II. Giving her space (Christian discussion)

[understandBPD]

I don't know if you had that role model or formulated it based on your ideals and beliefs.

My father passed away when i was 9 which i would say had an impact on me for sure.

You mentioned that your wife eventually got "tired of losing" during your discussions. Maybe she felt she had no choice but to give up after trying what she knew to do didn't work.

My wife is very intelligent and she isn't used of being proven wrong and i would imagine from her past most males just agree with anything she says because shes attractive. When she met me i challenged her and proved i could match her or even go above her intellectually it was another reason she was attracted to me. In the beginning this was good because she slowly learned she can be wrong and that i am confident enough to stand my ground when i know she is wrong.

It only started to become a problem after we got married because she would say or do something and i would explain to her why its a bad idea or why she is wrong about it and she would get irritated. I am not talking about minor things that i correct her on e.g every day life things i am talking about more important life decisions.

When you got tough, what did that mean?  

It meant pointing out when she was behaving poorly e.g yelling / screaming / swearing / slamming a door in my face / locking herself in our bedroom / refusing to eat / sleeping & being in bed for days or treating me poorly / cold i would just say the way your acting is childish and im not going to play a part in it when you want to talk about this so we can figure out a solution let me know. I would then go do my own things whether it was playing a video game or going to the gym etc and she would get more angry at me.

To be very clear i have never been physical or put a finger on my wife i have never been violent or broken things etc and in all the years ive been with her i've raised my voice at her 1 time when she was being an absolute brat and challenging me that she could do whatever she wanted. Other than that our arguements were all very calm and civil and just emotional with her being upset mostly.

This is why she told her parents whenever she was upset or crying i would just leave her or i demanded she cook for me even when she was clearly crying and upset. The truth was everytime she was upset or crying i would go to her and try to comfort her and talk to her she would give me attitude or tell me to get out. When she was upset like this i didn't even ask her to do anything for me including cook i just ordered food. I told her father i have the messages of a lot of the times these events occured to backup what im saying is true.

In what ways was she challenging your authority, that you felt that you could not let it go?

The main 1 would be male friends and social media everything else she overall good with like the way she dressed her manners / politeness i don't have much to complain about it was mostly her naiveness towards males regardless if she says there friends i tried to get her to understand that she's attractive and a lot of these men would jump at the chance to be with her she was completely oblivious to this and in denial.

The other issues were more towards the end when i would ask her to listen to me on big decisions like the job or having children or the ways we could stop fighting i was of the belief that if a woman is submissive and has a meek and quiet spirit naturally that softens a mans heart towards her and he will treat her like a queen. But when your fighting for control and aren't submissive then you are challenging his authority and so he will respond in turn defending it.

I don't know how to word it properly but like for example pastor anderson gave an example about how his wife approaches him when she needs help. If she challenges his authority and tells him to do something as if shes in power e.g go change the childs diaper in a demanding way he would say hold on who do you think your speaking to like that im not going to do that im going to go to war with you build a bunker and get my machinegun out and fight you till the death. But if she approached him in a submissive feminine way and said would you please help me with changing the childs diaper im really tired or xx reason. He would help her instantly and ask if shes okay and does she need anything else done.

This is how i felt in our marriage except my wife came in demanding a lot of things or having big expectations like im obligated to do these things which im not. 1 example would be she kept pushing to get this job i explained why i didn't want her to do it some of the reasons were for tax purposes , travelling time and cost and that she's already struggling and this will make things worse in the long run and that she had agreed she wouldn't work when we were together.

After she got the job she was exhausted from the travelling complained about public transport and kept asking me to take her to work and pick her up from work. I did this quite a few times because i know shes new here but after it became an expectation and if i said no she would treat me poorly or be angry or not be as loving towards me for days i got over it and told her im not your taxi driver i explained why i didn't want you to get this job now what i said is happening is happening and i am not responsible for you making your own mistakes when i've given you advice and you've chosen to go against it.

These types of scenarios or her way she would try to get things is what i mean by the rebellious behaviour and it makes me want to fight till the death to maintain my authority over her if she was the way she says she wants to be and she would learn to be more feminine as she was when we first met and all the way up to when we got married then i would of done anything for her i would of washed her feet i would of laid across a pool of mud so she could walk ontop and get across i would give my life for her regardless.

So when i tried to explain this to her at first she agreed and she would be submissive and i would love her so much and do anything for her and she would be happy. But then it was like a demon would posess her and her behaviour would change or she was fighting some kind of internal battle and she would become disobedient and challenge me and as i said anytime you challenge me im fighting you till the death and your going to lose and so that would upset her more.

Whether she has male online friends is her decision to make.

That's where we disagree its not her decision its my decision and she did it knowing it bothered me but would be so insecure and accuse me of cheating or looking at a woman when in reality i didn't associate with females at all.

The facebook thing i was lenient with and let it go this is what i meant by being flexible but if this was a male friend that she knew in person which it wasnt i wouldn't of been flexible at all that's a non negotiable for me if you want male friends and your going to meet them while your married then you can divorce me and don't let the door hit you on the way out and i wouldn't care.

Towards the end she was getting worse like she was trying to make some new friends (she didn't like any of my friends basically had me cut them off or spoke poorly about them told me that she believed 1 of my friends wives liked me as well so i don't have many friends anymore and have been isolated since all of this happened)

When she was trying to make new friends she wanted to go out with 2 girls but they also had boyfriends or male friends and she asked if she could go i wanted to say no but again i tried to be lenient and flexible and compromise i understood she needs to try to make some friends cause she's alone here without family or friends so i said it was okay.

I've made many compromises for her and been very fair all my decisions ive ever made in regards to her have been in her best interest and to try to ensure she's happy even if its sometimes at the expense of myself this is why i feel so strongly that i haven't been unfair or some authoritarian dictator. (Ontop of this most of the times i've made a decision she didn't like she would come back later on and thank me for the decision i made and said i was right this happened 95% of the time it would be very rare that a decision i made wasn't the right 1 for her and i believe this to be true even up till now)

One thing about future plans, you left out that when you ask to speak with her, you ask for a conversation with her where you promise not to fight, i.e. a low conflict conversation.

Ok i will add that as well

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

I said anytime you challenge me I'm fighting you till the death and your going to lose and so that would upset her more.

I am sorry for the loss of your father. Surely that has been difficult.

Although you haven't harmed her physically, and you don't mean this literally, it still has an emotionally violent tone to it. Concerning the example from Pastor Anderson, to fight to the death because a tired wife didn't ask for help with the baby reveals the priority here and that is submission.

You did make some concessions to your wife, but there's a difference between conceding and allowing something, and supporting something because it is meaningful to your wife. It's clear that these concessions were not what you wanted to do and it diminished her in your eyes and I think she could sense that. Neither of you were happy about this.

To you, you believe you were lenient. We don't know how she experienced this power struggle but the result is that she couldn't stay with it.

[Skip]



...it makes me want to fight till the death to maintain my authority over her...

Are you referring to the near death of the marriage? Is that how far the fighting for control went?

pastor anderson gave an example about how his wife approaches him when she needs help. If she challenges his authority and tells him to do something as if shes in power e.g go change the childs diaper in a demanding way he would say hold on who do you think your speaking to like that im not going to do that im going to go to war with you build a bunker and get my machinegun out and fight you till the death.

Let me not question Pastor Anderson's beliefs. Or yours. They have been made clear.

Let me ask if you believe Anderson is infallible? Do you believe he is a Biblical scholar? Do you believe he is the ultimate authority on the Bible?

I only ask this because you are putting your life and the life of your marriage on the line based, in part, on this one interpretation of Ephesians 5. Wouldn'y a second opinion (not from us   ) be prudent? It costs you nothing.

