BPDFamily.com

For brevity sake, I'll just post the update here, but feel free to ask or read my other posts for more. Basically, my wife left back to her family and told me it was for a few weeks to "calm down," and give me time to work on myself (main complaint being that I didn't have new enough shirts or take her out to dinner enough). Turns out that during those 2 weeks, while I tried everything to save our marriage, she was wooing some random guy and moved in with him literally within 24 hours of raging at and kicking me to the curb after I flew halfway across the country to meet her for dinner, after which she was supposed to fly back home to me. And she never felt the need to tell me any of this. So this entire time she's been saying "why aren't you sending me flowers," "maybe we will figure this out," "why aren't you chasing me," etc, this has been going on. I've caught her in at least 2 other relatively major lies this week. And she acts like everything is dandy and I shouldn't be upset.

I never, ever thought she would do this to me. I was her "rock," her soulmate, her husband and she "loved me." The exact same things she is saying to this random new guy. I have messages to prove it as she left our mutual laptop for me and the messages synced to it.

I don't really know what else to say right now, other than I feel so betrayed and cheated and just disgusted that anyone could act like this to someone they "love." I know it's somewhat textbook for BPD, but after all the years of marriage, me "saving" her from her "abusive" family and ex boyfriend (a story which I now doubt), standing by her after she lost job after job, friend after friend, suicide attempt after suicide attempt, this is how much I meant to her, not even enough to tell me the truth.

Thank you for reading this venting session, and be careful out there everyone.

Buddy, I'm sorry to read this. White then black. Now you're her abusive ex-husband and he's her savior. Don't worry, it won't be long before he's her abusive ex-boyfriend and she's onto the next well-meaning target.

Don't take it personally. She's following a pattern and has to do this for the rest of her life.

You on the other hand have control over your own destiny.

I've also heard "you never send me f****** flowers you a******!"

Not just for Valentine's Day, but this one pops up every month or so year-round. And if/when I do send flowers, it's "you only sent them because I told you to".

This also happens with "you never hug me" and when I do hug, "you don't even mean it".

As best I can tell, flowers are some kind of idealized symbol that stick in your mind and it's an easy trope to use in an argument. It's a quick-access counterpoint for her to throw into any situation when she is disregulated. Having a bad day? Blame it on no flowers. Caught lying? Blame it on no flowers. And then I start trying to think of the last time I sent flowers, distracting me from the situation at hand.

And it's an easy one to quickly discount also - "you sent me flowers but you didn't mean it" or "you sent me flowers as an admission that you are GUILTY". It can be twisted many ways.

So the IDEAL scenario would be to wait exactly the perfect amount of time after she's screamed at me about flowers, so it's spontaneous and not "because she told me to". And also it can't be after any argument, because then they are just "apology flowers". See where I'm going with this? Walking on eggshells... waiting and watching the clock and running a spreadsheet to calculate the perfect time to send flowers.

And surprise... it's never the right time.

In a normal relationship, flowers are a happy thing that can cheer someone up, but for the BPD, they have the opposite effect. (this goes for many things, not just flowers)

ThanksForPlaying, same experience: There's no right answer or action. I ended up being silent.

For pwBPD: I fight, therefore I am.

Yup. You are 100% right. And I can see things more clearly now, how I fit into this same role until I became too much of a burden/knew too much about her and her history, then she threw me away to find someone more naïve and easier to manipulate. It confirms my worst fears but also helps in someway to detach and realize it's not personal. Thank you, you put it into words better than I could.

Are you sure we aren't talking about the same BPD? ;) This has happened to me SO many times, with flowers, jewelry, gifts, hugs, smiles, literally anything and everything. It's amazing how skilled she is at manipulating and crazy making and gaslighting, and I don't think she does it on purpose even, which makes it even eerier and scarier.

Yup, and don't forget that the silence is also wrong. Why aren't you talking? Are you ignoring me? You're being emotionally unavailable! Etc.

Oof, I forgot about that. Big oof.

