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Two weeks ago I was discarded and broken up with by my exBPD partner. I described that in other topics here. I am trying to make sense of it, but it comes down to her not managing symptoms of diagnosed BPD, but also of me being extremely co-dependent. I am starting to take full responsibility for my part of the disfunction. And while I still hope that she'd come to her senses, I am not chasing that, not writing to her, just taking my time, and trying to address my problems, as oposed to hers: co-dependency.

Even the wiki article on codependency describes me to a T, there is no question about it. And sometimes when enough abuse or mistreatment happened in my relationship with BPD, I'd become almost narcissistic. Somehow I cannot forgive myself for not being calmer, and level-headed.

But my question is: how do you work on this? How do fix this problem of lack of self, of severe codependency?

I used to work on this with my therapist, who asked me to care for my inner-child. To deeply analyse my family dynamic. And it does make rational sense. At least to my understanding, I am a deeply co-dependent person, with an extra of narcissistic FLEAS from my dad. The therapist gave me exercises in assertiveness and also warned me that people learning these skills often go to the other extreme. I get that the DBT skills are work, work, work, and a good dose of acceptence for oneself.

But what do you do with your time? How do you find your true self? Having spent 2 weeks thinking about it, even if the codependent, self-sabotaging behaviour is rooted out, there is little, or no substance left. There is no true me.

If I am not in a relationship - I am a workaholic, who, when he cannot physically work anymore, turns to drinking and partying, and who often times finds himself  chasing "relationships" or love interests that no sane person would be interested in. I also have "hobbies", and by that I mean something that once was a true hobby for fun, but in time became an obsession - obsession to practice, obsession to please someone with it. Often times I think of hobbies as something to show my future partner, like a peacock feather or something. Add to that an inability to be alone and a desperate need for someone to acknowledge me.

If I'm in a relationship - I become a caretaker. 3 out of 4 of my long term, serious, partners had either bipolar, eating disorder or self-harmed. Often they'd accuse me of being controlling, while I wanted some basic maintainability of the relationship (not talking to exes, no cheating, no driving while intoxicated). And I guess they were right, but in a twisted way. I was controlling in that I knew from the start that they would be unable to provide that stability. Yet I took care of them, like a pet project. I should have just up and leave when these things became an issue. It's that simple. It's really sinister when I think about it. It's masochism.

But when we weren't arguing, I was jovial, happy, energetic. Something that just doesn't happen when I'm single. Why is that? Is what I was offering in those relationships a projection of the relationship that I should have with myself? I should be happy, relaxed, and jovial when on my own? I should be patient and forgiving? But that never happens. How do you attain that?

This inner-child thing is all good and all, but at the end of the day, no matter how much time I spend taking care of him, how many times I force myself to be good and kind to myself - I'm still looking at my phone, hoping that someone, anyone, even one of the exe-s that discarded me, acknowledges me. I try to now stay with this feeling though, to catch myself thinking that, and when in the past, I'd give in, and try to get attention from someone, I try to stop myself. But it feels so horrendously bad, I can't keep it up. It's so easy to turn to my imagination and live in the dream again.

What I found out is that when I try to stay with this feeling it has a huge impact on my unconscious mind. I get the same dream every night: For me a motorcycle is a symbol of complete independece. I love those things. And in this dreams there is riots in the street, some kind of a disaster with people running around trying to harm eachother, and while trying to escape I find an abandoned motorcycle. And I know that if I can get it running I can escape this madness, but the battery is dead so I try to kick start it, but the kick start lever is gone. I can't use it.

Hi Dindin

Hopefully you are still in therapy, as there is no substitute for professional assistance.

You have self awareness and a desire to change, and you should see that as a positive. Most of our ex-partners do not have this. 

But what do you do with your time? How do you find your true self? Having spent 2 weeks thinking about it, even if the codependent, self-sabotaging behaviour is rooted out, there is little, or no substance left. There is no true me

I am sorry that you feel this way, I am sure that there is more to you than that, you just need to find yourself.

You say that you should be happy, relaxed and jovial when on your own. You are setting a very high bar there. Maybe you could start by just trying to be relaxed on your own. What do you enjoy doing that could occupy your mind? Instead of looking at your phone, distract yourself in some way.

I am trying to make sense of it, but it comes down to her not managing symptoms of diagnosed BPD, but also of me being extremely co-dependent.

If she has been diagnosed, BPD without intensive therapy isnt manageable by anyone. The shoe will always drop. The self reflection you exhibit is where the answers are. Understanding yourself allows you to do something. You are gaining knowledge and pro active with it. Understanding and ACCEPTING, the severity of the illness seems to go a long ways. In the end you will realize, you were no match, in more ways than one.

I'd become almost narcissistic

For me. I was narcissistic and still carry some traits. It was a very narrow view of the world. A place, I felt I was safe. Kinda like a self imposed prison of sorts.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326872.0

But what do you do with your time? How do you find your true self?

Your true self will find you. For me, there was plenty of events in my childhood, that left parts of me there. It was my journey to find these parts, put them into a different perspective. I then found this child and brought him closer to me. Bringing the subconscious closer to the conscious, so to speak...What do you mean by asking what do you do with your time?

Add to that an inability to be alone and a desperate need for someone to acknowledge me.

Its you that needs to acknowledge you. Looking for your answers in others wont create anything but temporary happiness, I believe.

I become a caretaker. 3 out of 4 of my long term, serious, partners had either bipolar, eating disorder or self-harmed.

Care taking is part of me. Denying this is fruitless. Helping others that truly help themselves, is rewarding for me. Picking out dysfunctional partners is a separate issue, no? Outside of a couple of r/s that I have had, for the most part its been riddled with BPD traits.

Yet I took care of them, like a pet project. I should have just up and leave when these things became an issue. It's that simple. It's really sinister when I think about it. It's masochism.

To your defense, BPD is the eternal sadist and plays this role the majority of the time. So now that you have this information, using it to manipulate others would be sinister, so to speak. Learning of it, shouldnt be, I dont think. Pet projects are like jig saw puzzles with lots of pieces missing or the goal post that are always moving. It keeps us from focusing on us. The unsolvable puzzle.  The answers to why you couldnt leave would serve you well.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=131049.0

But that never happens. How do you attain that?

Self discovery. Persistence, consistency and the understanding that there is no finish line has helped me.

This inner-child thing is all good and all, but at the end of the day, no matter how much time I spend taking care of him,

He needs to be heard and understood, not taken care of. You appear to be minimizing him. The same thing you look for in a dysfunctional r/s, that has no answers except for the excuses you appear to distort. He needs more understanding, maybe placing his needs 1st for a while is needed.

how many times I force myself to be good and kind to myself

Until you believe this shouldnt have to be forceful, its fair and the kind thing to do. Therefore when you do this for yourself, you cant truly do it for others. Not that you dont attempt today, but some day you will do it better. The same could be said for love.

What I found out is that when I try to stay with this feeling it has a huge impact on my unconscious mind. I get the same dream every night: For me a motorcycle is a symbol of complete independece. I love those things. And in this dreams there is riots in the street, some kind of a disaster with people running around trying to harm eachother, and while trying to escape I find an abandoned motorcycle. And I know that if I can get it running I can escape this madness, but the battery is dead so I try to kick start it, but the kick start lever is gone. I can't use it.

Here is a website Dream Moods Dictionary, this is a very reputably site. Here is their perception.

 Riot

To see or participate in a riot in your dream suggests that you need to stand up for yourself. You need to speak up and address what is bothering you. Alternatively, the dream signifies a loss to your individuality. You are involved in a situation that is destructive to your well being.

Motorcycle

To see or ride a motorcycle in your dream symbolizes your desire for freedom and need for adventure. You may be trying to escape from some situation or some other responsibility in your waking life. Alternatively, a motorcycle is symbolic of raw sexuality. Perhaps you are moving too fast.

To see or be in a motorcycle chase in your dream implies that you are avoiding your responsibilities.


Maybe this puts a little different perspective to your dreams. I wish you well, Peace

Thanks Beth2468 and FindingMe2011 for your replies.

When I was asking: what do you do with your time. I meant really just that - what do you do. I am hurting now, feeling empty and depressed. I am relatively young, have no major money problems, no children, no pets, apart from my job all my life was filled with my r/s. Even my hobbies just drifted away and stopped giving me any pleasure.


FindingMe2011, your response made me think. You wrote about the uncoscious and the learning prcocess. Having read a lot of this forum, I can say that there are 2 camps of people here. One group seems to think that BPD is an illness, almost biological, and due to their poor choices or a lack of interpersonal techniques that illness caused harm in their life, and now they try to detach and move on.

Then there's another group, more academic or unconscious-oriented, so to speak. They seem to take radical responsibility for whatever happened. And this attitude is a thorn in the side of the first group, because they treat this disfunction an extention of their own personality. So when I, for instance, rebel against my BPD partner's accusations of me being narcissistic, the first group would say: they are really manipulative and often project their own evil onto you, don't listen to that, go NC. They seem to offer easy respones such as: if you ask whether you are, you most likely aren't. And the second group would say: wait a second, maybe you are, or even if you don't feel you are, why are you so bothered by this, why were in that position in the first place -- all seemingly to say that we, as if, summoned that relationship to happen, and everything in it is a mirror into our own being.

What I am trying to say is, I don't question the reality of the disorder. It is real, and it's brutal. But to leave it at that, at least for me, would make me simply more anxious about meeting people with personality disorders, and would make me up my defenses and boundries against them. And that's fine to a point, but it doesn't address the deeper meaning and personal accountability that I feel is warranted. And from your response I gather you seem to think similar, so I'd like to ask you all some questions, in the context of taking that insight with full responsibility.

1) The more I think about it, there is no other way for this disfunction to have happened than a dance of BPD and some kind of narcissistic (co-dependent?) wound in BOTH partners. But to say that it's only a matter of not having enough self-worth and boundries would be like saying that someone got shot because he wasn't wearing a bulletproof vest, and not that he was in fact in the middle of a battlefield. Would you agree with that?

2) What is the fantasy that is so attractive? Why do we seek out this mirroring quality. If say, we work with the assumption that we carry some form of a narcissistic wound, what are they reflecting if we have no true self? Is it exactly that? Do we project our own false self onto them, and what we get in the end is the realisation that there is no mirror, it cracks, and we are left with emptiness?

3) Why do they, inevetabily, feel persecuted by us? Do we really harm them by making them into carriers of our own darkness? I can imagine for me to want to see someting other in my partner than there actually is - my false self - would be a huge burden for anyone to bear. Just like for me it was hard to carry her emotional states all the time, if not more so.

