20+ Years Marriage BPD Wife Finally Wants a DIVORCE, What to do?

[formflier]

OK...so...why when the other three gave you a clearance...didn't you drop it then?


I really hope you can find a therapist that will "rule out" certain things (on your part) and perhaps make a definitive diagnosis. 

I would caution you that what you are asking for sounds more like a trial or "court"...than a secure therapeutic environment where healing can be fostered.



Another word of caution is that even if yet another therapist becomes convinced that you are ok and not (insert list of horrors)...do you really think you wife will be like "Oh my..4 therapists say so...so I guess I will have to drop by deeply held emotional feeling that my husband is a jerk...darn..that was such a productive belief?"

Best,

FF

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[Cat Familiar]

Do you think she ever questions if she’s a narcissist?

Your answer to that question will reveal a lot. 

[bugwaterguy]

Do you think she ever questions if she’s a narcissist?

Your answer to that question will reveal a lot. 

Thank you for saying this - I have thought that often

[bugwaterguy]

OK...so...why when the other three gave you a clearance...didn't you drop it then?

I really hope you can find a therapist that will "rule out" certain things (on your part) and perhaps make a definitive diagnosis.

Thanks for the thoughtful and stimulating questions.

The other 3 did not see me in context with my wife - that is why I didn't drop it then.  They only saw me individually.  I don't want to be so sure of myself that I won't consider other information.

One thing that keeps nagging me is the failed couples counseling we tried together.  It was a bad situation.

My wife was seeing a counselor individually.  I suggested we see for couples counseling.  (later I learned that this is poor practice, because the counselor builds a rapport with one member of the couple)

During the process of that couples counseling - while trying to do my own research, I had an epiphany that I was being emotionally abused.  I brought this up with the counselor in an individual session and was dismissed immediately.

In hindsight, it feels like when you get to the end of a book with a twist ending, and stuff that was confusing makes sense.  (like Harry Potter & The Prisoner of Azkaban)   I think my wife was saying I was emotionally abusing her - and the counselor say my concerns as triangulation.  I believe the counselor was "armored up" against anything I might say.

I believe my wife is the waif subtype, and tends to play the victim, so all this makes sense. 

I found this quote to be very helpful “Abusers may state, even believe, they are the one being abused. As the victim gains strength and asserts their voice, the abuser may feel threatened, like they are losing the control they held in the victim’s life.”

But how do I know I am not doing the same thing I think she is doing?  (Like Cat Familiar said - the fact I am asking that question is very telling in itself)

[bugwaterguy]

I would caution you that what you are asking for sounds more like a trial or "court"...than a secure therapeutic environment where healing can be fostered.

Thanks for that point.  I would love a "secure therapeutic environment where healing can be fostered."   I cannot control my spouse and get her to go to that kind of a situation.

She has said she wants to protect our children and go to divorce counseling.  (Let me clarify - I do not want a divorce)  If she is willing to go, I want to use this as an environment where I can get my nagging questions answered for me definitively.  My hope is me standing up for myself in this context, and setting clear boundaries, will change the narrative.

[formflier]

Can you give some examples of questions a divorce counselor will help you get answers to?

I get the vibe you are talking about...but let's take an analogy to an extreme place to make a point.

If your wife needed surgery...would an appointment at a hairdresser across the street from a hospital really help?  There is a possibility she would see the hospital sign, come to her senses and get surgery...that is a possibility.

But is it a reasonable hope/expectation?

Best,

FF

[bugwaterguy]

Hello Formflier,

Thank you very much for your insightful thoughts and questions.

The counseling isn't about proving things to my wife.  It is about giving me reassurance.

Here is the letter I sent to the divorce counselor (I apologize for the length):

Hello Counselor,

I apologize for this long outline.  I have concerns about emotional abuse, and I am trying to protect myself and my children.  I hope this isn’t inappropriate.

I.   I love my wife more than anything.  Since I was a child - and we started dating when I was 15, I have tried to do things to make her life easier.  I have a lifetime of positive memories and connections with her.  I have given her everything I can think of in terms of support, even at the expense of my own well being.   In hindsight, I realize many of these behaviors were not helpful, and in fact made things worse.  I believe my behaviors were codependent and enabling.

II.   My goals for divorce counseling


   A.   Protect the physical, mental, emotional, and financial health of our children
       1.   I am afraid the abuse, that I believe my wife has perpetrated on me, will be transferred to the children without me as a mitigating factor. (controlling, blaming, projecting)

  B.   Protect the physical, mental, emotional, and financial health of my wife
       1.   I believe my enabling and codependent behaviors have harmed my wife.  It was not my intent, my intent was to be supportive, but I lacked the wisdom to know what to do.  I am doing my best to break that pattern.  This might feel like abuse to my wife (even though it is not) because as I gain strength and assert my voice, she feels like she is losing the control she once had in my life.