It is often said that BPD is a disorder where abandonment fears are the issue.  Yet the very behaviors they exhibit typically drive a reasonably normal person away.  It's almost a self-fulfilling pattern.  What they fear, they cause.

Also, another common behavior is that many quickly seek out the next relationship.  Her recent behavior, too, is typical, like trying to keep you in reserve, simmering on a stove's back burner.

When you first arrived, you read a consistent message here.  We explained why she behaved that way, we described how to have better interpersonal boundaries and appropriate strategies (BIFF rather than JADE), that she was unlikely to respond well, and what the likely outcome would be.

In other words, we've walked in your shoes, we've "been there, done that".  Don't kick yourself for trying so hard and failing, so many of us tried and failed too.  Accept this, learn from this and Move On with your life.

My life has been a big oof for the last 6 years, I feel you my friend haha

I think you summed it up very well. The tragedy is how she can't see it. Everyone in her life keeps telling her now, her family, me, my family, that this is a cycle and she needs help. She's just blind to it. Super frustrating. Her mom always told her, and she always told me, that I would abandon and divorce her one day. I never thought that would happen, no matter what, but I guess I should have listened. I also never thought this would happen and didn't know BPD or any PD existed at the time. They should teach this stuff in schools.

I do feel like I've been relegated to the back burner. It feels like I'm a character now from a previous season in her life, that she brings in every now and then for guest appearances, but is not a regular in her "show" any more. It's very bizarre.

The consistent message here has been a life saver. By preparing in advance what her reactions and next moves were likely to be, it's helped soften the blow of some very hurtful, manipulative, and abusive behavior.

I have to be the mature, healthy one who lives in reality and accepts what she is, what this is that I'm dealing with, and that this is a real, serious mental illness that will not get better unless she voluntarily undergoes years of proper therapy, and even then it's no guarantee. Super frustrating, but I can't let it be my downfall as well.

Helps so much to hear from everyone who has been there, done that. Sometimes you all are the only people who truly understand how it is to be in my shoes.

She's back at it again today, texting me from her work as if nothing happened, asking if I'm "feeling better" from the other day (aka if I'm ready to play nice again and not hold her accountable), complaining about how she has to work so much because divorce lawyers are expensive, etc etc. I've found that as long as I keep the conversation focused on her and how much of a victim she is, she stays calm, and right now my goal is just to keep her calm through the divorce. After that, who knows, but my conflicted is gathering steam towards detaching.

Or:
- You never say 'I love you' anymore (see other postings of me)
- You are not writing me poems anymore (I calculated that it is not true)
- You are texting less than you used to ( I counted the average number of whatsapp messages I send her. The average is the same - I know, the length we would go... :) )
- You do not send me songs anymore (That might be less indeed)
- We used to call everyday, but you do not need that anymore (still call everyday, but according o her, because I have to)
- You used to massage me every day, but now you think I'm disgusting (I still do that because I have no life :) )

The list goes on and on.

haha that is a list that I can check off every box!

I especially recognize the "you never do x, y, z anymore."

"Yes I do, see example 1, 2, and 3."

"Yeah but now you do it because you HAVE to."

No way to win that one. This is some crazy 3D chess for sure.

I guess the upside to your situation is that she’s not keeping you in perpetual limbo, recycle after recycle.

Wishing that they’d have self awareness is about on the same level as buying a lottery ticket, and planning on how you will spend that $10 million. I guess it happens sometimes.

Brilliantly said especially about the lotto analogy.I think in her mind she is keeping me in limbo, until she’s ready to recycle me. I can tell she thinks I’m still fooled, on the hook, etc, and when I say anything that starts to suggest I’m not, she panics. She hasn’t changed one bit. Thankfully, I have. I still have some hope for her and us, but it’s a becoming lotto odds instead of realistic ones like it used to be.

Brilliantly said especially about the lotto analogy

That's a tough road, and I'm sorry brother.

