Healing from scapegoating

[Depression = 72% of members]

I do fear that he will blame me someday, perhaps in his own adolescent rage.

I understand. Teenagers blame us for everything and my kids have been critical of me for some of the boundaries I have had between them and my mother.

It highlights why the teen years are challenging even for parents who don't have BPD. Teens need parents with a strong sense of self to withstand this normal development because teens don't know who they are yet. They just know they aren't their parents and can be critical when trying to establish this. We need to role model emotional regulation for them and not be overly reactive to this.

I think with a BPD parent, this doesn't happen. One of my fears was that my kids would feel the same way about me as I felt about my mother when I was a teen. So when they started this critical stage, I was scared but it thankfully didn't happen. Also, teens can act like they have BPD sometimes ( hormones, mood swings ) so this teen behavior can feel triggering to us. But so long as the kids seem to be well adjusted- have friends, attend school, no drugs/drinking or delinquent behavior, it's probably all normal teen behavior.

[Notwendy]

I do fear that he will blame me someday, perhaps in his own adolescent rage.

I understand. Teenagers blame us for everything and my kids have been critical of me for some of the boundaries I have had between them and my mother.

It highlights why the teen years are challenging even for parents who don't have BPD. Teens need parents with a strong sense of self to withstand this normal development because teens don't know who they are yet. They just know they aren't their parents and can be critical when trying to establish this. We need to role model emotional regulation for them and not be overly reactive to this.

I think with a BPD parent, this doesn't happen. One of my fears was that my kids would feel the same way about me as I felt about my mother when I was a teen. So when they started this critical stage, I was scared but it thankfully didn't happen. Also, teens can act like they have BPD sometimes ( hormones, mood swings ) so this teen behavior can feel triggering to us. But so long as the kids seem to be well adjusted- have friends, attend school, no drugs/drinking or delinquent behavior, it's probably all normal teen behavior.

[Couscous]

If your father is more NPD than BPD, then it’s likely that he behaves like a pretty normal person around your sister, and treats her very well. She will be perceived as “all good”, and you as “all bad”, as long as she continues playing her role.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Notwendy : My kids have that sense of discomfort around my mother. In my family, I felt shame for this, like it was my fault that I felt that way about her. I see now that this is our own natural boundaries that tell us we are being manipulated or that this person does not respect boundaries

I've seen it too. At my mother's house, and in general with my mother, my daughter, who is usually a bundle of joy, very social, talking to everyone, would become a bit withdrawn for some reasons. She just wasn't the same when my mother was around, despite my mother's attemp to bond with her with over the top joy and playful mood... It makes sense that she can feel something is off with my mother, or maybe she picked up on MY anxiety too, since she was still do very young... Interesting. Thanks for pointing it out.

Seekingpeace2day,

Indeed, the fact my parent are separated is a major difference between our situation. Truly, it is a gift, because my daughter can still have a set of grandparents on my side of the family without BPD involved. For all intents and purposes, my father's wife is her grandmother on my side, and I am so very grateful because she truly is an amazing soul, an example and a dear friend to me. I truly love my stepmother. I stopped talking about my mother to my daughter... Maybe one day she will resent that I kept her from her biological grandmother, but I will then be able to explain why and have her consider that she did have two loving grandmothers (stepmother and mother in law) like everyone else, in the end... She is still "connected to my history" via my father.

I think this is part of the reason why we hurt so much for our children when we decide to cut contact with our parents... we feel like we are cutting a branch from a tree, and wonder if it was the right thing to do... What if the branch dries out and die? In trut, the tree was about to die anyway... we are cutting a branch from an ill tree to plant it elsewhere and nurture it into a healthier tree. I don't think children can truly resent us for doing that.   

I understand that your grandmothers played a significant part for you, and why you wonder what role your mother should have in your son's life, if any. I personally don't have grandparents on my father's side (they both died before I was born in a car crash, along with my aunt), and my mother resents her own parents, so while we saw them, I never felt like a relationship with them was encouraged... And truth be told, seeing how my grandmother has more than 20 grandchildren, she just couldn't be close to all of us !

I do have a stepfather, which is the closest I can relate to when it comes to your mother. My stepfather was with my mother for more than 20 years. He got with her when I was 9years old, and shared our house. I had a close bond with him. When I was a teenager, I felt incredibly lonely. My father was emotionally shut down for complicated reasons, and my stepfather was the closest I had as a father sometimes. He worried for me, he cared for me, he listened to me and I spoke with him much more than I ever spoke with my mother or my father. And writing this truly makes me sad because I do love this man, and he played a significant role in who I became.

He is now about to turn 70years old and doesn't have much time left. My mother abuses him on a near constant basis and when I cut my mother off, I also lost contact with him... I blocked him too. Truth be told : in the end, I felt I had to cut contact with him too to protect him from her, in a very sick and twisted way.

My stepfather, last time I saw him, confided he almost commited suicide because of my mother's abuse, and he shut down. Now when she starts to rage, he stops listening. He has always been a rescuer to her, and truth me told, when it comes to us (her children), and like Notwendy said, this is the role he will always pick. He knows my mother has issues, but he defaults to rescuer and asks us to take care of our mother, and tells us we are too sensitive, have too big characters, basically that we persecute her and are ungrateful. He says whatever she says, whenever she is around that is ...

Deep down, I think the reason why I haven't suffered any strong backlash from my mother after cutting contact is him. And by cutting contact with him, I also protected him, because he became a victim like her, so they can process their pain together, if that makes sense... She can't resent him.

I feel that if I were to reenter contact with him, he would either : (1) welcome me , ask me to repair the relationship with my mother and suffer her abuse when she learns he is in contact with me; or (2) enter rescuer mode and treat me like the persecutor... Based on our last discussion, I think scenario 1 is more likely... But somehow, I just can't gather the courage to contact him... 

