BPDFamily.com

(split from thread A few updates (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=358478.0))

I think I have found my people!

I've been dating a guy for 2 years and we live together.  He has 3 kids, and his ex is an uBPD.  (There actually might be a one time diagnosis from her early 20s - she told him that once but then denied it ever since).  She is a classic case, and the divorce itself is still being dragged on.  Admittedly the first 1 - 1.5 years after leaving he didn't push things through and they tried to work out the details themselves.  He is just now looking at involving the courts to get it settled.  That's a whole different thing - but I'm also realizing that EVERYTHING with a uBPD is more difficult.  He will also still get trapped in the FOG at times and there's some difficulty in determining what's good for the kids vs what is just appeasing her (so that she's stable for the kids is his reasoning - I call it enabling?). 

Anyway... I'm super new to all of this, and it is... something.  The massive fights.  The way logic just does not work with her.  The agreeing to one thing then backing down.  Fights that she SAYS are about one thing, but after an hour of her ranting she finally gets to the real issue so that it can be worked out.  The risky and poor decision making when we have the kids that impacts switching them back.  Twice cops have been involved, and we've had to go get them in an emergency and then scramble to cover care for a week plus while balancing our jobs (She doesn't work - current schedule is we have them Wed evenings - overnight in the summer - and then every weekend, returning them back on Sunday).  The oldest is naturally anxious and we're seeing a bit of a parentification as he's now the only "guy" in the house over there.  Her attention on the kids waxes and wanes based on if she's fighting with her affair partner or not.  All of her...inability to act "normal" and the hyper drama and cycle of ok then not has me on edge.  Constantly. 


I absolutely feel like this.  My SO is surviving - he works a physical job and is hands on with his kids during the weekends.  He does not really get a break to rest.  He also is the one that has to have the "fight" with his uBPD ex (because it rarely is just a regular calm discussion) so he is quite picky in what he tackles.  I'm on the outside - the neutral-ish third party.  I want what's best for the kids as they are all young (3, 6, and 8).  I worry about their well being.  But I'm also struggling with this lack of... control in only being able to influence or fix so much.  I will also admit that while it's not the right mindset to have... I feel like I can do a better job than their mom can.  But kids (at least young ones) need their mom - we won't cover for her but will let them make their own choices based on mom's behavior that they see.  And when chaos takes place (as it will always rear it's head at some point) I want to take over and take charge.  Because to me, it feels like the two actual parents are sometimes focused on the wrong things.  In reality, they aren't - I'm just wanting to smooth over the uncomfortable feelings (for me) ASAP - and attempt to plan my way out of the next shoe drop.  There are times where I feel like I'm being dragged along on a rollercoaster, and I hate them.

I am working in therapy to help with sitting in the uncomfortable, and attempting to recognize when it's a real issue where I/we need to step in vs me just trying to make being out of sorts going away.  I avoid uncomfortable situations all around though - as I'm trying to heal from being a people pleaser and a rocky situation with my exH.  Back then, being uncomfortable usually meant I was unsafe.  I feel like being in a support/step parent role is difficult enough and new territory for me (I don't have any kids of my own but not by my direct choice), but adding in the added nuance of a uBPD co-parent seems to be doing this on hard mode.  Other friends also in blended families don't quite get why we can't just easily do XYZ and it feels like I'm on my own island sometimes.

Hi ABetterWay and welcome  :hi:

It does mean a lot to "find our people" here. These aren't boilerplate blended family scenarios, at all -- so advice like "can't you just be nice for the kids' sake" doesn't fly for us.


That really sums it up -- PD behaviors can take an already difficult situation and ratchet it up to an 11. We can't just do the easy, simple, logical, straightforward thing when both parents aren't able to reach agreement. Hard stuff, and not immediately intuitive how to be effective.


What were the situations? Who called the police?


Oof, an hour of ranting? Been there, done that. Does your partner meet up with her in person to discuss kid issues, or is this on the phone, or at pickup/dropoff, or...?

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The stepparent role is so tricky -- knowing when to make a move and when to not micromanage, finding ways to truly support your partner without overfunctioning... it's not easy.

Does he sometimes get flooded/overwhelmed when you try to present something new to him, or try to give him advice? For us, I had to find ways to (a) be really explicit about asking if he was OK with hearing a suggestion, and (b) make sure I wasn't inadvertently criticizing his parenting when offering advice. He experienced enough criticism from his kids' mom that when it seemed to come from me, too, he felt really cornered and wasn't in a place to try anything new.

