BPDFamily.com

Where to start. My wife is my best friend. I only found out about 7 months ago about BPD and my wife seems to have it.

She is the most incredible woman, wife and mother, so loving, kind, compassionate and I've watched her for 20+ years struggle with self esteem, insecurities, trauma from childhood and me, feelings of hopelessness and self worth. She's going through early menopause at 38. She's been on antidepressants for 10+ years now and recently started on Testosterone pellets to help her and she also thinks she has Pmdd. Which once she told me I read through and it does seem like she is struggling with it.

She is incredibly creative and artistic. She is very overwhelmed with a lot on her plate now just taking over a new bakery business adding to her other business her and my sister in law started. My wife is the creative one, sis in law is the biz oriented one.

My wife asked for a divorce on Wed last week. She doesn't feel like she's enough and said she can't give me what I need and wants me to be happy and she wants to be happy and isn't right now and needs to focus on her which I support. This has been an up and down battle the last 3 years when it all came to a head.

She seems to be in a lot of pain right now and my heart is breaking for her.

We're on good speaking terms, still friends, she's still saying she loves me, and we both want to do the divorce right for us and our kids. 3 girls Ages 17, 15 and 10. Our oldest is our son who's 18 and out of the house.

20 years of marriage. We got married 15 days before her 18th birthday and I was 19 so we've been through a lot.

I'm still committed to her and let her know I respect her decision and will help with the transition in the best way I can. And if this is what she desires and needs to heal I will help however she would like me to.

This last cycle has been happening frequently the last 6 months with constant commitment and recommitment and this time it seemed it was just to much for her. As little as 3 weeks ago we separated for a week then she wanted me back. Vowing to work on herself and not do this again.

We had a major event that sparked therapy almost 3 years ago this month. She was having an emotional affair with her "boss" at work which was the first job she had since married, thank heavens it was all in her head and the other guy had No idea. But we worked through it and have had the best 2 1/2 years since we worked through things and made a new commitment in Aug 2019.

Things started changing for the worst 6 months ago. My brother and sister in law moved in with us while we worked on getting some family property ready for us all and it became very stressful for my wife. We are fairly religous and during their stay with us my sister in law left our church and my wife also left with her after already struggling with religion for the last few years and seemed she felt empowered by my sis in law leaving. There is of course more to that story.

While of course the decision was hard for me to cope with I told her I was still committed to her 100% since we are both following God, our Savior, and committed to one another and our family. And if we strive to follow Jesus I know we'll be ok. That's all I can hope for and be an example to her and show her unconditional love.

Throughout all our therapy sessions I unfortunately have been the one to schedule everything and while she was committed to going it just seemed to overwhelm her to try and take initiative to schedule her own therapy. Though this time she did ask me to find a female therapist and make the appt since she was overwhelmed with taking over the bakery.

7 months ago our last therapist talked to us about our 15 year old daughter exhibiting BPD traits because she was struggling with that and we knew something was going on, which then led me down the research path of understanding my wife was struggling with what seems to be the same. I asked him if he thought my wife had BPD and he told me she did after several more months of him speaking with us both. Light bulbs went off for me as I started reading about and understanding BPD in relationships. Literally the last 20 years came into clarity for me! This roller coaster started to make some sense.

He didn't tell her yet because she wasnt in a good headspace and was very inconsistent with committing to therapy and he wanted to make sure she was committed first. I eventually talked to my wife about it after she was triggered by our therapist one day and didn't want to go back. So I didn't think I had much to lose by talking to her about it, she was extremely angry at me and him for "diagnosing" her behind her back.

She didn't want to see him after our last session when he was being a bit more intense with our therapy after he asked us if it was ok to finally start moving more intensely forward to work through things. She was triggered by something he asked her and she was done. I don't think she has wanted to listen or try to understand more about BPD either and if she may be dealing with those traits.

She has never approached me on wanting to discuss why he came to the conclusion he or I did. I bought the "Stop Walking on Eggshells" workbook which really helped me understand things better. She feels attacked and now labeled and broken which I can appreciate why she would feel this way.

I'm doing the workbook for people who have loved ones with BPD which is proving helpful but I know all I can do is focus on me, being the best I can for me and her, and learning how to best work with her, and I hope she finds the healing she needs with all this.

I definitely have my own issues and challenges! I'm an entrepreneur and always been very high functioning ADD, and recently started Adderall for it which is proving a bit helpful but I'm still figuring out dosing levels. I am a very decisive individual, very secure in myself, never afraid to do my own thing and follow my instincts, and can come across to her as bulldozing and domineering which I've recognized more through therapy and self reflection too. I caused serious trauma to her  about 10 years into our marriage dealing with pornography off and on that 10+ years later she still holds deep hurt from. I quit 10+ years ago but didn't give her the healing she needed then and has resented me since. I definitely botched that bad. Along with her holding deep resentment and hurt for so many things that built up in our marriage for her.

I have been working diligently the last 3 years with her and in therapy. She recently told me after wanting a divorce a week ago I emotionally manipulate her which from what I've read about it doesn't seem to be the case. But I definitely want to understand if I truly do that at all! I love self improvement and constructive criticism so much my best guy friend says he's never known anyone to eat it up like I do. I always thought it was normal

Sorry you're going through this.  I've only been in my relationship with my uBPD spouse half as long as your relationship but I can relate to many of the things you're going through.  What do you want to happen in this situation?  Obviously divorce would be hard but you didn't specifically mention trying to stop it at this point in the relationship.  What do you think is best for you?

Yes I forgot to mention that mitten thank you.

I truly love and care for her so much but I do need to protect my heart, my emotions, my children, and take her at her actions. For now if she wants to stay together I would continue learning how to best manage in this relationship but truly deep down I find it difficult to continue if she doesn't want to pursue her own help and healing. I've failed all attempts at helping there.

Overall it's such a conflict of emotions it's so hard.

So sorry to read what you are going through MontanaDude. I understand how things must have been more unstable since your wife's early menopause. My mother was like that too, Her whole life she exhibited BPD traits, we as family just didn't know what it was and how to deal with it. Just had a very tumultuous childhood. Until she hit her menopause and the hormonal instability made her even worse. That's also when she left and divorced my father. The difference is my mother never had any kind of awareness that I know of. And never considered therapy, since there is "nothing wrong" with her.

I understand how you don't wish to divorce your best friend and your loving wife. Was your wife in a dysregulated state each time she said she wants divorce? What do you think of the option <therapeutic separation>? Like to separate and not to date other people, the goal is to improve the marriage in the end by working on self separately?

So many huge pressures on your wife in recent times:
*early menopause
*sharing the house with extended family
*daughter’s BPD dx
*new business
*her own BPD dx
* separating from the church

That she mentioned divorce could very well be her way of trying to alleviate some of this stress, not by looking within (which is very difficult for people with BPD), but by blaming you (also a very typical pattern for PwBPD).

Keep reading here and you’ll find countless stories where a partner wants a divorce, then forgets about ever saying that some time later. Or frequently asks for a divorce, but never follows through.

If you don’t want a divorce, then let her take the steps to make it happen, don’t you enable it by helping her move forward.

Yeah... She's more or less been dealing with things forever and the early menopause definitely seemed to push her over the edge. The real sad thing is she's never taken initiative to schedule her own therapy appt, only if I scheduled it would she go. And recently forgot about the Other one I scheduled for her trying to help because she was overwhelmed before she said she wants the divorce.

Also she never got a true "BPD" diagnosis other than our therapist telling me she has it. Which I suspected once I started reading about it.

In a way I've enabled things too because I would try to hold her accountable but she would spiral and I wouldn't be able to move forward in a constructive conversation.

And I think part of the challenge has been the way I communicate as well. ADD / Over explain. Use my phone for notes. She hates it. Yet when I say, "just like you need time to process and sort through things I need to process important things beforehand and write them down." then she feels it disengenious when I share from what I write. And we go around in circles.

Balls in her court right now and I have to be patient and show unconditional love and hope she seeks healing. And whether we stay together or not right now is up to her. I really don't know how long I will go on in limbo but right now I'm sitting tight. She'll be moving out soon to stay in my brother and sis in laws camper. By herself without the support of our entire family there. I have a feeling she's gonna spiral quickly once that happens because she will be very lonely. Hopefully it will help her realize what she has here, and how we all love her. She said she needs to focus on her and I said I can support you in that right now. But honestly I don't know. Maybe she'll also just prefer being alone in her own thoughts and world. All I know is I'm the problem to her, she wants to be happy and she's not here and it breaks my heart to watch her struggle.

Living alone in a camper won’t be the picnic she believes it to be.

Hold tight and see how this unfolds.

Perhaps she needs some time alone to see how supportive you’ve been for her.

So true.  She is probably testing you to see if you'll beg her not to move out.  I think you're doing the right thing by letting her sit with her emotions. 

Yes you both are right. Not being in our house with our three children and my support will probably hit her hard. But... I dont want her in this marriage because it's easier than being alone, only because she wants it. I love her so incredibly much and she definitely knows it.

I've done zero begging in all this or asked her to stay, and in fact validated her need for a divorce and told her I can respect her decision if that's what she feels she needs to do. And I will help her however she needs it, including moving out once she made the decision. I've given her the bed while I stay in our camper at home even though she said she would stay in it. While letting go has been hard it has been a relief at the same time. Constant tiptoing is exhausting.

It already seems her heart is softening. I haven't given her anything to push against so it seems she's not pushing. I've been helping relieve her around the house and taking some burdens off her because I know she's been so stressed.

She says she misses me and loves me. Love was never the issue. She seemed to just be spiraling. As she said her heart gave up.

I'm doing the Stop Walking on Eggshells workbook and also listening to Loving Someone with Borderline Personality.

For anyone who's dealt with this what is the best thing to do when your BPD partner is spiraling like this and has threatened divorce? And if she does decide to stay and not go to treatment I guess the best thing I can do is learn how to manage and navigate her emotions. I need to learn how to not trigger her or at least know when not to engage. I'm learning more and I truly want her to get the help she so needs so she can feel better.

One of the hardest things is you feel you are being so rational and talking then they just flip a switch. And truly she has been dealing with so much on her plate I know shes overwhelmed which compounds everything.

Definitely recommend that you let her work through this and don't agree or take action on things you don't want to do.

Here is the thing...if she wants a divorce, she doesn't need to involve you to get one, and if she talks you into divorce..then she can more easily blame you..and let herself off the hook for her feelings...especially feelings from her actions.

There is a lot on her plate...I mean it left me wondering what major life area for her is NOT under massive stress.
 
Big picture:  How would your conversations change if you looked at her as a person to be loved and listened to...instead of a problem or set of problems to be solved.  (Note...not saying you are this way...but cautioning you that it's easy to focus on solving a MASSIVE list like that...)

I'm glad you are here...we can walk alongside you in this.

Best,

FF

Daer Montanadude, it is such  hard position to be in! With the menopause definitely some red clover tea and chasteberry at night. Sorted my menopausal rages right out.
 :hug:

Thanks for the info and support! She's trying not to involve me but she's asking my thoughts on what's next? I asked her what do you want to do? And she says "Well it's not all about me." But I said, this choice is yours so let me know what you would like to do. And I can tell she doesn't really know. I've always made so many decisions because she is indecisive so I'm just allowing her to own this. I can see she's unsure but that is good.

Aside from the kids I'm pushing her choice to her. I'm not gonna give her ideas as I have in the past.

