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How do I get her to contribute her fair share? I feel like I do everything. All cooking and cleaning. All Pet care. All repairs and maintenance. I get up everyday and make both of our lunches get coffee ready and everything else. I do all outside work. Sometimes she does laundry but that is getting less frequent.

When I ask for help it triggers her and she stonewalls. As if I'm the bad one.

If she is not going to contribute labor (I'm sorry but I think marriage is equally about division of labor as it is love) then why should we get equal proceeds from the marriage. If she doesn't want to do anything I feel I should get to make most of the decisions, including what disposable income is spent on and all major decision.

Tire of being a butler.

I feel your pain and I don't have any answers for you since I'm going through the same dilemma!  My favorite part is that my uBPDw thinks she does EVERYTHING around the house and I do NOTHING.  Almost comical, but mostly irritating. 

Is it bpd or just laziness?

Would you describe her as (a) being appreciative or (b) not being appreciative of your hard work?

Sometimes she is appreciative. She will say "thanks for doing everything." But honestly at this point the thank you means nothing. I feel like a servant, or worse. If I ask for help she bolts for the bedroom and shuts down, like clockwork. I don't understand how and decent person can do behave like this.

This all sounds very familiar. I imagine workload sharing is an issue for most couples, but the BPD element makes it all the harder: a conversation about scheduling or dishwashing, say, appears straightforward and unemotional for me but for my husband is fraught with negative emotion, his self-image, shame, fear, etc.

My husband and I were somewhat successful at working with a marriage therapist to come to agreements on equal sharing of some aspects like school drop-off and pick-up and weekday dinners. In our case, it requires counting and keeping track, which I'd always heard was detrimental to a relationship. Without the therapist, I'm not sure we'd have been able to arrive at this on our own. Without the counting to keep to our agreement, I'm sure the load would slowly creep to me.

My husband not infrequently wants to break the arrangement when "important things come up" and he expects me to help him out. The therapist told me to be flexible if I am able but only agree to trades. So if my husband says, "I really need you to take the kids to school on Tuesday [his day to take them]," I'll say "okay, I can do that if you take them on Friday [my day]." I get accused of being "contractual" for this, but have learned to live with this.

The therapist also encouraged me to give lots of positive feedback to my husband like, "Thanks! Because you picked up the kids today I was able to go on a walk after work and that was just what I needed!"  

How do you avoid resentment? I'm just a ball of resentment. Truth is I don't wanna do any of this stuff either, but somebody has to do it. I consider this behavior to be very selfish. Must be nice.

I think if you’re going to get resentful — is it possible these chores are just a validation of an underlying issue in your relationship where you feel the emotional side of things are handled with the same approach?  I think the therapist route may be beneficial. Is it really about the chores or your broader “life?”

I feel for you. I am very sorry you are going through this. I too do all these things, receive  little to nothing in return. Told me gifting is ‘overly tried and shallow’ henceforth why I don’t receive any gifts. Hates the flowers I gave etc. However I do believe a lot of this is just dichotomous thinking etc. Anyway, I am responding as I am curious of like myself you signed on as ‘caretaker’? We do this don’t we? Codependency may also be part of it idk. I’m having a ‘row’ of you will with my partner right now. Oh the rollercoaster and dramatic mess that was made. I finally ate crow tonight and said ‘alright mercy, it’s all my fault.yell, tell me off whatever you need to do just please let us move forward toward peace’ in truth I’m pissed as I don’t get to do my routine: make lunches, dinner, etc… I doubt I’m helping you much just I have learned not to expect it. I know she loves me and does care and appreciated gifts, etc. It’s just par for the course when choosing a relationship with a borderline I believe. We have to love ourselves no matter what and in tending to that job we do ourselves a great service. In one month since I came back after our first actual ‘break’ she is : pregnant, not pregnant, didn’t take the out of state job, took the out of state job, got some cosmetic surgery thing she didn’t need as she is very beautiful, lied about it , gaslighted, coerced, manipulated, etc, etc..honestly I wish I was just complaining about how ungrateful she was being.. please don’t misunderstand what I mean by this. Lack of acknowledgment sucks I know my friend. I don’t know your story but I know I signed up for this mess which led me to this place to commiserate with the rest of us who signed up for this…. Again, I doubt I helped but love yourself first and foremost. I’ll probably be making my ‘toddler/adult child’ their lunch tomorrow. I’ll be thinking of you. Hang in there…
( I do love my Bpd gf very much. I always forgive her as I know she does love me. Just has a real messed up inability to express it over her disgust for herself)

This is crazy because I have, what I feel is, the exact opposite issue.  We had a major fight last night about this very thing.  She claims that she is the only one who gets things done and I do nothing except, get this, go to work to get a paycheck and take the kids to and from pre-school and daycare.  She then asked me to tell her what else I do to contribute to the marriage.  I had finally reached a breaking point, sort of.  I tried some of the techniques mentioned on this site to absolutely no avail.  She took them as admission of guilt in everything she is feeling.  In this particular case I restated the question so she would know I was listening.  Then I answered by saying, right now, there really isn't anything else that I do.  Then I asked if I could say how I feel about it.  I continued with stating that I feel like I only have 35-40 min a day to work on anything that needs to be done at home.  (The rest of what I'm about to say I couldn't work up the courage to say to her because I knew she would take to mean something completely different that what I was actually meaning just like she did with this one statement that I did make) That 35-40 min comes between getting off work and picking up the kids.  No one will ever guess what she took that to mean! (sarcasm) Apparently that meant I was unhappy that I only have 30 min a day to myself and I feel that what I have to do for the kids is too much on me.  Those words were never even in my thoughts.  The truth is if I don't handle the kids then she will complain about how she never has anytime for herself.  She will completely self-destruct from being overwhelmed about dealing with the kids.  And I'm talking about while we are in the same room.  She isn't even watching them on her own.  I avoid having to ask her to watch the kids on her own because I know it'll overwhelm her and I'll hear her complain about having to do it for weeks.  As a result of doing this though I am unable to do things around the house and she in turn complains about that as well.  Last saturday I spent the whole day from 8 until 4:30 upstairs in the playroom with the kids while she laid on the couch to rest the entire time.  If that is what she wants to do I have zero problem with it.  I literally complain about nothing to her, ever.  But if me or one of the boys dare come out of that room we aren't respecting the fact that she is tired and needs to rest and she gets mad about that.  Heaven forbid she do her resting in the bedroom where we can still live our lives while she is doing her thing.  Apparently this turned into a rant for me, my apologies.  I just found it interesting that we can have completely opposite problems stemming from the exact same thing.