But to say that it's only a matter of not having enough self-worth and boundries would be like saying that someone got shot because he wasn't wearing a bulletproof vest,

If you were more grounded, you would have already been wearing a bullet proof vest, to use your words. If you see a psychopath wielding a gun (BPD) do you run or go try and shake their hand, and then have the need to get to know them. A little exaggerated, but not so much. Boundaries for yourself should super seed. Applying this to ALL r/s goes a long ways.

But to say that it's only a matter of not having enough self-worth and boundries

Every time I hear the word but, I know an excuse is coming next. This is you minimizing the importance of you...Like trying to tell yourself just get over it and then it just keeps replaying over and over...Youre not listening to you. The self worth part is exactly where all the answers are. How did you get to this point? Do you believe there is another way? Do you see this in others to prove this?

Why do we seek out this mirroring quality.

A narcissist will ALWAYS fall in love with himself. If you studied this you would agree, I believe. Maybe try Altruistic Narcissism it fit for me.

If say, we work with the assumption that we carry some form of a narcissistic wound, what are they reflecting if we have no true self?

Its not an assumption, you do. You have a true self, its just shattered now. You are picking up the pieces and putting them back where they were, its comfortable. Just as you have always done. You could investigate these pieces and maybe put them where they belong, your choice.  She on the other hand has a HALF SELF, and needs a host to complete or become whole. See the difference and the problems she might be facing?

Why do they, inevetabily, feel persecuted by us?

You are just a stand in for the punitive parent in her childhood trauma. No more or less. The continuous loop that never stops. She is also trying to get it right this time. Her path is different than yours, but could appear the same.

Do we really harm them by making them into carriers of our own darkness?

This could be said of both participants. You are now both just triggers for each other. Good luck with that.

Just like for me it was hard to carry her emotional states all the time, if not more so.

This is how long the dance lasts. When you finally realize you cant be emotionally responsible for 2, the walls come crumbling down, its impossible and a fantasy. You will find your way through this if you continue. Im leaving for a couple of days. Looking forward to responses, I wish you well Peace

Thanks for your honest answer.

While I seem to understand the dynamic that played out in my r/s, I just cannot get a grip on myself emotionally. I am constantly just one step from contacting her and trying to explain, preach, boast, whatever selfish thing you can think of. I am constantly one step away from instant self-gratification, either drugs, a new fling, you name it, just to escape the brutality of the situation.

But now, thanks to just staying with it, I have a filter, small voice saying that maybe she rightly doesn't want to be contacted, doesn't want to be lectured to, maybe it's no time for new romantic interests or even sex. But let me tell you, even having these thoughts as options in my head is the hardest thing I ever done in my life. No tattoo hurts as much, no weight loss requires more discipline and control. And all I get from this is unbearable loneliness.

Is just staying with it, hurting through all this, the right thing to do? It feels like I am becoming a hermit to my own self. All the usual responses that didn't work in the past, are seen as maladaptions and I am literally left with nothing. Emptiness of not having control, of not relating with myself via the other. How does it help me? I need some support

Also, can anyone help. I feel a need to apologise for my part of the disfunction. Would it be advisable to reach out with this understanding? I don't know o why I feel this way. It's not going to change anything, and I'm afraid it's only me still trapped in over-relatedness to her.

I just cannot get a grip on myself emotionally.

Actually youre doing pretty good considering. Just know this is the healthy path to detachment. This is what you have avoided and now you see/feel why, to some degree. Be patient, do things you used to do, and find gratification in, by yourself, for yourself. It is that simple and a process. Making things simple brings calmer waters, eventually. It cant lasts forever and nothing you havent experienced before.

Is just staying with it, hurting through all this, the right thing to do?

Unfortunately yes.  The origins of these pains are yours. Discovering these and understanding how you could have interpreted them wrong, as a developing brain might do, would serve you well. Gaining this understanding through kindness and forgiveness, for YOURSELF (which right now youre having a hard time doing and most likely never have genuinely) Investigate this pain, dont fear it so much. Respect it.

I need some support

You have here, a T, and above all, you have you. A little wounded now but this wont last forever. Hang tight and EXPECT the roller coaster ride. Almost drown in it, till it hurts a little less. Lick your wounds and go back at it. This is where the most growth can be attained.

I feel a need to apologise for my part of the disfunction.

You do and to YOURSELF.  The rest you just need to accept for now. Its the process but it works.

Would it be advisable to reach out with this understanding?

Reach out for understanding from somebody incapable ? Its you needing understanding from you, others cant give you answers.

I don't know o why I feel this way. It's not going to change anything, and I'm afraid it's only me still trapped in over-relatedness to her.

It you NEEDING to do something for others instead of yourself. Yet you know this is fruitless. thinking of this is OK, acting isnt. The rumination will subside if you do this in a healthy way. The healthier, the quicker...its you trapped in your self imposed prison...Freedom awaits you. I wish you well, Peace

Actually, I was feeling pretty low and wrote a letter that I intended to send to my exBPD partner. Basically outlining my role in the disfunction, but also of saying sorry for the controlling behaviour and a release from obligations that I narcisstically conveyed durign break-up communication.

I was ready to send it, but something stopped me, and told me to rewrite it with pronouns changed, as if I wrote it to myself. And tears just come pouring... I don't think I have ever in my life experienced so much warmth, compassion and accountability towards myself. I just don't think I ever was anywhere near close to forgiving to myself, the way that I was overly-forgiving to my ex.

The whole r/s seems to be like a fairytale made real just for the purpose of life showing me what I should focus on and how I should treat myself.

I was ready to send it, but something stopped me, and told me to rewrite it with pronouns changed, as if I wrote it to myself. And tears just come pouring... I don't think I have ever in my life experienced so much warmth, compassion and accountability towards myself. I just don't think I ever was anywhere near close to forgiving to myself, the way that I was overly-forgiving to my ex.

This is you listening to you, congrats and now they can be tears of joy. You have never been truly/genuinely forgiving to yourself. You are finding understanding from the one you NEED to you. You previously have looked for this feeling from others. It was false and impossible. This is the start of genuine happiness. I wish you well, Peace            P.S. I hope you didnt send expecting anything but peace for yourself. She also needs to do this but the illness makes this next to impossible


The whole r/s seems to be like a fairytale made real just for the purpose of life showing me what I should focus on and how I should treat myself.


Spot on. It was once said "there are moments when the pain becomes great enough, we then have the opportunity to make change". Maybe this is one of these moments. If you continue,one day you will consider this a gift or at least understand this is what, it just may have taken, to make change.

It’s hard to figure out what to do with your time. Especially after coming to to realizations that you have. I’m simply guessing here, but you were a fixer. You wanted to make everything perfect. I get that. Finding other things to do is hard. If I missed the mark on the fixer thing, let me know. It’ll give me something to work harder on.

I am not so sure about being a fixer. It was more like I needed to understand everything, like I deperately wanted to be understood. I had extremely strong ideas on how someone should be, which I guess can come across as narcissistic.

I remember circular arguments and conversations that basically came down to me asking: "why did you cheat or lie?" More than anything I wanted to understand. I just couldn't comprehend the reality of the disorder, that someone might not have a developed self.

I remember that when I opened up and showed my absolutely most vurnerable feelings, I kind of fooled myself into thinking that I was understood, only to find out that my exBPD partner simply accepts what any given person tells her, and if the next person that she is attached to says something  in opposition to what I said, she literally was able to hold two opinions at the same time. I was extremely confused by this. It was like I found a perfect enigma to discipher.

When she did something bad, instead of this being taken at face value, I pestered her about an explanation. And what this was, was me trying to give her ultimate understanding and forgiveness, something that I didn't show myself or even truely experienced as a person.

Is this being a fixer? I knew she was "damaged" from the start. I tried to help her, but I think the biggest driving force was me trying to summon this complete understanding and forgiveness. And when I think about it, this is my childhood dynamic in a nutshell. For whatever reason, when I was a child and now in adulthood, my "mode" of being was always questioned. I did all the wrong choices. And for some reason I choose very critical women as partners.

And this is not me being oversensitive, I come for a highly narcissistic family, where I was scapegoated and even hated! Now as I allow myself to think about this, there were incidents that would made any sane person not speak to their parents. And yet even thinking about this as abuse is so, so hard. And this plays over and over in my relationships. Why? And an important question, is what I was experiencing in my r/s really abuse, comperable to what I experienced from my parents, or am I projecting?

I was extremely confused by this. It was like I found a perfect enigma to discipher.

The unsolvable puzzle. Just as the illness needs and it actually validated the illness correct, one more time in her head...The fixer part is you rather helping others, with their issues, so you dont have time to deal with your own. Its the path of least resistance. Most everybody does this.

I had extremely strong ideas on how someone should be, which I guess can come across as narcissistic.

It does and is...Takes one to know one, lol, my joke to myself, sorry.

I remember that when I opened up and showed my absolutely most vurnerable feelings, I kind of fooled myself into thinking that I was understood,

This was just telling the illness (and her also to some extent) your weak spots to be used later to control various situations. She is at the mercy of the illness.

And an important question, is what I was experiencing in my r/s really abuse, comperable to what I experienced from my parents, or am I projecting?

Spot on


As far as your time is concerned, get out and do things you remember giving you happiness. If you cant think of any, event some. You sitting around allowing others to rent space in your head for free, isnt going to help you. Fake it till you make it,. It works. I wish you well, Peace

There is something that I can't really wrap my head around. If I recognize some events as abuse, like for example, whenever I introduced my gf to my parents, even as an adult, they'd say: "I'm sorry dear you met him, you probably deserve better" in a joking way. A sane person would never have close ties with people like that. The same with boundries in a relationship, if a boundry is set as: don't cheat or lie. Then I'd get exactly zero chances at relationships, since everyone cheats or lies to some extent. Me included.

I know, this sounds like black and white thinking. But honestly, if I really guarded my personal boundries, I'd have no family to speak. If I respected myself, I'd have no relationships, or at least the pool of possible relationships is nearing zero. If I don't let myself being used to some extent, I'd have no jobs. I cannot get over this.

If I refuse to insert myself into drama, life feels empty. This sounds like addiction to disfunction. How do I overcome it? Is the price of boundries complete and utter loneliness or is that distorted thinking on my part?

"I'm sorry dear you met him, you probably deserve better" in a joking way.

Very narcissistic in nature. A passive aggressive way to say " This is my object, back off"

A sane person would never have close ties with people like that.

