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Title: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: DC Daniel on December 07, 2010, 08:24:00 AM I know this may be a bit of a taboo subject, but did any of you notice strange behaviors? Looking back at our relationship, I was under the delusion that despite our problems we had a dynamic and almost porn star quality sex life... The sex seemed phenomenal, almost too good to be true... Like everything in life, I've come to conclude that nothing is ever truly too good to be true... Looking back, I now recall some strange behaviors that may have shattered the myth that I created about our "perfect" sex life... Here is a few examples:
The first time I noticed something was "off" with my ex involved sex... Around 3 months after our whirlwind relationship, we had a sex-a-thon. We probably had sex 5-6 times... That evening, at around 11PM I gave her manual stimulation... I was so exhausted though that I fell asleep in the middle of it lol ... When I woke up the next morning she was FURIOUS. She said how could you fall asleep on me, you obviously don't care about me... My initial reaction was to laugh... I said OMG I'm so sorry we had so much sex and I was tired... It was funny to me... Boy did that set her off... .She was furious and kept repeating "How would you like it if I did that to you?"" When I said I would laugh she turned blank and 3 day silent treatment commenced. She could never orgasm via sex, oral sex or even clitoral stimulation if I was the one doing it... I know some women have difficulty with this, but the reason why I bring this up is because when she did and I was helping her, she let out a near primal scream... It didn't seem like she was getting pleasure out of it... It was almost like pent up frustration getting expunged from her body... .She always had severe and nearly debilitation back problems (unexplained and undiagnosable)... But after he first orgasm with me she lied in bed, held me tight and said she could no longer feel her pain... As if the sex somehow took her pain away, if only for a short second... .Boy did I feel like a king / savior during those early moments... As we progressed, sex continued to be a focal point... While it seemed that we were connected there were things that in retrospect did not make much sense... She had never been with a man sexually yet seemed like a pro... She could manually stimulate me to completion faster than I could... Which is a miracle :) . I have been with my fair share of women, but couldn't comprehend how an amateur (I believed her and still believe she had an aversion to men / sex) could be so damn good... But the more I delve in to this, the more I realize that she must have been mimicking pornography... Everything from her moans to the look in here eyes looked eerily familiar to how porn stars act... In fact to this day I have difficulty watching women in porn because they have the same shallow eyes my exw had when she was in a BPD moment and I've heard those fake screams in real life... .Pretty crazy, huh? Another strange thing was kissing... I was her best kisser ever, yet on some days, while kissing her the same way I had always kissed her, she would get frustrated... She would say, "Why are you kissing me like that?" "Why are you moving your tongue like that?"... I was doing what I normally did but she put me on the spot... I had no idea how to react to that... If I was tired after a long day of work and didn't feel like have immediate sex, she would say, "I always have sex when you want it, even when I don't feel like it"... That too dumbfounded me as she always seemed like she greatly enjoyed sex with me and looked forward to it... Anyone experience similar things? Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: FoolishOne on December 07, 2010, 09:16:37 AM DC Daniel:
I know exactly what you are referring too... .in fact, sadly it has been the sex that's kept me in this rdiciulous relationship. I can't even imagine saying that... .but my pwBPDw is a freaking rock star in bed... .however... .all of the research that I am finding indicates that it isn't real. It is their way of keeping their hooks in you... .you are their lifeline and they know exactly what it takes to keep you. It's actually kinda scary. I remember before we were married, when we would break up (always my choosing)... .she would immediately latech on to another guy. This would be so incredibly painful to me. I mean, just how special was our sex life if she would jump into bed with someone else in less than two week's time? (Maybe even less than that). Before her, I was a secure, confident guy that had his share of women... .so I was not a desperate schmuck that had never been laid. She comes along and rocks my world... .BPD women have a knack of knowing how to please their men... .she was and is a true artist. In fact, back when we were first dating, she cheated on me with an international airline pilot... .she ended up marrying him (for a very brief time)... .but during the time they were together, she started smoking (because he was a smoker)... .I think that is a classic example of what BPD women will do to make themselves attractive to their mate... .they will give their self and their loved ones in order to "survive". Twice she left her son with her ex-husband to go off to Australia to be with this guy for three weeks at a time. This is the "devoted" mother that was so in to her kids. Dude, all I can tell you is this... .the sex... .that is all it is and all it will ever be for me. I am at a crossroads (as I've said a million times)... .I need to break free and reach escape velocity. I know I will be infinitely more happy without her and the constant craziness. I have yet to read the book "Walking on Eggshells"... .but the title alone already hits home. The two things that will prevent me (and possibly you), from cutting the cord is 1) the incredible sex 2) the thought of her being with another man (men). That is my only real challenge at this point. I am afraid the second isue may be greater than the first for me. I can go without sex... .I did in my previous marraige... .but those thoughts that haunt me of her being as sexual with someone else as she was with me just won't go away... .I definitely need help with that. And lastly... .I don't want to cast dispursions on your SO, but typically they are sexual creatures (as mentioned, that 's how they secure their target)... .so they stories she is telling you are being somewhat "inexperienced" would be highly doubted if I were you. Good luck my friend... .I hope you reach escape velocity. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: fogbound on December 07, 2010, 09:24:46 AM I really hate this thread because it hits home so hard and is so painful. They really knew where to hold onto us.
Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: DC Daniel on December 07, 2010, 09:29:42 AM DC Daniel: I know exactly what you are referring too... .in fact, sadly it has been the sex that's kept me in this rdiciulous relationship. I can't even imagine saying that... .but my pwBPDw is a freaking rock star in bed... .however... .all of the research that I am finding indicates that it isn't real. It is their way of keeping their hooks in you... .you are their lifeline and they know exactly what it takes to keep you. It's actually kinda scary. I remember before we were married, when we would break up (always my choosing)... .she would immediately latech on to another guy. This would be so incredibly painful to me. I mean, just how special was our sex life if she would jump into bed with someone else in less than two week's time? (Maybe even less than that). Before her, I was a secure, confident guy that had his share of women... .so I was not a desperate schmuck that had never been laid. She comes along and rocks my world... .BPD women have a knack of knowing how to please their men... .she was and is a true artist. In fact, back when we were first dating, she cheated on me with an international airline pilot... .she ended up marrying him (for a very brief time)... .but during the time they were together, she started smoking (because he was a smoker)... .I think that is a classic example of what BPD women will do to make themselves attractive to their mate... .they will give their self and their loved ones in order to "survive". Twice she left her son with her ex-husband to go off to Australia to be with this guy for three weeks at a time. This is the "devoted" mother that was so in to her kids. Dude, all I can tell you is this... .the sex... .that is all it is and all it will ever be for me. I am at a crossroads (as I've said a million times)... .I need to break free and reach escape velocity. I know I will be infinitely more happy without her and the constant craziness. I have yet to read the book "Walking on Eggshells"... .but the title alone already hits home. The two things that will prevent me (and possibly you), from cutting the cord is 1) the incredible sex 2) the thought of her being with another man (men). That is my only real challenge at this point. I am afraid the second isue may be greater than the first for me. I can go without sex... .I did in my previous marraige... .but those thoughts that haunt me of her being as sexual with someone else as she was with me just won't go away... .I definitely need help with that. And lastly... .I don't want to cast dispursions on your SO, but typically they are sexual creatures (as mentioned, that 's how they secure their target)... .so they stories she is telling you are being somewhat "inexperienced" would be highly doubted if I were you. Good luck my friend... .I hope you reach escape velocity. Thanks... Is it weird that I can't call you by your name? You certainly aren't Foolish... .We all make mistakes in life, and when facing a master manipulator in survival mode, a good percentage of the population would probably succumb to their deceit and lies... Now you would be Foolish if you picked another BPD the next round lol lol Back to the original point- My escape velocity was reached 15 months ago, and I've been divorced for nearly a year with no contact for the past 8 months... I will never endure another minute of her insanity... .I've been dating this incredibly sweet woman for the past 6 months and while the sex isn't "pornstar" a strange part of me actually enjoys the fact that she is open about her sexual insecurities and generally shy about sex... .It's nice to actually date a human being after being exposed to a vampire... .Perhaps one day the sex will elevate to greatness, perhaps it won't... .But in the grand scheme of things, it no longer matters to me. I'd rather be happy with a healthy partner than on a roller coaster ride. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Empowered on December 07, 2010, 09:35:57 AM Well, I can say that from the beginning with my BPDh there were definitely signs of dysfunctions issues surrounding masturbation and also a lot of hang ups about sleeping in the same bed afterward as well. Over time some of these issues quieted and yet other forms of dysfunction arose. The sex in the beginning was incredible but over time has just become something to serve only his need of feeling like we had a relationship. I have completely stopped having sex with him for the past 5 months even though we still live together simply because it seemed like each time right after we were intimate within about 24 hours sometimes less he would be back raging at me and beating me down. And not having sex is a huge trigger for him as a matter of fact yesterday he went on a rampage and destroyed sex toys that he had purchased for us several years ago and called me every name in book as if I were cheating on him with the toys... .well needles to say I am having loads of fun and finally had to call 911 on him after he threatened to stick a knife in me as far as it would go. Finally calmed him down.
Towards the end of our physical relationship I began to realize that it was a game filled with push and pull behaviors. He would complain that we didn't have sex enough, then if I tried to have sex with him he would blow me off, then he would come to bed and not even touch me and yet the next day would complain that I didn't have sex with him. Really became a bizarre roller coaster ride that I finally had to get off of. It was way too much emotionally to deal with. Anyway, I guess the one thing that I noticed since not engaging him sexually is that is all our relationship has been reduced to. After 14 yrs of marriage and 16 years together, I have realized and told him that the only thing that he is fixated on is my vagina and honestly if that is all I am for him then let him go to a bar and find a new one. Sad but true, unfortunately. :)on't know if anyone else has noticed this but I would be interested to know. x Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: fogbound on December 07, 2010, 09:48:25 AM FoolishOne
One thing I wanted to add that helps me a little which you may have already thought about. The next victim may have the time of his life with the pornstar sex but it going to come at a very very high price. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Lydia on December 07, 2010, 10:02:15 AM My experiences seem to differ from yours a bit, but my ex is NPD, so it's not that surprizing to me. Everything he did, in the beginning was about him. He wasn't interested in pleasing me and was not an experienced lover. He seemed to have the attitude of someone who was accustomed to paying for what he wanted in bed. I even asked him once if he'd been paying the woman he had as a lover for two years before me because I just couldn't get why she would have continued to sleep with him otherwise. I performed oral sex for two years without reciprication before I finally told him that if he didn't want to have oral sex that was going to be a two-way street. It was a moment of clarity for me because with other things I'd request (honesty, communication, or whatever) he acted like he couldn't get the message, but when it came to him not getting what he wanted sexually unless he was willing to consider my needs, he learned real quick.
This creeped me out and if anyone knows what it might mean I'd love to know. The last time we had sex was after he had spent a weekend away. I didn't know it then, but he had spent some time with another woman over the weekend. He claims it wasn't sexual and that may be true. But, he came over after his trip and when I reached over to kiss him, he said, "You can kiss me if you want to, I don't mind." It was like being with a kid who was playing doctor or something. I was taken so off guard. I just said, "What." To which he replied, "Oh, I never have." It was like he realized it was me he was with. And then, instead of our usual practice of forplay, he did something he hasn't done in a long time, which was use spit for lubrication. I felt like I was with someone new or someone who thought they were with someone besides me. So, my ex was not a good lover when we first met, but by the end of our relationship he knew exactly how to please me and we had a healthy sex life. He had told me that he had expected his ex wife to do things she didn't want to do and he felt bad about that. He didn't go there with me, but I think he knew I wasn't going to allow him to be disrespectful. He did want to have sex a lot and once gave me the silent treatment for refusing to have sex with him. I was too sick to eat and we had had sex twice the night before so there wasn't any game being played on my part. It hurt me so much that he expected me to put his sexual needs above my physical needs. Anyway, he was ruthless in his treatment of me the next morning. Thanks for bringing this up. It's helped me to look at the situation realistically instead of glorifying that which wasn't all that great. Oh, one more thing. My ex seemed to feel more present after sex, but seemed to need more than want it. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: grimalkin on December 07, 2010, 10:35:41 AM My ex was extremely attentive in bed and it was another case of "porn star sex", but also very emotional sex. I do think he was trying every second to make me feel good, but it was extremely validating to him when he could do that, he would feel loved and it would turn him on more. There were times, though, when I could tell it was that validation that was the primary driving force, and those were times when it felt more mechanical. During those times I could tell he was having trouble concentrating on his own pleasure. This might have been why your ex had trouble with orgasms when she was with you. She might have been distracted by all the other stuff she was or should be doing to pleasure you.