Part of me feels he is the one telling me mother to let us go, and to let us leave our life, that we are the ones in pain and that we are worst for it... he is probably telling her whatever he needs to to appease her, and to protect our independance. He always said children should be able to live their life independant of their parents... So I feel, at a distance, that my stepfather and I are trying to protect each other.

So I don't know... This is all very emotional and complicated, and I don't know what the answer is for you and your mother... But it appears to me that your mother loves you, and like my stepfather, she can see that your father is ill, but for various reasons, she chose to stay with him. Do you have reasons to believe she could hurt you, as en extension of your father to appease him? This is often the worry that arises when it comes to codependent behavior... Do you have reasons to believe seeing her could make the abuse worst for her?

Just questions to brainstorm here, as all our families are similar but still very different...

Like someone else asked (sorry I cant who), I am curious to know why your T thinks that seeing your mother, and allowing her a place in your child's life is dangerous?

[Gemsforeyes]

I asked the question about why your T Thinks allowing your mom into your child’s life is dangerous.  I do believe your mom knows your father’s illness well.

You can re-read my entire post above, though you’re being given a ton of input, which is great.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[seekingpeace2day]

Hi Seekingpeace-

You have so much going on...I am so sorry. 

Gemsforeyes,

Thank you for your kindness and support. Your observations are very accurate. I have considered many of these same issues (re: $$$ and control), and there is no doubt in my mind that my father "hates" (in BPD/NPD terms) me for my independence. To him, that would have be the most major rejection - he was a finance professional and money manager, and I took my small inheritance away from his control, paid for graduate school, etc etc etc. I’d certainly have more money if he controlled it all those years, but I might not have any soul. That kind of control was to him, love. And yes, my mother told me that my paternal grandfather once told my father he was cutting him out of the will - just like my father did to me.

There is a lot for me to unpack in what you wrote.

I appreciated your thoughts re: speaking at his funeral (both that this is not helpful to focus on now, and also that being venomous is not healthy. Even thought this is some lingering resentment (how do I continue to let this go? I pray to God to take it away) although I do wonder how to honor truth and my experience).

One of the key issues, clearly, is about connection to my mother who “loves” me (in codependent terms). I am absolutely convinced that she loves me as best she can, she is aware of the extent of my father’s sickness, she is not capable or not willing to do anything differently, ever. She loves my son, supports my wife, is generous with us as she is able. (Of course, y father controls the money and obsessively limits what she spends on us - one of his obsessions/paranoias is that people are somehow trying to take his money.)

I’d love it if my mom could be part of our family and have a relationship with our son. We have some laughs when she is here (once since 2018), and she truly loves our guy. My T and I were just discussing (and ran out of time) why it is a risk to have contact with her. So, I can post again in a week or two about that, but my sense so far is that connection with my mom could feed the fantasy that things can change, or be OK - and that is a very dangerous fantasy lacking any shred of evidence. My focus needs to be on my own healing/recovery.

At the same time, IF I could ever connect with her enough that she could open up and share real memories, and answer questions from me (what were you feeling when this man eviscerated your 5 year-old son?), it could be incredibly healing for me, forever. She has told me things, on rare occasions, that reveal that she knows how sick he is, and when I said, “I can’t live this way anymore,” she replied, “I put my faith in your strength.” Of course, given her pathological people-pleasing, it’s hard to know what is real… but she has more of a clue than my father or my GC sister.

Sometimes, I long for connection with her, then at other times I am angry and repulsed by her. She abandoned herself (and her children) in service of this abusive man, who might or might not have some love somewhere inside him, but is too angry, dysregulated, and self-righteous to ever change or want to change. He is simply totally out of control.

Earlier today I was looking at a funny photo - our son was trying to help clean our new pond, and he dumped dish detergent in the water, so the entire pond and waterfalls were a huge bubble bath! I know that would make my mom happy. But I also know the dreams tell me to stay in a safe place, where I can observe from a distance.

Additional thoughts much appreciated. I’m glad I posted.

[seekingpeace2day]

We need to role model emotional regulation for them and not be overly reactive to this.

So when they started this critical stage, I was scared but it thankfully didn't happen.

I have no doubt that your parenting and love and wisdom were major contributors to this wonderful outcome. It also places our own behavior in context - my father had already painted me black, but really I was just a teenager.

[seekingpeace2day]

If your father is more NPD than BPD, then it’s likely that he behaves like a pretty normal person around your sister, and treats her very well. She will be perceived as “all good”, and you as “all bad”, as long as she continues playing her role.

It's hard to tell. Certainly, he maintains a broad social circle of country club/cocktail party type relationships, but none of them are truly intimate. He's the smartest in the room, and these aren't exactly models of psychologically deep individuals. No judgment implied.

[seekingpeace2day]

I think this is part of the reason why we hurt so much for our children when we decide to cut contact with our parents... we feel like we are cutting a branch from a tree, and wonder if it was the right thing to do... What if the branch dries out and die? In trut, the tree was about to die anyway... we are cutting a branch from an ill tree to plant it elsewhere and nurture it into a healthier tree. I don't think children can truly resent us for doing that.   

We love trees - so I love this metaphor. Isn't this what this "work" is all about? Saving life and healing and growing into something big and strong and beautiful.

[seekingpeace2day]

But it appears to me that your mother loves you, and like my stepfather, she can see that your father is ill, but for various reasons, she chose to stay with him. Do you have reasons to believe she could hurt you, as en extension of your father to appease him? This is often the worry that arises when it comes to codependent behavior... Do you have reasons to believe seeing her could make the abuse worst for her?

Just questions to brainstorm here, as all our families are similar but still very different...

Like someone else asked (sorry I cant who), I am curious to know why your T thinks that seeing your mother, and allowing her a place in your child's life is dangerous?