Yep. They would run like hell. Somebody accustom to this speak wouldnt.

Then I'd get exactly zero chances at relationships, since everyone cheats or lies to some extent. Me included.

When you stop, you can then GENUINELY ask this of others. If you see different you will walk. Little investment necessary and way less damaging.

I know, this sounds like black and white thinking. But honestly, if I really guarded my personal boundries, I'd have no family to speak.

If it truly is family. This cant/wont be possible, but if you know and expect it, maybe you wont take it so personally from now on. Learn how to bow out gracefully before it gets stupid and make sense of it in other ways. If its others, then find new friends. It is black and white thinking

If I respected myself, I'd have no relationships, or at least the pool of possible relationships is nearing zero.

If you had more respect for yourself you wouldnt NEED r/s. You would WANT a reciprocal one. Then understand how one good friend is equal to 1000000 facebook friends. You might just understand how dysfunctional social media truly is and not feel the need. So maybe zero today but with work, these odds could increase dramatically.

f I refuse to insert myself into drama, life feels empty. This sounds like addiction to disfunction.

It is and start trusting your instincts a little better, they are pretty good. This obviously has been a staple in your life. Staples can be changed. Maybe not perfectly but in a way you can learn to respect.

How do I overcome it?

Its work, and depending how much your willing to put in, determines what you get back. Holds true for most things, no?

Is the price of boundries complete and utter loneliness or is that distorted thinking on my part?

Its distorted. Maybe jumping into the unknown has created some of this. The fact is you were lonely with the illness. It just didnt appear this way to you at the time...Keep searching for truth, dont dictate it. It will come. I wish you well, Peace

How did you manage to get your narcissistic tendencies under control?

As for my free time, nothing really is joyful for me now. I tend to stop myself from drifting into workaholism or some other obsession, as it's very tempting. In the past I usually went straight into work, working out or boozing. Don't want to make that mistake again. So I take my time. Just trying to feel as much as I can, and not escape it. It gets me to very dark places.

And although I always loved music, I never really identified with their contents on an emotional level. But now I am just listening to Beck's Sea Change, and I don't know if I am projecting myself onto the lyrics, but it sounds like archetypically the same PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm) I am going through, and while it gives me comfort, I am ashamed to be so sentimental. Damn, I can't even enjoy things without questioning myself. I just don't want to drift away into too much self-pity.

How did you manage to get your narcissistic tendencies under control?

Interesting question, never thought about it until now. Thanks...Guess it started with separation from ex wife. At some point between visitation days, with my children, I spent 3 days on my living room floor curled up in the fetal position, with the most pain I had ever experienced. It had me feeling lost and non existent, to a large part. There was this little piece of me saying this person was not the entire cause of this misery. I was correct. It took a while to learn I was having what some called a narcissistic extinction burst. It fit for me. When I looked further and it took some time to get there, I realized I was an altruistic narcissist.(not once had anyone spoke of this until I did) I was always looking for one upmanship r/s, that I felt I could control. My guy friendships not so much. In many ways they are/were like me, so the behavior is accepted. Healthier people walk. I do these days...So as I could see how I lie to myself, I then had to question everything in life. I came to some different conclusions and all has benefited me. I am the only one I can truly save. I can only offer advice to others that ask for it. They have to do the work.

. I tend to stop myself from drifting into workaholism

Maybe this isnt so bad for now. At least its going to benefit you. As long as its not self harming, all is on the table.

Just trying to feel as much as I can, and not escape it. It gets me to very dark places.

As long as the dark place doesnt touch suicide, this is just what the doctor ordered...You have been here before, this time try to understand it. Its not going to happen the first time, but with consistency it will happen.

And although I always loved music, I never really identified with their contents on an emotional level. But now I am just listening to Beck's Sea Change, and I don't know if I am projecting myself onto the lyrics, but it sounds like archetypically the same PLEASE READ I am going through, and while it gives me comfort, I am ashamed to be so sentimental.

I like Beck, one of the greatest. Listening to Traffic- Dear Mr Fantasy right now. Jam to Zepplin, AC/DC, Almond Bros, and many more. Music is a great release. I propose turning up a good one and dancing to it. I do it all the time, lol.  Im not ashamed and neither should you.

I just don't want to drift away into too much self-pity.

If you stay vigilant, you wont. Its not going away over night either. You will figure out what is healthy or not, it will feel right. I wish you well, Peace

Interesting point. I just noticed that most of my friends are not, I don't know how to put it nicely, right in the head. Just now I am a support person for two people who are even in more drama than I was lately. And when I think about it our relationship was always one of listening to someone's drama, chiming in, and that's it. I don't know if I am selfish for saying this, but I can't be dealing with their stuff anymore, I don't want to be a confidante to a dimenshion of my life that I am not longer happy with. It's draining. I don't know why I choose people like these as closest friends, when I do have access to strong-willed individuals, who even like me, but I am never close to them. Why is that? Is this a narcissistic trait? I strangely feel this one upmanship dynamic playing with them.

Just now I am a support person for two people who are even in more drama than I was lately.

if these people are not truly helping themselves, youre enabling them. Validating their shortcomings.

I don't know if I am selfish for saying this, but I can't be dealing with their stuff anymore,

No, and you thinking this says plenty. Another dynamic to keep you in dysfunctional r/s...When you finally get to a point where you say what they need to hear, you will see who your friends are, and those of them that are interested in growing. I dont reject anybody. I just bow out gracefully and move on. If a person cant respect you asking for a little space, for your own personal issues, they are selfish. A comment or 2 is sufficient. You can only save you and they can only save themselves, is one. Telling them if they remove their end of any conflict. There is no conflict. Give them this advice and notice the responses.

I don't know why I choose people like these as closest friends, when I do have access to strong-willed individuals, who even like me, but I am never close to them. Why is that?

You dont like sharing the pedestal. But the fact remains to have a healthy relationship with anyone, even a pet, it needs to be shared. Its also a much better feeling, especially when you see this play out.

I strangely feel this one upmanship dynamic playing with them.

It does

who even like me,

These are most likely grounded people who recognize your good core. They are just trying to help also. These are the people to invest in. Do this without expecting anything from them. Watch a real r/s blossom, pretty cool... Keep it up. I wish you well, Peace       PS Listening to Led Zepplin Kashmir, lol might just dance a bit

Thanks. I started doing just that: when they ask me for advice or a comment I just reply: you know best what to think about it. And there's radio silence when I do that. And after an hour or so, there's more questions, or asking for validation. All our conversations were basically vomiting validation at each other. And I don't think that is helpful anymore.

I know it might sound insignificant, but when one of my friends was just complaining today, in the same manner that we've done for the past 10 years, I just said: "I don't really feel like dealing with it at the moment. Have my own stuff to do." I never in my life said anything close to this, either in my romantic relationships, family or friends. Or I might have said it, but I didn't actually mean it, like now. It's a big thing for me, but I don't really understand why rationally. It feels empowering.

It looks like just leaving people with their problems just makes everything the same that it would have been, except I don't get to spend time or energy on it.

PS. never really given Led Zeppelin a chance before, might try it :D

Led Zeppelin is great. Definitely give them a try.  As my local radio station says before they play one of their songs "Here's some Led for your head!"  :)

And I don't think that is helpful anymore.

It never was, but just where you were in life, doing your best. Your best is becoming better.



"I don't really feel like dealing with it at the moment. Have my own stuff to do." I never in my life said anything close to this, either in my romantic relationships, family or friends. Or I might have said it, but I didn't actually mean it, like now. It's a big thing for me, but I don't really understand why rationally. It feels empowering..

Because it is and you should pat yourself on the back...This is you respecting you and its not selfish to do this. In fact this creates a better you for whomever you come in contact with. Logic with emotional stability is powerful. Dont let the narc in you, ruin this. It will try.

It looks like just leaving people with their problems just makes everything the same that it would have been, except I don't get to spend time or energy on it.

If it looks this way, then it is. I would have to agree. Its just a game of triangulation. This game never ends. I wish you well,Peace

Please expand on this if you can. How is the narc going to ruin this? He's such an a**hole, I need to be one step ahead of him :)

Still I think this is extremely important. Like, by accident, I came across a new philosohpy of relating. And while it might seem minor when it comes to friends. But if I applied the same "self-centerdness" to some of my more turbulent romantic relationships... if nothing else, I'd be far less devastated by anxiety and feel less long-term shame.

But even in my family, I live through years-long dramas or problems that are really not mine, which were constructed to be unresolvable, I never wanted them - they appear emotionally like chains. They feel fabricated and stupid now. It's almost like my romantic relationships... But I still feel an enormous guilt for being selfish when I try to detach. I really don't understand why. Any ideas?

Why do I feel like a bad friend if I don't listen to someone complain? Why do I complain so much? Why do I feel like a bad son for not trying to fix problems of my parents? Why do I feel like a bad partner if I say: "I don't give a ****." I used to say that just to posture, but never actually meaning just that. Everyone always accused me of being selfish, and saying "I don't give a ****" just appears extremely, criminally wrong.

Also, why did I find so much self-worth, pleasure and even divine meaning in arguing, conversations, asking for and receiving validation? Now it all has some nasty undertones, like something's rotting all around me. I'd rather be shot in the face, than having another "relationship" conversation, and yet I instigated them! And if she called me back, I'd probably have another one... But through the mental pain that I am suffering now, I feel there's something worthwile if I can reject the old.

bpd is a set of personality traits, on a spectrum that ranges from functional, to dysfunctional, to extremely dysfunctional. at the more extreme end, mental illness may be involved. most professionals agree that personality traits are a mixture of nature and nurture.

the same is true for npd, as a personality disorder, but one key difference is that we all possess degrees of narcissism in general, ranging from healthy to unhealthy. suffering from a narcissistic wound, for example, is not the same thing as being "a narcissist".


there are a number of different models out there to describe a bpd/non bpd partnership; those are two of them. another model points to schema modes (www.schematherapy.com/id72.htm) which also speaks to the inner child. there are several others.

what is important to remember is that we all bring varying degrees of baggage, some conscious, some unconscious, into every relationship. we all, to varying degrees, look for/gravitate toward partners in order to heal childhood wounds.


because its hardwired, and it facilitates bonding.

its important to understand that "mirroring" is not a bad word, but its an equally important question youre asking. some people, for a variety of reasons, have a greater need to be mirrored than others.


in general, yes. moving through abandonment depression and grief is formative.

that shouldnt exclude doing so in a mindful way, or a healthy way, of course.


and others.


it is a bit black and white.

everyone has a difficult relative, difficult friend, has difficulties with their partners, etc. while it may be popular these days, emotionally or physically cutting everyone off who offends you is not only not a good example of healthy boundaries, its not an emotionally mature coping mechanism. "sane" people have relationships that are safe, and work (and that can mean different things for different people), and thats what good boundaries are about.

of course, not everyone is meant to be, or should be in your life; this isnt black and white either.


the descriptions do fit within the realm of codependency.

another model i might look into is bowens family systems theory and the concept of self differentiation. bfst states, in part, that we mate with our emotional equals, or people with a similar level of self differentiation to ourselves. it took me a long time to see it, because the way mine and my exs emotional immaturity manifested could look very different. i dont "rage". self differentiation is more about how we see ourselves, how we see others in relation to ourselves, overall life functioning, and how we cope than "im just like my ex".

the opposite of codependency is a well differentiated person.


youve already begun.

what you have seen and learned cant be unseen or unlearned. you will take your new awareness into the future in all kinds of relationships.

two things, presumably, occurred at some point in your life.