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What does your therapist think about the family dynamics going on?

Some of these details around the cops being called I'll probably delete later on for privacy/peace of mind.  So please anyone quoting that be mindful of overall details.


The first time was a year ago - cops were called by her oldest daughter (D19, not SO's kid - was 18 at the time)  They had some big fight (not unusual for them - mom had D19 as a teen herself and the parent/child line is ridiculously blurred), D19 felt unsafe/that mom was acting crazy, and called the cops.  Mom was uncooperative with the cops as she was already worked up from fighting with D19.  Cops decided to take her in under a psych hold.  SO and I had the kids for a week while she was on her involuntary hold and then a few days as it was butting into his next scheduled time with them.  She was pissed he kept them extra/longer, but agreed later that she needed that extra time to calm herself down and get back under control.  She came out from the hold with a couple different meds and was basically told that her anxiety/depression got the best of her due to all the stress.  She came out with the usual promises if getting a real job, going to the gym, quitting drinking, etc - but none of that held for longer than a couple weeks at most. 

Second time was a hit and run incident where she may or may not have been drunk (no proof - SO saw her that night but she was pretty much hysterical and not making sense).  He brought the kids back over to our place, and they stayed with us that Wed night through Sun.  As more facts came out, she was worried about the cops showing up to the house, so we took the kids back that Mon - Thurs.  They got off the bus and to her that Thurs, and an hr later the cops showed up to arrest mom  :cursing: - that's what we were trying to prevent was the kids seeing their mom get picked up.   SO picked them up, and we kept them through our regular weekend again as she was released on no bail.  This time was more stressful on the kids as there was a lot of schedule changes while in school, and knowing mom messed up.  They also saw her in hysterics this time too and that scared and confused them as well.

This one caused all kinds of chaos as a friend of mine meant well, but got involved way more than she should have (and by going to the party hit directly/through FB instead of the authorities, as we were trying to figure out fact from fiction) and then dealing with other freakouts from mom as court cases happened.  Mom ended up settling with no criminal impact, but a definite financial one (having to replace a wrecked car, higher insurance costs, lawyer fees, etc).  She was also honestly insufferable through all this and I was one of her big targets for attacks.  Thankfully most of that didn't reach me as she and I have very limited contact, and none without SO around.

Because of my friend getting involved in really unhelpful ways (kid's mom found FB screenshots and such before I even knew they had been posted AND info had gotten twisted in the telephone game), it was my really hard lesson at learning that others not involved in BPD situations just... can't relate.  It's not always black and white, and sometimes things are done behind the scenes or at a slower pace to NOT tip off the BPD and protect the kids while they are with that person.  My biggest regret is over sharing probably too much during that whole situation to my friend, to where she felt like she had to step in (even though we had things under control).  I don't know if she got caught up herself in the drama as well or if she felt we weren't moving fast/far enough but oooof.  Unfortunately I lost what I thought was a good friend in all that, and now I feel like I can't really vent to anyone IRL without them thinking they have to get involved/pull levers.


 Most pickups/dropoffs happen at the mom's house.  That's where some of the ranting happens, but not as long.  As she's mad and wants SO out of her house.  Instead, she'll try to trap him to listen about her woes and relationship problems (her affair partner was SO's long time bff so he's REALLY not interested in hearing anything about that) by initialing talking about kid things and then de-railing, or withholding needed info related to the kids like dr appt outcomes or health insurance policy changes.  Unless it's something he needs now/they need to come to an agreement about he walks out and tells her he's not interested.  And if he does need an answer and she drones on too long he leaves and tells her they can try again later when she's ready to talk about the kids and not herself.  The long rants tend to come from phone calls.  And she knows juuuust how to push SO's buttons to set him off and make him feel like he needs to be right/resolve whatever the ranting is about.  It just goes in these big painful circles of past issues and nothingness until she finally settles down.  He and I have talked about how he doesn't have to put up with it anymore.  That he can hang up/not answer/temp block her.  That if there is truly a kid emergency she can get ahold of him through other channels as she does have my number, or she can call his parents.  He's getting better there... but still needs work.  I absolutely hate all of it as conflict like that makes me uncomfortable.  So I have him at the very least take it away from me by leaving the house for a bit, or I leave, or he goes out to the detached garage so it isn't through the house.  But I still know what's going on and it ramps my anxiety to 11.  His reasoning for putting up with it is that he has to "let her rant" so that she'll finally get to whatever the thing is that's bothering her so that they can move on.  I stand firmly on the fact that it's no longer his job to emotionally regulate her (how she's using him) and he can ignore/push off until she's ready to come forward in a more calm manner.  If I didn't see actual progress on this, I'd be gone. 