One thing that has been helpful for me is to study the Bible under multiple mentors. I've belonged to different churches, different denominations. I attended Temple for a period of time. I always read the Bible with a study guide and I have used different study guides each year. I studied theology at the university (it wasn't my major). Every year I am humbled by how little I know, and amazed at what I learned that year. I am certainly not the person to tell anyone what the Bible says. I do have some observations that I would ponder if I was in your situation.

The  term "authority" or a similar term is not in Ephesians 5 as far as I know. And, yes, Ephesians 5:24 says "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.", but the preceding verse (5:24) says"Submit yourselves one to another in the fear of God." Is it possible that "submit" does not mean "be under the absolute authority of"?

I'm not asking you to agree. Just questioning if there is even a remote possibility that Paul was not suggesting authority? There is a copy of Ephesians 5 below for anyone reading.

The same about Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for. Is it possible "loving like Christ"  is meant to mean being a servant leader, as Jesus was? Is it possible "loving like Christ" doesn't have a hierarchical or  authoritarian connotation.

Again, I'm not asking you to agree. Remote possibility? Maybe?

And what was the message in John 8:7? Jesus defended an adulteress against those who would stone her to death, saying “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” She wasn't stoned. What was the message to the adulterer? What was the message to the men who were going to stone her? What it the message to you?

Anderson is an interesting guy. At 32 he split off from the Baptist Convention and formed the New Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Movement (NIFB) and recruited some 30 small churches to be in it. By 2019, amid infighting about doctrine, money, ethics, some churches opted out, there was some accusatory youtube videos, the NIFB website came down, and Anderson himself said there there is no NIFB, "its just a colloquial term that we’re using just to kind of talk about pastors that we like, pastors that we’re friends with".

My point being that even these 30 like-minded pastors, couldn't agree on doctrine to such a degree that it toppled Anderson's NIFB 5 years. I say this not to dishonor Anderson, but to say that there is value in having a broad base of mentors.

Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

King James Version (KJV)

[understandBPD]

Are you referring to the near death of the marriage? Is that how far the fighting for control went?

No , More of a figure of speech

Let me ask if you believe Anderson is infallible?

No

Do you believe he is a Biblical scholar?

I believe he is on the right path and has the correct interpretations in most cases.

Do you believe he is the ultimate authority on the Bible?

No

I only ask this because you are putting your life and the life of your marriage on the line based, in part, on this one interpretation of Ephesians 5. Wouldn'y a second opinion (not from us  Being cool (click to insert in post) ) be prudent? It costs you nothing.

I didn't base my interpretations or beliefs from pastor anderson i based them from my own and what i want in a marriage it was the foundation of what drawed me towards my wife it was what she also wanted there was no misunderstandings or suprises she would even give me scenarios and ask how i would handle them she never took issue with my beliefs , interpretations or what i expected from my wife.

I wasn't even aware of who pastor anderson was until my wife asked me to watch sermons from him and usually i wouldn't watch sermons because i disagree with a lot of them and consider them weak watered down versions of christianity that cater for people in 2023 for popularity and will never say anything to go against the norms.

So trying to imply im being influenced/mislead by anderson is probably the wrong way to look at this because first i had these beliefs myself and he just reinforced they are correct but secondly it was my wife who agreed with his teachings and asked me to watch them to learn. When she looked for a church in the area i live she tried to find a church as close to pastor andersons ministry as possible and she actually did.

The pastor from that church was also in agreement with me and thinks she has no reason biblically for divorce and even went as far as to say i shouldn't of even let her return to her parents.

Is it possible that "submit" does not mean "be under the absolute authority of"?

The wife is to submit to the husband in everything unless he is asking her to commit an obvious sin. There isn't any need for word games the bible is very clear the greek word for Subject which is what the KJV uses in Ephesians 5:24 is ( Strong's G5293 - hypotassō) the meaning is clear

The church is subject to Christ as the wife is subject to her husband i don't think anyone is going to argue that the church isn't under absolute authority of Christ (God) ? So then you shouldn't try to argue against Gods word for a wife being subject to her Husband in everything other than avoiding Sin.

Is it possible "loving like Christ"  is meant to mean being a servant leader, as Jesus was? Is it possible "loving like Christ" doesn't have a hierarchical or  authoritarian connotation.

Yes and i agree with this interpretation but i believe this is only the case when the wife is also in subjection to Christ and you could be a servant leader but if your wife is mislead or has evil intentions or is doing things counter to Gods word then being a servant leader would destroy you.

People seem to have a view that Jesus was a weak person who never fought against anything and was basically a doormat this isn't the case he knew when to be firm and to not be like this and there's examples of this trait within the bible.

If my wife honored her vowels and what she portrayed and promised when we first met and also married then i would be able to be a servant leader this wasn't possible because there was a constant power struggle that i wouldn't let her win. She opted to blow up the marriage because she couldn't gain control she is not a victim like people seem to keep implying. She caused problems and was not perfect and i was also not perfect there is no "victim" here.

And what was the message in John 8:7

That the pharisee were trying to tempt / trick Jesus into giving a command against what God and Moses taught which he didn't he didn't say she shouldn't be stoned he said let the man without sin throw the first stone and put the accountability on each of them and none of them decided to stone her. I wonder if the person who was the victim of there partners adultery were there if it would be a different outcome i would imagine it would be.

My point being that even these 30 like minded pastors, couldn't agree on doctrine.

He is controversial and says things most are too scared to say in todays society he preaches what i believe is the real interpretation of the bible. I haven't seen every single sermon nor do i know everything about the man but from what i have seen and heard and my wife as well we agreed mostly with his message and interpretations.

If this was something i introduced to myself or into our marriage i could see the arguement for saying its extreme or not my wife's version however this is easily disproven when she was the 1 introducing him to me and in full agreement of his teachings especially around marriage (which were a lot of the sermons she asked me to watch or we watched together)

He even had a sermon about wives being disobedient and difficult and wanting to run back to there parents cause they all of sudden don't want to submit anymore and said too bad and when my wife heard this laughed a little and i said does that remind you of anyone and she's like yeah and he's right. She then said you do really know best just sometimes im fighting something inside that tells me to do the opposite.

The transformed wife which again was her role model not mine which she introduced me to is all about a woman  learning to tame that fire/fight inside her and humble herself and submit to her husband by doing this it allows the man to stop fighting for control and to start to really love her.

There's so many stories / testimonies of my exact situation of a wife fighting constantly and then either going down the path of destruction and divorce ruining her life and living in sin or the other where they finally surrendered and left it in Gods hands and there testimonies of what happen after and how amazing there marriage and life became and how much there husbands changed and became soft and loving towards them.

This is what i believe is my situation and what i am certain needs to happen i can make all the changes take all the blame be a door mat do everything this forum is telling me and ignore all of my own beliefs / instincts and i trully believe it won't make any difference if anything it will make her move on faster seeing me as weak doormat who will do anything to keep her (Something she has directly said she didn't like and didn't like men who just cave in to women).

All i can do is try to learn here and be better within reason and tell her how it is and what needs to happen i am open to flexibility and compromise but until she learns to tame that demon she's fighting and hear Gods word and submit herself to God and learn to have a meek and quiet spirit not be a quarrelsome contentious rebellious wife then i don't really see how this is going to turn into a positive situation.

She has the books and information and testimonies which i provided its up to her to read and learn to do her part just like its my responsibility to do my part to refine and learn how to be a better husband which i admit i must do.

[Skip]



...it makes me want to fight till the death to maintain my authority over her...

Are you referring to the near death of the marriage? Is that how far the fighting for control went?

No , More of a figure of speech

Or maybe it is literally an explanation for what is happening. That is for you to decide.