We're gonna have a chat tonight and I'm gonna ask her if she is still feeling the same way.

I really will take a step back and listen to her as a person to be loved. I'm such a problem solver so yes inherently I've always tried to "help". But yes I need to listen more without offering solutions. Especially now.

Thanks so much!

Probably better to announce in a matter of fact way that you don't want to divorce and then acknowledge that if she decides to get one, you understand the divorce will happen.

It could be misinterpreted that by allowing her to make "this" choice...she might assume you are giving YOUR choice to her...

She decides her vote on marriage.

You decide yours.

Takes two yes votes to continue.

Best,

FF

Oh I have told her I do not want a divorce. She absolutely knows that.

What do you mean by acknowledge that if she decides to get one I understand the divorce will happen? I thought I did or was it not direct?

I said "I am sorry you want a divorce, I do not but I respect you and will respect your decision. I want to remain friends and will help however I can." Maybe she thinks I'll file. And really I don't want her to have to figure it out all on her own but maybe I should? Keep living my life and working on me while she moves onto our property to live in my bro and Sis in Laws camper for an undetermined amount of time, and it's about to be snowy winter.

I've made it crystal clear I don't want a divorce.

I haven't asked her if she's willing to try this differently now. We've been to therapy and it helped but she got mad our last therapist pushed her and she didn't want to go back to him. She wants a female which she was supposed to schedule, got overwhelmed and I offered to schedule one. Which I did, and she forgot and didn't go. I ended up going to see the lady on my own.

To me its irrational because if she really cared about our marriage in would think she would put in the effort to go to therapy. She's never really went on her own.

I'm going to talk with her tomorrow and am thinking about asking this,

"I was just wondering about the last couple of weeks. Are you still feeling the same about the two of us and your decision?"

I want to also ask her if she really feels like we've done everything we could to save our marriage. Not a week before she was promising how she would never separate again and would do whatever it takes together because she wanted to be together.

She says she loves me and has always wanted to make this work so can we do something drastically different and a different approach? I want to frame it in a way that makes sense for her.

Mainly as I'm reading through the Stop Walking on eggshells workbook and the Audio book Living with someone who has BPD I'm learning the techniques I need to implement moving forward. So it's not about putting it all on her, it's about us both trying a drastically different approach. And right now I'm the one who can regulate emotions and respond to her appropriately. I'm just not ready to throw in the towel unless she really is. I can't control her of course so I can only work on myself.

Thanks for your help everyone. It's incredibly mentally exhausting and we've been at this more or less for 20 years. I know we're both exhausted and she just isn't happy because she never feels she will be enough for me. "She gives and inch and I want a mile she says" It breaks my heart cause I don't see that at all. Legitimately I even ask her and her reasons make no sense. Asking to review some ways to connect more and better together is me asking to much for her

When I talk to her I wanted to possibly figure out a way to say the below in quotes. And it's so damn hard because whenever I talk about things she says "for the last 20 years I've given you everything even at my own expense and I need to focus on my happiness"

And I tell her I to want her to focus on Herself and her happiness, she cannot make me happy I can only choose to be happy. And the same goes for her. But of course I'm trying to use logic which doesn't work when she is emotionally charged. She can't seem to understand that her happiness isn't predicated on me. Now. If she's not happy in the relationship for whatever reason, I can appreciate that. But she seems to focus on giving everything to me and our family at her expense. Which is terrible and I definitely do not want nor expect her to to do this.

I mean we both have busted our asses and given to our family in different ways but she can't seem to logically understand this? She never says I have busted my ass so hard for 20 years and always provided for her and our 4 kids. Always making sure we have evrything we need. Should I ever say this? I never have because I'm afraid she'll be so hurt by it and feel like a bad wife.like she's said before. I don't think the logic of that will resonate with her. And I don't hold it against her in any way shape or form shes never told me this.

I want to say something to this effect.

"Look I know my behavior has come across as trying to fix you, I can appreciate your viewpoint on that and I take full responsibility for it. I want you to know my intentions and I know many of my failures in this.

I haven't understood how to best react or handle a lot of situations due to my own lack of skills and awareness with effectively communicating. I fully know I can only control myself and I really have no intention of fixing you. If we see someone in pain we want to help right? This is how I have approached Much in our marriage as you explained to me your pains and hurts you've dealt with since we have been married. Can you appreciate that viewpoint babe? I mean we all want to help someone when we see them in pain.

And not only this but I have caused yiu hurts and pains you are trying to sort through on how to forgive and yes I get frustrated when you bring up the same things to me over and over and I don't really know how to handle that but I really want to learn and help in any way I can so you can heal. But I'm not a professional and I don't really know.

I have needs I've tried to express in the best way I know how. And I've never meant to overwhelm you by telling you them. I can appreciate the feeling of being overwhelmed and it is difficult to make good decisions when I'm Overwhelmed.

And I truly want help from someone who can help us both better navigate the struggles we are having with communicating hurts, pains and needs within our relationship, and to build upon all the good which I believe far outweigh any negative. And I'm willing to put in that work with a new therapist as you have asked for a new one, as well continue to work on my own in therapy and through discussions with you. You truly do help me want to be a better man, husband, and father and I appreciate you for this. There is nothing for me that has happened which I'm unwilling to work on together."

Also I struggle keeping my thoughts short and sweet when we talk. I like to write things down so I can stay focused and on track. She can't seem to appreciate this and thinks it disengenious. Yet it's how I process my thoughts. I'm Add and am fully aware I can ramble and go in circles, hence my post here haha.

We've had to resort to writing letters and I'm wondering if I just need to write this all down and give it to her to read while we are sitting together so she can talk to me then. I realize I've had to write letters because our conversations always seem to go in circles until we were both exhausted and fed up. Neither of us feeling heard or validated. I know I can and will do better because I do not struggle BP traits. So I have to be the bigger person here and do what I can.

Thank you all so much for your insights. You truly begin to wonder and think you are crazy sometimes living with someone who has BPD. And I only found out what it was 6 months ago.

I'm so hypersensitive to this right now if this divorce goes through I dont know if I could ever marry someone again without going to therapy in the beginning and making sure they don't have BPD or if they do they are aware and we can work together on it. I wish I could get to that point with my wife. I care so much for her and want to see our relationship now flourish with this.

She's never been officially diagnosed but as I've read through the workbook and listening to the books it all seems spot on.

Hey...some stuff to reflect on. 

Never...always...those words in relationship chat are markers I use to alert me to "drama" and/or the presence of dichotomous thinking (also called black and white thinking).

A place to reflect for you is to reread your last couple posts...and EVERY time you see always or never...or another absolute word...ask yourself..is it really true...is there ONE example that contradicts?

 
Also...consider this regarding your response to her divorce request.

It sounds to me like you told her you didn't want a divorce but also told her you wanted to be friends and minimize the impact of her divorce decision..should she do so.

Is that really the "message" you want to send?

If a random person came along and destroyed your marriage (which it's obvious you value)...would you seek the deepest relationship possible with that person...going forward?

Right...you wouldn't seek a relationship with that person.

So...why seek a relationship with someone that destroys things that are precious to you?

Why do all kinds of efforts and gymnastics to minimize the effects of your wife's choice to behave badly?

How can she NOT hear a  message that says...in effect..."I'm the cleanup crew for the destruction you impose on our relationship"   (I mean..look at all the efforts and double efforts to get her to go to therapy)

Finally:  Are you pleased with the results of all these efforts?

Best,

FF

MontanaDude, I read your posts and I see a lot of *WORDS*

Now I’m not BPD and the effect this has on me is like a blizzard of *words*

I can imagine your wife feeling overwhelmed with all the stressors I previously mentioned and hearing all these *words*

I know you are trying to be compassionate, understanding, wanting to encourage a dialog with her, hoping to come to a place of forgiveness and having an overview of your good intentions and how hard you’ve worked to provide for her and the children.

However, as you realize, she is coming from a place of overwhelming emotion and your *words* are likely to feel like a verbal assault, an attempt to control her, to dominate her.

I know this is not your intention.

Let’s step back from this and try and find a way to communicate to her so she can hear it, feel what you’re wanting her to understand, and know that you love her and want the marriage to continue.

You’ve heard the axiom “Less is more.”  Think about this every time you have an opportunity to speak with her.

Listen. Ask questions.   https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

“What do you need right now?”

“What can I do to help?”

“How can I be of assistance?”

This is not a time to go deeply into old history, dissect what has gone wrong with the relationship, apologize for past hurts.

Keep it simple. No long word chains.

“I love you.”

“I want our marriage to continue.”

“I adore you.”

Yes you are correct. I need to be very careful about using these words both in writing and conversation. Thanks for the reminder. They are true in a few instances but I need to really dig into my usage of them.

I'm very aware of the gray in a relationship

Yes you are correct. I need to be very careful about using these words both in writing and conversation. Thanks for the reminder. They are true in a few instances but I need to really dig into my usage of them.

I'm very aware of the gray in a relationship

Yes you are correct. I need to be very careful about using these words both in writing and conversation. Thanks for the reminder. They are true in a few instances but I need to really dig into my usage of them.

I'm very aware of the gray in a relationship

Sorry I don't know why my post was getting cut off.

Yes you are correct. I need to be very careful about using these words both in writing and conversation. Thanks for the reminder. They are true in a few instances but I need to really dig into my usage of them.

I'm very aware of the gray in a relationship. It is not black and white.

Yes minimize from the standpoint of any negative effects on our family as much as possible. But yes I can see the dilemma in letting her know I'll still be here to help and "cleanup".

What do you suggest to let her know while I don't agree I can respect her decision and will support her in it? I want to make sure if it does happen it can go as smooth as possible for us all. Because it will be hard enough as is.

Doesn't mean I'm gonna do the work for her but at some point if she decides to file and do the work I'm gonna have to come to the table with my thoughts so I don't get screwed. And honestly right now she's not even at a place where I think she's capable of filing. She has done zero work so far.

Thanks so much for your insights and reflections.

And no I'm not pleased with the results of my efforts and realize and know things need to be done drastically different moving forward.

Yes I can fully appreciate this. I've had to resort to writing things to her because our conversations don't seem to be effective. And I take ownership in that. Listening intently does go a long ways.

I've asked her the exact questions below and I do know how I can help her and am doing those things. She even said thank you and how much she appreciates it.

Thanks for the reminder.

I was not planning to send her all those things BTW but I do have a letter. And it is a lot. It's a hard balancing act because I have been holding back not sharing my heart with many things because I was afraid of her reaction. And now I'm no longer afraid. I'm trying my best to follow the spirit and convey to her my desires.

At the end of the day our actions mean more than our words, I'll continue to focus on those yet still tell her I'm in this with her until she chooses otherwise.

I have no desire to bring up old hurts and wounds.

I am very grateful for your words.

Here's an example of an exchange. She isn't sleeping, and has some hard work today. And again each day she says she loves me. Just a roller coaster.

ME
Good luck today. I'm sorry you aren't sleeping, it has been tough indeed. You are in my prayers.

HER
Thank you. I appreciate it. It’s ok. It’s my decision, I have to deal with the consequences.

ME:
Matthew 7

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened

It's so hard being patient and putting all my faith and trust in God when it seems the walls are crumbling around me. It is hard indeed. But I have felt his embrace and love through it all.

We are both dealing with the consequences of it. I am not fine either. As much as I'm doing my best.

It's ok for it to not be ok. How could it be?

Her:
I know. I’m sorry it is so hard. I hate how much it is hurting you.

