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Navigating what is best for kids and what is best for me in light of trying to "not make things worse" is very difficult..  With many things it helps me to not step in W's issues, not solve her issues, punt to her T, etc.  But considering kids' best interests, making things worse may be unavoidable.

We had a short meeting with D5's teacher the other day.  I didn't see anything particularly wrong with the conversation, but the teacher was a bit defensive regarding D5's potty issues.  W blew up in anger about this, sent "snippy" emails to school administrators, teachers, etc, implied that their policies were illegal, unfair, and that she has been treated rudely.  Of course, the school was a bit defensive and told W that she has been difficult to work with.  This turned into an hours long rant at home that was nearly impossible for me to avoid.  The next day she woke up, still ranting about this.  I had a CT scan that day to determine if I potentially have tumor in my abdomen and I was feeling quite anxious and nervous about on top of the abdominal pain I have been having.  Of course, W's rant about the teacher took precedence over my medical procedure, which I found extremely selfish.  So I called her out on it.  Of course that made things worse, but at that point my focus was on me and I didn't care.

So now W wants to take them out of their current school and put them in another school.  This would be the 4 time the kids have switched school in 2 months.  I know it is hard on them.  I am not sure how to navigate this.

On one hand, switching schools is hard on the kids.

On the other hand, having W be angry at their current school every other week over something or another is hard on the kids  Whatever school they are at needs to be a stable place for the remainder of the school year.  Either school is fine for the kids academically.

Basically I told W that the decision was hers because she would be the one taking the kids to/from school and doing most of the interacting with the teachers and admin.  I also told her that if having the kids where they are means her getting stressed out and angry at the school every few weeks I don't want to deal with it. 

I have (and the kids T) have repeatedly told W that we need to make a final decision and stick with it.  So far there have been two changes in school since the kids T first told her that.  W has a T appointment of her own today, and I filly expect her T to question her about her black and white thinking and impulsiveness.

And BTW - CT scan showed no tumors, but did have a few things of concern.  I view it as a warning to me that I need to eat better, exercise more, and reduce stress so that these problems don't get worse.

Be sure to keep any documentation, such as this email chain, where the school states she is difficult to work with.  You may need this in the future in case this ever escalates, such as to the level of divorce.

Beware of telling W that she is in charge of school simply because she does the transportation.  That is the least important of school decisions and responsibilities.

If she has difficulty communicating with the schools, then that is your task to handle.  Sure, being in the middle is no fun, but stepping aside and hearing her rant and rage anyway isn't the solution.

The problem is that as long as you're in the marriage, you can't enforce an "I'm in charge" stance, even if your handling school contact is the better way.  Unless a court orders otherwise, legally you and your spouse have "equal but undefined" parenting rights.

That said, I guess the schools may decide to communicate in the future only with the "less difficult" parent.  Hint, hint... it would be good to be the parent doing the registering, you might even be able to list yourself as primary contact.

I am wondering if more of this behavior continues, that a school could refer the issue to a state agency and a court would step in and say "your kids are going here".   There are truancy laws, and the state would want to make sure the kids are being sent to school.

Schools will tolerate a lot of bad behavior, largely because they're stuck with it.

When I was preparing for my divorce trial, my kindergartner's school declined to take a position on either parent.  They stated they had "resolved" the issues of the prior months.  (However, his teacher who refused to allow her in her schoolroom offered to appear in court.)

After we settled and I had school authority in the final decree, incidents did continue of course.  I believe the breaking point was my ex screaming at the principal or vice-principal in front of the school in the hearing of half the school rooms.  Also, the daycare who was transporting our son also filed a complaint of harassment that she was following their bus.  School notified me I had one day to register our son in my district.  Why?  Because they could.  They weren't stuck with her anymore.

It might be worth a discreet side trip to an education lawyer just to gather information so you aren't wondering.

max, in addition to the others' good advice, this needs to stop.


My then recent ex wanted to switch schools and we were called into the principal's office when S12 was in kinder after my ex threatened another mother with a lawyer over supposed bullying, so she profiled herself. I was hesitant to triangulate, but I did with the principal, telling her that mommy wanted to switch schools. She thanked me for my candor.

Your situation seems that 10x, in addition to being still married, and that makes it so much harder. We can and will support you here, but what she's doing sound extremely damaging to your children. Where can you reach out in real life to help support your children?

From what I've seen, the schools deal with a lot of  :cursing: yet they focus on the big picture, the school. The "squeaky wheel gets the grease" and so on. Yet if you step up and advocate, they will partner with you to help. Yes, I'm suggesting triangulation, but to save your children.

