flow with the people she likes? And that's before I read about mirroring and loss of identity.

Why mirroring is bad in a relationship, I learned the hard way. Assuming you are good, non-exploitable person, even if you are unaware of mirroring, you can use it to your own advantage in a healthy way. For example, you want to organize to go somewhere, do something. Go to a happy place on summer holidays you thought you both loved. There's 90% chance your high-functioning BPD parther will agree, be your company and go with you. All good, right? For a while.
While it can be good in some ways, it's all about you and your organization. As soon as you stop doing that or you are unable to go for whatever reason, your bpd partner will also stop. What you thought was her passion, love, happiness and having fun was mostly because of you. This means if you lose your will, be reluctant, sad or hard to go, there won't be anyone to push you there again. You will have to push yourself even on the bad days.
She can push you to some place she likes (next interesting thing she finds out) or found by her friends, but that won't be the same you thought you both had passion for. That was frustrating me so much and it seemed discouraging, as my introverted personality doesn't like change for the sake of change, especially not stuff or places that are beautiful and have a lot of to discover or use.

Yes, what I meant is that we adopt the high conflict personality trait. At least I did, and it seems to be fairly common.

However, yes, I experienced mirroring, on her side also. It was definitely noticeable to me with music as you mentioned. I am a musician and I have a major pet peeve regarding poorly written songs, that tend to flood the radio. When we first started dating, "Oh, I'm a classic rock girl." Not my favorite type of music but it's preferable to the crappy dance, "music" that floods the airwaves these days. Once she had our baby, I would complain about the crappy pop music she would listen to on the radio. This inevitably turned into an argument where I became the bad person for not having an open mind, or being critical of everything.

Personally, I think I have a very open mind to music. I listen to a lot of really avantgarde stuff, that leaves most people scratching their heads. However, I also have an educated opinion on what constitutes a corny chord progression and original drum beat. Towards the end of our relationship, I stopped voicing my opinion on why the music we were listening to was bad and just cringed anytime she was driving.

In hindsight this dynamic spilled over into most facets of our life together.

For good or for bad, she refused to make any new friends of her own, despite my prodding. So, I never got to observe the new friend's influence on her behavior.

It's a very common thing. (C) AdamW

Before I knew better, I used to endlessly explain, as I thought if I'd use some logic, we'd both see what went wrong.

Very rarely there were some mild physical attacks during her rage, like pushing me on the bed, spilling the tea from my cup, sticking her nails to my hand etc. One time, I found it very hard to resist. I couldn't and I slapped her and started cursing. Long story short, she moved to her parents for a couple of days with "he got mad and hit me" line and I was solely accused of uncontrollable rage and needed therapy.

Of course I apologized heavily, but I knew I wasn't the one that started and alone in this. This was about 3 years ago.
I went to my therapist, explained to her in detail what happened. I was embarrassed by my action, as I never, ever hit anyone before. She explained to me everything and started working on my triggers and controlling the situation before escalating. I asked her "does it matter who starts first?" she said "It does" and told me to call my W to come alone next time.
My wife went there and I was so nervous at home. I was thinking either she will go into tantrum mode or my therapist will say everything she doesn't want to hear.
Turned out the latter was the case. My W rang on the door, entered our apt. without saying a word, complained about heavy migraine headache, laid on sofa and asked to turn off the lights. Literally uttered no other words. That never happened before. I asked how it went and all I got was "oh, a bit of this and that, she explained as you know, I cannot talk anymore".

That's how she reacts when faced with the truth by "authority" (therapist) where she cannot behave badly. My T told me afterwards that she explained to her that she was responsible for starting the rage that spread, offering some tools to cool it off. That was like 180 degree turn from what she and her parents wanted to believe.

So back to your statement, yes, as I have learned - rage and bad behaviour spread like fire if you cannot control it yourself, lack tools or are in a hurtful mood.


Oh, a fellow musician! I play keyboards myself, for fun. But yeah, music is very important to me. Like your ex, my wife started playing summer hits on the radio when alone. I have no probs with dance pop music. Some of it is a guilty pleasure for me as well, but it was so obvious that without me playing and selecting the music, she'd never play that. Before, she was a diehard fan of many bands (much of those that I liked)... nowadays, only a few. Radio is always a safe bet.


As well man, as well. When communication and common interests fade, taboo themes start growing.

Few weeks passed since we separated and here's the update.

1) Went to the counseling together. Not much good happened there, as expected. I did expect a tiny bit more. She started talking loud there like a child "No, I won't come back! I won't! Why should I? I'm so better alone and more peaceful!" If this weren't serious, it would be funny as hell - she said this in that typical childish tone. She's done but hoping "please can we be together?" somewhere in her mind.