Really good questions and thoughts. My mother would not knowingly hurt us - but she is radically powerless to protect herself (or us), and she will never cross my father. When we were kids she promised she would divorce him, but never did - she still cites, "but I decided to stay..." when trauma happens. Realistically, she was not prepared to survive independently. My grandmother once told me that my father told my mother, if you leave me I will never work another day in my life, and you will not receive one penny. So, she was terrified. Notably, her brother/my uncle also could never leave an abusive marriage. (He tuned on me and betrayed my confidence to my father when I asked, WTF is up with my Dad?) AND, my father once told me that he watched his father do horrible things to his mother, and she never did anything about it - just like him and his wife/ my mother.

So much history, so much trauma.

My wife and I had a productive counseling session today, and I am so thankful for where we are.

All thoughts welcome! -)

[Notwendy]

I was painted black as a teen and also parentified- so didn't do this with my own teens. Thankfully they are good kids, but the teen years aren't always smooth sailing. They did get angry at me at times for rules, curfews. It's not easy for children of PD parents when someone is angry at them- so that was a challenge for me at times. I think it's best for teens when a parent has a strong sense of self and can step back and say "this is normal teen behavior" rather than take it personally. I can see how a parent with BPD/NPD would have difficulty with this.

Parents with PD's (NPD and BPD) see their children as extensions of themselves. Teens push for their own independence and identity as separate people. This is their developmental task to accomplish. As controlling and NPD-ish as your father is, it makes sense this was unacceptable to him.

I understand this longing to connect with your mother. She seems to be the more emotionally accessible parent to you. This was similar to my father who took on the parenting role and I was closer to him. There were times I could speak to him about my mother but then, he could turn in an instant and align with her, as if nothing happened. Anything I said to him was shared with her.  I think what you are seeking from wanting to discuss your childhood with your mother is a validation of your reality. I am not sure that she's the one who can do this for you. There were times I thought my father could, and times he could not.

My father was also enmeshed with my mother. Ironically, he earned the income but she controlled it, and him. While he appeared to be the more functional one, he was more of an extension of her. I think for this situation to exist, he also had to suspend his sense of reality. Denial is a protective mechanism. It's hard to fathom that the parent to whom I owe my well being as a child also somehow seemed to turn off his awareness of what our mother was doing to us.

It sounds like your father did some horrible things. My mother has also been verbally and emotionally abusive but seeking validation from my father touches on his own issues. He has to have some level of denial to coexist with this. Yet, he also was the "good parent". He must have had to compartmentalize this situation. Seeking validation from him usually backfired as his tendency was to "rescue" BPD mother.

I understand your fantasy of bringing your mother into your life and have boundaries with your father. I would have liked that as well. But in actuality, he was enmeshed with my mother- and an extension of her. Your father basically owns your mother. Because of the triangle, she has dual loyalties but ultimately, your father prevails. She's completely financially and emotionally dependent on him.

Perhaps your T recognizes that your mother, as much as she can be loving, is co-dependent and that also isn't good for kids. I think when we think of abuse, we think of someone who is physically raging, violent, and while co-dependency isn't abusive in that sense it may also not be good for children either. Your father is abusive and your mother is an extension of him. Perhaps this is one reason your T is suggesting caution, at least for now. Also, there's intergenerational trauma in your family and maybe she wants you to work on yourself first, to change this for your son.

[seekingpeace2day]

Parents with PD's (NPD and BPD) see their children as extensions of themselves. Teens push for their own independence and identity as separate people. This is their developmental task to accomplish. As controlling and NPD-ish as your father is, it makes sense this was unacceptable to him.

Seeking validation from him usually backfired as his tendency was to "rescue" BPD mother.

Your father basically owns your mother. Because of the triangle, she has dual loyalties but ultimately, your father prevails. She's completely financially and emotionally dependent on him.

Notwendy, Thank you for sharing. There are so many similarities in the stories here in this thread. What makes you say my father is NPD-ish (rather than say BPD)? For years I refused the possibility that the has borderline tendencies, despite my T's suggestions, because NPD seemed much more accurate and perhaps palatable to me. However, he more I learned about BPD/NPD, the more this "fit." Sadly, I'd prefer BPD/NPD because the thought that he is "normal" and generous with my GC sister and only so hateful to me, really hurts. It was never fair.

Your description of my mother is spot on. She lives in a constant state of denial/disassociation, even possessing the self-awareness to describe that she "blocks out" bad memories or "takes what [good] she can get." This seems way beyond low self-esteem (and as I mentioned before, all of this made me very sick, too). Is there any healing from the drama triangle? It feels childish to ask, "Do they love me" or what will happen when they die, but of course part of me wants to know.

Today I will focus 2x on me, my wife, my son.

[Notwendy]

There can be overlap between the PD's. My mother is textbook BPD but she also has a NPD aspect to her. Her family has narcissistic tendencies.

Although there are high functioning BPD's - it's more like NPD to become rich, successful and controlling with money, lack of empathy, the "rules don't apply to me" and use people for narcissistic supply. I get that sense about your father but that doesn't negate BPD.

My BPD mother, who had not had a job herself ( married young, right out of college) has a sense of entitlement- only the best and expensive will do for her. We were not extremely wealthy, but Dad could provide for her wishes. She has to be above it all when it came to things like housework. That was for others to do for her. She even told me she felt sorry for me because I have been a hands on parent and clean up things- these are things she won't do. A sense of superiority and the rules don't apply to her. But her behavior is classic BPD and is predominant.

[seekingpeace2day]

Although there are high functioning BPD's - it's more like NPD to become rich, successful and controlling with money, lack of empathy, the "rules don't apply to me" and use people for narcissistic supply. I get that sense about your father but that doesn't negate BPD.

This is my father to a T - especially the rules don't apply to me, and using others for narcissistic supply - mixed with severe emotional dysregulation as far as his relationship with me (and In suspect others) is concerned. He is severely emotionally immature, but I think there is no question he has a PD - it's more than just immaturity.

[livednlearned]

seekingpeace2day, I'm late to the thread but wanted to say how much I identify with your family dynamics. I'm so sorry you were born into this dysfunction. I feel the pain in what you're sorting through, learning to be healthy in a family that may in fact feel threatened by those instincts.