Maxsterling, I don't usually post on this board and have no insights into the situation you find yourself in with your spouse. I just wanted to share a story.

My partner grew up with a uBPD mom. After his parents' separation and alienation from his dad, he switched schools seven times in nine years. One of the consequences was that he never developed a healthy network of stable social connections and friendships with peers during that time. For him, it reinforced the belief that he had to appease and stay loyal to uBPD mom, since she was the only stable adult in his life. This was no accident: she made herself the only stable adult in his life.
Luckily my partner is a resilient and social person and has been able to build good friendships after becoming an adult. But I think the inbetween years were very tough, and caused some long-time unhealthy beliefs about whether you can trust people.

Of course, your situation is very different - not least because your kids have you! Just wanted to re-iterate that your assessment that this needs to stop is very valid, and may have insidious consequences even beyond the short term.

Wishing you all the best trying to navigate this tricky situation  :hug:

I'm going to be a bit blunt here Max, but the idea of what school is best for the kids seems minor in comparison to what is best for the kids overall.

No school can help "fix" what they are dealing with at home.

If the school ends up making a report to social services about your wife's behavior, that might actually be the best thing for the kids.

As much as you wouldn't want that situation, one thing to consider is why- who are you protecting? Your wife or the kids?

This was the #1 rule in our family- pretend BPD mother is just fine. The kids had to do well, act well, because if the kids did well- then this meant she was a good mother. The reason your wife blew up at the idea that your child has a potty problem was not about the child, but that she saw it as a reflection of her.

But the reason kids that age have potty problems is emotional. I am glad you are OK and your test was OK- but if this stress is causing you stomach issues, well consider it could do that for your kids too. Emotional stresses show up at school for kids in the form of behavior problems, not paying attention, anxiety.

I don't have ADD but I think had I been a kid today, I'd have been put on ADD medication for the numerous "not doing homework", "not paying attention", comments from teachers over the school years. Once I told the principle why I didn't do my homework ( what was going on at home) but BPD mother came in all charming and they assumed I was just making up an excuse.

Any focus on "what school is best for the kids" is a minor situation compared to what they are dealing with every day at home and in my situation, every decision revolved around BPD mother. Kids need parents more than they need school. What is best for the kids also means taking care of you, because they need you.

Does the kids' T know they have switched schools twice since your wife was told that a final decision needs to be made and stuck with?

Any way you could reach out to the T for guidance?

Kids need a parent who can show up for them and step in when there is something going on that is not in their best interests. Your wife is not that person.

4 schools in two months should indicate to any professional involved that there's a pattern developing here, and that pattern is that your wife will find something wrong with any school that is picked and her decisions are not considering what is best for the kids.

I know you were hoping she would find a school that she would be satisfied with and not rant about every couple of weeks, but I honestly don't think that is a possibility. It sounds like you're going to have to come up with a plan for how you're going to handle it when these rants occur, because I think it's unlikely they will stop.

There is no perfect school and the kids can't get shuffled around every time your wife sees imperfections.

Also, Max... you don't want this to happen, because if it does, it's going to reflect on your parenting as much as your wife's. The court would want to know what you did to prevent this from happening.

With the world only now beginning to shake off the two years of lock downs and remote schooling, the odds of your school systems or state aggressively responding to truancy aren't great.  Very likely much depends on which state you reside in.

Typically, when acting-out disorders such as BPD are involved, it becomes an issue whether your spouse will oppose or sabotage your efforts to resolve her school issues.  Apparently some with BPD can manage to work with their reasonably normal spouses, sort of BPD-Lite.  We are remote and so are limited in our ability to estimate where she is on the BPD spectrum.  What do you think?  Can she let you take the reins on this and future problems?  And can you step up to the task before you?

That should be your goal now, to ascertain whether she can work with you on this, letting you make the major decisions.  If not then, however much you try to avoid it, the marriage will continue to worsen until something breaks.  If you're not prepared for that then both you and your child will suffer.

If the marriage fails, and not saying it must but it is a real possibility in the future, the two options are Legal Separation (essentially just a stopgap measure) or Divorce.  In those scenarios the family court will step in, and if you're prepared and positioned well then you can obtain the authority to parent better than the current status.

Thanks for the discussion, everyone.

Yes, the kids T is aware.  W has discussed with T at every step - sometimes at my suggestion that we discuss with T before making a big change. 