It's said that feelings of abandonment are a trait of BPD. That's what we see, but there's an underlying emotion: my feelings are worthless and don't matter; therefore, I'm worthless and don't matter. thus innocuous (to others) invalidations trigger the core wound: I'm unworthy of being loved. And thus it triggers anger, or the discard.

Before kids, before our only recycle (which was 100% my choice), she said, "if you loved me, you'd fight for me!" After she broke up with me.

Yup. This really rings true for me too. Thank you for your sympathy. I know you get it. After leaving, blocking me, threatening me, filing for divorce, last week I got the: This is so hurtful, I thought you’d chase me, you could have sent me flowers. And she’s calling almost every day now basically begging me to chase her (“now you have a chance to show me what you really want,” etc etc).

I reminded her that she told me not to ever speak to her again except about legal divorce issues, blocked me, called the police on me for no reason, etc. Her response? “I don’t remember that, obviously I don’t feel like that right now as I’m calling you, you’re my husband and I care about how you’re doing.”

What. Does. She. Want.

There's a whole dynamic with a possible divorce, and the communication tools in the lessons at the top of the board will be helpful. This isn't the time for recriminations, but cold logic if you're going to go through divorce which is "adversarial by definition" quoth my therapist.

Armchair advice: don't forget to value yourself. She's an independent entity, free to make her own choices. So are you.

Your spouse is alternating between a typical never ending dysfunctional push-pull dance.  No answer can satisfy both the push and the pull.  What you're experiencing reminds me of Doctor Doolittle's impossible PushMe-PullYou in the original movie with Rex Harrison.

Similar illustrations are of an endless roller coaster.  Periodically you can get off, and you feel you better get off, but there is also an impulse to stay on and experience the huge ups and downs again.

Thanks, Turkish. I’ll review the tools some more. It’s like she wants to divorce, but she doesn’t want it to be uncomfortable or unpleasant for her, and she wants my help divorcing her “meanie” ex-husband (which is also me), and wants my sympathy that her lawyer is “mean.”‘it’s very very very odd.

You are right she can make her own choices and I can too. I have to really think about what I want and need for my sanity and future.

Thank you.

Yeah I think you’re right. The thing is that now, because she’s not physically here, it’s like I get to see the behavior under a microscope, because I don’t see the normal every day stuff with her, just the dysfunctional reaching out. Good analogy from Dr Doolittle.

I’m at an odd place in my own journey where things are so much better and calmer without her, but then I do miss her, but when she contacts me it’s like someone with her voice, phone number, some of her memories, but not the her I remember.

You’ve freed yourself from the FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) and now you can see clearly who you’re dealing with. It’s sad and disappointing, but much better to confront the truth than to hang your hopes on a fantasy.

Very true. It feels like that point in a movie when it’s been revealed in a plot twist that someone was a spy/traitor/alien all along. I’m pretty sure she doesn’t know that I’ve learned what’s going, so she’s still behaving as if nothing has changed, but it just seems odd to me. It’s like I’ve cracked the code and can see who she really is now. It’s so sad, and I miss who I thought she was, but also it’s almost like I’m living in the twilight zone, like half of me says “thank heavens she’s back!” and the other half says “she was a snake all along - run!” Hence, the conflicted board haha

Once you’ve seen her true colors, you cannot not see it.

Yup. And yet still I want to forgive her and take her back and try again. Thankfully, I know that’s not healthy and I’m not giving in. If someone described my situation to me as if it was someone else, I would tell them to run, run, and run some more. I’m not sure why I still have that part of myself that wants to pick up where I left off with her. I guess it’s part FOG, part something to be explored in therapy, and maybe I will always have that part of me.

At least there is a moral that kicks in during some of those movies.

haha I’m sure so many of us wish that there would have been a moral and feel good conclusion to our stories as well. I mean I guess there is a moral it’s just deeply painful and scarring for us

This is where you need to consider your boundaries. Boundaries aren't something we impose on someone else. A boundary isn't saying to her " I don't want you to cheat or lie" - that is on her. The boundary is  "do I want to be in a relationship where I am treated like this?" The boundary is about what will you do if you find out your spouse is lying and cheating.