He goes back and forth honestly.  He'll tell me he wants direct and honest feedback.  But if he's getting barrage of crap from the ex, he 100% gets overwhelmed.  Unfortunately I also end up triggered by the chaos/fighting and I start bombarding him with what he should do/what I need to settle myself.  We both need work here in that I gotta work on removing myself some so that I don't get all worked up and pile on, and he has work to do on not expecting me to always be the flexible one because I'm sane/reasonable.  I've asked him before how he wanted me to respond to a situation/support him - and the answer I got back was "unbridled positivity".  ...I am not a glass half full rainbows and sunshine all the time kind of person.  I am quite pragmatic, logical, and a realist.  That comment (made not that long ago) was kind of a light bulb moment on how we approach things so differently sometimes.  He does make comments that he feels like he fights with us both at the same time and that he's going to make one of us mad and feels stuck in the middle.  My knee jerk reaction is a "screw her, you're with me, I matter now so make me happy" but I can also recognize (out of the situation) that that isn't quite right either, nor the path to any sort of co-parenting.  That's it's more nuanced at times.  Again - more work needed on both of our parts there.

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We are working on giving people space for change.  Making a frame work of the ideal situation, where we are now, and letting it sit for 6 months.  Then checking back and noting progress.  Because any time he doesn't do what I'm hoping is the ideal, it triggers me.  And that's not fair to him as he's still on his own healing journey.  And - if I don't like where progress is in 6 months or a year or whatever, that it is OK to walk again.  To choose me.  I've done it before (with an exH) and I can do it again and will be just fine! 

We also talk a lot about not being the fixer.  Stepping back, and realizing some things (ok - a lot of things) I'm just not going to be able to influence as they aren't my kids and I'm not one of the primary parents.  This does get a bit messy as I always wanted kids, but it just didn't work out for me.  So there are times where I get in a bit to deep and I'm craving/expecting a level of control that just isn't realistic.

We're also working on boundaries (what's acceptable, what may seem as too controlling, and how we can't change how people interact with us or someone else - only our response).  And on sitting with the uncomfortableness of things.  When I'm uncomfortable I fight tooth and nail to get back to calm or the status quo.  A lot of this is leftover from a longtime marriage with an explosive exH and keeping him "calm".  Anything tension or uncomfortable was like a powder keg and I felt like I needed to diffuse the situation ASAP.  So even though the situations are entirely different, my body still reacts to the stress in the same ways.

I met this therapist when I was thinking of and then actually leaving my exH.  So she's been around for about 4 years or so.  I have noticed and find it interesting that when talking about my exH it was pretty clear to her it was time to go. With SO she's giving me more... room to make decisions in either direction and is more interested in guiding me to come to whatever conclusion myself.  I don't take that to mean that I'm on the right path and should just force it through, but that she does see potential in how we communicate and talk with each other that there's room to sort out at least some of these issues.

He ought to wait outside for the kids to come out.  If he goes inside, then he's on her turf and she'll feel more entitled.

Same goes for phone calls.  He needs to learn how to hit the red hang-up button and save himself a lot of grief.  Maybe he can say, as an example, "Hey, my phone just beeped, it's almost out of battery..." or a variety of outside triggered reasons to end the call.

I recall the first time I hung up on my newly separated stbEx's tirade.  She called right back and yelled at me that I wasn't allowed to hang up on her.  Yet the reality was that she often hung up on me.  The ancient entitlement truism: "Rules for thee and not for me."


It has often been commented that one of the reasons we couldn't "fix" the ex is that it's an aspect of the disorder.  BPD is a disorder of close relationships.  The Denial, Blaming and Blame Shifting are so intense that the pwBPD cannot or will not get past the emotional baggage (perceived garbage) of the ended relationship long enough to truly Listen.  We have to accept that.  We'll never "fix" the ex.

Ex would have to want to fix herself, enough to diligently apply long term therapy.  Obviously, she's not doing any substantive efforts at recovery.  That's where boundaries come in, how we respond to the other's acting out behavior, as you already acknowledged.

Not wrong - but the kids are pretty young and need some help.  Or he's swinging by the house to get the youngest and their stuff before grabbing the older two off the bus during the school year.  A case of weaponized incompetence for sure, but she never has their blankets together (the only thing we're trading back and forth at this point - unless a kid grabs a toy) and is often in bed herself as pick up is during/right after the youngest's nap.  For drop off she'll either be laying in bed until he gets there OR up and outside waiting.  The youngest can't get out of the car by herself yet, and if the ex wants to talk or start anything, she'll make herself available/put herself in his path.  I will say that more often than not in person conversations are kid related and 'normal'/need to happen. 