Here is my view of things:
1) Kids' potty issues are fed by emotional stress and inconsistency.  I am convinced that if W went away for two weeks I would be able to resolve the potty issues within that time.  It is W's inconsistency and frustration contributing to the issue.  If the kids have accidents, W then will go overboard and make them try every 30 minutes, and then they become resentful.
2) W's issues with schools really have nothing to do with the school or the people at the school.   There will be some issue no matter what school they are in.  I don't see where this school did anything wrong other than basically JADE to a mother with BPD.  W took it personally.  The sudden desire to switch schools began as a meeting with school admin and teachers to discuss potty issues was approaching.  It was Ws anxiety over that meeting that created the "emergency" in her head. 

I know this has affected the kids.  It has also very much affected me.  My main goal now is to provide as much stability for the kids and for myself.  We are kinda out of options regarding schools at this point. 

My main goal now is to provide as much stability for the kids and for myself.   while continuing to live and share a life with an unstable person.

It is what it is Max. I understand the situation. Regardless of how much my father could mitigate the effects on us kids, the truth is, he was completely committed to my mentally ill BPD mother, and this was an aspect of our family life.

It may be that you can't control what is going on with your kids and it may come to the school's attention. Your wife won't like this, but it may be the best thing for your kids to have someone intervene on their behalf.

I agree with Notwendy here...

Plus, let's be honest, schools talk to each other. Changing school 4 times in 2 months has likely gotten you flagged. I think you are past trying to keep peace with her. Your children need a healthy parent to step in and protect them against the rages and inconsistencies of your wife.

Have you considered discussing your wife condition with the school psychologist? See what they think? Maybe they can support your children in a more appropriate way if they know about it.

They won't take custody away, you are still there. But they can maybe deal with you when it comes to issues in school, so that wife doesn't get triggered on them.

Your child is 5yo... She needs to be protected ! She is the only real victim here.

Also, is the potty issue a regression? When did you start training? I'd consider it a possible health issue at that point and have her see a doctor. Urinary tract infections are easy to miss in children, especially when they don't feel safe being vulnerable at home.

I see this as inevitable.  At some point one of the kids will say something/do something in school that requires escalation and intervention.

The potty issue is encopresis.  We have been to doctors, and there is nothing physically wrong.  It is psychological.   It is not a regression, they have never consistently gone #2 in the toilet.  They prefer to hide in a corner of their room and go in their pants.   

As mentioned above, when W is out of the picture for a few days and I am mostly watching the kids, I do my best to be patient, positive, not force them to try all the time, and give them incentives for success.  I've gotten them to go 2 days without any accidents.  Then W gets in a grouchy mood, loses her cool when one has an accident, and then things are back at square 1. 

The odd are not in their camp with this as the main cause of encopresis is emotional and also the way to manage it needs parental consistency.

It's not a matter of them having accidents because they are misbehaving. They aren't- they actually don't have any control over it.

When kids feel their world is out of control, they often hold on to their poop, it's almost the only thing they can control. Or many little kids just don't want to stop playing to go to the bathroom so they hold it. Eventually they get plugged up. But poop continues to move towards the outside and eventually they leak around it. One clue is finding little pellets of hard poop where it leaks out when they jump or move around.

Getting upset with them for accidents they have no control over is like a vicious cycle as the more they get anxious, the more they "hold it" the more they leak around it and the more they get punished.

One of my kids' friends had this situation. He was about the same age- 5. There were serious stressors in his home including alcoholism. None of this was the child's fault, but he had behavioral issues, and encopresis. Sometimes we'd have him over to play and yes, there was an odor, and little pellets on the floor, but the kid was a sweet kid who was going through a lot.

There are treatment plans for this. They need consistency. Your wife getting upset at the kids isn't helping. You know that.
 

And pulling them out of a school because of this issue to put them in another school is also not helping.  They won't start the new school until Thursday, and the kids are already asking about their old school, when they will be going to school, talking about kids in their old class.  It's breaking my heart and making me feel like a failure for not stepping in and being firm.  But I need to tell myself being firm would not have solved the issue.  The reality is the new public school has more resources for us than the charter school, is a longer day, and doesn't cost us.  Having the kids in the public school will be a stress relief for me, so I went along with it.   

Are you resolved that this absolutely will be the last school change at mother's frantic demand?

Only you can prevent forest fires more chaos and damage.

Frankly, the lower costs of public schools will help you use your limited finances where they're really needed.

I think the public school option was discussed but then you defaulted to your wife.

I agree with FD in that it's a good financial option and the longer day for them helps.

But it doesn't solve their potty issues.

And, it's another default to your wife, that perhaps suits you too, but also, it's possible to convince yourself that whatever she wants is what you want too, as it's easier to manage and also, the choosing her wishes and ignoring the impact of her behavior on the kids gets easier to do on your part, as opposing her is difficult.