I don't even know how to respond.

I want to say "Are you truly sorry? Is this really what you want or do you feel backed into a corner?"

What is the "it" she is talking about?

Are you interested in also discussing some of the religious aspects of this.

Full disclosure.  I'm conservative Baptist and while my beliefs haven't changed..the way I went expressing those beliefs and communicating with my wife have changed DRAMATICALLY...especially around religious issues.

This may lead some of the posts to be titled "christian discussion" or something like that (which is ok by the guidelines)...that way people understand ahead of time the content they are likely to read.

Last for now:  I used to be a guy that used lots of words like that..especially when exasperated and my pwBPD (FF wife) was claiming I didn't love her...was banging some random ho...or plotting to take away her children (sadly I could go on).

Picking 1 message on 1 issues...and delivering it with minimal words creates POWER.   It can work for you.

Best,

FF

MontanaDude, you are getting some great advice here from formflier and Cat Familiar. My situation is very similar to yours. (I read that phrase a lot here!) What I've learned, and what I think you are struggling with, is to keep words to a minimum. Don't raise any topics (especially not divorce), don't solve any problems, one subject at a time. But you are allowed to ask simple questions, showing empathy.

We have two young children, uBPDw's behavior got worse after the birth of the first. She is perimenopausal. There seems also to be a connection to her period. But things are starting to get better here. There's always the underlying serious threat of divorce. But equally she often talks about a future that seems to have us still together. Arguing is now almost non existent. But still separate beds, and only rarely do we do things as a family.

I can almost see a stable future. That stability comes from not JADEing etc., and the stuff in my first paragraph. What I'm missing though is how to get from stable to as normal as possible. I think that not discussing things allows problems to disappear gradually, with no decision making (and no loss of face). But...normal = same bed, and there's no way of doing that gradually!

The it being this. The entire circumstances and her wanting a divorce.

Long story short I came home and was very blunt and bold. I said "do you really want a divorce?"

She doesn't, she is just scared and worried. About what I don't know but we're gonna sit down and talk about it soon. I'm gonna ask her specifically what she is scared and worried about and listen... Lots of listening.

Yes I'm learning I need to use less words and be more direct.

My wife is never claiming I don't love her. She just feels she will never be good enough and I will always want more than what she can give. Which I am trying to understand from her point. When we discuss it, I listen, validate. Try and give her my feelings but she doesn't seem to understand.

At this point in the game I'll do my best but I'm not sure how much headway we'll make until she starts going to therapy and being happy with herself.

As we discuss what we need in this marriage I am going to suggest that very thing. "I need her to go to therapy and work through what she needs to so she can feel happy." Not entirely sure how to say it but I will figure it out when I go to therapy and talk with the therapist.

Thanks!

OK...so...can you take a couple lines and explain "it" from her point of view. 

What does it sound like when she explains "it"?

Best,

FF

Good question. I suppose I need to ask her what "it" is. I assume she means the divorce.

The emojis were messing up the post. I made another one without the emojis and it worked.

So on Sun night I approached her. I felt very bold and felt as if I needed to ask her so I asked "Do you really want this divorce?"

She said she didn't.

I asked her if she trusted me, she said she did. I said we need to leave the BS behind and do this much differently moving forward. We can't do it the same way. She said she was just scared and worried but didn't explain much beyond that.

We slept in the same bed that night and had a brief short conversation about her just being worried. She hadn't been sleeping hardly at all and I could see she was in pain that day and she was able to sleep better that night.

I then had to leave on a 3 day trip and we have been texting and talking back and forth, keeping things light and telling each other "I love you"

I then sent this and we're here now.

ME:
Babe, I know you're scared and worried, and I really look forward to understanding how this feels to you. I can fully appreciate the feeling of being scared and worried in our relationship. And honestly still feel some of this. I've been able to let a lot go of feeling scared through prayer, self reflection and knowing I can only control what I do.

I know if we both truly want this we can overcome the challenges. And do this differently from here on out.

Honesty, vulnerability, listening, validation, and empathizing with each other will help. I know how sucky I've been at some of it.

We've overcome a lot already, we will overcome this if we want to.

I love having fun together.

I love you goodnight.

HER:
I love that too. I told you I wanted a divorce because my heart gave up. I don’t know that doing things differently at this point will change that. That isn’t something I can just switch back on as much as I wish I could. I hate it.
I always love having fun with you

ME:
I can appreciate that. We'll talk tomorrow evening. Have a great day.

HER:
I don’t mean that I don’t want to. I want that so badly. I’m sorry

ME:
I hear you, and understand what you mean. Your heart gave up.

I want to as well. We'll talk about how we can. I love you.

HER:
I love you too

Ideas on what to discuss with her in our next in person conversation and the best approach?

I do not want to overwhelm her. I want to walk away from our next conversation on a positive note and with some direction. I'm not gonna give her letters or read my thoughts from my phone. She absolutely doesn't like that. I want to be succinct because she gets lost if I use long sentences.

I want to ask her the following and really listen.

Can you explain what you are scared and worried about?

What does it mean for you when you say your heart gave up?

You say you want to move forward so how would you like to do that?

You said you don't really want a divorce on Sun so what do you want to do next?

You said you do trust me, what does this mean for you?

I really love this from the book Loving Someone with BPD on how to best respond to someone.

Seems like this may be a good step to talking with her.

1. Regulate my own emotions
2. Validate at every step
3. Ask or Assess
4. Brainstorm or troubleshoot
5. Get any info I can about my role, if any and what I can plan on the outcome

Just stepping in for a minute over from the Family Law board -- hello, MontanaDude  :hi:

As strange as it may sound, that seems like it went the best it could've. I'm not getting any vibes that she was totally spiraled or escalated -- though you do know her best.


110% right idea on not going in overwhelming her with everything you want to get on the table. I think you're headed the right direction with being very open to listening. Couple of other tweaks to your ideas could be:

"Babe... I'm just here tonight to listen to you, to hear you... nothing else" [ONLY say this if you can completely commit to not "having to" have your say that night)

"I'm so open to hearing what you're scared and worried about, if you're up for it"

[talking happens]

"Hey... that meant a lot. Anything else you'd like me to know tonight?"

[things wrap up]

And as weird as it sounds, you don't take your turn to talk right that night. Maybe get 2-3 of these "I'm just here to listen" sessions under your belt, to start those baby steps of turning around the dynamic between you guys. Lots and lots of room for her to talk and share, and get a different experience with you, where you empathetically listen. It'll take patience, yet if you can plan on that going in, it could pay off.

...

Part of me is leaning away from questions involving phrasing like "Can you explain" or "What does that mean", or questions starting with the word "You".

My gut feeling is that even those structures of questions may be too "harsh" for her in this vulnerable time.

Any time you can pivot to "We... together..." or "I just want to care about/listen to/hear you" seems like it'll get a better reception and lay a more positive foundation.

Thoughts? (From you, and/or from other members)?

...

One step at a time! Kudos to you for being willing to try something different and maybe uncomfortable for you.

-kells76

This is solid stuff! Thank you so much!

I feel like I constantly have to do mental gymnastics it's exhausting. At some point I need to know when to tap out. I feel like we're close because she said a divorce and at this point if I'd just been going along with it we may still be headed down that path. I just felt very strongly about asking her if she really wanted a divorce on Sunday and so far it seems it may have paid off. I'm just not ready to give up on my wife of 20 years unless that's what she wants.

Do you mean this entire thing or just this last convo that didn't spiral? It Def didn't feel like that convo escalated.

I think we struggle with even texting but talking can be even harder. Texting just feels so cold at times. But I know it gives us both time to better process.

I like your idea on just listening, caring, empathy. Hard part is I'm just not even sure what she wants to do right now? And I don't know if she knows.

So maybe phrase the questions like this?

I really want to listen and understand what you are scared and worried about?

Saying your heart gave up sounds extremely difficult, I'd love to understand what that means to you?

When I asked if you really wanted a divorce on Sunday you said you do not. If you want to share I'd love to understand what that means for you and us?

Thanks!

I'm definitely always willing to try harder and new things. I don't mind being uncomfortable. It's what I do for my entire career.

For you...no more saying the word "divorce"...no more saying the word "you"

When your mind says "you need to xyz.." switch to a more "open questioning" thing..."gosh..seems like there should be a way to work through scared feelings"  (see how it's ambiguous whose feelings you are talking about?  That way she can "grab it" if she wants...and if she really can't process right now...she can leave it.

When you say things like "you need to take a deep breath and calm yourself..."...you have tossed it in her lap...she has to do something with it...and if she is already not calm..most likely she will "toss it back" to you. (not what you want)

Last for now:  Lots of listening...make sure you have it right...do NOT JADE.

Example:  her..blah blah you xyz...and I was scared.

you:  I'm sorry you were scared...(pause for a while)

let's say there is back and forth and convo ends.

Now let's also assume that if she knew what you were "really" doing and thinking..she shouldn't have been scared.  DO NOT tell her this in same "listening" conversation...give it a couple days and in a very few words...in almost an "oh by the way.." kind of way, you can say something like

"Hey babe...was thinking about what you said a few nights ago.  I was trying to accomplish (fill in blank)..I'm sorry it was misunderstood.  (stop talking...yes...those few words) then lean in to give her a peck and then ask if she wants some water or tea.

If she wants to talk about what you said..she can raise it.  If she wants tea..get it for her and let the seed you just planted...germinate...very slowly.

When in doubt...LISTEN.

Best,

FF 

Thanks for this. I'm letting it sink in and trying to make sure I understand.

So for me don't say the word divorce unless she mentions something? And don't say "You" if I'm asking her a question?

Why don't ask about the divorce question? Is that not a valid question to ask?

I'm trying to figure out how to best approach the questions during our dinner conversation tomorrow. She agreed to having dinner and talking about this stuff.

At this point she's expecting me home tonight from my trip and in bed with her and said she'll see me soon.

I really thought a lot of what we had been going through our entire marriage was just normal marriage stuff and some of the things you hear about being a woman (BTW I do not mean this in a sexist way at all) just her not being able to let go and forgive about things, getting super angry at times with no rational understanding, stuffing her feelings, depressed, anxious, irritable. And of course me being oblivious to some things and having no idea about how she felt about some things because she wouldn't express them to me with words. It's just very interesting as I've learned more about BPD and talked to other woman how it seems a mixture with BPD just magnifying everything for her.

I've literally felt like I was in the twilight zone at times. Hopefully now being able to understand how I can best navigate this and have effective conversations and communicate with her, maybe I can help save our marriage.

I'm literally willing to do whatever it takes and have been so far.

She also finally went to therapy on her own, the female therapist I found for us and she didn't go but rescheduled. She said she liked her. I meet with the same therapist again tomorrow and am very hopeful she'll be able to help us both. I have lots of my own work to do as well! I 100% know this.

Thanks so much for all your help.

I've seen some great progress in my relationship with my uBPDw. And I find it upsetting when I read here people thinking that talking or conversations is going to solve everything. To a first approximation I'd say that talking/conversations solve nothing! It's best to assume that they will actually make things worse. I know that in marriage counselling they seem to be fixated on talking through issues. I just don't believe that, especially not with BPD in the picture.

As has been said before:

Less is more.

If in doubt, STFU.

Don't raise contentious issues.

If contentious issues are raised just minimally and empathically respond. Single words or noises if possible. Seriously! Tell yourself that the issue will soon blow over. And congratulate yourself when it does!

Thanks for chiming in. BTW what is uBPDw? Is that a BPD wife?