I have had to get very clear about my inheritance and how it factors into my values and boundaries, and I suspect the same may be true for you.

I was estranged from my father for 7 years and lifted the estrangement only when I had learned how to ensure my safety, and only when I was clear with myself that nothing I do will ensure my inheritance.

Being back in my father's life may increase the chances of an inheritance, but it does not guarantee it -- it has been essential for me to know this. My father talks about his money the way some people talk about their beloved pet. How clever he is, how successful he is, how crafty he is, how good he is at managing his money, how he has more than so-and-so because he is smarter.

Money is love for him. His love is transactional.

Nothing is going to change the way he is, especially me, the family scapegoat.

From what you have shared, it sounds like you are emotionally yearning for change while intellectually telling yourself it won't happen. Does that seem accurate?

There are things I can subject myself to in my family only because I am one thousand percent certain that performing the perfect swan dive has nothing to do with the trophy.

[seekingpeace2day]

seekingpeace2day, I'm late to the thread but wanted to say how much I identify with your family dynamics. I'm so sorry you were born into this dysfunction. I feel the pain in what you're sorting through, learning to be healthy in a family that may in fact feel threatened by those instincts.

Thank you. Kindred spirits in this thread, it seems.

I have had to get very clear about my inheritance and how it factors into my values and boundaries, and I suspect the same may be true for you.

Yes, I can relate. I know we will be OK. It just hurts like hell to think about. I'm actually considering posting a letter he wrote here, but it's a lot (and might not be needed).

Being back in my father's life may increase the chances of an inheritance, but it does not guarantee it -- it has been essential for me to know this. My father talks about his money the way some people talk about their beloved pet. How clever he is, how successful he is, how crafty he is, how good he is at managing his money, how he has more than so-and-so because he is smarter.

Money is love for him. His love is transactional.

He sounds like a piece of work. I'm sorry. And I can relate.

Nothing is going to change the way he is, especially me, the family scapegoat.

Of curiosity, do you have GC sibling(s)? Does your father resent you for your independence and/or success?

From what you have shared, it sounds like you are emotionally yearning for change while intellectually telling yourself it won't happen. Does that seem accurate?

Yes! Not sure which emoticon best captures my ambivalence here - but yes.

There are things I can subject myself to in my family only because I am one thousand percent certain that performing the perfect swan dive has nothing to do with the trophy.

Tell me more. Are you saying you tolerate a certain amount of tension or abuse, because you are not impacted by their evaluation of you?

[livednlearned]

Of curiosity, do you have GC sibling(s)?

I have a GC sibling, yes. He has just been made executor of the will for both of them, and given health care power of attorney over my mother if my father dies first. Apparently my father will be capable of managing his own health because narcissists don't get dementia.

My husband is a physician and GC has phobias that make the thought of him making health decisions a curious choice.

I don't mean to make it sound like I have not felt hurt because I have. I am also willing to let go of even healthy rescue tendencies because ultimately, these are adults who are just as accountable for their decisions as I am.

Sometimes I wonder if being the same gender as the disordered parent increases the chances of BPD simply because the pressures to not develop a separate self are so severe. While I can't say for certain whether my father has a full blown PD, he most certainly set my sibling up for one. I think GC has BPD traits at a minimum, and probably full-blown BPD.

The fact you are so differentiated and not the GC, that says a lot about your strength, though I know the cost you paid for it may have been extraordinarily painful. It can feel like small consolation when the booby prize is scapegoat.

Does your father resent you for your independence and/or success?

Resentment is an understatement.  . It feels more like being erased.

My father skipped two grades and went to college at age 15. He was the first in his family to go to college and went on to earn an MBA from a prestigious institution. There can only be one highly educated person in the family, I have since discovered.

After high school I struggled my first year in college after getting mono. His advice was to drop out and get a secretarial job, or go to a community college. Instead, I went on to earn my master's then a phd from a prestigious R1 institution. Honestly, when I look back, perhaps I had to be estranged from him to finish my degree. I don't know that I could summon the strength to outperform his achievements had we been in contact.

Whereas I am not certain GC graduated from high school. It has never been made clear and asking would only invite abuse. I was in accelerated programs as a child and it was taboo to discuss education in our house because it set off such drama with GC, who struggled in school, both in terms of behavior and academically.

I suspect GC sensed it was taboo to achieve anything academically because it would put him in direct competition with our father. Just a guess. Today, GC works in the trades and is supporting his family living in a house well above his means that my father bought.

Recently, GC refinanced his house and there was a penalty of $7K that my father loaned him by taking it out of my son's educational trust. These actions are often explained in the context of how smart my father is with money, how principled he is, how he does everything with integrity. Yet somehow, these choices inflict maximum damage on as many people as possible, except for GC.

Are you saying you tolerate a certain amount of tension or abuse, because you are not impacted by their evaluation of you?

I think the best way to describe it is this: They see me as a one-dimensional person. I happen to know I have multiple dimensions. But I am willing to be two-dimensional (the compromise) if that means having a relationship with them.

One dimension is mostly a role. She is expected to attend birthday dinners, go to funerals, talk on the phone once in a while, attend events with friends at expensive clubs, and respond to SOS calls about health issues (my mom's).

With two dimensions, there is an acknowledgement that I seem to have a career, but we do not discuss it unless I am asking for advice. The second dimension of me guards my other dimensions. It's probably tolerated because I follow certain rules for myself that make it easier to maintain a relationship.

For example, I cannot exist in two dimension land very long so my visits are short and I avoid staying overnight, although this became trickier during Covid so I made an exception. I also don't offer much in the way of personal information, I don't ask questions about GC and his kids, nor do participate in anything that inconveniences me. I rarely if ever drink alcohol when I'm with them.

I choose to do things only if it works for me or I can ensure some way to get to safety if necessary. In two dimension land, I also make sure my son is safe and I never leave him or H alone with either of my parents. H and I have signals we use when we're in their company.