This is the big one, yes.  And he KNOWS, but this also tends to trigger his FOG the most for whatever reason.  The yelling starts, he tells me he can't get off because she's making up lies, and says he can't not answer or block (temporarily) in case something happens with the kids.  It's all driven on fear she'll try to take the kids from him, obligation to keep her "sane" for the kids' sake, and guilt over leaving (despite it being her that cheated and basically forced him to).  There has been progress here and he will get off the phone and not engage sometimes... it's more that when he does it is - explosive. 

Lately things have actually been a lull, AND they had a normal calm conversation concerning the kids' behaviors and equally being ready for summer to be over as the kids have hit peak boredom.  The usual stuff of seeing if the behaviors are consistent across both houses, how each house is handling them and any suggestions - that kind of thing.  This kind of talk has never happened before, as things stay fairly 99% parallel.  If anything we know what's going on at mom's house based on what the kids bring up or when they start tattling on each other.  We did both find it interesting that she claims the kids never/very rarely talk about what goes on over here.  Not sure if that's something she shut down early on, but we're claiming the win that they feel open to bring up anything with us.  He let her know that too, and when she was all "I wonder why that is" he didn't take the bait in saying maybe it's you.  LOL 

SO and I are both on edge though as incidents/mood shifts happen every few weeks, and it's been quiet.  We're also holding our breath as we approach the oldest's birthday since that marked one of her breakdowns last year.  I expect that she'll be more on edge and he'll probably catch some crap over small things like going to the school open house (separate from her and letting her take the kids), or something birthday party related.  All of it hinges on how long she's on the rocks with her AP.  (When they are off again, she's reasonable and wants to cooperate, when they are good, she's less attentive to the kids and is ready to fight with SO constantly.)

Not every suggestion mentioned here will be a perfect fit for our members.  These are ideas that worked for some of us, so you can pick and choose whichever work in your circumstances.


Just about all the pwBPD described here have a large assortment of triggers.  Birthdays are common ones, at least the timing is somewhat predictable and we're not caught totally off guard.

What I did for various school activities such as parent-teacher days was to schedule my own appointments.  This way the children are accustomed to both parents participating and the teachers saw that I was an involved parent.

As expected, BM is struggling coming up on SS8's birthday next week.  SO has seen the signs of the house being completely dark and her in the bed at pick up and drop off the past week.  Along with the kids saying she hasn't been 'feeling well' lately.  The difference is, this time she asked to talk to SO about it instead of pushing everyone away.  The youngest went down for a nap and the older two were entertained with an activity, so they stepped outside.

She was honest about her struggling, and that she was worried she was going to have another breakdown with her oldest coming for a visit, her AP being mean so they were 'off again', and worried about what happened last year.  She also stated that the kids' behavior has really ramped up and they are just... out of control.  Which matches what SO and I have seen over here.  More fights, meltdowns, talking back, etc.  And with 3 that feed off of each other it just becomes an absolute whirlwind sometimes.  Over here, we've been trying to spend one on one time with them where we can (it's sometimes a divide and conquer situation where one or 2 of them run errands while the other stays back, or taking advantage of one on one during nap time etc).  To us it's clear that the kids need attention, not just snacks and screen time shoved at them while the adult hangs out in bed.  But we can't control what goes on over there.  Instead SO suggested earlier bedtimes (these kids are also staying up late and are WIPED OUT when they come to us), more time outside, and trying to do something structured with them at least every other day or something so that the days aren't so monotonous.  They also discussed how each of them were handling the middle kid's tantrums, as she's clearly acting out for attention.  Over here, she is asked/made to go to her room until she can calm down, and then we talk it out.  Over there, mom does old school timeout in the corner - leaving her around other people.  She then ramps up the tantrums even more (and drives everyone around her crazy), until she's finally told to go to her room.  We've found if you do just straight to her room she settles down faster as she doesn't want to be removed from whatever is going on around the house.  BM liked that thought and is going to give some of those things a try.  There's also just some general ramping up of behavior because we're at the end of summer and the kids are getting bored.  Plus some rebelling knowing that they are about to go back into structured care.  All in all it seemed like a good normal co-parenting talk between them.