I'm slowly realizing conversations don't solve a lot. The challenge is I'm left wondering what the hell is going on?

Our last therapist was the one who let me know she had BPD. I had no idea what it was. I think he had a good balance of things but he triggered her and she was done. She wanted to see a female therapist and I was 100% on board with that. We've both now had 1 appt with the new one. I told her everything that happened and where we are at so we'll see how this goes. She's older in 60's with 2 kids and a widow. Seems very blunt and matter of fact which I hope will be good for my wife. I love bluntness. I have zero issues with someone calling me out for my stuff. In fact I encourage it and always ask for it in therapy. I want to be better always.

When you say the issues blow over eventually I have not found that to be the case. They just grow until it becomes a larger issue.

My wife has been dealing with a lot lately and I know she's overwhelmed. We'll see how dinner goes and I will do all I can to just listen and not get my agenda on the table at all.

I do think the "divorce" question needs to be addressed because otherwise I'm continuing to play the game of guess what's coming next, walking on eggshells and not knowing what she wants to do. She said we both need to work on ourselves which I agree.

I want to do this much differently and show her something has changed and keep her guessing. At some point though doesn't the question need to be asked. I meet with the therapist tomorrow and will see what she says based off the convo she had with my wife.

Thanks!

uBPDw - stands for "undiagnosed BPD wife".  Confusing I know. 

Everyone that responded to your post has better coaching than I can give, however I'll just say my initial impression when reading your questions for your wife was that it's not practical to expect a person with BPD to be able to answer most of those questions.  And even if they answer the questions they may not be truthful or actually rational.  The person with BPD will think the reasoning they are giving is true, because it feels real to them, when in fact it is not.  So I agree with everyone else, you're better off listening and not asking specific things. 

There's a fair point to what NonnyMouse brings up. As you've mentioned yourself, the pattern between you and your W, and then also your W's behaviors, didn't start overnight. These are some long-term, perhaps entrenched dynamics.

While you have 100% control over your 50% contribution to the dynamic, there is a true aspect to the statement that conversation won't change who she is. Personality disorders at their core aren't fixable by pharmaceuticals or by what someone else does or doesn't do. They're really, really ingrained postures towards the world, really entrenched and almost primal ways of being. Hence... personality disorder.

So the true point is that your wife will still be who she is, at the same time that you are working on your 50% contribution. It would take long-term commitment to some painful personal work for her to adjust that psychic structure. Not impossible, yet as NonnyMouse points out, it's not just having a better conversation that fixes her. So, that's fair to keep in mind. This is long-term stuff.

That being said, the work you do on your 50% can make a huge difference for you personally in the livability of the relationship, and can create a different "baseline vibe" between you guys where much less time is spent on "managing the crazy" and a lot more time is spent on enjoying the positive moments and disengaging from the irrational/negative times. I wonder if a lot of your guys' "relationship time" is spent on managing/dealing with her intense emotions... it's not impossible to change that together-time ratio to less of "you helping manage her feelings" and more of "you guys enjoying positive times, and you personally disengaging from doing her work for her".

...

Anyway. Lots of meta stuff. Which (again this phrase) long-term is hopefully helpful. Committing to staying in a relationship with a pwBPD (person with BPD, or traits/behaviors) can take a lot of non-intuitive skills applied for a long period of time. Not a weekend project, though for many it is worth it. Something each member decides individually.

Couple other thoughts:


Subtle point from mitten.

We hang so much weight on "the words that were said". Like, if my husbands' kids' mom (the reason I joined here) swears at one point that "she is a logical person", and then later, when it comes down to figuring out the kids' schedule, says one kid should have more time with him and one kid should have less, and then when pressed on it says "logic has nothing to do with it"... we get frustrated, angry, and we point to "the words that were said" -- "You said you were logical! This isn't logical!"

I'd join in mitten's caution against hanging too many hopes on specific words that get said (i.e., in answers to specific questions). Sure, a best-case scenario is that you get to ask your "do you really want a divorce" question, and at that time, she says "of course not babe, let's work it out". Part of what characterizes BPD is harmfully intense and (wildly) fluctuating emotions that, instead of facts outside leading to feelings inside, instead are the seed inside that leads to "creating facts" externally to justify the feeling.

If another conversation happens after that, and she is experiencing harmfully intense, strongly fluctuating emotions, she may justify those feelings by bringing divorce back up -- as it's also an intense and strongly emotional "external" thing that justifies how she feels inside.

You would be caught off-guard: "But babe, you said last week you were committed, you never wanted a divorce again..."

That would be really hurtful to your guys' relationship.

So, it's not to say "don't listen to anything she says". It's more to say -- listen for the emotions behind the words, and understand that if she is in fact dealing with BPD, then it's not going to help your relationship to hang a ton of weight on specific words she says. She may use words to "get out" feelings from inside, versus (as more of us do) use words to be really specific about communicating. It's the ol' "expression versus communication" debate over what speaking/writing are for. She expresses, you communicate. If we frame what she does as "well she must be communicating... just like I do"... that isn't a helpful direction forward for keeping that relationship together.

Understand that when she answers intense questions, she may be expressing a feeling in the moment, versus communicating a "stone tablet truth". If you can work with that, that can really help.

Good question.

I'm interested to hear what other members' takes on this are, too.

My first thought is twofold:

Don't do her work for her and Don't validate the invalid

Not doing her work: If she wants a divorce, she is an adult, and needs to figure out how to bring it up, negotiate, do the paperwork, etc. It's not appropriate to "help her" by bringing it up or reminding her of words she said. That's her job. If it's "too hard" for her to bring up what she said... that's for her to figure out. It may be uncomfortable to have a loose end there for a while... you can do it, you can sit with that discomfort. Bringing up "the past" or "what was said" with a pwBPD is rarely productive. Actions moving forward will tell you a lot more about what she wants, than asking her to clarify verbally what she wants.

Not validating the invalid: You don't want a divorce. So don't engage on or repeatedly raise a topic that you don't plan to participate in (your 50%). If she genuinely wants one, she will move forward with it in a way where the actions will tell you what she wants or doesn't want. I.e., if you get served papers, you will know generally where things are headed. Let her actions tell you what's going on. If you're committed to working on the relationship, choose not to validate things that aren't valid to you. Participate in relationship-building moves to the best of your ability. Bringing up or asking about "the divorce" may actually give it substance that it doesn't really have at the moment.

Anyway... just more thoughts.

One day at a time...

kells76

Totally agree with kells. Read her last two posts and commit those points to memory.

Mitten, Kells everyone. Thanks so much. Wow you all have been extremely helpful.

This honestly in some ways has been more helpful than going to therapy. As in more direct, precise, actionable info.

Is there like an online video support group anyone knows about? If not I'd love to start one. A Zoom call with 5 or 6 people talking through issues. I've looked for a local support group and can't find one. Seriously people who've dealt with this have better info than therapist haha. I know I want to help others as well. And my daughter is also dealing with this and I need to start getting her help.

Ok... I'm following what everyone is saying. And yes there is no logic so I'm not sure why I try to be logical.

So... I came home after a 3 day trip away. Sleeping in bed with her,, hugging, saying I love you. Almost normal, not quite the physicality we had a month ago but it seems we're working our way there. I'm just not pushing. I let her give me the hug. It's a hard balance because I don't want her thinking Im putting it all on her. But definitely does not feel like we're headed towards divorce direction. And maybe she does still want it I truly don't know and to your point let her bring it up.

She's been wanting to talk about how we should move forward with the divorce and what my thoughts are on it. I haven't given her anything is it fair to just say, I don't want a divorce so let me know what you would like to do. Especially because I've been accused of being controlling in our marriage. Which I can fully appreciate her viewpoint on that. I've realized how much I've enabled her and have controlled things because she wouldn't make decisions.

Anyhow, we're meeting for dinner tonight and I want to make it a COMPLETELY different experience for her. Like blow her away where she's wondering what is going on with me. Usually I have to push for discussions.

So I'm gonna implement what you all said. Not gonna push or dig for answers. I want to lead it off with more along the lines of is there anything you'd like to discuss? She's anticipating a discussion about where we are and I'm sure she's expecting me to have all sorts of thoughts and ideas but I want to really make it about listening to her.

Thanks so much I'll let ya'll know how it goes. I'll post some of the questions I should ask and see what ya'll think. Thanks!

You got this!  |iiii

When in doubt...

Keep it light and pleasant -- "Babe, it's nice just being here with you... Any funny customers at work today?"

and/or

Fewer versus more words -- "Tell me more... all ears... "

She may or may not indicate she wants to do a "deep dive" conversationally... As long as you can know that ahead of time, that'll give her the "no pressure" vibes that may help things stay at an enjoyable level.

That -- the "no pressure, just nice being with you" vibes -- could be what "blows her away" as you mentioned.

One day at a time!

kells76

Love this approach! I'll definitely try that.

Low pressure, let her do the talking. I'm a bit worried if she gets into the deep stuff but I'll just listen and not pile on words.

Well it went better than could have been expected. I took her to a winery where they did Trivia and even though she didn't want to play it was fun listening and guessing on our own.

She drank some wine, I do not drink so I just listened to her talk. Lots of listening from me. Told her it was nice to just hang out.

Finally towards the end of the night she said well we didn't really talk about things so we probably should.

I just left it up to her and said I'm here to listen.

I did a lot of listening validating, and while some of it did get a bit deep I let her be the one to bring stuff up and I kept my talking to a minimum.

We talked about both seeing the same counselor and both being recommend the same book "Codependent No More" and laughed a bit about that. I actually realized about a week ago I met 5 criteria of being codependent and shared that insight with her.

I talked about owning my emotions and even though we both feel so much when the other person has high charged emotions I know I can only control My emotions and not try to fix hers.

She's still very scared and worried things will go back to how they were. I said I can appreciate that. She said she was willing to make the relationship work before even if it meant sacrificing herself. I empathized with her and said that sounds extremely difficult, and also told her I don't expect that and never would. I mentioned our fuel tanks need to be full so we can be our best selves and if she ever feels like she's sacrificing herself and wants to discuss it I'm here to talk.

My heart breaks for women, and wives struggling with this. They've given so much for so many years at their own expense and it seems like often us husband's are clueless. We want nothing more than to love our wives and be there for them. And on top of it all the hormone stuff, premenipousal just stacks it all on.

So I can help out more in ways I didn't know before, be there, Validate, empathize and work on me and being the best for her. I will be taking way more part on this forum as it's helped me tremendously. You all have been so helpful!

I'm still learning a lot and wanted to see what you guys thought about how I handled this convo today and if I could do a better job at validating her emotions or you have any other suggestions

I asked if she wanted to do a game night with some friends this morning.

Me:
630 work for tonight?

And I'm gonna make Crepes, eggs and bacon.

Her:
Ya. That sounds good. I want to be honest. I feel anxious about it. I can’t pretend like everything is “normal”. Does that make sense?

Me:
Absolutely. I can understand what you are saying. Thanks for being honest. Is there anything I can do or you'd like me to do to help with your feeling anxious?

I thought a game night would be a good break from the stress and chaos of late and help us both. That's why I wanted to make sure you were good with it.

Have a great day at work crushing it!

I love you

Her:
Not necessarily. I just can’t jump back like I’m great, as much as I wish I could.

I agree. It will be good. Thank you. I love you too.

Me:
Thanks for sharing with me how you're feeling.

Her:
I’m trying to just be real.

