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My thoughts are you never ask for forgiveness when making an apology.  You do your side of repenting, and the person on the other side will make up their own mind on whether they want to forgive you.  In this situation, asking forgiveness has the subtext of "if you forgive me, then you won't divorce me."  We aren't trying to box her into a corner here, but instead showing that there has been a genuine change of heart on your part.  Biblically, I can't think of a verse that says you need to ask a person to forgive you.  I would be interested if anyone knows of one.

Personally, I don't think you should write the apology letter quite yet.  Your goal was to wait a month if I remember, and if you have it all ready to go now, I think you are going to send it way too early.  When you do get to writing it, I would encourage you to share parts of it on this forum.  Not all parts will necessarily be too detailed, some will probably be more general, and we can get an idea of the tone of the letter based on the parts that you do share.

At this point, I don't think you need to ask her father to mediate.  I think his mediation is necessary when she refuses to answer you, and for now, the lines of communication appear open. 

Well said.


Asking for forgiveness could shift the interpretation of the note "he understands me and what needs to be changed" to "he wants something from me".

Which is the reason you are writing the apology?

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A drunk driver killed in a car wreck is technically killed by the metal of the car, but...


Before you can go forward, you need to solidify the foundation beneath you. If you go forward with one foot tepidly in the door of change, you will run back to your old ways every time you hit a bump in the road or have an emotional twinge.

Currently, you still "feel in your heart" what you have done for the last six months was the right thing. We've explained why it was not. Action on the ground has overwhelmingly shown you that it is not. But you cling to it. Although disastrous, the path feels unalterable to you.

We strongly suggested not sending the birthday gifts because doing would make things worse and set set the clock back. Can you walk through each of the birthday items and explain what evoked such a negative reaction from her and why? Can you explain why traveling to her country, unannounced, met with such rejection?

• Music box that had our initials
• Cookbook – nutrition for babies/children
• “Letter I Wrote Her” (book about biblical marriage)
• “Excellent wife” (book about biblical marriage, obedience)
• “High Conflict Couple” (BPD couples self-help book)
• Cash
• Flowers (intended, but not sent)
• email (intended, but not sent)
• Cookbook - adult cooking
• Bookmarks that were cat themed
• Band shirt from 1 of her favourite bands
• A letter I wrote her (saying ?)…

I think it will really help to do this postmortem.

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This concern of yours is apparent in your posts- your fear that if she's not in contact with you that somehow this will increase her chances of being tempted by someone. The only way someone can be pursued by this many men (it's not possibly to know this many people in our own circles)  is on the internet so I am assuming that her meeting someone on the internet is a worry for you.

One thing to consider is if your fear of her being tempted is based on something she is doing that raises your concern or on your fundamental beliefs about women in general. I am raising the question because what motivates our behavior affects how that behavior is received by the other person.

This has something to do with an email you want to send.  From your posts, I think you are sincere about wanting to apologize and to change, but there's also this urgency to do so before she is tempted to commit adultery - it might change the tone of the email This fear is based on your feelings. She may not have any intentions of doing that. There's no way to know. I don't have an answer for what to write to her or when- that is up to you, but it's something to think about.

having read this thread with great interest, these are the words that have been repeating in my head.

My ex was like this. She had to win, I had to lose. I told her that she seems to need to be right, she seems to need to win, when we have a disagreement. I told her I just want to be seen and heard, she doesn't have to AGREE with my perspective, just acknowledge that I'm not *wrong* for how I feel. Almost always about something she did to me, called me, or for exploding at me.

Being seen and heard can go a long way. Needing to be right, to 'win', almost always produces a  'loser'. I didn't want to 'win' with my ex, she did. She needed me to lose. This is not good for a relationship- a loser, someone who's been beaten and not seen and heard, doesn't feel good.

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The postmortem was to explore what she is feeling. You wrote 199 words on her, surrounded by 1,100 words on how you feel.

One thing about timing.  You realistically have one more shot to save your marriage.  You want to take that shot in the best possible situation.  Waiting a month and succeeding is much better than taking your shot early and failing.  Ultimately, it is counter productive for you to be worrying about what she might do, absent of you.  Part of the issue, is she feels controlled by you.  You trying to control the situation to get a better outcome is going to reinforce that belief.

As for comparing your wife and all women to Jezebel, this is seriously bad thinking.  Two can play that game.  Women could compare men to Adolf Hitler.  Both sexes are fallen and need a savior.  Looking at women as the evil sex has most certainly hurt your marriage relationship.