2) She started texting me big messages how we are done, she's deeply hurt and how divorce is the only option, to conclude with "what do you offer for me to come back anyway?"

3) I offered for us to cool our heads and go for a weekend together, to hike and visit some historical neolithic locations. Her first response was "Do you want us to go alone or with our daughter?" which was a big surprise. Like how does her mind work at all? I said "however you like, if you think only two of us would be even better, alrighty!" She replied she will think about it.

4) Day passed, not a single text or message from her. No response, even though we agreed to at least text me how is our daughter doing. Anyway, 2 days ago she told she'd bring our daughter to me today to which I replied "of course, just say when I will be there", but completely forgot and started blaming our bad agreement, hardship of life and how I don't even know what's it like to live alone and get the job done with our daughter. :)

Really? I mean, she's at her parents house that do most of the chores, cooking, cleaning for her, no home bills to pay, tending our daughter when she's working. And I'm literally alone, with my animals, my little terrace garden and everything that needs to be cleaned, cooked, bought, looked after. With my job and everything. And I still find the time and keep up with agreements and promises. When she says this to me, I'd literally want to cut it all and be done with her for good. On a good note, she noticed her screw up and offered to bring our D to me later this day. This will make her drive 2x more. She couldn't just be done with it - hey I screwed up, I forgot. I needed to hear all the hardships of her life BS and how I don't even know. Sometimes I think she says that to soothe herself.

You're so right about that. It should be written in bold, so I did it.
If only I knew this ages ago my life (and hers) would be so much better. I always felt deep inside that it's always fair to be polite and offer choices to reach mutual agreement. In fact, without choices I'd feel like I'm forcing someone or something.

But yeah, many times I hesitated or waited for her, it went downhill and was even blamed for my indecisiveness, with lots of ? above my head, as I couldn't comprehend why.
The best outcome was always when I had 2 plans ahead and just presented it - we do this and that. Full stop. That's dictatorship in my book, but the more I live the more I see that some people need that, otherwise total anarchy is on the rise.

Maybe I'm masochistic but I still deeply care about her. I wouldn't want anything bad to happen to her, my caretaker role is inside me for good I guess. She's a caring mother of our girl as well. If I knew she'd be alright by herself, on her own (with our daughter ofc), I'd feel tremendous relief. She's smart, artistic, excels at her job, but there was always me to hold her back and do the backstage work. I always joked that I had two children with special needs - my daughter and my wife.  lol

Thanks for the update, I was wondering how you are fairing. It sounds like you are still in limbo and hoping for a more positive outcome.



From my experience you can expect this to be a constant refrain. Even after we moved into a 50/50 split arrangement, I've been told I'm still not living up to my end of the agreement for making the mistake of asking her opinion on a medical issue.



This will most likely come with a price tag in the future, as well. If you ever make a similar mistake, I advise you do the same thing and drive twice as far, or you'll never hear the end of how, "I did it when..., and you can't even return the decency... etc."

Best wishes, and I hope you continue to find the best path forward for you both.

Thanks on good wishes. At least your ex gave you 50/50. Mine doesn't even want to think about it. D is her and it's end of story. Can't be reasoned and both parents need to co-op for 50/50.

When asked why, what is she afraid of, I don't get any reasonable answer. My take is money. In 50/50 there is no alimony. I told her I'd offer some monetary support even in 50-50.

Can anyone perhaps give a hint what is going on here?
A lot of fathers not only disengage and even give up custody, esp. children with disabilities. I'm completely the opposite. If anything she should be happy and relieved, but to no avail.

What is she scared of? That she'd be lesser mother of we shared parenting? That my D would love me more, abandon her? Or something else? She does seem obsessed about her motherhood.

Maybe I can help with my opinion.  Been married to a BPDw of 18 years.  Didn't know it for the first 10 years until the psychologist told me what BPD was and that she has it.  What I've learned is that we will never, ever be able to 'fix' or 'transition' them into what we need.  Our needs, our wants, what our soul needs is not going to be fulfilled by them, at least that's IMO of mine.

I look at my wife who is very intelligent but has the emotional IQ of a teenager.  IMO your wife has you painted black and it takes a very long time for them to get you out of that color.  I asked my wife once, do you see life in black and white?  She looked at me dumbfounded and said 'there is not any other color'.  Not sure about your wife but mine there is no 'gray'.  I can not have a disagreement with her with out her looking at me in black.    There is good and hate, nothing in between.