  C.   Protect the physical, mental, emotional, and financial health of my mother-in-law
      1.   My mother-in-law has a limited support system.  The only humans she talks to are our family and a few others.  I have great concerns how things with our marriage will impact her.

  D.   Protect the physical, mental, emotional, and financial health of myself

III.   Preventing unhealthy behaviors from transferring to our children

  A.   My wife has said I might be a narcissist, autistic, and emotionally abusive.  I would like an unbiased opinion to determine if those things are true.
     1.   If I am being harmful to my children or my wife I want to stop immediately

  B.   My wife has said she wants to understand herself.  I believe my wife wants to do everything she can to be an emotionally and mentally healthy person.  I suspect my wife might be emotionally abusing me, has some covert narcissist behaviors, has hoarding behaviors, is a highly sensitive person, has high functioning borderline personality disorder, and maybe other mental health issues.  I would like an unbiased opinion to determine if those things are true.
    1.   If they are true, I sincerely hope that my wife gets the help she needs.
    2.   If they are true, I want to set up systems to protect my children and myself from those behaviors.

  C.   My wife says she values an open mind.  I would like a complete mental health evaluation on both of us, so we can prevent any issues either of us have (separately or together) from negatively impacting our children throughout this process.
    1.   My wife has said she does not want to hurt me.  I believe her when she says that.  I believe my wife has used labels of emotional abuse, autism, and narcissism as weapons of abuse to hurt me unintentionally.  Several counselors have said that those labels do not apply to me.  I still consider it when my wife brings it up, because the counselors haven’t seen me interact with my wife, they only see me and my perspective, and they might be missing something.  (maybe I am completely delusional) I want a comprehensive evaluation of both of us in context to completely remove those weapons from her arsenal of emotional abuse. (if that is what they are)
    2.   If I am doing the same to her - I also want those weapons taken away from me.  My wife has complained of me jumping from diagnosis to diagnosis of her.  I understand this must feel awful for her, and how it makes her feel like I want to “fix” her.  I am sorry I have done things that make her feel this way.  I see her in pain and unhappiness and want to help.  My behaviors have been enabling and not helpful. 

  D.   This is not to “fix” anyone.  No one needs fixing.  This is about each of us understanding ourselves and each other, to protect our children and ourselves.  Knowledge allows us to move forward given the situation.  It is like how understanding our son’s color blindness allows us to better support him, and him to better support himself.

  E.   I will trust a qualified, unbiased, divorce counselor’s judgement on whether to see us individually, together or both.

IV.   Sharing of documentation

  A.   I have concerns about emotional abuse and gaslighting.  Because of this, I have been trying to document things.  I have journaled for a long time - it helps me to organize my thoughts

  B.   It is important to me that an unbiased counselor read all that information.  With some other counselors, that lack of reading has led to poor outcomes, in my opinion.  I felt my concerns were dismissed - because I did not stand up for myself.

  C.   I understand this is a lot of documentation.  Please charge me for the time it takes to go through it.  It is very important to me that you go through it.
     1.   That being said, I understand this could lead to things being one-sided in favor of me.  I do not intend that and want to be fair.  Please read this as my opinion and be heavily skeptical.
     2.   I respect a counselor’s judgement on whether this is appropriate.  That being said, I will be very hurt and disappointed if these documents are not read.
     3.   I will insist these documents be shared as part of any divorce proceedings - if we do not come to consensus.  I think they will do much more good for everyone in this stage of the process. I also believe a counselor looking at them will be cheaper than a lawyer or judge.  (but I am not an expert)

D.   Documents (these are links to several googledocs)
1.   Emotional abuse - a detailed layout of emotional abuse concerns I have
2.   Counselor notes - My wife has accused me of not doing what a counselor suggested.  Multiple times when I have inquired about what specifically that was - she said I was incapable of understanding, or been vague.  I want to know if I am incapable of understanding, or if my wife was hiding her emotions/needs, or if my wife has unrealistic expectations (or both or neither or something else)
3.   The letter - A written letter I sent back in December of 2020.  I was trying to set some clear boundaries and stop emotional abuse.  It failed, it felt like the abuse only got worse.  I did not keep the boundaries I set forward.  This letter was sent with feedback from an counselor through my workplace.  It also includes my wife’s response, and my follow-up to that response.
4.   Acceptance exercise - this is a document we did with with a prior counselor around acceptance.  We both found it helpful at the time
5.   Relationship Biography - of our history and how we got where we are today, from my perspective
6.   Hoarding document
7.   Perpetual problems list - a list of my concerns about our marriage and goals around those issues
8.   Personality quizzes and autism tests that I have taken to better understand myself and how I might be contributing to problems
9.   Appreciation log - this is something I am doing for myself to be mindful of the good things My wife is doing for me and the children
10.   Therapist/Self Notes - essentially this is a journal.  This is the longest document, and it has a great deal of information.  From January 2021 through now
    a)   Old notes -From January 2021 going back to 2014.  It might help establish patterns of unhealthy behavior.