X-Wife w/ BPD effect on our kids. What to do?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I've been divorced from my wife for 6 months, I was her 'favorite person' and the end of the relationship caused her issues to become acute. With my physical absence the children are increasingly bearing the brunt of her BPD.

Ongoing harassment has been difficult for me (I'm in therapy and other treatments & still this is a difficult process) but my main concern are our 3 children (13, 8 & 8.) Therapy for kids has been an issue since the ex-wife interferes with kid's treatment causing therapist to end services. Family therapy isn't an option since I've witnessed very destructive moments that only perpetuate the situation. I fear that erratic therapy will cause children to distrust therapy and thus cause more longterm harm.

I personally have found greater relief from talking with others in similar BPD situations but I don't see how I can replicate those conditions for the children without causing additional distress to the kids.

What are my options? Am I missing avenues of help for my kids so they don't develop similar issues?

[Concerned_4_kids]

I've been divorced from my wife for 6 months, I was her 'favorite person' and the end of the relationship caused her issues to become acute. With my physical absence the children are increasingly bearing the brunt of her BPD.

Ongoing harassment has been difficult for me (I'm in therapy and other treatments & still this is a difficult process) but my main concern are our 3 children (13, 8 & 8.) Therapy for kids has been an issue since the ex-wife interferes with kid's treatment causing therapist to end services. Family therapy isn't an option since I've witnessed very destructive moments that only perpetuate the situation. I fear that erratic therapy will cause children to distrust therapy and thus cause more longterm harm.

I personally have found greater relief from talking with others in similar BPD situations but I don't see how I can replicate those conditions for the children without causing additional distress to the kids.

What are my options? Am I missing avenues of help for my kids so they don't develop similar issues?

[EyesUp]

Very similar situation here. I don't have any magic bullets, although I have found that others here also share this experience and provide good advice. The standard words of encouragement are to be the best parent you can be, be prepared to endure the challenge that you clearly see ahead of you, and play the long game - eventually, your kids will recognize who is the safe parent, who is the compassionate parent, etc.

Personally, I don't think the long game is always the right answer in a parenting context. Kids learn from repetition and consistency - that is the long game - but they also need acknowledgement and much more in the moment - and that's a short game.  It can be difficult to modulate, especially while navigating emotional minefields.

I'm sure others will be along with good questions and comments, so for now I will say:  You're in the right place.

For context, you mention that the kids often bear the brunt due to your absence. What's your parenting schedule? How has your ex interfered with the kids therapy?

[Concerned_4_kids]

Thank you for your words. I use the phrase "the long game" so often, knowing that in the end the kids will come to their own conclusions about their upbringing. We actually just had an experience that I needed to jump to the short game to basically give my 13-year-old context that I knew the pressure she was under because I felt it as well. It wasn't the most artful parenting but it was real, and we both ended up holding each other and crying. And for the parents out there my 13 year old girl generally wants no contact from dad. It isn't something I will do often but we came to a point where it was important that I acknowledge the unfair position she was in and that the manipulation she was experiencing was real (OMG we deal with so much gaslighting.)

My X happens to be a social worker and has worked as a therapist so she knows all the lingo and how the system works. Therapists are often manipulated by her (especially in the beginning) but my X then gets into micromanaging the therapy, trying to twist it into family therapy - the therapist eventually figures out whats going on and rather than standing firm to help their client (my daughter) they come up with some B.S. excuse to drop her. My daughter really doesn't need traditional therapy in many respects, she is actually flourishing even with everything going on. BUT she does need to learn strategies to deal with a mom with BPD and given the confidence to see the gaslighting and the inappropriate nature of the things mom is saying to her.

I don't think its possible, but I think the best thing for her would be a virtual group of kids dealing with the same issues being run by a professional very knowledgable of BPD.

[Outdorenthusiast]

As a thought - The therapy tactics you are learning can also be shared with her.  A stable parent can be a bulwark in a storm.  13 yo usually are getting to the point of being quite self aware.  You can teach her skills in general about dealing with people who don’t respect you, etc. without calling out her mom.  How to have healthy boundaries etc.  those are life skills.  This is the approach I am taking with my 17yo, 15yo, and 13yo.