You have to ask yourself do you want to continue to live your life this way?  One day or one week good, though you can't enjoy it because you are waiting for the next turmoil to start.  What I learned are two main things.. I cannot be her counselor and husband at the same time (ie. trying to fix her or giving her psychological, emotional advice) all that ends up being is me being the emotional punching bag.  She has to fail and I have to step away from yet picking up the pieces once again.  She will blame, curse then try to use her power of persuasion to get me to 'fix' but I have to stand strong.  Second is to not engage.  Don't JADE (please look that up).  When she's on her tangent all I say is 'Im sorry you feel that way, I can understand'.  If she continues and she starts to berate me I then tell her 'I will talk to you when you decide to calm down' and then walk away.  This has to do with boundaries and it's boundaries for you, not her.  It's to save yourself.

Relationships with BPDs are very tiring and not very fulfilling (again IMO with mine).  You continue to walk on eggshells and can really never feel any security with your spouse.  Unless she is diagnosed as a BPD and willing to do specific therapy for that then you really need to concentrate on you.  You also need to be careful that your daughter as she grows up does not start this type of behavior or become emotionally abused by your wife.  It's very easy for the BPD spouse to use the child as a pawn in getting you to do what she wants.

Just remember the only way to win the game is to not play it.  Be there for your daughter and yourself, always putting yourself #1 priority.  You can't help her unless you are ok yourself.

Another member here once commented that pwBPD have the emotional IQ of a child.

And many of us who fell for pwBPD have the emotional IQ of a slightly older child.

 :(

The difference is that we have a straighter path to self-awareness (identity is less amorphous) and from self-awareness the path to change is a bit more well lit.

BPD emotional deficits are so much easier to point at, so much more exasperating, so irrational. From our place on the spectrum of emotional maturity, we are in a better but not great spot. If you are with a BPD partner, the focus is on them, their behavior, their issues, where they get it wrong. How we are better at this than them.

It's a seductive, aggravating and ultimately fruitless place to be if you are seeking change.

The issue is that there is more to the spectrum, to the right or whatever. It gets better the further along the spectrum you go, but it's a hard journey and hurts (like physical pain). Why would a partner change for us if we aren't exactly rushing to explore what that means for us?

My own life was a masterful construction of pain avoidance, the kind that can feel even worse than being in a BPD marriage.

If you are struggling in a marriage with (let's say) mild BPD (still severe), meaning generally cooperative, not dangerous *or* not cooperative, not dangerous (versus not cooperative and dangerous), there are hard questions about what kind of work you're willing to do on you, and whether you have the strength. No one would judge you for feeling tired after 23 years of BPD symptoms.

It won't feel fair to focus on you when her issues are worse. But change won't happen if you focus on her issues. It just won't. This board is evidence enough.

Both my H and I are recovering codependent personalities. We were both married to people with PDs. We both grew up with PDs in our FOOs.

I can't speak to change within a BPD marriage because my BPDx was dangerous and that was a riskier journey with less promising statistics for success. We all have a different threshold and the details do add up.

I can speak to change in a double (recovering) codependent marriage, meaning we both experience arrested emotional issues around vulnerability and intimacy, mostly because of the way we were raised and shamed, then isolated, and ultimately stunted. It's like parts of our emotions were paved over.

We both grew up in households with emotionally immature parents. They provided, they worked, they paid bills, they got us to school on time and took care of shelter. But our homes were emotional hazard sites. Alcohol more or less substituted for skilled handling of strong feelings. 

I eked out 10+ years of therapy and H has had none. He is more emotionally allergic than me, though I recognize in him what was true in me prior to excruciating pain in therapy. This makes me the de facto emotional leader, which means I focus on me and work from there on out. In response, he changes, not all the time but enough.

It is not different with BPD loved ones altho the radical acceptance is tougher. I have a BPD adult stepdaughter whose traits I work to neutralize by applying skills learned here. Radically accepting her limitations has been crucial and from there, focusing on what I could change. This always comes back to whether I find the strength. It is a bitter pill to swallow when there is a truckload of PTSD from a lifetime of pathologic people. Why would anyone sign up for this?

Then really try to answer that. It can be profoundly useful to use BPD aggravations to figure out what is going on with you, and then work from there. See if there is any relief, whether any change happens in your partner when you go there.

I wish I could say it can't hurt, but it does! It's just pain for a reason that can lead to healing if not greater clarity.

When my father and mother separated, I was 3 and I can only tell you what my father went through. I was always closest to him, so he asked to have 50-50 custody. He was seeing a psychologist too at the time, and she pressured him into getting at least 50% custody.

My mother did not mind sharing my brother, but when it came to me, I was hers and hers alone.

He had to threatened that he would go to court, that he would expose her alcoholism. She finally accepted the 50-50. But she did many things to make it very difficult. She would change my school without noticing him for exemple. He had her over and over on so many things to respect MY wishes as a child.

The way I see it: it was payback.