Hmmm. I don't relate. My GF actually overcompensates on doing chores when she is in my house. I sometimes have to say she needs to stop. As if she has no other way of proving her love, other than keeping my house clean. Afterwards she does complains that she did not understand why she did it, and that she could have used the time to clean her own house.

It's good to vent don't apologize. My whole post was a vent. My reply to her in this situation would be "they are your kids too, you need to watch them on your own sometimes." I'm not the most flexible in these situations. Biggest thing you'll see with me is I'm not interested in why she doesn't help out. I just want to get her to do it.

Important topic to bring up, fisher101.

I think I see you recognizing that you feel some... resentment? about how things are divided right now. Is that accurate? And a sense of "if I don't do it, it won't get done"?

"Making"/"getting" a pwBPD to do something is a challenge (understatement of the year). If any of us had figured that out, we wouldn't be here.

So we can't "make" them "do their fair share". OK.

Does it then follow that we *have to* do "their stuff" for them?

...

As I read your list of what you do, and I imagine you started doing much of it out of love, I see opportunities for you to "hand back" to her stuff that can be hers.

I probably wouldn't "hand back" everything that ought to be hers, at once. If it were me, I'd start with *one* area, and instead of announcing "I'm not doing X for you any more, so you HAVE TO DO IT" -- I'd approach it a little more obliquely.

Let's take lunch, for example.

My guess is, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you make her lunch too, perhaps out of love, and perhaps also out of efficiency -- like, you already have the lunch stuff out, so you may as well make hers too?

What if that was the area in which you started to not take on more than your own stuff?

And what if it was ultimately *more* loving to your W, to allow her an area in her life to step up and take responsibility for herself?

It might look like:

"Babe, just wanted you to know that today I am able to make my lunch... Do you want me to leave the stuff out for you to make yours, or do you want me to put it away?" (again, just an idea of not telling her what to do, more obliquely announcing YOUR choices).

It might also look like:

"Hey hon, I'm in a rush this morning... I think I remember seeing some leftovers in the fridge that you can pack for your lunch..."

...

To me, this could be a win-win. If she's truly incapable of making her own lunch, then this new approach will reveal that, and you will know you have some bigger problems in your life than you thought. An adult who can't make lunch has serious challenges.

If she is capable of making her own lunch, though, then by you calmly stepping back from that task, you are essentially telegraphing to her that you believe she is a capable woman. When we stop "doing the work" for pwBPD, there is potential for things to go better as we allow them to solve their own problems in life. Much conflict in BPD relationships comes from one partner "overfunctioning" for the other. One partner feels resentment at taking on more than their fair share, and the other BPD partner gets tacit messages of "you can't do it".

Can we let them "fail" a few times as they learn to take responsibility in one area of life? Important question, and why I'm suggesting starting with her dealing with her own lunch (a safer scale on which to practice) versus "doing first aid" or something with bigger consequences.

Curious to hear your thoughts on passing back some tasks to her, one at a time, starting with smaller ones, and letting her own the outcomes.

Isn't that the whole dilemma with BPD though? Reality vs emotion?  The problem is not that she can't watch them on her own, she is perfectly capable, and does so when I need her to.  The problem is her perception of the situation.  She will have a two-fold complaint about it.  One, that she did it so that I could do something else, resulting in me having time for myself at her expense. Second, how hard is for her because of having to constantly stay right on top of them, a result of her being a helicopter parent.  To make a suggestion that she change the way she parents in order to make it easier to handle is to dismiss her feelings about how she wants to parent.  Fine, no issue with that, except that if you are choosing to parent the way you want to then don't complain about the way you parent.  It's your choice, do it or don't.  No one gets to have their cake and eat it too.  But that's BPD isn't it.  My largest hurdle right now is that BPD does not remove a person's accountability for their actions nor their responsibility for their future.  I could be wrong, but I feel that last statement is the connection in both of our mindsets

The more you do for them, the less they will do for themselves.  red-flag

Equal participation in chores was a major bone of contention in my relationship. My husband is retired and spends all day pursuing his own interests. When he does a task, like taking garbage to the dump, it’s monumental because of the BPD black and white thinking. “I spent all day going to the dump,” when in fact, it was only an hour, more or less.

Some years ago, the only things he did were lawn mowing, pool maintenance, and going to the dump every three weeks or so. But in his mind, he was constantly working.

Meanwhile I was taking care of the animals (horses, goats, cats) which was fine, because having them is my choice; repairing things in the house and on the property (he knows nothing about carpentry, electrical, plumbing); cleaning said house and property; taking care of gardens and orchard; cooking meals.

After hours fixing a water leak or a broken fence line, I’d come into the house, dirty head to toe, and he’d ask me, “What’s for dinner?”

Resent? I’d be f*ing furious! As if he couldn’t even lend a helping hand or think about making something himself! And what I cooked for him was often unappreciated because it was vegetarian. “I need real food,” I remember him saying.   :cursing:

Problem solved sometime later when we started getting meal kits. I’ve been a vegetarian most of my life, other than eating fish occasionally, but I was willing to eat some meat if it was organic. But I know nothing about cooking meat.

So we started getting these organic meal kits. Soon he started taking over the cooking because I was clueless about cooking the meat, which was fine with me. (I really wasn’t that clueless.)

Over time it evolved to him doing dinner preparation six nights and week, and me doing all the cleanup. I cook one night a week and he “cleans” to some extent.

He makes a huge mess when he cooks. I don’t. However it’s worthwhile for me to do the cleaning on two fronts: I get alone time to listen to podcasts and I’m very particular about keeping things cleaned up to my standards.

Over time, he’s become proud of how well he cooks, and he really does a good job. So it’s given him some self worth and he has been willing to tackle other tasks that he self initiates.

WIN/WIN.  :wee:

I think in this case flexibility is key as long as you don't let the routing get altered for too long. I personally have a hard time giving feedback like that to other adults for things that I feel they should do anyway.