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Evil women do exist, as do evil men.  You seem to view all or most women as evil, which is not Biblical, except that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.  The Bible's warning about evil women was so that you would avoid them.  You chose to marry this one.  Viewing your spouse as evil, is seriously going to limit your ability to reconcile to her.

The content of my posts has been to try to see how this might feel to your wife, if she has a mental illness but even for someone who doesn't have one, I think it would be difficult to maintain a relationship with someone who believes they are fundamentally prone to evil, spitefulness, and rebelliousness. If we believe that trust is essential to a relationship, then I don't see where trust is possible and I see this in your feeling you must be on guard for such behavior.

I understand you have felt as if people are blaming you and not her. Whatever happened involved both of you, but she's not here posting for advice, you are- so comments are directed at you. While this board is titled the "bettering" board, it often happens that the "bettering" involves what we can do, as we can't control another person.

I think some other posters have mentioned the idea of a "change of heart" but I think this idea is in conflict with your personal religious beliefs and these are paramount for you. Even though your wife also has a part in this, for you, I think this is your own personal struggle- between your religious beliefs that you maintain are the right ones ( even if other people have different ones- these are your fundamental core beliefs) and the possibility of perceiving women, (including your wife) from a different perspective if this perspective is impeding a harmonious marital relationship - not only because of her own nature -whatever you perceive it to be- but because of how this results in your behavior of being on guard and defensive with her. I don't think this is something anyone can influence- this is your own perspective to question or maintain.

It makes sense to be cautious of evil people but if one assumes all women are more prone to evil, then one would inevitably be on guard with all of them.

I also don't wish to engage in a Bible debate. I think the best person to answer such questions would be an older married man in a long term marriage who has real life experience to share as to how to implement their beliefs in a marriage and also how they resolved conflicts, because no two people are exactly alike and they need to be able to resolve conflicts in a manner that isn't hurtful to each other. A married man who has achieved this would be the best example for this situation.

I do think the overall challenge for all human beings is to "love one another" and how this happens can be a challenge when someone is not behaving the way we want them to behave. Love isn't about approving and agreeing either, I know that, but it does mean to keep in mind that if one believes all people are capable of evil (both are, even if you believe women have more of it) isn't it also said that all humans are made in the image of God too? If we claim to love God then to love people requires being able to see the aspect of them that reflects the image of God as well. It's easy to do this with people who we see as good. The challenge is to see this in people we don't consider to be good or acting in ways we think they should.

The "change of heart" referred to is what happens when two people in conflict see this aspect in the other, and it's truly a wonder that this happens but I think this can only happen when two people are in a one on one relationship with each other and I don't mean only a romantic one. It could be between friends, teachers- student etc. From what  I have seen, when there's been a change in perspective - and then behavior in people - it's because someone believed in their fundamental goodness. It doesn't mean they ignore unwanted behaviors, but that they believe the person is capable of better.

I don't think anyone can make this happen for anyone else. I think it's a personal choice and often a struggle.

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Because - whether it's real or not, or you intended it or not, she perceived you as hurting her in some way. You didn't physically harm her but she could perceive emotional harm.

How do I know this? Because my own mother with BPD has also not spoken to me at times over some perceived hurt to her, real or not.

I have written in my other posts that people with a mental illness perceive things differently. We don't know if your wife has BPD. We do know that she has depression.

People with BPD can perceive themselves as victims, even if it isn't intended.

My BPD mother has done and said hurtful things. While I don't condone the kind of behavior- it makes a difference how I perceive it through attempting to understand her perspective because it changes how I interact with her.

If I can understand that she perceives some things I do when interacting with her as hurtful, I can be mindful of that and choose how I respond to her. I can see her as doing/saying things deliberately, being purposely hurtful, or because she is mentally ill, and this changes how I feel about them. If I think she's doing them to me, that feels hurtful. If I think she's responding out of her own hurt because she misperceives me - that changes how I feel and this changes how I respond.

It doesn't mean I walk on eggshells or enable her to treat me poorly but I have to be mindful of my behavior when communicating with her.

Before I understood this, if she's being hurtful, I can get her to back down but when I did, I realized this actually scared her but the reason I reacted like I did was because I was afraid of her and acting out of my feelings. I don't want to interact with her this way and so I need to change my response to her- beginning with examining my own feelings first so I don't react the same way.