My father loved me and as much as she loved me, it wasn't about me. It was about her own pain. She thought : if he leaves me, he won't ever see our daughter again. Pay back. Plain and simple. For abandoning her. To this day, she still hates the man.

Thankfully, in the end, she had to accept the 50-50 arrangement.

I am grateful to see you are fighting to see your daughter and have custody of her. This is of the utmost importance. Having one safe home on two was a life line for me. I am convinced this is the reason I didn't develop BPD myself.

Thanks a lot guys. A lot of food for thought, so much to process.


I think you are spot on here. You just reminded me how every time she threatened to leave our home she always said "me and OUR D are leaving! She's going with me!" The emphasize on "our D" was very important. And it was always like that. I'm sure somewhere in her mind she's using D to blackmail me, maybe even subconsciously.
So it's quite possible that going 50/50 for her would mean that she's worthless, lesser mother also (50/50 means we are both equal, something she cannot comprehend - she's the mother after all). The sad truth, however, is that this has nothing to do with what's best for D herself, it's all about her ego/self-esteem clashing.
If we do go divorce route, I will for sure check what children psychologists think on this and have their opinion.

@Brooklyn1974 Thanks man, I appreciate your honest input, you shared hard truth in there. Seeing you are still managing your BPD relationship is very important for us who are struggling or ambivalent.

@livednlearned
Thanks for some words of wisdom. I'm also healing from my codependency. It's much better than year ago, but still long way ahead for me. Making even better boundaries for myself is so important. I was not only codep, but also think I spoiled my W very much with my enabling or catching her before a fall. Now it somehow turned back on me, as she got confidence that she can do whatever she pleases and still get away with it. And now that I set some boundaries, with me not being there catch her all the time, she's frustrated and think I don't care/abandoning her. However, I'm not sure if there's a way to go back from that while us still remaining together.

On the other thread, ( the one about your D) I wrote about natural consequences. When we enable people, we take away their learning from them ( safe ones, we don't want them to injure themselves or others). If we look at enabling in this way, it doesn't sound so noble. Enabling is a way of managing our own feelings- we don't want to disappoint someone, enabling seems to make us feel like we are the good guy here but if we are taking away someone's learning from their behavior, that isn't in their best interest.

When we start acting on our boundaries, and decrease the enabling, it's unsettling for both people. Enabling was a way of managing feelings for both of you. You've changed the pattern and this is unsettling. That doesn't mean you have go back to it. You can choose that if you wish. If you go back to the same pattern, you will get the same dynamics. If you change your behavior- you might get a different dynamic- possibly the one you want, but it may not feel comfortable during the change as it's not your usual, familiar one. (even if you don't want the familiar one)

I observed this with my parents. BPD mother rarely, if ever,  experienced consequences for her behavior in our family. Dad enabled it, and we were expected to do this as well. It's understandable then, that she assumed her behaviors were acceptable in our family because they were. She could be verbally and emotionally abusive to us, and we'd still be there and comply with her. This worked for her. She has no motivation to change.

It was much later for me that I decided I didn't want to tolerate this and the result was anger and frustration on her part. I was uncomfortable with this too. I didn't want to be the "bad guy" to her, but by not having boundaries, I was allowing her to treat me poorly.

Once we do this, it's then on the other person to decide how they will respond. The first response is to escalate to bring the same comfortable patterns back, after all, it worked for them before. If someone only has a hammer as a tool, they will hammer everything.
If your wife values your relationship and is motivated to try to work with a counselor, she can do that. The two of you might learn new skills.

Or not, she might discard the relationship. It's a risk. However, you know that going back to the same patterns brings the same results. It's your choice to try something different.

I think that is the main, if not only, rule I need to remember in order to survive.
DONT PLAY IT.
The second he starts a "downhill" trend on the roller coaster, I have to remember not to join his game.
Not to respond to his "when can you talk," "you never talk to me," "of course we have problems if we never talk" that all lead to endless days and sleepless nights of fruitless conversation. (That is the BEST case scenario. In other cases, it leads to rage and chaos ... abuse, locking me out, locking me in, yelling, locking the kids ... )
But if I don't PLAY the game, how do I disengage?
My T and my daughter's T have both said I need to send him "out" to calm down when he begins to rage. But how do I sidestep all his begging for explanations that lead nowhere and worse?

I never thought I'd be there, but I feel very lonely and sad, with a hole in my stomach now that they have been gone for 1 month.

In my mind it's a state of confusion. Cognitively, I know what she did and how she made this separation hard and almost impossible to be worked on. But then again, since we, as a couple, don't have any real issues (affairs, drugs, alcohol, gambling, money, housing, school problems etc.), in my mind the solution is at the tip of our fingertips. My mind still cannot comprehend that someone would rather go away and make his/her life upside down than start working on the communication and acceptance.

