BPDFamily.com

Hello,

First time poster. I've read many threads over the past few days, began a very long post, and then realized the essence of my post is 1) I am hurting, and 2) How do I heal from being scapegoated for my entire life?

Very brief background: I am 50yo male. My father suffers alcoholism and almost certainly BPD/NPD. His emotional abuse has been severe and persistent since I was a toddler. Complicating matters is that he is very wealthy and maintains an absolutely perfect facade. But behind the exterior, he is incapable of self-regulation or self-reflection, despite or enabled by 20 years of psychoanalysis. Several people have come up to me over the years, and validated me, unsolicited ("It must have been very hard to be his son" kinds of remarks).

In March 2021, I clumsily but very respectfully set a boundary because my father had been telling our then 7yo son he wanted to see him "without parents," and my father lost it. He had already split his grandsons (my son and my GC sister's son), but at my boundary setting he went over the top, sending a severe and punishing letter essentially (but not entirely) disowning me. For a bit more context, he once raged at my then-pregnant wife (who is from a different race) that "he didn't care if he ever saw this baby!" Since then, he has seen our 8yo son a total of 4 times, but none in the past 4 years. He visits my sister's 8yo son quarterly and takes that family on annual trips, most recently to Europe.

I am NC with my GC sister for the past 6 or 7 years. I am LC with my codependent mother, whom I would prefer not to lose. Even though I've never regularly spoken with my father (my T believes he can not accept me because I am intellectually and ethically superior), for years the only correspondence we really receive is 1) raging, blaming, or 2) gloating about events that we were not invited to, like their recent trip to Italy. I believe he sends these emails to hurt me, and also because in his sickness he actually loves me and is very very pained.

Last, I started ACA 3.5 years ago, and it changed my life. I was made very, very sick by all of this, too. I attend ACA weekly and am not trying to say they are all sick, and I never was sick.

I thought about posting some of his correspondence, for normative feedback on the severity of the abuse. Let me know if this might be helpful.

So: how do we heal from being so brutally abused and scapegoated?

There have been flying monkeys and all the rest, and they ALL (except my mom, who deep down seems to recognize the problem) blame me totally. My father seems to have totally "cut me out" from his life. Is there any hope for long-term reconciliation with these people - at the funeral? (I've already tried everything - my inner children have done his best for all of these years.) Obviously I love them, and total NC does not feel right. But neither did getting punched in the nose, over and over and over. My fantasy would be to be a great husband and dad, and somehow still have some functional relationship with my FOO - even though my father cannot (as opposed to will not) be different.

Thank you.

Wow -- I am so sorry you are going through all of this. I have noticed that with those of us in similar situations with our FOO, there is a commonality to our questions. We ask how we can be in relationship with our relatives when there is a lifelong pattern of verbal and emotional abuse that is not going to change? My T told me that I should think of myself as an orphan. I was initially pretty surprised by that but when I reflected on it, it was somewhat liberating.

The community here has supported me in trying to set and model healthy boundaries that are designed to protect me and my son and that do not change based on the unhealthy reactions of my relatives. I think the hardest part is letting go of the desire to participate in a genuine emotional exchange with our loved ones because it is not safe to do that with them.

I also have a fantasy that I could someday build a bit of trust with my FOO, but over time I have come to realize that the fantasy is preventing me from taking positive action to build a healthier relationship with them. I am still trying to shed it.

Your situation is complicated by the dynamic between your father, your child and your father's other grandchildren. What is the best outcome you can envision for your child as he grows up?

My son just turned 18 and it was a challenge to stop my uBPD mother from triangulating him while he grew up. She is still trying. It helps that she lives far away and that I have no financial ties with her.

Thank you for your response and support. I've also been advised that I am an orphan (and even read about this), but this alone hasn't really brought much relief.

What does the healthier relationship with them look like?

I really appreciate this question. First a bit more background: my father split the grandchildren (there are two grandsons, born two weeks apart) before they were even born, forbidding them from being together on Christmas and then blaming me verbally and in writing for his actions. Several years later, when it suited him, he demanded that they be together - after he had ignored our son and spent several years joined at the hip with my GC's son. We declined.

The best outcome is that 1) our son feels confident in himself and LOVED, 2) we protect him from the truth (family history) until he is ready - then we will tell him the truth, and 3) he grows into a capable young adult and adult.

Yes, despite my father's promises to stay away (we never asked him to stay away! but he writes and tells that we told him to "steer clear" - simply not true), he sends gifts. We do not return to sender, because that would only pour gasoline on the fire and after my clumsy but respectful boundary setting March 2021, I never again want to antagonize him. So at Christmas we give the gifts, but right now we are sitting on one that we have not yet given to our son. Under the circumstances, it feels very dangerous and frankly highly manipulative (and disrespectful) from my father. On a long hike yesterday, our son asked me when we would next go visit his grandparents. I simply said, "Wouldn't that be nice" and hugged him.

In his major "this is not the last straw" letter last year, my father told me that his priorities were to ensure my mother, sister, and the two grandsons (but no mention of me) would be taken care of if he is ever incapacitated, and that I would receive a fixed amount payment but never any assets. The GC sister is the executor, etc etc etc. It was a very legalistic and hateful letter; that's simply who he is and has always been.

Regarding the finances, we have successfully navigated the world so far (even though I am at the very pinnacle of my field, nothing I ever did was good enough, and  it was all worthless in my father's eyes, or I only received the most superficial of acknowledgements) and are on track to be just fine. (BY contrast GC sister has needed him every step of the way). But of course, like the gloating from Europe email last week - bragging about my sister's family with no mention of us, obviously we had no idea and were not invited, this all feels like a serious punch in the gut and one more way I am discarded and not seen. One note: it is possible that my father took them there to outdo me, as I was to present in Italy last Spring but the trip was cancelled. He has sought to belittle or outdo me on many instances in the past.

One last item. Last spring, after the severe, dysregulated letter from my father, I described to my mother that when I was a young child and very severely emotionally abused and then a true victim, she would tell me that my father really didn't mean it and loved me but didn't know how to say so. She remembered. Then I said, "Mom, it seems to me that nothing at all has changed." She agreed and said, That would be correct."

The twisted thing is that all these years later, I still do not know if my father "loves" me, and I still hold out some sliver of hope that he does love me, and all will be OK.

I want to move forward and continue to heal, but the last week feels really hard.

I think your situation overlaps with some of us here in several ways. I have been the scapegoat child as well. I have also spent time in ACA groups. One thing that helped me the most as an individual in these groups was to work one on one with a sponsor. We were able to get deeper into the particulars about my situation than we do in groups. If you have not done so already, I recommend you seek out a more experienced group member that you would like to work with and ask them to sponsor you. If they aren't able to do that, keep asking. ( some sponsors don't agree to work with more people than they have time for, so don't take a no personally ).

While I don't think my parents have had as much wealth as your father does, they have had enough of it for it to be a form of control over people. This was a motivator for me to become financially independent of them as soon as I was able to do so. It didn't mean I had a lot. I choose an affordable state college, spent my college years as a student with limited means. Dad earned all the money, but BPD mother controlled it. Any money from them had strings attached.

They sent the golden child sibling to a prestigious private college, study abroad, and helped to support this sibling longer but the unfortunate result was that this sibling remained enmeshed longer and remained under BPD mother's control longer. Before I realized this, I felt the situation was unfair and hurtful- but in actuality, I was able to not be as enmeshed.

If your achievements are not recognized by your father as "good enough"- that's a reflection of his issues. It has nothing to do with you. You have always been good enough.

BPD mother has also tried to have a relationship with my kids that didn't include me. She's not responded well to boundaries about that, but my kids are my priority. Dad was angry at me for doing this.

So how to begin to recover from this kind of treatment? I think the work in ACA has helped and also counseling. It has helped me to not take this kind of behavior personally. It may appear they prefer your GC sibling, but in actuality, you have the greater ability to be your own separate person because you are not reliant on your father's money. This work isn't quick, it takes effort, but it is achievable and very worth the effort and investment of your time. Your family doesn't define who you are. You are good enough and can realize it.

Thank you, Notwendy. Our stories are indeed very similar. I WANT to continue to heal - and I will. This week just hurt a bit. I'm praying the ACA serenity prayer and also working on Steps 6 and 7.

Random other facts if helpful: 1) I have a sponsor and also a T. Sponsor is very helpful but has wanted me to heal, faster - so won't really talk to me about FOO anymore. 2) After the hateful "nearly but not disowning" letter from my Dad, I told my Mom, "I can't live this way anymore." She said, "I put my faith in your strength." The whole thing is soo sick. I think daily of what I might say at my Dad's funeral, if I were invited or chose to attend. I really would much rather think about my FOO less and my REAL family (wife and son) more.

Are your parents alive?
Were you disowned?
What happened/what is your relationship with your GC sibling?

I think I was in a similar place as you are now, towards the end of my father's life several years ago. Due to having boundaries with BPD mother, he got angry at me although he did not tell me I was disowned.

I was not at the hospital at the time he passed away. BPD mother notified immediate family but not me. I found out when one of Dad's family members called me. At this point, I realized I was probably disowned.

I didn't want to go to the funeral after that as I didn't think it was appropriate for me to be there.  However, my kids were close to my father. They wanted to go. I went because of them. I didn't sit anywhere near my mother or her family. I didn't say anything at the funeral.

What followed that was several months of grief, confusion and disbelief. Was this my father's idea? Did my father even care about me or did I imagine it? More likely it was my mother's idea.

It was shortly after this that I found ACA.

Ironically, even with all the grief was a strange sense of freedom. I didn't have a choice to have a relationship with BPD mother before. I didn't even consider it. My relationship with Dad was contingent on my relationship with her. I had to comply with her. Now, I didn't.

But then, I had to consider my own values. BPD mother was now an elderly widow. Can I actually cut contact with her and feel OK about it? No. A wise friend advised me to call her from time to time on a schedule to check on her. I did. But I have kept an emotional distance. 12 steps helped me to let go of resentments. I realize she acted out of dysregulation. However, 12 steps has helped me to have boundaries and not accept abusive behavior.

She later "reowned" me in her will but what she does is up to her. I am not interested in what she does with it either way.

I have a good, but guarded relationship with GC. GC is also in ACA. However, GC still can be vulnerable to BPD mother's manipulations and for that reason, I stay a bit guarded with our communications. But generally we get along well.