This is the pattern I grew up with and the pattern my parents were in for the entirety of their relationship. While we owe our well being to my father's efforts ( BPD mother is not capable of providing or caring for children) we also know that his main focus was on her. It's said that in a marriage, the marital bond should be the strongest, but in a marriage without disorder, both parents are aligned in their wishes to meet the needs of young children, and our basic needs were met- as is the case in your family too, but also a lot of disordered behaviors were ignored or somehow smoothed over as normal.

FD asked an important question. Can you be sure this is the last time you are giving in to changing schools over your wife's feelings? Also, how does this school handle potty issues?

I found this to be true, also.

Public schools see kids (high stress) like ours all day long, day in, day out. They have family counselors, guidance counselors, OT, PT, speech therapy, etc., and are held to higher legal standards, which can be better for families like ours, the ones that need extra help. Not that public schools are perfect, because they aren't ... but there are technically more resources there. Public charters are often so bare-bones they can barely meet minimum needs. Looking back, knowing what I know now, public schools are better for families who have high needs. In my limited experience, private schools tend to be well-resourced for extra-curriculars but fall short when it comes to psycho-social issues that usually stem from home conditions (and/or genetics).

Like everything else, it can come down to who is delivering the service, so a public school might not be a complete panacea. Some of the people I came into contact with were severely burnt out or so green they weren't sure what they were doing, and some were just bad at their jobs. But at least there was a legal infrastructure and processes that everyone was expected to follow.

A handful of times the public school resources (especially the people) were a saving grace that made a significant difference in my son's well-being. I think they also helped me see more clearly what we were collectively aiming for, since the well-being of my disordered ex was second to our son's, as it should be.

There may be a family counselor at the school you can reach out to (independent of your wife) to discuss ways your kids can pull a rip cord when their stress gets high.

I completely understand the challenging balancing act you are trying to manage. Appease your wife and take care of your kids, is that accurate?

Take small steps if you aren't ready to take big ones. Don't beat yourself up when you fail, come here for support when you take a small step in the right direction so we can help lift you up. It's important that you don't beat yourself up for failing your kids, as long as you are taking small steps to protect them -- it takes a lot of strength to get to the point we all want to see you get to. That can many things, including reaching out to family support at the new school to establish a relationship without your wife. They will know you're between a rock and a hard place, and will learn that you are an ally.

You don't have to share everything with your wife, something I had a hard time with in the beginning.

But unless she's actively seeking treatment, she's mentally ill and not in her right mind. Treating her like she's capable of handling complex information when she isn't will only undermine any progress you make to protect your kids, and that's so important it has to take precedence.

I had this wacky code about integrity that, looking back, was a form of self-sabotage. I don't know if you are wired that way, but if so, just know that under the extreme circumstances of a dysregulating and/or psychotic spouse, you have to make adjustments to accommodate the degree of dysfunction happening.

When you're in the relationship, it's harder to see how much ground the dysfunction gains, how much it's compromising your effectiveness in the family as the healthier parent.

I think I can speak for those of us from the viewpoint of having a BPD parent that we aren't posting to be critical or for you to feel bad. I understand how difficult this is for you. I have empathy for my father who also was married to a severely BPD person and he loved her and cared about her even if it was difficult for him. I credit him for the stability and support he provided for the family and have good memories of the times he was able to be a father to us. But we also know my mother's feelings and needs were paramount to him.

The answer to the question "why didn't Dad stand up for us" is that Dad could not stand up for himself. It wasn't easy, I know this from the times I have stood up to my mother and her reaction was difficult, and I also know that he lived with her, but we moved away once we became adults and so it had to be harder for him to say no than it is for us.

The reason I urge you to work on standing up for yourself- keeping yourself safe is that it's important for you and the kids. While there's a focus on "what's best for the kids" -  what's best for the kids is for you to take care of you.

That is basically it. 

Yesterday a letter came from the previous school regarding issues noticed with S5.  The issues are things we already knew about, but the teacher was required to notify us in writing.  I wound up keeping the letter for myself, because I know if W saw it she would be "triggered" and she would then go on an hour long rant about how horrible the last school was.  I feel bad about it, but 100% confident in my choice to not let her see the letter. 

The kids' first day at the new school was mixed.  The teacher seems nice, it is a small class, and a good school.  S5 had some behavior issues (expected).  I think he does not adjust to change well, and is angry about being in another school. 

Appeasing W and taking care of the kids - not really.  I feel it is more like I am on a road trip, have already been taken off the most direct and smoothest road, and now I am making decisions on the back roads on which highway to take that is smoothest and fastest.  I know making it back to the main road from where I am is lengthy and may require backtracking and driving down pothole-riddled pavement, so I choose instead to make choices that keep me going in the right general direction. 