I can't say for certain why your wife did what she did but my best guess is that she felt hurt and scared. She also said this to you. She said she could only handle 30 minutes of conversation. While to you this felt controlling and you responded from your own feelings- this could have scared her into shutting down. You mentioned she was abused by her own parents. The "shut down" response is something people do in this situation and might continue to do if they feel scared. It's not something they are doing to you to hurt you. A scared person might run and hide. You didn't intend to scare her, but she may perceive it that way.

It's good you are posting and venting and allowing people to give you feedback.

This started 15 posts ago with the suggestion to do a postmortem to lay a foundation upon which to build an apology. Your thoughts are now at 199 words about her feelings (5%) and 3,800 about yours (95%).

This is where you are right now. Which is OK. It's important to be self-aware.

.	There are things we will need to discuss, but first I would like to take a little time to process this and all that has happened. I need to think about who I am and who I want to be. ~ understandBPD (27/9/23)

It might seem that you need to either (1) take time to processes "all that has happened" and seriously explore "who I am and who I want to be"
-- or--
to (2) fully accept and embrace who you are now and accept what that means to your life and marriage going forward.

Let's talk a minute about the latter... we have not discussed it previously.


I didn't realize that a large part of her involvement with Christianity and the IFBM (Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Movement) coincided with your courtship and marriage. Her commitment may be different than someone who grew up in the Christian faith or otherwise not as strong as you feel it is (or should be).

Certainly this raises the possibility that leaving one is leaving both (the marriage and the IFBM)? Steven Anderson (founder of the IFBM) says that in the IFBM, a women has three choices. To remain in the marriage, to leave the marriage and not remarry, or to leave the marriage and the church and remarry. There are other, much higher profile christian churches in Iran, like the Armenian Apostolic Church, that may have practices she is more comfortable with now that she has some experience. She may consider a church started by the Apostle Paul, for example, as also being authentic and true to the Bible.

There are 2.3 billion Christians of which 0.0001% are IFBM. She could be at a point in her walk where she is considering or has ventured beyond the 0.0001%. Up to this point (212 posts), such a thing seems untenable for you.

If she doesn't want to come back to the marriage model you have shown her (and/or the church), would you be able to accept Christian beliefs that are not in the 0.0001%?  Or do you walk away to honor your commitment to God?

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Everyone in this forum has had some experience with relating to someone with BPD, and regardless of one's religious perspective- most people on this forum have given every effort they know to do to make it better. If someone has a broken relationship it may or may not be due to their own decision. But everyone here has something to share.


What I did mean about a role model for what you want is to not dismiss the advice on this board due to whether someone has managed to sustain such relationships or not ( some information might not suit you regardless) but to seek out some mentors in your community as well in a face to face relationship- older couples who have achieved what you wish to do.

Some couples have role models- parents who they grew up with. I mention this because my own role model is my BPD mother and while I may have decided how I wanted to act, what we imagine and what is real life can be different. You mentioned that your father is deceased and so this wasn't something you observed. If your wife has a mother who is abusive, then she didn't observe that either.

Because, theory and practice are different and marriage can be challenging. One can't possibly know all that goes on between any two people. In even my own circle I know couples who have reconciled difficult issues and for some, it was not possible even with their best effort and some through no fault of their own. There are are some couples who I know who do stand out to me as exceptional people and if you know some like this too, they can be role models for you.  

If you are able to reconcile your marriage, then this is your task to take on. If it turns out that it isn't possible, you too have done the best you knew to do with the abilities you have as well.

That puts it in context.

There are many churches that have marriage bible studies where older couples in the church mentor the younger couples. There are also pastoral counselors like the one you believe your wife is using. Ashkan Amlashi  is married, Iranian, living in the US, a pastor and a psychologist. If you can find someone like this for yourself, I think it would be most helpful.

I do find this significant.  Her decisions for faith and church are rather recent decisions.  These are not her bedrock core beliefs.  While she came to believe what you believed for a period of time, it was easy for her to change her mind when things weren't going well in your marriage.  You arguing that she made agreements with you based on certain beliefs will not be a convincing argument to her.  She changed her mind.

you are in a failed relationship, understandBPD.

your wife is pursuing divorce. i know thats hard to hear, i know right now you dont even want to acknowledge it, but it is the reality of the situation.


someone who has been in a failed relationship can share with you mistakes that they made, and ways to improve. they can tell you, for example, the things they did that helped kill their relationship, and what they learned from that. it takes a lot of resilience to grow and to learn from that failure, to face the reality that our actions were responsible for destroying something that at one time meant more to us than anything. ironically, its what it often takes to save it, when that is possible.