She's literally pulling back every time I offer some resolution, whether that is more counseling, texting uplifting and funny content, offering to hike to heal our minds or to lunch together. She uses excuses or silence every time I offer something, never saying no directly, but doing nothing about it, except occasional "I'm grateful you offered that". Meanwhile, I accepted all good things that came from her end.

She says we are over, but postpones the lawyer appointments every time. Then blames me how I'm dissolving our family and how she never imagined she'd be like this after 23y of being together. Insisting how life is very hard for her now, while I'm having a time of my life in my own apt. (in reality, she's traveling to Barcelona for 4 day vacation while I'm staying home).

Her delusions on this and complete cognitive dissonance make me very sad and anxious. If I'd put this in one sentence it's like she'd like for us to be together by making it harder than ever to be together. I am not even sure what exactly does she want?

I doubt if she knows what exactly she wants. PwBPD are reactive, and she is reacting to how she is feeling in the moment. It’s not like she has a well thought out plan.

Perhaps she’s feeling that you are pursuing her with your *offers* and she feels uncomfortable, but is unwilling to look within to understand why she feels that way.

A month may seem like an eternity to you, but it is not much time to change longstanding patterns. I’m sorry you are feeling sad and lonely. Want to talk more about that?

This resonated with me a lot.

Do you think some of your messaging sounds to her like "do this or else." In other words, an ultimatum?

And if so, is there in fact an ultimatum?

It is not BPD sufferers alone who respond negatively to ultimatums. I wonder if she is afraid: "He is being nice, he also said I had to agree to conditions x, y and z. I'm scared of those things and feel confused so I have to keep away. We are stuck."

I have learned that on these boards and helped me immensely. As deeply logical person, I have struggled with this for years. One of my biggest mistakes was when I thought we have reached an agreement, all seemed well explained and I have moved on to other stuff. But it never lasted long, as soon as some "glitch" or bad emotion stood out. Literally nothing was changed, but emotions did, so the plan(s) fell.


Thank you.
Well, at first I was relieved I was out of drama, demands, and those overcooked emotions. Home was quiet but peaceful. I started taking care of myself, boundaries and well-being. Also of our apartment. We always shared house duties in the past. Ever since she got a job (and we are all working from home) she stopped doing any house work except laundry and wardrobe. Home was a mess, windows were dirty with tons of dust on the shelves, things scattered everywhere. I already mentioned in this thread a bike she borrowed from my friend and failed to clean and return for one full year.

She's a creative type that used to craft a lot in the past and made our home cozy and inspiring. I always loved that side of her. Well, she stopped doing that too.
So I started thinking, is she actually incapable of doing that now? Does high-functioning BPD mean she can perform at her job well, at the expense of everything else? It does seem so.

As days went by, home was getting cleaner and spotless, but felt more and more empty. While I still don't want drama in my life, I can get everything done using just a fraction of my energy, compared to late times when I was solely doing the work for all, I miss the side when there was 3 of us. When there was unity, talking and laughter in our home. I play music, but it's otherwise dead silent.
Even though I'm an introvert, solitude is not an issue for me, but this seems a bit too much, too soon. I also found many co-dep traits in myself, amplifying this even more.

So when you put everything in perspective, I'm only 42, but I currently feel old and in limbo, waiting for something. Will we be together or drift apart in divorce? If you asked me why is she still being at her parents and what is she waiting for? I'd leave you without answer - I'd love to know that myself. 'I hate you don't leave me' phrase is still in its full glory. I can still hear two contradictory statements enmeshed together at the same time.

Not at all. Most of my messages seem easy going and super friendly. As an introvert I am much better with texting, as I can think and edit my words better. I'm using SET tool wherever I need to get something done. Actually, it can get very hard as I tend to get utterly selfish messages from the other side, while I cautiously choose every word to be on point, supportive and empathetic. That drains me as well.


I hear you. I did offer some conditions for her to return before, when we spoke on the phone (no texting), just to not lose my sanity with her "you're to blame and I'll be back to make more drama". But people here advised me not to.
Instead, I should work on my core boundaries, make adjustments where I can and accept the outcome as-is. So I did and stopped "conditioning" anything or using that kind of language.

But I didn't see it helped. Here's how my "offer" looks like: Hey, I understand you and I are both going through a lot and are drained. What do you say for us to recharge, go there for a day or two, see the nature, some historic medieval and Roman sites and clear our heads?

That's how I write. So far she didn't accept any. In the mean time, she offered to go on the beach with friends once. And I accepted, even though I had other plans that I cancelled. But it was important for us and I hoped it would mean something. Most of her writing is just few words, to show that she's hurt. Or wall of text explaining how "if we could we would, I don't appreciate her, nor care" etc.