Me:
Funny Gif
Thank you. Me too.

Quick update. I'm still hanging in there. Divorce is off the table at least for the time being. I'm of course anxious and worried it's still there for her and I'm sure it's at the back of her mind but I can only control what I can do and not worry about her.

I'm continuing to work on being the best person I can be for me, my kids and if she decides that's good enough for her to then great. And if not I don't want to be with someone who doesn't see the value in working on those things together and is unable to forgive.

She's at least committed to moving forward though it feels very ethereal if that makes sense? Like it's hard to even talk about anything with her that remotely is a serious conversation.

We're both doing individual therapy, haven't started marriage therapy "again" and I don't want to push for it as much as we need it. I've been on my own 4 times over the last month and will continue to at least lead by example which is the best way.

She says things like "She wants to just be" without clarifying so I am going to ask her to clarify what that means for her.

One of the most difficult things is sitting here wondering when she will get set off again and all hell breaks loose.

I'm doing my best to not engage and validate the invalid which is hard in practice. I'm still not 100% sure how to do this effectively.

It blows me away how everything I say tends to be viewed in a negative light and I literally don't know how to communicate with her past anything superficial and "easy". She throws conversations she doesn't seem to like back in my face

She has mentioned she doesn't have the capability to even talk about things but yet still wants to move forward?

And she still has so much pains, resentment, anger, hurts bottled up inside it comes out in any conversation that is remotely emotional and I'm left feeling again like I have to tuck my tail between my legs and retreat.

The emotional roller coaster of it all is completely draining and exhausting though I have learned to let go more, put her feelings and issues back on her, even telling her so and owning my stuff and working on me.

Just got done listening to "Loving Someone with Borderline Personality", finishing "Codependent No More" which I realized I was struggling and still am with codependency and in all of this while it's good to know I still feel as if there is no progress made to connect, engage, discuss anything remotely emotional or working on our marriage.

I know it's multiple things, time, consistency, effort, and allowing her to work what she needs to work on and I do the same.

I think we both have a lot of codependency which makes a relationship difficult. The difference is I have always had very high self esteem, don't let people get under my skin, and am able to forgive and move on. There are things she has mentioned it's clear she is harboring deep, deep resentment and hurt on and doesn't want to let it go, nor does she think she even can.

And in those times I start to question why am I going to continue to work so hard if she doesn't even think she'll ever be able to move past hurts? And if this is her bottleneck and anytime we talk about something remotely difficult she goes back to all the pains and hurts and that is the forefront of the conversation.

And then fails to recognize her part in it all, though I am not pointing that out of course. But I happily and readily admit my failures and things I have done, and that I am and have continually worked on improvement. The reality is we can move past things and do better. At least that's what I am doing and showing. She seems to be stuck.

What in the heck is the best approach here? Time, consistency, and learning?

In another thread  kells76 posted something that is critical for you to understand and apply on it's most fundamental level...like the starting point of how you approach the entire relationship.



I think it's important to read that a few times.

Really focus on the "feeling" and "emotion" when she says she (paraphrase) "doesn't know if she will ever get over it"...rather than her giving you a "fact"...or  "thoughtful judgment".

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

Thank you this is extremely helpful! Focusing on her words being more emotion and feeling driven which I can relate and understand because we all do this at times. The struggle is she reacts as if they are facts. And projects all the hurt, pain, resentment onto me in our conversations and no matter what I say she picks out the negative and I'm left feeling completely confused and more than anything stuck with her.

It's interesting she tells me because I am a good salesman I just analyze everything, I take her words and the conversations and spin them around... I 100% can appreciate this and this is her reality. As I've been in therapy I have talked through this and come to realize I am not spinning things around but trying to talk through it with her logically and it is definitely the wrong approach.

The way of thinking in working with someone with BP is completely illogical and not intuitive. It takes time for all this to sink in and practice it.

She is noticing "changes" which is for now me basically taking a step back and not saying a whole lot or trying to push issues and discussions. She has said "I want to just be" which I'm not sure what that means for her. She hasn't explained it, I wrote her a quick note today if she can tell me what that means for her so I can make sure I understand and can help do my part.

The lack of clarity in conversations is one of the most difficult things for me to wrap my head around and sit with. I'm learning to do better with it. It's just so counterintuitive to me. Talk, discuss, work through things, have resolution and move on. Ughhhh I wish it was that simple.

But... in all this. I do love her unconditionally to want to make this work and understand her better. Of course there are boundaries that if crossed I unfortunately will not be able to remain but I can;t even convey those to her yet because any "boundaries" or "ultimatums" are seen negatively. I will have to have the conversations soon but I'm allowing her time and space right now and will also discuss it more in therapy.

My poor wife literally can't even sleep right now. She tosses and turns. She has admitted though it's her "PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm)" and she has to deal with it. I don't know how to help her besides reassure her I am here if she needs me. I know it's partly because she continues to bury, repress, harbor resentment and if we have a bad day it ruins her entire world, demeanor. I think it's partly why she "gave up" and doesn't feel like she has the energy to make the marriage work.

I'm looking into something called a healing separation and plan to discuss it with the therapist. To help give her the time and space she needs but yet specific time frames and rules of engagement for it. This is what she failed to give me any of with a "divorce" or separation. She couldn't say anything other than, she has to figure it out. I cannot sit in limbo for weeks why she figures it out. So I may need to take the initiative for my own mental health as well and propose something like this.

Anyone ever been in a healing separation or know much about it with a BP partner?

I think #5 is where we are at: https://www.focusonthefamily.com/marriage/why-and-how-to-pursue-a-healing-separation/

Your thinking style appears very much like mine.  I'm an ESTJ...executive type...I love process improvement..facts...logical debate and all that.


I completely understand and agree with where you are coming from...because I was there and sometimes "go back there".

Still     red-flag red-flag red-flag red-flag red-flag    there is nothing helpful in that attitude/point of view.

Remember..pwBPD are very sensitive, so they will pick up on "negative judgement ".    The attitude that I highlight is true yet it also will come through in subtle and sometimes not so subtle ways.

What I find helpful is this..

What if the person you love actually spoke a different language...it kinda appears the same but on further reflection...it's a different language.  Not better or worse..just different.

So now your "attitude" is that you are interested in what this person you love is trying to say and you need to learn a new language to properly get that.


Can you step back and see how one of these is likely to be helpful...and the other...not so much.

Best,

FF

Thanks for this!

BTW I am a ENFP - Campaigner on the 16 personality types.

I can fully appreciate what you are saying about the language. Makes sense. I hope it's not to late to learn her language better and salvage what we have. It feels based off her actions and words it may be to late... I'm definitely continuing to learn differently and she has even said she's noticed my efforts.

I am resisting slipping into old habits and not pushing issues and working through things logically.

Right now my goal is serving her, understanding her, listening, and working on myself more than any other time while learning new communication methods and more about BP even though she won't address it herself. I know there are things I can do to help us have a better relationship.

Thanks for the words of wisdom!

BTW @formflier what do you mean by pick up on negative judgement? I don't feel I'm judging her at all? She has said she feels judged and I'm trying to continue to understand how and what I am doing to convey that to her? She feels judged by a lot of people though and has brought that up throughout our marriage. Those people are so judgemental...

I'm sure that you are not "judging" her and that most normal people would agree.

This is us here...BPD and those that act in those "BPDish" ways are not the norm...right?  They are outliers.

So...super duper sensitive and will likely "see" judgment where there IS NO JUDGMENT.  (I think your experience with her validates this)

So...I see two broad choices.

1.  Convince her that her "judgment radar" is defective...not normal and she needs to adjust it.

or

2.  Be conscientious about  communicating in such a way that makes it harder for her to  "tag" you as "being a judger".

Please note my language...I said "make it harder"...not "make it so she never feels judged"...

There is no "solution" here that works all the time...yet this can be made lots better.  LOTS.

For the rest of the time, you can assume a neutral attitude and let her "call in rounds on her own position" 

Best,

FF

 

Totally, I am tracking.

#1 definitely is futile!

#2 while hard is the obvious choice. The struggle of course is sometimes it seems like no matter what you say or do it's judgey... What do you mean by call in her own rounds? Sounds like a good analogy just want to make sure I'm tracking.

Thanks so much! This is some good stuff. Seriously really appreciate your help.

When's the party for "People with Spouses who have BPD so we can get smarter." I need to go to that party.

Thanks!

Sorry..military analogy.  If someone is calling in an artillery strike..and you are next to them...and they are calling for round to land on their own position...at some point you leave if they won't listen to you.

Calling in rounds on your own position...

Hey many...this is hard stuff and lots of it is not intuitive and requires deep thought...and deep thought when a pwBPD has just scrambled your brains with a crazy azz argument..is unlikely to ever work.

So...take all this onboard and be DELIBERATE about being kind to yourself!

Best,

FF

All good I figured it was. I was army for 4 years. In the dental corps so no combat experience.

Thanks man I appreciate it. How long have you been with your spouse and how long have you known about BPD?

I'm only about 6 months into knowing she's dealing with it but I knew she was struggling our entire marriage. It seemed medication helped her be calmer but that isn't the underlying issue and so after her emotions for 20 years it all came boiling to the surface and I'm left spining wondering what the heck is going on!

I am committed to her and learning all I can to be a better husband for her and a better man for me. I can't see myself walking away unless marital boundaries are crossed and even though I've felt a lot of pains and hurts from her but I know it's not intentional and we're still battling through.

Hey...I'm retired Naval Aviator, whatever you imagine life flying off aircraft carriers is like...that's a pretty good picture of my first 10 years.  Second 10 years I was an active duty reservist, in charge of making sure other reservists were ready, I still flew but wasn't on the carrier and went all over central and south america using my plane to chase smugglers.

Later in that last 10 years I commanded 2 Navy shore installations and still got to fly a little bit while in those positions.

Anyway...I'm sure that military marriage masked BPDish type behavior ( and in my wife it leaned more PPD (paranoid) rather than BPD...) 

About 15 years into marriage we had a natural disaster that forced us from our home/farm for about 6 months.  Upon reflection I can see that my wife and I had dramatically  different mental health responses to those events. 

I clung to facts to prove the world was ok and she started accusing me of sleeping with women, having a secret life, having secret kids (yes..actually had a baby identified that was "mine" and at the last second before paternity testing..she decided it wasn't my baby but I still made the Mom holler from my manliness...on a regular basis.

Oh..the days when FF had a harem...I miss those days.. (not really but it was entertaining)

Essentially I would prove her theories wrong, which invalidated her...so the next theory came back even worse and worse...and worse...because I was pouring gas on her "fire" with "truth".

So several years of steady decline under one of the umpteen counselors we went to suggested I read SWOE (stop walking on eggshells). 

Then several years of horror as I learned boundaries and how to respond to BPD/PPD in a loving and healthy way...and then for several years things have been relatively calm.  We will have months where I would be hard pressed to find even a single example of "something off"..let alone BPD/PPD.

Now..in the last few days..she has been on the warpath and "projecting" her emotions at me...bigtime. 

At best my responses are "below average" and have inflamed things...so I need to "get back to the basics" while her "storm" passes.

Best,

FF

FF, what an adventurous story!  Both in your military career as well as your marriage.  Great to hear some of the history from someone with a longer knowledge of BPD.  Thanks for sharing your personal experience.  Hope the latest storm passes quickly. 