We also make a point to do something fun to help us decompress before and after a visit and if I'm sliding into choppy waters of my own volition, H knows to tug my shirt so I don't fall overboard.

I don't take strong stands on my father's choices and if I feel strongly about something (like whether my mother should be driving), I remain neutral. His view point is king.  

My historical role in the family system was the family garbage can. It has taken a lot of work to give them a much smaller target for trash.

When it comes to my (adult child) codependent mother, I treat her as an extension of my father and no longer trust her, although I do love her and while she is emotionally a child and has a good heart, she is also complicit and therefore cannot be trusted.

Her primary allegiance is to my father and that will never change, despite anything she says to the contrary. He is her captor and while she may complain, she is getting something out of the arrangement. As I get older, I can see she is expertly manipulative, but in ways that are ultimately hard to respect, especially when those same ways impact me. I don't believe she intentionally seeks to harm me, but she will triangulate me into the family dynamic when she wants me to solve a problem she (perceives she) cannot handle on her own.

For example, she is rightly worried about GC being her health care power of attorney. Historically, she would weep about this to me. I would wade into the firing squad to take any bullets so that her needs were considered. This would allow her to see what might happen if she did the same, and having seen that it ended badly, she can now comfort herself with the knowledge that made the right choice to not speak up.

Or, I would spend hours trying to help her get a lawyer or learn how things work or encourage her to make decisions for herself, only to have her do nothing except revel in the attention and bait me into thinking she was finally going to do something for herself that made a difference.

I now radically accept that my father and mother are two sides of the same illness. Narcissism on one side and pathologic codependence on the other. They are primarily living in one dimension, maybe two dimensional at best, and if there are other dimensions to them, I doubt they will ever be revealed to me.

I will admit to one thing that I'm still not sure is healthy, but I do it anyway. This is probably, on some level, where I hope for an inheritance.

In retrospect, I can probably do this without losing myself because the estrangement did introduce something into our dynamic that has had a silver lining, which is their fear that it might happen again. Now that I've done it once, I could do it again.

Being estranged from me was unpleasant because it reflected badly on them in their social network. I truly believe that is what drives them to stay in contact with me despite having done something considered so egregious and unforgivable. There is some freedom in being the scapegoat.

So what I do now is this: I blow smoke up my father's @ss.  

The way I tolerate hearing the same narcissistic stories over and over, in which he is the smartest guy, is to tell myself a story while he's talking. It's probably not entirely healthy but I stumbled on it as a way to be with my mom. When you said you sometimes feel repulsed by your mother, I felt I knew what you meant.

My mother is sweet, kind, social and playful. She's also terribly abused and treated like a child, both of which she tolerates as though it's her due.

She is also self-absorbed and sheltered to a degree I find remarkable. She is not curious, and she's not interesting to listen to, though she talks a lot. She tells terribly dull stories about people I don't know and the only thing that seems to matter is whether someone is sitting upright within earshot, so they can find her delightful, which is the highest compliment she could receive.

This shallowness was hard to bear while being the brunt of violence well into my 20s from GC. I could've used a real parent to help me survive.

It takes tremendous powers of concentration to remain engaged or interested in her stories, so I started describing her conversations as though I were interpreting for someone.

"This is a story about a person -- we don't know her name yet -- who is the friend of someone. Or wait, no, it's a cousin. We don't have the names yet, but we do know that this person apparently loves warm cashews and ate a whole bowl and didn't leave any for anyone else, so no more cashews when that person comes over."

This could go on for 20 minutes.

I do something similar now with my father, except I ask him questions about his exploits. It's sort of a form of validation, blowing smoke.

At 80, he repeats roughly the same 10-15 stories. I don't interject anything about myself or correct things he assumes about my understanding. Like you, I'm at the pinnacle of my field and can write my own job descriptions. I present at conferences and I'm published and honestly, blah blah blah. Having a boatload of narcissism in my family has taught me to value what really matters and achievements are not it. I wish I could feel fulfilled by some of the things I've accomplished but I think that is one of the things I can't do, having come from a narcissistic family.

I recently decided to not follow my company once it was acquired and took some time to weigh what I want to do next.

My father has been involved in acquisitions and he will discuss what my company did wrong, how he would've done it, how they should've done what he did, what I should do, why I made the wrong choice. To him, the only thing that could possibly explain why I am not currently working is that they probably didn't want me, and I cannot get a job because I didn't yet get his advice, which is priceless.

So I tell myself a story while he's talking. It's a bit harder with him to not devolve into satire.

It's probably a coping mechanism but if I'm biologically wired to crave a family and this is the best one I was able to get, I figure I have to come up with a way to make it work. The pressure to be in contact with family was so immense during estrangement, so I tell myself that as long as I'm not compromising my values, and no one (including me) is getting hurt, it's part of the package.

A handful of times things have become abusive and I was disappointed that I didn't catch things in time. But I have better recovery skills and try to learn from the episodes that don't go well. I think the saving grace is radical acceptance so that I don't get hurt believing that things will be different.

I spent decades yearning to be seen as a multi-dimensional person and it is oddly liberating to realize that is not in the cards with them.

[seekingpeace2day]

@livednlearned, Thank you for sharing your powerful story. I am so sorry for the hurt you have suffered. There is much to which I can relate (such as a phd from an R1 institution, ), and I look forward to responding. Right now, though, I am going to be with my wife and son. More to follow soon.

[seekingpeace2day]

@livednlearned, I seem to have goofed the forum software.

In the interim:

How did you learn radical acceptance?

Where/how did your learn "dimensions" of people? This is a wonderful and helpful paradigm!

[Riv3rW0lf]

How did you learn radical acceptance?

LivedNLearned might have a different answer but for me: I don't think you can "learn" radical acceptance.

It is something you feel, and would likely take place just before you are ready to grieve the father you never had.