[Notwendy]

I am glad you were able to validate your 13 year old. By my teens, I was aware that things weren't all OK with my BPD mother, but the gaslighting and invalidation- it was the family rule to not say anything about her her and pretend all is "normal". On rare occasion my father would admit to it but mostly we had to go along with her point of view.

I think as the more functional parent, you can do a lot and you are way ahead of the situation by comparison. There wasn't information about BPD or the internet when I was a teen so likely my father was just trying to keep the peace with what he knew to do then. While it seems that your daughter doesn't need counseling, I would suggest otherwise. It's difficult for you to take on that role and not be triangulating with her mother. A counselor is a neutral person and that avoids this. Also, it's not easy to discuss one's own mother critically. Our culture tends to frown on it. Consider that a counselor would give her a safe space to do that.

[ForeverDad]

While it seems that your daughter doesn't need counseling, I would suggest otherwise. It's difficult for you to take on that role and not be triangulating with her mother. A counselor is a neutral person and that avoids this.

A counselor is objectively and emotionally neutral.  Long ago I read "Get Me Out of Here".  I don't remember much about it except how it ended which emphasized why the role of a counselor was so helpful... it was not an emotional relationship.

This reminds me of a post I made recently.  This woman, after years of therapy, did recover from BPD but she emphasized her therapist always maintained a professional separation, no emotional strings.

Have you read Get Me Out of Here — My Recovery from Borderline Personality Disorder by Rachel Reiland?  It's a paperback account by someone recovered from BPD.  It was exceedingly tough for her, but it turned out well for her and her family.

What helped so much was that her therapist drew a strong line/boundary concerning their interactions.  Her therapist remained absolutely neutral emotionally, not even touching.  (That's why you bear so much of the brunt of her behaviors, because your spouse can't get past the past emotional baggage of the years of close relationship with you to really listen to you.)

That book ended on a high note.  Only when her therapy was completed, she got to hug her therapist for the very first and only time.

[Concerned_4_kids]

A stable parent can be a bulwark in a storm. You can teach her skills in general about dealing with people who don’t respect you, etc. without calling out her mom. 

Very true, I'm increasingly looking for natural moments to example these skills in a way that doesn't point a finger.

[Concerned_4_kids]

I am glad you were able to validate your 13 year old. By my teens, I was aware that things weren't all OK with my BPD mother, but the gaslighting and invalidation- it was the family rule to not say anything about her her and pretend all is "normal". On rare occasion my father would admit to it but mostly we had to go along with her point of view.

I think as the more functional parent, you can do a lot and you are way ahead of the situation by comparison. There wasn't information about BPD or the internet when I was a teen so likely my father was just trying to keep the peace with what he knew to do then. While it seems that your daughter doesn't need counseling, I would suggest otherwise. It's difficult for you to take on that role and not be triangulating with her mother. A counselor is a neutral person and that avoids this. Also, it's not easy to discuss one's own mother critically. Our culture tends to frown on it. Consider that a counselor would give her a safe space to do that.

Thank you so much for sharing. So much to consider. The "gaslighting and invalidation" is so concerning to me because it makes a confusing world so much more so. Her BDP mom also isolates so the world gets scary and only mom can be trusted so I am worried that the kids could take on the BPD traits.

I also hear you when you say "A counselor is a neutral person and that avoids this" the reality has been that Mom has harassed, interfered and demonized the councilors who haven't done what Mom tells them to do. Therapists don't want to deal with that, they have found convenient excuses to abandon my kid's therapy saying "I'm not right for the family" or she doesn't need therapy at this time (which happened 2 months before I had to hospitalize my then 12 year old kid for suicidal ideation.) There are also therapists who think it's a he said/she said sort of divorce dynamic, and by the time they realize whats real, they want out.

I want my kids to have a neutral advocate to teach them skills but the system isn't set up for that - at least in my experience. While I have court granted ultimate decision making ability, mom still has 50% custody so she is involved in every mental health move I make, and when therapists don't play ball with her - she taints the process.