I know it feels badly for you now. I share my story to show you that I understand feeling as if one is orphaned, and that, it is possible to move past where you are now. It doesn't mean I don't have struggles with my relationship with BPD mother but I now have the tools to self regulate and dwell less on the situation. Your progress with this may feel slow. I felt that too but one day BPD mother said something to me on the phone that I would have gotten upset about, but I didn't. I realized this is that "emotional sobriety" they are talking about. Keep working the steps with your sponsor. One reason your sponsor limits you talking about your family is that they want you to focus more on you, your feelings, your choices. Take it one day at a time.

Thank you, Notwendy, for sharing and for your support. I feel validated and much less distressed than during the past week (!). It really is about emotional sobriety and one day at a time.

I have a few specific questions regarding current interactions but first will process our discussion thus far - and hope to hear others' similar stories and insights.

Seekingpeace2day,

Sometimes we just have to go cold turkey on our families.

I just initiated a family cutoff myself even though just two months ago the thought of doing so seemed absolutely impossible. But then I suddenly got to the point where I decided that I no longer needed their approval, and then it was easy.

This video helped me a lot, although I didn’t send a letter.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=olqyOZnFRWM

First of all, I am really sorry for what you have been (and still are) going through.  


Is there any hope of change with any disease, without treatment of some kind?  

I think sometimes we hope for the impossible because we want it so bad.  Is our hope a bit irrational?  Is it rational to think we will ever get a new outcome without a change to the conditions?

Sadly it's a disease, and I don't know of a disease that cures itself.   In terms of reconciliation, it would seem from what you have written that it is unlikely, since your son is now 8 years old.  If you step back and look at it from where I am, what kind of person refuses to see their own grandson?  Does any child deserve to be treated like that?  You were a child once too, and were badly treated.  You didn't deserve that either.  This is your father's problem.

I am sorry that you are living with the consequences of his problem.  I wish I could offer more, but I have only support to offer you.

I am very sad reading your replies, Couscous and Metheun. I'm not yet sure if it is my inner child, adult, or whole self who is so sad.

I will say - at risk of sounding like defending my parents - that 1) they once wrote and said that they never wanted my son, to sense any tension between the family - so in a way they were protecting my son, 2) my father once wrote that he tried to win his father's love by presenting me as a gift to his father, and this was a mistake so he would not let me make the same mistake - that was his justification for not seeing us (that the connection had to come from my son, not me), and 3) my father has a strong FANTASY of seeing my son but is totally unable to see his own behavior, so angrily blames me for their non-relationship. It's like my father has no skills to be different, and I'm not sure if part of him deep down wishes he could be different or not.

My plans are to continue to maintain boundaries, including protecting my son from my father and NC with my GC sister-in-denial, at least until my parents are very old/sick or die. I mean think about it, what would it be like to be together with him/them all and pretending nothing happened?

How should I proceed with my mom? My mom has always maintained a loving relationship with me but now confesses that she is totally unable to control my father. To the extent that she is capable of love, she loves me. Of course, she is codependent so I really don't know what happens when I am not there. But she sees me clearly. In terms of her own life, she is generally totally disassociated and refuses to discuss real family issues. But when trauma happens she comes out of her shell and reveals insight and can relate in a genuine way. She did come visit last year - after the severe letter from my Dad she invited herself to visit us (perhaps as a way to keep us all together). When I told her she had not seen our son in 3 years, her eyes bugged out and she could not believe it, like it had not crossed her mind! She loves our son (and my father loves the IDEA of a grandson). I now text 1 line texts with my Mom, once a month or so. Should I call her? Let her talk to our son? Let her visit? Or stay hidden (and relatively safe) and let her keep walking down the road with my Dad?

Are they happy together when I am not there, or are they always sick and miserable?

Apologies if a bit scattered post. Thanks for reading and thanks for any insight.

These are complicated relationships. It's not that our parents are completely terrible- I think most of us can say positive things they have done. There's a "push -pull" to these relationships, periods of calm, periods of dysregulation. Part of learning to radically accept them as they are is to accept that all sides of these relationships exist. So yes, your father could both be protective of your son, and also relate to him in hurtful ways, just as he has done with you. The good doesn't change that the negative exists too.

When we are assessing if the relationship is a safe one for us, or children, we have to look at all of it. For instance, a short supervised visit with my BPD mother is safe for kids. Being alone with her is not. I don't feel comfortable being alone with her for long periods of time either.

Consider consistency. When an adult comes into a child's life, forms a relationship with them,  and then leaves abruptly due to some perceived slight, that isn't good for a child. Children can't process this. So even if your father comes into your lives and is on his best behavior, then gets angry and "disowns" you again, this would not be good for your child.

Seeing grandpa once a year might not be an issue but another concern is the drama associated with this- how does your father interact with him? I found this to be more problematic when the kids got older. Visiting a small child wasn't much of a big deal. Parents brought toys, we went to the park, kids ran around. However, as teens, my BPD mother could ask probing questions, confide in them. Her lack of boundaries became more of a concern. So consider contact with your parents over time, not at one age.

What to do about your mother? I considered my father to be a separate individual, but in actuality, he was enmeshed with my mother that they were more like one person. It's interesting because sometimes when she's talking to me, she sounds just like him. I wonder now if he was actually saying what he thought, or what she thought, or vice versa. I learned that anything I said to him, even if it was in confidence, was shared with her- emails, phone calls, everything. The Karpman triangle was strong- and their rescuer (him) - victim (her) bond was the strongest and they'd eventually act from that position.

I didn't fully understand co-dependency until I had to work on my own co-dependent tendencies. I perceived Dad as the "normal" parent and compared to BPD mother, he was the more emotionally stable one. He also did seem to connect with me, be emotionally available, and have a genuine bond with me at times, but that was expendable when it came to BPD mother's wishes.

I think his relationship with my mother was extremely difficult. I hope he found some kind of happiness in it somehow, because from what I saw, it wasn't. Like your mother - he seemed to be operating in crisis mode, with the focus on BPD mother. So even if he was possibly capable of being emotionally available, he usually wasn't due to this focus.

Another parallel is that BPD mother loves the idea of grandchildren, but from a self image standpoint. She likes the image of being a grandmother. The grandkids are accessories to that image.

My father though, was an engaged parent and grandparent. During visits, my mother was self absorbed and kind of observed the kids. Dad would get on the floor and play with them, tell them stories. As teens, he'd discuss school with them. They had a bond with him in a similar way that I did, and for this, I think it was worth it to have them get to know their grandparents. It all fell apart though when I tried to have boundaries when they were teens.

Regardless of how much contact you want with your mother, keep in mind that she's enmeshed with your father. Ultimately he will be in control and the strongest bond is between them.

Thanks, Metheun. I discussed with my wife this morning, and in her mind there is no question that my mother very much loves our son, as well as each of us. So, it’s a conundrum. When she is with our son, she is a good grandmother, and she has also volunteered to read via zoom for his class, etc. etc. My dreams have been telling me that I am in a safe place to observe, so even though I want to hug her, I probably should stay safe and continue to observe.

What are they like as a family, when I am not around?

Trust your gut. If it says to observe- that's what you do. Perhaps by learning more about family dynamics on this board, and boundaries - you will at one point feel you can decide how to proceed but trusting your gut feelings can guide you to when that is, if ever.  Know that there isn't just one way. All decisions- NC, LC, have both pros and cons. I don't think we ever feel entirely comfortable with our choices- we decide which one is the safest for us and one we can manage best.

What are they like when you aren't around? Your parents, or all of them? GC as well?

As the scapegoat child, I assumed my family was happier once I left home. BPD mother blamed me for her issues and so I assumed that by leaving home, it would be a solution for them. Since BPD mother did hold it together when visiting, I had no reason to not assume this.

BPD involves disordered relationships and it affects the most intimate of relationships the most. Knowing this - you can assume it's even more disordered between your parents, however, they are in a balanced match- your father's alcoholism, BPD, with your mother's co-dependency. That doesn't mean it is stable or happy- but just that together, their disordered behaviors somehow fit with each other.

I don't think my GC sibling is any better off than I am. Enmeshment is not a better situation than scapegoat.

I am not trying to be dismissive with this question, but sending you back toward introspection : does it truly matter?

Why does it matter so to you to know how they are when you are not there?

Are you thinking of letting your son have a relationship with your father "on his own", as your father once requested? Is it why you wonder how your father is when you are not there?

My BPD mother differs from Notwendy's when it comes to kids, so this might offer another perspective. My BPD mother loves her grandkids, much more than she ever loved us. Both my brothers were raised as protectors and rescuers. And I, her only daughter, am an extension of her inner life i.e., she projects on me, and doesn't know, nor see me.  Truth be told : she has no idea who I am. She thinks she does, and will "read my mind",  but it is a sure miss everytime.

With my children, when they were born, it set off a strong dysregulation pattern in our relationship. Prior to my having children, she didn't care much for me and what I was doing. However, the second I became pregnant, she was back in my life.

Now... She is a GREAT grandmother, especially with young kids. But, because of the dynamic she sets between us, the biggest issue is that : she competes against me (and against the other grandparents) which is very unhealthy. She sees herself as someone who could be a better mother for them, if that makes sense.

Reading you, I sense the dynamic with your own father is similar, no? He competes with you, he will go to places you couldn't go, always making sure you know, he is looking to be smarter, better than you.

Like you wrote about your father, my mother also resent that I am more rational than she is, and yes, smarter too, definitely sharper, more logical. I am a perfectionnist like my father, and it triggers her big time.

So what would your father do, with a relationship with your children, without you present?

I can tell you what my mother does... : she competes for their love and will wedge them against me if I turn my back... Because this is the nature of our relationship. She simply has to be better than me. She tried it with my nephew and my sister in law, so I have no reason to believe it will be different for me. She already showed me plenty of signs that this is the deep dynamic.

A great grandmother for my children...to the cost of my relationship with them. And I am not ready to sacrifice my bond with my children to please her narcissistic needs.

So my children see my father and his wife, and my in-laws. My BPD mother is not in their life anymore. I decided to protect my family.

Do I feel guilty about it? Yes, sometimes. A user here pointed out to me that I have internalized the abuse cycle within me, making me feel it's tender side every few weeks. Then I feel guilt, I miss my mother and I feel like I am the bad one... But truth be told: my mother neglected me nearly all my life, except for very few moments where she showed love. But generally, she didn't care and terrorized me. Why and how do I owe her a bond with the two people I hold most precious in my life? She abused me all my life... Being a grandparent is not a right, it is a privilege, and she lost it when she decided to continue her abuse.