In this case the "main road" requires some kind of r/s resolution with W.  Putting the kids in a public school is a turn towards a better direction.  For the kids, it may not be as scenic of a highway, but it is a smoother road with a faster speed limit.  They are going to get more of their needs met at the new school and it will be more stable.  My error was not pushing for a public school when W decided to decline her job offer.  The black and white thinking led her to the charter school, but we could have put them into another public school at that time.     

Typically a school cannot pick and choose the students.  They're stuck with the kids in their districts, so the deciding factor is often where the parents (or residential parent) live.  So they won't complain about something they can't change by much.

I have written about this many times over the years.  My divorce decree was issued near the end of my son's first year in school - kindergarten.  Previously mother had temp custody and temp majority time, so he attended the school in her area.  School even stated that they had nothing to report, prior incidents were resolved, when the divorce trial was looming.  Then I became the residential parent.  At first school let me file for him to stay until the end of the school year.  But she continued creating incidents, both for the school and my daycare for after school.  With only 5 weeks left before summer break, I was notified over the phone that the board had decided I had one day to register our son in my school district.  One day.  They denied my prior application for open enrollment... because now they could, in effect, kick out the problem parent.

This may be one reason why the teacher had to notify you of their issues... once he was gone.

Well, 3 weeks into the new school.

S5 is having some behavior issues.  Probably more serious than you would expect from a typical 5 year old.  I think the multiple school changes are a factor here - he has pretty much told me that directly.  He is slowly settling in, though.  The teacher and the admin show some concern that isn't shown for D5.   

W has mostly been happy with the school, but is starting to butt heads with the school nurse, and now with the kids' teacher.  W is going on about how rude and judgmental the nurse is.  I was not part of the conversation, but I am guessing it is likely W taking standard policies personally. 

Today she was livid with me for mentioning during parent teacher conferences that we had some electronic medical records for the kids and it would be easy to pass them along.  Their teacher asked for those records today, and somehow W took it personally and said the teacher was "confrontational" with her. 

The new school seems like a good place for the kids.   I think it is important to keep them there no matter what.  But W's growing sour attitude is typical BPD, but an indicator of drama ahead. 

What will you do if/when your wife paints this school black? Will you move the kids again or hold tight that they need to stay there?

Everyone has had excellent replies from their respective perspectives.

I will add my two cents here.  If you have a good gut instinct the school is good, keep them there.  Switching schools 4x in a very short period is not healthy for the kids, period.

I agree with livedandlearned, ForeverDad, ... , public schools have a lot more resources than other schools.  Definitely partner up with your schools guidance counselor, especially in Elementary/Primary and do what is in the best interest of the kids.  The guidance counselor should have additional mental health resources available through your local county/parish.  Explain your situation to them clearly and calmly.  If your W does the same, and it isn't calm, they will more often than not side with you [human nature].  Some school districts have dedicated schools for 'pyramid' -- a politically correct term for those on the spectrum and are better equipped to handle children from broken homes [in our case that is BPD].  Most of the kids in these schools are from broken homes [like 90%] but the balance [10%] has genuine mental health issues -- I know, I volunteer at one and interact directly with these kids.  Be active in your school, join the PTA, even when I was working 100+ hours per week, I still made time to volunteer [if there is a will, there is a way] -- now that I am [forced early] retired I volunteer a bit more, but not much more.  If the school knows you, they see you around a lot, they know you care, and they will give your child/children preference over those who don't volunteer -- again, this is human nature.  Learn to 'work the system' and to leverage it to your advantage.

An alternative to schooling is 'home schooling' we have a few friendly sets of parents who do that for their kids that need additional attention; however,  :caution: this is not advisable considering the dynamic at your house that you have shared.  If anything, you need to get them out more.  Examples:  Public libraries, have reading time for kids, and other activities -- I took, both of ours to such activities.  Also enrolled them in community/rec sports [starting at age 5] -- it was more like structured play time, but my S11 is excelling at it and is an extrovert, our D15 dropped out when she was 13 as she is introverted.  Check with your local school / county / parish for free or heavily subsidized programs available to your children.   :caution:  If you do this, make damn sure you only stay in public spaces in a group, do not visit the other mom's houses [it's 90% moms and grand moms taking their kids to these things, ~8% grand dads, and ~2% dads -- I only met two out of hundreds for this 2-6 yo crowd] -- do not give your pwBPD any ammo to accuse you of being unfaithful -- I did this, and still was accused.