As an aside, sex CAN actually make pain go away, because of all the endorphins that are released at orgasm. So she may have actually meant it when she said that. As far as her getting upset when she felt you were inattentive or disinterested, she may just have been embarrassed and vulnerable, and keep in mind how hyper emotional BPs are in general. What would be disappointing and maybe a smidge embarrassing to us is utter humiliation to a BP, so her lashing out would make more sense. She may have felt rejected, and unappreciated for the amount of time and effort she put into making sex perfect for you. With the screaming, it seems indeed possible that she may have actually been releasing pent up emotion, as you suspected, or she could have played it up a little to make you feel good, thus receiving validation from you. Being good in bed seems to be an extremely common point of validation for BPs and sexual performance is something they master that is a HUGE part of how they handle their disorder-- if they're good then they feel loved and safe because you're less likely to leave. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: JJay on December 07, 2010, 11:10:26 AM This is interesting. Although my relationship was in secret (read my story), the sex experience is one of things why she's still in my head and keeped me hooked. For some reason there was not much foreplay (is this common?) the sex itself was something I didn't experienced ever before. She was so wild and knew exactly what I wanted. And then thinking about the way she looked at me and the things she said when she was pleasing me (pornstar, anyone?). She found out I had a weak spot (neck biting) and she did this over and over again. She was also scratching her nails everywhere. Just a wild animal and wherever it was possible she tried to give me a hard one, even in public. Most of the times just teasing and playing to make me crazy. She started something and stopped. If I said like: "So, and now? Are gonna finish it?", she said (with an evil laugh): "Maybe, but it's your problem. Not mine.". Just hit_y things if you ask me, but I kinda liked it and if she did finish it I was in heaven for a while (I must admit she was the best 'till now). I hate her the way she treated me and I'm done with her, but these experiences are in my head all the time and I'm thinking about back quite much. That's what's making me crazy and I sometimes hate why BPD was in the way... .
BTW, I found out she liked to be kinky (also BDSM and stuff) and wanted to be in control. She talked and fantasized about it really alot. Is this also common? I did read something about machochism and sadism, but I'm not sure if it's really related to BPD. Luckily I have never been nailed to a wooden cross or something (LOL). Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: grimalkin on December 07, 2010, 11:44:29 AM BTW, I found out she liked to be kinky (also BDSM and stuff) and wanted to be in control. She talked and fantasized about it really alot. Is this also common? I did read something about machochism and sadism, but I'm not sure if it's really related to BPD. Luckily I have never been nailed to a wooden cross or something (LOL). My ex was into roleplay and light BDSM. Power exchange was a huge turn on for him (and for me, too)-- he was usually the top, but not always. Maybe it's the the extra danger that adds some excitement that a BP needs-- or maybe they have power issues because they felt powerless as children (and perhaps still feel that way as adults). Possibly both. Thinking on it it was likely both for my ex. Grim Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: wiscago on December 07, 2010, 12:15:06 PM Mine too was a rock star. Some of our worst fights were during or after sex ! Makes you really want to have sex huh ? We had the best sex life ever ! Then she wouls say the oposite after awhile it was like get away from me go find somebody else and she did . She was the most selfish person I have ever been to bed with. Damn the sex was good though :) Like every habit ... .I had to give that up too though. Reward, was not woth the torment !
Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: CVA on December 07, 2010, 02:32:13 PM DC,
i read your post and immediatly had to reply, i have not read any others post under yours as for i just needed to tell ya. YES i experienced the same thing, wholly crap... She was supposedly a virgin. 29 yrs old, i was her 4th man in her life ever, she was a church girl and well everything seemed ok until it came to sex... . Looking back, when we first dated, the few weeks us hanging out it was golden,, we hung out in crowds, we kept doors open and i never pushed or impressed and sexual advances on her... UNtil I had to leave to go to the east coast for work,, i was going to be gone for a mnth, well that night,, she said she had to use the bathroom and well went in there and then called me to come in,, i was like hmmmmmmmm... maybe we were going to make out ,, well,, not to get to raw,... .she performed the most amazing oral sex ever on me, i mean over porn star quality,, and i was in shock,, there was nothing leading up to it, it was just drop ad shop... I was taken back and at the time not complaining,, but, hell it just did not add up at all,, i ahd to leave the next morning and all the while when i was gone i could not help but want to talk about what just happpend and to the intensity in happend... well, fast forward, she said she was just good at it,, i was like ya right, how did that hapen,, it only got worse and the behavior got more out of control like u said, porn star, demands, shock and awe, and she thought it was cute... I have had my share of woman, and some not so proud of , but they did not even act like this, while i was gone she broke up with me,, cuz i asked to many questions. Fast forward again... .we got married,, and we never had intercourse before marriega... .once we had intercourse, thats when all hell broke loose and all the BPD symptoms showed up... and 6 weeks later she abandoned me... but while she was gone, she would send me videos she took with her phone , and have bizzare sexual requests and say crap over the phone, like wanting threesomes and such,, again, this was all wierd to me,, i like you asked her if she was mimicking porn or watched porn before. as she would make noises. and act like she was having sex with other me, while talking to me on the phone, dirty talk and all,, i was mezmerized, as i was married before and was in the military and had to be gone from my wife for mnts at a time,, but it took time to get to this place and it was not so intense... . so,, sexual behavior being strange,, Hell yes... .it did not fit her facade or innocent girl act she was puttung on... . I do think it was a way of keeping me hooked and her acting out and doing what she thought i would like or to keep me under control... our sex seemed cold and detachd,, and she could not have a orgasm neither, she would tell me how to give her oral pleasure,, and i was like what the heck... .how would she know,, and like hell for a woman to claim she never was active,, just breathing on it would had drove her nuts... but all the control issues during sex was mind boggling,, and i often wonderd why it was so detached and like a act. i think its a control tactic, and another way to control us males, and a dirty little trick,, all the while showering us with validation and such, to make us think we are in the honeymoon stage and to get us to think they feel the same as we do,, and that its mutual... .but i dnt think so anymore, it control control control. this is a good topic... . Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: 3rdID on December 07, 2010, 03:31:25 PM The two things that will prevent me (and possibly you), from cutting the cord is 1) the incredible sex 2) the thought of her being with another man (men). That is my only real challenge at this point. I am afraid the second isue may be greater than the first for me. I can go without sex... .I did in my previous marraige... .but those thoughts that haunt me of her being as sexual with someone else as she was with me just won't go away... .I definitely need help with that. My problems exactly. Good sex. As for going without, I can just take care of that and visualize one of the many escapades I had with W. It is a horrible feeling of helplessness wondering about another guy being or coming into the picture. I envision her marching in with some new guy to one of my sons HS athletic events. I think I could be capable of violence if she parades some dude around me. If the dude is stupid enough to allow it he should be beaten anyway. Shes capable of it. Id never bring another women around my kids. Just wouldnt do that to them. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: angry hurt on December 07, 2010, 03:36:02 PM I thought the sex was great . But now 8 month on nearly I think it was more to do with the adrenaline rush and the BPD having us on a high. It now seams weird rather than great. When making love shed always get into bed with her underwear and bra on. we'd start the same sides of the bed and I'd have to undress her. For once why cudnt she just jump into bed naked ? Is this weird ? We'd have alot of drunken sex and she once passed me the camera to take pictures. I'm in a relationship with a sweet normal human being now. And the sex is great . Fingers crossed for this one .
Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Fubar on December 07, 2010, 03:43:03 PM Dammit!
Why couldn't my uBPDw have this behavior? I got all the misery, and none of the perks. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: 3rdID on December 07, 2010, 05:43:21 PM We'd have alot of drunken sex and she once passed me the camera to take pictures. Do normal women do this too? :) :) Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: grimalkin on December 07, 2010, 05:44:06 PM We'd have alot of drunken sex and she once passed me the camera to take pictures. Do normal women do this too? :) :) Yeah, we do. Grim Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: 3rdID on December 07, 2010, 06:03:41 PM We'd have alot of drunken sex and she once passed me the camera to take pictures. Do normal women do this too? :) :) Yeah, we do. Grim Maybe there is hope after all. :) Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Lydia on December 07, 2010, 06:23:07 PM I think normal people entertain all sorts of passions. The difference is, we do it because we want to. We're in it for pleasure and excitement and connection. We can feel a wide range of emotion and are able to be raunchy and loveable. We release endorphins and feel good about what we're doing. Disordered people seem to need to manipulate and will perform. Because they're mostly performing, they're not really 'in' and seem to do things beyond their control. Maybe this is why, even though most of us claim to have great sex lives, they dip in other pools. Of course there's always an element of play between couples, but it hasn't been my experience to feel regret or remorse for mutually consentual sexual acts. I have the ability to discern what I will and will not do. If something doesn't sit right with me, I just don't do it. I can appreciate the difference between being spontaneous and acting on impulse. I can weigh the possible consequences and control myself. And, I never think it's fair to withhold sex as a punishment or to punish (or take personally) the needs of my partner. Of course, being female, I doubt I've experienced sexual rejection like some men say they do.
Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: rich5a on December 07, 2010, 07:55:43 PM I agree, the sex had me. It was incredible lovemaking, porn star quality. For me though I chalked it up to my intense feelings for her (love). I would breathe her in, taste her, smell her... it was very intense and passionate I have never experienced that before. It was raw and animalistic. The way we feverishly clawed at each other only further convinced me that it was right. But I was soon to learn that lovemaking had little impact on her. I would shed tears while making love because I was so caught up for her... Her eyes would glaze over and she would tell me my tears were lies only so I could f--- her for free.
I could swear there were times while making love when her walls would come down and her eyes would change and i could see her vulnerability. It was beautiful moments like that when, further still I believed we made a deeper connection. Thinking back... who knows? Maybe it was all a charade and I was only seeing what I so deeply wanted to believe. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: BillP on December 07, 2010, 08:47:54 PM My ex had/has seriously disturbing sexual behavior. It stems from what her dad did to her. At first, I thought it was some kind of role playing that she was doing. But wow! And to be perfectly honest, she wasn't all that good. I've had a few T's tell me, this is not uncommon for some women with this illness. They give of themselves sexually quite easily, but they have never had the chance to develop sexually as a woman. So they just submit, and do things that are most familiar to them. Quite bleepin' distrubing!
She is such a mess! Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: CVA on December 07, 2010, 09:34:56 PM i like whay Lydia had to say,
that most normal woman, will do things to experiment and to feel a connecton with their partner, to build intimacy and hope to mutually satisfy each other,, bUt not BPD>. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: man34 on December 08, 2010, 01:06:18 AM mine had some series sexual issues... .her boundaries kept on expanding... .she was big into phone and cybersex... .her biggest wish was that if we can have sex infront of her husband... .him watching us in anger... .she would always fantasize that... .wanted to do public and group sex... first i thought she was kidding... .but later realized she was dead series... .
Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Undertowed on December 08, 2010, 03:30:20 AM ... .It's nice to actually date a human being after being exposed to a vampire... .Perhaps one day the sex will elevate to greatness, perhaps it won't... .But in the grand scheme of things, it no longer matters to me. I'd rather be happy with a healthy partner than on a roller coaster ride. At first I laughed at that line until I remembered the show True Blood. It's about vampires in society and the humans get all tangled up with these cold blooded 'fangers' partly because the sex is off the chain! You hit on something really deep. Anywho, I have to admit the first BPD or NPD type of guy I fell for had the best technique I'd ever experienced. I met him through a co-worker in Vegas. His friend had good things to say about him so I took a chance. He gave the full court press and came to visit. I'm soo not kidding when I say, even with his erratic behavior and crazy temper I nearly suggested we get MARRIED because of the crazy-sick sex! Who does that? I was nearly a character in the Hangover! I mean he did things with his body that seemed impossible! He could even WRITE pornographically! He sent me texts that would keep me riveted to the point where I didn't even want to look at another guy. I hate to admit it but after I bounced him out of my life I still kept the letters and marvel at his sheer unadulterated raunchiness! Excuse me, I need to go to rehab. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Undertowed on December 08, 2010, 04:04:34 AM I have the ability to discern what I will and will not do. If something doesn't sit right with me, I just don't do it. I can appreciate the difference between being spontaneous and acting on impulse. I can weigh the possible consequences and control myself. And, I never think it's fair to withhold sex as a punishment or to punish (or take personally) the needs of my partner. Of course, being female, I doubt I've experienced sexual rejection like some men say they do. I don't know if it's typical but I did find that one BPD guy I dated was somewhat pushy about what he wanted me to do. He loved exhibitionism and he pushed and pushed for it but I was too vanilla for his tastes. Unfortunately, I have experienced sexual rejection. My ex about a month in had a conversation with me and accused me of being addicted to sex with him. After that he delighted in holding back any physical contact and said I was pretending to be goody goody but he knew what I liked. I thought he was joking but he was actually serious. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Lydia on December 08, 2010, 06:55:17 AM I agree, the sex had me. It was incredible lovemaking, porn star quality. For me though I chalked it up to my intense feelings for her (love). I would breathe her in, taste her, smell her... it was very intense and passionate I have never experienced that before. It was raw and animalistic. The way we feverishly clawed at each other only further convinced me that it was right. But I was soon to learn that lovemaking had little impact on her. I would shed tears while making love because I was so caught up for her... Her eyes would glaze over and she would tell me my tears were lies only so I could f--- her for free. I could swear there were times while making love when her walls would come down and her eyes would change and i could see her vulnerability. It was beautiful moments like that when, further still I believed we made a deeper connection. Thinking back... who knows? Maybe it was all a charade and I was only seeing what I so deeply wanted to believe. I don't think they're faking this intensity that's shown through their eyes while making love. I saw my ex's eyes change, too. What I believe was going on with him at those moments was he was actually present. I think it took strong emotion to get his attention; to bring him home to himself, if you will. There were tender moments afterward, too. The sad thing is I was able to feel that connected outside of the sexual arena. I've been brought to moments of sheer joy that had nothing to do with sex, and I can't recall him ever doing so. Most of the time his eyes were sort of blank and darty. Other people have commented to me that he never looked them in the eye. Others have said there energy field goes up when he's around. My ex even told me that he felt 'connected' after spending some time with me. At first I thought it meant he felt connected to me, but I later started wondering if it didn't make him feel connected to himself. He had a problem with object constancy. He told me that his therapist had recommended he carry a photo of me. He didn't seem to care that much about talking to me unless he knew he was going to see me. If we had a date, he would always pick up his phone, but if we weren't going to see each other and he felt I just wanted to talk, he didn't. That seemed so odd to me too. I figured if we couldn't see each other, we could talk, but it wasn't that way for him. Many people who've been sexually abused confuse sex and love. They will try to win approval by performing sexually. They don't know any other way to feel loved. I did this for years myself. I kept chasing men who were emotionally unavailable and trying to get them to 'stay.' Part of my plan included sexual performance. I learned early on the power a woman can have over a man. Now, I wasn't aware of the dynamic until I had some therapy and realized it was all tied in with being sexually abused and abandoned by my parents. Also, I didn't learn about physical boundaries, so before treatment I was more of an anything goes girl. I recieved very little pleasure from sex. Orgasm wasn't the goal, connection wasn't the goal either. The excitement was from the power. Sort of like 'see, I can make you love me.' So, what's the difference between me and my ex? I was able (thankfully) to come to terms with what had happened to me. I was willing to do the necessary work to understand why I kept recycling through the dynamic of emotionally unavailable partners. I came to understand that it wasn't fair to seduce someone in order to have power over them (manipulation). I cared about how my actions led me down paths where I didn't have any sort of true connection. I wanted something deeper for myself. I was able to release the shame associated with sexual abuse. My ex's shame shattered him. My knowledge of his shattering and shame kept me roped in. I understood what he was feeling because I had experienced it too. He still isn't able to even comprehend his damage. He needed to hide behind my past. It helped him feel superior. You know, like the drunk who hangs out with the guy under the bridge because 'he's worse off.' Doing this helps the other person come to terms with their own pain. My ex's chaos kept me from looking at my own pain, too. My ex slept with his father until he was a teenager. He'd never told anyone about this practice before me and when he did tell me he made it a point to say, without being asked, "But it wasn't sexual." But when he tried to pretend that he wasn't damaged in our first session by not talking about any of this while I sat there and said exactly what my deal was, it made me angry. We looked like a classic example of good boy meets girl from the wrong side of the tracks. I confronted him and he had no choice but to fess up at the next session. When the therapist asked him, "So, everyone in your family knew what was happening?" He got angry and said, "They knew." To my knowledge, that's as far as he's gotten with this. I wanted to scream, "They knew what?" If he can ever get to that core issue, he may have a chance of healing from it and, like us, begin to chip away at the iceburg of shame and abandonment and guilt and remorse that caused him to stay at the cognitive level of a toddler. I doubt he will though. He's gone back to a young, troubled woman who he can focus on her issues instead of his own. Her consequences (she's in early recovery from drug/alcohol) will keep him busy for a while. He needs that crazy life and sexual attention to survive. If he looked square in the eyes of his pain it would shatter him more. Or so he thinks. This is another element that kept me roped in. I kept thinking if I could do it, so could he. I wasn't very understanding that some people cannot do this kind of work and some people don't want to. Once I accepted that, for now, he wants and or needs to remain where he is, and that I want and need to experience further healing, another one of the ties that bind were broken. Sorry for the ramble, but these posts always make me think :) Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: ArtistGuy70 on December 08, 2010, 07:12:09 AM My ex loved role play. Except it was not play to her. She wanted to be my submissive and slave. And I accept my responsibility here as well. I loved being her "Master." What I thought was fun and cool, she saw it as something deeper. I was the parent who rewarded and punished her as I saw fit (or when she wanted it).
Besides that, she loved anything dangerous: public sex, playing in a car, outside, sex in a club, sex with a transgendered guy once, a threesome, etc. Her masturbation practices puzzled me. She would do it just to get off, even while watching the news or TV... .just for the release. And some things she liked bothered me as well: she liked being choked sometimes, slapped in the face, spit on, degraded, showed off her bruises like they were battle scars (proud of them). She went beyond what I could enjoy sexually but just wanted to do anything for her. Wanted to be whatever she needed me to be as well. I loved her and was addicted to her. Dammit. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: peacelily1 on December 08, 2010, 07:21:08 AM I would also like to contribute to this. In the three years I was with my exBPDbf our sex life was great to begin with but soon ended up being perfunctory and bland. Why? Because I knew there was no real love expressed by him and I couldn't raise my enthusiasm. I ended up feeling like a service. I may as well have been an oven or washing machine! He started to do some very strange moves towards the end as if he was reverting back to an inexperienced teenager. I also found lots of his dead mother's old nighties and make up under the bed once. He used to pass sex off as I quote, "Just another form of communication." What? Where is the love and connection in that statement? As time went on I shut down completely. I felt guilty having dreams about being truly loved but I now realise my inner self needed more respect and nourishment so I left him.
Compared to the lovely boyfriends I've had before, this man wasn't able to show any real affection or care, especially in bed. It left me feeling cold. It's just as well I have a healthy perspective on sex and how it should be, thanks to previous boyfriends. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: fogbound on December 08, 2010, 07:32:30 AM I was so consumed with her and her raw sexual horsepower that I wanted to physically eat her. I mean cut her into pieces so I could have her inside me. I told her that many times. That kind if intensity is near impossible to walk away from.
Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: ArtistGuy70 on December 08, 2010, 07:45:12 AM I was so consumed with her and her raw sexual horsepower that I wanted to physically eat her. I mean cut her into pieces so I could have her inside me. I told her that many times. That kind if intensity is near impossible to walk away from. I hear you. I was totally immersed. I wanted to have every part of her body. I was on that pedestal and she was on one too. She was perfect to me. After all the years of her complaining that her ex called her fat, made her feel unattractive... .after her criticizing herself and every flaw she saw... .after never feeling sexy and desired on a permanent basis... .here I was loving her and telling her every day how sexy and beautiful she was. I thought, why would she ever leave me? I am her ego booster. I am the guy who is loyal to her... .indulge every fantasy she has. Devour her in bed. I used to want to do it multiple times. She would say something is wrong with me. How could she leave that? Easy. Nothing is ever enough. I don't mean sexually. I mean emotionally. No one can ever fill that emotional gap. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Lydia on December 08, 2010, 07:46:37 AM I was so consumed with her and her raw sexual horsepower that I wanted to physically eat her. I mean cut her into pieces so I could have her inside me. I told her that many times. That kind if intensity is near impossible to walk away from. Sometimes I wonder if we don't recognize that we are the passion creators in these relationships. Yes, the attachment is intense, but could it be that we actually are a bigger part of what makes it powerful and we've assigned that to them. Your comment made me think of this because I'm wondering if you're aware that the kind of person who can feel this deeply is you. Not her. Yes, she had technique that turned you on and was raw and animalistic, but your intense desire to injest her is a reflection of how capable you are of feeling. I doubt she felt the same way. Maybe we give these people too much credit? Maybe it is us that have crazy passion ability? I know I do. I'm passionate about everything I do. Well, I was before this anyway and I'm struggling to get back to that. I just think I was always the one who 'felt' while he was the one who performed. So, I think I can have the same intensity with another partner once I heal. Why not? Why can't I connect in that same physical level with someone who's able to connect emotionally and spiritually, too? Then it would be even more powerful and we could actually build a responsible life together that included joy and little chaos. I left because I want something more. Yes, I feel stuck right now, but that doesn't have to become a life-long pattern. I can have it all. I mean really most people are sexual beings. :)epending on their willingness to explore and not feel shame, the rest is just technique. I think being with someone who's less troubled will be good. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: eman01 on December 08, 2010, 08:01:18 AM I agree. I think they mirror our own passion back to us. They reflect our own sexual intensity back to us and we give them credit for it.
Excerpt Sometimes I wonder if we don't recognize that we are the passion creators in these relationships. Yes, the attachment is intense, but could it be that we actually are a bigger part of what makes it powerful and we've assigned that to them. Your comment made me think of this because I'm wondering if you're aware that the kind of person who can feel this deeply is you. Not her. Yes, she had technique that turned you on and was raw and animalistic, but your intense desire to injest her is a reflection of how capable you are of feeling. I doubt she felt the same way. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: sunrise2010 on December 08, 2010, 08:11:10 AM Lydia, you say "Sometimes I wonder if we don't recognize that we are the passion creators in these relationships. Yes, the attachment is intense, but could it be that we actually are a bigger part of what makes it powerful and we've assigned that to them."
This is also the result of projection. Before understanding the whole thing, we think we are what we are and feel what we feel because of them. Once we break the mirror and stop thinking we = they, we realize that what we feel belongs to us, only to us. My T told me "break the mirror!". And she was right. It took me time to understand this. It takes time, the grief work takes time, but this time will be well spent only when we really start the grief work, which is accepting the loss. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Chitowngal on December 08, 2010, 08:23:04 AM Our sex life was amazing. Best I've ever experienced. Weirdest thing: he never would make one... .single... .sound during it. I found that soo odd. He blamed it on being from a big family, but he's a 43 year old man! He would be absolutely silent, even when he was climaxing. I am personally not like that, at all... .so I found it soo weird. And yet, every... .single... .time between us, I not only would orgasm myself... .but we would together. At the same time. Every time. Which just made me wonder if he was faking it ever... .cuz WHAT normal couple has that kind of synchronicity? Please. He claimed he never faked it... .and I find it weird when guys do, (cuz they totally do), but yeah... .it was silently intense, and simultaneous orgasms... .EVERY time we've ever had sex.
Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Fubar on December 08, 2010, 08:49:29 AM How does a guy fake orgasm?
I don't think I'm unusual in that there's rather direct evidence of the event, and the lack of evidence would be rather hard to explain. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Lydia on December 08, 2010, 08:51:11 AM Lydia, you say "Sometimes I wonder if we don't recognize that we are the passion creators in these relationships. Yes, the attachment is intense, but could it be that we actually are a bigger part of what makes it powerful and we've assigned that to them." This is also the result of projection. Before understanding the whole thing, we think we are what we are and feel what we feel because of them. Once we break the mirror and stop thinking we = they, we realize that what we feel belongs to us, only to us. My T told me "break the mirror!". And she was right. It took me time to understand this. It takes time, the grief work takes time, but this time will be well spent only when we really start the grief work, which is accepting the loss. I agree. Please say more about the we = they thing. I read another post where you talked about this, but I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying I've projected my stuff onto him. You know what scares me? The more I read and learn about this disorder, the more confused I get about who really had the problem. The only difference, once it's all shook out, seems to be that he lacked empathy, was impulsive to the point of causing grave problems, couldn't be honest, and could not regulate his emotions, but I used to think abandonment was his issue not mine (not true), that he was insecure (so was I), that he projected (isn't that what you're saying we do?). I do see where even shred issues were a bigger deal to him and I get that the relationship helped me see mine, but once I started to become aware of how many issues I had, it helped me to forgive him, but has also left me with this idea that I am not quite as healthy as I thought I was. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Lydia on December 08, 2010, 08:54:06 AM How does a guy fake orgasm? I don't think I'm unusual in that there's rather direct evidence of the event, and the lack of evidence would be rather hard to explain. Yeah. How does a man pull that off? But, I get the no noise thing. Have you ever seen that movie with Michelle Phieffer (sp) and Sylvester Salone. There's a great scene in there where she helps him unlease his primal yell. Too funny. But, on a more serious note, my ex wasn't in touch with himself enough to feel free. Even when he cried, once, I had to ask him if he was laughing or crying. He was really out of touch with his feelings. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Fubar on December 08, 2010, 09:02:16 AM Lydia, you say "Sometimes I wonder if we don't recognize that we are the passion creators in these relationships. Yes, the attachment is intense, but could it be that we actually are a bigger part of what makes it powerful and we've assigned that to them." This is also the result of projection. Before understanding the whole thing, we think we are what we are and feel what we feel because of them. Once we break the mirror and stop thinking we = they, we realize that what we feel belongs to us, only to us. My T told me "break the mirror!". And she was right. It took me time to understand this. It takes time, the grief work takes time, but this time will be well spent only when we really start the grief work, which is accepting the loss. I agree. Please say more about the we = they thing. I read another post where you talked about this, but I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying I've projected my stuff onto him. You know what scares me? The more I read and learn about this disorder, the more confused I get about who really had the problem. The only difference, once it's all shook out, seems to be that he lacked empathy, was impulsive to the point of causing grave problems, couldn't be honest, and could not regulate his emotions, but I used to think abandonment was his issue not mine (not true), that he was insecure (so was I), that he projected (isn't that what you're saying we do?). I do see where even shred issues were a bigger deal to him and I get that the relationship helped me see mine, but once I started to become aware of how many issues I had, it helped me to forgive him, but has also left me with this idea that I am not quite as healthy as I thought I was. I think the difference is that (from what I'm seeing here, at least) "we" are able to question our own behavior and are willing to look in the mirror. In my case, denial was a big piece of my life. But when my behavior started spiraling out of control, I had self awareness enough to seek help and accept it. As much as I loathed the idea that I might suffer from an addiction, I took my counselor's advice and explored SAA. "We" are capable of looking in the mirror. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: grimalkin on December 08, 2010, 09:02:44 AM Part of my plan included sexual performance. I learned early on the power a woman can have over a man. Now, I wasn't aware of the dynamic until I had some therapy and realized it was all tied in with being sexually abused and abandoned by my parents. Also, I didn't learn about physical boundaries, so before treatment I was more of an anything goes girl. I recieved very little pleasure from sex. Orgasm wasn't the goal, connection wasn't the goal either. The excitement was from the power. Sort of like 'see, I can make you love me.' I went through that, too. In fact the first time I was able to both connect emotionally and receive pleasure was with my evBPbf. He was so emotionally intense and was so into pleasing me that I didn't need or want to remain distant, nor would I have been able too, actually. Pretty sad overall, since I was 37 when we got together. It's killing me that I had to lose that when I broke up with him. Now I'm not sure I'll ever be able to reach that place again. Probably not. At least I know what it feels like now so I can set it as a goal. It was nice to let go and actually enjoy sex. I had been with several guys before him and none of them seemed to know intuitively what to do like he did, even though he had only been with half as many women. He seemed to use the same trick I did, simply imagining what it must be like to have the body parts of the opposite sex. Simple, but extremely effective. He told me I was by far the best he ever had. I don't know how to feel about this. At the time it was a huge complement, as I knew he meant it. Now it just makes me so sad to lose the connection. He would actually either giggle or cry after sex if it was particularly emotionally intense. I loved that. Grim Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Chitowngal on December 08, 2010, 09:31:18 AM I know, I know... .how can a guy fake an orgasm... .well... .okay... .I'll try to be a non graphic as possible, (my exBPDbf had a vasectoemy), and yes "evidence" still occured... .but we didn't need to use anything for birth control... .when it's like that... .and you THINK he's climaxed... .and yes, the woman usually has some clean up to do afterwards, but sometimes, it can be hot enough for her that it's difficult to tell what is "her" and what is "him"... .in the aftermath.
make any sense? (yeah, I tried really hard not to be too gross there). Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Lydia on December 08, 2010, 09:47:38 AM Part of my plan included sexual performance. I learned early on the power a woman can have over a man. Now, I wasn't aware of the dynamic until I had some therapy and realized it was all tied in with being sexually abused and abandoned by my parents. Also, I didn't learn about physical boundaries, so before treatment I was more of an anything goes girl. I recieved very little pleasure from sex. Orgasm wasn't the goal, connection wasn't the goal either. The excitement was from the power. Sort of like 'see, I can make you love me.' I went through that, too. In fact the first time I was able to both connect emotionally and receive pleasure was with my evBPbf. He was so emotionally intense and was so into pleasing me that I didn't need or want to remain distant, nor would I have been able too, actually. Pretty sad overall, since I was 37 when we got together. It's killing me that I had to lose that when I broke up with him. Now I'm not sure I'll ever be able to reach that place again. Probably not. At least I know what it feels like now so I can set it as a goal. It was nice to let go and actually enjoy sex. I had been with several guys before him and none of them seemed to know intuitively what to do like he did, even though he had only been with half as many women. He seemed to use the same trick I did, simply imagining what it must be like to have the body parts of the opposite sex. Simple, but extremely effective. He told me I was by far the best he ever had. I don't know how to feel about this. At the time it was a huge complement, as I knew he meant it. Now it just makes me so sad to lose the connection. He would actually either giggle or cry after sex if it was particularly emotionally intense. I loved that. Grim Let's not forget that part of what we're talking about here has nothing to do with BPD or us, but is a natural progression of sexual developement for women. I talked about this with a therapist who assured me that 'mature' women just naturally gravitate towards owing their own sexuality and they become aware of what pleases them and how to achieve that pleasure. That's why young men like older women. I think we can all have great experiences with a normal person. I have to believe that 'cause I'm not willing to settle in this department just like I'm not willing to take crazy every other day in order to have great sex. Let's all pretend we know we can have something better and see if there's any validity to the laws of attraction. ha. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: DC Daniel on December 08, 2010, 09:52:55 AM Lydia, you say "Sometimes I wonder if we don't recognize that we are the passion creators in these relationships. Yes, the attachment is intense, but could it be that we actually are a bigger part of what makes it powerful and we've assigned that to them." This is also the result of projection. Before understanding the whole thing, we think we are what we are and feel what we feel because of them. Once we break the mirror and stop thinking we = they, we realize that what we feel belongs to us, only to us. My T told me "break the mirror!". And she was right. It took me time to understand this. It takes time, the grief work takes time, but this time will be well spent only when we really start the grief work, which is accepting the loss. Excellent, excellent post... This is so true... And goes way behind sex... I'll give you an example... My sister was badly injured and paralyzed when I was 17... For many years after I convinced myself that as long as my sister suffered I could never truly be happy... When I met my ex and we started the most intense relationship of my life, I felt that she had shattered that sense that I had developed. I had finally found someone that made happy, in fact happier than ever before... Fast forward 4 years later during my divorce... I mentioned this "fact" to my therapist... .And it took a short while, but after some reflection i realized that the happiness I felt came from me! That the exhilaration, dedication, pursuit of her, invigoration, all these things were not because of her... They were simply qualities awakened within me that were either dormant or I didn't know existed... At the end of the day I can only be grateful of the experience because it helped me understand MYSELF better... Thanks for that post... It really makes sense. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: grimalkin on December 08, 2010, 09:55:36 AM Part of my plan included sexual performance. I learned early on the power a woman can have over a man. Now, I wasn't aware of the dynamic until I had some therapy and realized it was all tied in with being sexually abused and abandoned by my parents. Also, I didn't learn about physical boundaries, so before treatment I was more of an anything goes girl. I recieved very little pleasure from sex. Orgasm wasn't the goal, connection wasn't the goal either. The excitement was from the power. Sort of like 'see, I can make you love me.' I went through that, too. In fact the first time I was able to both connect emotionally and receive pleasure was with my evBPbf. He was so emotionally intense and was so into pleasing me that I didn't need or want to remain distant, nor would I have been able too, actually. Pretty sad overall, since I was 37 when we got together. It's killing me that I had to lose that when I broke up with him. Now I'm not sure I'll ever be able to reach that place again. Probably not. At least I know what it feels like now so I can set it as a goal. It was nice to let go and actually enjoy sex. I had been with several guys before him and none of them seemed to know intuitively what to do like he did, even though he had only been with half as many women. He seemed to use the same trick I did, simply imagining what it must be like to have the body parts of the opposite sex. Simple, but extremely effective. He told me I was by far the best he ever had. I don't know how to feel about this. At the time it was a huge complement, as I knew he meant it. Now it just makes me so sad to lose the connection. He would actually either giggle or cry after sex if it was particularly emotionally intense. I loved that. Grim Let's not forget that part of what we're talking about here has nothing to do with BPD or us, but is a natural progression of sexual developement for women. I talked about this with a therapist who assured me that 'mature' women just naturally gravitate towards owing their own sexuality and they become aware of what pleases them and how to achieve that pleasure. That's why young men like older women. I think we can all have great experiences with a normal person. I have to believe that 'cause I'm not willing to settle in this department just like I'm not willing to take crazy every other day in order to have great sex. Let's all pretend we know we can have something better and see if there's any validity to the laws of attraction. ha. Just a high bar to set for me personally, especially since he was the first one to pull it off. I have to ask, then-- why would an older guy want to be with young women, when young women don't enjoy sex as much or even know what they like? I guess it's the allure of inexperience-- they'll take what you give them and won't question. That came out cattier than I meant it to be. I AM disturbed by it, now that I'm no longer in my 20s. I guess I can always go find me a younger guy who'll appreciate my talents Grim Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Lydia on December 08, 2010, 10:27:09 AM Part of my plan included sexual performance. I learned early on the power a woman can have over a man. Now, I wasn't aware of the dynamic until I had some therapy and realized it was all tied in with being sexually abused and abandoned by my parents. Also, I didn't learn about physical boundaries, so before treatment I was more of an anything goes girl. I recieved very little pleasure from sex. Orgasm wasn't the goal, connection wasn't the goal either. The excitement was from the power. Sort of like 'see, I can make you love me.' I went through that, too. In fact the first time I was able to both connect emotionally and receive pleasure was with my evBPbf. He was so emotionally intense and was so into pleasing me that I didn't need or want to remain distant, nor would I have been able too, actually. Pretty sad overall, since I was 37 when we got