I personally "killed my mother" once. I had finally accepted who she was, what the dysfunctions were, and that I couldn't change anything except myself... And I am still grieving, as it seems to come in waves.

It took me some time to reconnect to my feelings, like you I am mostly "in my head" trying to understand things rationally (I might be off, but this is how I perceive you through your writing)... But this is something we have to  to truly feel, and express through crying, raging, depression, exhaustion... It has to get worst before it gets better.

[Notwendy]

Lnl, we have some parallels. My description of how my parents see me is as a canvas that BPD mother painted her projections on. They don't see beyond that. Similar to the one dimension you describe. Also, when I visit, I go "invisible"- and neutral and they just project what they project. I also keep visits short.

Their focus was on GC, but I also achieved academically. They did want me to go to college. I went to an affordable state college - at the time, due to knowing my Dad had financial issues, the risk of BPD mother cutting me off financially, and also it allowed me maximal financial independence at the time to not be completely reliant on them for school expenses.

I always assumed that if there was a will, they'd leave everything to GC. They didn't tell me this, it was a hunch. I knew that GC was executor. When Dad passed away, he left everything to BPD mother. Later on, BPD mother asked me to go to the lawyer's office with her to sign some related papers. There was a will, and I think a POA form but I don't recall the details because where I was supposed to sign was not my name but one of my mother's relatives and I had a moment of shock and despair that she'd choose them over me.

The lawyer had to revise it before I could sign it.

To me, this had nothing to do with finances. It was something about being written off- on paper that was shocking because it showed me that she really didn't see me as the person I am. Her children are the ones who have her best interest at heart and she'd choose a distant relative over me?


While I know that BPD mother probably did this in a moment of dysregulation, and changed her mind later, the fact that she would actually do this was written on paper. Did she not know how hurtful this was? Or did she not care? No, it was because she couldn't see who I am.

Radical acceptance doesn't change how we behave. We have to behave according to our own values, no matter what. This didn't change that I remain polite to my mother but it confirmed to me that I had no way to control how she sees me. I think my fantasy was " if I could be good enough, then they could see me as good enough" and really did try to please her, to be "good enough" for my parents to see me.

Radical acceptance meant knowing they are going to think and see according to them but that I don't have to look to them for approval or validation of who I am. I need to act according to my own values.

[seekingpeace2day]

It took me some time to reconnect to my feelings, like you I am mostly "in my head" trying to understand things rationally (I might be off, but this is how I perceive you through your writing)... But this is something we have to  to truly feel, and express through crying, raging, depression, exhaustion... It has to get worst before it gets better.

Riv3rW0lf I am indeed more thinking than feeling as a type, but I am my best when I have both reasoned (the best I can) and felt my feelings. Feeling my feelings is, as you note, the relatively less developed skill. When I received the gloating cc email, I just lay in bed and told myself, "This is what abandonment feels like, this is what blame feels like," and so on.

I have moments of the kind of experience/feeling/awareness that you describe. That is why I have disengaged with my FOO - because I know much more then before "who is who and what is what." I have ample evidence (including a lifetime of experience and also dreams, to which I pay attention) that I am an outsider in that system. My father cannot see me at all, and my mother sees me clearly but still marches on with my father. My father's rage is not about me - it is about him - but still he rages and blames me. and in the past few years there has been an active smear campaign. He has elevated my brother-in-law (GC's husband) to a prince and goes on and on about him, never mentioning me. Of course the lies hurt, even though in reality I don't much like or respect the people in his shallow social circle or care what they think... it still hurts.

It is painful because they are getting older (almost 80) and the chance for any relationship is so small - but what else can I do? That is both rhetorical and serious question. I feel like there is nothing at all that I can do. Certainly I cannot initiate contact (for what - to apologize for his beating the sh#t out of me, insulting my wife, ignoring our son?). I did invite myself there for a 20h visit right before COVID, and he wanted to fight me the entire time. I made it out without incident, but it took a great deal of support from my ACA sponsor and preparation and all of my skill and focus. And, for me no alcohol even though he was drinking wine like a baby on a bottle.

We used to visit them a few times (say 1x every 2 years) - these visits would be vtense and not relaxing - and felt like we always had to invite ourselves, my mother being thrilled, and my father begrudging. Again, GC visits 4x/year and seems perfectly content. I remember how disappointed she was when she learned our son was scheduled to be born first. Her words to me were, "Did mom and dad tell you what we gave dad for his birthday?" referring to her pregnancy news. I hope my nephew survives - but he is simply a pawn between my GC sister and father. My father insists on a given nickname ("Captain") and before the boys were born would vent that he will never be called "grandpa" or"grandfather," which is how my son addressed him. He used to sign his letters "grandfather" and most recently signed "captain." He is obsessed with image.

I've certainly cried some and grieved some, and posting here opens some of the wounds so I probably sound upset. But as long as I don't hear from them, it's manageable. Then he cc's me (abuses) on a gloating email, and it stings.

A much younger cousin is planning a wedding, and it's soo difficult to imagine our attending. In some ways missing it would be a bummer, because my son does not know my extended family. But in other ways not attending could be a brilliant act of self-protection, and protecting my son. I will not allow my father to have both grandsons together - our son is very bright and sensitive, and he would sense the different treatment immediately. My priority is my son's safety and well-being, not my father's fantasy.

I know this: there is nothing, nothing, nothing on earth that I can do to make them think differently of me. I am 1000% clear about this - and still growing clearer, thanks to ACA, T, this posting, etc. So, I've done my best to stop trying to engage/appease them and instead focus on ME and what I can control/change. As I've posted here (and also to keep reminding myself), the best thing for me to do right now is observe from a safe distance. There is nothing else I can do, except pray (which I do that too).

Is this radical acceptance? I don't know, but I am soo much further along than ever before. And I am grateful for that. Thank you.

[seekingpeace2day]

This didn't change that I remain polite to my mother but it confirmed to me that I had no way to control how she sees me. I think my fantasy was " if I could be good enough, then they could see me as good enough" and really did try to please her, to be "good enough" for my parents to see me.