Don't get me wrong, it breaks my heart. But I have to listen to my intuition. This gut wrenching feeling whenever she is around my kids. I see her, and I get this image of a wolf preying on my young children, despite her smiles and her playing with them. I simply don't feel this scared with my father, his wife and my in-laws. They are safe. She isn't.

And yes, it also hurt deeply to see her able to love my children so much, knowing what she did to me when I was their age (hurting me physically, emotionnally, raging at me, terrorizing me). But this is not payback, this is a protective boundary I chose for my family.

I hope this helps.

Sorry double post.

The dynamic between you and your mother sounds so much like the one between me and my father. He even made the trek across 9 time zones to visit me after a particularly hurtful situation that transpired with between my mother and me. I really wanted to believe that this meant that he genuinely loved me, and while I do believe that part of him does, this particular trip was motivated solely by his need to be a hero and he was essentially exploiting the situation for his own gain.

He also was a fairly engaged grandfather — that is until I began the process of “unmeshing” from him a few months ago. I’m not sure if it’s just a temporary phase as he adjusts to the new normal, but now that I am no longer initiating regular contact with him, he appears to have lost interest in my 5 & 7 year old boys. I guess he’s just too “hurt”. I can easily imagine that, going forward, he will just send gifts in lieu of having an actual relationship with them.

In the end though, I realized that I had a healing fantasy that my parents were going to be these loving, engaged grandparents, and that somehow this was going to magically heal my childhood wounds, and that we would all live happily ever after. Sadly it just doesn’t work that way…

Thank you all for your thoughtfulness and support. Posting here was a great act of self-care for me. (I had been embarrassed!)

Drama Triangle
A-ha! I have been reading and struggling to understand the drama triangle. Boom! Part of my mom's coming to visit us was to be the rescuer. Wow! How do I learn more about how to recognize and avoid these traps? I've read a bunch but not yet grasped it.

Mom
My mom does love us, and we have some connection. Her recent text was, "I'm thinking about you and wanted you to know! I love you all the time." But when she has just gone to Eurpope for 2 weeks with GC sister's family, after a period of radio silence to me, those words of course ring hollow. Even so, I believe she does the best she can and is just disassociated most of the time. She explicitly states, "I just black that out" when I ask about past family trauma/abuse. She is not a victim, of course. She is a 50/50 partner in the madness. Even so, she is not the perpetrator that my father is.

My T thinks it is dangerous for me to connect with mom or for her to spend time with my son, because it is exposing my son to something that is very dangerous to him. At the same time, I don't want to lose my mom - she is my last somewhat real connection to my FOO. Even though my dreams say stay safe and observe, I want to make this decision - not have it made for me by her death. I guess my decision for now will be to stay safe and observe. Note that my mom's visits with our son have always been very kind and loving. Her denial and disassociation are staggering, but I love her.

Father
I know that my father is severely dangerous to us - even though he seems highly engaged and incredibly kind to GCs child. Of course, he is just using the child as an extension of himself - an image of the perfect grandchild! I mourn that my son will not have a special relationship with his grandfather - but that does not seem possible. I even wonder if GC's son has a special relationship with my father, or if someday that might turn south, too.

Telling our children
How have others told their children that grandfather (and/or grandmother) are not safe? My T wisely states that at some point, I'm going to need to bring him on board with the reality. Overall, it's just not a fun situation. But I will protect him no matter what.

Thanks for reading.

I have two thoughts about this.  One is the consideration of the developmental level of the child and two is the execution of the delivery of the message.  Both are tricky.

On the first point, I think there is risk in telling the child too much before a certain age.  What the "magic" age is will depend on the child.  Children are completely innocent, and can say the darnedest things.  Sometimes cute.  Sometimes awkward or embarrassing.  If a child is told this message before they are developmentally ready to understand the nuances and complicating factors, they can inadvertently slip up and grand dad will certainly find out what you told them.  At that point, it becomes a competition, grand dad will say things about you, and the child will be caught in the middle.  That would be a disaster.  Also kids can't keep "secrets", and I have strong feelings against asking kids to keep information about another family member secret.  IMHO, if a child "might" need to be told that this information is not to be mentioned to anyone else, it is possible they can't be trusted to keep it quiet, either because the secret is bursting inside them, they can't possibly understand your history, or they inadvertently slip up.  

As to the delivery, this is also tricky.  In our case, H and I were together with our kids when we shared "the first little bit" which was really just the tip of the iceberg.  H and I came up with a plan, a script of sorts, and then H delivered the message when the four of us were together.  We hoped that the message coming from him would make it look more neutral, and by H delivering it, the kids saw their dad supported me.  I can't remember the exact words, but we tried to keep it somewhat brief and simple.  Our kids were young adults by then, so H started with a preamble about "grandma's quirkiness" and reminded of a particular story, and then told them something along the line of how grandma had trouble managing her feelings and emotions, and when she was upset about something, would take it out on me.  Our daughter had by then witnessed one of these rages, so the facts were undeniable.  They both listened quietly.  We didn't ask them to say anything or respond.  But he did tell them that we were both seeing a counsellor together, and over the years, different counsellors all identified it as "sounding like BPD" - a mental illness.  Our kids were in their early 20's.  The whole thing probably took 10 min - maybe more.  

If the child was younger, it should be probably only be a sentence or two.  But be aware that with younger kids, whatever you say will almost certainly get to your father if contact occurs - unless the child is emotionally and intellectually mature enough to know to keep it quiet without being told to do so.  Maybe others would disagree.  Just my thoughts.

If the child is a teenager, it really depends on the child.  My mom groomed our son.  He was GC.  Grand daughter was almost invisible to her, and knew it by the age of 7 because she talked to me about it.  I mentioned it kindly to my mom hoping she would be more mindful, but it never changed a thing.  I had never heard of BPD back then, so was not equipped to navigate what was happening.  I honestly don't know if we could have told our kids earlier about their grandma. Grandson was very close to his grandma because she groomed him.  He was her "special" one.  Today I am very proud of him, because he has the big boy pants to call her on her behavior when he is witness to it.  He has never seen her rage at me, but he witnessed her abuse a home care worker - and he called her on it right there in front of the worker, and us.  He's 27 now.  Having said that, he can still be defensive of her.  The grooming (to be her emotional caretaker) still had an effect.  Thankfully he lives 6 1/2 hours away from her now (but still visits lots and works remotely at our place).

Another strategy we used was to "engineer" situations, without ever "declaring" a boundary (because that just escalates and creates conflict and hurt feelings).  For example, one of the things my dad liked to do was drive the logging roads up a few local mountains in the summer time, and then we would hike around the alpine areas.  My dad got dementia, and while he accepted it with grace, he still thought he could drive up a mountain road in his truck with us and the kids as passengers.  We just weren't comfortable with that.  We never declared that he couldn't drive us and our kids on this outing, we just weren't available to go on the few occasions when the weather was right.  We did many other things with him instead that we felt safe doing, and if there was driving involved, my H did it.  We used the same strategy with my mom.  She was a terrible driver.  She once decelerated and stopped the vehicle in a driving lane on a highway when she picked us up from the airport after we returned from our honeymoon.  She was excited to see us and talking, and there we were sitting in the back seat in the middle of a highway with vehicles going all around us.  When our kids were still quite little, we found a daycare that would deliver and pick up our kids for before and after school care, so we didn't have to rely on her driving.  We did lots of things with grandma and grandpa, but by then we had bought a van, had the bigger more comfortable vehicle, and therefore did the driving.  I don't know if this kind of "engineering" could apply to your situation.  So we had a boundary (grandma and grandpa not safe to drive our kids) and we enforced it, but without ever declaring it.

If your child is asking to see him and grandma, that makes it harder.  About the GC and your dad treating her family including GC grandson on holidays, I would just continue to not share that info with your child.  What they don't know can't hurt them.  

Ultimately, you know your child best.  You know your parents.  You know your history and the situation.  And every situation is unique with unique people in the drama.  It's going to depend on so many things - but do trust your gut.  Be aware of potential pitfalls, but listen to the voice at the back of your head (the rational one) as well as the one in your heart.  If you approach it rationally and thoughtfully, that's the best you can do.  

(Is there an edit feature in this forum?)

Really helpful, Metheun. Thanks.

Our son will turn 9 in September, and although he is very bright, he is obviously far too young to share any of the details. He thinks his grandparents love him and talks about them from time to time. My initial thought is that we should protect this innocence as long as possible. Do you agree? But as my T mentioned, at some point he will need to know.

It does not matter. I suppose I am much too other-focused when I ask what they are like without me there, i.e., if they experience severe problems even when I am not around, then it's definitely them and not me! That is admittedly the biggest part of my curiosity (which of course does not help my healing/recovery). The second reason is that I genuinely am curious about BPD/NPD etc. Practically speaking, we are very, very far away from my father ever spending time with my son alone - even my mom warned me against that, when our son was 4 or so. She told me, "Don't ever leave him [son] alone with him [father]."



I agree with so much of what you wrote here, especially about grandparenting being a privilege and not a right. It's interesting because in my FOO I *would not have survived adolescence and young adulthood* without my grandmothers - they literally saved my life. I would stay with them at the holidays (abuse/toxicity in my father's house), and my grandmothers loved and supported me. (My mom's mom told me to never trust my father - she told me details of my father's abuse of my mother). They also left me a small inheritance, which I used to "buy my way out" and attend graduate school. I have less money in the bank than my GC sister, who lived at home until she was married at 26, but I'm sure I now earn far more than she does and I contribute infinitely more to the world and greater good. Anyway, there has been an important role for grandparents in the multi-generational trauma that certainly exists in my FOO. That doesn't mean I need to continue it blindly, with such obvious risks. NO ONE (since I was bullied as a kid, which obviously I learned at home) has ever spoken to me the way my father routinely speaks to me... how could I let my son see that? Eff no. No effing way. End.

Anyway, one difference between your BPD mom situation and mine is that my parents are married. Even so, your experience suggests that some contact with my mom could be possible, no?
 
Thanks, Riv3rW0lf. This helps a lot.

Couscous,

Your post triggered a major realization for me, thank you!

When my mother is with me, she is a rescuer (me=victim, father=persecutor). When she is with HIM, she is a rescuer (father=victim, me=persecutor). Wow. Is there anything I can do with this information, to improve relationships or interactions?


I also have healing fantasties, but they are so weakened because now I this, how can this possibly be undone (other than by a Divine miracle)? I will never, ever expose my family to that toxic environment - it is the opposite of neutral turf. So, I work to stay in the fight and don't abandon myself, one day at a time.