1. you realized on a conscious level that you are a separate entity from your parents.
2. you realized, probably many, many times, that others think differently from you, feel differently than you, like or dislike different things.

both are about self differentiation.

that, in essence, is what id encourage you to do with your time. test how you see yourself. test how you see yourself in relation to others. test how others see you. test how you see others. grow in emotional maturity. learn more about human nature. pathology has value, but its all too easy to pathologize what is human nature at play.

additionally, it sounds like you may be experiencing depression. address that - it makes everything harder.


youll grow; from this, and from whats ahead of you. just keep learning and keep reaching.

Please expand on this if you can. How is the narc going to ruin this? He's such an a**hole, I need to be one step ahead of him

Thanks for the laugh. I can relate. We tend to be the smartest one in the room, or we find another room. Everyone exhibits Narc traits, some just do this more. We are more susceptible to out thinking ourselves, or under thinking at times...As far as relationships are concerned. If you are entering for selfish reasons, dont. It wont end well as you probably know to some degree. Question yourself more often. it becomes habit because it feels right and fits. Old habits never die, you just curb them, till they look a little better to you and they will eventually if you are consistent. And when your not, you start all over again. You missed something obviously.

Still I think this is extremely important. Like, by accident, I came across a new philosohpy of relating. And while it might seem minor when it comes to friends. But if I applied the same "self-centerdness" to some of my more turbulent romantic relationships... if nothing else, I'd be far less devastated by anxiety and feel less long-term shame.

This comes mandatory when you approach others with no selfish intentions. I brought this way of thinking to everyone I come in contact with ( romantic ones a little different but not much) You would be amazed 3-6 year olds relate to me better than adults on many occasions. Kids are just small not stupid...The anxiety and shame are yours. No r/s is going to fix this, just numb it for a while.( this would be your selfish intention) This needs to be addressed at some point, sounds like the root or somewhere close.

they appear emotionally like chains. They feel fabricated and stupid now. It's almost like my romantic relationships..

Yes the song remains the same. The only thing different is the instruments, to appear different...When in Rome do as the Romans, and yes it appears you continued this in other ways. Playing black and white, when most things are grey. Fighting for what is right. When there is no right or wrong, just different. Looking back I can relate, thanks.

But I still feel an enormous guilt for being selfish when I try to detach. I really don't understand why. Any ideas?

FOG (fear obligation, guilt ) and its all yours. Kindly opened up with a dysfunctional r/s

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

I used to say that just to posture, but never actually meaning just that. Everyone always accused me of being selfish, and saying "I don't give a ****" just appears extremely, criminally wrong.

Me too, it worked thats why. Nothing much gets said. I just hid the selfishness a little better. lol I see this play out daily around me just in daily activities. If you think this is wrong then start acting another way. Ask true friends to point out this behavior. You begin to laugh at yourself.

Also, why did I find so much self-worth, pleasure and even divine meaning in arguing, conversations, asking for and receiving validation?

This will be the first lie to yourself that I point out...You didnt or you wouldnt be here. This is just the fantasy you had to live, to avoid you...Money really distorts things and just creates more fantasy, it did for me.

And if she called me back, I'd probably have another one.

You might and this would be OK but it wont bare the fruit you are looking for and probably make you feel worse...You will bounce all over the place, hang on and know its the process.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=208969.0

But through the mental pain that I am suffering now, I feel there's something worthwile if I can reject the old.

Dont reject the old. Understand it differently than you did as a child. Have understanding for this child and help him back, with kindness and forgiveness. You will be fine. I wish you well, Peace

Healthy mirroring begins the day we’re born. Eye contact, mimicking the sounds that our kiddos make. I kind of view it as an early form of validation. Mirroring is a healthy function in adults that were properly mirrored as children. The validation helps to develop their own identity and true self. If a child isn’t properly mirrored by parent/s during development, the adult version of that child will continue to seek it out. It’s an important part of development that was left out of the equation. Therefore, there’s a void that it is very hard to fill after the innocent years.

Guys, could you expand on this mirroring thing? I intuitively understand that this was the attraction that a feel to the BPD, and that this need for mirroring feeds both my codependent and narcissistic tendencies.

The void you describe is simply an emotional need not met during childhood, one for conectedness and ultimate validation? You don't question a child, right? If it's hungry it's hungry, if it's crying it's crying. Yet due to some disfunction in the family, or some biological predisposition of the child, this is simply not attained? Hence anxiety and fear?

'Cause in all honesty, when I felt most vulnerable and needy, I kinda detect that childish quality in it: it's all or nothing with the urgency of a runaway train. It literally feels like I am reverting to a child-like state. Is that it? That how I can recognise it? What do I do with it? Is really love and forgiveness to oneself the way to do that? How does one practically build it up?

Or am I completely missing the point somehow?

I intuitively understand that this was the attraction that a feel to the BPD, and that this need for mirroring feeds both my codependent and narcissistic tendencies.

its the same gaze a baby has when they first look into the mothers eyes. We dont remember this, but our subconscious does.  Maybe this helps.

As some parents on the board with children diagnosed with BPD will tell you, there was no abandonment for the child. There was merely the failure to separate from the primary caretaker in order to individuate. So in this way, enmeshment was encouraging infantilization and arrested development. Some very, very good Mothers are guilty of this. Helicopter Mothers make Bpd children as much as neglectful or abusive Mothers.

BPD is the failure to separate / individuate from primary caretakers. Consequently, they seek out replications of caretakers found in people who need perfect mirroring.

Many BPD partners are also suffering from immaturity. They also have developmental deficits in their thinking, and they project these onto the unknowing Borderline in order to cast off their own shame and utilize the defects of the Borderline as their combination mirroring agent and marketeer for their false self.

When the false self fails from imperfect mirroring; a huge narcissistic injury ensues. If this causes a jump into a new relationship to soothe the ego and calm the reactive need -then rightfully, the Borderline withdraws. (One of the signs of immaturity and impulsivity is multiple partners overlapping.)

There is no devaluation and discard from the Borderline. There is only a detachment and protection from the failure to become the perfect mirroring agent to a person who NEEDS perfect mirroring.

When a person needs perfect mirroring and must have it from multiple sources; moving on to recycle old flames or search on-line for new ones, or have one-night stands- this is a sign of insecurity. Never to be alone, unable to delay gratification. Always needy. Multiple relationships overlapping during the BPD relationship eliminate trust, safety, and security for a Borderline. This isn't a discard and devaluation- this is an extreme valuation that once temporarily soothed the developmental deficit and need for value. Sometimes, for both parties. One person is doing the necessary stepping back to detach and protect, and yes it involves hurt and mistrust.

Considering yourself to be above average in attractiveness, a "catch" and a somatic is something that pivots on reactions from mirrors. Using a person to act as a mirror objectifies that person until they become exhausted with feelings of bondage and slavery.

The subsequent retreat from this is not a devaluation, but rather a self fulfilling prophecy, that comes from selling themselves out to be used and the failure of individuation. Never to have the safety and security of being loved for who they are because they haven't found themselves in development. It is a repetition compulsion.

Borderlines often pick partners who do this because it proves their self-defeating actions. It is an unconscious response and one that takes many years of therapy to overcome. 

Let’s get you hooked up with the articles here.

Or am I completely missing the point somehow?

Not at all. You are asking questions that need to be asked. Dont feel the need to have the answers yesterday (Narc thinking) It took a long time to get here and there is no magic pill. You must search for truth, you cant dictate it. That doesnt work so well.

Is really love and forgiveness to oneself the way to do that?

At the very least love and acceptance. You were doing the best that you could, with the tools you had. Now youre collecting more tools and should do better. Do this a few times and see what happens. Nothing bad I can promise.

https://bpdinformer.wordpress.com/2016/12/17/bpd-mirroring/ (https://bpdinformer.wordpress.com/2016/12/17/bpd-mirroring/)

Feeding a hungry child is primitive. A simple response. Validation is a step up from that. We’re not only feeding the belly, we’re feeding the mind. Does that make sense? Malnourishment can affect more than the belly. Know what I mean? Down the road, your SO’s brain, emotions and psychology may not be so well because of emotional neglect or other things during childhood. You know her best. What are your thoughts?

You’re not missing any point. I think that you have a pretty good understanding. Quite a realization, isn’t it?. Do not worry. Embrace your new knowledge and move forward with it at your own speed. Everything is going to be okay. You’ve made a huge discovery and should be proud of yourself. Look, we didn’t ask for this but we are strong enough to figure it out and make sure it doesn’t move forward.

Yep. The child is simply surviving. Depending on what you’ve experienced, it might not be surprising if you experience these feelings as an adult. I have and it’s been a chore to try to get past. All I can do is work on it.

Guys, thanks so much for showing me all this. You are the best!

I just got so hooked up on this idea of mirroring and false self. I never actually understood what was said. I read the words, but I didn't understand it It's so hard to explain...

I just came across this article: https://www.tarabrach.com/articles-interviews/inquiring-trance/

I am not into religious stuff, but what she described about the false-self that is used to cover the shame, it just hit me like a brick to the face. I read all this stuff before, I thought I understood, but I didn't. I just did a small meditation-type-of-thing and just ruminated on this pause and acceptance, as contrasted to the endless pursuit of wanting more - even in self repair - knowing more, etc. it literally consumed my life for the last 20 years or more.

I just cannot understand how I could have spent so much time reading, talking, thinking, just to escape feelings. I am just speechless and am crying. And I am crying not because I consider this to be bad or wasted time. It's just pure compassion for myself...