I can relate to much of what you post, Notwendy.

When my sister was married (very expensive), my father pulled me aside and said he was modifying his will to balance out the expense. I of course thanked him. Then he asked me to sign his will documents, and I asked about the adjustment - BIG mistake. He will not be accountable, ever, and raged at me. I was again never asked to sign the will and that was 15 years ago. He has since said things like, "We do not have a financial relationship; if we ever develop a different kind of relationship..." Last year he wrote an incredibly venemous letter, following my clumsy but respectful boundary setting, telling me that "This is not the last straw" and that I would receive a fixed amount of money but never any assets. I assume he was referring to a generation skipping trust. But how can you trust anything this man says? And what will he do for GC?

The sick or sad part is that I believe he loves me. I invited him to a T session when I was 21, and my polymath T told me: 1) you will be OK, 2) your sister got it much worse, 3) your father loves you, 4) this is all your father's stuff, 5) I think your father is an alcoholic, and 6) your father will always see you as discardable - this will never change and never forget it. Pretty darn prescient.

[Notwendy]

your father will always see you as discardable

This- and I suspected this is how my mother felt but I didn't think my father would. Yet, he did it too, probably following her, but that doesn't change that he did. But as long as he was alive, I continued to have hope.

With BPD mother, I don't have hope of her being able to perceive me as more than her projections.

It is a conflict of emotions due to her age. My elderly BPD mother lives a distance from me. Under other circumstances, I'd have brought her closer and helped with her care. However, I know that she'd completely exploit me, and that I would crumble emotionally.

I know this because this is how she has treated me when I visit. We also didn't visit during the Covid lockdown but once she was able to be vaccinated we felt safer and planned a nice visit. I assumed she'd be happy about it but if she was, I wouldn't know. I was in tears most of the time from her verbal and emotional abuse. When I got home, I had difficulty sleeping for several weeks after that.

[seekingpeace2day]

Sometimes I wonder if being the same gender as the disordered parent increases the chances of BPD simply because the pressures to not develop a separate self are so severe. While I can't say for certain whether my father has a full blown PD, he most certainly set my sibling up for one. I think GC has BPD traits at a minimum, and probably full-blown BPD.

It’s interesting - being the same sex ads my father, I definitely developed so much sickness. Thankfully, I am differentiated from him and have had strong support to become my own person, which I still am working on. But there is no question that some of my greatest growth is in learning how to relate like a healthy adult, not based on narcissist/borderline patterns that were the models that I had as a child.

The fact you are so differentiated and not the GC, that says a lot about your strength, though I know the cost you paid for it may have been extraordinarily painful. It can feel like small consolation when the booby prize is scapegoat.

Thank you.

Resentment is an understatement.  . It feels more like being erased.

Yes, it does feel like being erased. I had a dream recently where my father was writing a family scrapbook, and I was not anywhere in it, not even in the “bad” or “not proud” sections. Just totally absent.

I think the best way to describe it is this: They see me as a one-dimensional person. I happen to know I have multiple dimensions. But I am willing to be two-dimensional (the compromise) if that means having a relationship with them.

One dimension is mostly a role. She is expected to attend birthday dinners, go to funerals, talk on the phone once in a while, attend events with friends at expensive clubs, and respond to SOS calls about health issues (my mom's).

With two dimensions, there is an acknowledgement that I seem to have a career, but we do not discuss it unless I am asking for advice. The second dimension of me guards my other dimensions. It's probably tolerated because I follow certain rules for myself that make it easier to maintain a relationship.

I rarely if ever drink alcohol when I'm with them.

I choose to do things only if it works for me or I can ensure some way to get to safety if necessary. In two dimension land, I also make sure my son is safe and I never leave him or H alone with either of my parents. H and I have signals we use when we're in their company.

We also make a point to do something fun to help us decompress before and after a visit and if I'm sliding into choppy waters of my own volition, H knows to tug my shirt so I don't fall overboard.

I don't take strong stands on my father's choices and if I feel strongly about something (like whether my mother should be driving), I remain neutral. His view point is king.  

These sound like smart strategies to play the game and work within the family power structure. It was only during my last visit that I did not drink alcohol, and I can never do that again with them. And definitely, letting him talk without commenting is genius - but so unsatisfying and not real relationship.

When it comes to my (adult child) codependent mother, I treat her as an extension of my father and no longer trust her, although I do love her and while she is emotionally a child and has a good heart, she is also complicit and therefore cannot be trusted.

As you have read, I’m still undecided on this. My mother keeps so many secrets, I do not know if she tells my father everything or not. She is the last thread of my connection to my FOO. On one hand, we suffered a great deal together. And she seems to know how sick my father is. OTOH, she is a 50/50 partner in the madness, and his PR agent, defense attorney, and everything else. Hence my intermittent repulsion.

I now radically accept that my father and mother are two sides of the same illness. Narcissism on one side and pathologic codependence on the other. They are primarily living in one dimension, maybe two dimensional at best, and if there are other dimensions to them, I doubt they will ever be revealed to me.

I feel the same way about my parents. Once, I went to Italy to visit them - I paid for my own ticket, of course. The restaurant we went to for dinner had a private party, and my father lost it on my mother. (He blames everyone else for experiences that he does not like.) My mother did not see me, but I watched her scuffle her feet, staring at the pavement, telling herself, “This is all your fault, this is all your fault.” It was sad and tragic and disturbing. I never told her I saw this.

So what I do now is this: I blow smoke up my father's @ss.  

The way I tolerate hearing the same narcissistic stories over and over, in which he is the smartest guy, is to tell myself a story while he's talking. It's probably not entirely healthy but I stumbled on it as a way to be with my mom. When you said you sometimes feel repulsed by your mother, I felt I knew what you meant.