together. It's killing me that I had to lose that when I broke up with him. Now I'm not sure I'll ever be able to reach that place again. Probably not. At least I know what it feels like now so I can set it as a goal. It was nice to let go and actually enjoy sex. I had been with several guys before him and none of them seemed to know intuitively what to do like he did, even though he had only been with half as many women. He seemed to use the same trick I did, simply imagining what it must be like to have the body parts of the opposite sex. Simple, but extremely effective. He told me I was by far the best he ever had. I don't know how to feel about this. At the time it was a huge complement, as I knew he meant it. Now it just makes me so sad to lose the connection. He would actually either giggle or cry after sex if it was particularly emotionally intense. I loved that. Grim Let's not forget that part of what we're talking about here has nothing to do with BPD or us, but is a natural progression of sexual developement for women. I talked about this with a therapist who assured me that 'mature' women just naturally gravitate towards owing their own sexuality and they become aware of what pleases them and how to achieve that pleasure. That's why young men like older women. I think we can all have great experiences with a normal person. I have to believe that 'cause I'm not willing to settle in this department just like I'm not willing to take crazy every other day in order to have great sex. Let's all pretend we know we can have something better and see if there's any validity to the laws of attraction. ha. Just a high bar to set for me personally, especially since he was the first one to pull it off. I have to ask, then-- why would an older guy want to be with young women, when young women don't enjoy sex as much or even know what they like? I guess it's the allure of inexperience-- they'll take what you give them and won't question. That came out cattier than I meant it to be. I AM disturbed by it, now that I'm no longer in my 20s. I guess I can always go find me a younger guy who'll appreciate my talents Grim Because younger women are typically considered more beautiful, easier to control, and boost the ego of an older man. If you check out the guys who need the 'trophy wife' you'll find that most of them are very insecure. They need to attach themselves to someone younger to prove they can. And, as hard as it is to admit, the bodies of the youthful are prettier. Just as some women prefer men with large genetalia, some men crave the genetalia of a very young girl. There's probably some who are a little twisted in the childhood department, too. Just look at the costumes sold for Halloween. Most, for the women, are of girly stuff or other professions that can be dominated: waitresses, school girls, teachers. Some men like the good-girl gone bad and with a young girl they don't have to ask for role play, they have it. I don't know how helpful it is for a woman's self-esteem to compare or consider all of this. I'm inclined to think about what I want. Now, there's some revelation stuff to consider. Just as men want good girl gone bad. I've wanted bad-boy, and that's what I've had thus far. It no longer works for me, so now I need to see if I can be attracted to a normal guy. I'm now turned off by guys with the bad boy image. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: sunrise2010 on December 08, 2010, 10:36:49 AM Lydia, you say "Sometimes I wonder if we don't recognize that we are the passion creators in these relationships. Yes, the attachment is intense, but could it be that we actually are a bigger part of what makes it powerful and we've assigned that to them." This is also the result of projection. Before understanding the whole thing, we think we are what we are and feel what we feel because of them. Once we break the mirror and stop thinking we = they, we realize that what we feel belongs to us, only to us. My T told me "break the mirror!". And she was right. It took me time to understand this. It takes time, the grief work takes time, but this time will be well spent only when we really start the grief work, which is accepting the loss. I agree. Please say more about the we = they thing. I read another post where you talked about this, but I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying I've projected my stuff onto him. You know what scares me? The more I read and learn about this disorder, the more confused I get about who really had the problem. The only difference, once it's all shook out, seems to be that he lacked empathy, was impulsive to the point of causing grave problems, couldn't be honest, and could not regulate his emotions, but I used to think abandonment was his issue not mine (not true), that he was insecure (so was I), that he projected (isn't that what you're saying we do?). I do see where even shred issues were a bigger deal to him and I get that the relationship helped me see mine, but once I started to become aware of how many issues I had, it helped me to forgive him, but has also left me with this idea that I am not quite as healthy as I thought I was. Lydia, I’ll tell you my experience. I’m not a psychologist, each one of us is different and has different issues and each person diagnosed with BPD is different. What I can do is tell you about me and T and you can think how it sounds to you. Yes, he projected him onto me and I projected me onto him too. I felt his ancient pain was mine and he felt my ancient pain was his. That’s how the double projection was possible. This is the starting point. Clearly, I didn’t understand this when it happened. And maybe, even if our childhood was different, and his family was a family made of monsters and mine not at that degree, we really share some inner pain, even if I’m not BPD and I didn’t deal with my ancient pain the way he did and does. This also implies like I wrote in another post a symbiotic r/s in which each of us tries to heal the ancient wounds. I was sure I found the ancient needs met and didn't want to lose him because it would mean lose myself – because of the projection. The same with my passions etc. whatever I felt during the r/s. I thought it was possible because of him, because I projected my good onto him. But that’s not true. It’s only projection. I couldn’t leave him for many reasons: because he was also a good object which made me feel soo good, because leaving him would make me feel guilty for not taking care of him – which means not taking care of myself when I was a child. It’s all about projection, and once I understood this I understood so much on the dynamics of the r/s. A r/s with a dBPD is so dangerous for the projection. I became enmashed, wasn't able to find my real self after I broke off. And it took me a long time to have it back, to "break the mirror" and feel "one" again also without him. You say “but once I started to become aware of how many issues I had, it helped me to forgive him, but has also left me with this idea that I am not quite as healthy as I thought I was.” Well, maybe, if you think this way, you might have ancient issues that the r/s with a person with BPD awoken you: this is not being healthy or unhealthy, this might mean have some pain hidden somewhere, which I think is very different. BPD is BPD, a severe mental disorder. Never forget this. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: grimalkin on December 08, 2010, 10:46:22 AM Because younger women are typically considered more beautiful, easier to control, and boost the ego of an older man. If you check out the guys who need the 'trophy wife' you'll find that most of them are very insecure. They need to attach themselves to someone younger to prove they can. And, as hard as it is to admit, the bodies of the youthful are prettier. Just as some women prefer men with large genetalia, some men crave the genetalia of a very young girl. There's probably some who are a little twisted in the childhood department, too. Just look at the costumes sold for Halloween. Most, for the women, are of girly stuff or other professions that can be dominated: waitresses, school girls, teachers. Some men like the good-girl gone bad and with a young girl they don't have to ask for role play, they have it. I don't know how helpful it is for a woman's self-esteem to compare or consider all of this. I'm inclined to think about what I want. Now, there's some revelation stuff to consider. Just as men want good girl gone bad. I've wanted bad-boy, and that's what I've had thus far. It no longer works for me, so now I need to see if I can be attracted to a normal guy. I'm now turned off by guys with the bad boy image. Yeah, I knew that younger bodies are considered more attractive. Younger women are also less likely to have had many sexual partners and have a longer fertility period than more mature women. There is a lot going on biologically that men aren't even aware of consciously. Just like more mature women like younger guys because of their higher sex drive and vitality-- this means more sex and better likelihood of pregnancy and healthier children. Even if a woman doesn't think about these things consciously, it's there biologically. There is something just plain sexy about a younger partner for a lot of people, and men and women both have their respective reasons why. Kinda sucks that young women are the ideal while older men get let off much easier in the looks department. Of course I find younger men more attractive generally-- I think most women do, but it's not really an issue for men what they look like at all, compared to how important it is that a woman look young. As far as the bad boy image, there is a theory as to why bad boys are considered so enticing as compared to dependable types, and it all comes down to the vitality of the offspring. Strong, tenacious, reckless men make for strong, tenacious offspring. Again it all comes down to procreation. It has been posited that that's a large portion of why why some women have rape fantasies. Again, strong man, strong offspring. It's not like we think about this stuff, we just WANT it. Grim Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: grimalkin on December 08, 2010, 10:51:33 AM Do you think we can ever recapture that passion with someone non BPed? I hate to think of all the time I spent in bed before I met my BPbf and all the bad sex I had, just because that was all that was offered. Now I'm spoiled, unfortunately.
Do you think it's possible we all learned how to be better in bed ourselves, just from the experience of being with a BP? Maybe we can pass that along to our new partners. I personally have no idea how to tell a guy what I want without making him feel like he doesn't know what he's doing. Men seem very sensitive about that. Grim Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: BillP on December 08, 2010, 11:00:31 AM Do you think it's possible we all learned how to be better in bed ourselves, just from the experience of being with a BP? Maybe we can pass that along to our new partners. I personally have no idea how to tell a guy what I want without making him feel like he doesn't know what he's doing. Men seem very sensitive about that.
I personally will not use the sexual experience with my ex in any future relationships. I consider myself a very passionate person, especially with the knowledge I have earned over these last few months. Besides, I like it when a woman tels/shows me what she likes/wants. I would like to have more of what I believe is a more "normal" sexual relationship with my next relationship. As opposed to the seriously disfunctional one I have gone through. Man, I can't believe I did those things with the ex. What an idiot I was. But never again! Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Fubar on December 08, 2010, 11:02:31 AM Do you think we can ever recapture that passion with someone non BPed? I hate to think of all the time I spent in bed before I met my BPbf and all the bad sex I had, just because that was all that was offered. Now I'm spoiled, unfortunately. Do you think it's possible we all learned how to be better in bed ourselves, just from the experience of being with a BP? Maybe we can pass that along to our new partners. I personally have no idea how to tell a guy what I want without making him feel like he doesn't know what he's doing. Men seem very sensitive about that. Grim I, at least, would welcome interaction with someone who has a clue about what they want. But I'm coming from a relationship with zero experience prior to marriage, and very little during. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: grimalkin on December 08, 2010, 11:05:36 AM Well the responses are good to hear-- it's good to know some men out there like a woman who is sexually proactive.
Grim Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: FoolishOne on December 08, 2010, 11:24:00 AM Yes... .of course we men want a woman to tell us what she likes/wants. That's the problem with a relationship with a pwBPD... .they are sexually uninhibited to a certain degree because it is all part of the dance. They hook you in any way they know how... .and if sex if your thing, then they will become an artist in the bedroom... .My BPDw knows how to get me off better than I could myself! Someone so dedicated to being your perfect mate, will do whatever it takes... .at great lengths, to make you commit to them and not abandon them. If it were real it would be the most amazing love story ever told... .but the evidence is in (or at least at my house)... .it's not real... .it is a fantasy put forth only for my amusement. Long after the crazy sex in the bedroom is over, the craziness still exists in the kitchen, the dining room, the family room, the garage, etc... .they are tormented and can't help themselves... .
What killed me was that no matter how great I thought the sex was (and she says the same), they still have a strong likelihood of cheating. That is so crushing to me. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: grimalkin on December 08, 2010, 11:37:07 AM I personally will not use the sexual experience with my ex in any future relationships. I consider myself a very passionate person, especially with the knowledge I have earned over these last few months. Besides, I like it when a woman tels/shows me what she likes/wants. I would like to have more of what I believe is a more "normal" sexual relationship with my next relationship. As opposed to the seriously disfunctional one I have gone through. Man, I can't believe I did those things with the ex. What an idiot I was. But never again! I didn't mean specific sexual acts. I was referring to sexual energy in general. I know I became more passionate and more able to connect emotionally and enjoy sex in general while I was with my exBPbf. I was wondering if we as nons could carry over some of the positive things we had with our exBPSOs into our next relationships. Grim Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Fubar on December 08, 2010, 11:43:32 AM Frankly, a discussion like this makes me wonder about the accuracy of my diagnosis of my uBPDw.
She is EXACTLY the opposite of everything being described. She has, from day one, been what can only be described as frigid. Sexual rejection and physical and emotional barriers to intimacy were the standard in our sex life. She would become flirtatious and play at seduction when there was no likelihood of actual follow-through. She did become quite adventurous with me AFTER she felt my emotional distance increasing. But by then it was just a sad gesture in terms of resurrecting my passion. 28 years of rejection took its toll. Although that wasn't THE problem in our marriage, it was definitely A problem. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: sunrise2010 on December 08, 2010, 11:49:02 AM My 2 cents on sex, which was the thing I missed of my ex dBPD so much.