Like your husband I gotta have meat and I'm super messy. But I'm usually cleaning it up myself 9 time outta 10 so it doesn't matter. Seem like in your case and his you guys want things done a certain way so your arrangement seems to work.

In our case it's like I drop a nuclear bomb if I mention that I feel she isn't doing her fair share. So I keep quiet until I explode. I feel like I'm being taken advantage of here. I grew up in a family where my mom would say things like "no work no eat" and she more or less meant it so it's hard for me to accept someone willfully using me like this.

The more I think about, I have this recurring thought that maybe, just maybe pwBPD are just not great people in most cases. I'm becoming convinced that she just doesn't feel guilt or empathy, just shame, but in a selfish way where she is worried that other people will look down her. I really doubt whether she ever feels bad about anything she does to others.

I see. Well hey mine can complain all she wants if she'd just do something.

There is an overriding them that I see on here that pwBPD aren't really responsible/accountable because they can't help it. I disagree with with this.

Might not be a bad idea.

She is capable but choses not to make her own lunch. I'm not sure why I do it...possibly at this point it is to prevent accusations that I only think of myself and that I'm selfish.

Another example. We got a cat a while back. She wanted it, I didn't really want the cat. But quickly stopped emptying litter boxes until it smelled like you know what in here. So now I do it. In this way I feel I have to do "her stuff" or we'll have sanitation issues. I think the one who wanted the cat should be doing this.

Another angle...I'm what you'd call, for better or worse, a transactional person. So I look at this situation, one-sided as it is, as if there is a debt accruing..and it'll never be even until I get as long of a break from everything as she's had.

At this point though I'd just settle for continuing to do most of the work, but "getting" the most out of everything (being in charge I guess you could call it). I mean I feel that equity has been earned.

I surely know all about resentment! It is corrosive. What I'm trying to do now is listen to myself--when I start sensing resentment building in me it is a sign I need to so something differently (even if it makes my husband upset).

Example from this morning: My husband has been asking to use my office for his own work when I'm not there. My natural tendency is to want to oblige and help him out, but when I look more closely I see that I will come to resent this. (My office is my own space and at times a refuge from my husband. I keep my BDP books there. Plus I highly doubt my employer would want someone else using my office, which is not a home office.) So I told my husband no. Of course, he fights back on this, but I (so far!) remain calm and steady and repeat, "I'm sorry, but I don't feel comfortable with you using my office."

fisher101, you mention wanting the power to make decisions. I wonder if this is more about shared (or not shared) decision-making more than home workload?

I'd say "no" in your case too. You're reasoning is sound.

For me it is really about work and fairness. I know for some people it isn't really about what they say it is about. But for me it is.

As far as the decisions go, I feel like if I'm doing 100% of the work at home, in the relationship, it is fair if I get a larger say in large and small things. If I gotta cook everyday I'm gonna cook what I want. She wants a garden, I dont' because I'll be stuck taking care of it, so I think I should be able to say "no" without push back. If my days are consumed with doing all the work from 6am to bedtime why should the purposefully non-contributing person get as much of a say. If I gotta do it all I want it my way.

She'd rather give gifts. I dont' want them and to me it's a shallow way to show you care. I've stated my position on it many times.

I think there’s a level of nuance to unpack here. I agree that pwBPD are often not very responsible or accountable in their personal relationships, though they may exhibit these qualities at their workplace.

The difference? At work they have to, or else they get fired. Though if you read enough accounts here, you’ll find that many jump from job to job, just as they do with relationships.

What if you quit doing one of these tasks that you’ve gotten stuck with? Pick something that won’t be too onerous if you no longer do it. How about making her lunch? You could start by changing your lunch plans and buying yourself lunch.

There’s something to be said for “going on strike” without verbally mentioning it. I remember doing that years ago when I had roommates. I quit washing their dishes. It was gross, but eventually they caught on and started being responsible for themselves.


I think you are right; she probably doesn’t feel guilt or empathy, just shame. This goes back to the previous issue addressed above about responsibility and accountability.

It seems that pwBPD have missed at an early age some life lessons that most of us learned when we were very young. It’s not to give them a free pass. After all brains are malleable and we can make up for deficits, and it is possible they can learn.

But what you’re experiencing about her not being helpful, accountable, responsible, is due to not having these strategies imprinted when she was very young. It’s not an excuse, it’s just what is.

Something that I remember as an example of this was when I was with my ex husband and we had visitors who had traveled a distance to see us. We greeted them, then he walked into the kitchen (we had an open living room/kitchen) and proceeded to make himself a sandwich and eat it, without offering them anything.

I had been helping them with their bags, so only caught the tail end of that, but was horrified. How could he not think to offer them something?

It just didn’t occur to him. It’s stunning to think that these people have missed some of the very elementary life skills in their development, but there you have it.

And it sucks to be their partners and think we need to teach them things they should have learned as kindergartners. And that presents a whole can of worms too. We entered this relationship as equals, not as remedial therapists.

So, if you’re feeling resentment and I completely understand why, stop doing some of the things you’re resentful about. She will either do them or not. Best to try with something that won’t irritate you too much.

YES! You should cook what you want and not garden if you don't want to. (She can garden if she wants to.)

However, in my experience, the push back is going to happen with any change, especially those in which we assert our own needs and desires.

You should not be working all day every day. What do you like to do for fun or relaxation? Do it regularly. I started taking this seriously about half a year ago and I will never go back to the all work, all sacrifice, and. . .all resentment life. (And there will likely be push back from her for taking care of yourself. Do it anyway.)

Thank you.

So on the lunch thing. If I stop making it I will be accused of "never thinking about her". An example: One day I made her lunch but she got mad because I didn't carry it to the car for her. I said "well I made it". Her reply? A very rude "well thank you!" So if I don't make she will then through some snacks in a bag, and sense she can't get ready for work in time she'll make us late (we ride together most days).

On the shame/empathy thing. Do you feel that people who can't don't feel empathy are "bad people". You've answer many questions on here for me and use your husband as an example. Based on things you've told me, he seems to show empathy at some points so I don't know that this issue is universal.

My wife is actually great with guests though, go figure.

Yes, agreed.