It makes me say the serenity prayer often.

[ForeverDad]

There are also counselors at schools who can be clued in and offer her assistance and independent observations.  And I doubt the counselors there will turn your daughter away even if Dearest Mom tries to intrude.

One thought... How well do your children know that they don't have to submit to interrogations?  I confess, my grown son can't seem to be able to hang up when talking with his mother.  He tells me it just makes conversations worse later.  Like, yeah, she does it since it's working for her.

Over on our Tools & Skills Workshops board we have a couple topics on Boundaries.  People with acting-out disorders such as Borderline are known to resist boundaries.

So it is we who shoulder the responsibility to enforce our boundaries.  Our boundaries are how we respond to poor behavior.  A simplistic example could be, "If you do or don't do ___ then I will do or not do ___."

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0

Another response that would have to be firm is "No."  Though I'm guessing the children have been cowed so much for so many years they can't imagine standing up to their mother?  As always, expect boundaries to be tested and relentlessly challenged.  It's a feature of the dysfunctional mindset.

Similar to recovery, progress is usually a process, not an event.

So although you have final say, ex can still insert herself into counseling?  Does she attend the sessions as well?  Would you have to go back to court to set more detailed limits on that?  What is a lawyer's legal perspective on finding a practical solution?

[ForeverDad]

I feel I wasn't as clear as I'd hoped.  Your children likely feel they have to jump to appease and comply with your ex.  So when I wrote that your daughter could take advantage of the school's resources with a counselor I should have added that your daughter ought to do this without sharing this tidbit with her mother.  That's also why I was commenting on her learning needed boundaries.  Can she keep this confidential and not confess all to her mother so mother doesn't sabotage yet again?

I've heard school counselors do provide confidential sessions, else none of the kids would open up.  Others here may be able to chime in on that impression.

[Concerned_4_kids]

I feel I wasn't as clear as I'd hoped.  Your children likely feel they have to jump to appease and comply with your ex.  So when I wrote that your daughter could take advantage of the school's resources with a counselor I should have added that your daughter ought to do this without sharing this tidbit with her mother.  That's also why I was commenting on her learning needed boundaries.  Can she keep this confidential and not confess all to her mother so mother doesn't sabotage yet again?

I've heard school counselors do provide confidential sessions, else none of the kids would open up.  Others here may be able to chime in on that impression.

It's interesting what you say as it triggers some immediate (although questionable) negative responses from me. While I totally embrace the idea of boundaries and that they are our responsibility, in my experience those same boundaries excite BPD mom, who now has a firm understanding of the lines she now will cross. I don't know how common this is for BPD folks although I imagine this is common. She is relentless, leaving the room, or taking a walk only encourages her to come back again and again to beat the same dead horse until one goes mad.

Some sort of treatment her mom is unaware of would be ideal but I doubt in the state I'm in that would be offered. I also have avoided creating anything that the kids have to keep away from mom --- secrets --- I think would not end well and defeat the long game.

I'm increasingly thinking (and this conversation has furthered this thinking) that looking for opportunities, hopefully not targeted at their mom specifically is the best way to go.

[Notwendy]

I don't know how common this is for BPD folks although I imagine this is common. She is relentless, leaving the room, or taking a walk only encourages her to come back again and again to beat the same dead horse until one goes mad.

Some sort of treatment her mom is unaware of would be ideal but I doubt in the state I'm in that would be offered. I also have avoided creating anything that the kids have to keep away from mom --- secrets --- I think would not end well and defeat the long game.

My BPD mother is relentless with boundaries. It's like she sees them as a challenge. In addition, she has the upper hand as the parent when it comes to children so it would be difficult for them to keep boundaries. It's unfortunate that your wife is destructive to counseling relationships.

[ForeverDad]

Her relentless sabotage could also be an indication of brinkmanship or an extinction burst, where she is trying to outlast your improved boundaries with the expectation you'll give up before she does, if she ever does.  As much as she keeps complaining and sabotaging, she of course prefers the prior life.

She hasn't changed by very much, but you have - you've improved and so have the kids with your better decisions and example.