Some of us experienced the best sex of ever and ask themselves if it is possible to have it with someone else. What is good sex? Yes, there are some things we know we like in sex: the person – beautiful, how much beautiful? – the experience, etc. I know sex was an amazing experience with my ex, he was so beautiful and experienced. Ok, there are lots of men beautiful and experienced if this is still important for me. But this is not enough. After him I had sex with other men beautiful and experienced like him, but it was just sex, nothing more. So, ok there are other men in the world who are good enough. But I loved him, and that’s the difference, I loved him and making love with him was a way to share what we felt for each other. So, it’s not just a question of attributes, characteristics we look for having a satisfying sex or how much the other person is passionate. There’s something more: love. The last time I made love with my ex was a good sex, of course, but not so intense because I knew inside of me that it was over. So, it was satisfying but not so intimate like it was in the past. And sadly what I missed was that intimacy we couldn’t share anymore. Maybe some of us discovered the real pleasure with them, maybe some of us didn’t know what real pleasure was before the r/s – and I’m not talking only about sex, sex is only a way to feel pleasure in our lives. Maybe for some aspects they were the first we had some profound feelings for, and some of us are stuck on the conviction that only with them it is possible to feel that pleasure. Again, no if we don’t want to believe it is so. Maybe they were the first, maybe they were the only, but if so they were a gift which made us discover and experiment something which now belongs to us. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: BillP on December 08, 2010, 12:30:06 PM I didn't mean specific sexual acts. I was referring to sexual energy in general. I know I became more passionate and more able to connect emotionally and enjoy sex in general while I was with my exBPbf. I was wondering if we as nons could carry over some of the positive things we had with our exBPSOs into our next relationships.
Grim Well, this may sound egotistical, but here it goes. My sexual appetite seems have to grown quite a bit since I left the House of Horror. I'm 50lbs. lighter, and feel as though I have the energy of someone 20 yrs younger. I will not let this miserable experience ruin a beautiful healthy sexual relationship with the woman in my life. We both will benefit from this new reviltalized energy I have for sex. The ex, even at her best, was no match for my sexual desires. It seemed that after about 6 months, she looked upon it more a duty she had to preform. Again, I think this stems from what daddy did to her. She couoldn't hang with me then, and she sure as hell can't hang with me in the future. It's her loss. That's how I see it. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: pallavirajsinghani on December 08, 2010, 01:53:52 PM Do you think we can ever recapture that passion with someone non BPed? I hate to think of all the time I spent in bed before I met my BPbf and all the bad sex I had, just because that was all that was offered. Now I'm spoiled, unfortunately.
Yes. Take it from the one who is currently in such a relationship (non-married-non-2 nonkids). Porn star quality sex is not only possible, but happening right in the bedroom of your dorky married ordinary couple married umpteen years in a white house with a white picket fence. The difference is that here it happens from utter and total comfort where you can reveal yourself completely, even the animalistic visceral side of yourself and so does the other person... .with no negative repercussions. BTW, this is one of the dimensions of "Tantric Sex"---I am from the culture who creates temples devoted to erotica (temples, mind you, not whorehouses) and wrote the Kama Sutra. What changes the ordinary into extraordinary is our imagination. The power and the perception lies within us. Ahem Bhramasmi "I am God." ----------------------------------------------------------------- Let us, as a further exploration of my comment, consider the semantics of the following words: Reality Illusion Magic 1) Reality is the stuff of daily life. Making a living, cars, food, laundry, cleaning, brushing ones teeth... . i.e. a wooden puppet with strings 2) Illusion: The first date: when you do not see the extent of work that has gone behind wearing that simple dress--purchase the right dress from the right store, the right make up, wear the right body shaping camisole underneath. i.e. the wooden puppet dancing on the stage, the puppeteer out of sight, with stings disguised by the right color of the background curtain. We indulge in the willing suspension of disbelief and delight in the show. 3) Magic: Moments of transcendence, when the ordinary stands out in its complete glory, a sensation of perfection. i.e. a puppet with no strings, dancing on its own. ----------------------------------------------------- What brings on the transcendence? Is the power in the object or in the perceiver? A stone image, or the Cross or the Menorah... .does it have an intrinsic magical quality or is the power given by the perceiver? ---------------------------------------------------- Magical moments take an enormous amount of energy and imagination to produce. They are like all our brain synapses connected simultaneously. Repeated--they burn a person out. What you feel with the BPD sufferer is that intensity, that transcendence that a person craves. It can come from sex, from hugging your child, watching a brilliantly produced theatrical production, a great sunset... . It comes from a work of art... . BPD's produce and direct and you are willing participants in this grand opera of love and sex. When off the stage, the actors are just human. Like the adoring lover in Pope's poem discovered to his chargrin that "Celia! Celia! Celia! S@^%s!" 3) Moments of transcendence which occur when Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Undertowed on December 08, 2010, 03:10:06 PM My ex even told me that he felt 'connected' after spending some time with me. At first I thought it meant he felt connected to me, but I later started wondering if it didn't make him feel connected to himself. He had a problem with object constancy. He told me that his therapist had recommended he carry a photo of me. He didn't seem to care that much about talking to me unless he knew he was going to see me. If we had a date, he would always pick up his phone, but if we weren't going to see each other and he felt I just wanted to talk, he didn't. That seemed so odd to me too. I figured if we couldn't see each other, we could talk, but it wasn't that way for him. YESSSSS! That was the straw that broke the camel's back for me! I've been on the road working and I lived for phone calls from home. I would call him but he would let 2 weeks go by and still not call me. It started to annoy the crap out of me! In our last argument I said "if I'm going to be alone anyway why come off the road at all? Why pay to come back to town to be ignored?" Thanx for writing that Lydia! I don't feel like I'm in the frickin' Twilight Zone. I'm so hoping you're right pallavirajsinghani! Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: GreatDad on December 08, 2010, 03:21:19 PM I have read these posts with the hope of becoming aroused. That's how pathetic my life is. However, I am curious if any of the people who have posted here, currently/formerly in a relationship with someone who you suspect is disordered, have children with that person? The reason I ask is because I have a sneaking (and jealous) suspicion that all this great sex was before the first child was born. Please let me know. Thanks.
~GD Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Undertowed on December 08, 2010, 03:39:28 PM I wanna know too! You might have to start a new thread but yeah, I wanna know too! The two BPDs I dated wanted to get me pregnant within months of dating and I thought that was insane. At the very least it would complicate the crazy sex. My theory is that they really wanted to lock me down so they could stop worrying about abandonment. So with that in mind, I'd be surprised if they keep up the porno moves after they have you locked in with a kid.
Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: sunrise2010 on December 08, 2010, 04:02:48 PM I have read these posts with the hope of becoming aroused. That's how pathetic my life is. However, I am curious if any of the people who have posted here, currently/formerly in a relationship with someone who you suspect is disordered, have children with that person? The reason I ask is because I have a sneaking (and jealous) suspicion that all this great sex was before the first child was born. Please let me know. Thanks. ~GD No kids. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: bluelotus9 on December 08, 2010, 04:51:13 PM A very relevant topic. The sexual aspect was non-stop when I first met my exuBPDgf. Interestingly she hardly ever had orgasm, but it was very important to her that I did. She said to me on several occasions that men would f&^k anyone, which played into her very jealous nature, despite the fact I pointed out to her that males were not all the same! Generally she had a very negative attitude towards males.
If I was too tired, and didn't want sex, then she would get very upset and it would be a major blow to our relationship. True intimacy was always difficult with her since she was emotionally distancing, and as I tried to explain to her, we needed to spend more time actually sleeping together (once a week if I was lucky!), and eventually I accused her of just wanting a f**k buddy. Afterward she accused me of calling her a prostitute instead, but I never said that and she wouldn't believe me! This was a complete shock that she had blanked out what I really said. I still don't quite understand it, unless she felt guilty about her prior promiscuous behaviour, or maybe she'd been abused... .? Thoughts or similar experiences appreciated... . Blue Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: pallavirajsinghani on December 08, 2010, 06:50:53 PM The reason I ask is because I have a sneaking (and jealous) suspicion that all this great sex was before the first child was born. Please let me know. Thanks.
~GD My point exactly. Puppets dancing with no apparent strings = Magic. Incidentally what does it reveal about ourselves when we define the most satisfying sexual encounter as "porn star quality"---knowing fully well that the entire porn is acting. We hold a fake performance as the ultimate gold standard of purity. This is quite immature on our part isn't it? And yet; we the children; find the loved ones with BPD as "childlike". We know that porn is a fairy tale. It is a made up thing. And yet, we hold it to be an "ideal". This post is not a criticism, merely an attempt to understand ourselves, and to question as to what do the semantics we use show us to be. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: NHBeachBum on December 08, 2010, 06:55:52 PM Yes... .of course we men want a woman to tell us what she likes/wants. That's the problem with a relationship with a pwBPD... .they are sexually uninhibited to a certain degree because it is all part of the dance. They hook you in any way they know how... .and if sex if your thing, then they will become an artist in the bedroom... .My BPDw knows how to get me off better than I could myself! Someone so dedicated to being your perfect mate, will do whatever it takes... .at great lengths, to make you commit to them and not abandon them. If it were real it would be the most amazing love story ever told... .but the evidence is in (or at least at my house)... .it's not real... .it is a fantasy put forth only for my amusement. Long after the crazy sex in the bedroom is over, the craziness still exists in the kitchen, the dining room, the family room, the garage, etc... .they are tormented and can't help themselves... . What killed me was that no matter how great I thought the sex was (and she says the same), they still have a strong likelihood of cheating. That is so crushing to me. Yeah - that pretty much sums it up - my exBPDgf used sex as a way to control & manipulate me. That was her hook and her pattern of history. Use sex to control her "soul mate", manipulate them with lies, smoke & mirrors, then break up the relationship with the final phase being projection of all blame onto her "soul mate". Mean while, as you wrote, she has already been cheating, fishing for the next unsuspecting "soul mate". Seems to all revolve around crazy porn star sex to get the "soul mate" interested & hooked. 3+ hours of sex daily to hook me... .and she still cheated on me! Silly dumb-ass. lol. Don't be crushed FoolishOne. I was painful to learn the truth about my exBPDgf but it's not my fault she's a lying, cheating, abusive person. I didn't cause, no one can control it, so no need to get upset about it. I'm actually relieved that I don't have to be exposed to that drama/trauma anymore! As you wrote "they are tormented and can't help themselves"... .their issue not ours. -NHBB Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: grimalkin on December 08, 2010, 07:03:39 PM Incidentally what does it reveal about ourselves when we define the most satisfying sexual encounter as "porn star quality"---knowing fully well that the entire porn is acting. We hold a fake performance as the ultimate gold standard of purity. This is quite immature on our part isn't it? And yet; we the children; find the loved ones with BPD as "childlike". We know that porn is a fairy tale. It is a made up thing. And yet, we hold it to be an "ideal". This post is not a criticism, merely an attempt to understand ourselves, and to question as to what do the semantics we use show us to be. I don't know if I'd describe my experience as porn star quality. It was much too emotional for that. That's my problem. I guess I'd say the actual performance (no, I don't mean "acting" was "as good" as anything Ive seen in porn, but truthfully it was the combination of actual emotional connection, sensitivity and attentiveness that was so earth-shattering. That is why it's going to be hard to follow up. He was never fake during sex. That was the one time I could be sure everything was genuine and real. Grim Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Undertowed on December 08, 2010, 07:24:50 PM My point exactly. Puppets dancing with no apparent strings = Magic. Incidentally what does it reveal about ourselves when we define the most satisfying sexual encounter as "porn star quality"---knowing fully well that the entire porn is acting. We hold a fake performance as the ultimate gold standard of purity. This is quite immature on our part isn't it? And yet; we the children; find the loved ones with BPD as "childlike". We know that porn is a fairy tale. It is a made up thing. And yet, we hold it to be an "ideal". This post is not a criticism, merely an attempt to understand ourselves, and to question as to what do the semantics we use show us to be. I don't know that we're all defining these as the most satisfying because they are "porn star" quality. I can only speak for my encounters. They were like the difference between a mixed drink and a Long Island Iced Tea. The Iced Tea has so many shots in it that it is waaaay more potent than the average drink so you can't help but remember it. I'm defining it as the most intense and thorough encounter because we're talking hours of attention paid to every body part. That's actually far longer than any porn performance. Certainly, in my case, it was emotionally intimate but the problem was that he couldn't sustain that intimacy outside the bedroom. His feelings were all too real. Any guy who looked at me was a threat. Any idea that I might pull away required a drink and a pep talk to calm him. It was real but unbalanced and fleeting emotional involvement. It was sincere in the moment--that's the down side. I can understand if that's how you feel about your experience(s), though. I get that it's something you want to give some analysis and consideration. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: DC Daniel on December 08, 2010, 07:27:17 PM The reason I ask is because I have a sneaking (and jealous) suspicion that all this great sex was before the first child was born. Please let me know. Thanks. ~GD My point exactly. Puppets dancing with no apparent strings = Magic. Incidentally what does it reveal about ourselves when we define the most satisfying sexual encounter as "porn star quality"---knowing fully well that the entire porn is acting. We hold a fake performance as the ultimate gold standard of purity. This is quite immature on our part isn't it? And yet; we the children; find the loved ones with BPD as "childlike". We know that porn is a fairy tale. It is a made up thing. And yet, we hold it to be an "ideal". This post is not a criticism, merely an attempt to understand ourselves, and to question as to what do the semantics we use show us to be. Interesting points... My defenition of "porn star" is pop culture term to describe exhilarating, passionate, "connected" even animalistic sex... .Yet you do bring up some thought provoking ideas... .Society does put a lot of pressure around the issue of sex and monogamy. Semantics aside, as I described in my original post, I have a hard time watching porn now without feeling sorry for a lot of the women that exhibit similar behaviors that didn't seem so obvious to me when I was enmeshed with my exBPDW... . Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: grimalkin on December 08, 2010, 07:28:18 PM My point exactly. Puppets dancing with no apparent strings = Magic. Incidentally what does it reveal about ourselves when we define the most satisfying sexual encounter as "porn star quality"---knowing fully well that the entire porn is acting. We hold a fake performance as the ultimate gold standard of purity. This is quite immature on our part isn't it? And yet; we the children; find the loved ones with BPD as "childlike". We know that porn is a fairy tale. It is a made up thing. And yet, we hold it to be an "ideal". This post is not a criticism, merely an attempt to understand ourselves, and to question as to what do the semantics we use show us to be. I don't know that we're all defining these as the most satisfying because they are "porn star" quality. I can only speak for my encounters. They were like the difference between a mixed drink and a Long Island Iced Tea. The Iced Tea has so many shots in it that it is waaaay more potent than the average drink so you can't help but remember it. I'm defining it as the most intense and thorough encounter because we're talking hours of attention paid to every body part. That's actually far longer than any porn performance. Certainly, in my case, it was emotionally intimate but the problem was that he couldn't sustain that intimacy outside the bedroom. His feelings were all too real. Any guy who looked at me was a threat. Any idea that I might pull away required a drink and a pep talk to calm him. It was real but unbalanced and fleeting emotional involvement. It was sincere in the moment--that's the down side. YES. THANK YOU. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: greenlove on December 08, 2010, 07:46:28 PM What is porn star quality sex? I don't mean to be naive, but I've had great sex in relationships, and yes, one was an NPD sex addict, but I was in love with him. He really liked the sex and it was great, although in time sex became all about filling his need, and it got shorter and shorter, and well, maybe that's porn star quality? quick? I hated that part.
Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Undertowed on December 08, 2010, 07:47:46 PM The reason I ask is because I have a sneaking (and jealous) suspicion that all this great sex was before the first child was born. Please let me know. Thanks. ~GD My point exactly. Puppets dancing with no apparent strings = Magic. Incidentally what does it reveal about ourselves when we define the most satisfying sexual encounter as "porn star quality"---knowing fully well that the entire porn is acting. We hold a fake performance as the ultimate gold standard of purity. This is quite immature on our part isn't it? And yet; we the children; find the loved ones with BPD as "childlike". We know that porn is a fairy tale. It is a made up thing. And yet, we hold it to be an "ideal". This post is not a criticism, merely an attempt to understand ourselves, and to question as to what do the semantics we use show us to be. One more thing that just occurred to me. We're in a society that frowns on most physical interaction unlike other societies where men hug and kiss each other and hold hands and women can do the same, that level of sexual expression is remarkable. Here it's not cool to hug and kiss people you just meet or acquaintances. Many people are raised in families that don't hug or show affection and are starved. To have a mate pay attention to every last surface cell of your body and look into your eyes and talk to you asking what you want and DOING IT is amazing. That could be the BPD person's story, one of our stories, or both. Every person isn't the same so the encounters that others have had may have been less emotional and more mechanical but the sincere desire to touch another person as deeply as you can is real. Had my ex been as skilled at being in a relationship instead of vindictiveness, I wouldn't have had to kick his butt out. This is my long winded way of saying I don't agree that it's an all or nothing proposition. I don't agree that only performing well physically means there's no sincere and real and pure desire to connect and perform emotionally. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: rich5a on December 08, 2010, 09:00:34 PM I was so consumed with her and her raw sexual horsepower that I wanted to physically eat her. I mean cut her into pieces so I could have her inside me. I told her that many times. That kind if intensity is near impossible to walk away from. incredible>> I have told my xBPDso the exact same thing many, many times. I wanted to eat her... .literally bite into her, that and I wanted to open her up and crawl inside. Still its intoxicating. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: grimalkin on December 08, 2010, 09:07:19 PM I was so consumed with her and her raw sexual horsepower that I wanted to physically eat her. I mean cut her into pieces so I could have her inside me. I told her that many times. That kind if intensity is near impossible to walk away from. incredible>> I have told my xBPDso the exact same thing many, many times. I wanted to eat her... .literally bite into her, that and I wanted to open her up and crawl inside. Still its intoxicating. Yep. I heard the same thing from my ex. I didn't want to eat him, I just wanted to HAVE him-- all of him, all at once. Amounts to pretty much the same thing. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: rich5a on December 08, 2010, 09:14:33 PM I don't think they're faking this intensity that's shown through their eyes while making love. I saw my ex's eyes change, too. What I believe was going on with him at those moments was he was actually present. I think it took strong emotion to get his attention; to bring him home to himself, if you will. There were tender moments afterward, too. The sad thing is I was able to feel that connected outside of the sexual arena. I've been brought to moments of sheer joy that had nothing to do with sex, and I can't recall him ever doing so. Most of the time his eyes were sort of blank and darty. My ex even told me that he felt 'connected' after spending some time with me. At first I thought it meant he felt connected to me, but I later started wondering if it didn't make him feel connected to himself. He had a problem with object constancy. He told me that his therapist had recommended he carry a photo of me. He didn't seem to care that much about talking to me unless he knew he was going to see me. If we had a date, he would always pick up his phone, but if we weren't going to see each other and he felt I just wanted to talk, he didn't. That seemed so odd to me too. I figured if we couldn't see each other, we could talk, but it wasn't that way for him. Many people who've been sexually abused confuse sex and love. They will try to win approval by performing sexually. They don't know any other way to feel loved. I did this for years myself. I kept chasing men who were emotionally unavailable and trying to get them to 'stay.' Part of my plan included sexual performance. I learned early on the power a woman can have over a man. Now, I wasn't aware of the dynamic until I had some therapy and realized it was all tied in with being sexually abused and abandoned by my parents. Also, I didn't learn about physical boundaries, so before treatment I was more of an anything goes girl. I recieved very little pleasure from sex. Orgasm wasn't the goal, connection wasn't the goal either. The excitement was from the power. Sort of like 'see, I can make you love me.' So, what's the difference between me and my ex? I was able (thankfully) to come to terms with what had happened to me. I was willing to do the necessary work to understand why I kept recycling through the dynamic of emotionally unavailable partners. I came to understand that it wasn't fair to seduce someone in order to have power over them (manipulation). I cared about how my actions led me down paths where I didn't have any sort of true connection. I wanted something deeper for myself. I was able to release the shame associated with sexual abuse. My ex's shame shattered him. My knowledge of his shattering and shame kept me roped in. I understood what he was feeling because I had experienced it too. He still isn't able to even comprehend his damage. He needed to hide behind my past. It helped him feel superior. You know, like the drunk who hangs out with the guy under the bridge because 'he's worse off.' Doing this helps the other person come to terms with their own pain. My ex's chaos kept me from looking at my own pain, too. My ex slept with his father until he was a teenager. He'd never told anyone about this practice before me and when he did tell me he made it a point to say, without being asked, "But it wasn't sexual." But when he tried to pretend that he wasn't damaged in our first session by not talking about any of this while I sat there and said exactly what my deal was, it made me angry. We looked like a classic example of good boy meets girl from the wrong side of the tracks. I confronted him and he had no choice but to fess up at the next session. When the therapist asked him, "So, everyone in your family knew what was happening?" He got angry and said, "They knew." To my knowledge, that's as far as he's gotten with this. I wanted to scream, "They knew what?" If he can ever get to that core issue, he may have a chance of healing from it and, like us, begin to chip away at the iceburg of shame and abandonment and guilt and remorse that caused him to stay at the cognitive level of a toddler. I doubt he will though. He's gone back to a young, troubled woman who he can focus on her issues instead of his own. Her consequences (she's in early recovery from drug/alcohol) will keep him busy for a while. He needs that crazy life and sexual attention to survive. If he looked square in the eyes of his pain it would shatter him more. Or so he thinks. This is another element that kept me roped in. I kept thinking if I could do it, so could he. I wasn't very understanding that some people cannot do this kind of work and some people don't want to. Once I accepted that, for now, he wants and or needs to remain where he is, and that I want and need to experience further healing, another one of the ties that bind were broken. Sorry for the ramble, but these posts always make me think :) I would like to believe she was present... .and yes I was able to hold on to those moments outside of the bedroom, unlike her, which early on baffled me. Also I like your point on was she connecting with me or connecting with herself? Thank you for sharing so much Lydia... I too am a survivor of sexual abuse. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: needforhope on December 08, 2010, 09:25:51 PM I have come to the point of realizing that my uBPDxh was abusive sexually. He pressured me into doing many things I was not the least comfortable with and if I said no originally he would say okay but 5 minutes later would be pushing etc. Near the end of our relationship he was unable to perform and I was always to blame. I was never sexy enough, or willing enough, or drunk enough for his liking, and can't count the number of times I was told I was frigid. It became work to me. I know I completely disengaged emotionally and mentally. Even when he couldn't perform he would not stop (I know it is an ego thing) but it regularly went on for hours at a time (3 on average)... .so I am pretty sure that this can be considered strange sexual behavior.
Just writing this made me glad that I am free of that portion of the relationship and I can only hope that his girlfriend is suffering likewise (otherwise it becomes too easy to think that it might have )been my fault all along). p.s. Gave my phone number to a nice guy who I see regularly (he told me he had been looking for my at his place of business and thinking about me). That is something I have never done in my entire life. I hope he calls but the thought of dating someone and eventual sexual activity scares me to death. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Lydia on December 08, 2010, 10:29:10 PM Incidentally what does it reveal about ourselves when we define the most satisfying sexual encounter as "porn star quality"---knowing fully well that the entire porn is acting. We hold a fake performance as the ultimate gold standard of purity. This is quite immature on our part isn't it? And yet; we the children; find the loved ones with BPD as "childlike". We know that porn is a fairy tale. It is a made up thing. And yet, we hold it to be an "ideal". This post is not a criticism, merely an attempt to understand ourselves, and to question as to what do the semantics we use show us to be. I don't know if I'd describe my experience as porn star quality. It was much too emotional for that. That's my problem. I guess I'd say the actual performance (no, I don't mean "acting" was "as good" as anything Ive seen in porn, but truthfully it was the combination of actual emotional connection, sensitivity and attentiveness that was so earth-shattering. That is why it's going to be hard to follow up. He was never fake during sex. That was the one time I could be sure everything was genuine and real. Grim I agree with Grim. There wasn't anything porn star about our sex life. He was the one who was quite inhibited when we first me. Inhibited may not be the best word, really he was selfish. If anything, I think he was drawn to my sexual freedom and I liked to have sex and didn't have a problem telling him what I liked. There wasn't any porn, or agressive sexual acts between the two of us. What we had was an amazing connection. He was present during sex in a way that he wasn't otherwise. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Chipmunk on December 08, 2010, 11:45:45 PM WOW! I think mine was a sex addict. It didn't bother me because I had a healthy appetite too. The more he wanted the more I kept up with it. I started to believe he was challenging me sexually. In the earlier parts of our relationship our normal sessions were twice a day. First thing in the morning and at bedtime. On the weekends when we were both home it was 5-8 times a day. I was amazed a man had my appetite. But although we were having sex it was never quality sex. He did not know how to pay attention to a woman's body to know how to help her reach an orgasm. During the earlier part of our sex life I never orgasmed. I taught him how to apply his emotions with sex. He never understood what I meant by that. Once he started to do it then I orgasmed. But after I orgasmed he couldn't tell... .STRANGE!