This video was put out by Pastor Anderson. He apparently is proud of this day. I assume as a model of strength and conviction.

I think many (but not all) would say that this style is the opposite of the "Emotional Intelligence" you seek.


Date: Jun-2018Minutes: 6:11
Pastor Steven Anderson

Is it possible "loving like Christ" doesn't have a hierarchical or  authoritarian connotation.

Yes and i agree with this interpretation but i believe this is only the case when the wife is also in subjection to Christ and you could be a servant leader but if your wife is mislead or has evil intentions or is doing things counter to Gods word then being a servant leader would destroy you.

Is your wife mislead and evil? Is that your concern? In this context, is it possible that her leaving was inevitable?

[Fian]

Thank you for sharing in more detail your marital issues.

My wife is very intelligent and she isn't used of being proven wrong and i would imagine from her past most males just agree with anything she says because shes attractive. When she met me i challenged her and proved i could match her or even go above her intellectually it was another reason she was attracted to me. In the beginning this was good because she slowly learned she can be wrong and that i am confident enough to stand my ground when i know she is wrong.

It only started to become a problem after we got married because she would say or do something and i would explain to her why its a bad idea or why she is wrong about it and she would get irritated. I am not talking about minor things that i correct her on e.g every day life things i am talking about more important life decisions.

Excerpt
When you got tough, what did that mean?  

It meant pointing out when she was behaving poorly e.g yelling / screaming / swearing / slamming a door in my face / locking herself in our bedroom / refusing to eat / sleeping & being in bed for days or treating me poorly / cold i would just say the way your acting is childish and im not going to play a part in it when you want to talk about this so we can figure out a solution let me know.

A few thoughts on this.  I have also argued with you and found you to be rather closed.  Even when you are clearly wrong, you dig in your heels.  I suspect that your wife has the same issue with you, and she did ask you to read the Bible more (btw, a couple of verses a day is not enough.  The goal is to read the entire Bible which takes 3 years if reading a chapter a day).  If she felt that she could not reason with you and that you had ultimate authority, that would be incredibly frustrating for her.

Some of the behaviors you described above do sound quite bad.  The cold shoulder thing is pretty normal.  My wife would be cold towards me on average for 3 days after a fight.  I just learned to wait it out.  For the other items, I am curious to know what the BPD experts on this forum would recommend.  I don't think calling a person childish is helpful, though.

Excerpt
Whether she has male online friends is her decision to make.

That's where we disagree its not her decision its my decision and she did it knowing it bothered me but would be so insecure and accuse me of cheating or looking at a woman when in reality i didn't associate with females at all.

The facebook thing i was lenient with and let it go this is what i meant by being flexible but if this was a male friend that she knew in person which it wasnt i wouldn't of been flexible at all that's a non negotiable for me if you want male friends and your going to meet them while your married then you can divorce me and don't let the door hit you on the way out and i wouldn't care.

And if you divorce her, she still has her online friends.  It is truly her decision.  As the leader you set the direction you want her to go, but she will make a choice on whether to follow it or not.  My personal advice here is to make it clear that this really bothers you (which you have done), and then leave it up to God.  Fighting about it constantly only served to increase the stress in the relationship, and did not get her to give up her online friends.

Towards the end she was getting worse like she was trying to make some new friends (she didn't like any of my friends basically had me cut them off or spoke poorly about them told me that she believed 1 of my friends wives liked me as well so i don't have many friends anymore and have been isolated since all of this happened)

This does sound like typical BPD behavior - isolation of the non from family and friends.

After she got the job she was exhausted from the travelling complained about public transport and kept asking me to take her to work and pick her up from work. I did this quite a few times because i know shes new here but after it became an expectation and if i said no she would treat me poorly or be angry or not be as loving towards me for days i got over it and told her im not your taxi driver i explained why i didn't want you to get this job now what i said is happening is happening and i am not responsible for you making your own mistakes when i've given you advice and you've chosen to go against it.

I can see how this could be difficult for both sides.  One solution may have been to teach her how to drive and get her a car.  Saying, "I am not your taxi driver" was not helpful.  Sort of like Cain saying to God, "Am I my brother's keeper?"

So when i tried to explain this to her at first she agreed and she would be submissive and i would love her so much and do anything for her and she would be happy. But then it was like a demon would posess her and her behaviour would change or she was fighting some kind of internal battle and she would become disobedient and challenge me and as i said anytime you challenge me im fighting you till the death and your going to lose and so that would upset her more.

I do understand, resisting an order from your wife.  I would too.  However, I think you need to guide her in more positive ways of asking you for things and disagreeing with you.  It is possible to disagree with you, but not challenge your authority.

[understandBPD]

I think many (but not all) would say that this style is the opposite of the "Emotional Intelligence" you seek.

Considering as i mentioned i wasn't aware of who pastor anderson was until my wife introduced his sermons i would imagine that she's aware of his teachings surrounding marriage and agreed with them if she asked me to watch them.

So posting things about him because you personally don't like him or blaming that on my situation is pretty poor taste.

I'm not here to argue about your beliefs i don't really care what you believe or what you think of pastor anderson and as mentioned i don't even care that much for pastor anderson myself he was only mentioned because i agree with his view of marriage and submission which aligned with my wife and my own views. You don't need to share those same views but i also don't have to be a doormat under the guise of being a good husband or claiming its what Christ taught or that its the opposite of emotional intelligence to want my wife to be submissive.

This is a BPD forum for people to try to reconcile relationships with someone who has BPD.

Is your wife mislead and evil? Is that your concern? In this context, is it possible that her leaving was inevitable?

Considering she's told me in her past she's messed with witchcraft and demons and then actively told me she was fighting a demon inside then made comments about fighting something inside her amongst all the other issues. The pastor told me if she's saved she can't be posessed (she is saved) but her behaviour and attitude changed so much since i met her and throughout the relationship i noticed different personalities or attitudes sometimes she was so caring and loving other times i could kind of feel a evil destructive energy. (This is why originally i thought she had Dissassociative Identity Disorder with multiple personalities given roles and splitting when something triggers it and have a "protector" personality take over which is cold / lacks empathy and blocks out the person they deem trigger aka me at moment)

I don't believe my wife is evil but i believe she is very mislead and lost and making a very serious and damaging mistake. Yes it is possible this might of been inevitable it could be God protecting me from something that's why i made the comment i don't blame God for what is happening he put us together and blessed us and he decides what ultimately happens. But i want to believe my wife can be saved from making this mistake of divorce and she can learn where she's also gone wrong and then we can come back together and put what we've learned into practice.

All of th is is concerning to me and worries me greatly.

I don't think calling a person childish is helpful, though.

Agreed however at the time i was unaware she might of had BPD and assumed it was because she was young and being immature. After spending more time learning about BPD and also reading about validation i can understand how saying to someone even if they haven't got BPD that there immature , childish or acting like they are posessed by a demon isn't counter productive and not helpful at all.

 My personal advice here is to make it clear that this really bothers you (which you have done), and then leave it up to God.  Fighting about it constantly only served to increase the stress in the relationship, and did not get her to give up her online friends.

We didn't fight about it and i made it clear i didn't like it. Its not that she didn't give up her online friends its i allowed it to continue i could of made her delete her social media if i wanted i opted to be compromising and let her keep social media since she was in a new country with no friends here. That was my decision and left the rest to God.

This does sound like typical BPD behavior - isolation of the non from family and friends.

Well she did a good job at that because i have nobody other than my mother and almost fell into a dark pit of self blame and thinking i was solely responsible for everything and she was flawless but im wide awake to the reality that isn't the case.