you can, instead, disrespect it, and i suspect you would do the same to anyone from a "successful marriage" that didnt agree with you, or otherwise mirror your worldview.  

it is hard to watch someone you are trying to help, self destruct, especially when all they have to do, is get out of their own way, and just stop doing what theyve been doing - just stop making things worse. in your assessment of how your communications to her might have been received, you can see the ways youve done/are doing that, but then you turn around and completely dismiss them. maybe you can see them, but they are too hard to accept. i dont know. it is a lot to swallow, and a lot that is being asked of you, in a very difficult time. i doubt i could have set my hurt and perspective aside at the time in order to save my relationship.

what i do know is that you can look at each communication, every single one in isolation, and see her move further away from the marriage and closer to divorce as a direct response. i dont think its a coincidence that after she received the gifts you were warned against sending repeatedly, she told you she was pursuing a divorce. would it have made a difference whom that advice came from? would you even take it back if you could?

if that sounds like blame, it doesnt really take a person who has lived the ideal relationship to see cause and effect.

you have alienated the woman you love, and you are alienating your support system. sometimes, when its you against the world, the world might have a point.

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Personally, I wasn't telling you to not send a gift; I had an issue with the gifts that you did send.  Sending marriage self help books to a person planning to get a divorce was tone death.  It showed you weren't listening to her and were trying to tell her what she needed to do to save a marriage that she wasn't interested in saving.  If you had just send a card and flowers on her birthday, I don't think people would have objected.  Ironically, the worst part of your gift was received, and she never received the most positive aspect of it.

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It does feel uncomfortable being the one comments are directed to, but I think the intent is to try to help.

There are two ways people respond to someone sharing their relationship issues. One is- when a person vents, to agree and commiserate, and be understanding. This does have the effect of the person feeling supported and better- but it doesn't lead to any change because it doesn't challenge them to do so.

The other is a way of helping but it's uncomfortable. Since we can only change ourselves, comments directed about our own actions are the ones that are most effective. Feeling angry, as if one is being blamed- yes, it feels this way. But we sometimes can't see what we are doing as clearly as when someone turns the mirror on us.

I don't know if your wife has BPD or not, but if she did, then an unsteady sense of self is a part of it. The beginning of a relationship involved idealization on their part and some mirroring. This isn't them being dishonest. If they aren't sure of who they are, they may think they need to become more like you. Your wife may have been drawn to your way of religious practice, believing that she needs to be more like you. You said the Anderson idea was hers, but also her adopting some of your views was new to her too. She may have been interested in his ideas at the time but these were new ideas to her as was your form of practicing religion. She was not raised in this.

There is theory and there is practice. The concern about Anderson is as Skip said- his following is a small number of people. One would consider him to be at the extremes of practice, controversial, and a larger number of people would have difficulty with his ideas. Of course, everyone is free to choose their own belief system and you are too. I think though we might also imagine that even if your wife thought this might suit her, she had no experience with it and once she did, she realized it was not something she thought it was. The focus on Anderson was to point out that even if she thought it was something she wanted, and you went along with it thinking that, it may not have been the model for marriage that worked.

We asked about her religious background but what about yours? Even if two people are of the same religion, there's variation in practice and no two people have the same family experience. We bring our ideas of how things should be in a marriage and then, we face the reality that there are two people with different ideas. Where does your mother fit into your ideas? Does she agree with them and did she raise you with them?  

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I think a part of this is that you have formed a sense of what you want in a marriage but without an example of that in your own family. I think this is a common situation. We learn a lot from what we observe growing up and any marriage is a combination of two different people each with their own ideas and the examples we have.

I have friends who are in a form of the relationship model you attain for although I don't know the exact denomination. You speak of control in terms of that relationship. One area that I think caused difficulty is in the carrying out of this concept. Truly, no human wants to be controlled by another to the extent of being submissive. It's humiliating, and attempting this kind of control will result in either pushback- power struggle- or emotional withdrawal for the losing person. One can "win the fight" for power but it's an emotional war with casualties- both people, the relationship, those are the losers.

The couples in this model who appear the happiest are those where the husband may be the breadwinner and the wife in the more traditional role but the wife- with her own individual talents and aspirations are not just "permitted" but supported by the husband because, he knows that these are essential parts of her. She may have family as a priority but also, a job, a talent, and her own hobbies. A husband "giving in" to them ( and then possibly feeling resentful) is not the same as being supportive and it feels different. While you felt your wife was going back on her agreement to be a wife and mother by wanting to tune pianos, it might be that she wanted to do both and neither was a conflict with the other. Jobs are not just a source of income, they can be a passion too. Of the women I know in these more traditional marriages- they are wives, they are mothers, and also have talents, hobbies, professions. Husbands may be breadwinners and have their own interests too.