I can relate. Although it’s been years since we’ve visited or spoken, I’ve had visits where I literally just ask my father more and questions, and he just eats it up. I mean, he will answer on and on and never once ask about anyone else (or me). It is so absurd and exhausting that I’ve wondered how he cannot realize what is happening. There is no pleasure in these “conversations” for me, but they are incredibly effective. I suppose it’s like managing a conversation with a child.

I recently decided to not follow my company once it was acquired and took some time to weigh what I want to do next.

Congratulations! You have earned it. I hope you are able to savor that, even though your family cannot see.

[seekingpeace2day]

once she was able to be vaccinated we felt safer and planned a nice visit. I assumed she'd be happy about it but if she was, I wouldn't know. I was in tears most of the time from her verbal and emotional abuse. When I got home, I had difficulty sleeping for several weeks after that.

I am so sorry this happened. I can relate. These experiences also make me ask myself, Is this worth it? Why would I subject myself to that? It's just a horrible circumstance because 1) the abuse is real, and 2) there is nothing, nothing I can do. The only worse thing would be lack of clarity. So, I'm going to continue to observe from a safe place, for now.

I received the gloating Europe email two weeks ago, and my nervous system is still somewhat activated. The good news is that this recovery is much faster than it ever would have been before, and I used my tools: non-dominant handwriting, ACA/sponsor, T, even posting here.

[Notwendy]

Well to put it into perspective- can you even imagine a trip with your father to anywhere? He'd treat you the same way in Europe as anywhere else.

I understand it's hurtful to see he took GC and not you, but in reality, you wouldn't want this.

[Notwendy]

I understand the emotionality of the emails. My mother's FOO sends group emails to each other. It became embarrassing to BPD mother to not have news about children and grandchildren and so she began to backtrack on this and forwarded an email to me. I noticed that all other family members were included in the group email but I was not.

She then asked me "did you enjoy hearing about your family?" to which I replied "I am not a part of this family. They didn't include me"

I still have contact with them but I am polite, cordial, and distant. There is a member of that family getting married in a bit. I am not invited and quite happy to not be invited. BPD mother is invited and I suspect GC will go with her. Even if they did send me an invitation, I would not consider it to be sincere and would not attend. This is my own boundary. I don't trust the connection. I don't think they consider me to be "in their circle".

If there's one regret is that the cousins do like each other. I think my kids wish they knew their cousins better on that side but as adults, they are able to make the connection if they wish. I have fond memories of my own cousins, and really care about them but mostly they exclude me and seem to be enmeshed with my mother. I always wished I could be a part of their connections but it feels a bit like being the wanna be kid with the "cool crowd" at school and being allowed to hang out with them sometimes but not ever really getting to be one of them.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Is this radical acceptance? I don't know, but I am soo much further along than ever before. And I am grateful for that. Thank you.

It sure sounds like you have reached a state of radical acceptance a while ago... If you hadn't, there would be a lot more disillusions in your posts. You seem aware of the reality of who your father is, and while part of us always "hope", you seem connected to your healthy inner adult, whom can protect you and help you manage your expectations.

To me, this is radical acceptance. You are working on yourself, for yourself, not in the hope of finding peace with your father... But in the hope of finding your own inner peace.

I like your idea of telling yourself what emotions you were going through. I might have to give it a try next time I am in tornado mode.

[seekingpeace2day]

It sure sounds like you have reached a state of radical acceptance a while ago...

Thanks for the validation. I agree that I have a pretty good sense. The struggle feels to exist in letting go, not ruminating, hoping... and living our lives.

By coincidence, I just spoke with an 85yo neighbor to the house where I grew up, where I have not lived since I left for college. I trust her, but am not naive. She was always in my corner and is also long-time social friends with my parents. She honed right in and asked me about my parents and knew there was difficulty.

Apparently: 1) my paternal grandfather was known around town as a serious alcoholic (which I only generally knew), 2) my mother has ALWAYS defended my father, even when he says that red is blue, 3) when we were kids, she knew there was dysfunction - her impressions were that 1) my father wanted my mother all to himself, and didn't really want me or my sister around, and 2) the abuse/dysfunction was directed at both me and my sister. (This is true; there were times when I was the GC). She also told me about a time when my father sent a viscous and drunken self-righteous email to social friends, when they did something he did not like. The email mortified my mother and was so out of line that it was circulated around the social group, etc. Even so, my neighbor (clearly a rescuer) did not know that my father was an alcoholic, and I declined to answer when she asked. She said that she believed my parents wished it were different and that my mother always loved me and my sister. I tried not to regress into victimhood and gossip.

Most important and sadly, she spoke to my mother not long ago, who was telling her about spending time with my GC sister's family. My neighbor asked about me and my family. My mother's response was that I had put distance between my sister and me - that it had been my initiative "made my choice" - and that is why they spend time with GC sister's family, and not mine. This is the first instance I have ever heard of my mother blaming me, and that hurts. But of course it should not be surprising that my mother repeats the party line and defends herself and my father, even at the cost of not telling the truth.

Neighbor's perspective was that we should not associate with them (although she said of course, send your birthday cards and so on - we haven't done this in many years), should not grovel, should not let them ruin our lives, should stand tall, and if they come to us have open arms - was both accurate and also felt overly simplistic. I share this because it is a useful perspective from someone with a lot of lived experience, without insight into BPD or family dynamics.

These relationships are so painful, and dangerous. Nothing I ever did, helped - and I tried it all (anger, apologizing for their actions, excessive ass kissing, worldly achievements). No matter what I did, it only got worse. In terms of my FOO, all I can do is stay safe and observe.

[seekingpeace2day]

Well to put it into perspective- can you even imagine a trip with your father to anywhere? He'd treat you the same way in Europe as anywhere else.

I understand it's hurtful to see he took GC and not you, but in reality, you wouldn't want this.

Notwendy, Thanks. Can you see any situation where contact would be safe or desirable? I wonder if sending a Christmas card or photo of our son is too risky and would only invite more punishment. It feels truly damned if I do, damned if I don't.