I agree fully with NotWendy when she states,   I know that I am struggling with this very issue.  And when you do start to stand up, and your W detects it, she will do everything in her power to push you back down.  I am hoping to use our T's to triangulate that -- the last one for the past 3 years wouldn't, the new one I have just met once, virtually, did not give me good vibes; however, I will see where it goes.  I will give it 3 months, and if there is no progress on that T, I will suggest we look for another.  My individual T recognized he was in above his head, and has arranged for a new individual T that has extensive experience in BPD |iiii which is very hard to come by, so I have renewed hope.

With regards to potty training -- in my case [which differs from your case] it was to be able to recognize the subtle or no so subtle body language of your child -- recognize the 'potty dance' and you can see it in other children too.  Some put their hand over their crotch [boys and girls] and/or bottom, some get very fidgety or very nervous, others do both sets of behaviors.  Some will get fidgety, but still want to continue to play and not miss anything 'fun' and you need to encourage them to 'go potty' even if they don't want to [since they will be missing fun play].  Even at 3yo, I was able to tell both of my kids, when they were doing their 'potty dance' if that if they soiled themselves, the playdate would be over since we had to go home and clean up -- after following through on that specific threat 1 to 3 times [different for each child] - no more potty issues - use a fun activity as a 'carrot' to encourage good behavior.  However, please do be aware one of them [even at age 3 they were self-aware of fluid intake = fluid output] compensated by not drinking enough fluids, so I had to make sure they were properly hydrated, especially on hot days.

This is probably not an option for us at this point.  And even if it were, or if W suggests it, I have already told her that I am not switching schools again unless it is to put them in a school for special needs as mentioned by the kids' T*. 

* The school in this case is a private school that seems to deal with kids who have "family" issues.   W seems to think our kids are "special needs", but I think she wants them to have this label because it takes blame/responsibility off of her.  My feeling is that the issues that are presenting are related to unstable homelife rather than neuro/psych/medical issues from birth.  If school counselors try and push certain directions that I don't feel are correct for the kids, I need to formulate a course of action.  This may mean private conversations with kids' T and the school counselor without W present - but I don't know how that would work.  Kids' T seems to have a grasp on issues - so maybe it is just a matter of insisting the school talk to the kids' T before pursuing any action. 

That's good. Keep them there for stability and also to build relationships to build a support system.

When S12 was in kinder, there were a few bullying incidents. My ex confronted the mom in the dropn off line and threatened her with a lawyer. I was with our baby and saw this about to happen so I walked over and couldn't believe that my ex told her that.

We got called into the principal's office due to that: Principal, school nurse, teacher, and school secretary to record notes. It was about that time that I thought "triangulating the school staff isn't a bad idea." My ex also wanted to transfer the kids to a better district. I saw the principal at a school event and mentioned this and she replied, "that isn't going to happen." I didn't mention that it was due to her diagnosed Anxiety and didn't mention uBPDn of course.

It took another year for mommy to calm down. I made sure that I was a more visible presence at the school. School staff deals with a lot and likely aren't naive. Tread lightly given that you're still married, but don't be afraid to maybe "triangulate lite" to let them know that you're the more safe parent to talk to. Though there are a lot of rules in the school system (even private), I've experienced that by and large they advocate and care a lot about the kids.

Max, you recognize that your home situation is a contributor to the children's behavioral and emotional issues.

I hope you don't ever consider home schooling as an option.

I agree completely with NotWendy -- DON'T even consider home schooling as an option.

Absolutely not.  I've got two SIL that do/have done that.   With one I hear it has been positive, but I don't see or talk to them much and haven't seen the kids in 7 years.   The other one was a DISASTER.  My brother or SIL won't admit it was a disaster - but really could not have been worse.   

Hi Max.
It's been a long time since I've posted here. You're kids weren't born last I was on the site. I have a S17 and S11 with  uBPDxw. School, Covid, and BPD unravelled S17. He's in 3rd high school in 3 years and now lives with xw and only sees me every other weekend. A year ago, we were still 50/50 parenting.

Both our boys were enrolled at a private school, and like Livednlearned discovered, I kinda wish they had been in public school because I think S17's issues may have received more help, even though he had incredibly loving and kind teachers. During our divorce, xw had CPS visit after I had left the house. When I finally got access to the report (years after the event), turns out S11's 1st grade teacher notified CPS about xw as mandatory reporter ... because she wanted to drive her car with both boys in it into a brick wall when S17 was having a tantrum. She said his anger entered into her head and demanded she drive the car into a building. She didn't do it, thankfully, but she managed to blame him for it. No surprise there. CPS interviews with the school administrators indicated that the school had protocols in place for dealing with xw, including informing new teachers about her. I fault myself for not knowing just how much xw was creating friction and drama with sons' teachers and the school. I was definitely in FOG.