Every marriage includes compromise but if a spouse diminishes something essential to themselves- something that is a part of who they are- too much, it's not good for them, or their spouse, or the marriage. I agree there are boundaries to this and these are decided between both people. I think the idea of control is more nuanced- it's more about collaboration and voluntary agreements rather than a power conflict with a winner and loser.

I don't know what can be done here but the two of you are at gridlock. You holding on to your stance of who she needs to be and she doesn't fit that mold. Could you backing off some of your stance be effective? I don't know, but if you don't feel you can sincerely be OK with what you back off on, it would cause you to feel resentful and it won't work. I think it also helps to forgive yourself. You did what you felt was the right thing at the time- and it didn't work the way you hoped it would. But we can only do what we know to do at the time and then we learn from it. As to reaching out, perhaps a sincere apology- with no expectations of how she's supposed to respond might at least help with your part in this. On her part, we can't know or predict.

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I would recommend not doing the part in bold.  At this point she isn't interested in saving the marriage, so telling her your plan on how to save it is probably not the message to send to her at this point.  The only exception is if it is an area of your life that does not necessarily involve her.  If you felt God was working on you in the area of pride, and you were trying to be more humble in your daily life, that would be fine, but if it was something like servant leadership, which would obviously be practiced only on her, then she might feel that was pressuring her to reconcile.

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When the apology idea was first raised, we talked about a model something like this:


The second example is 62 words. And, I think, it hits at the biggest concern you have about your wife "not being a meek and obedient wife and not living up to my [her] vows". It you received this tomorrow, I suspect you would feel heard. Would agree with that?

These 14 words are at its core: "not being a meek and obedient wife and not living up to my vows". It is much different than the first apology above. The first apology is hollow and self-referential. Would you agree with that?

What are the 14 words that should be at the core of your apology? What would make her feel heard?


These terms seem like more of the symptoms than the cause. Why are you prideful, stubborn, disrespectful, argumentative, etc? Having read all your posts here for content and observing how how you communicate with others, and assuming that there were elements of this in your relationship, I suspect she would want to hear something like

.	I'm sorry for letting my self-righteous behavior choke the love and compassion out of our marriage.

Short. Powerful. It will be read. She will feel heard. The first problem is that you probably can't say something like this right now. The second problem is that something of lessor statement of self-awareness is not going to break through the walls that have been built up over the last seven months and 20-30 unanswered emails.

I do hope you will at least "take this on board" and think about it rather than mounting a defense. I know its painful to read. I know anyone would fearful that this is too vulnerable. Maybe the real message is that you need more time to do what you told her you would do:

.	"process what happened" and "understand the difference between the man I am and the man I want to be".

As I pointed out earlier, you have written thousands of words since you started the apology discussion but there isn't anything that suggests that you are mentally in the mind space to face the magnitude of change that is likely needed if there is to be any hope of saving your marriage.

You recently said this:


Would you write this to her now? Of course not. Can you see the dichotomy here? Can you feel it? This is this very different than I'm sorry for letting my self-righteous behavior choke the love and compassion out of our marriage. Is one statement the man who your are, and the other statement the man who you need (want) to be?

If you are not crystal clear on "the difference between the man I am and the man I want to be" , take a little more time and talk it out here.

This is hard stuff. Good mental health is hard.

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it is a good first draft.

it says everything you want to say (probably not literally, but it gets it all down). it is heartfelt.


i dont think the suggestion was to reduce your entire letter to 14 words. it was to focus on the core message - the part shes really going to hear (14 words or so).

your letter, in its current form, wont really achieve that in a focused way. its a list of wrongs you want to right, which is good. i would sit on it, and i would reread it, several times, with the goal of really internalizing what i put on paper.

the other immediate problem i see with the current form, is that while you dont ask her to take you back, and you went out of your way to avoid mentioning any marital obligations, if it were a letter that someone sent to me, and i imagine she would have a similar read, is that i would take it as "here are all the things i promise to do/not do if you come back".

lots of times, members come here, after being the ones to end the relationship. their ex will offer heartfelt apologies, and promises of change. there are all kinds of reactions to them. they may be tempted. they may feel validated. they may feel invalidated (sort of like "why now? why couldnt you see this before?). they feel conflicted on how, or whether to respond. but they always have a great deal of difficulty trusting it. the advice for them is usually two fold: 1. its probably not an issue of sincerity, but follow through, and 2. loss is a powerful motivator. change really has to come from a willingness within.