Thanks for sharing FF! I'm a helicopter pilot, tried flying in the Army but couldn't because of glasses but did it on my own as a civilian. Almost got my instructor rating. I'm only Instrument rated, 190 hours. Was planning to do for a career but realized not enough money, and was gonna have to do a lot of crap flying and moving around. Anyways... another story.

Sounds like you have been through the ringer with your wife! WOW. I cannot even imagine going through that.

Do you find these storms happen often? As I look back at my marriage I realize it's every interaction that is negative for her. Her emotions get projected on me each time. Even with simple stuff and then she spirals until she has some sort of "mental reset."

I'm just biting my tongue for now, working on me and can't really talk about anything difficult outside of therapy who can help her pause and listen, reflect and engage in a constructive manner.

It's so disheartening at times and discouraging. Because I am now working on doing things differently because of what I know I am going to give it time to implement and see how things go, I just hope I can keep up the mental battle and stay strong. I've realized how unhappy I have been at times in this because I felt so lost, alone, and feeling as if I must just be this terrible husband who "makes her feel" all these things. But I know I am not and I know I am a great husband and father. Our kids our amazing and they have let me know I have always been a wonderful dad.

My heart breaks for her knowing she battles this my hope and prayer is she will recognize and get the help she needs.

I read the workbook "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and it was extremely helpful. I bought her a BPD workbook but that did not go over well at all... The interesting thing about it is learning the techniques, DBT and addressing it head on seems to make a world of difference for people. I just don't even know how to approach the topic with her, it's toxic each and every time. I want her to understand I don't view her as broken, or labeled, or crazy. We all have stuff to deal with and work through, if we can recognize and understand what it is why not get help from resources and people who can help us? For me it seems at a surface level like a pride and ego thing for her but I'm sure it's far deeper.

It's just very discouraging at times and a part of me wants to do a Healing separation so she can recognize this is her stuff to deal with and stop projecting it on me. My worry is she will just put her head down like she does, do her work and not address her issues. But I realize that's ultimately not my problem. I can only control and work on me. How do you help someone who doesn;t want to help themselves :-(

Thanks!

Hey MontanaDude, welcome back --


Can you remind me, are either/both of you in therapy? Sorry if it's slipped my mind.


I suspect it's a level of shame that is beyond anything we've experienced... so much so that even a "normal" thing like "I love you, I support you, maybe this workbook that has helped so many people can help you too, I'm giving it to you because I care about you" -- well, like you said, it goes over like a ton of bricks. Something that would be like a 0 or 1 / 10 on a "normal" shame-meter is a 8-9-10 of shame for a pwBPD.

So, you're right, it can come across as something that isn't shame -- as pride, self-image, ego, whatever -- yet I think that's covering up a profound sense of worthlessness that is excruciating to even "poke at" indirectly.

That's why I'm hoping that when you mentioned above "not being able to talk about stuff outside of therapy" that she is in fact going, because that'd be a very good sign. Also hoping that she is with a T who as you mentioned "can help her pause and listen, reflect and engage in a constructive manner". Fingers crossed. It would be an excellent sign if she has a trusting connection with a professional like that.

...


It's understandable that you'd hope she could recognize "whose emotional stuff is whose".

As you think about what she's like, and where she is in her journey, what do you think realistically would happen if you chose that?

...

Just want to say that overall, based on a lot of members' stories that I've read here, yours does sound more hopeful than others. I commend you for wanting to take ownership of "your stuff" and my hope would be that by modeling that behavior, and being willing to change some ways you interact (to "learn to speak her native language"), you guys can have more times of neutral or positive interactions and fewer times of emotional blow-ups running your marriage.

Hang in there...

kells76

Montana Dude. Unfortunately I don't have much time right now but I can't not reply to your situation any longer.
Our stories are almost identical right down to our locations. I'm still not totally familiar with the forum and it's privacy guidelines so I won't ask what town/city you're in and I won't offer mine here now. If there is a pvt msg I'll try to contact you there.

I am also in a similar situation to MontanaDude.  I am married 25 years, with a wife threatening divorce.  I finished Stop Walking On Eggshells and the workbook.  Setting boundaries seems to be helping.

Advice from mitten, formflier, Cat Familiar, and NonnyMouse are all very helpful.  It is good to see folks having long term success.

Do you ever get to a point where you aren't "on edge" knowing that your wife could get upset at you over nothing?    Things are going fairly well right now.  I am waiting for a minor disagreement to set things off again.

Hey...very "broad" advice here.

If you (the non) don't want divorce and your pwBPD is threatening it, that can also be a "boundary issue". 

Here is the thing...they don't need you to participate to get a divorce.  So all the threats and associated "mind blendering" that pwBPD are so good at...are all not needed.

Now..I'm not saying ignore them...but perhaps..

"Babe..that makes me really sad to hear that.  I don't want a divorce, but understand I can't stop you from leaving the relationship.  I'm ready to discuss what we can both do to improve our relationship."

And then just drop it.

Best,

FF

I wish I could do that but it would probably result in being accused of being in denial. So often the downside of saying something helpful is far worse than any potential upside. I'm hoping that a change of mind re divorce will be her idea!

Yep...my suggestion of what to say is not to get a particular response.  I would encourage you to start thinking of what you want to say regardless of how they might respond.

Then remember..there is no requirement that you listen to them talk about you "being in denial"...

Best,

FF

Good advice. I've definitely had to change my way of thinking but the challenge is when they respond so negatively and spiral being able to effectively talk through that. When in reality we shouldn't be trying to talk through that but lovingly reassure I can see this topic is important and I will come back to it once we've had time to cool down. (At least I believe this is the approach. It's still difficult to make sure I'm doing the right thing) It's like this game of chess where I'm still learning the rules and the rules don't make any logical sense. That's actually what it feels like a lot summed up!

I've started taking more ownership of my feelings and when she says things like "Well I know if I say X you will feel y so I don't want to do that because it will hurt you" And I ask why do you say that? Do you know how I feel, have you asked? I don't feel that way so please do not assume. And then I don't delve further. But it absolutely can be so hard and I'm still working on "retraining" my brain.

Thanks Kells. Yes we are both in therapy. I first sought therapy 3 years ago after her emotional affair and we were also wanting to go in with our daughter. Since then I have been the one to schedule almost every single appointment, I think actually ever couples appointment.

We've seen two male therapist who were great. First one never an issue, then we stopped going when things got "better" but we really should have kept going. The last one was great as well and was the one who confirmed my suspicion of BPD after he discussed our daughter having it. The more I read about BPD the more clarity I had about my entire marriage and confusion with her. Now she hasn't been diagnosed by a Psychologist, the therapist was an LCP Marriage Family therapist and worked with many individuals with BPD and as he puts it, "it is an attachment injury that with time can usually be healed. 1 - 2 years." Whther she has it or not the traits are there and just me understanding it seems to be helping us both, especially me as I can detach with love and learning to not think I'm crazy for the things I'm thinking.

After we went through about 5-6 months of roller coastering this last bit she got triggered by him pushing a bit harder in a session with her and she never wanted to go back. She wanted to see a female therapist because she said "A mann will just never be able to fully understand me and what I'm dealing with and I'd rather talk with a woman." To which I'm on board with. I waited around for her to find and schedule one... which didn't happen and when se told me our sis in law had called around and these particular ones referred to us were all booked. I asked if she wanted my help in finding one for us to which she did. So of course I called every female therapist I could find who worked with couples and individuals and seemed might be a good fit. I found one to which we are both going now, I've been twice, her once and we both like.

The lady is Christian, which was important to me. She's more of a motherly type which I thought was also good and she seems very blunt and to the point. It's yet to be seen how she is but because she doesn't have much history with us yet she doesn't quite understand the dynamics of what's happening. She is going to suggest to my wife after their next appointment to see us together.

More than anything my hope with the mediator as in times past is to help us navigate the conversations where she spirals quickly and we are never able to have. This lady honestly seems a little less likely to put up with BS and our last male therapist was much more gentle if I had to summarize it. But... she is a woman and so we'll see how it goes. I just hope it doesn't backfire.

Yes I can understand what you mean by the level of shame is off the charts and that being uber hard to deal with.

Yes I am so willing to own my stuff and work on me. I definitely get discouraged at times especially when my "relationship bucket" feels so low at times and the emotional, spiritual, and intellectual connection is absent and has been for some time because there is no space to have conversations where either we don't agree on, or she overwhelmingly feels guilt, judgement, bad, and I'm left just stuffing everything back in because there is no space right now. I'm hopeful there will be at some point and we can communicate effectively and constructively, and be able to share my feelings without her taking them all on and just feeling guilty and not "enough."

It feels to me (gut instinct and based off conversations with the therapist) she is gonna help bridge some gaps and get into things fairly aggressively in our next session. I just don't want it to go worse.

How do you communicate to someone they are enough when they feel they are not? When the slightest negative feeling seems to burn the entire house down. This I've realized is something beyond my control. Of course not if I was verbally, emotionally, or physically abusive to her. I could completely see someone feeling this way.

She did make a comment recently that really shook me up and took me back, definitely hurtful and I don't think it's true based off what I've read but said I was "emotionally manipulative." Nor do I "feel" like I do this. I would think if she really thought this about me it would be some huge red flag, it certainly would be for me.

Anyways... back to life. Thanks for the help.

Awesome I know it helped me a lot. I need to reread it again. I also really recommend the Book "Loving someone with Borderline Personality Disorder"

I'm definitely not at that point. Maybe FF is or someone else. I'm literally figuring this all out still and how to interact with her.

Why is your wife threatening divorce and has it been something you anticipated or were things already a roller coaster?

Thanks for sharing!

No worries. It's wild how many stories you end up hearing are similar. And we can all help each other in it for sure!

Feel free to share your story here as it may help others and give others the opportunity to chime in with friendly and helpful advice.

My wife has often said, "Maybe we just aren't meant to be together" when there are minor conflicts.  I pretzel myself to try to do what she wants when she says things like that. 

I believe my wife has hoarding tendencies.  It has gotten to the point where it is encroaching on our family's ability to function. 

In the past, I have tried to accommodate her every way I could think of.  I already  do the vast majority of household chores (cooking, dishes, laundry, kids to school & bed, sweep/mop, pet care, lawn, snow removal, gardening, etc) so she has time to deal with the clutter.  I set aside time.  I ask if there is anything I can do.  I try to get her to make a decision on one item at a time.  She has said I cannot donate or throw away anything without her permission.

I changed my approach.  Rather than asking her to make a decision, which I know is very difficult for her, I stated what I would do.  I stated a time that I would deal with clutter in a small, specific, area.  I did not ask her to do anything.  When she didn't deal with it, I did.  The next round, she dealt with the things that were important to her.  That lead to more serious divorce discussions.

After a couple rounds of that, things are getting better (I think).  I have put in on pause in December, because of busyness around the holiday.  We will see what happens in January.

One of the hard things for people to understand is a pwBPD likely means "I feel like we should divorce" and we hear "I'm going to get a lawyer and serve you papers".

Kinda like someone that says "I feel like thru hiking the Appalachian trail"...yet they take no steps or ever even go on a day hike.

They "honestly" had the feeling and communicated that...and only that.

Best,

FF

I can appreciate that. My wife did actually say "I want a divorce." Which then she never took steps to do it and was waiting on me to discuss it when I approached her differently after more than a week of this sitting there not being dealt with. It changed things up a lot because I asked her if she really wanted a divorce to which she replied she didn't but was scared about moving forward.

Moving forward I'm not validating the invalid.

She's fine as long as things are smooth in the marriage and I'm learning how to allow her to deal with her emotions while I detach.