And S17 is now alienated from me (growing worse despite all my efforts to reach him) and is clinging to BPDmom to protect him and guide him. My only comment is that if you are, at any point, thinking of divorce, as hard as it may be, try to obtain full custody - don't settle for less. I thought that I had enough of a victory getting 50/50 and shared decision authority and that my love for my sons would prevail. It doesn't work that way. BPD behaviors can be so destructive and pervasive, and frankly, your BPDw sounds considerably worse than my xw (if I recall she hit you in the head with a phone once). I want to support you, but I am probably too triggered reading this post to be helpful. You seem like a good guy. If your kids truly improve so dramatically when your w is gone for just 2 days, that really has to tell you something. The best chance for your children is if their contact with their mom is limited and managed. But to achieve that, you have to be prepared. I was not.

This is where things get thorny.  I was told by an L a while back that in my state, parent time usually gets awarded 50/50 unless some kind of circumstance would change that.  The L said that is what I could expect initially.  Documentations of abuses could help persuade things, but what she told me was that more important are things that happen after the separation to show that she is not capable of taking care of the kids on her own even half the time.  In other words, short of an arrest record or a legal case against her, the court would likely "give her a chance" if it was felt the kids were not in immediate danger.  But the L assured me that in cases with someone as unstable as her, more than likely it would not be long that parent time would be 50/50.

So my options are to legally split and in the most likely scenario parent time will be 50/50.  That means 50% of the time I have little to no control over what goes on.   I worry about that 50% of the time the kids are with her.  Or I wait until I feel confident I can get awarded full parenting time/custody.  At least with the status-quo I have some input/knowledge of what goes on 100% of the time.  If W is having her typical crappy day, I can take the kids to the park.  Or I can simply be the stable person in the house for the kids when things are chaotic.

We understand.  It's tough.  The unknown is scary.  So is the "what if..."

When I separated, my courts defaulted to mother got temp custody and temp majority time.  That left me with no custody and 3 day alternate weekends and 3 hours in an evening in between.  (This was over 15 years ago and my state was still influenced by the Tender Years Doctrine that mothers were defaulted as best.  You're in a better state.)  I had two temp orders, one for the separation and a similar one for the 2 year divorce.

My point is "been there, done that".  Yet your kids would benefit with at least some of their lives in a reasonably normal environment.  And as the lawyer stated, your minimum ought to be 50% and probably more.

Have you hired a lawyer yet?  If not, have you interviewed a few to determine which one is (1) more proactive, (2) is experienced with difficult cases, (3) has a variety of solid strategies, (4) has a definite path to start any separation with you seeking as much parenting as possible from the very start?  I ask because many lawyers assume their main task will be to fill out forms, seek only the usual temp orders and hold your hand.  With cases like ours, we need far more than the typical filling out forms and holding hands.  That's why it is recommended to interview a few lawyers.

Years ago I read one smart suggestion... Ask in the interview if the lawyer had your troubling circumstances, who would the lawyer choose for legal representation?  Those are the names to add to your list.  (Lawyers work for you, you pay them, so don't be timid to ask.  They know they won't be hired by every person walking in the door.)

The lawyer I used for my separation told me she was too new - and not in my county - to handle my divorce.  She recommended someone local she respected.  But even he was caught off guard.  He estimated my divorce should be 7-9 months, it was nearly 2 years.

max,

If joint custody is the default, that may be better than what's going on, especially as ForeverDad says, get residential or decision making (home) status even with joint custody.

My ex is BPD-lite, but I'm "home base" by default. She moved 4 times within 3 years, 3 different school districts. She still tried to pressure me in the last, but I Triangulated with the school.

Nothing will be easy, and her beau-cum-husband told me, "when you return the kids, they seem so much calmer." I saw them jumping around and wondered how much worse they were with them. I didn't, but I also knew what he was talking about.

Later, she told me (bless her heart for volunteering information), "I tell the kids things and they always defend you!" Maybe stop criticizing me to them.

To this day, they still desire for me to handle their school stuff because they know I follow through while she "forgets because she's busy." D10's words last week. Busy doing what? Instagramming and Facebooking? Of course I don't say that to them. It frustrates me, but it's about the kids.

Don't underestimate the positive influence and safe space that you can provide even half of the time.

It's a good sign that your L is sort of laying out what is essentially a multi-part strategy, which is in all honesty what most of us in high-conflict divorces experience. What we ask for and what we get usually changes after separation. That goes with the territory in high-conflict divorces.

The judge is considered a "supreme" witness and that's sort of how it unfolds, where we bring our specific dysfunction to the judge and other third-party professionals to shine light on things. It's not ideal, but neither is dysfunction and pathology existing mostly in the shadows.