But if my narcissistic wound required that mirroring, which I needed to look at my false self, to escape the reality of my own chronic shame, in how much of a deeper **** are the BPDs, if all they really are is being a mirror. My mind just cannot contemplate that suffering. I am starting to lose anger over the stuff that happened.

Dude, Tara Brach is a good find.

I’m not trying to cover you up, but the false self was taught to you. This is why our brains hurt. We have someone that we want to be, but somewhere along the way someone wouldn’t allow that because they needed you to step into a role where you supported them emotionally. What about your emotions, ya know?

As your title states, the inner child stuff is the most important thing. Check out the PSI (parent, sibling, in-law) board. It might help you out.

I am starting to lose anger over the stuff that happened.

It may come back and probably count on it. It will be a ride. The tears are for you by you, congrats. This is what being kind and forgiving is about. Finally you heard you. This is the beginning of your journey. I wish you well, Peace

Haha, the anger came sooner than I thought. She asked for her stuff back and to organize how she'd get her things from my place, which is reasonable enough. But my anger started kicking in when I realized she's cold about the whole thing. Like I didn't exist, and like we didn't plan so much of our future together. It might be a face she's putting, or the effect of painting me black, but it really, really hurts.

And I am sad that I still need something from her. I want her to be sad, to grieve, to at least not be cold. It's controlling in that I really feel I need that from her. At least for now, I'll just make a strictly rational mental note of the fact that I need it from her, when I should be needing this from myself, that's the best I can do at the moment. Emotions are still too strong

But my anger started kicking in when I realized she's cold about the whole thing.

Everybody grieves differently, so since she isnt doing this the way you believe she should, this is making you angry? It appears she is being reasonable, for now. Are you?

But my anger started kicking in when I realized she's cold about the whole thing. Like I didn't exist, and like we didn't plan so much of our future together.

Could this be your abandonment fear? The loss of an object, you once controlled?  The plans most likely would have changed, and there would be no happily ever after. Time to let go of this dream.

And I am sad that I still need something from her.

I dont believe its her, it could be any stand in right now. You still need much understanding from you. This road has just started, small achievements have been made, there is plenty left to do. None of this concerns her unless you believe it does. This is another lie you tell yourself.

that's the best I can do at the moment. Emotions are still too strong

Sounds as if it was done in a non hostile way. The actions matter at this point. The thoughts will be everywhere, count on it. This is what you have been avoiding, keep learning and investigating. Your doing better than some, and worse than others. Somewhere in the middle. I wish you well, Peace

Yes, yes it is. It is the abandoment fear. It has the quality of being primordial, of being impersonal almost, since it just as well could have been extended to a stand in if I think about it. It's like my r/s were always more about that fantasy than normal human connection.

But if I allow that line of thinking, my brain just automatically jumps to the conclusion: that it is my fault. That I **** up. I can't get over it.

But from the yesterday's meditation thing, I can't help at least feeling that it's all shame, shame, shame

I don't know if I did the right thing but...

On her way to pickup her stuff from my apartment, while I was at work, she asked if I wanted to have a ciggarette break with her. I don't really know why I said yes.

She drove up and we talked a bit. Immediately my inner narcissist wanted to either to talk about the r/s, or question her choices concerning whatever. But I said it to shut the **** up, and just listened to her trying my best to 1. be non jugmental 2. detach from any outcome. I must say this was strange. It seemed she is really on her own way, that really has nothing to do with me. I was kinda proud of her, the same way I am to an extend proud of myself. I found some respect for both of us in this situation.

Was I ok to be accept that invitation? I don't really know if I want to go n/c with her anymore. Up to now I see that me yapping about the n/c was in a way tied to my need to control the outcome, it wasn't genuine. What do you think?

But if I allow that line of thinking, my brain just automatically jumps to the conclusion: that it is my fault. That I **** up. I can't get over it

It always has and will for some time. The length depends on you. You now see the crux of narcissism. This time you have a different understanding. Its untraveled/unknown(not good for narcs) and will create anxiety. The more you travel this road, the more comfortable you will become.

But from the yesterday's meditation thing, I can't help at least feeling that it's all shame, shame, shame

And as long as suicide doesnt creep in this is what the doctor ordered. On a conscious level you understand this to be false. Lean on this heavily for now, it will serve you well. I rolled in my shame till it couldnt do anything more to me. The sun still rose the next day, and then it set.

On her way to pickup her stuff from my apartment, while I was at work, she asked if I wanted to have a ciggarette break with her. I don't really know why I said yes.

Sometimes we need to touch the stove again, just to make sure its still hot...This would be the path of least resistance, the one you have always traveled. At least you do understand there is another path. The blinders are coming off, there is only so much you can ingest in a day. Be patient kind and forgiving to you. Maybe your still looking for answers form her. The ones that dont exists.

Was I ok to be accept that invitation?

Hell yes. especially the way you handled it, cuddos to you.

I don't really know if I want to go n/c with her anymore.

It may work as a temporary fix, or you just might be content, this is for you to decide. Its 2 completely different mind sets. For me one is freedom and the other is a useless struggle. But it doesnt matter what I see.

Up to now I see that me yapping about the n/c was in a way tied to my need to control the outcome, it wasn't genuine. What do you think?

Your need to control is genuine, and this is your issue. BPD demands to be controlled regardless of what it says. It will always be a one upmanship relationship. The illness dictates this, and this is what youre trying to fix. Good luck with this. You will find your way if you continue thinking this way. Its hard and you will falter, expect it. I wish you well, Peace

For now I have to simply be passive about this contact or no contact thing. I just cannot really reach any conclusions about it (and even this is causing me shame). I let it be, with no interfering for now whatsoever, and forgivness for myself if I make any mistakes. It might be malignant hope underneath it, but I think I have bigger fish to catch elsewhere for now, and that is by focusing on myself and the idea of narcissism.

I am watching this gentleman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziIrvAm6rJw

He talks a little too academically and some things just fly over my head, but at one point, he compared the narcissist as not having true relationships but instead taking snapshots of people. And instead of human relating they interact with "photos" of people, as props or objects in their own play. He also describes a moment of narcissistic panic, when these "photos" misbehave and the narcissist feels as though: photos from a photo album come alive and attack him, exposing his shame and shortcomings. Any thoughts?

While these things happened in my life to some extent before, I think I have never felt it more deeply than now: while disentangling from a failed relationship between my narcicissm and BPD. If the BPD really needed a taskmasker, it is only fitting that they come across me, whose false self is precisely that? The guy from the video says that this mortification of the narcissist is exactly what he needs, the false self is shattered and it is time to escape.

What I also find interesting is that he said that narcissist find home-makers and non-promiscuous women boring because they do not offer the potential for mortification. And I don't know how to say this, but this describes me to a T. It's almost like even my sexuality and what I thouht were simply sexual preferences were involved in this plot. Mind boggling...

On a lighter note, I want to ask fellow "narcissistically-wounded" folks, or people familiar with these problems, a more practical question. How do you deal with criticism and nagging? And while I understand and take full responsibility for being oversensitive, at the same time, I swear I choose the most nagging people as partners. Even now, my exBPD, while she was taking her stuff from my flat, she had to send me a text: "by the way, I had to tell you this, your toilet is a mess".

I mean, why would I even need to know that.  It's exactly what my mother would say... And while we were together, and even with former partners, this nagging thing would happen all the time, nothing was right after a time. I couldn't even slice cucumbers the right way evidently.

I thought of 3 possibilities:

1) I am too sensitive, narcisstically so, and am blind to their innocent remarks.
2) With a BPD it's like a play on the shame that she knows I feel towards my parents. Pure hostility then.
3) She is mirroring my own nagging nature (I am at times like that, yes) - which is something that I never trully thought of as an option.

I understand that in the end it has nothing to do with her as a person, just trying to dissect my own response to what I percieve as unjust or misused criticissm.

photos from a photo album come alive and attack him, exposing his shame and shortcomings. Any thoughts?

Appears to be similar to objectification, with a paranoid twist. Maybe extreme narcissism ? Close to psychopathic ?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=87006.0

While these things happened in my life to some extent before, I think I have never felt it more deeply than now:

Because you have never sat with it, for this long. You could always muster a fix of some sort. So this is progress, further than ever before, congrats. This is a game of small victories. You eventually win the war.

while disentangling from a failed relationship between my narcicissm and BPD. If the BPD really needed a taskmasker, it is only fitting that they come across me, whose false self is precisely that? The guy from the video says that this mortification of the narcissist is exactly what he needs, the false self is shattered and it is time to escape.


BPD needs a host, and it doesnt matter who. The narc doesnt see through this until its to late, they are hooked. The dance begins...Its in this time of shatter, that the most growth can be achieved. Its the way the human mind is geared, respect it.

What I also find interesting is that he said that narcissist find home-makers and non-promiscuous women boring because they do not offer the potential for mortification. And I don't know how to say this, but this describes me to a T. It's almost like even my sexuality and what I thought were simply sexual preferences were involved in this plot. Mind boggling.

The electric charge I have felt my whole life replayed in a brutal way as an adult... Further evidence we are at the mercy of the subconscious. it fits


On a lighter note, I want to ask fellow "narcissistically-wounded" folks, or people familiar with these problems, a more practical question. How do you deal with criticism and nagging? And while I understand and take full responsibility for being oversensitive, at the same time, I swear I choose the most nagging people as partners. Even now, my exBPD, while she was taking her stuff from my flat, she had to send me a text: "by the way, I had to tell you this, your toilet is a mess".

Its hard to find folks that admit to it, even here unfortunately... Criticism mostly shows how the one giving it, has shortcomings and on full display if you listen correctly. Constructive criticism is where somebody actually asks for your input to solve an issue. Do you see the difference?  ...So many times i could say back to a person, from whatever they had to say. "Did this make you feel better" and laugh. Soon they will find others to criticize. They do it to make you feel as they do. Misery loves company...BPD would do this to feel needed by you and maybe help convince you, I suppose. Not hard to clean a toilet. lol

I mean, why would I even need to know that.  It's exactly what my mother would say..

You said it...We do seek out our mothers in romantic relationships. Maybe now this will change enough to have an amicable, reciprocating r/s.

I couldn't even slice cucumbers the right way evidently.


Thats the funniest thing I have heard all days, thanks...I remember not rinsing off dishes properly lol

1) I am too sensitive, narcisstically so, and am blind to their innocent remarks.
2) With a BPD it's like a play on the shame that she knows I feel towards my parents. Pure hostility then.
3) She is mirroring my own nagging nature (I am at times like that, yes) - which is something that I never trully thought of as an option.