If she wants a garden, why should you do any of it for her? Your stance could be something like "babe, I support all your efforts to personally create a garden, I hope it goes well for you". If your value is you do not want to, then don't. I'm assuming you don't have any other issues around the garden (space, safety, whatever) besides "her making you do stuff for it". So don't, AND, assuming this is true, support her efforts verbally from a distance. Does she want it? She'll figure it out.

You will have to develop a thick skin about her attitude towards you and the garden. She may say all kinds of words about how "you are what is preventing her from having a garden". Let it go. It's not true. Above all, when you adhere to your value of "I have no issue with a garden, I am just choosing not to participate", then my hope would be you could monitor your resentment levels and see a decrease in resentment surrounding that issue.

Same with lunch. If she wants lunch, let her figure it out. Develop a thick skin because you KNOW you aren't not making lunch for her "to purposefully bug her". She will say and do whatever she says and does, and if she is hungry and wants food she'll figure it out. Monitor your resentment levels surrounding this issue, perhaps quantify it and track it. See if making this change has an impact on your resentment.

Going back to this really quickly:


Why will you be stuck taking care of it... if you choose not to?

Just caught this:


OK, on the accusations -- again, consider the tactic of developing a thick skin and not engaging with stuff that isn't true. Maybe a minimal "oh babe... that would feel awful to think that". Or, nothing.


DING DING DING she can do it!


This seems like a more core issue to problemsolve -- how you can be on time to work when you carpool.

I disagree as well.  I understand (at least somewhat) the psychology of how they think, but I do not believe that it is the determining factor of what is ok or is not ok.

Like kells says, you need to develop a thick skin when she makes false claims about you with the BPD favorites *always and never*.

I seldom get the “selfish” and “don’t care” verbiage anymore. Just realized this morning that I got sucked into a conversation where he claimed I wasn’t participating in the conversation.  lol :cursing:  It never goes away,  :cursing: BPD!

When accused of not caring about some insignificant matter, I might say, “You’re probably right about that.” It stops him dead in his tracks.

If accused of “never thinking about her” you might say, “That sucks.” In that way you can both be honest and give an ambiguous answer.

Sure it can up the conflict in the moment, but sometimes you have to do that, but only when you are totally prepared to keep your cool. It’s not addressing those micro aggressions that builds up resentment.

And best—if they get a response that flips the issue back on them without you getting upset. Emotional aikido!

I appreciate all the advice. I'll have to work hard on the thick skin thing. It not so much that it hurts my feelings as much as I just don't want to deal with the drama. I guess it's just to keep the peace.

The ack of empathy thing is really eating at me too. I mean am I wrong in thinking that because she lacks empathy she is therefore a bad person? The thought of being with a bad person to me is horrible.

You’re going to deal with drama whether or not you want to. Best to turn it into a comedy. Sometimes I’m the only one laughing (silently of course, just to myself).

Maybe rather than thinking of her as a “bad person” for not having empathy, think of her as an emotional toddler. Little kids are big time narcissists, only thinking of themselves, but that doesn’t make them bad people, just uneducated in the ways of seeing the world through others’ eyes.

While I know you're right, I have a hard time with it. When I see "narcissist" I think "bad". When I think "lack of empathy" I think "sociopath" Of course it doesn't help that I'm pretty judgemental from a moral standpoint. I'll admit that.

It certainly is annoying and unpleasant, I’ll give you that. But she must have some redeeming qualities or you’d have flown the coop. What are they?

Well she can be kind...at times. She is spontaneous, she doesn't mind just jumping up and doing fun things. We have similar tastes in food, entertainment, housing, views on the world, politics, etc. She tolerates my personality quirks.

I can tolerate a lot of her other issues but this on, and maybe on other just might be line in the sand. This house is disgusting right now because I'm stuck doing it all alone while working a lot of hours in a high-stress job. She want to get some animals (we have land) but I fight it because she will take care of them for a week and the start refusing to get up early and take care of them. Excuse will be she is "tired." As if she is the only one.

Good thread...perhaps I'll try to summarize.

1.  Shift from trying to get them to do (x), to determining how much (x) you are comfortable doing (without resentment)...and then do that..and nothing more.

2.  Develop a thick hide and also a bit of a witty tongue.  So when they say something silly a bit of a cutting comment comes back at them...yet with a "twinkle in it".  I have to say that the first thought came to mind (which may or may not be good advice)...when she was complaining that you did not bring the lunch you made FOR HER to the car (and perhaps you failed to properly use a napkin on her face because she was eating and excoriating you at the same time... :(  )

FF suggests: "Is there anything else I can do to attempt to earn her highness's favor?"

then she says "you are just being an azzhole"

you say "Yes I am."  (and move on with your day...let her highness stew in her own pot)

I'll leave it to you guys to debate if this would actually be a good thing to say...I will admit I've said similar things with varying degrees of "success".

Best,

FF

Exactly  :wee:


Previously I defended myself from accusations that I’m being an azzhole. Now I embrace it. “Yep. And…?”  lol

I think that underlying the refusal to do something is some kind of emotional baggage. I think pwBPD have a skewed sense of "fairness" and I think it stems from "victim perspective". It also may fill some kind of emotional need to have things done for them. Regardless, doing too much for others leads to resentment. I agree with the posters here- do what needs to be done for basic health reasons- sanitation, nutrition, and child care- even if these are unfair - these are basic needs that must be met. Children can't do this on their own and they would be impacted without them.

Stop doing things she can do for herself. Stop making her lunch! If she doesn't eat- or just eats junk- that's on her. She's an adult. She's responsible for making her own lunch.

If you need to cook for you and any children, then cook. It's not a big deal to cook for one more person. But you are correct- you can cook what you want to cook if you are doing it.

If she wants a garden, let her do it.

The cat is also not able to take care of itself- so that's a job that needs to be done  but take note for next time she wants a pet.

Yep...this affects housework in our home..bigtime.  My wife has vivid (and nasty) memories from childhood about having to clean at the whim of her Mom (who is "a piece of work"...some of you may get the reference..hehe).

She would never know if it would last an hour...or 5.  What was "clean" a week ago...well the standard would change an they would be berated for doing it that way...and for not "knowing" they new way Mom wanted it.   Uggg...