I can see how this could be difficult for both sides.  One solution may have been to teach her how to drive and get her a car.  Saying, "I am not your taxi driver" was not helpful.  Sort of like Cain saying to God, "Am I my brother's keeper?"

The first thing i did when she was here was help her get her learner license i had been teaching her to drive for months and she was almost ready to go for her practical test.

I said i wasn't her taxi driver because she would treat me poorly for not wanting to take her like i was obligated to and i wasn't having any part of that. She made a poor decision that went against my advice and she deserves the consequences of that poor decision so in future she learns why she should listen to her husband and that i don't make decisions or advise her for the fun of it without any legitimate reasoning. I do agree it wasn't helpful and there would be more productive ways to address the situation however this was a build up of irritation from her constant draining behaviour.

I do understand, resisting an order from your wife.  I would too.  However, I think you need to guide her in more positive ways of asking you for things and disagreeing with you.  It is possible to disagree with you, but not challenge your authority.

I sat down with her for about 5 hours one day and explained to her what i meant by challenging my authority how it makes me feel and react and why its counter productive she agreed that she shouldn't do this and actually was really good afterwards. In return it made it so easy for me to lovingly want to do anything for her and never felt like she's taking advantage of me or has control in a malicious way.

You need to understand her behaviour was bad she constantly had nightmares said the room we sleep in had a demon or ghost and was depressed and unmotivated. She constantly put me down and accused me of cheating and doing all kinds of untrue things and it was like because she was miserable i deserved to be blamed for everything. It felt like no matter how much i tried to do things differently or be better it was never good enough.

Some days she would be fine and completely normal and loving the next day she'd be the complete opposite the next she would be crying all over the place and telling me she's thinking of suicide. Then she thought it was her hormones and asked me to pay $2000 for a lady who was experienced with hormone issues which i did. From when i first met her she had issues with depression , panic attacks , she was underweight and other issues and i worked through all of them with her and helped her become a healthy weight and worked through her other health issues.

I did everything in my power to help her and make her life better i provided for her before we even got married and travelled to her country when we were stuck about 6 times which was expensive i've put my entire being and soul into her and this marriage and when i finally was tired and depressed myself and struggling she left me here to suffer alone going through other issues outside the relationship alone.

This isn't how you love someone its not how you show loyalty or uphold your vowels and then when i seek help or advice it seems like im the person to be blamed its all my fault its all my beliefs and opinions etc but the 2 most crazy things are

1.I had all of these beliefs before during and after marriage they never changed and she loved me and married me in agreement to them.

2.She has a history of all of these issues and running away from her problems and discarding , depression etc etc all before she ever met me during and after yet somehow this is my fault and she left because of all my problems.

It's just very unmotivating reading some of these comments i came here trying to improve myself get help and motivation and find some hope that despite having BPD i could work through things and have a fullfilling marriage with someone i love dearly and right now im feeling like its already done and dusted everythings my fault "again" and she isn't coming back.

[Fian]

Thank you for answering all of my questions.  I can see that you have tried to be more flexible than I initially thought from your original comments.  When it comes to how to deal with BPD crazy, I will have to defer to others on this board that have much more knowledge on the subject than myself.

[Skip]

To stay on point.

he was only mentioned because i agree with his view of marriage and submission

If I read this correctly (see below), you mentioned him specifically because you also agree with his style.

pastor anderson gave an example about how his wife approaches him when she needs help. If she challenges his authority and tells him to do something as if shes in power e.g go change the childs diaper in a demanding way he would say hold on who do you think your speaking to like that im not going to do that im going to go to war with you build a bunker and get my machinegun out and fight you till the death.

My point (so it doesn't get lost) is that fighting to the death means that there is a casualty. Clearly there is a casualty in the video. And others are warned that that they will be a casualty (fired, kicked out, etc.) if they question this leaders authority. And he is aggressive and threatening his wrath to a room full of people who most likely agree with his belief (e.g., the Trinity).

Most Christians believe in the Trinity, so, let's accept this video as example style (not beliefs).

I think many (but not all) would say that this style is the opposite of "Emotional Intelligence" you seek.

"Emotional Intelligence" is about empathy, effective communication/social skills, self-awareness, self-regulation, and motivation.

In the video example, its pretty clear that Pastor Anderson fears dissent in his ranks, and is using strong-arm tactics to curb dissent with control. He has poor self-awareness and self-regulation. You assumed I dislike him, not because I said that (I didn't), but because you see his behavior in a negative way and assumed it.

Everybody does.

There are elements of Pastor Anderson's reaction in your relationship, too. Not the same, but at the core, similar.

Why does any of this matter?

You can see it in Anderson (its very clear), but if you can't see it in yourself or can't let it go, you have little chance of improving your marriage. And after all, that's why you are posting here.

I know you've said many times, she has an iron clad obligation to you (which she renounced), you say there is nothing you can do about it (but you have been contacting here every week for the last six months), and you expect her to fix this (which there is no indication that is on her radar). In my years here, I have never seen the dynamic you are advocating be successful - the partner shutting down and moving out for an extended period over a disagreement(s) and our member doubling down on their side of the conflict(s) and the partner dropping their position and adopting the position of our member.

Food for thought.

[Gravity Man]

I will try to post more later, but a few thoughts for you.

1.  Go to Quora and read everything posted by a Wendell H. Biggins.  Some of the most helpful stuff out there in my opinion.
2.  You do not seem to be able to wrap your head around the idea that your wife sent you this book and you want to follow it - but now she apparently does not want to follow what she was recommending you do.  To me, this is hallmark BPD behavior.  Happens all the time with me.  I could give many examples.  I will give one.  If my wife knows about anyone with marriage troubles, the first thing she would say is that they should go to marriage counseling.  However, she tells me how horrible I am and our marriage, but when I suggest marriage counseling she refuses to go.

[understandBPD]

You can see it in Anderson (its very clear), but if you can't see it in yourself or can't let it go, you have little chance of improving your marriage.

Except i don't follow everything Anderson does i am my own person. These issues stem from my wifes behaviour which we don't even have a diagnosis for and i do not believe this is entirely my fault you can keep trying to beat me into submission and play the fear tactic with me about she's going to be gone for good or not come back etc but i've been through all of this already.

Let me try to explain this again

I do not believe i am the sole reason she left and i believe a large part of why she left is her own traumas and problems she exhibited all of these serious issues before i was a part of her life therefore we can summarize that i am not reason why she was like this and there was something or someone else which had cause all of these mental health issues.

She then entered into a relationship and then a marriage in agreement with who i am and my beliefs matched hers if they didn't match or she wasn't the person she portrayed then i wouldn't of married her to begin with.

I am now being told this is my problem its my fault and unless i behave in a certain way counter to who i have always been then there's no chance she's coming back.

Here's the biggest issue i've already told her i was willing to change and do things different and have a different dynamic in the marriage and if she would sit down with me and discuss the issues / areas she has a problem with we could work through them to come to some kind of agreement.

That is basically what your saying i refuse to do which isn't true her response was nil nothing not even an acknowledgement. (I'm sure even with such poor behaviour from her its going to somehow be my fault my problem and my responsibility to fix.)

I can see that you have tried to be more flexible than I initially thought from your original comments.

It's pretty much why at this point im getting irritated constantly hearing its my fault. I get that there's no point in people pointing out her issues because it does nothing to help the relationship but it feels more like people seem to think she's the victim in this and that im this terrible person. I am a normal guy who met a woman who had believes views and goals that aligned with mine. I married this woman and then she became someone different she's had a history of issues before me and now somehow this is my fault and i've caused these problems in her life.

It's ridiculous.

You do not seem to be able to wrap your head around the idea that your wife sent you this book and you want to follow it - but now she apparently does not want to follow what she was recommending you do.