[Concerned_4_kids]

Her relentless sabotage could also be an indication of brinkmanship or an extinction burst, where she is trying to outlast your improved boundaries with the expectation you'll give up before she does, if she ever does.  As much as she keeps complaining and sabotaging, she of course prefers the prior life.

She hasn't changed by very much, but you have - you've improved and so have the kids with your better decisions and example.

I appreciate your words. I wasn't familiar with those terms so I will look them up but from my sense of it, you sound largely right. "Relentless" is certainly the word. Even 2 full years since our separation (and 7 months after the divorce decree) she continues to hound me daily. Just yesterday I had 2 conversations (one with a relative and another with a friend and work associate) who received disturbing and threatening messages from her.

It is a struggle to put aside someone who continues to try to mess with my head, looking to get at me and the people around me. Thankfully I have been able to keep the kid's best interest close to my heart, knowing they need one stable parent.

[PeteWitsend]

My D's therapist warned me that it's typical to see a big change occur around 2 years post divorce decree.  Keep an eye out for that.

The constant harassing may go down, but there will be continuous issues due to your kids.

[livednlearned]

My son's therapists (he had two) met him more where he was at, which was peer issues. Often these peer issues were parallel to things he was experiencing with n/BPDx.

A handful of things together seemed to help:

I began practicing what I think of as extreme validation. If I missed an opportunity or messed up and swept things under the rug, I went back to repair and recover.

In elementary and middle school, I went to the family specialist and guidance counselor to give them a heads up. This gave him a free pass to decompress in their offices if he needed. He was dealing with a lot of stress and they gave him permission to walk out of a classroom and walk things off if he needed, as long as he let someone know he needed it. The guidance counselor in middle school was amazing. Kids who were worried about being guilty by association were encouraged to fake-meet the nurse. They would go in her office and it connected to his office.

It's been a while since I read it but a lightbulb moment went off while reading Bill Eddy's Don't Alienate the Kids. It kind of taught me the essentials of being a good-enough parent when one parent has a PD. Flexible thinking, moderate behaviors, managed emotions. There was more, but those are the things I remember. Before that book I was wound so tight with anxiety and worry, and that stuff is contagious to a kid. I made it a point to model ways of de-stressing. My son still uses one of those techniques today (exhaling slowly as though into a straw).

Warshak's Divorce Poison helped me spot landmines planted by my ex and apply strategies to decommission each bomb. This will be specific to the ways your ex is abusing your kids. Mine loved a good gaslight. The bigger the lie the better. I also learned from Warshak (somewhere else) to use media like movies and books to get a point across. "Wow, the way that parent talked to that kid, amiright?"

My son didn't connect with the first therapist. I think because my ex was so overbearing and invasive (not a therapist, just controlling). He overshared things with my son and made him feel like therapy was a battleground and it felt too stressful so when he asked to stop, I agreed. In 8th grade he self-diagnosed himself with depression in health class. That's when the guidance counselor kicked into high gear. All of this happened under the radar.

By 9th grade, n/BPDx was largely out of the picture so therapy became more appealing.

I feel like what was more important than anything throughout all of this is letting my kid vent and being a sympathetic witness to his pain and suffering. That moment you describe with the two of you crying and hugging is more therapeutic than an aggrieved therapist.

I guess what I'm saying is don't discount your own influence, especially since you are an expert on how BPD presents in your ex. We have to parent in sometimes extreme ways.

My ex had a psychotic episode one night. I thought he was going to kill himself and our son, who was staying there that night. When we were working through that, I detected that S11 felt guilty. It came out that his dad had asked to borrow S11's baseball bat to beat me. A few hours later in bed, S11 played possum so his dad would stop ranting about me. When I heard all of this, I missed his POV. It didn't occur to me that he would feel like he betrayed me for not standing up for me. So I circled back and told him I was proud of him for the choices he made. He figured out on his own what was best for him in that moment. He was a kid, and it was his dad's job to keep him safe, but he did the opposite thing. So S11 had to be brave and courageous, and he did that all on his own.

BPD takes our families to the extreme and we have to go there to meet our kids where they are.