Notwendy, Thanks. I have no doubt that I am healthier and stronger than my GC sister. I suppose I am just pissed for how she is rewarded and treated. "It's not fair!" Ug, not where I want my focus to be.

In terms of BPD curiosity, how might the relationships work with my GC sister and my parents? My brother in law (about whom my father now boasts in his emails)? Having watched my mother and sister for years, they seem to walk on eggshells always around my dad, but always stroke his ego and enable/tolerate his ways. My brother in law must do the same, and I also think my father uses him to hurt me and rub it in that I am not included. Not sure if relevant, but although my father made a lot of money I certainly am in the running for most successful career. (None of this is core to my healing/recovery, but I am so darn curious and hopeful that some insight will help me stop wondering.)

Also, above you write about understanding your own codependence. Did you attend CODA? Read something in particular? Obviously I'm not yet entirely free of the enmeshment (or I wouldn't think about them so often). Some days are better than others, and I know my healing is within ME and not in them.

About protecting his innocence- It makes sense at his age. 

What I would probably do, if possible, is avoid saying anything about them around him. Then he has no reason to notice it or think about it.

Since you live so far away, he will probably not think much about them on his own.

When he is preteen or teen, he may at some point show more curiosity, and start asking questions.

I don’t want to give advice about what to say when that time comes.  Others here may have suggestions.  I would discuss  this with your T. 

But I would be guarded about what you tell him,  in the event he has contact with your dad later.  In my experience, my bpd mother can be utterly charming to others including her grandchildren.  So anything you shared with your son (eg my dad didn’t always treat me well) might not fit with future charming treatment your father could shower on him (which could be confusing to him.  Who should he believe?). 

If you stay true to your values, you will probably make the best  decisions you can in a very very difficult situation.

At the end of the day we can seek information and resources, pick the brains of those with experience, seek advice from our T, and if we are thoughtful and rational and reflective, that is the best we can do. 

If after that there are bumps or the train goes completely off the rails, we can still take comfort knowing we did our best with the info available to us at the time. 

I have had to learn that I can’t prevent every bad thing from happening.  Sometimes it’s out of my control.

Hi Seekingpeace-

You have so much going on...I am so sorry. 

I feel it is vital for you to remember that no matter what toxic messages your father attempts to deliver in writing, e-mail or by telephone, his actions have not destroyed you.  You’ve become a wonderful husband and father, no thanks to anything your father modeled. And you developed your own career path. I seem to see things differently at times.

What I see is that your father is actually feeling somehow resentful and “abandoned” by you in that sick and controlling BPD/NPD way.  With him, it’s the money.  Perhaps his father did it to him.  But you became independent of those purse strings, where your sister (GC) did not.  And he likes and needs that control.  He somehow equates that to “love”.  Since you don’t “need” him, you must not “love” him.  For his own selfish and awful reasons, he doesn’t WANT to recall the terrible emotional and verbal abuse he threw at you whilst you were growing up.  To him, his lack of (recall and) accountability just makes him mad at you.  Because he’s too ashamed to own up to it.  But if you take a step TOWARD him and allow contact with your son, it means you forgive... without him having to admit to a thing he did or said to you.  His anger is misplaced.  That’s how NPD people operate.  They do what they do and we forgive and forget.  Except we don’t.

The biggest flaw he sees in you is that you see him.  You don’t have him on a pedestal.  He knows that.  You’re going to be alright as long as you let yourself.  He most likely won’t be any different than he is now.

The one thing I don’t think you need to do or think about is Speaking at his future funeral...because the person who will be hurt the most is you.  You are a sensitive person and this sort of behavior, in front of a group of people will not heal you.  And thinking about it will not move you toward healing.  And having your beloved son witness something like this from his dad will hurt your son.  So write in your journal, periodically burn your pages and send the ashes into the sea.  Or something like that.

The final thing I wish to ponder is triangulation.  Your mom is your mom.  And although she is likely codependent with your father, she is still a separate person from him.  Just because she came to visit after his caustic letter does not mean she necessarily had any bad intentions at all.  She was being your mom.  We tend to become hyper-vigilant, but some actions can be innocent and loving.  If she can visit your sweet family knowing that the topic of your father is off limits, would that be unsettling to you?

Can you please expand on why you and/or your T believe any visit from your mom is “dangerous” to you, your wife and your child?

When you have time, I’d love to hear your thoughts on anything you’re comfortable with.  I hope I haven’t stepped over the line here.  Love and embrace your beautiful wife and son.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

You can find lots of info on the web about the narcissistic family system but as the designated scapegoat there is really nothing that you can do differently that will allow you to escape their abuse.

My kids were teens when BPD mother's behaviors became more of a concern.

I think as you spend more time in ACA, you will see that while we do talk about our parents- the focus shifts to how we manage it. This is the perspective I shared with my kids. They were old enough to understand mental illness and BPD. I was factual about that with them.

Rather than focus on BPD mother's behaviors, or vent to them, they have seen me struggle with how to have some sort of respectful relationship with her. They haven't seen the worst of her behavior but she's manipulative and has poor boundaries and they have seen that.

I have also made a point of validating their own personal boundaries- not just with her but with any relationship they have- family, friends, work, dating. One of the good things about doing ACA work is that if we learn to understand and have better boundaries, it helps in all our relationships and this includes parenting.

Kids have natural boundaries. I think what happened in our families is that they were invalidated. We had a natural reaction to a parent raging, then we were told "but you should love your mother and she loves you" but your gut feeling at the moment is to be wary of them.

My kids have that sense of discomfort around my mother. In my family, I felt shame for this, like it was my fault that I felt that way about her. I see now that this is our own natural boundaries that tell us we are being manipulated or that this person does not respect boundaries. So while I still encouraged them to be polite and respectful to her, I didn't push them to override that.

I have been open about my own struggles navigating this and they know I attend ACA groups. I want to role model that it is OK to seek help if you need it. They see that even if I don't do everything right, I try to do better. I'm careful to not triangulate- I don't want them to be sympathetic- I think it's important to be authentic with them. ( without sharing the details of the experiences with BPD mother growing up).

The good news is that BPD mother's behaviors bother them less than they do me. I realize that they didn't grow up with the same relationship I had with her.

This makes it less about the pwBPD and more about "trust your gut" around people who you feel uncomfortable with.

Thank you. This is very wise and consistent with our planned approach (and our current approach to simply state, "Wouldn't that be nice" and move the conversation on).  I hadn't thought of how important it is to be guarded - my parents did a decent job of not blasting their parents (even though we knew there were problems, they reasonably protected the grandparent>grandchild relationship), although they routinely blasted almost everyone else!

I was mostly wondering about their relationship between themselves, not including me (i.e., how to parents and GC act together, etc). This information has been more difficult to find.

It sounds like you are a loving and thoughtful parent, Notwendy. In the past year (I've been in ACA for 3.5 years), I've noticed a shift from focusing on FOO to focusing on myself - most recently Steps 6/7, as my character defects are MY problems, and in MY control, and I can ask God to change them. In part because of this awareness, I know that the program is helping.

I know my (very clever) son has seen my ACA materials - how could he not have - and I am not afraid of accepting my role. I do fear that he will blame me someday, perhaps in his own adolescent rage. Or he might not - so far there is 5% of the drama in our home, that there was in my FOO. But there is nothing about his potential anger at me other than be the best parent that I can, and love and protect him. He is a wonderful boy.

Sometimes, I see that he is more or differently gifted than I am, and it makes me feel such pride, wonder, and happiness. I know that my father sought to destroy me for those same reasons (I was more or differently gifted than he), and I have none of the jealousy or insecurity about my son. I WANT my son to be happy and himself and to succeed in whatever makes him happy. I WANT him to be prepared at the right time, and to have a wonderful life.

What is the reason you want to know this?

I'll use the CODA/ACA training I got- whenever I turn my focus on the other person(s) the question was turned on me. Why do you want to know this? This isn't to blame or be critical- but how they act with each other really doesn't involve you, but you have some reason to want to know. Nothing wrong with this but the reason- is the part that can be worked on, and so, it's important to pay attention to it.

From my own perspective, I can draw some parallels.

I assumed all was better between them when I wasn't around them.

BPD mother both treats GC better than she treats me and also worse. GC is more attached and enmeshed with her and feels more FOG. This is because there are more good experiences and more attachment. BPD impacts the most intimate relationships the most- so there's more of a swing between ups and downs with GC.

The most intimate relationship is the romantic one so this occurred between my parents as well. I don't think we can know ( and don't want to know ) all that goes on between a couple, but being around them when Dad was ill, I saw some of her verbal and emotional abusive behavior and it was awful to see. Reading the relationship board here can give you an idea of what this is like.

I do fear that he will blame me someday, perhaps in his own adolescent rage.

I understand. Teenagers blame us for everything and my kids have been critical of me for some of the boundaries I have had between them and my mother.

It highlights why the teen years are challenging even for parents who don't have BPD. Teens need parents with a strong sense of self to withstand this normal development because teens don't know who they are yet. They just know they aren't their parents and can be critical when trying to establish this. We need to role model emotional regulation for them and not be overly reactive to this.

I think with a BPD parent, this doesn't happen. One of my fears was that my kids would feel the same way about me as I felt about my mother when I was a teen. So when they started this critical stage, I was scared but it thankfully didn't happen. Also, teens can act like they have BPD sometimes ( hormones, mood swings ) so this teen behavior can feel triggering to us. But so long as the kids seem to be well adjusted- have friends, attend school, no drugs/drinking or delinquent behavior, it's probably all normal teen behavior.

If your father is more NPD than BPD, then it’s likely that he behaves like a pretty normal person around your sister, and treats her very well. She will be perceived as “all good”, and you as “all bad”, as long as she continues playing her role.

Notwendy : My kids have that sense of discomfort around my mother. In my family, I felt shame for this, like it was my fault that I felt that way about her. I see now that this is our own natural boundaries that tell us we are being manipulated or that this person does not respect boundaries

I've seen it too. At my mother's house, and in general with my mother, my daughter, who is usually a bundle of joy, very social, talking to everyone, would become a bit withdrawn for some reasons. She just wasn't the same when my mother was around, despite my mother's attemp to bond with her with over the top joy and playful mood... It makes sense that she can feel something is off with my mother, or maybe she picked up on MY anxiety too, since she was still do very young... Interesting. Thanks for pointing it out.