It's not that it wasn't a book she sent it was her entire personality from day we started speaking and for all of the years of our relationship up until the marriage. This was who she was what she preached what she read what she watched and what she wanted and it aligned with what i wanted that is why we got married. After the marriage is when it all started to go down hill within a week that's not my fault and i can't be blamed for under the assumption that a woman i had known for years prior to marriage was going to just magically decide that she wants the opposite now.

I mean even in saying all of that she hasn't said she does not want this dynamic or does not want to be submissive or even wants to change the dynamic of the relationship. She's just had trouble not being rebellious and making poor decisions in her life which has been a theme even before me. That is why i said she needs guidance and to humble herself and not someone who just does anything she wants because it will be a path of destruction.

If someone i love can walk out on me when i need them and stonewall be for 6 + months and show no empathy whatsoever why in the world would i be willing to do anything this kind of person wants me to do ? that's a complete joke at this point.

Everyone here keeps saying if i do this if i do that guys i've said everything under the sun to try to get her to come to the table to speak with me i was willing to compromise be flexible and even re-evaluate my view of marriage roles and the dynamic of the marriage if she felt there was issues there she didn't want any part of it she's behaving like a immature child with no accountability or responsibility for her own poor behaviour or actions and i am not going to be blamed for all of it.

If she chooses to blow up our marriage and make more mistakes in her life no amount of saying any of the things ive already said is going to change that and i've always said i honestly believe unless she can humble herself and hear Gods words and fight against whatever demon she's facing then it seems to be really out of my control.

I have mentioned what i plan to do but unless she decides to also partake and be reasonable and honor her vowels and be a decent humanbeing then it makes no difference what i say or do or what im willing to change.

[Fian]

You are right.  You can do everything perfectly on your side, and it will still come down to whether she wants to give the marriage another chance.  On this board, we are pushing you so that your marriage has the best chance for success.  There is another thread for those that aren't interested in saving their marriage.  If you post there, you would get very different advice.

At this point, I would say that she probably isn't feeling much empathy.  She is afraid and in pain, and in that state it is difficult to focus on the pain and needs of others.  That doesn't mean she wants the marriage to end.  My advice to you is to try and get her in a state where fear isn't driving things for her.  Focus on having a positive conversation with her, as we discussed before, aka no fighting, blaming etc.  You say that you are willing to be flexible and try new things, but she doesn't know that.  All she knows is how things were when she left, where she felt that she couldn't convince you of anything.  So, for now, I would counsel you to wait until the right moment, and then schedule a low conflict meeting with her.  Hold out hope that this approach gives your marriage a chance.  There are no guarantees at this point, and she needs to make changes in her life too, but there is still reason for hope.

[Cat Familiar]

From my perspective, there’s no point in casting blame against you. You have come here to learn how to better communicate with someone who has BPD. That you are willing to be open to different approaches in how you talk with her (once you have a chance to do that) gives you tools you likely wouldn’t have had previously. (It was a challenge for me to learn to speak to my BPD husband in a different way than I was doing. I’d often been told that I was a good communicator, yet it all went awry when I tried to talk with him. I was completely mystified about what went wrong.)

The biggest problems in having a BPD partner are: 1. On one hand, they feel like there’s something wrong with them. Yet should someone else address the problem, they immediately feel attacked and accuse the other of bad intentions, or project the issue on the other person—“No, you’re the crazy one!”  2. Should they even be inclined to consider therapy (most refuse to do so), they usually quit after only a few sessions  3. The *non* partner must do all the work in improving the relationship

Yeah, it’s not fair. But it’s the facts. If she is truly someone with BPD, expecting her to meet you halfway isn’t going to happen. Expecting her to meet you even a quarter of the way won’t either. Best you can hope for is a baby step or two, and maybe after that, another step.

It is possible to improve communication with a BPD partner, but there are no quick fixes. You will have to be willing to live with a lot of dysfunctional behavior and hold your own, which I’m sure you can do. I’m not so sure about the first part of the previous sentence.

The goal of a submissive wife seems in direct contradiction to BPD. Read some of the threads here. Members ache for their partners to even be the slightest bit cooperative. Sure, you two may have matched well when unmarried, but once intimacy deepens with a BPD partner through marriage or living together, different parts of the personality appear—parts that might have not been appealing at first glance. We all do this to some extent. We are on our best behavior at the beginning of a relationship, and as it progresses, we might allow ourselves to become more casual, less compliant, more argumentative. However, with BPD, these patterns are on steroids.

Sure, she might have appeared to be the perfect match when you first got together. As I’ve mentioned previously, immaturity could play a role in bringing out some of the difficult behaviors you’ve experienced. Also most people don’t have any idea of what it is like to marry someone and live with them on a day to day basis. It’s all fun and games when dating, but dealing with life’s routine  problems and differences in opinions once you are a committed couple, can be an experience one has never anticipated. Then again add BPD and multiply all these potential issues by 1000.

So she may have been completely honest and forthright about her beliefs and attitudes prior to actually being married. And then, life threw her a surprise, as things may have been far different than she expected. Back to the age issue—young women tend to be very idealistic and have a romanticized concept of what marriage is. As we get older, we understand that there is a lot of mundane work to do to maintain a household, a great potential for disagreement, no matter how similar our world view is to our partner.

Bottom line, should communication resume with a positive outcome, if she is someone with BPD, don’t expect a magic fix overnight.

[understandBPD]

You say that you are willing to be flexible and try new things, but she doesn't know that.  All she knows is how things were when she left, where she felt that she couldn't convince you of anything.

This isn't correct she knows because i've told her on the phone in 1 of the only conversations we had. I've made it clear in letters i've written and also via email she knows loud and clear that i took responsibility for my mistakes and i was working to improve myself and was willing to be flexible and make compromises to make her happy.

She hasn't been reasonable whatsoever.

There are no guarantees at this point, and she needs to make changes in her life too, but there is still reason for hope.

Why can't she communicate to me what she is doing or what she needs when i've asked ? All i wanted was for her to explain to me what is happening so im not stuck in limbo if she is set on divorce then say that to me. If she needs space to heal or improve her self then just say that. I even told her if she just explained to me what is happening it would make it easier for me to understand and give her the space she needs. She refused to say anything wouldn't say she wants a divorce wouldn't explain what her plan is and wouldn't even say she needs space.

From my perspective, there’s no point in casting blame against you. You have come here to learn how to better communicate with someone who has BPD. That you are willing to be open to different approaches in how you talk with her (once you have a chance to do that) gives you tools you likely wouldn’t have had previously.

Correct and i've already learned a lot about better methods to handle conflict and discovered i've been invalidating without even knowing and spent time learning and reading about validation and emotional intellignece i've put so much work into actively trying to correct my own flaws but it feels so fruitless when i've just been stonewalled the entire time.

The *non* partner must do all the work in improving the relationship

Exactly how i've felt from Day 1 till now.

You will have to be willing to live with a lot of dysfunctional behavior and hold your own, which I’m sure you can do. I’m not so sure about the first part of the previous sentence.

I've been incredibly patient and understanding with her and i am willing to work with her and help her and like i said from the start the main thing for me is the faithfulness the other stuff i can continue to forgive but the stonewalling is a whole different thing its so destructive and malicious.

Sure, she might have appeared to be the perfect match when you first got together. As I’ve mentioned previously, immaturity could play a role in bringing out some of the difficult behaviors you’ve experienced.

Naturally everyone is going to be the best they can in the courting stage i understand this and i also explained a lot of this to my wife and the stages of a relationship and what to expect from marriage i didn't paint any fantasy ideal of it i've always been very realistic and said we are going to fight and have issues but we will work through them as long as we never give up on each other.