Crazy how codependency has been such a big thing for me without realizing it.

Right...I should have said "While technically she said she wants a divorce", what she really means is "it feels that is the only solution" (kinda a despair thing).

Really important for you to understand this...not just for divorce but for other major life things.

If the words come out of her mouth and says "I want x..." and then she doesn't do anything to get X...what is she really "saying"?

Best,

FF

Yes she specifically said "My heart gave up." Because she felt she'd never be good enough or be able to do all the "things" I am asking. Which interestingly enough I didn't ask her to do things I tried opening up a dialogue about things we can do to better connect.

Right now it's about patients and rebuilding. Things are humming along and at times it seems like everything is perfectly ok. I think paired with the stuff I am learning conflict is lessened as well as she recognizes things in herself and doesn't want to get angry. I'm also leaving her alone when her emotions get high and I can see she is starting to spiral. This typically ends up with her coming to me, apologizing she is having a hard time and I reassure her that's ok and I'm here if she wants to talk about any of it.

The hardest thing I'm having to realize is sitting with "unknowns". her saying things but then not ever clarifying and I'm left wondering WTF?

And yes if she says X and doesn't do anything, it's just feelings and doesn't correlate to action.

Confusing PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm) haha.

But... she's worth it. And I believe our marriage is too. I think things can only get better moving forward as time progresses and we work through things on our own and in therapy. I look forward to the day when we can talk without it spiraling quickly. I believe that will happen as we both work on ourselves and the relationship.

Thanks man!

You've got this!  The good thing is you see tools working in your relationship.

Best,

FF

Hi MontanaDude,
I came over to these romance boards from the Parent of Child with BPD boards and read most of this thread just now. Everything you've shared leads me to believe she's having an affair or wants to. You said she had an "emotional affair" with her boss at some point. It sounds to me like the back and forth that you're witnessing is in response to the push/pull that he or some other new man is giving her himself. When she first asked for a divorce, maybe whoever he is gave her reason to believe he would be available soon. Then maybe he pulled back when she told him she told you, and she started reassessing. pwBPD will rarely leave unless they have somewhere secure to land. And now it's before the holidays, so if what I'm saying is true, she'll make a strong effort to get through them in the most amicable way possible. And then she'll start again by mid-January or so, or perhaps after Valentine's Day. Even if you ask her point-blank, she'll probably deny it. You might try asking her sister though. Another thing that stood out to me was that she left your church. I think this probably has more importance than you realize. Of course, this is just my impression, but I think it's worth at least considering.

I can appreciate your viewpoint, I have 100% confidence it's not an affair. I'll break down a few things. Besides not feeling that at all, which I realize happens to many people but there would be definite indicators that are not present.

The emotional "affair" she had years ago was all one sided. He had no clue how she felt. There's a lot surrounding this I won't go into as to how I know the one sided piece. We worked through it extensively in therapy.

Where we are at today has been a culmination of 22 years and really her entire life.

I think she's dealing with a bit of a MLC but with so many other things throughout the years which have built up.

Throughout our marriage she has felt I have been controlling, overbearing, not listening to her, she's always struggled with feelings of inadequacy and self esteem issues before me that were exacerbated throughout our marriage by her not dealing with and working through her own internal emotions and stuff. My viewing of porn which devastated her, and I can completely understand this. And then once that came out and I stopped, I didn't work through it with her in therapy and she still harbors resentment and all sorts of pent up emotions we need to work through, and really she needs to work through.

She has never dealt with and worked through her own stuff, and finally now is. At least on the surface level I believe she's making attempts she didn't make before. Actually scheduling her own therapy appointment was massive.

She's dealing with hormonoal stuff, premenopause, kids getting older, starting a new business which is taking a lot of her time, we had family living in our house for 6 months which really put a strain on our relationship and was when things started to spiral more, and it has just been all out an absolutely chaotic 7 months.

Leaving our church was also something she has been struggling with for years and along with my Sis in law who left at the same time, they sort of left together. Strength in numbers I suppose. Yet she still claims to want to follow God and Christ and I'm giving her the space she needs to sort through that while I continue to try to be the rock and glue in our house from a leadership and spiritual standpoint.

She's always felt "secondary" in our marriage and so now she's finally speaking up more, having a voice and standing up for herself which is all great! The pendulum has just been swinging all over the place the last 7 months and is swung far to one side, but I feel it will get back to the middle but with our relationship struggling so much and me not learning about how to manage the PB side of things until only recently, when she asked for the Divorce it was after a very difficult night and I even saw it coming, I could "read the room" with the way she was acting the next day and she said "My heart just gave up." It was after I was asking her about some things for us to work on to connect more which she took as asking her to do all sorts of things and she spiraled very quickly and the entire conversation just took a real bad turn for the worse and I didn't know a lot of the techniques I know now.

As I've learned more about BP I've become acutely aware of the things I do which I believe exacerbate it and am being very conscious at not doing those things. Making sure she isn't tired, emotional, and is in a good space before having any sort of conversation that has to do with our relationship, family stuff and right now basically anything that takes some deeper thought and insights. She just can't go there right now from what I have observed.

So I'm focusing on rebuilding that foundation, having the good times again and easing into conversations that take more time and energy since she is about maxed out right now. She cannot handle multiple issues at once which of course has made it very challenging throughout our marriage because that is how I operate. Just grab the bull by the horns and "get PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm) done." I never struggled with Anxiety, depression, or any emotional type stuff like this until I found out about the EA and then I spiraled and really lost my way for months on end. I wish I had handled it better but I'm really focusing on owning my emotions, controlling my thoughts, words, and interactions with her but it is making things difficult and at times I don't feel like myself.

I hope and pray we can continue to move forward and I will do everything I can but at the end of the day I can only control myself.

One of the hardest things right now is as I've backed off a lot on pursuing her, is to feel the disconnect for me, for her it doesn't seem there. But in my world I feel very disconnected from her, I'm still working through a lot of the pains and hurts I've felt by her actions these last 7 months and am trying to let it go, not dwell on them. I've forgiven her, that's not the issue. I just wonder sometimes does she not realize all the hurtful things she's said and done the last 7 months. I cannot imagine ever treating her like that and expecting her to continue a relationship with me yet I am doing that very thing... So it makes me just pause sometimes, and if anything want to talk with her about it but I know that would result in nothing but spiraling quickly.

It's challenging because as I learn things about relationships, marriage, connecting with your spouse, being intentional, so much seems lost to her, she doesn't want to discuss these things, or work on them together, she wants to just keep going day by day, no planning, no preparation, just attack each day as it comes and I am 100% not this way. So I've just put the responsibility on my shoulders to learn and implement all I'm learning and lead by example, continue to hope and pray for her and pray it helps and she will get to a space eventually where she is willing and ready to sit down and talk about our relationship and how we can implement some things.

We'll see how therapy continues to go, I have to have a mediator with us right now to even approach these conversations where she doesn't feel like I'm asking to do so many things.

Anyhow... I ranted for a bit. Again I appreciate your thoughts and insights, and while I have thought about it before it just doesn't "feel" like it's an affair, she's not acting as if she's having one, or she wants one, or anything along those lines. Beyond the spiraling she has and not being able to have discussions that are a bit more difficult we have a pretty damn good marriage.

I honestly don't think she has it in her to even do that. Her heart is so pure, kind, and loving. I would be floored. Our friends are the same, she isn't ever anywhere or alone she could make that happen, at least I don't think so. If it was, it would be a deal breaker for me. I would not be able to continue forward in our marriage and I honestly don't think she would be able to remain or continue on each day if she was. I think it would be too overwhelming for her.

But I'm sure others have been in my spot before who's spouse was having an affair and they didn't think it was possible.

Thanks man! I'm certainly trying.

This sounds very familiar.  She thinks she isn't good enough when I question even minor things.  From what I read, this is typical "all or nothing" BPD behavior.  My natural inclination is to say, "You are good enough - it is just this little thing that is making things difficult",  but I know she won't hear it.

I hate this too.  When I ask questions, the most common answer I get is, "I don't know".    I feel like if I cannot read her mind, then I am the one at fault.

I am in a better place now.  If I ask something and get "I don't know",  I leave it, and don't ask any further questions.

I ask if I can help.  Once.  Then I leave it be, even when I see her struggling, and there is an obvious fix.    This video is funny and insightful.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg

I feel this too.  It is tiring to go through the emotional calculus to figure out when is the right time to talk.

It is even more difficult when you think you have done that emotional calculus correctly, and you are all prepped for that conversation.   And in the middle of that conversation you realize she isn't ready, and you have to set aside all that work for another time.

But it is what we choose to do, for all the good things a relationship with this wonderful person, who happens to have BPD.

Keep up the good work!

I think it can be really difficult to have a structured conversation about issues in relationships that are difficult, dysfunctional, or just when partners are wired differently and need to find common ground.

So often *any* discontent raised will transform itself in the BPD partner’s mind to: “I’m not good enough,” “I’m not loved,” “I’m doing my best and it’s not enough,” “Nothing I do counts,” etc.

Whereas with someone who is not emotionally volatile, you can easily say something like “It gets frustrating when I have to clean up messes that are not my own,” this type of statement can launch a fury with a BPD partner and the message and potential resolution is thereby lost.

Relationship talks when one partner is more logical and the other one more emotional need to be narrowly focused and brief, in my experience.

Yes..this!

Also, my P keeps reminding me to "leave the door open to a simple solution".

"Hey babe, it sounded like you had something important on your mind earlier...I've got time to chat now or if we are all good we could go (fill in the blank of fun thing)." 

At least in my relationship "mentioning the issue" (as in naming it) is bad...usually. 

So...FFw knows "I was listening and understood it is a big deal...I can listen more...or we can have fun and call it good."

More and more we just call it good and move on.

Make it easy for them to pick healthy...don't enable them to pick unhealthy, although sometimes they will...and that will be frustrating.

Best,

FF

On point here! I'm slowly learning this. Especially because I'm a talker... And like to talk through things. Never been able to effectively do this so I'm relearning. And hopefully someday we can have the deeper dives on topics needing to address. For now... I can focus on what I can do and model it for her and myself.

Thanks!

Great words of wisdom! Thanks so much. How do you best go about with the unknowns? All the "stuff" they say without clarifying and it's so ambiguous you're left wondering WTF? Then next day it's better? I feel like this is partly how we got to this because issues wouldn't be discussed, she would bury and stuff and then it would come out sideways later.

So I'm trying to figure out the middle ground now on all this and that is difficult for sure.

The less you can do with it...think about it..spend time on it, the better.

And yes...I know that likely seems unnatural.  As a fairly organized guy...Naval Aviator and all that...I was not one to allow "loose ends", so my "nature" drove me to try to solve things, understand things...tidy things up.

Here is the thing...BPD has no interest in being tidied up.

So..I've had to learn to be PRAGMATIC.  I used to be more of a "one best way" kinda guy.  Anyway...if something "works" press the I believe button and move on.  If something isn't working or making things worse...drop it and try something else.

Life is much simpler that way...

Best,

FF

Man... You are spot on. Practice and don't do the same things that didn't work.

Thanks again man. I've always just been a get PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm) done kinda guy and do my thing. But that has caused some issues in our marriage so now it's about still being me but with the new insights and knowledge to implement in the relationship.

Doing less is an option and it takes much less work!  lol

Yep, especially if it works. More than anything it's a mindshift. I'm trying to do much more listening, understanding, and focusing on her needs right now. Getting back to an even keel, so far going well.