You hit the trifecta, and you may add to this list some day. BPD doesnt understand anything, but the fact it works. They need you, more than you need them in the end. They are not whole with out you. You are whole but shattered without them.

, just trying to dissect my own response to what I percieve as unjust or misused criticissm.

What you perceive is black and white. Maybe there is no right and wrong, just different. We all should be in control of our own lives, to make decisions. Others dont have to agree, but at the very least respect them. I also have a choice to involve myself.

I understand that in the end it has nothing to do with her as a person,

Because it has everything to do with you as a person and what you truly want for yourself in the future. Not what you NEED today. It is a long game ...interesting and fun when you get the hang of it. I wish you well, Peace

It is black and white thinking I guess. I am just thinking about it. Trying to address it, as it has been a huge deal in my relationships and my own self-reflection.

The guy in the video I quoted had an interesting idea about us feeling hurt in general. That it is often forgotten that the response you have to being "hurt" is yours only. That it's narcissistic to assume that people have the same way of feeling as you do. So if I hurt you, and I am feeling bad because I feel guilty it is a response that I have of and to myself. A wall doesn't cry if you throw profanities at it. You know what I mean?

So it terms of criticism, if you're narcissistic, like I am, I assume everyone else has the same responses and directedness towards shame. While being criticized, justly or wrongly, my false-self is in grave danger which triggers shame. So I assume that the person is diabolical almost, because I am diabolical to myself and others.

I am so selfish that I refuse to let other reality-checking mechanisms to kick in. In reality, apart the introduction of toxic shame that I do myself, there are gradations of the situation that are much less threathening, from: he's just an incosiderate ***hole; he might be right; or he has inner processes that I simply cannot understand and have nothing to do with me.

What I am saying is, I cannot control if someone is an incosiderate ***hole, I cannot control someone's inner processes. The only thing I can actually do is control my own interpratation of someone's behaviour, reality check it with compassion and level-headedness. And it might mean I will say: "I don't give a ****", and just laught it off, or it might mean I will say: "I don't give a **** about being with someone whose internal processes, which are out of my control, make me suffer. Or it might say: I'll wait and see" Any thoughts?

PS. It is really weird you'd say that people don't really admit to having narcissistic tendencies or wounds here. I know I might be opinionated and looking for some validation, but it seems it's almost a prerequisite for being with a person with BPD. Or at least on the same spectrum as codependency.

It is black and white thinking I guess. I am just thinking about it. Trying to address it, as it has been a huge deal in my relationships and my own self-reflection.

Its not wise to use black and white thinking when self reflecting. Maybe ask this of yourself when reflecting. It will land you in the same spot. Another crux of narcissism it appears. This leaves no room for acceptance (of things we necessarily dont agree with) and this is one of the objectives, that apparently will never become achieved. Maybe a reason some never get there, interesting.

That it is often forgotten that the response you have to being "hurt" is yours only.

I would agree. I dont think people are born with a sense of hurt. It has to be experienced to know how to feel. In my case I dont remember 6 or so and younger. Something had to have happened or i wouldnt know how to feel this way...The subconscious knows the way. its buried there. Protected me then, destroying me now. Something had to give.

That it's narcissistic to assume that people have the same way of feeling as you do. So if I hurt you, and I am feeling bad because I feel guilty it is a response that I have of and to myself. A wall doesn't cry if you throw profanities at it. You know what I mean?

All people do this to some extent. Narcs just push the spectrum. Too much of anything is not good.

So it terms of criticism, if you're narcissistic, like I am, I assume everyone else has the same responses and directedness towards shame. While being criticized, justly or wrongly, my false-self is in grave danger which triggers shame. So I assume that the person is diabolical almost, because I am diabolical to myself and others.

Shame can also come in large or smaller doses. Youre attempting to protect yourself. it obviously appears diabolical to you. be easy on yourself, its not nearly this bad. you just see this right now, this should change...it all boils down to intimacy and abandonment for every human on earth.

I am so selfish that I refuse to let other reality-checking mechanisms to kick in.

No its more like youre attempting to protect yourself and your feeling shame for doing this. Right now you cant let other reality checking mechanisms kick in. You are now experiencing brain over load. Its alot to take in. Re read things you missed plenty and will see this. This will also change. They say habits take 30 days. Try it and see where you sit then.

"I don't give a **** about being with someone whose internal processes, which are out of my control, make me suffer.

I agree with all of them but this one. All is true but the suffering part. So I have to ask, a little suffering now or eternal suffering ? There is no right answer and the choice is yours. Maybe its time to give a PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm), just a little.

Or at least on the same spectrum as codependency.

It is and this is what you get on a free website... it was paramount for me, it somewhat started my journey. Maybe yours also. I wish you well, Peace

I think back now on how you described the visit from her. it was calculated to size you up, and by the snide remark, she believes she has you, again. Maybe a recycle is in order, your choice.

I honestly think that my narcissistic traits are responsible for a lot of suffering I am experiencing. I remember I went to therapy complaining how dissatisfied I am with my job. I am never in a room of people that I want to be. Having dealt with this BPD breakup, I try to change my perspective on everything that is going on, just fake another view. The results are like a wave of emotions that has been allowed to make a mark on reality, in a way imbuing everyone else with a soul. (Sorry for being overly sentimental here)

For example, I just overheard one of my colleagues explain something to a new employee. I tried to pay close attention to my thought process. Somehow in my mind I made it all to be about me! A conversation that has absolutely zero to do with me in reality. "I could explain it better." "If you need to explain something, this says a lot about me -- that they didn't come to me for help!", "I remember when I was new, I knew this stuff" -> Which lead to shame being experienced. etc. It runs deeper than I thought... All about me, me, me. Then I just listened, and saw that exchange as two people being themselves, expressing themselves. I threw all judgment to a garbage bin, it was extremely hard, and I liked them more after that exchange. Don't know why.

I think back now on how you described the visit from her. it was calculated to size you up, and by the snide remark, she believes she has you, again. Maybe a recycle is in order, your choice.
Could anyone expand on this? What does it mean? Usually when things were this messy I reached out and was chasing people.

I need some support. She was just here, to pick the rest of her stuff that she forgot yesterday. We had a little chat. I am really ashamed of myself, I asked her if she wanted to grab a drink, or if she misses me, or if she thinks this break up was a good idea. I'm just pathetic. I showed so much weakness, I just feel like all that I wrote here and told myself I felt up to this point was a charade, so I get moral points for seeing my wrongs, and she'd change her mind... It's just really bad. Of course she said no, and I still hope she reconsiders... Nothing's learnt, I just wasted another r/s

She was so composed and level-headed, unlike her completely, I'm starting to suspect she might have been misdiagnosed with BPD, and I'm the instigator here.

This right here is the pinnacle of shame

Guys, you said time and time again that in a BPD r/s the other partner is universally a stand in for a punitive parent image. Have you ever seen this loyalty to the punitive parent actually play out in real life? What I mean by that, while being nasty to me during her BPD episodes, she repeated time and again that: she doesn't need another man like her father (who left her family when she was little due to his cheating) in her life.

And now, when she came to talk, she said she is going away for good, and that is... to live with her dad and start a life there. It's almost like her loyalty just switched, from that to a romantic partner, to that of a punitive, outcast parent, which she claimed she hated while being with me. It's almost archetypal, or am I just seeing things...

Don’t feel ashamed. After the final breakup with S5’s mom, I asked her if I could take her and our Son to lunch. She agreed. We ended up having sex after. The next time that I saw her she said very hurtful things right in front of our Son. I felt very ashamed when I left with S5 that day. Her rage and her words were a trip back to childhood emotionally. I didn’t know that then.

It’s hard, but try not to dig too deep. Some people lack empathy and remorse. They just can’t feel it. It doesn’t cause a spark in their brains. That’s why we can be a sobbing mess, and the other person can be straight faced and even smiling.

I understand the shame. Go easy on yourself.

Also, have you looked up the term “splitting”?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340822.msg13055629#msg13055629 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340822.msg13055629#msg13055629)

Play it loud or turn it off.

Thanks for kind words. I'm sorry you went through this. I understand that digging too deep is a wrong move, but emotionally I'm at a complete loss. This was the most empathetic person I ever knew, at least I thought so, and when I simply openend up about her disappearing like that, from one day to another, that it felt like a loss I have never experienced, it was so sudden, as if someone was killed or never returned home. She simply said: "Well that's breakups for you".

I know she might be grieving differently, I get it. But it's like no other break-up I have ever experienced, like a UFO has abducted a person I thought I knew. It's a mourning of my sense of reality to a point.

PS. The link you posted doesn't work :)

she repeated time and again that: she doesn't need another man like her father (who left her family when she was little due to his cheating) in her life.

This would most likely be the story she was told, regardless of the circumstances. Its very common for the one not there, to receive all the blame. They could have only been 50 % of the problem, no?

And now, when she came to talk, she said she is going away for good, and that is... to live with her dad and start a life there.

This will be her primary attachment for now and this will change. Maybe things will change but most likely not. One day you will be able to wish her the best, but first you must let go. its best for all.

I need some support. She was just here, to pick the rest of her stuff that she forgot yesterday.

This was planned

We had a little chat. I am really ashamed of myself, I asked her if she wanted to grab a drink, or if she misses me, or if she thinks this break up was a good idea. I'm just pathetic. I showed so much weakness,

Not pathetic, just trying to cure a narcissistic injury the easy way. She also knows youre a potential host for now. She will contact from time to time.

I just feel like all that I wrote here and told myself I felt up to this point was a charade, so I get moral points for seeing my wrongs, and she'd change her mind... It's just really bad.

This is also part of the process. it appears the r/s isnt available for now. Detachment is in order, no?

She was so composed and level-headed, unlike her completely,

Maybe its her father, or another attachment she is mirroring. Just as the illness dictates.

It's a mourning of my sense of reality to a point.

Because a lot of it was fantasy.

I try to change my perspective on everything that is going on, just fake another view.

As long as you are faking healthier positions on things, its not faking, its putting in hard work. Because it is.

Of course she said no, and I still hope she reconsiders... Nothing's learnt, I just wasted another r/s

Plenty has been learned, its just most cant stick. Its the process and the crux of narcissism. Its a narrow view with not many options. Yet there are plenty of options. Hopefully you reach for the healthier options. I wish you well, Peace





 

Thanks a lot for you support!