She was all onboard with that yet 1 week into marriage she's trying to run home to her father and then throughout the entire marriage her solution is when we fight she's just gonna run home and block me out which is a absolutely pathetic way to deal with conflict after you've promised 1 thing and your now doing the opposite its extremely disappointing to me.

[Cat Familiar]

“absolutely pathetic way to deal with conflict after you've promised 1 thing and your now doing the opposite its extremely disappointing to me”

I think just about everyone here on this forum will have a similar story, and a similar sense of disappointment.

With BPD, you are promised the moon, only to later discover it was just a reflection in a puddle.

[understandBPD]

Tonight i was thinking that after my wifes birthday if i don't hear anything from her and after i contact her father and ask if he would try to help mediate between us.

I would like to send her an email just saying that im sorry for hurting her. Asking her to forgive me and to give me the opportunity to make things right. Telling her i don't want to be stubborn or prideful any longer. Telling her that i miss her dearly and i don't want to lose her and that i am willing to do whatever it takes to improve this situation.

Something a long these lines as the last thing i say to her for a long period of time.

Do you think this is a good idea and is there specifically i should consider also saying in this email. I haven't contacted her in over 2 weeks so far.

[once removed]

it seems like im the person to be blamed its all my fault its all my beliefs and opinions

its a frustrating, and heartbreaking position to be in, when your wife has left, you cant speak to her, you dont know what is or isnt going to happen, and it feels like someone (everyone) is telling you that its your fault that it happened. and my heart goes out to you.

i remember when my ex broke up with me, and i was a basket case. she jumped straight into another relationship, and i had a lot of evidence she was in the process of that a while before we ever even broke up. my parents were very helpful and supportive of me, but at one point, they very gently suggested that perhaps me emotionally and physically abandoning the relationship (i hadnt even seen her in weeks) might have played a part in that (they said this to help me better understand what i was going through and how i got there). i couldnt hear it or accept it, and the idea sent me into a tailspin. it meant, to me at the time, that "everything was my fault, and i was to blame".

of course, that isnt what they were telling me at all (nor were they telling me that it made what she did okay), but at the time, its all i could hear, or feel.

that is often the case when a person is in crisis. they are especially prone to different kinds of distorted or "twisted" thinking. theres a good write up on these forms of thinking here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56199

do you recognize any of these going on?

for example, no one has suggested you be a doormat. in fact, the opposite has been suggested. and yet, you repeatedly refer to the advice being given to you as a suggestion to grovel, or be a doormat.

or, for another example, in one sentence you describe yourself as a loving and benevolent husband, and then, in another, you speak with contempt toward your wife. you have said, in some form, that she is a childish personality disordered woman throwing a tantrum, several times.

It's just very unmotivating reading some of these comments i came here trying to improve myself get help and motivation

everyone in this thread is here to help you do that, just as they were for me when i came here in crisis all those years ago. of course, no one here is in contact with your wife - we cant advise her - so the focus is necessarily on you, and what is within your control and ability.

when i first joined your thread, i saw a brother hurting who was crying out for help, but having a hard time synthesizing some of that help; and frankly, rejecting it pretty hard. thats not uncommon. therapists see it all the time when a patient first enters therapy. the patient often has to make something of a leap of faith, and trust in the help theyre being offered, and it isnt easy to do. if they cant do it though, theres very little that can be done.

so my message to you was largely to lower your guard a bit, and try to trust in the advice and help you were receiving. to point out the possibility that god led you here, as he did me, for reasons i couldnt yet imagine. as part of that process, god, through the help i received, changed my thinking, about countless things, including my ideas on relationships and how they were supposed to be, and, frankly, who i was. likewise, in my walk of faith, god has led me numerous times to a greater understanding of who he is, and changed many of my ideas. i consider all of those things to be emotional and spiritual growth.

by and large, you have rejected virtually all of the advice and help you have been offered, and even rejected the messengers themselves. i have to tell you that in my 12 years here, you have gotten the very best of the best that this place has to offer.

certainly, you are not obligated to follow any of that advice, and especially if it conflicts with your values and who you are.

at the same time, the worldview you have constructed may be making it very difficult for you to navigate, to see the help offered you for what it is, or to accept it, let alone utilize it.

You don't need to share those same views

i know this wasnt directed at me, but i dont. you and i are brothers in christ, but we have very, very different views on some of the things being discussed. thats okay. it is my goal, bpdfamily as an organizations goal really, to help you live and act according to your values. it is my belief that every person is "living their best life" when they are living in a way that is true to their values/themselves.

so why bring up your beliefs at all? several reasons.

the first being that theyre very important to you. they guide you. as they should.

the second being that they are a significant part of the conflict between you and your wife.

the third being that there is such a thing as being too rigid with ones values.

i would really encourage you to read this. it talks extensively about boundaries, values, their differences, and the differences between independent vs interdependent values (how they play out in relationships), which is at the heart of the conflict of your marriage. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0;all

in its summary, it mentions this:

Be realistic    Being realistic about values is important. If we have an unusually large number of uncompromisable independent values / core values, we may be too dogmatic to have a relationship with very many people. At the same time, if we have so few independent values, or such a weak commitment to them, we will then be "undefined" to ourselves and to others. When that happens, the only values that matter are those of others. The latter is common in codependent or enmeshed relationships.

"undefined" might also be thought of as "being a doormat".

but when we primarily seek information that reaffirms our worldview and reject out of hand what challenges it, when everyone else is weak and watered down, when we have all the answers but nothing seems to be working, we may be too dogmatic to have a relationship with very many people.

I had all of these beliefs before during and after marriage they never changed and she loved me and married me in agreement to them.

as for your wifes beliefs, i want to say, loudly, that you are seriously, seriously underestimating the extent to which this split happens in relationships all the time, in both major and minor ways.

do you know how many marriages end over one party changing their mind about having children? or changing religions? or disagreements over parenting that were once complete agreements? or, for that matter, how many relationships end over far, far more minor changes of mind?

my ex changed her mind, almost immediately, about a few significant things we had been in complete agreement about. i didnt think that was fair. she didnt think what i did about it was fair. i didnt think what she did about it was fair. they remained a major, constant source of conflict, throughout the entirety of our relationship.

trying to drag someone back to those beliefs, or preferences, or agreements, isnt only a losing battle, it is the perpetuation of conflict.

there is a lot right now that isnt in your control, and isnt your fault. marriage, moving to another country, these are major upheavals in a persons life. for a person with depression, or bpd, or both, it is not surprising that she spent a great deal of time, essentially in breakdown mode. no one is to blame for that. and to the extent that your role is to be a supportive husband, supporting someone with emotional special needs is not intuitive. it wasnt exactly an easy change of environment for you either.

the fact remains, if your wife came back tomorrow, you would, i think, continue to need a great deal of support in trying to repair the marriage. it would remain a tentative situation, where a lot could go wrong. navigating that is going to require a strong support system, and without a lot of room for trial and error.

it would necessitate a very different game plan and approach. it probably will necessitate doing some things that are outside your comfort zone (like resisting the urge to be heard and have your wounds acknowledged), and looking at different ways of managing conflict.

thats not going to work if you cant trust, or otherwise utilize the support youre asking for.

Do you think this is a good idea and is there specifically i should consider also saying in this email.

these all sound like nice things to say.

the problem is you have said them all before. she heard them the first time. repeating yourself might look needy, or it might look like pressure, or it might look like trying to be heard rather than listen, or any combination of the above.

tell her happy birthday. wish her well on her special day. let that speak for itself.

[understandBPD]

do you recognize any of these going on?

5. Jumping to conclusions
6. Magnification
7. Emotional Reasoning
8. "Should" statements

for example, no one has suggested you be a doormat.