Seekingpeace2day,

Indeed, the fact my parent are separated is a major difference between our situation. Truly, it is a gift, because my daughter can still have a set of grandparents on my side of the family without BPD involved. For all intents and purposes, my father's wife is her grandmother on my side, and I am so very grateful because she truly is an amazing soul, an example and a dear friend to me. I truly love my stepmother. I stopped talking about my mother to my daughter... Maybe one day she will resent that I kept her from her biological grandmother, but I will then be able to explain why and have her consider that she did have two loving grandmothers (stepmother and mother in law) like everyone else, in the end... She is still "connected to my history" via my father.

I think this is part of the reason why we hurt so much for our children when we decide to cut contact with our parents... we feel like we are cutting a branch from a tree, and wonder if it was the right thing to do... What if the branch dries out and die? In trut, the tree was about to die anyway... we are cutting a branch from an ill tree to plant it elsewhere and nurture it into a healthier tree. I don't think children can truly resent us for doing that.   

I understand that your grandmothers played a significant part for you, and why you wonder what role your mother should have in your son's life, if any. I personally don't have grandparents on my father's side (they both died before I was born in a car crash, along with my aunt), and my mother resents her own parents, so while we saw them, I never felt like a relationship with them was encouraged... And truth be told, seeing how my grandmother has more than 20 grandchildren, she just couldn't be close to all of us ! lol

I do have a stepfather, which is the closest I can relate to when it comes to your mother. My stepfather was with my mother for more than 20 years. He got with her when I was 9years old, and shared our house. I had a close bond with him. When I was a teenager, I felt incredibly lonely. My father was emotionally shut down for complicated reasons, and my stepfather was the closest I had as a father sometimes. He worried for me, he cared for me, he listened to me and I spoke with him much more than I ever spoke with my mother or my father. And writing this truly makes me sad because I do love this man, and he played a significant role in who I became.

He is now about to turn 70years old and doesn't have much time left. My mother abuses him on a near constant basis and when I cut my mother off, I also lost contact with him... I blocked him too. Truth be told : in the end, I felt I had to cut contact with him too to protect him from her, in a very sick and twisted way.

My stepfather, last time I saw him, confided he almost commited suicide because of my mother's abuse, and he shut down. Now when she starts to rage, he stops listening. He has always been a rescuer to her, and truth me told, when it comes to us (her children), and like Notwendy said, this is the role he will always pick. He knows my mother has issues, but he defaults to rescuer and asks us to take care of our mother, and tells us we are too sensitive, have too big characters, basically that we persecute her and are ungrateful. He says whatever she says, whenever she is around that is ...

Deep down, I think the reason why I haven't suffered any strong backlash from my mother after cutting contact is him. And by cutting contact with him, I also protected him, because he became a victim like her, so they can process their pain together, if that makes sense... She can't resent him.

I feel that if I were to reenter contact with him, he would either : (1) welcome me , ask me to repair the relationship with my mother and suffer her abuse when she learns he is in contact with me; or (2) enter rescuer mode and treat me like the persecutor... Based on our last discussion, I think scenario 1 is more likely... But somehow, I just can't gather the courage to contact him... 

Part of me feels he is the one telling me mother to let us go, and to let us leave our life, that we are the ones in pain and that we are worst for it... he is probably telling her whatever he needs to to appease her, and to protect our independance. He always said children should be able to live their life independant of their parents... So I feel, at a distance, that my stepfather and I are trying to protect each other.

So I don't know... This is all very emotional and complicated, and I don't know what the answer is for you and your mother... But it appears to me that your mother loves you, and like my stepfather, she can see that your father is ill, but for various reasons, she chose to stay with him. Do you have reasons to believe she could hurt you, as en extension of your father to appease him? This is often the worry that arises when it comes to codependent behavior... Do you have reasons to believe seeing her could make the abuse worst for her?

Just questions to brainstorm here, as all our families are similar but still very different...

Like someone else asked (sorry I cant who), I am curious to know why your T thinks that seeing your mother, and allowing her a place in your child's life is dangerous?

I asked the question about why your T Thinks allowing your mom into your child’s life is dangerous.  I do believe your mom knows your father’s illness well.

You can re-read my entire post above, though you’re being given a ton of input, which is great.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

Gemsforeyes,

Thank you for your kindness and support. Your observations are very accurate. I have considered many of these same issues (re: $$$ and control), and there is no doubt in my mind that my father "hates" (in BPD/NPD terms) me for my independence. To him, that would have be the most major rejection - he was a finance professional and money manager, and I took my small inheritance away from his control, paid for graduate school, etc etc etc. I’d certainly have more money if he controlled it all those years, but I might not have any soul. That kind of control was to him, love. And yes, my mother told me that my paternal grandfather once told my father he was cutting him out of the will - just like my father did to me.

There is a lot for me to unpack in what you wrote.

I appreciated your thoughts re: speaking at his funeral (both that this is not helpful to focus on now, and also that being venomous is not healthy. Even thought this is some lingering resentment (how do I continue to let this go? I pray to God to take it away) although I do wonder how to honor truth and my experience).

One of the key issues, clearly, is about connection to my mother who “loves” me (in codependent terms). I am absolutely convinced that she loves me as best she can, she is aware of the extent of my father’s sickness, she is not capable or not willing to do anything differently, ever. She loves my son, supports my wife, is generous with us as she is able. (Of course, y father controls the money and obsessively limits what she spends on us - one of his obsessions/paranoias is that people are somehow trying to take his money.)

I’d love it if my mom could be part of our family and have a relationship with our son. We have some laughs when she is here (once since 2018), and she truly loves our guy. My T and I were just discussing (and ran out of time) why it is a risk to have contact with her. So, I can post again in a week or two about that, but my sense so far is that connection with my mom could feed the fantasy that things can change, or be OK - and that is a very dangerous fantasy lacking any shred of evidence. My focus needs to be on my own healing/recovery.

At the same time, IF I could ever connect with her enough that she could open up and share real memories, and answer questions from me (what were you feeling when this man eviscerated your 5 year-old son?), it could be incredibly healing for me, forever. She has told me things, on rare occasions, that reveal that she knows how sick he is, and when I said, “I can’t live this way anymore,” she replied, “I put my faith in your strength.” Of course, given her pathological people-pleasing, it’s hard to know what is real… but she has more of a clue than my father or my GC sister.

Sometimes, I long for connection with her, then at other times I am angry and repulsed by her. She abandoned herself (and her children) in service of this abusive man, who might or might not have some love somewhere inside him, but is too angry, dysregulated, and self-righteous to ever change or want to change. He is simply totally out of control.

Earlier today I was looking at a funny photo - our son was trying to help clean our new pond, and he dumped dish detergent in the water, so the entire pond and waterfalls were a huge bubble bath! I know that would make my mom happy. But I also know the dreams tell me to stay in a safe place, where I can observe from a distance.

Additional thoughts much appreciated. I’m glad I posted.

I have no doubt that your parenting and love and wisdom were major contributors to this wonderful outcome. It also places our own behavior in context - my father had already painted me black, but really I was just a teenager.

It's hard to tell. Certainly, he maintains a broad social circle of country club/cocktail party type relationships, but none of them are truly intimate. He's the smartest in the room, and these aren't exactly models of psychologically deep individuals. No judgment implied.

We love trees - so I love this metaphor. Isn't this what this "work" is all about? Saving life and healing and growing into something big and strong and beautiful.

Really good questions and thoughts. My mother would not knowingly hurt us - but she is radically powerless to protect herself (or us), and she will never cross my father. When we were kids she promised she would divorce him, but never did - she still cites, "but I decided to stay..." when trauma happens. Realistically, she was not prepared to survive independently. My grandmother once told me that my father told my mother, if you leave me I will never work another day in my life, and you will not receive one penny. So, she was terrified. Notably, her brother/my uncle also could never leave an abusive marriage. (He tuned on me and betrayed my confidence to my father when I asked, WTF is up with my Dad?) AND, my father once told me that he watched his father do horrible things to his mother, and she never did anything about it - just like him and his wife/ my mother.

So much history, so much trauma.

My wife and I had a productive counseling session today, and I am so thankful for where we are.

All thoughts welcome! -)

I was painted black as a teen and also parentified- so didn't do this with my own teens. Thankfully they are good kids, but the teen years aren't always smooth sailing. They did get angry at me at times for rules, curfews. It's not easy for children of PD parents when someone is angry at them- so that was a challenge for me at times. I think it's best for teens when a parent has a strong sense of self and can step back and say "this is normal teen behavior" rather than take it personally. I can see how a parent with BPD/NPD would have difficulty with this.

Parents with PD's (NPD and BPD) see their children as extensions of themselves. Teens push for their own independence and identity as separate people. This is their developmental task to accomplish. As controlling and NPD-ish as your father is, it makes sense this was unacceptable to him.

I understand this longing to connect with your mother. She seems to be the more emotionally accessible parent to you. This was similar to my father who took on the parenting role and I was closer to him. There were times I could speak to him about my mother but then, he could turn in an instant and align with her, as if nothing happened. Anything I said to him was shared with her.  I think what you are seeking from wanting to discuss your childhood with your mother is a validation of your reality. I am not sure that she's the one who can do this for you. There were times I thought my father could, and times he could not.

My father was also enmeshed with my mother. Ironically, he earned the income but she controlled it, and him. While he appeared to be the more functional one, he was more of an extension of her. I think for this situation to exist, he also had to suspend his sense of reality. Denial is a protective mechanism. It's hard to fathom that the parent to whom I owe my well being as a child also somehow seemed to turn off his awareness of what our mother was doing to us.

It sounds like your father did some horrible things. My mother has also been verbally and emotionally abusive but seeking validation from my father touches on his own issues. He has to have some level of denial to coexist with this. Yet, he also was the "good parent". He must have had to compartmentalize this situation. Seeking validation from him usually backfired as his tendency was to "rescue" BPD mother.

I understand your fantasy of bringing your mother into your life and have boundaries with your father. I would have liked that as well. But in actuality, he was enmeshed with my mother- and an extension of her. Your father basically owns your mother. Because of the triangle, she has dual loyalties but ultimately, your father prevails. She's completely financially and emotionally dependent on him.

Perhaps your T recognizes that your mother, as much as she can be loving, is co-dependent and that also isn't good for kids. I think when we think of abuse, we think of someone who is physically raging, violent, and while co-dependency isn't abusive in that sense it may also not be good for children either. Your father is abusive and your mother is an extension of him. Perhaps this is one reason your T is suggesting caution, at least for now. Also, there's intergenerational trauma in your family and maybe she wants you to work on yourself first, to change this for your son.