SO and I were talking, and we aren't sure how to move forward.  If your BPDex came to you saying they were struggling with the kids, would you offer to take them more to give her a break/let her focus on herself?  We've got 2wks til school, and I have some PTO scheduled with no plans.  SO can also plan to take a few days if needed.  The pros on our side are that we can schedule this time when and how it works around our work, instead of being thrown into an emergency situation of "I can't" from her and her checking herself into a facility or just dropping them off without warning.  The cons are that she tends to make extra bad decisions when she doesn't have the kids due to drinking heavier and focusing too much on the AP.  Neither one of us are thrilled with her involvement with the kids when she does have them (especially SO), but it's not enough to get the custody schedule changed (unless she outright agrees, which will only happen on a temp basis as she doesn't want to lose any CS).  So do we help her out so that she doesn't sink?  Or let her sink so that we can use it to put the kids in a more stable place?  She does do better with the kids once school/pre-school starts, as she has less time/structured time with them.  We already get them every weekend (they go back Sunday around noon), and it's not uncommon if we're off too that we'll take them for extra time on school breaks. 

Generally speaking, if a struggling parent can agree (and follow through) with the kids spending more time with the less-struggling parent, it's better for the kids, and better for the parent. It sounds like she is parenting at her limit -- we all have limits, and it's good that she, in that moment at least, recognized that fact.

What she does when the kids aren't with her isn't something you can control. "She drinks less when the kids are with her" or "she makes worse decisions when the kids aren't around" aren't great rationales for not moving forward with doing what's good for the kids, because it's kind of like saying "Mom needs children to stabilize her behaviors".

Does she do better with agreeing with longer-term plans or with couple-day-at-a-time kind of stuff? It might be just as disruptive to believe "OK, we have agreement for how the next 2 weeks will go" and then she sabotages/undermines, as to say "hey, how about the kids are with us Thurs to Tues instead of Fri to Sun this weekend, just so you can get some self care, and then we'll touch base Mon night and see how everyone is doing". It might depend on her personality/history.

Communicating with her with an E-A-R approach (Empathy, Attention, Respect) (https://highconflictinstitute.com/communication/calming-upset-people-fast-with-ear/) may help in hammering out agreement. If she feels respected then that may avoid shame spirals which can disrupt the process for the kids. Focusing on "I know you do a lot for them; why not take a break for yourself" -- if you can really see it and mean it -- may be more effective than implying "I don't think you can handle them".

Whatever agreement is possible between Dad and Mom, even if it's temporary, it'd be good to get it in writing (email etc). Even if Mom usually texts/does verbal communication, a BIFF followup (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=134124.0) email could be helpful for documentation:

"Hi Kids' Mom;
Thanks for the chat on Saturday about the kids' schedule for the next two weeks. Just confirming that they'll be with you on Days ABC and at our place on Days DEF, then we'll go back to the usual schedule on Day G unless we decide something different together. Have a good weekend;
Kids' Dad"

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In terms of her parenting choices at her house, can you remind me if you and your H have ever done family T together with a focus on the kids, whether the kids were involved or not? My H and I have met with child therapists a couple of times even without the kids, to discuss parenting challenges. You're allowed to meet with child therapists even if your kid(s)/stepkid(s) can't be there. It was really helpful for navigating behavior issues in a high conflict two-household situation. A child T might be able to help you and H understand what is actionable or not about how Mom runs her home -- what you have to let go of and when to intervene. It isn't always intuitive...

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Anyway, nutshell version is that it seems like a win-win to at least offer to take the kids, in a way that avoids shaming Mom. Worst case scenario is she refuses and then you're just where you were at; best case scenario is she agrees and then the kids get a break from stressed parenting.

As a general observation, nearly everyone here - us reasonably normal parents - would agree that having the children more with us is better for everyone.

If the custody and parenting schedule don't match, then that is a matter of documenting the changes, in a neutral way as kells stated.  If over time you really are getting the children more, then those emails would document a basis for a long term adjustment of the order.

As an aside, I recall a few years ago a new member asked how to force the other parent to take the other's scheduled time.  That was certainly an unusual question.  Around here we're always open to taking the kids more, as long as it's documented and we're not being manipulated.

Thought I'd update -

We made it to school starting without a major incident!!  :wee:   We went with a couple of schedule swaps instead of having them extra, as that's how it worked out best for everyone.  BM has been... surprisingly chill and very communicative in a non-combative way.  I'm accepting it the best that I can, while continuing to push off that "shoe drop" feeling.  I've even gotten a couple of "thanks" thrown my direction from her in being flexible.