This is mainly because i am the person who's experienced everything in the relationship and the people giving advice only know as much as i have written. I've been treated extremely poorly and subject to behaviour that isn't deserved and its upsetting. So to then be told i should be being nicer or more compromising etc when i have actually done a lot to make things work is frustrating.

you describe yourself as a loving and benevolent husband, and then, in another, you speak with contempt toward your wife. you have said, in some form, that she is a childish personality disordered woman throwing a tantrum, several times.

This is really again just frustration at being treated this way knowing that nothing i've done has justified this treatment and then endured it for 6 + months. If i had done something deserving of the treatment i would be more understanding and tolerant because i could understand why i am being treated like this and know i deserve it however this is not the case currently.

by and large, you have rejected virtually all of the advice and help you have been offered, and even rejected the messengers themselves.

That is definetly not the case i value the people who are contributing in this thread and helping me. If i felt the advice and information being given here was useless or didn't agree with it then i wouldn't continue the discussion on here i would just go somewhere else where people agree with me.

That being said i don't have to accept everything a person on the internet tells me but i do take everything said into consideration and think about it alot.

when we primarily seek information that reaffirms our worldview and reject out of hand what challenges it

I'm not really sure why you keep saying i've rejected the information i've taken everything onboard and into consideration and even agreed with some peoples input completely. I am open to logic and being compromising on things involving my marriage and there's some things i won't compromise on even if that means the marriage ends in divorce. (Male friends , Adultery , Unfaithfulness are all redline deal breakers for me i won't compromise on these and if these are the reasons that the marriage end in divorce so be it i won't have a single regret)

Everything else i am open to discussing with my wife and trying to be flexible and come to some kind of agreement that works for both of us. Infact she knows when she's been submissive in the past its worked highly in her favor she's seen how i react when she shows me she is willing to submit without question i am willing to do almost anything for her and i am very easy going and trusting of her when she has been like this in the past.

When she's been rebellious and fights me its gone the opposite way and this is why to me its very hard to understand why she has such a difficult time submitting to me. It's also why i think it has more to do with her past than with me.

as for your wifes beliefs, i want to say, loudly, that you are seriously, seriously underestimating the extent to which this split happens in relationships all the time, in both major and minor ways.

I understand this but when you marry someone you go into that commitment believing every word they've said so if or when there is a split its extremely hard to comprehend especially when i am the type of person to stick to my word if i say something i mean it and its not changing. (within reason)

the problem is you have said them all before. she heard them the first time. repeating yourself might look needy, or it might look like pressure, or it might look like trying to be heard rather than listen, or any combination of the above.

I've actually never told her that i want to stop being prideful and stubborn and feel like after her birthday and speaking with her father i would like to apologize for hurting her point out some of the things i want to change and ask her to forgive me. Then mention that i would like her to help me improve as well and to give me the opportunity to be a better husband before she decides to end the marriage.

[Fian]

I've actually never told her that i want to stop being prideful and stubborn and feel like after her birthday and speaking with her father i would like to apologize for hurting her point out some of the things i want to change and ask her to forgive me. Then mention that i would like her to help me improve as well and to give me the opportunity to be a better husband before she decides to end the marriage.

In my opinion, I wouldn't jump to that conversation so quickly.  My advice remains that the goal is to first have a low conflict conversation first.  Don't be so quick to "work on the marriage", but just to have a conversation that opens the door to future conversations.

[understandBPD]

In my opinion, I wouldn't jump to that conversation so quickly.  My advice remains that the goal is to first have a low conflict conversation first.  Don't be so quick to "work on the marriage", but just to have a conversation that opens the door to future conversations.

Assuming her father isn't / won't help what would you suggest i say or do ?

So far her father hasn't really seemed to be helpful in the situation at all he hardly responds to my messages and the last message he just asked me what has changed i told him everything and he never replied

My wife also stopped responding to my mother but still has her on facebook ...

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How many unanswered emails/texts/dms/phone messages have you sent her since she left?

How many unanswered emails/texts/dms/phone messages have you sent to her dad?

[understandBPD]

How many unanswered emails/texts/dms/phone messages have you sent her since she left?

4 emails , 0 texts , 0 dms , 0 phone messages (last email sent was about 2 and half weeks ago)

How many unanswered emails/texts/dms/phone messages have you sent to her dad?

0 emails , 0 texts , 2 msgs whatsapp , 0 phone messages (last about 3 weeks ago)

Is this really too much contact ?

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Question - how often do you email her and what was longest gap between 2 emails?

Longest gap is about 7-8 days between emails or when i would try to contact her but i've just tried to get everything off my chest now make sure it's impossible for her to not understand what my 1 condition of keeping our marriage is and ensure she understands i don't believe its all my fault and im well aware she has issues and has contributed

Can I get recount?  

[understandBPD]

Can I get recount?

Last email i sent her was on the 7th september.

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She left 6-7 months ago. 

How many total emails/texts/dms/phone messages have you sent her since she left?

How many unanswered emails/texts/dms/phone messages have you sent her since she left?

[understandBPD]

How many total emails/texts/dms/phone messages have you sent her since she left?

15-20 emails / around 10 txt (while i was in her country) / whatsapp normal conversations until she blocked me ? / no phone messages

How many unanswered emails/texts/dms/phone messages have you sent her since she left?

She replied to 3 emails / 2 txts / all messages until she blocked me / spoke to me 3 times on phone while i was in her country

I get your trying to tell me that im contacting her too much but for 6-7 months i don't think that is unreasonable. I've been contacting her less and less overtime giving more and more space.

That's why i was considering sending her another email after her birthday saying what i want then aiming for a month or more not sending anything ?

Don't you think by giving too much space its counter productive ? I've read about no contact and people say that sure it works in relationships but in marriages its not going to work and by just disappearing your making it easier for them to forget you (They also say the no contacting is not to help your relationship but to help you move on)

What would you say to that ? Others suggest smart contact which limited contact with space

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by and large, you have rejected virtually all of the advice and help you have been offered, and even rejected the messengers themselves.

That is definetly not the case i value the people who are contributing in this thread and helping me. If i felt the advice and information being given here was useless or didn't agree with it then i wouldn't continue the discussion on here i would just go somewhere else where people agree with me.

Did you see the irony in your response (above) when you wrote it?

I can confidently speak for most everyone posting that they feel you have blown past or debated almost everything offered. Most feel that you have been disrespectful on several occasions to the very people that are trying to help you.

The problem is that you can't "read the room" (limited empathy).  And you think how you see your actions is how others should and need to see them (limited self awareness).

Now, this isn't about us I'll stay on point...

If you have exhibited limited empathy and limited self awareness at this level in your 30+ post-separation communications, this is a big problem that needs to be resolved. Based on your posts here, the reaction of the recipients (wife, fil, therapist), and your most recent gifts and draft post to your wife - its pretty obvious that this is how they feel and its why they have gone low-contact and then no-contact in response.

Communications like these have a cumulative effect. The more incidences of limited empathy, limited self awareness, the further down the Gottman scale you go and the  more people will feel committed to stonewall as it appears you can't change. And as you said earlier, you and your wife were already at Gottman stage 4 when the separation started.

I think the real question to ponder right now is whether you want to focus future discussions:

1) on what went wrong during your 10 months together, who was at fault, does she have a personality disorder, were you abused, how to heal from that abuse, etc.

2) on what the Bible says about marriage and how to deal with the various possible decisions you wife can make

3) how to acquire better emotional intelligence skills to apply during the last 5 months of the divorce court cooling off period

4) validating the course you have selected a few threads previously. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=356387.msg13200587#msg13200587

To make any progress, we need focus.