There's nothing in her writings that suggest anything to be worked on. Any meaningful, practical change. It's always "we are done, but do you love me? Don't you dare quit your family, you ruthless man, but we are over!" That type of thing.

I think it's hard to know what she wants.

One model that helped me understand my BPD mother's perspective is the Karpman triangle. She sees things from victim perspective. So, it seems the only roles that others fit in relation to her are persecutor or rescuer. If one isn't rescuer, then they must be persecutor, hurting her for some reason ( in her thinking ).

When someone is in victim perspective-they feel wronged and hurt, and so seem unaware of any hurt feelings to anyone else. If you come to her to explain that your feelings are hurt, she gets angry and even verbally cruel. The way I have understood this for myself is that - if she's in victim position, and you come to her with any kind of emotional need, this seems unfair to her.

Why would victim role be the preferred one? One possible explanation is that victim role absolves one of any accountability. You don't blame a victim. It's not their fault. I think this is the main secondary gain for this role. I think that emotionally, BPD mother feels she is being attacked, and if someone were attacking you, you'd fight back. So she sees her actions and words as justified.

How she happened to be this way, I don't know. I have wondered if she was abused as a child and might be replaying some kind of trauma but I have no proof or idea who may have done this if it were true. Her extended family members seem narcissistic to me, but they seem more functional than she is.

It does feel crazy making to be cast as the persecutor in her own mind, but I don't see any way to change this because, it's how she sees things. The only acceptable response to her is to simply obey her requests and stay quiet. Don't question her. Don't have expectations of her. I can manage this during short visits. I don't live with her. I think it would be difficult to do this long term.

Although there may not be the big serious issues in a marriage- cheating, abuse, addiction, a disorder in perception makes every day interactions feel crazy. Perhaps understanding a victim perspective will make communications clearer to you. It's helped me to not take the responses as personally and so be less reactive to her. However, with any emotional relationship, it's hard to be completely detached.

Karpman triangle, good strategy. For years I felt my wife struggled with herself of wanting to be the greatest victim and greatest fighter. Brave women were always her role model that she admired, but lacked any introspection or insight to see that there was a huge gap in her thinking and actually becoming one.

Because her actions were always painted as -> VICTIM <- in its full glory, but acted out or wanting to be perceived as FIGHTER. Now, I don't want to say that she didn't endure a lot in pregnancy and afterwards, she was a fighter in many cases. But overall, up to this day, she could never shed that Victim skin off. Living with her parents now and being very close to them she is going backwards. They are the last people to get any life lessons from. Emotionally, they are at pre-teen level.

She developed disorder probably after neglect in childhood, maybe even abuse, as her father was alcoholic and her brother full of uncontrolled rage when they were younger. Their mother had many narcissistic traits as well without any self-esteem. Although they changed for the better over the years and are very kind grandparents to our D, emotionally there are on similar level.

Sadly, she's closest with them than ever before. There was a time when she fought with me over something that was her mother's responsibility. Yes, she'd rather go against me than be assertive to her, even as a grownup woman.
The older she becomes, the more I see MiL in her. Distress behaviour, facial expressions are almost exactly the same.

For years she expected me to be the Rescuer and she'd tilt between Victim & Prosecutor mode. She hated being the Rescuer for me.
Last time I injured myself after falling from el. scooter, she just wasn't there. She mocked me as I tended my wounds several times a day. One time she offered to attach a bandage for me and after it didn't stay in place, she lost temper and just left, no second attempts. In her eyes, I was annoying her as I required attention (though I tended everything myself), shifting the imaginary Victim spotlight from her.

Even on times when she was rude and violent, there I was apologizing for my own behavior and begging her to return. But ever since FOG cleared, I couldn't be the same rescuer anymore. Nor want to be in that role.


Understood, thank you for your insight on how you managed your mother.
Sad but so true. That's how last couple of years felt being with my W. Even sadder that this seems to be it - this person cannot and won't change. It pains me to say, but I cannot be emotionally connected and honest anymore with someone that is disordered. I paid that invoice so many times. I overshared, always being completely honest with her. It backfired more than hundred of times. Some of my deepest struggles and thoughts that I shared were used later on to create drama and new distorted realities.
If I would to continue living with W, I'd have to develop and make all kinds of substitutes. To the point of asking - why do this?

However, with any emotional relationship, it's hard to be completely detached.

 :hug:

However, with any emotional relationship, it's hard to be completely detached.

There's a kind of grief that goes along with caring for someone and wishing the relationship was different. But somewhere, we need to extend some of that caring to ourselves and ask how much to ignore/endure for the sake of it. There is no one way answer and all involve some difficulty.