So there is cleaning with FFw when she is "baseline"...and that's fine.

However..when she is triggered she is thinking about all that childhood horror and she begins actually acting like her Mom.  It's no longer about getting the house clean...rather it's about fixing that black hole inside of her.

In a moment of clarity..she has admitted that she cleans to feel better..."sometimes".

Best,

FF

So what do to when the place looks like trash, I'm exhausted, and she is still just there sitting on the couch playing on her phone? I very close to shutting off the phone changing the wifi password lol. I'm also unwilling to pay someone to come in and do these things. I'm also unwilling to live in squalor.

In my case it is an almost 24x7x365 think. Half the time she doesn't even know that I'm up and cleaning. She can really only focus on one thing at a time, usually her phone. I've actually gotten up and left the room for an hour and came back with a prepared meal and she had no idea I was cooking. I'll leave the room for 30 minutes with dirty dishes and she'll have no idea how the dishes were cleaned. She is really bad with time. Im just the opposite I know what everyone in the house is doing and their location at all times. I can usually tell you the time within 5 minutes without a watch/phone/clock.

Do you enjoy the housework? 

Do you "mind" the housework?

Best,

FF

Who pays for her phone service?

One question I have is - why do you continue to clean and cook for her too while she plays on her phone?

While you have different standards of cleanliness, nothing will change until she meets her standard, whatever that is. Yours is higher and so, she doesn't see that because it's done for her.

I had avoided writing too much on this topic, but it's a flash point for me as well, but possibly for different reasons. One doesn't have to have BPD to have emotional baggage and pre-set expectations formed by one's family of origin. Our parents are our first role models. For many of us - at a certain age, that role model was formed on the relationships of the 1950's to 1970's and even as more women entered the workforce, it's been known that the bulk of housework and child care often was mostly theirs.

Few people really love housework. We do it because we want the results- a clean house, nutritious meals, clean clothes.

FF mentioned his wife's baggage. I don't have BPD but know I have some feelings about housework. In my BPD mother's era, most women were housewives and didn't work outside the home. So while she identified as a housewife, she didn't do any of that either. My father, did pay for household help. There was a hidden agenda for that. If someone like a housekeeper was in the house, she was less likely to be raging and cause harm, so I suspect this gave him some peace of mind.

Her refusal to do housework also has an emotional basis. She has a great need to have people do things for her, even things she can do for herself and she manipulates people to do things for her to meet this need. There's also a narcissistic side to her. She thinks housework is beneath her. She needs people to do it for her so she can feel "better than them" and once I was old enough, I got recruited into the "lesser than her" role.

I wanted a different relationship than my parents and while I wanted the more traditional role of being a mother, I also had a career and hoped for more of a partnership. But do we marry that kind of emotional match? Hardly - we choose spouses with whom we play out some childhood issues or patterns. Enter my own H who was raised by the mother who might have walked off the set of a 1950's TV show. That looked "normal" to me from my own view point but then some things were odd. She would not go anywhere, even out for lunch with a friend sometime,  so she could fix all the meals every day for her H.  He didn't touch any kind of housework, or fix himself a meal. Learned later that she's co-dependent and yet, my H's family was far more stable than mine was. So while I expected some sort of partnership, and cognitively my H knew that- emotionally his example was set. "Real men don't do housework",

So while I expected to take on most of it, and didn't ever expect 50-50- the occasions where I asked if he'd give me a hand were met with such an exaggerated outburst, which scared me ( due to my own background) I became afraid to ask. Since what his co-dependent mother did was his example of love, asking him to help was experienced as full on rejection and he reacted as such. He has far more sense and awareness than my mother does, he would not ever meet full BPD criteria but some of these responses were in the arena of traits, and co-dependency was mine and we fit the typical patterns together. Walking on eggshells and being co-dependent was the "normal" for me growing up.

So, since I knew I didn't want to act like my mother, I defaulted to acting like his mother. I was unhappy but he had no inkling. He'd sit there, literally watching me scurry around the house doing things. It's not in his mindset to offer to help. On weekends, he might leave all day to pursue his hobbies while I stayed home alone with the kids. It's not in his mindset to offer to help, because he's not ever had any male figure role model that. As far as he was concerned, his mother was happy in her role. I don't think she was but she tried to keep the peace.

My H finally agreed to MC ( this was not the only issue that led to me wanting that) and I thought the MC would call him out, but she was wiser than that- she got me support for co-dependency, told me to stop cooking so much for him. I admitted that I resented cooking dinner, having him come in to eat, say thanks and walk off and leave me with the dishes. It wasn't that I wasn't willing to do these things. I enjoyed cooking and I am good at it. It was lonely. I wanted the company, the teamwork, the partnership of cooking a meal, eating and cleaning up together. I felt more like a servant than a partner. She pointed out the resentment I felt. She told me I had to learn to regulate my own feelings when he was angry at me. ( I was not in physical danger). To be fair, it wasn't uneven completely- H was the main wage earner. I also have a sense of fairness and expected to do the major part of the housework and child care. I wanted to do it. I liked to cook at one point. One can do the same thing and have it be co-dependent or not. I was mainly doing things out of fear and that made it co-dependency. This was the arena that emotional baggage played out on both our parts.

I still cook. He has no interest in learning how and since I value nutritious and healthy food, if I want that, I have to be responsible for that. However, sometimes he fends for himself but will heat up frozen dinners or fry something easy or just get take out. I let him figure it out. But if he does cook something he leaves the dirty pan in the sink. He just won't wash it. While it's just a pan, and takes me two minutes to wash it, he has no idea just how much that symbolizes to me. BPD mother does not do dishes. Since she delegated me to "servant"- leaving his dirty pan for me to wash feels like that. On his part, I just don't think he thinks much about it. Ironically I married someone who mostly won't do dishes either. Why do we do that? That's what I wanted to know.

This didn't get any better though until I dealt with my own emotional baggage and we all choose someone with whom we match and because of this, marriage gives us the opportunity to work on our own baggage if we are willing to look at it.

My part was - why was I willing to basically be a servant with benefits for my H? I was very unhappy yet so afraid of him being angry at me I kept on doing it. He had no incentive to change. I had to take responsibility for that.