my point is not to compare you to someones bpd ex, but to, as always, consider how your letter will be heard, and to do that, you have to put yourself in her shoes.

my memory is really fuzzy about this, but my ex and i had a fight once. she was in a mood, and it was a bigger picture thing, but she had put down my christmas gifts to her, and essentially said that the ones she gave me were better, and more expensive. wow. even now, i cant resist the impulse to point out that not only was that not true, but her mother paid for them. i digress. it was not just hurtful, but pretty unattractive of her. some time later (months), we were talking, and i brought it up. she looked at me and said that it was a horrible thing to say, that no ones gifts are better than anyones, and that shed never do it again (less than 20 words). i didnt have to see any evidence. in that moment, i believed her. i knew she would never do it again, and she never did. she was also the most thoughtful gift giver ive ever met, and we had some pretty joyful christmases after that.

the core of your message has to come from that same place. where there is no leap of faith required, but the change is felt with conviction.

so, i offer these suggestions more as food for thought than specific changes to your letter. its a very good start. im glad you shared it, it will help immeasurably to have feedback when even a sentence or two could throw off what youre trying to say and how youre trying to say it. i do encourage you not to rush this. as much as you can, in a relatively small period of time, its important to actually live and experience the change for yourself. think of it this way: the 13, 23, and 33 year old versions of you would all have written very different things. there may not be much time, but the more time you do connecting with the 43 year old version of you, the clearer what to say will become.

I think once removed is right, your draft is a good start. It's really good to get all this down.

Question? Do you think she would believe you if you said you learned to play the piano in the eight days (since your last email)? Would she believe if you said you lost 30 pounds (in 20 days)? Of course not.

In the same way, it's not believable that you acted one way with fierce intensity for seven months and then suddenly changed - woke up one morning as a different human being. No words will convince her (or anyone).

At 90-150 days, it's credible to say you have started to change. Especially if you can point to things you have done like work in a domestic abuse shelter, complete a marriage bible study, enroll in a seminary class, close your gaming account, become a big brother, etc. Let her see that you have the right attitude and are doing the work.

To be credible, you must then handle the 90-150 days in an emotionally mature manner.

Life is a chess game, not checkers. You gave her an emotionally mature (probably shocking) response to her divorce email – that showed change, and it bought you some time. A month later, you can send a powerful/brief apology – that will also show change (probably more shocking) and buy you more time. This alone buys you 90 days of building credibility and 90 days to do something meaningful toward change.

Baby steps.

At 90 days, you could send a short note about how much you are learning in domestic abuse work – and maybe lament about one thing you are sorry about in the marriage. "You know, I realized something when I was volunteering today that reminded me of what happened between us with gaming. Dear, I was bind". Now you are at 120 days.

Your mom can tell her, "Johnny has really changed."

Hopefully, somewhere in all of this, she reaches out to you.

Baby steps.

And please don't think my examples here are anything more than just examples. You have to map out your own 150 days. And you have to decide if you are really interested in making a change.

It's certainly OK with all of us if you choose a different path. If you feel you have to send a 1,000 word "I've seen the light, Dear Jesus, and I have changed" letter tomorrow you should send it, and people here can help you tweak it. Maybe you are right. Maybe she is on the brink of jumping into bed with someone from Facebook, and this is your one-and-only chance to stop that.

But at least consider that your wife stayed a virgin until she was 26, is married, lives with her parents right now, is in therapy, and resides in a country where they lash adulteresses. This is not an environment likely (not impossible, but not likely) to germinate a meaningful new relationship.

Is your urgency real and you are making an emotionally wise decision? Are you struggling with depression/anxiety and the twisted thinking it brings?

*mod*

We split this discussion of the "The Bible and Marriage (Christian discussion) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=356675.0)" from "IV. Writing an apology letter (Christian discussion) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=356667.0)"

They are related topics but each each is important enough to command a dedicated thread.

Let me give an example, that I don't think is you, but I want to explain why an apology could be rejected.  Husband beats his wife.  Next day he feels bad, gives her a heart-felt apology.  She takes him back.  Next week he beats his wife again.  Maybe she gives him another chance.  But as the cycle repeats she eventually separates.  He then gives her another heart-felt apology, and she rejects it.  She doesn't believe that he is capable of change.