Notwendy, Thank you for sharing. There are so many similarities in the stories here in this thread. What makes you say my father is NPD-ish (rather than say BPD)? For years I refused the possibility that the has borderline tendencies, despite my T's suggestions, because NPD seemed much more accurate and perhaps palatable to me. However, he more I learned about BPD/NPD, the more this "fit." Sadly, I'd prefer BPD/NPD because the thought that he is "normal" and generous with my GC sister and only so hateful to me, really hurts. It was never fair.

Your description of my mother is spot on. She lives in a constant state of denial/disassociation, even possessing the self-awareness to describe that she "blocks out" bad memories or "takes what [good] she can get." This seems way beyond low self-esteem (and as I mentioned before, all of this made me very sick, too). Is there any healing from the drama triangle? It feels childish to ask, "Do they love me" or what will happen when they die, but of course part of me wants to know.

Today I will focus 2x on me, my wife, my son.

There can be overlap between the PD's. My mother is textbook BPD but she also has a NPD aspect to her. Her family has narcissistic tendencies.

Although there are high functioning BPD's - it's more like NPD to become rich, successful and controlling with money, lack of empathy, the "rules don't apply to me" and use people for narcissistic supply. I get that sense about your father but that doesn't negate BPD.

My BPD mother, who had not had a job herself ( married young, right out of college) has a sense of entitlement- only the best and expensive will do for her. We were not extremely wealthy, but Dad could provide for her wishes. She has to be above it all when it came to things like housework. That was for others to do for her. She even told me she felt sorry for me because I have been a hands on parent and clean up things- these are things she won't do. A sense of superiority and the rules don't apply to her. But her behavior is classic BPD and is predominant.

This is my father to a T - especially the rules don't apply to me, and using others for narcissistic supply - mixed with severe emotional dysregulation as far as his relationship with me (and In suspect others) is concerned. He is severely emotionally immature, but I think there is no question he has a PD - it's more than just immaturity.

seekingpeace2day, I'm late to the thread but wanted to say how much I identify with your family dynamics. I'm so sorry you were born into this dysfunction. I feel the pain in what you're sorting through, learning to be healthy in a family that may in fact feel threatened by those instincts.

I have had to get very clear about my inheritance and how it factors into my values and boundaries, and I suspect the same may be true for you.

I was estranged from my father for 7 years and lifted the estrangement only when I had learned how to ensure my safety, and only when I was clear with myself that nothing I do will ensure my inheritance.

Being back in my father's life may increase the chances of an inheritance, but it does not guarantee it -- it has been essential for me to know this. My father talks about his money the way some people talk about their beloved pet. How clever he is, how successful he is, how crafty he is, how good he is at managing his money, how he has more than so-and-so because he is smarter.

Money is love for him. His love is transactional.

Nothing is going to change the way he is, especially me, the family scapegoat.

From what you have shared, it sounds like you are emotionally yearning for change while intellectually telling yourself it won't happen. Does that seem accurate?

There are things I can subject myself to in my family only because I am one thousand percent certain that performing the perfect swan dive has nothing to do with the trophy.

Thank you. Kindred spirits in this thread, it seems.


Yes, I can relate. I know we will be OK. It just hurts like hell to think about. I'm actually considering posting a letter he wrote here, but it's a lot (and might not be needed).


He sounds like a piece of work. I'm sorry. And I can relate.


Of curiosity, do you have GC sibling(s)? Does your father resent you for your independence and/or success?


Yes! Not sure which emoticon best captures my ambivalence here - but yes.


Tell me more. Are you saying you tolerate a certain amount of tension or abuse, because you are not impacted by their evaluation of you?

I have a GC sibling, yes. He has just been made executor of the will for both of them, and given health care power of attorney over my mother if my father dies first. Apparently my father will be capable of managing his own health because narcissists don't get dementia.

My husband is a physician and GC has phobias that make the thought of him making health decisions a curious choice.

I don't mean to make it sound like I have not felt hurt because I have. I am also willing to let go of even healthy rescue tendencies because ultimately, these are adults who are just as accountable for their decisions as I am.

Sometimes I wonder if being the same gender as the disordered parent increases the chances of BPD simply because the pressures to not develop a separate self are so severe. While I can't say for certain whether my father has a full blown PD, he most certainly set my sibling up for one. I think GC has BPD traits at a minimum, and probably full-blown BPD.

The fact you are so differentiated and not the GC, that says a lot about your strength, though I know the cost you paid for it may have been extraordinarily painful. It can feel like small consolation when the booby prize is scapegoat.


Resentment is an understatement.  :(. It feels more like being erased.

My father skipped two grades and went to college at age 15. He was the first in his family to go to college and went on to earn an MBA from a prestigious institution. There can only be one highly educated person in the family, I have since discovered.

After high school I struggled my first year in college after getting mono. His advice was to drop out and get a secretarial job, or go to a community college. Instead, I went on to earn my master's then a phd from a prestigious R1 institution. Honestly, when I look back, perhaps I had to be estranged from him to finish my degree. I don't know that I could summon the strength to outperform his achievements had we been in contact.

Whereas I am not certain GC graduated from high school. It has never been made clear and asking would only invite abuse. I was in accelerated programs as a child and it was taboo to discuss education in our house because it set off such drama with GC, who struggled in school, both in terms of behavior and academically.

I suspect GC sensed it was taboo to achieve anything academically because it would put him in direct competition with our father. Just a guess. Today, GC works in the trades and is supporting his family living in a house well above his means that my father bought.

Recently, GC refinanced his house and there was a penalty of $7K that my father loaned him by taking it out of my son's educational trust. These actions are often explained in the context of how smart my father is with money, how principled he is, how he does everything with integrity. Yet somehow, these choices inflict maximum damage on as many people as possible, except for GC.


I think the best way to describe it is this: They see me as a one-dimensional person. I happen to know I have multiple dimensions. But I am willing to be two-dimensional (the compromise) if that means having a relationship with them.

One dimension is mostly a role. She is expected to attend birthday dinners, go to funerals, talk on the phone once in a while, attend events with friends at expensive clubs, and respond to SOS calls about health issues (my mom's).

With two dimensions, there is an acknowledgement that I seem to have a career, but we do not discuss it unless I am asking for advice. The second dimension of me guards my other dimensions. It's probably tolerated because I follow certain rules for myself that make it easier to maintain a relationship.

For example, I cannot exist in two dimension land very long so my visits are short and I avoid staying overnight, although this became trickier during Covid so I made an exception. I also don't offer much in the way of personal information, I don't ask questions about GC and his kids, nor do participate in anything that inconveniences me. I rarely if ever drink alcohol when I'm with them.

I choose to do things only if it works for me or I can ensure some way to get to safety if necessary. In two dimension land, I also make sure my son is safe and I never leave him or H alone with either of my parents. H and I have signals we use when we're in their company.

We also make a point to do something fun to help us decompress before and after a visit and if I'm sliding into choppy waters of my own volition, H knows to tug my shirt so I don't fall overboard.

I don't take strong stands on my father's choices and if I feel strongly about something (like whether my mother should be driving), I remain neutral. His view point is king.  

My historical role in the family system was the family garbage can. It has taken a lot of work to give them a much smaller target for trash.

When it comes to my (adult child) codependent mother, I treat her as an extension of my father and no longer trust her, although I do love her and while she is emotionally a child and has a good heart, she is also complicit and therefore cannot be trusted.

Her primary allegiance is to my father and that will never change, despite anything she says to the contrary. He is her captor and while she may complain, she is getting something out of the arrangement. As I get older, I can see she is expertly manipulative, but in ways that are ultimately hard to respect, especially when those same ways impact me. I don't believe she intentionally seeks to harm me, but she will triangulate me into the family dynamic when she wants me to solve a problem she (perceives she) cannot handle on her own.

For example, she is rightly worried about GC being her health care power of attorney. Historically, she would weep about this to me. I would wade into the firing squad to take any bullets so that her needs were considered. This would allow her to see what might happen if she did the same, and having seen that it ended badly, she can now comfort herself with the knowledge that made the right choice to not speak up.

Or, I would spend hours trying to help her get a lawyer or learn how things work or encourage her to make decisions for herself, only to have her do nothing except revel in the attention and bait me into thinking she was finally going to do something for herself that made a difference.

I now radically accept that my father and mother are two sides of the same illness. Narcissism on one side and pathologic codependence on the other. They are primarily living in one dimension, maybe two dimensional at best, and if there are other dimensions to them, I doubt they will ever be revealed to me.

I will admit to one thing that I'm still not sure is healthy, but I do it anyway. This is probably, on some level, where I hope for an inheritance.

In retrospect, I can probably do this without losing myself because the estrangement did introduce something into our dynamic that has had a silver lining, which is their fear that it might happen again. Now that I've done it once, I could do it again.

Being estranged from me was unpleasant because it reflected badly on them in their social network. I truly believe that is what drives them to stay in contact with me despite having done something considered so egregious and unforgivable. There is some freedom in being the scapegoat.

So what I do now is this: I blow smoke up my father's @ss.  *)

The way I tolerate hearing the same narcissistic stories over and over, in which he is the smartest guy, is to tell myself a story while he's talking. It's probably not entirely healthy but I stumbled on it as a way to be with my mom. When you said you sometimes feel repulsed by your mother, I felt I knew what you meant.

My mother is sweet, kind, social and playful. She's also terribly abused and treated like a child, both of which she tolerates as though it's her due.

She is also self-absorbed and sheltered to a degree I find remarkable. She is not curious, and she's not interesting to listen to, though she talks a lot. She tells terribly dull stories about people I don't know and the only thing that seems to matter is whether someone is sitting upright within earshot, so they can find her delightful, which is the highest compliment she could receive.

This shallowness was hard to bear while being the brunt of violence well into my 20s from GC. I could've used a real parent to help me survive.

It takes tremendous powers of concentration to remain engaged or interested in her stories, so I started describing her conversations as though I were interpreting for someone.

"This is a story about a person -- we don't know her name yet -- who is the friend of someone. Or wait, no, it's a cousin. We don't have the names yet, but we do know that this person apparently loves warm cashews and ate a whole bowl and didn't leave any for anyone else, so no more cashews when that person comes over."

This could go on for 20 minutes.

I do something similar now with my father, except I ask him questions about his exploits. It's sort of a form of validation, blowing smoke.

At 80, he repeats roughly the same 10-15 stories. I don't interject anything about myself or correct things he assumes about my understanding. Like you, I'm at the pinnacle of my field and can write my own job descriptions. I present at conferences and I'm published and honestly, blah blah blah. Having a boatload of narcissism in my family has taught me to value what really matters and achievements are not it. I wish I could feel fulfilled by some of the things I've accomplished but I think that is one of the things I can't do, having come from a narcissistic family.