I was also so afraid of him thinking I was like my mother, but asking him to fend for himself for dinner once in a while because I had something like a work meeting or kids had a soccer game or something like that was is not being like my mother- except in the way he accused me of being when he felt neglected. I had to undo that thinking and realize I am contributing. I also learned people will treat us poorly if we allow it and that's what happened- if I was willing to be a doormat he
seemed Ok with treating me like one.


Some of us wouldn't do that. I could never do it. If I saw my spouse scrambling to clean the house and cook dinner, there's no way I could sit there. My conscience would not allow it. I would feel badly about myself if I didn't help. But not everyone thinks that way.

I think sometimes we do all this stuff with an expectation that they will somehow notice and step in. Like if only you did the housework and cooked dinner- your wife might reciprocate. This might work for you if someone did that, but the sense of reciprocation is skewed somehow and may not be there in the first place. What is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

You need to do something different to get different results. If there are no kids involved then you can each keep separate living spaces. She can sleep in sheets that haven't been changed, have dirty towels and clothes and basically have a pig stye if she wants. She won't change things until she's had enough. You need to let her get to that. If you cook food, make it for you. You eat your meal, clean your stuff up. Let her deal with it. She may get angry, call you names but she's an adult.

It's no secret that you are resentful, really resentful. I don't blame you, but doing more of what you are doing will bring more resentment. That's not caring or loving. What keeps you willing to take all this on while she plays on her phone? That is what you need to get to. One risk you take by stepping back is that the place becomes a total pig stye, which may herald the end of your relationship. but on the other hand she might hit her limit and start to clean it up. You don't know until you let that happen. If you keep doing all these things for her, she has no incentive to do anything different.

What are you getting out of this? You said you were judgmental and this issue has you being critical of her. Sometimes being co-dependent makes us feel as if we are the better person because we do so much, but are we really? Is our enabling helping them or keeping them in their bad habits? And what she's doing works for her. She gets to play on her phone while you clean up. Why should she change?

Well we both work and all the money is shared. But since I earn a good bit more than her, I'll prorate it and say that I pay for 75% of the phone service for both of us.

I hate it, especially over the last few months? Why?

I hate it, especially over the last few months? Why?

Resentment. Whenever we act out of co-dependency rather than authentic willingness, we feel resentment.

In fact, paying attention to our feeling of resentment is the clue to if we are acting out of co-dependency.

Co-dependency is when we do something in order to manage the other person's emotions or behavior. It's fear based. We are actually managing our fear of their reaction to us when we do something.

The same act can be done out of willingness or co-dependency. What makes it different is the reason for doing it. When it's co-dependency, we build resentment.

Probably most of us don't love housework but are willing to do it because we want cleanliness and order. Cleaning the house is not necessarily being co-dependent.

Doing all of the housework, while expecting the other person to pitch in, but being afraid to ask them because they will probably act out is not willingness to do it all. It's fear of asking them. This is the same action ( cleaning the house) but it's co-dependency and the result is resentment on your part.


You doing the housework might feel like you are the better person, but it's not a gift to your spouse to build resentment.

For her to feel the need to do something, you will need to stop doing it.

It is certainly very frustrating. My wife is also extremely lazy and I used to do all the housework when she was out at work. Even when we had one baby I would jump to it the second they both left the house. I was doing it out of choice because mess and dirt doesn’t bother her. Her mother is obsessed with cleaning, like you ask if she wants to see her grandchildren and she says, “nope I have to dust and vacuum that day”. Her father never does anything. My mother is the opposite of hers and didn’t do much but got professionals in as she was out working much of the time. A few years ago I took on some part time domestic cleaning work, partly because I wanted to learn how to clean efficiently. But the other half of my problem has been different from yours… my wife didn’t want me cleaning when we’re supposed to be having precious “together time”. Now we have two babies so since covid, neither of us leaves the house much (I also teach online). So I wasn’t “allowed” to get up and go to do housework, because she wanted me with her. At some point I started to just go do it. Especially if she was starting to rant and shout about anything. Ironically this felt like a triumph because I didn’t used to be “allowed”. But the interesting thing is that since I have started doing this, my wife has actually started contributing more with doing a bit of cleaning, all the laundry she is now keeping on top of (for now), and a bit more washing up and cooking. The relationship is hardly even and I also mostly look after the dogs she has staying with us (her “business”). But I’ll take it because things have become a bit more fair. I don’t have much advice, but only that we can never control them. All we can do is experiment with different actions to see what their reaction is. Since I’ve tried different things there has been much progress here.

Her standard reply is "well if you didn't live here it wouldn't get dirty and I wouldn't have to clean." She'd probably be living amongst cockroaches before she'd feel the need.

A couple of things here. I think you're right about a lot of this. Separate living spacing might work...kinda, but when you share a kitchen it is a little hard.

It's not about gender roles or anything like that for me.

As far as who is the better person, I do consider myself to have the better moral framework. Goes to the reciprocity thing your mentioned. When questioned about it she always says "well its your choice to do all this stuff." She's right, but I'm still mad.


The situation has improved somewhat basically because I had a major blowup of my own. I more or less told her I was done doing everything, and that there wasn't much of a reason to have her around if I'm just there to be her caretaker. She offered excuses related to being tired, her emotional state...blah blah. I told her that more or less I do not care and don't want to know about it. Just do something. I even went as far as to say that many people would happily slide into the situation she takes for granted. Cruel I know, but I couldn't take it anymore. The whole take the high road thing just never works for me.

It's easy for me to accept that from a kid, but not from an adult. I don't think but kids are "bad people" for it, but I do think that about adults who behave this way. I hate to say it, but I'm starting to develop the thought that pwBPD are...I don't want to say "bad" but "flawed" morally, but "bad" is the easier word to use I guess. That by default they have a flawed  or bad moral framework and have to learn to behave in a way not native to them in order to get along with other people.

Cruel I know, but I couldn't take it anymore. The whole take the high road thing just never works for me.

I think you can reframe this. Cruel would mean continuing to clean up after her. Speaking of kids, one would not recommend doing this continuously for a child. If we want our children to grow up to be responsible and considerate adults, we give them age appropriate tasks. A small child can pick up their toys with supervision. Older children can empty the dishwasher, tidy their rooms, put clothes away. It's cruel to teach them they don't have to contribute  in ways that they can.