In your case, I don't see you apologizing to your wife much in the past - maybe I am wrong.  Certainly, not to this degree.  So, I think you have a much better chance for your letter being believed.  On the other hand, there is a huge amount of emotional inertia when it comes to making a decision to get a divorce.  It takes a lot to make that decision. She is going to be reluctant to open the door to a new direction.

As for what you wrote in your letter, the observation I have is the use of the word "repent."  It is a theologically charged word that I don't normally see in an apology between 2 people - normally between a person and God.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't use it, as the language should be your own.

So, you have stopped playing video games?

It's really hard to post something that personal and have a bunch of people you don't know offer thoughts on it. Kudos for doing that.

I'll preface by saying that I have been teaching various forms of writing and composition for over 20 years, so some of this is just me looking at it the way I would look at any writing I was evaluating. But I also think what I'm going to say is maybe another way to get at some of what Skip and Once Removed are saying.

So my reaction when I first read your apology was that it was a little too cerebral, or a little rote. Or both. There are parts of it that didn't strike me that way (the parts about being heartbroken that you've hurt her and made her cry and that you think she's amazing and you're proud to call her your wife). But a good bit of it did strike me that way. I don't think it is being inauthentic or that you're not sincere with what you're saying. But it might be that living a bit more with what you're saying, and living what you are saying, would deepen how you're feeling and change the way that gets expressed.

I'm not sure if this helps explain how it currently strikes me, and I don't mean this as an insult at all. Writing is hard. Writing an apology is really hard. Writing a good apology is really, really hard. But I put a prompt into ChatGPT asking it to write an apology loosely based on your situation. The actual prompt I gave was two sentences with some basic information. This is what it gave me:


This isn't exactly like your apology, but it's not worlds apart from it. At the end of the day, I think you're going to need your apology to sound less like a large language model could've generated it. I think that's more likely to happen if you do some of the things Skip, once removed, and others have suggested.

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The reason not to ask for forgiveness was to keep the focus on her. It was suggested not to be self-referential or ask for something in return for the apology. This is done so that the apology is not diminished by appearing as a means to get something in return.

In your draft, you have already gone beyond an apology and said that the problems are solved which implies getting back together ("I understand how they impacted and hurt you and what I've done to ensure they never happen again"). In this context, you could certainly go one more step and ask for forgiveness, too (i.e., let go of your negative feelings). You could go two more, and ask that she move back.

The question you have to ask is whether you are demonstrating the things you claim in your draft (empathy, emotional intelligence, validating, etc) or are you being stubborn and tone-deaf to send all this in response to her saying she is pursuing a divorce? An unencumbered apology has less risk of evoking a negative reaction.

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Often we write things at times like this that the other person feels they can't respond to without opening a can of worms. Gottman 4.

In your last email, there was a simple test question in it to see if she would respond. All it would require is a one word response "OK". Normally people would respond to that, especially in a situation like this. She didn't. That should give you some sense of how guarded she is right now.

If you are trying to get her to engage, you have to be careful not to overreach.

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Hey Understanding!  I write for a living so I want to give a different perspective here that might help.  Companies hire me to take their complex features of products and break it down into simple, straightforward content that their ideal customers could quickly relate to.  Usually, that's one short sentence at the top of a website or document.

Here's the thing though, the client usually says, "You have to talk about this, this, and this.  It all has to be there up front because it's the most important things!"  And I'll tell them, "Sure, that's the most important part to you, but your average customer could care less about that. They're focused on how it will make their lives easier."

So if you want to make a real impact here, stop thinking about what you want to say.  Instead, focus on what she needs to hear from you to reverse this.

If you go into extensive detail about all the things you've done wrong, that's going to make her think about...all the things you've done wrong.  We don't want to focus on that since it will almost surely backfire.  Instead, let's talk about what really matters to her, to someone struggling with mental illness and a failed relationship.

Off the top of my head, I can think of a few things that are more important:

- I love you and miss you dearly
- I was foolish and stubborn
- I took far too much for granted
- I am truly sorry

If we want to talk about how you've changed, then reflecting on the past is not the way.  Instead, focus on today and tomorrow:

- I have almost completely stopped playing video games. Instead, I spend that time doing <this> and <this>.
- I am planning to do <thing> this winter and maybe <thing> starting in the Spring.

These types of statements don't say, "Look at me and how I've changed!" This is actually showing her you've changed without it seeming like a brag about yourself. This way is more humble and also more effective.