[understandBPD]

I think the real question to ponder right now is whether you want to focus future discussions:

3) how to acquire better emotional intelligence skills to apply during the last 5 months of the divorce court cooling off period

This to me is probably the most important but i am struggling to grasp the concept of just going into no contact for months on end and can't logically understand how this can be helpful which is what i am trying to understand.

I guess the only arguement would be like others have said has it got you anywhere so far ? No

I think its more insecurity and that fear that if i was to leave it for months and then things got worse or my wife moved on even before divorcing i would feel a lot of regret. I am going to try to change my mindset and trust her faithfulness and believe with time and space she will be more open to communication.

I do honestly appreciate the input you are giving.

[once removed]

Don't you think by giving too much space its counter productive ? I've read about no contact and people say that sure it works in relationships but in marriages its not going to work and by just disappearing your making it easier for them to forget you (They also say the no contacting is not to help your relationship but to help you move on)

i want to reply to you at greater length when i have the chance. there are a lot of moving parts here, a lot of important things to address.

focusing on here and now:

we talked about this, too. in my first reply to you, i said that no one is suggesting for you to go "no contact". "no contact" is a tool for Detaching that has nothing to do with your circumstances. its not something that anyone is going to encourage you to do on the Bettering board.

i also said there is a huge difference between "dont contact her" and "dont smother her".

the issue is not with the frequency of contact, necessarily (although that can be smothering as well), its the nature, and the timing.

i would like to apologize for hurting her point out some of the things i want to change and ask her to forgive me. Then mention that i would like her to help me improve as well and to give me the opportunity to be a better husband before she decides to end the marriage.

from your vantage point, this probably feels like a different approach. it is certainly different than if you were to demand she speak to you, or demand she come home, or anything that would obviously push her away.

but for her, its not going to feel much different. its going to feel like more of the same things she blocked you for, or otherwise has not responded to. its a conversation that she is not ready or willing to have.

it will not get across the change you want to show her. it will do the opposite. it will work against you.

talk, at this point, is cheap. while you feel as though theres nothing you can do, at a time when you want to do something, anything, i think what members are trying to say is that there is a way to show this change, to communicate this change, without pronouncing it, in a way that will be far more effective (you dont have a lot of "shots" so you need to choose them wisely). doing that may work against your comfort zone, but thats what i mean about trusting in, and utilizing the advice youre getting.

ultimately, if you want to contact her and say whatever youre going to say, youre going to do it. so far, you have done so against that advice every single time.

when i was going through my breakup (yes, here we go again), i needed (or craved, at least) a lot of reassurance, in a lot of different ways. id beg my loved ones to tell me something that made me feel better; particularly, id beg them to tell me that my ex would eventually contact me, that id hear from her again. things like that. but id also ask them about contacting her, or whether my ideas for contacting her were good ones.

they would offer me their reassurance every time, as well as telling me that my ideas about contacting her were not a good idea (for example, i almost drove an hour to leave her a note pouring my heart out, while she was 3 hours away shacking up with the new boyfriend. different circumstances obviously, but im glad i didnt do it, because theres a good chance id still be kicking myself today for that).

but inevitably, in my anxiety, i would test them. i would raise similar questions as youre raising now. id ask them, if i chose not to contact her, wont she forget me? wont she think i dont care? wont it drive her further into his arms?

they had answers for that, but in my anxiety, i only had more questions (tests). they would eventually run out of things to say, become impatient, and throw their hands up.

ultimately, i white knuckled it, and i followed all of the advice i got, whether it was what to do or what not to do, no matter how uncomfortable it made me, and today, all these years later, im grateful that i did.

moreover though, i was learning from my ability to sit with and get through that anxiety. it lost a lot of its hold on me. i realized that my anxiety encourages me to act on it, and that thats almost always a bad idea. it was great practice at emotional regulation, at a time when it seemed impossible, or even felt like it was against my very survival. i navigate better when im centered. we all do.

can you see any of this? in your anxiety, youre not hearing what we are saying or suggesting. youre arguing the same things you did before.

dont get me wrong. its wise to clarify advice youre getting. it may be wise to reject any given bit of advice youre getting. but everything being discussed now has been said already, by us, and by you.

we share/support your goals and efforts in reconciling your family. we are mindful of the pitfalls that any move, or lack of a move that may appear. the difference is to varying extents, weve been here before, seen what helps and what doesnt, and since we arent in the middle of it all, we arent lost in the fog of anxiety, and everything else. we can help guide you out of it.

WHETHER TO CONTACT OR NOT

it makes sense for you, in your current circumstances, to contact her on her birthday. it makes sense for you to wish her a happy birthday.

but right now, everything is precarious, a lot can go wrong. it wouldnt take much, even something pretty innocuous, to tip this situation into "unsaveable". like Skip said, communications like this have a cumulative effect.

if you leave the relationship out of it, if you simply wish her happy birthday, and a special day, no more, no less, it will catch her off guard. she will be expecting something that feels obligatory, something thats already been said, something that makes her feel cornered. what she will get will be a lovely, heartfelt wish, with no pressure.

there is virtually no risk, either. if you were to send her that, and she snaps and leaves, then she was going to do that already, regardless of anything you did, or didnt say.

medium to high reward, incredibly low risk, and sends a stronger message than words can convey in these circumstances.

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I think its more insecurity and that fear that if i was to leave it...

You're the leader. You need to summon the strength of the leader.

Once Removed suggested an article about twisted thinking that you read. Twisted thinking is common in depression. It's very reasonable you are depressed given the struggles of the marriage.

Look at it this way. With all good intentions and the haze of depressive thinking, you painted yourself in a corner (all those unanswered communications). When you are pointed in a corner, you only have two choices - exit across the wet paint and destroy everything, or sit and wait till it dries. Not great choices. Take the one that does the least damage. Remember reading High Conflict Couple?

.	"Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse".

I would like to send her an email just saying that im sorry for hurting her. Asking her to forgive me and to give me the opportunity to make things right. Telling her i don't want to be stubborn or prideful any longer. Telling her that i miss her dearly and i don't want to lose her and that i am willing to do whatever it takes to improve this situation.

An apology, as Fian discussed, is important. Timing is important. Content and style is really important. Genuineness is important.

The draft above has common mistake a lot of us make in apologizing after a breakup. Here is how it will likely be read:

.	I'm sorry I hurt you, not sure exactly how I need you to forgive me because i don't want to lose you   I'll be a better person and fix whatever is broken, not sure what that is, or even if I can fix it. Please do this for me.

This is not your intention, but 1) apologies have to be all about the person you are apologizing,  2) what you are apologizing about and why it is was wrong, and 3) they shouldn't ask for anything in return for the apology. An apology has to overcome the bias of Gottman 4; there is little trust and a lot of suspicion.

Let's look at how this might look if this were reversed. This is just an example to show you the contrast of a good apology and a "self-focused" apology.

Which would you prefer to receive?

This...

.	I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. Forgive me for moving out. Please respect that things are broken and we need to give it time and see what happens. Please don't call me so that I don't hurt you more. Our lives will be better in the future.

Or this...

.	I'm sorry understandingBPD for not being a meek and obedient wife and not living up to my vows. You lived up to your side of our dream and I did not. I was selfish, and I hurt you and I hurt your mother. You have every right to be disappointed and angry. I let you down. I was wrong and I'm sorry.

See?

Do you have a few of the last emails you can share? I think members need to understand what has already been said to be helpful on where to go next.

How will life change? This is the million dollar question for a little further down the road (some time after the apology). How will life change? How will you make the claim credible? She faced a lot. Living out of country is traumatic. Living with anopther person is hard. Her personal issues. You having an unusually large number of uncompromisable independent values / core values. What could / would be genuine (to her) and meaningful (to her)?