Your wife is not a child. She can do chores. If this were a college apartment and she didn't contribute, her room mates would be angry at her and probably tell her what they think. Natural consequences. You did as well. I don't think it's cruel.

As to morality- I an not sure it's morality but I think their perception is skewed to victim. If they see themselves as victims, they don't feel responsible for their behavior and justify acting out in self defense. I think they have a skewed sense of fairness. If everything feels unfair to them then they don't feel a sense of reciprocity.

Thanks for the perspective. I agree on pretty much all of this.

This victim perspective is interesting. She does see herself as one. It is especially obvious when she talks about work. In addition to always being the victim she tends to think that everything is about her. If some action is taken by a coworker or some statement made, she interprets to be about only her and of course in a negative way. When a coworker recently quit. Some duties were assigned to my wife. She was feeling like the victim because, in her mind, they were only asking her to pick up the slack. I asked how she knew that other hadn't been asked too. She hadn't considered that she might not know everything. It was straight to "poor me" mode.

The morality thing. I guess I'm a firm believer is that we are what our behavior says we are. I don't expect other to share this view. I think, by my standards, it would take someone with this this condition an extraordianry amount of work for me to to give them the label "good person."

She also had a mother/family that did everything for her and her siblings. At the cusp of adulthood they could do nothing from themselves. I mean nothing.

I think she understands my stance on things now. That I'm no longer interested in the "why" but only in the result.

I actually think the same thing, our behavior reflects our morals and values.

I think if someone were seriously mentally ill, like schizophrenia- and were that removed from reality, it would not be a morality issue. Likewise if someone were severely intellectually disabled.

But pwBPD are considered to be legally competent and responsible for their actions.

Agreed. Again, thank you.

I think you are getting on the right track here. 

I would want to ask you that you spend time on what the result "will look like".

So..."she loaded and ran the dishwasher".  That's a good result and good way to look at it.

So..."she didn't load the dishwasher properly"...this line of thinking is fraught...even though it is likely accurate.  (note...FF is control freak about "proper dishwasher procedures")

When this comes up (and it will) instead of explaining to her how to do it and why, at least in my case with teaching kids to clean up I try to engage them in "why did it turn out that way?"  "what could make this better?" and let them struggle through that...with little nudges from me.

My worse offender and hardest to train...I ended up just giving  him the nasty dish to put his food in (let's say he put a bowl in upside down...so the jets sprayed the outside of the dish, vice the inside where food residue was).

Of course...he didn't want to do that. 

FF "Interesting...why not"

kid  "it's nasty"

FF "weird...I thought you loaded and ran the dishwasher...what could have happened?"

etc etc

Yes it took a lot longer but my efforts at "let me show you how" that had worked with other kiddos...kinda fell flat.

Hope this helps...

Best,

FF

I don't really nitpick how things are done, unless there is some obvious safety or property damage concern. For example, don't rinse grease down the sink drain especially now that we have a septic system and not city sewer/garbage disposal. She just didn't know, and she didn't get mad when I told her. She is the type that will figure it out or come ask me, and of course many times I don't know any better how to do something anyway.

Since my big blow up she's been better, shockingly so. Sad that it had to come to that, but it worked. Sometimes I think you really have to explicitly point things out to her, she just misses a lot.

She knows how to do housework just fine. When she cleans something it looks better than when I do it, because I'm just doing it to get it done, she is cleaning it to clean (when she actually does it).

I suspect their behavior at work is not much different, once they feel "comfortable" or feel secure (however delusional that sense of security might be).
 
Since 2018, BPDxw has had 4 different jobs.  She left Job #1 which was a good job for her, to move up.  Job #2... who knows?  was a small family-owned firm, so I suspect her schtick wouldn't last very far.  She left there in about a year and a half (I was surprised it lasted that long). 

I know she was fired from job #3 for incompetence; it was her "dream job."  I noticed from her company profile, it appeared she lied about her qualifications (unless she somehow managed to get fluent in French AND Spanish in 12 months).  You really have to wonder how she expected that would go...

Jobs #1 and #4 are with the same boss, but at two different companies.  My gut tells me he views her as "eye candy" and it seemed he had a history of hiring cute 20-somethings as underlings... but maybe there really was something else going on.  

I assume going forward she's going to have to straight up lie on her resume to cover gaps, or hide jobs where she left under a cloud or got fired.  

Of course, I'm always amazed by how sloppy HR people can be, and how little diligence they do when screening candidates... good for BPDers

So thanks FF, I’m going to try this idea of giving my wife a dirty plate one day rather than cleaning up after her and saying nothing… It is such an ingrained habit I forgot it was caretaking… I think we don’t want to criticise when they actually try and do something helpful. But just like a child, they could do with learning how to do things well.

I was literally coming to this site tonight to pose the very same scenario - my husband was "up" tonight because he told me he was going to make dinner for the kids as I worked late tonight (Just for context, I always work late on Tuesdays - this is not new information to the household - I have for the last 6 years) And then, 30 minutes before I left work he told me he had a meeting that changed and that he wouldn't be making dinner until he got home, 1 1/2 hours after the expected dinner time. 

This comment really struck me in this chain
My response, via text, to my husband when he said he would be making dinner basically at the un-agreed upon time was "This is not helpful.  I will make dinner."  And HE is insulted because I'm being passive aggressive!  I'm not being flexible! I'm accusing him of not being dependable.  Blah blah. A one way heated monologue ensued for about 20 minutes about how this comment affected him - this is when he came home, kids fed, dogs fed, kitchen cleaned.

I just appreciated so much finding this exact scenario - this group is always so helpful for me! 

Is it a tendency for BPD to not be dependable?  I literally feel like I also do so much for taking care of the kids and the house - stuff that is important and not optional (for me) - and that he evades many of these responsibilities because he knows I will do them because they are high values for me (like feed the kids home cooked meals often).  It is somehow like he knows I'm obligated and care but he doesn't have the same value system but on some level it feels like a control thing - I can't quite articulate what I'm feeling but there is the gnawing feeling that he is somehow playing me. I can't explain it- I need to think about this more.  Anyone have thoughts about all of this?