Finally, we end every letter with a value statement, a big takeaway that will stay on the reader's mind.  My first thought here would be something very simple and straightforward:

- I love you and I will always be here for you.
- I'm so sorry for everything that's happened and I want you to know that I forgive you as the Lord forgives all of us.

Something along those lines.  I hope that helps!

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You have said the above repeatedly over the last 5 weeks and I assume for seven months in your emails to her. Don't you think she is not opening the door for this very reason -  because she knows you will "fight to the death" until she come back? Do anything, say anything to make it happen - pressure, guilt, shame, sweet talk, promise - that there is little possibility for an open discussion that would respect her desires, especially if those desires are to stay away and think for a while (without conditions) or exploring divorce.


If she sees this as the primary reason behind the apology, and you said she was smart, it will make things worse - more so because you are claiming you have changed and are a new man.

An apology is a wonderful gift to give someone who has been wronged. You care for her, do this for her. Don't undermine it with other messages.

“If you love someone, set them free; if they come back to you, it was meant to be.”

You face an important decision here. I pray for you to have strength and wisdom to make the right choice.

Weigh everything that has been said by the members here, your therapist, and the books you have read.

It might be a helpful exercise to consider what you would want to say, if you knew that it wouldn't succeed, and that she would still go through divorce no matter what. If trying to change her heart or reach her were no part of your apology, what might that look like?

You don't have to answer this now, but consider it as you continue to approach this.

I completely get it because you say it so often, it can often feel generic.  Your goal here is to (1) show sympathy and understanding while also (2) showing you've changed.  However, you can't say "I've changed" because everyone says that in these situations.  So what you write has to be truly authentic and from the heart.

I'm not a Biblical scholar by any means, but this sort of reminds me of Moses speaking with God and saying, "What if they don't believe me?"  So God teaches him a few nifty tricks, like turning his staff into a serpent and back again.  That's not what did it though, it was Moses's walk with God that made all the difference.  Other parts of the Bible touch on this by saying a Christian walking by faith will have an undeniable aura about them, a change that sets them apart.  People will know the truth because they will see the truth, feel it even.  I've had those experiences since my break up and committing to God. 

It may seem tougher doing that in a letter, but now is the time to dig deeper and be truly vulnerable.  Don't say it- show it through your walk.  Let your wife see the changes in you through your actions and your focus.

With my ex, she was incapable of seeing it in me even though everyone else around her could.  And I'd cry out to God asking why?  Why is this happening?  What do I have to do to make this work? The answer came to me in time through understanding one simple verse- "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not in your own understanding."

You see, I wanted my wife back, but God wanted me to humble myself and witness to my daughters, my brother, and other family members.  Over our 13 months apart, the "God things" in my life just kept happening and people would ask me about the Bible or faith out of nowhere.  I touched so many people's lives through God's grace, and none of that happens if I had my will...it had to be God's will in command.

Now, I'm not saying this to discourage you.  It's quite the opposite in fact.  My point is that you can't do this without God, and that's who will determine whether your wife stays away or returns.  Right now you're in a storm and trying to think of anything you can personally do to right the wrongs of the past, but God calls us to live in the present and serve his will.  If God wants your wife to return, she'll return.  The reason He's waiting though has to do with both your heart and your wife's.

Maybe there's something left for you to do, or maybe your wife is not where she needs be in order to return to you with an open heart.  My best advice, my only advice, is to let God sort that out while you yield to His will.  And if you have to write a letter, then make sure it comes from the heart and aligns with all of God's principles.

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Just a quick note to clarify my comment about ChatGPT. My recommendation was to sound *less* like ChatGPT, not more like that. You don't want to sound like a large language model produced the words.

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youve stated your reasoning. it makes sense, coming from your perspective, why you would want to try this approach.

we have each stated our reasoning, as to why it is doubling down on a failed approach, will not achieve your goals, and will work against you.

you dont appear interested in substantially changing approaches with your message. fair enough.

from where im sitting, if that letter is the approach you want to take, edits here and there will not make a difference. timing will not make a difference. you might as well send as is.

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Respectfully, we have all given substantial input. You have objected to all of it.

Furthermore, you have now included, in your updated draft, things that were strongly and unanimously suggested against.

There is no way that I see to turn this approach into one that will achieve your goals.

You seem confident that this is what you want to do. You know your wife best. You believe this approach will work, and that if it doesn't, you won't regret sending it.

OK.

You're right.

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to contribute.

God will decide the outcome.

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The thread host deleted all messages, removed the links to prior threads,. re-titled the thread, and modified his profile at 9:27 this morning.

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