The more I expressed that I loved the sex little by little he started to manipulate me with it. Soon he was no longer doing it. Soon it turned into he would rather please himself to porn rather than to have sex with me. I refused to allow this to bother me. I refused to feel rejected, therefore, I did not take it personal. I felt any man that was willing to turn down a woman that was laying in his bed to jerk off meant something was wrong with him and not me. Also, I felt he wasn't on my level sexually. I was deeply attracted to him... .and it was difficult to resist his almost pleasing sex. My ex was addicted to porn. He even performed like a porn star. I told him this one time in bed. He was always taking male enhancer pills. When I found out I flipped out. He would masturbate several times a day... .even at work. I later found out he was meeting women online. At first I didn't know if I was just dating an hit_ or someone with mental issues. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: brenbabe on December 09, 2010, 12:19:08 AM Lydia,
Mine was exactly like yours. I wonder what makes them one way or the other? I wonder if maybe BPD with NPD per say makes them different sexually as opposed to just having BPD. Maybe someone can elaborate on this issue? Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: Lydia on December 09, 2010, 03:01:18 AM Lydia, you say "Sometimes I wonder if we don't recognize that we are the passion creators in these relationships. Yes, the attachment is intense, but could it be that we actually are a bigger part of what makes it powerful and we've assigned that to them." This is also the result of projection. Before understanding the whole thing, we think we are what we are and feel what we feel because of them. Once we break the mirror and stop thinking we = they, we realize that what we feel belongs to us, only to us. My T told me "break the mirror!". And she was right. It took me time to understand this. It takes time, the grief work takes time, but this time will be well spent only when we really start the grief work, which is accepting the loss. I agree. Please say more about the we = they thing. I read another post where you talked about this, but I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying I've projected my stuff onto him. You know what scares me? The more I read and learn about this disorder, the more confused I get about who really had the problem. The only difference, once it's all shook out, seems to be that he lacked empathy, was impulsive to the point of causing grave problems, couldn't be honest, and could not regulate his emotions, but I used to think abandonment was his issue not mine (not true), that he was insecure (so was I), that he projected (isn't that what you're saying we do?). I do see where even shred issues were a bigger deal to him and I get that the relationship helped me see mine, but once I started to become aware of how many issues I had, it helped me to forgive him, but has also left me with this idea that I am not quite as healthy as I thought I was. Lydia, I’ll tell you my experience. I’m not a psychologist, each one of us is different and has different issues and each person diagnosed with BPD is different. What I can do is tell you about me and T and you can think how it sounds to you. Yes, he projected him onto me and I projected me onto him too. I felt his ancient pain was mine and he felt my ancient pain was his. That’s how the double projection was possible. This is the starting point. Clearly, I didn’t understand this when it happened. And maybe, even if our childhood was different, and his family was a family made of monsters and mine not at that degree, we really share some inner pain, even if I’m not BPD and I didn’t deal with my ancient pain the way he did and does. This also implies like I wrote in another post a symbiotic r/s in which each of us tries to heal the ancient wounds. I was sure I found the ancient needs met and didn't want to lose him because it would mean lose myself – because of the projection. The same with my passions etc. whatever I felt during the r/s. I thought it was possible because of him, because I projected my good onto him. But that’s not true. It’s only projection. I couldn’t leave him for many reasons: because he was also a good object which made me feel soo good, because leaving him would make me feel guilty for not taking care of him – which means not taking care of myself when I was a child. It’s all about projection, and once I understood this I understood so much on the dynamics of the r/s. A r/s with a dBPD is so dangerous for the projection. I became enmashed, wasn't able to find my real self after I broke off. And it took me a long time to have it back, to "break the mirror" and feel "one" again also without him. You say “but once I started to become aware of how many issues I had, it helped me to forgive him, but has also left me with this idea that I am not quite as healthy as I thought I was.” Well, maybe, if you think this way, you might have ancient issues that the r/s with a person with BPD awoken you: this is not being healthy or unhealthy, this might mean have some pain hidden somewhere, which I think is very different. BPD is BPD, a severe mental disorder. Never forget this. This is such a helpful post :) Yes, I was told by the first counselor we saw together that our relationship was one of healing. I didn't get it then, but fast-forward a few years, when my pain was so great and my denial was melting, and we entered therapy again with a different counselor and it all started making sense. I've been doing EMRD therapy and if you've ever done that you may know that the healing process is sped up a great deal. That's the up side of it, but the downside is you don't remember everything that happens at a subconscious level. What I do know is that my ex represented, to me, the dynamics I had as a child with my mother, father, and step-father. I kept trying to get him to stay in an attempt to heal the ancient wound of being abandoned by my dad, emotionally abused by my mother, and sexually abused by my step-father (who I don't like admitting my ex looked like). I've been doing the inner child work and have come to know that I wasn't nutured and I've had to learn to reparent and reintegrate that child into my adult self. I've learned when the 'little girl' in me is reacting to fear and abandonment and I've learned how to comfort her. Once I finished that work, I was exhausted, or so I thought it was exhaustion. My therapist told me it was healing. She said I've completed that task and am now empowered. I don't feel empowered all of the time, but I certainly don't neglect myself anymore :) Yes, my relationship absolutely brought me to a state of heightened awareness. I'm grateful for that. I know I still have a lot to learn, but given the hardest part of moving in a different direction is the initial move and I've made that, I feel much better about progressing to a state of better understanding. I'm so happy I don't have to go through those first several months again. That's part of the reason I'm here now. I want to try to offer hope to those who are just starting on this journey. It has been one of the most difficult times of my life and I haven't had a cookie-cutter version :) I still have some very bad moments, but I'm forever changed by this experience and, now that I'm on the other side of it a tiny bit, I can see it's benefits. Just last month I may have been too angry to say that. Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: 2010 on December 09, 2010, 06:16:05 AM Excerpt I wonder if maybe BPD with NPD per say makes them different sexually as opposed to just having BPD. NPD = Narcissists need to feel appreciated and seek out admirers, but do not let their partners get too close. They are afraid it will dilute their grandiosity. They use partners like show ponies to support their egos and then devalue and discard them when the partner doesn't respond as the narcissist wishes. Consequently, Narcissists consider themselves lone wolves on the prowl, even when they are with someone. They fear emotional intimacy and dont like people to get too close. Kissing and Sex is mechanical much like masturbation with a blow-up doll. Generally the act is choreographed and self serving to the Narcissist. When Borderlines and Narcissists meet in bed, the results are competitive and self serving to each other's needs. Narcissists love Borderlines because Borderlines perform for the Narcissists benefit. BPD with NPD false front. This is the conundrum for many therapists- as many Borderlines appear to be egotistical at first meeting. They may try to lead people to believe that they are pulled together big time- but upon closer inspection, the Borderline traits appear as needy and clinging. Behaviors do not lie. This person is a Borderline masquerading as a Narcissist. Sex will be used to cling. Narcissists do not cling- they subsume. Borderline. True Borderline behaviors during sex are masochistic. The disorder comes out in self perpetuating bondage. Sado/masochistic traits are what Borderline is all about. Punishing, punitive, controlling- these functions come out in sex play. The greatest clue to Borderline personality disorder is the need to be punished during sex. Male or Female Borderline- same difference. Excerpt Incidentally what does it reveal about ourselves when we define the most satisfying sexual encounter as "porn star quality"---knowing fully well that the entire porn is acting. We hold a fake performance as the ultimate gold standard of purity. This is quite immature on our part isn't it? And yet; we the children; find the loved ones with BPD as "childlike". We know that porn is a fairy tale. It is a made up thing. And yet, we hold it to be an "ideal". This is an important statement. The reward behaviors that Borderlines seek for valuation are in the reactions and responses of their partners. Ever wonder if you show Borderline traits? Ask yourself if you get your valuation from performing in bed. Then ask yourself if you need validation for it afterward. It's as though the Borderline seeks out an appreciative audience but the quality of reward that's received in this manner does not matter so much as quantity. It's compulsive. The sex act might be over, but not the talk. In a way, this is not a desire for sex- it is a need, but the neediness is much like a compulsive problem with prostitution as the answer. Prostituting themselves makes them feel bad- they want to be punished and shamed because that's the part time self that lives in their mind, so they return to compulsively try to fix the shame by doing it better and better, i.e, porn star style. It's never enough to feel better about themselves, to stop the neediness, and being treated like a prostitute only makes them eventually angry- so the Borderline avoids closure by moving on and seeking reward elsewhere. Borderlines continue to walk the streets of life searching for new opportunities to offer themselves up for protection and punishment. Remember, Borderline has two part time selves, good and bad. If good and bad arouse you- then we are talking S&M. A Borderline will expect it and submit to it for your approval. Many people hold out sex as the one activity where they could be themselves with the Borderline, but the reality of this is more sinister- you see, sex was where both of you held your reward systems intact in fantasy. Porn star sex can last 4 hours, but unfortunately, that leaves the reality of another 20 hours left in the day to cause anxiety. The Borderline pendulum swings away from you when you stop having sex. Do you see how this can be a problem? And if sex is used so successfully by the Borderline to attach to people- then certainly you're in trouble when your partner's perception of you is that you've withdrawn and have now moved away- (even if its just to the corner store for milk.) Borderlines are like empty buckets with holes in the bottom- you fill them up and nothing keeps. Everything drains out and the bucket needs filling again. They are aware of this neediness and punish themselves (self-harm = cutting, drinking, piercing, pinching, plucking, shopping, anxiety, insomnia etc.)- but most prefer that you work out their punishment in bed. That way they can get both reward and punishment at the same time. And yes, it's sad- especially if you thought it was manageable. Eventually you'll come to see that your own desires and needs were projected upon the Borderline and you'll find out what that projection was when you look back and see where the valuation begins. Did you want a submissive, or maybe a sex slave? Follow the reward. Then ask yourself why you thought that this person you projected upon would feel anything but punished and used for sex. Much like a prostitute. It's a disorder. It's not going away unless they stop compulsively doing the reward valuations. Unless they can replace it with something else, sex will be a huge motivator, especially for the partner. When you are disengaging from this dysfunctional dance- it's important to un-romanticize the sex and call it for what it was- manipulated fantasy :light: Title: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors? Post by: rl669 on December 09, 2010, 07:48:13 AM For me, we had incredible porn star sex also. I've never experienced anything like it. It was really exciting: anything went; it was wild and abandoned. No inhibitions; she knew instinctively what I liked, and she was really responsive and orgasmic: incredible. That was pre-kids. As soon as the kids came along, she was unable to reach orgasm, and has never been able to since, in seven years. We pretty much stopped having sex.
She went to the doc after some pressure from me, who told her he couldn't see anything amiss down there. He referred her to a gynecologist. Who said he couldn't find anything wrong. Six months later, she went to get a second opinion from another gynecologist. And guess what? He said there was nothing physically wrong either. Then, we found the top gynecologist specializing in sexual health. And he also said "there's nothing wrong with you". He actually prescribed viagra for her. Which she "lost" before she had a chance to try it. Anyway, she now avoids sex completely except when she thinks I'm ready to walk. So it's become a simple tool of manipulation. |