It's amazing how fast things can change day to day. I'm really trying to notice what works, when is a good time, how much to share, it's tricky at times!

Thanks!

My wife brought up divorce counseling again tonight.  We tried to find a mutual date, but could not find one.

Am I delusional for thinking that divorce counseling might lead to her getting insight into herself? 

All the problems in our relationship she has blamed on me.  She has said I am narcissist, emotionally abusive, autistic, and completely incapable of meeting her needs. I think this is projecting and blaming, but I keep second-guessing myself.  (3 therapist have said I am not, but none have seen me in interactions with my wife - How do I know it isn't me projecting?) I would like an unbiased opinion to determine if those things are true.

My wife has said she wants to protect the physical, mental, emotional, and financial health of our children.   I want that too.
 I am afraid the emotional abuse, that I believe my wife has perpetrated on me, will be transferred to the children without me as a mitigating factor.

My plan to present to the divorce counselor is to do a complete evaluation on both of us. 

Best case scenario:  She owns her part of the problems in our relationship and realizes she can do things to make it better, and does them.  And our marriage is healed.

2nd best scenario:  We both learn our part of the problems to stop them from happening in future relationships, and we keep our problems away from our kids.

3rd best scenario: This assessment provides me with information to protect our children and myself from my wife in the future.   I know “for sure” whether any of the labels my wife has about me are true.  I gain insight into myself that I can use to help recover.  All these things happen even if my wife gains zero insight.

Worst scenario:  The counselor finds me to be emotionally abusive, and I lose my kids. 

I would like opinions and thoughts on any of this.  I could use some insight.

So...if the 4th agrees with the other three..will you be able to drop it?  I'm not asking about your wife..but you.

Have any of the other attempts at therapy resulted in your wife having insight into her part of the relationship?  Serious question...I want to make sure I have this right.

So...listening is good, "participating" and "going along" with unhealthy stuff is dubious. 

Would you let a lost person lead you out of the woods?  How would that turn out

Bottom line:  Listening to "I want a divorce" and expressing concern for her feelings is likely good.  Going to see people to help with divorce...not likely to help.

Best,

FF

Thanks for the great question.

Yes - I am 90% sure I am not what she accuses me of.  But if she tells her therapist that I am a covert narcissist, and if I am telling her my therapist that she is - who is right?  How do you know?  I will drop it if a therapist that sees both of us makes a diagnosis.  This is for me.

OK...so...why when the other three gave you a clearance...didn't you drop it then?


I really hope you can find a therapist that will "rule out" certain things (on your part) and perhaps make a definitive diagnosis. 

I would caution you that what you are asking for sounds more like a trial or "court"...than a secure therapeutic environment where healing can be fostered.



Another word of caution is that even if yet another therapist becomes convinced that you are ok and not (insert list of horrors)...do you really think you wife will be like "Oh my..4 therapists say so...so I guess I will have to drop by deeply held emotional feeling that my husband is a jerk...darn..that was such a productive belief?"

Best,

FF

Do you think she ever questions if she’s a narcissist?

Your answer to that question will reveal a lot.  *)

Thank you for saying this - I have thought that often

Thanks for the thoughtful and stimulating questions.

The other 3 did not see me in context with my wife - that is why I didn't drop it then.  They only saw me individually.  I don't want to be so sure of myself that I won't consider other information.

One thing that keeps nagging me is the failed couples counseling we tried together.  It was a bad situation.

My wife was seeing a counselor individually.  I suggested we see for couples counseling.  (later I learned that this is poor practice, because the counselor builds a rapport with one member of the couple)

During the process of that couples counseling - while trying to do my own research, I had an epiphany that I was being emotionally abused.  I brought this up with the counselor in an individual session and was dismissed immediately.

In hindsight, it feels like when you get to the end of a book with a twist ending, and stuff that was confusing makes sense.  (like Harry Potter & The Prisoner of Azkaban)   I think my wife was saying I was emotionally abusing her - and the counselor say my concerns as triangulation.  I believe the counselor was "armored up" against anything I might say.

I believe my wife is the waif subtype, and tends to play the victim, so all this makes sense. 

I found this quote to be very helpful “Abusers may state, even believe, they are the one being abused. As the victim gains strength and asserts their voice, the abuser may feel threatened, like they are losing the control they held in the victim’s life.”

But how do I know I am not doing the same thing I think she is doing?  (Like Cat Familiar said - the fact I am asking that question is very telling in itself)

Thanks for that point.  I would love a "secure therapeutic environment where healing can be fostered."   I cannot control my spouse and get her to go to that kind of a situation.

She has said she wants to protect our children and go to divorce counseling.  (Let me clarify - I do not want a divorce)  If she is willing to go, I want to use this as an environment where I can get my nagging questions answered for me definitively.  My hope is me standing up for myself in this context, and setting clear boundaries, will change the narrative.

Can you give some examples of questions a divorce counselor will help you get answers to?

I get the vibe you are talking about...but let's take an analogy to an extreme place to make a point.

If your wife needed surgery...would an appointment at a hairdresser across the street from a hospital really help?  There is a possibility she would see the hospital sign, come to her senses and get surgery...that is a possibility.

But is it a reasonable hope/expectation?

Best,

FF

Hello Formflier,

Thank you very much for your insightful thoughts and questions.

The counseling isn't about proving things to my wife.  It is about giving me reassurance.

Here is the letter I sent to the divorce counselor (I apologize for the length):

Hello Counselor,

I apologize for this long outline.  I have concerns about emotional abuse, and I am trying to protect myself and my children.  I hope this isn’t inappropriate.

I.   I love my wife more than anything.  Since I was a child - and we started dating when I was 15, I have tried to do things to make her life easier.  I have a lifetime of positive memories and connections with her.  I have given her everything I can think of in terms of support, even at the expense of my own well being.   In hindsight, I realize many of these behaviors were not helpful, and in fact made things worse.  I believe my behaviors were codependent and enabling.

II.   My goals for divorce counseling


   A.   Protect the physical, mental, emotional, and financial health of our children
       1.   I am afraid the abuse, that I believe my wife has perpetrated on me, will be transferred to the children without me as a mitigating factor. (controlling, blaming, projecting)

  B.   Protect the physical, mental, emotional, and financial health of my wife
       1.   I believe my enabling and codependent behaviors have harmed my wife.  It was not my intent, my intent was to be supportive, but I lacked the wisdom to know what to do.  I am doing my best to break that pattern.  This might feel like abuse to my wife (even though it is not) because as I gain strength and assert my voice, she feels like she is losing the control she once had in my life.

  C.   Protect the physical, mental, emotional, and financial health of my mother-in-law
      1.   My mother-in-law has a limited support system.  The only humans she talks to are our family and a few others.  I have great concerns how things with our marriage will impact her.

  D.   Protect the physical, mental, emotional, and financial health of myself

III.   Preventing unhealthy behaviors from transferring to our children

  A.   My wife has said I might be a narcissist, autistic, and emotionally abusive.  I would like an unbiased opinion to determine if those things are true.
     1.   If I am being harmful to my children or my wife I want to stop immediately

  B.   My wife has said she wants to understand herself.  I believe my wife wants to do everything she can to be an emotionally and mentally healthy person.  I suspect my wife might be emotionally abusing me, has some covert narcissist behaviors, has hoarding behaviors, is a highly sensitive person, has high functioning borderline personality disorder, and maybe other mental health issues.  I would like an unbiased opinion to determine if those things are true.
    1.   If they are true, I sincerely hope that my wife gets the help she needs.
    2.   If they are true, I want to set up systems to protect my children and myself from those behaviors.

  C.   My wife says she values an open mind.  I would like a complete mental health evaluation on both of us, so we can prevent any issues either of us have (separately or together) from negatively impacting our children throughout this process.
    1.   My wife has said she does not want to hurt me.  I believe her when she says that.  I believe my wife has used labels of emotional abuse, autism, and narcissism as weapons of abuse to hurt me unintentionally.  Several counselors have said that those labels do not apply to me.  I still consider it when my wife brings it up, because the counselors haven’t seen me interact with my wife, they only see me and my perspective, and they might be missing something.  (maybe I am completely delusional) I want a comprehensive evaluation of both of us in context to completely remove those weapons from her arsenal of emotional abuse. (if that is what they are)
    2.   If I am doing the same to her - I also want those weapons taken away from me.  My wife has complained of me jumping from diagnosis to diagnosis of her.  I understand this must feel awful for her, and how it makes her feel like I want to “fix” her.  I am sorry I have done things that make her feel this way.  I see her in pain and unhappiness and want to help.  My behaviors have been enabling and not helpful. 

  D.   This is not to “fix” anyone.  No one needs fixing.  This is about each of us understanding ourselves and each other, to protect our children and ourselves.  Knowledge allows us to move forward given the situation.  It is like how understanding our son’s color blindness allows us to better support him, and him to better support himself.

  E.   I will trust a qualified, unbiased, divorce counselor’s judgement on whether to see us individually, together or both.

IV.   Sharing of documentation

  A.   I have concerns about emotional abuse and gaslighting.  Because of this, I have been trying to document things.  I have journaled for a long time - it helps me to organize my thoughts

  B.   It is important to me that an unbiased counselor read all that information.  With some other counselors, that lack of reading has led to poor outcomes, in my opinion.  I felt my concerns were dismissed - because I did not stand up for myself.

  C.   I understand this is a lot of documentation.  Please charge me for the time it takes to go through it.  It is very important to me that you go through it.
     1.   That being said, I understand this could lead to things being one-sided in favor of me.  I do not intend that and want to be fair.  Please read this as my opinion and be heavily skeptical.
     2.   I respect a counselor’s judgement on whether this is appropriate.  That being said, I will be very hurt and disappointed if these documents are not read.
     3.   I will insist these documents be shared as part of any divorce proceedings - if we do not come to consensus.  I think they will do much more good for everyone in this stage of the process. I also believe a counselor looking at them will be cheaper than a lawyer or judge.  (but I am not an expert)

D.   Documents (these are links to several googledocs)
1.   Emotional abuse - a detailed layout of emotional abuse concerns I have
2.   Counselor notes - My wife has accused me of not doing what a counselor suggested.  Multiple times when I have inquired about what specifically that was - she said I was incapable of understanding, or been vague.  I want to know if I am incapable of understanding, or if my wife was hiding her emotions/needs, or if my wife has unrealistic expectations (or both or neither or something else)
3.   The letter - A written letter I sent back in December of 2020.  I was trying to set some clear boundaries and stop emotional abuse.  It failed, it felt like the abuse only got worse.  I did not keep the boundaries I set forward.  This letter was sent with feedback from an counselor through my workplace.  It also includes my wife’s response, and my follow-up to that response.
4.   Acceptance exercise - this is a document we did with with a prior counselor around acceptance.  We both found it helpful at the time
5.   Relationship Biography - of our history and how we got where we are today, from my perspective
6.   Hoarding document
7.   Perpetual problems list - a list of my concerns about our marriage and goals around those issues
8.   Personality quizzes and autism tests that I have taken to better understand myself and how I might be contributing to problems
9.   Appreciation log - this is something I am doing for myself to be mindful of the good things My wife is doing for me and the children
10.   Therapist/Self Notes - essentially this is a journal.  This is the longest document, and it has a great deal of information.  From January 2021 through now
    a)   Old notes -From January 2021 going back to 2014.  It might help establish patterns of unhealthy behavior.