Sure you have feelings, we want what we want, but we have choices because choices have consequences in the real world. Why not cheat? I mean, just because we are married doesn't mean we never will find someone else attractive. If people  don't cheat, it's because it's a part of their value system and they value their relationship more than the fleeting attraction. If someone doesn't lie, it's because it's against their values and it hurts others. Is this the kind of relationship you value? If so, this isn't what you are going to have with this person.

It's not just about doing what one wants, it's about what we value more.

I do know of some couples who have repaired a marriage after infidelity, but it takes honest remorse and genuine effort on both their parts to go through counseling and work at repairing the circumstances that led to that, as well as work on the part of the spouse who was cheated on.

Remorse isn't temporary "sorry until you take me back" then back to the same behavior . It's also not acting as if nothing happened or lying about it.

Those are very good points, Notwendy. From day 1, we’ve always had a clear boundary that if one of us cheats, it’s over. That’s something that’s very important to me. Our deal was that we could and would work through anything, except cheating. Even now, when she calls me and I tell her I’m upset she left, she reminds me over and over “I never cheated on you.” Aka cheating was our deal breaker and I didn’t do it so take me back.

I could have cheated on her plenty. Never did, because I valued the relationship and honesty more.

I live by my values, and I’m a very disciplined person. Usually, I have no problem enforcing my boundaries.

I guess this is where the rubber meets the road. I have no choice but to consider if I will stand firm or cave.

Do you think I should confront her about what I know and see what she says? Will that help anything?
Guessing no but I would value some insight and wisdom.

My only parallel experience to lying like this is with my BPD mother. We don't imagine our mothers lying to us, I mean motherhood is such a valued relationship in our cultures- we assume that our mothers are being truthful.

I recall the moment I realized that she lies to me. Shock, disbelief, and then, yes, realizing this is what she does. Not just one time. A lot.

You know, people do  hurtful things sometimes, maybe on purpose, maybe not. But if we want to repair a relationship, it starts with a sincere apology and this is one thing my BPD mother isn't able to do. I think the process of denial and projection is strong, and perhaps admitting something causes too much shame? What she tends to do is to re-write history- it didn't happen, and if to her, it didn't happen, she expects us to also go along with that. Like a dry erase board.

I don't think resentment is helpful though. I think it's more about what we call radical acceptance. If someone lies, or cheats, we need to determine how we respond to that. Once I realized the extent of my mother's lying, that influenced how I saw the relationship. I can't trust her. I don't know if what she tells me is true or not. I wish I could have that kind of trust, but if she lies, then, I can't trust her. D

If you know your wife cheated, and she's telling you, or pretending she didn't- then I don't think confronting her is going to change that for you. If cheating is your boundary, then that's what it is. She may act like you are doing something to her by acting on your boundary, but it's not as much about her as you. If your boundary is to not be in a relationship with someone who cheats, then your actions are clear to you.

Resenting her, making her wrong, that won't help you. You might even feel sorry for her that she feels she has to do this, but it's really more about what you wish to tolerate and what not.

Thanks Notwendy,

That’s very helpful and it’s actually helpful that your relationship is with your mom, because I wouldn’t tolerate my wife’s behavior from anyone else in my life, why should she get a free pass just because she’s her?

You’ve given me a lot to think about. I think I have to accept this is who she really is and probably always will be unless she undergoes years of intense therapy, and I can’t see her doing that at present.

It’s just such a disappointing and sad feeling. I poured so much love into her and our relationship and now I can see she just didn’t, or more accurately couldn’t, ever care about me or our marriage in the same way I did.

It hurts, it’s lonely, but it’s reality.

 I think there's grief with acceptance of the situation. These are not easy choices.

You are correct and that’s well said. Not easy choices at all, and inaction is also a choice, one that I don’t think I can afford to make for too much longer. Thank you for all your wisdom and help.