I'm a bit more level-headed today. The shame doesn't sting as much. I think I need to give myself a break. It seems to me, I've been dealing with forces that I had no buisness trying to control or even understand. I need to garner some sympathy for myself in this defeat. Much healthier people have been through this and ended up feeling just as devastated. I just thought I am stronger than this primodial dance, which was a huge illusion fed on extreme neediness and shame.

I'll try to keep on faking a new way of interacting and detachment, if only for the fact that the previous ways are completely maldaptive. I am so tired of every little aspect of my life being completely overridden by shame and fear, this is no way to live

She just wrote me a text about if I want to adopt her pet. I already told her no to that. So what gives? Why the communication? Is she just as bad about getting that supply as I am, and it's all a game? Or am I reading too much into stuff?

Let's say it is indeed a game, it doesn't matter anyway because that “relationship” is over no matter what and deep down you know it, you only have to accept it at this point. I can see so much of myself in your rumination and obvious panic, if I read the first posts I wrote on this forum I just cringe. You know, pwBPDs, when they decide it’s over, it’s really over in their mind, they have this magic switch and it hurts because of this feeling we are now irrelevant, well it's not a feeling, we really are for them.
My ex was also behaved like a marketing agent when she discarded me, she even coldly asked all her gifts to be returned to her and returned mine (which I refused). This is classic BPD discard and you should try not to take it personally, most of us went through the exact same thing.
Maybe, it would be a good idea to start enforcing strict no contact at this point and to begin the detachment process which can take a long time and is a damn roller coaster ride, the sooner you start the better.

I just cannot do it. I tried, I cannot go no-contact. I still check if there are new messages... I tired blocking or not using social media, only to unblock them the next day. And she sees that and asky why I'm back on social media, as if she is monitoring, what a stupid game that is, and it's entirely of my own will... As much as I can process this intellectually, secretly I am still hoping for a rebound. I don't go actively chasing it, I don't initiate contact, don't go responding beyond what is fair, but still I have a lot of hope that somehow it works out. But I really don't want to be waiting... I feel I can be stuck in this limbo and this can go on for months.

Deep down, I have this delusion. On one hand I know that things would not improve without us both doing substantial amount of work. And seeing that I cannot really count on that happening on her part, I am still wondering what would happen if I could handle things on my end with the full understanding of the disorder. I know this wouldn't be conventional love, but at least I could get the connection that I loved so much. It is a lot of wishful thinking, and minimizing what I could be getting out of life...

I can see I make some progress on how I operate, I am trying to understand what happened, and I am addressing my issues in therapy once a week, and self work every day, but this hope, just doesn't die. Any advice?

Ah my friend, you are so not leaving in reality. I am not blaming here, been there done that and understand the struggle. There is and was no real relationship with her but you will realise that soon enough during you healing process.
You really have to stop the social media thing as it will drive you crazy, as simple as that, especially when the full reality of the situation will strike you, you are running after a fantasy, that fantasy is not coming back, it's a one time thing. The end goal is to detach from her, does is sucks? Yeah, big time, but trust me there is no alternative.
I would like a recycle too, not to take her back but just to give my ego the satisfaction to say NO, it's not gonna happen though, she probably doesn't even remember who I am.

I'm a bit more level-headed today. The shame doesn't sting as much.

Good for you and know this wont last. Savior these days, to remember when youre not. This is the root of your issues. Just thinking you have processed this and just getting over it, isnt going to cut it.

I think I need to give myself a break.

Another crux of your shortcomings. You dont know how and probably havent, genuinely. The order to the disorder. You will need to do this in order to find a little more peace.

I need to garner some sympathy for myself in this defeat.

If you dont you will look for this in another and it most likely wont end well. It takes time be patient with yourself. Keep reinforcing healthy thoughts. They deserve 50% of the time, to be fair with yourself.

It seems to me, I've been dealing with forces that I had no buisness trying to control or even understand.

You seem to be calling another human being "forces", maybe? Objectification?... If its the illness then yes you should understand...Then get to your shortcomings. This is where the healing is.

Much healthier people have been through this and ended up feeling just as devastated. I just thought I am stronger than this primodial dance, which was a huge illusion fed on extreme neediness and shame.

Is it possible they are not much healthier than you? Can you point to perfect mental health? ... So maybe youre not as strong as you thought (the illness knew this also) accept this with kindness and forgiveness towards yourself. Dont use this as a weapon against yourself. The shame creates neediness. It also creates the illusion you need to deal with this shame. This can be removed if it becomes a priority like other aspects of your life seem to get.

I'll try to keep on faking a new way of interacting and detachment,

This is very contradicting and isnt going to work so well. Interacting shouldnt include detachment. Detachment shouldnt include interacting. You really do need to make this executive decision. This isnt healthy for either one of you.

if only for the fact that the previous ways are completely maldaptive.

Youre really not that far from previous ways. The dance is still going, maybe just a different step or so.

I am so tired of every little aspect of my life being completely overridden by shame and fear, this is no way to live

This is because you are surviving not living. Surviving takes a lot of energy. Living creates energy.

She just wrote me a text about if I want to adopt her pet. I already told her no to that. So what gives? Why the communication?

Then dont reply. She already knew the answer. Healthy relationships have boundaries. Crossing boundaries shouldnt get rewarded, should they?...She is just seeing how available you are. The illness dictates this.

Is she just as bad about getting that supply as I am, and it's all a game? Or am I reading too much into stuff?

She is, but for different reasons I presume. Its the game and there are no winners.

I just cannot do it. I tried, I cannot go no-contact. I still check if there are new messages...

No boundaries for yourself, therefore none for others...Practice makes perfect. Time yourself each time...Make the periods longer, call this progress. it is. Go do something. Help a complete stranger you believe, is attempting to help themselves. Changing your thinking requires actions, not just thinking. Habits take 30 days or so. Do the work, it works.

I tired blocking or not using social media, only to unblock them the next day.

Go 2 days next time.

And she sees that and asky why I'm back on social media, as if she is monitoring, what a stupid game that is, and it's entirely of my own will...

She is monitoring, you will eventually have to let go, the illness wont. The best you will get is a retreat.

As much as I can process this intellectually, secretly I am still hoping for a rebound.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/surviving-break-when-your-partner-has-borderline-personality

I feel I can be stuck in this limbo and this can go on for months.

It could go on for decades, it happens.

I can see I make some progress on how I operate, understanding of what happened, am addressing my issues by therapy once a week, and self work every day, but this hope, just doesn't die. Any advice?

More HOPE less UNCERTAINTY, More UNCERTAINTY less HOPE ...this is the crux and a hamster wheel of pain. Its how your geared for now. respect it and slowly change this it takes time. If you see progress then keep heading this way. Youre putting in the time and anything worth while takes time. Much like chopping wood, after work you have a pile. I wish you well, Peace

You mention empathy. Do you feel like you received throughout the relationship? Did you feel like it was given to you when the relationship ended?

Thanks guys for your responses.

FindingMe2011, what you wrote is spot on. I'll try to let that sink in deeper.

JNChell , True empathy? Now that I think about it, I don't think so. I thought I did experience it, but it was more like devouring the aspects of the other than taking on board the differences or just sharing the experience of life. There were bits and pieces of true connection, but I remember some major things about myself, and how I was feeling - that I shared in hopes of being at least seen as autonomous - that were heard but never, I don't know how to say it, respected? And often even used against me later on, like literally in verbal abuse or information pieces during triangulation with friends. And to be honest, I was guilty of that as well, I internalised her feeling-states too much, as oposed just being with them, you know? Which I just now recognise was unhealthy.

I very often was left with the complete lack of freedom even in extremely minute aspects of life. Like buying my own clothes, or wanting to spend time reading. That was always questioned. I mean, the minimal amount of empathy would be a person understanding that someone might like a different style of clothes? Right? And even when she said she did understand, I wouldn't have to fight tooth and nail for the privilage of having the freedom to read or do my own thing from time to time?

And during the break-up, defenitely no. There wasn't even a game of devouring the other, it was just a complete discard.

True empathy? Now that I think about it, I don't think so. I thought I did experience it, but it was more like devouring the aspects of the other than taking on board the differences or just sharing the experience of life. There were bits and pieces of true connection,

This is a staple of the narc/borderline r/s. She needed you to complete her. You were attracted to her, you subsumed her. She mimicked this back to you( a ploy developed through trial and error for her. This has been shut off for her. She cant actually go there, its death. The true connection feeling is her trying to deal with intimacy issues, just as you are. This helps you to some degree, it just spikes her abandonment fears. Leaving you to say what the hell, I thought we were getting some where. She is just looking for a safe spot. There are none. The dance continues.

, but I remember some major things about myself, and how I was feeling - that I shared in hopes of being at least seen as autonomous - that were heard but never, I don't know how to say it, respected?

This was impossible. BPD cant individuate, they need to enmesh in order to survive. I could only imagine the fear this would stoke in the illness.

And often even used against me later on, like literally in verbal abuse or information pieces during triangulation with friends. And to be honest, I was guilty of that as well,

You probably didnt want to go there, but you had to, for this dance to continue. Its the easier path. Info is used for weapons in the heat of battle, its survival. Not many rules to war.

I internalised her feeling-states too much, as oposed just being with them, you know? Which I just now recognise was unhealthy.

You were doing this way before this r/s, it just continued the dynamic. You dont like it, but you damn sure know how to survive in it. Its a comfort zone, so to speak. Good for you to recognize, now you have at least a chance of fixing/curbing.

I very often was left with the complete lack of freedom even in extremely minute aspects of life. Like buying my own clothes, or wanting to spend time reading. That was always questioned.

These are all threats to BPD, much like another woman would be.

And during the break-up, defenitely no. There wasn't even a game of devouring the other, it was just a complete discard.

You were trying to be noble and create a future, the best you could. She was facing death. The illness dictates the discard. Keep reading and re-reading. At times of not being able to retain info, take a break, get some exercise, do something for a complete stranger, eat well. Learn how to genuinely take care of you. It will feel funny at first, but in time you will get comfortable with this. It works. I wish you well, Peace

Hey Dindin. If you feel such a strong need for other peoples attention and validation, and you put yourself in rescuing/abusive situations, and you obsess and distract yourself a lot, then you need to focus on loving and validating yourself, relaxing more often and getting in touch with your feelings.