Oh, and one other comment - the thing with having a BPD partner is it feels, for me, so continually confusing - is this "normal" partnership behavior, or is this the BPD behavior.  I feel like I loose my grounding for what normal behavior looks and feels like.

It's exhausting and constant work.

I think evading responsibilities is common with pwBPD. Whether it’s through a feeling of victimhood or a narcissistic sense of entitlement, who knows?

Perhaps both, I think.

I just don't think I can think of an adult this way. I can give a kid a pass, but not an adult. To me an adult is a bad person if they are cruel, unappreciative, lazy, don't feel empathy, selfish ?

The more I learn about bpd the more I think that pwBPD just have deficient (inferior maybe?) moral centers compared to the average person. I'm sorry to say that but its how I feel.

I'd never willingly let another one into my life.

Perhaps in some cases this is true.

A perhaps more accurate perspective is...

Assume a pwBPD is a very moral person, they decide to do something "right" and then for some reason they get "triggered".  Their emotions take control and "BPD" starts happening.

Most likely they are too "emotional" to consider their moral compass.  Once they get back closer to baseline, they will start to regain the ability to make moral decisions.

Best,

FF

Maybe you're right. You probably are. But it's just not how I see it. I see them as the sum total of their behavior. In my wife's case she never makes amends for it either.

I've been through enough that I just don't have any empathy left.

The only thing that's really worked for me is taking a hardline "she can take it or leave it" approach and sticking to it. It seems to have made the penalty for acting out great enough that she at least considers it.

Boundaries don't work for me for the same reason therapy didn't either...in my case its just convincing myself that my favorite part of a crap sandwich isn't the bread.

Late to the party on this thread, but this is a big issue for us.

The reasoning I see is faulty motivators. my pwBPD is motivated solely by impulse, compulsion/obsession and need for gratification/validation. She has no motivators driven by obligation or responsibility.  She can parrot the latter motivators, but the actions dont match the words

So  she will make grand gestures, fancy meal/ clean something/ put something away only when the impulse strikes and only if it is something she can point out and say look what i did (fishing for the gratification or a compliment).

A chore is something that you dont want to do but needs to be dont in order to have a functional household ie it requires obligation/responsibility motivator.  Often for things that are not seen or noticed by anyone else, there is no "praise prize". Not having these motivators they simply wont happen. They dont avoid them, they are simply not on their radar. They will even put enormous effort into getting out of something that would take less effort to do, almost like a chore is a threat to their very existence

What can you do about it? Very little, its like teaching a cat to bark, and just trying is going to frustrate you and piss off the cat. It does get to you though as you kinda feel like a slave. But living with mess left behind that you wont cover on principle trying to teach them a lesson eats you up even more.

Yet at the same time they will tell anyone else who cares to listen how much they do, and they actually believe it themselves. Thats their reality and you are not going to change it. Just have to work around it and get on with your life.

My wife hardly every cooks regular meals yet she will brag to everyone how much she likes to cook, most nights she will say "do you mind cooking dinner tonight?" in a tone that suggests she cooks every night normally but has had a big day (doing nothing) and would like a night off.>>Uncanny ability to get out of stuff while at the same time get a slice of credit for how much she imagines she is doing. Trying to point this out is just going to create escalation

My pwBPD is not a moral person she just likes to wear that mask in order to gain approval/validation. She is quite capable of throwing anyone under a bus to avert responsibility. Even if apologising after the event it is simply to hit reset and fishing for a "thats ok its not a big thing" type of absolution. The behaviour does not change or modified in the future. There is no cause and affect connection, just a responsibility diverted, a clean sheet reestablished.

If my wife "decides to do something right" it is only to impress this upon someone, if there is no one to impress she will default to compulsion.

An example of this faulty moral compass is she will make a big show of donating to charity, but has no issue claiming on a charity simply because she can spin them her need for help, even though clearly not needed. The ability to spin a convincing sob story and be believed in her mind proves she is entitled to it. Part of the entrenched mentality. No matter how I point this out she can't see it, its not even deliberate conning, she just cant see the duplicity of it.

She is getting 2 needs met, approval validation gratified, and victimhood validation. All by putting a dollar in and taking ten dollars out

Its like teaching a cat to bark, and just trying is going to frustrate you and piss off the cat.

WW - your posts always hit the nail right on the head.

This is an interesting question.  Not to stray too far off topic, but I've read there is very much a nature/nurture issue behind BPD, as in there is a genetic link, but also the effects of childhood and early adulthood trauma that play a role in creating it. 

Just spitballing here... but I imagine persons who's cause for BPD is mainly genetic, but otherwise had the foundations there for a happy childhood and parents (or at least some adult role models) who modeled moral conduct may have moral centers, but struggle to manage their emotions consistently with that moral center.

On the other hand, those who develop BPD as a result of childhood trauma, abandonment, or other abuse may not have a "moral center" and may develop very vindictive and malevolent means of protecting themselves from a world they perceive as uniformly hostile. 

There is definitely a spectrum here, if you compare stories.  They run from "difficult to get along with, but endearing in some way" to complete monsters rife with substance abuse, infidelity, physical abuse, etc.   I would not be surprised to learn that on the more "mild" end, the cause was mainly genetic, and on the other end, more environmental.

I agree with @fisher101... probably both.

BPDxw definitely had inferiority complex issues due to growing up poor in a poor country.  She seemed to view cleaning as weakness and a sign of poverty, as in cooking and cleaning was "work you paid poor people to do," and she avoided it as much as possible... even if it meant she lived in filth.  I did more than my share of housework, especially considering for the first several years of marriage I was the sole breadwinner, but I would not clean her car, with the result that it was completely disgusting... melted candy in the carpets, everything sticky, hair all over, ugh... but I digress... there was definitely this aversion to cleanliness that stemmed from a sense of victimhood.

On the other hand, she was an only child, and her parents really poured what resources they did have into ensuring she got into good schools (which was entirely due to bribery in her country) and pushed this idea on her that she was destined for greatness.  She also told me her parents did all the cooking and cleaning around the house and she never had to help.  It explained a lot.  They really created a monster... she was abandoned with relatives for the first several years of her life, and possibly abused during that time, and then later on when her parents returned to her life spoiled her as much as they could, and fostered a sense of entitlement... maybe out of guilt.  I don't know.