I recently decided to not follow my company once it was acquired and took some time to weigh what I want to do next.

My father has been involved in acquisitions and he will discuss what my company did wrong, how he would've done it, how they should've done what he did, what I should do, why I made the wrong choice. To him, the only thing that could possibly explain why I am not currently working is that they probably didn't want me, and I cannot get a job because I didn't yet get his advice, which is priceless.

So I tell myself a story while he's talking. It's a bit harder with him to not devolve into satire.

It's probably a coping mechanism but if I'm biologically wired to crave a family and this is the best one I was able to get, I figure I have to come up with a way to make it work. The pressure to be in contact with family was so immense during estrangement, so I tell myself that as long as I'm not compromising my values, and no one (including me) is getting hurt, it's part of the package.

A handful of times things have become abusive and I was disappointed that I didn't catch things in time. But I have better recovery skills and try to learn from the episodes that don't go well. I think the saving grace is radical acceptance so that I don't get hurt believing that things will be different.

I spent decades yearning to be seen as a multi-dimensional person and it is oddly liberating to realize that is not in the cards with them.

@livednlearned, Thank you for sharing your powerful story. I am so sorry for the hurt you have suffered. There is much to which I can relate (such as a phd from an R1 institution, lol), and I look forward to responding. Right now, though, I am going to be with my wife and son. More to follow soon.

@livednlearned, I seem to have goofed the forum software.

In the interim:

How did you learn radical acceptance?

Where/how did your learn "dimensions" of people? This is a wonderful and helpful paradigm!

LivedNLearned might have a different answer but for me: I don't think you can "learn" radical acceptance.

It is something you feel, and would likely take place just before you are ready to grieve the father you never had.

I personally "killed my mother" once. I had finally accepted who she was, what the dysfunctions were, and that I couldn't change anything except myself... And I am still grieving, as it seems to come in waves.

It took me some time to reconnect to my feelings, like you I am mostly "in my head" trying to understand things rationally (I might be off, but this is how I perceive you through your writing)... But this is something we have to  to truly feel, and express through crying, raging, depression, exhaustion... It has to get worst before it gets better.

Lnl, we have some parallels. My description of how my parents see me is as a canvas that BPD mother painted her projections on. They don't see beyond that. Similar to the one dimension you describe. Also, when I visit, I go "invisible"- and neutral and they just project what they project. I also keep visits short.

Their focus was on GC, but I also achieved academically. They did want me to go to college. I went to an affordable state college - at the time, due to knowing my Dad had financial issues, the risk of BPD mother cutting me off financially, and also it allowed me maximal financial independence at the time to not be completely reliant on them for school expenses.

I always assumed that if there was a will, they'd leave everything to GC. They didn't tell me this, it was a hunch. I knew that GC was executor. When Dad passed away, he left everything to BPD mother. Later on, BPD mother asked me to go to the lawyer's office with her to sign some related papers. There was a will, and I think a POA form but I don't recall the details because where I was supposed to sign was not my name but one of my mother's relatives and I had a moment of shock and despair that she'd choose them over me.

The lawyer had to revise it before I could sign it.

To me, this had nothing to do with finances. It was something about being written off- on paper that was shocking because it showed me that she really didn't see me as the person I am. Her children are the ones who have her best interest at heart and she'd choose a distant relative over me?


While I know that BPD mother probably did this in a moment of dysregulation, and changed her mind later, the fact that she would actually do this was written on paper. Did she not know how hurtful this was? Or did she not care? No, it was because she couldn't see who I am.

Radical acceptance doesn't change how we behave. We have to behave according to our own values, no matter what. This didn't change that I remain polite to my mother but it confirmed to me that I had no way to control how she sees me. I think my fantasy was " if I could be good enough, then they could see me as good enough" and really did try to please her, to be "good enough" for my parents to see me.

Radical acceptance meant knowing they are going to think and see according to them but that I don't have to look to them for approval or validation of who I am. I need to act according to my own values.

Riv3rW0lf I am indeed more thinking than feeling as a type, but I am my best when I have both reasoned (the best I can) and felt my feelings. Feeling my feelings is, as you note, the relatively less developed skill. When I received the gloating cc email, I just lay in bed and told myself, "This is what abandonment feels like, this is what blame feels like," and so on.

I have moments of the kind of experience/feeling/awareness that you describe. That is why I have disengaged with my FOO - because I know much more then before "who is who and what is what." I have ample evidence (including a lifetime of experience and also dreams, to which I pay attention) that I am an outsider in that system. My father cannot see me at all, and my mother sees me clearly but still marches on with my father. My father's rage is not about me - it is about him - but still he rages and blames me. and in the past few years there has been an active smear campaign. He has elevated my brother-in-law (GC's husband) to a prince and goes on and on about him, never mentioning me. Of course the lies hurt, even though in reality I don't much like or respect the people in his shallow social circle or care what they think... it still hurts.

It is painful because they are getting older (almost 80) and the chance for any relationship is so small - but what else can I do? That is both rhetorical and serious question. I feel like there is nothing at all that I can do. Certainly I cannot initiate contact (for what - to apologize for his beating the sh#t out of me, insulting my wife, ignoring our son?). I did invite myself there for a 20h visit right before COVID, and he wanted to fight me the entire time. I made it out without incident, but it took a great deal of support from my ACA sponsor and preparation and all of my skill and focus. And, for me no alcohol even though he was drinking wine like a baby on a bottle.

We used to visit them a few times (say 1x every 2 years) - these visits would be vtense and not relaxing - and felt like we always had to invite ourselves, my mother being thrilled, and my father begrudging. Again, GC visits 4x/year and seems perfectly content. I remember how disappointed she was when she learned our son was scheduled to be born first. Her words to me were, "Did mom and dad tell you what we gave dad for his birthday?" referring to her pregnancy news. I hope my nephew survives - but he is simply a pawn between my GC sister and father. My father insists on a given nickname ("Captain") and before the boys were born would vent that he will never be called "grandpa" or"grandfather," which is how my son addressed him. He used to sign his letters "grandfather" and most recently signed "captain." He is obsessed with image.

I've certainly cried some and grieved some, and posting here opens some of the wounds so I probably sound upset. But as long as I don't hear from them, it's manageable. Then he cc's me (abuses) on a gloating email, and it stings.

A much younger cousin is planning a wedding, and it's soo difficult to imagine our attending. In some ways missing it would be a bummer, because my son does not know my extended family. But in other ways not attending could be a brilliant act of self-protection, and protecting my son. I will not allow my father to have both grandsons together - our son is very bright and sensitive, and he would sense the different treatment immediately. My priority is my son's safety and well-being, not my father's fantasy.

I know this: there is nothing, nothing, nothing on earth that I can do to make them think differently of me. I am 1000% clear about this - and still growing clearer, thanks to ACA, T, this posting, etc. So, I've done my best to stop trying to engage/appease them and instead focus on ME and what I can control/change. As I've posted here (and also to keep reminding myself), the best thing for me to do right now is observe from a safe distance. There is nothing else I can do, except pray (which I do that too).

Is this radical acceptance? I don't know, but I am soo much further along than ever before. And I am grateful for that. Thank you.

I can relate to much of what you post, Notwendy.

When my sister was married (very expensive), my father pulled me aside and said he was modifying his will to balance out the expense. I of course thanked him. Then he asked me to sign his will documents, and I asked about the adjustment - BIG mistake. He will not be accountable, ever, and raged at me. I was again never asked to sign the will and that was 15 years ago. He has since said things like, "We do not have a financial relationship; if we ever develop a different kind of relationship..." Last year he wrote an incredibly venemous letter, following my clumsy but respectful boundary setting, telling me that "This is not the last straw" and that I would receive a fixed amount of money but never any assets. I assume he was referring to a generation skipping trust. But how can you trust anything this man says? And what will he do for GC?

The sick or sad part is that I believe he loves me. I invited him to a T session when I was 21, and my polymath T told me: 1) you will be OK, 2) your sister got it much worse, 3) your father loves you, 4) this is all your father's stuff, 5) I think your father is an alcoholic, and 6) your father will always see you as discardable - this will never change and never forget it. Pretty darn prescient.

your father will always see you as discardable

This- and I suspected this is how my mother felt but I didn't think my father would. Yet, he did it too, probably following her, but that doesn't change that he did. But as long as he was alive, I continued to have hope.

With BPD mother, I don't have hope of her being able to perceive me as more than her projections.

It is a conflict of emotions due to her age. My elderly BPD mother lives a distance from me. Under other circumstances, I'd have brought her closer and helped with her care. However, I know that she'd completely exploit me, and that I would crumble emotionally.

I know this because this is how she has treated me when I visit. We also didn't visit during the Covid lockdown but once she was able to be vaccinated we felt safer and planned a nice visit. I assumed she'd be happy about it but if she was, I wouldn't know. I was in tears most of the time from her verbal and emotional abuse. When I got home, I had difficulty sleeping for several weeks after that.

It’s interesting - being the same sex ads my father, I definitely developed so much sickness. Thankfully, I am differentiated from him and have had strong support to become my own person, which I still am working on. But there is no question that some of my greatest growth is in learning how to relate like a healthy adult, not based on narcissist/borderline patterns that were the models that I had as a child.

Thank you.

Yes, it does feel like being erased. I had a dream recently where my father was writing a family scrapbook, and I was not anywhere in it, not even in the “bad” or “not proud” sections. Just totally absent.


These sound like smart strategies to play the game and work within the family power structure. It was only during my last visit that I did not drink alcohol, and I can never do that again with them. And definitely, letting him talk without commenting is genius - but so unsatisfying and not real relationship.

As you have read, I’m still undecided on this. My mother keeps so many secrets, I do not know if she tells my father everything or not. She is the last thread of my connection to my FOO. On one hand, we suffered a great deal together. And she seems to know how sick my father is. OTOH, she is a 50/50 partner in the madness, and his PR agent, defense attorney, and everything else. Hence my intermittent repulsion.

I feel the same way about my parents. Once, I went to Italy to visit them - I paid for my own ticket, of course. The restaurant we went to for dinner had a private party, and my father lost it on my mother. (He blames everyone else for experiences that he does not like.) My mother did not see me, but I watched her scuffle her feet, staring at the pavement, telling herself, “This is all your fault, this is all your fault.” It was sad and tragic and disturbing. I never told her I saw this.