MM, I'm wondering if your wife might respond different if she saw you as the *original* MM, if that makes sense.

Were you different with her when you two met?

When I meet with her I try to show the best of me. Meaning, I'm trying to be positive, cheerful, easy going. Show that I care. But not over the top or something I'm not. In a way, we should 'attract' each other when we meet - if we still have something in us for us, right?

But that's only on my end.

She, on the other hand, is worse in real life than during texting. Texting can hide a lot of emotions and emoticons can soothe something that is not present. When she meets me, she seems hurt, distant, annoyed and sarcastic - depending on the mood.

I even think that I am the trigger myself.

When in good mood she is okay-ish, but far from warm. If I say one wrong word that annoys her, she loses temper, starts talking louder or goes into denial mode like - I don't care what you think or what you do, I'm here for my daughter. The less you know about me the better - that sort of talk.
Then I go slowly to calm the storm, with occasional hugs. That helps, but only so temporary.

I think Marsha Linehan said that BPD is like having 3rd degree burns as your normal skin. And that's exactly what's it like.

I meant, when you initially met. How you were when you two first started dating.

It took me a while to realize that my ex had this belief I should be the way I was when we met. He wanted the non-injured LnL.

I'm certain if I was like that, we would've rekindled and gotten back together.

That turned out to be similar advice given on the Bettering board for partners who had been left by a pwBPD. To go back to being the confident, awesome person they were when they first started the relationship.

I don't know if it's possible in your situation, it's just an observation that some people (not just BPD) respond to magic wand land. For nonBPD people, it might take years but it seems that some pwBPD can get there more quickly.

You seem willing to want to repair things -- knowing that things may not change.

Curious to hear your thoughts.

Oh, we met 23 years ago, so that's hardly possible now.  lol  But I get your point. I tried the best I could to be confident and kind.

You mentioned your ex. Well I wish W could return when we talked more nicely and she did have some responsibility on her behaviour and could apologize - that was around 3, 4 years ago. That's the point where it all went downhill for us.


I finally had a T session alone with a new therapist, as those of mine are still on vacation. He seemed very straightforward, frank and experienced. I explained to him the situation I'm in and he said the following:

• Our marriage is loaded with toxicity and is very hard to fix. Possible but hard. Therapy would last approx. 1-2 years with weekly to bi-monthly seeing.
• Current separation is healthy as it stopped drama and escalation. A healthy ground to work further.
• Was surprised that she never had any mood stabilizers in her meds before. I told him that nobody knew about mood swings except me.
• I'm the one that keeps the relationship going and the sole Rescuer, keeping the engine on.
• My boundaries are low and weak and my W is breaking them all the time, expecting to be rescued and cared for. Her theatrics and plays also come out of poor boundaries.
• W is stunted emotionally - he didn't want to mention BPD when I asked him, but said I'm "quite well educated on this"
• I should work on myself and stop thinking about her needs.
• She will do what she does and I cannot change that at all by myself.
• I have separation/abandoning issues as well - we didn't talk about my co-dep traits, I forgot to mention to him, but he sensed it. Told W and I are like a closed clamshell when together.
• Advised me DBT for myself to deal with current situation and will send me the lessons.

But most importantly, he said it's all about me now - I'm the one that is a caretaker here. I should contemplate what do I want from this marriage. It's all in my hands, whether to keep dealing with this or stop it entirely. Whatever I choose, it will require work and effort.

Oh well. At least I was happy that help and suggestions I got from you guys here were pretty much inline and in-sync with my new T counseling.  :hug:

To share some updates:

- I'm doing DBT myself and feel much better, I like the approach of being semi-yoga (mindfulness, visualization, radical acceptance...), semi-psychology. Regarding what's better - my anger regulation, dealing with hopelessness, loneliness and unfairness. I stopped judging or making assumptions about people, esp. those that are irrelevant in my life. This all is still not quite from what I'd like but, for example, my anger starts and stops much faster, or sometimes doesn't start at all. I'm more calm, happy and mindful in my daily life.

- Even though it's much better than before, my W can still trigger my response when she does something out of the blue, manipulative, self-centered or just mean. It's a non issue if I can think in advance and just be ready for it. I'm in-line with myself completely when she does something irrational without drama, if there's a glitch of hope that she can be reasoned with. I handle those situations easily now.

- Some of her traits lately were narcissistic and T pointed out to me one time. For example, she will be very kind if I clap and praise about everything she does. Or if I show that I completely understand her in a compassionate way and hugging. But if that obvious show-me-I-am-good disappears, or if I show boundaries regarding my time, she's completely the opposite - manipulative, self-centered, returns to her past behaviours and want to punish me in some way. But if she needs a favour of some kind, all that sweetness comes back.