Another possibility is that you get 50/50 on paper but your wife cedes time because she doesn't handle stress well and parenting is stressful. Single parenting even more so, especially for a parent struggling to get through the day (altho parenting in the same home with a disordered spouse is arguably the most stressful, at least in my experience).

I think the decision to separate is deeply personal and one of the hardest that many of us make in our lifetimes, and I make no judgment on anyone's process nor do I have any illusion that our predicaments are solved easily with information. For many of us it comes down to whether or not we can tolerate what may feel like terror when we finally leave, or some other unmanageable emotion. For me, it was a combination of preparation, knowing my son's future was at risk, and abject fear. It simply became too frightening to stay.

We all have a line in the sand for what we can tolerate.

However, it's important to be honest with yourself. You might be overstating your ability to keep them safe. One of your kids has stress-related incontinence that is making it hard for him at school. This is happening with two parents in the home. For many of us, unless our spouses are working hard and receiving treatment for their trauma and symptoms, our kids aren't emotionally safe.

I left when my son was 9, about to turn 10, and like your son, he had what I now realize were serious issues that began manifesting in preschool. He's now 21 and can reflect on his childhood, and I find it baffling that the night his dad had a psychotic episode is not the memory he focuses on, but on the nightly abuse at our dinner table. Maybe that will change, and maybe it's a memory he simply doesn't want to re-live. In his thinking, he solved the problem of his dad's psychosis by pretending to be asleep, which, later in therapy, his therapist told him was clever. Whereas, I sat at the dinner table nightly prior to the divorce and not only did nothing to protect my son, I taught him to do nothing, too.

Had I put my food down during these episodes and said no more verbal abuse, it would've been WWIII, so I'm not saying the opposite of doing nothing is to toss a grenade. My point is that sometimes we think we're protecting our kids when we're actually laying down the groundwork for PTSD or other issues. We're training them to do what we did, what our parents modeled for us, and that might not be healthy for anyone, including our spouses with BPD.

For me, I went even further. To placate my ex, which enabled the dysfunction, I bought n/BPDx boxed wine (so there would be no bottles in the recycling) because he was too socially anxious to go into supermarkets, despite somehow having the capacity to buy alcohol in a liquor store. And then I spent the better part of the day and night thinking I was the safer parent for my son, trying to shield him from the instability I had helped create.

It's why I think you have to get very uncomfortably clear about what you value and then work from there. For me, it was my kid's well-being. I decided to make critical changes to ensure his safety and that made things untenable. But I had to stand up for something, and not just try to shelter him from his dad. I had to insist on therapy, and I had to say no to the verbal abuse. Maybe some pwBPD would be ok with those changes, but mine fell into the "not cooperative, dangerous" category that Bill Eddy discusses.

I guess the short version of what I'm trying to say is that status quo isn't an option. You have to choose to leave or to stay and become the emotional leader in the family. You have to be willing to infuse a lot of healthy leadership so your kids see someone not just shielding them but actively showing them what it looks like to stand up to a bully.


You're smart to worry.

Something bad will probably happen. ForeverDad probably remember the night my ex had a psychotic episode because I was here in distress. I think the subject line for my post was, "HELP - crisis exploding." I will never forget FD commenting rather coolly that it could be the event that led to full custody. He was right.

That's the same night my son has little to no distress about because his therapist helped validate his ability to protect himself.

I had been telling my son what to do if he needed help (hypothetically  :(), including calling me, going to neighbors, calling 911. Instead, he recognized that the smart thing was to play possum and ride it out. Which worked.

I hope that makes sense. Never in a million years did I think my son would interpret that worse-case scenario like that. He managed to do for himself what I hadn't been able to do, and it was good for him.

Obviously, it's a roll of the dice, and we can't know how our kids will manage dicey situations, but we also can't assume we are necessarily the healthiest protectors either, especially if we're training our kids to simply roll over.

This is a good observation.  This is also a "I hope I get gifted additional time but not sure if she will allow it" idea.

Nearly all people, especially mothers and including pwBPD, want to look good to others.  That's why our struggles are so intense in legal struggles, the disordered parent's perceptions are skewed to self.  But some parents, even mothers, cannot handle long stretches of parenting.  That sound like your spouse.

Also, be aware that she may expect child support and if she gives up time on paper that may reduce how much child support the calculations would assign her.

The IRS tax forms ask how much parenting time (overnights) the filer has, in months for the year.  IRS requires form 8332 (Release/Revocation of Release of Claim to Exemption for Child by Custodial Parent) for any variance to majority time parent getting child deductions and credits.  Probably also required as a part of the final decree.