I can relate. Although it’s been years since we’ve visited or spoken, I’ve had visits where I literally just ask my father more and questions, and he just eats it up. I mean, he will answer on and on and never once ask about anyone else (or me). It is so absurd and exhausting that I’ve wondered how he cannot realize what is happening. There is no pleasure in these “conversations” for me, but they are incredibly effective. I suppose it’s like managing a conversation with a child.


Congratulations! You have earned it. I hope you are able to savor that, even though your family cannot see.

I am so sorry this happened. I can relate. These experiences also make me ask myself, Is this worth it? Why would I subject myself to that? It's just a horrible circumstance because 1) the abuse is real, and 2) there is nothing, nothing I can do. The only worse thing would be lack of clarity. So, I'm going to continue to observe from a safe place, for now.

I received the gloating Europe email two weeks ago, and my nervous system is still somewhat activated. The good news is that this recovery is much faster than it ever would have been before, and I used my tools: non-dominant handwriting, ACA/sponsor, T, even posting here.

Well to put it into perspective- can you even imagine a trip with your father to anywhere? He'd treat you the same way in Europe as anywhere else.

I understand it's hurtful to see he took GC and not you, but in reality, you wouldn't want this.

I understand the emotionality of the emails. My mother's FOO sends group emails to each other. It became embarrassing to BPD mother to not have news about children and grandchildren and so she began to backtrack on this and forwarded an email to me. I noticed that all other family members were included in the group email but I was not.

She then asked me "did you enjoy hearing about your family?" to which I replied "I am not a part of this family. They didn't include me"

I still have contact with them but I am polite, cordial, and distant. There is a member of that family getting married in a bit. I am not invited and quite happy to not be invited. BPD mother is invited and I suspect GC will go with her. Even if they did send me an invitation, I would not consider it to be sincere and would not attend. This is my own boundary. I don't trust the connection. I don't think they consider me to be "in their circle".

If there's one regret is that the cousins do like each other. I think my kids wish they knew their cousins better on that side but as adults, they are able to make the connection if they wish. I have fond memories of my own cousins, and really care about them but mostly they exclude me and seem to be enmeshed with my mother. I always wished I could be a part of their connections but it feels a bit like being the wanna be kid with the "cool crowd" at school and being allowed to hang out with them sometimes but not ever really getting to be one of them.

It sure sounds like you have reached a state of radical acceptance a while ago... If you hadn't, there would be a lot more disillusions in your posts. You seem aware of the reality of who your father is, and while part of us always "hope", you seem connected to your healthy inner adult, whom can protect you and help you manage your expectations.

To me, this is radical acceptance. You are working on yourself, for yourself, not in the hope of finding peace with your father... But in the hope of finding your own inner peace.

I like your idea of telling yourself what emotions you were going through. I might have to give it a try next time I am in tornado mode.

Thanks for the validation. I agree that I have a pretty good sense. The struggle feels to exist in letting go, not ruminating, hoping... and living our lives.

By coincidence, I just spoke with an 85yo neighbor to the house where I grew up, where I have not lived since I left for college. I trust her, but am not naive. She was always in my corner and is also long-time social friends with my parents. She honed right in and asked me about my parents and knew there was difficulty.

Apparently: 1) my paternal grandfather was known around town as a serious alcoholic (which I only generally knew), 2) my mother has ALWAYS defended my father, even when he says that red is blue, 3) when we were kids, she knew there was dysfunction - her impressions were that 1) my father wanted my mother all to himself, and didn't really want me or my sister around, and 2) the abuse/dysfunction was directed at both me and my sister. (This is true; there were times when I was the GC). She also told me about a time when my father sent a viscous and drunken self-righteous email to social friends, when they did something he did not like. The email mortified my mother and was so out of line that it was circulated around the social group, etc. Even so, my neighbor (clearly a rescuer) did not know that my father was an alcoholic, and I declined to answer when she asked. She said that she believed my parents wished it were different and that my mother always loved me and my sister. I tried not to regress into victimhood and gossip.

Most important and sadly, she spoke to my mother not long ago, who was telling her about spending time with my GC sister's family. My neighbor asked about me and my family. My mother's response was that I had put distance between my sister and me - that it had been my initiative "made my choice" - and that is why they spend time with GC sister's family, and not mine. This is the first instance I have ever heard of my mother blaming me, and that hurts. But of course it should not be surprising that my mother repeats the party line and defends herself and my father, even at the cost of not telling the truth.

Neighbor's perspective was that we should not associate with them (although she said of course, send your birthday cards and so on - we haven't done this in many years), should not grovel, should not let them ruin our lives, should stand tall, and if they come to us have open arms - was both accurate and also felt overly simplistic. I share this because it is a useful perspective from someone with a lot of lived experience, without insight into BPD or family dynamics.

These relationships are so painful, and dangerous. Nothing I ever did, helped - and I tried it all (anger, apologizing for their actions, excessive ass kissing, worldly achievements). No matter what I did, it only got worse. In terms of my FOO, all I can do is stay safe and observe.

Notwendy, Thanks. Can you see any situation where contact would be safe or desirable? I wonder if sending a Christmas card or photo of our son is too risky and would only invite more punishment. It feels truly damned if I do, damned if I don't.

That is hard to know. I think all your decisions need to come from your values and not their reaction or fear of it. If you feel that sending a Christmas card is according to your values then send it. If you don't want to send one but do so out of FOG, or to soothe them in some way, then that's probably being more co-dependent than genuine.

One way I can tell the difference is how I feel about it. I get an icky feeling when I am doing something I don't want to do but because I feel obligated or afraid.

As to what they tell others about you, you can't control that. It's socially against the norm to have estrangement between parent and their adult child. They can't acknowledge that they may have something to do with this, especially to others. The only way they can avoid being blamed is to make it all your fault/decision. But just because they say something doesn't make it true.

Thank you, just what I needed to hear.

The hard way  :(

I think the concept originates from DBT via Marsha Linehan (who developed DBT and is herself someone who has been dx'd with BPD), and she brought it over to DBT from Buddhism. I think of radical acceptance as accepting life as it is, saying yes to what exists, not trying to change it. There may be a lot more depth to it than that, especially when threaded together with the concept of dialectics (e.g. two seemingly opposite things can both be true).

Applying that to family has been a challenge because of the deep yearning to feel validated from the same people who can't.

For me, radical acceptance is the very profound recognition that my family members don't see me, therefore they cannot validate me. I am one dimension. They are tolerating me in two dimensions, but mostly because I have found ways to make that dimension tolerable using different skills and boundaries. The third dimension is a mystery to them and in all likelihood is too threatening because it would require intimacy, something that is largely foreign and to be fought at all costs. Radical acceptance is giving up the dream that this will ever be otherwise.  

Related to this is something that may go together with radical acceptance, or at least make it easier to manifest the way Riv3rW0lf described, as a feeling -- is body-based trauma work similar to what Bessel van der Kolk talks about in The Body Keeps the Score.  

There are multiple paths to get there, but I did somatic experiencing therapy (SET) work (https://traumahealing.org/), which focuses on body-based trauma therapy. It did powerful things to help undue triggers buried in my nervous system. There is radical acceptance, and then there is healing. For me, the two go together.


It's just a way I explain to myself what I'm doing as I work at a relationship in which there is both radical acceptance and abuse.

And to be candid, it is a nonstop challenge  :(

The first hint of realizing my parents didn't "see" me was as a teen. I was at a friend's house and she was arguing with her parents. I actually thought they had a point to why they were upset. I could see how hurt they were. I came home upset about what I saw. I felt sorry for the parents and thought my friend was being unreasonable. I tried to explain why I was upset and they looked at me with blank stares. They didn't get it. They didn't see what I was trying to share with them.

But I didn't have radical acceptance until my father got sick and passed away. I understand they were struggling with the situation but I was struggling emotionally too.  The way they treated me and the way BPD mother treated me was so emotionally cold, I realized that nobody who knew me would have done that.

It's not that I hold on to resentment or anger at BPD mother. Radical acceptance means not having expectations of people that they can't meet- it means not expecting them them to be different from who they are. It means seeing them accurately. I know now that anyone who could treat me like she did has no idea who I am, or if they do, is so devoid of empathy and this is who they are.

I can relate to not feeling seen or known.

How did you let go of the resentment? I've been praying for God to remove this as a character defect, and it helps.

It takes time and work. Sometimes I feel angry at her, but it's best to not hold on to that.

I think it took being less codependent and less emotionally reactive to her.

It's not the same as forgetting. The way she behaved at the time of my father's passing did change how I saw the relationship. Truly, anyone who knew me would know that the things she did were probably some of the most hurtful things anyone could do, especially at a time like that. I had already been losing hope that there was the possibility of a relationship with her that was more than just meeting her needs but I know now that she can't be that person.

If you ever took lifeguard classes, the first thing they teach you is to not let the drowning person grab you. They are panicking and will take you down with them. One of the main parts of the class was practicing the different ways to get out of someone's grip on you if they grab you, and how to help them safely. But the first lesson is to keep yourself safe and not let them drown you too.

I feel like my mother is an emotionally drowning person. She doesn't think about hurting anyone else because just getting through the day is hard enough for her. A person who is drowning is panicking. They will take you down in that panic. But what use is it to resent them for what they do in that state of mind?

Dad remains a mystery to me. I think on some level he did care about me, but he was so codependent on my mother, it just took all his attention, but as much as he meant to me, I don't know if it was the same for him. I mean I meant something, but he was my Daddy and Dads are heroes to their daughters and yet, his main focus was on my mother. I think it's important to love a spouse but usually both parents also love their kids too but this seemed more about my mother whose needs were priority.  I think it helped me to not resent him to have empathy for what he was going through.

Trying to understand my mother was harder, but I suspect from her behavior that she may have been abused.

Your father may appear all powerful to you. Dads seem that way to kids. Underneath his grand facade is a miserable pathetic person who has to put you down to feel the least bit good about himself.

We can't love anyone if we don't love ourselves. I don't think my mother can love herself. I think people who act like your father must at some level hate themselves and he projects that on to you. Although it feels hurtful, you are the one who is blessed. You can love people and make genuine connections. You feel secure enough that you don't need to put others down to feel good about yourself, and you don't need to drink yourself numb to get relief from your feelings. From this standpoint, I think it is possible to be empathetic for the awful feelings someone like your father has.
 

I just reread this thread from August and wanted to say thank you to all the members who posted support. Your words remain remarkably insightful, helpful, and kind.