- Regarding us as a family, I feel worse. There was a brief crack of light that seemed better, uplifting and even promising that something could be built even with her disorder. I was focusing on me only and thought I finally hit a jackpot - I will fix myself for myself and it's the only person I can deal with to be better. I made boundaries, to be more in-sync with me, having more compassion for others and her as a result. We've gone hiking together with our D and had some fun on the river ourselves. She was way more kind, compassionate and honest. In fact for the first time in months I could open up a bit and not feel bad about sharing my thoughts, hopes and struggles. She did the same.
But, as always, that didn't last long. Now it's even worse than before. She wrote a wall of text regarding myself, being accused as a manipulator that magically changes shape and form from being a good guy to bad. Never in the slightest questioning herself in the process. All of this after I showed my boundary. I didn't raise my voice or anything, in fact, after the storm passed I showed that I care and want to move back to a healthy ground again. But she even secretly hid her privacy settings in a texting app so I couldn't see when she was there last time.

At this stage my hopes are all-time low. I will continue healing and fixing myself, that's not even a question, but I wonder about our relationship. It feels like building a house of cards on a breeze. You know, a tiny flow of air is enough to shatter everything back to the ground. And every time I pick those flat cards again, it's harder to find motivation to start again, questioning - is there any point doing this? Those brief feel-good moments look honest, genuine and promising, but I wonder are they a friend or a foe?

The more you work on yourself, the weirder the relationship drama will feel. You create a new sense of normal, so the dysfunctional normal that developed between the two of you will feel more and more insane as time passes. Someone in a podcast explained this very well. The disordered individual returns to baseline after every dramatic episode. The non-disordered doesn't - every dramatic episode is added to the pile and the tolerance levels drops every time. At some point you don't need much before you react - it's like the quote "the straw that broke the camel's back".

In the worst case, it's not possible to be both healthy and in a relationship with her. We are not emotional robots. Sometimes when I'm successful at handling a situation with my wife, I get the sense that I'm some kind of emotional superhero. Later I get to realize I'm really not! :)

That podcast is indeed on point, though my W gets lower tolerance levels as well. You'd think that having a job that W likes, where she excels at, combined with more sense of freedom and purpose, that she would feel calmer and more satisfied? Wrong!

The more responsibility she has, the more frustrated she feels and LESS normal she is.
I seriously hoped that something positive would happen, a tiny bulb would be lit above her head, but no. A simple misunderstanding was enough to pull everything we have sort of patched over the last couple of weeks, back to the mud.

She's so wrongly wired, I can now see that from afar. Stuff that should make her move, uplifted and encouraged actually make her more frustrated. Stuff that she should be proud and relieved make her jealous, envious. All positive vibes the life gives she interprets as obligations and worries. Or just fails to receive the goodness of the moment.
She is stuck and running in circles, wasting so much energy.


That's so true. What is making me sad and even frustrated, when I think that we, as a family, don't-have-any-major-problem currently in life at all! We had in the past, but not now. We could be living on a cruise auto-pilot mode. Enjoyable simple living. I already said this - no debt, no mortgages, no money or school issues. All current real life problems are fixable, there's a workaround for everything. We could be living far better together, with double earnings, less expenses and far more calmness. Except that she is a uBPD sufferer and makes this all next to impossible, with lives full of drama and anxiety.

Today was a mess. :) Writing this more as a journal.

W was raging mad, cursing, spitting at me (theatrically), calling me names, cursing my FOO, yelling, you name it. Drama in its full glory. Then said I never loved her, I'm abandoning our family, didn't care and abused her emotionally.
My skin thickened with my DBT training, so I didn't take anything personally, nor felt threatened.

It all started because we talked about divorce and after throwing so much verbal junk at me, I said to myself 'I'm so glad I don't have to hear this at home'. She heard that and said "I thought the same this Saturday" then went on in full rage how I dared to say that. It was so bizarre.

W said I will see how hollow my home will be when she's finally gone with her stuff. How I don't even understand what I lost. And I won't hear her ever ever ever again.

Then after a while, after that verbal junk hit the expiry date, she started saying how I will be relieved that this piece of trash will be out of my life - in her own words.

Honestly, I felt sad for her. She probably sees herself as a piece of trash. Witty, smart, creative and attractive girl, forever emotionally disabled. And no adequate therapy to even start addressing this.

I'm 100% sure she's a BPD sufferer, formally diagnosed or not. Her emotional skills are beyond poor, is unable to connect how her chaos is causing anything and still talks about herself. And I get it, she feels awful, hurt and afraid. But I'm not able to fix it.
She finished with "I'm so sorry. You should have cared for me more".