What has helped me do this is to try to give myself compliments (realistic compliments, not egotistical ones)
Egotistical compliments are ones that require you to compare yourself to others to feel good, or that overly inflate things about yourself. Realistic compliments are ones that don't need comparing, such as "I am a good cook" instead of "I am the best cook in the house". "I think my face looks handsome" instead of "I'm a 8, I'm much more attractive than most men". Compliments give self esteem, the other one feeds the ego, which is never satisfied.

Also, try to recognize your accomplishments, even if small and pat yourself on the back for them often. Talk kindly to yourself, have mercy on yourself, give yourself acceptance, your emotions acceptance, use kind words towards yourself, tell yourself "I love you".

Relaxing can just be taking things slower, or sitting in nature, or meditating, or having quiet time before bed, if you slow down you will get in touch with your emotions more.

And what do you do with those emotions? Well, some of them you can act on, but if it's a lot of difficult emotions I find journaling invaluable. It expels a lot of emotional energy and helps my thought process evolve. Also, if it's too intense, especially with anger or something I find punching my pillow or screaming into, or walking back and forth are all great tools.

I used to be in the same place as you, I'd stay busy constantly and was obsessed with impressing others, and rescued people too much, and had low self esteem.

Also, in Buddhism there is no self. But I think a more accurate thing to say is that we are evolving people and our self isn't static, so we can't pin it down. But on a more practical level, you can focus on certain traits of yourself and try to appreciate and grow them and define yourself more how you want to instead of just looking at your jumble of traits and thinking your stuck like that, you're not. Although it may be useful to revisit the past and reconnect to certain things from the past, and move beyond unresolved issues.

Anyways, good luck, hope this helps.

Could you expand on this? Because quite literally my struggles to be autonomous with these minute aspects of life were construed to be signs of cheating! Maybe she could read me more than I thought. Because at the end of the relationship I came to the conclusion that the energy we spent was tangled the wrong way, so to speak. Instead of autonomy being the default state and interest, understanding and love being other-directed, we were enmeshed, and had to spend energy to be autonomous. Which I came to resent, and not as a blow to the relationship I understood completely that it was the right thing to do, even for the relationship, to change that. And that was my ultimate sin in her eyes. That's why I was so dumbfounded, when the allegations of cheating came. I thought we were doing ok, I felt closer than ever, despite some tension and akwardness to disentangle. I thoght it was a good thing for us, for me, and for her.

Because even in my previous relationship, with a much more balanced person, I understood, maybe too little, but emotionally it was there, that I was codependent. And I completely owned the responsibility for that misadaptation. I knew deep down that allowing the other person to do their own thing is good. Of course, it was a train-wreck, I wasn't able to do it right, I was too deep in the suffering caused by that fear. But not in a million years would I come to the conclusion that they were inherently selfish for wanting it, and to blame them for my suffering. I failed, but I didn't put the blame on them for it.

Thanks for your answer. It is spot on. I try to revisit stuff from my childhood but it's extremely hard. But I must admit I was completely cut off from those emotions, and at least now they get heard a little.

But I am also stuck in internalising my exBPD accusations of being maliciouslly, irreperably narcissistic. I cannot shake it off. If I feel good, or wanting to treat myself, or  am proud of anything, I automatically revert to the feeling of shame for wanting something. Like it's inherently evil that I take pride in something I do. It's like I internalized so much of "you are so selfish" from my parents and exBPD, that I cannot distinguish between my true, maladaptive narcissistic tendencies, from healthy pride and self-preservation. It's really difficult. I almost cut myself off from friends because I got it in my head that me wanting friends is just an outlet for narcissistic supply...

Yeah, I mean it will take a while to shake those things that the BPDex put into your head, it took me a long time. But make sure to counter those thoughts with "No it is okay to feel a sense of accomplishment".

As for narcissism don't view it as something inherently evil, it's a compensation for a lack of self worth. If you don't feel adequate with who you are (however flawed and imperfect that is), then you need to compensate by inflating your ego. So giving yourself compliments and pats on the back will actually reduce your narcissism, not increase it, as long as you do it in the right way.

Thanks for you support.

Just saw a new therapist. What I got out of the first session is that I let other people and what's worse, myself, stick a finger in my face and tell me I'm a piece of ****. She seemed to suggest that the negativity with which I treat myself is extreme. I think I really could have taken up the persona of a cruel, judgmental parent, espcially towards myself.

That I even use the idea of narcissism to go hard on myself, instead of a good thing to build myself up and fix problems. She asked me to think about how others, especially my parents and exBPD, treated me in the past. I cried a little there, and then like a little girl when I got outside. In all my years in therapy I never cried.

She asked me how I felt. I really felt like a little kid who accepted others who hurt me ca go **** themselves and eat a ****. Sorry for the language, that is literally what I felt ;)

Could you expand on this? Because quite literally my struggles to be autonomous with these minute aspects of life were construed to be signs of cheating!

This is how the illness processes perceived threats...Perception is real to the one perceiving...Its the illness and you dont fully understand(dont want to) nor do you respect it. This will be required. If not you will most likely end up here again.

we were enmeshed, and had to spend energy to be autonomous.

She was enmeshed and is where she needed to be. You on the other hand were trying to grow. There is no autonomous with BPD.

I thoght it was a good thing for us, for me, and for her.

Me too and actually a few times. So beating yourself up for doing the best you could appears self defeating. When these thoughts arrive, give good ones the same space. Equal time, this would be fair to you, no? It takes practice and you will start to catch yourself, when other times you could never see this. This would be progress, just as you are making now. I had similar things said to me. My reply. " This isnt the answer I was looking for doc, dont you have a pill or something to make this go away yesterday?" He said unfortunately this is the only healthy way...Im glad he said this later. It didnt help so much at the time. It did tell me I was traveling the right way, so I gathered some faith in myself and slugged through the mud some more.

I knew deep down that allowing the other person to do their own thing is good. Of course, it was a train-wreck, I wasn't able to do it right, I was too deep in the suffering caused by that fear. But not in a million years would I come to the conclusion that they were inherently selfish for wanting it, and to blame them for my suffering. I failed, but I didn't put the blame on them for it.

This isnt a failure. This is a wealth of knowledge and very good insight. Trust your instincts a little more, they are good...not so sure of the inherently selfish part, but the rest is spot on for me. Maybe Im missing something...Learning isnt failing. This is tiring, I remember.

and at least now they get heard a little.

This could be the start of an avalanche so to speak, but a good one. Allow the emotions to flow. Name them if you can. There were times I couldnt name them. it was just that fog I had hanging over me, for what seemed like forever. Your work is paying off, remain as patient as you can,

She asked me to think about how others, especially my parents and exBPD, treated me in the past. I cried a little there, and then like a little girl when I got outside. In all my years in therapy I never cried. I was angry they did this to me. And I was angry at myself I let it happen all again.

Anger is never a stand alone emotion. Its there to protect you from the pain behind it. Touching this pain (like your doing now) will allow you to put things to rest. Hopefully soon you will be able to bathe in them. This is the cure and as long as suicide doesnt have a say. Its just what the doctor ordered. Seems you have a better T. Good for you. I wish you well Peace

Hi dindin. Just be open minded and when it comes to our thoughts at these emotional times, we "talk" to ourselves in life more than we speak to anyone else, why make them self hurtful one's?

Going back to childhood it is very easy to take criticism and derogatory comments to heart, not yet developed to discern how accurate they are.

Your ex threw some comments around, is she a consultant psychiatrist? It resonated as an echo from childhood, id ask the same question, were your parents?

Triggers are just triggers. It is id call retraumatising. Be the mature one to rise above it. Seek the advice of someone skilled if it bothers you enough. An hour with a psychiatrist going over the last 6 months of your life would let you have a clear answer.

If I suspected I had a terminal illness id ask a qualified person, not my bpd ex or doctor google.

You are not the only human who will never "fully understand" who - you - are let alone anyone else. The ego causes this.

If you choose to go back to her can we get some honesty about what the connection is. Desires are powerful push factors, you mentioned drug use, same reward pathways. It sounds like you might be facing cravings for not her but how she made you feel, if that makes sense, just my take on it.

Thanks for your kind words. I was thinking a bit about the last question. And there is no doubt in my mind that big factor of what I miss about the r/s, is me not being alone. Just plain companionship. Someone to talk to at the end of the day. I have friends and all, but it's not the same. I really, really enjoy having that special someone to tell how my day went, etc.

And there is also the deeply personal stuff. How caring she were. The little gifts, the dates. The relationship with her family. Plans for future... But I guess reality was that it was only good, when she was happy. When she wasn't, she destroyed these plans and shoved them down my throat, almost mocking me for having them. I remember one instance, when it was 3 months of talking about starting a family in the future, and the next day an akward conversation, where she told me: if I had a baby with you, what do you think about an abortion, I think I'd have one. Just like that. No letting me down gently and empathetically if she really changed her mind. It was 180 degrees. Kids (You'd be amazing as a dad) -> I'd have an abortion (That would be a life devastating mistake). Brutal stuff...

I understand changing one's mind about stuff like that. But going 180, from one day to another, and not thinking through what it means to another person, to whom you told you'd make a great dad, to telling them you'd rather have an abortion... It was one of the hardest, most devastating things I ever experienced. But now I know they really think with their emotions. And in reality there was no real plan for a future together. But at the time, a bit of me really died.

Sorry I'm reminiscing about this, but T told me to always remember both the good and bad.

When she wasn't happy, it could have been abuse, it could have been another tantrum. It could have been another "demand", or a criticism that I am angry when she mistreats me. My T asked me what was the feeling when I got home when she was feeling low or mid-bpd-spell. It was familiar. I remember the exact feeling of anticipation I had when my dad came home from work. 50% he's gonna be angry and smash something in my room, or 50% he's gonna be a loving dad and we're gonna play football.

There's also the black and white thinking that I have that I might not find someone as caring, interesting or good looking. But I know that is just post break-up depression and low self esteem, but it's there, can't deny it.

So to sum up, I guess it was some good, and rest was trauma-inducing, crazy-making  instability, eerily familiar from my childhood, with my low self esteem tolarating the bad, erasing it, thinking I can't do better. Add to that my deep craving for connection and belonging. And that's what you get ;)

No problem Dindin.

I mean I used to be super hard on myself and treat myself like crap, and my relationship with my ex-girlfriend amplified that times 1000. You have those punitive parent tapes in your head, you need to start replacing them with kind tapes in your head, it takes practice and time, but you can do it. I did it, I went from viewing myself as a worthless piece of crap failture to a good guy, who is skilled in various things and tries to help when he can.

Attractiveness and looks fade over time.

maybe you cant do better and thats ok?

Oh, when it comes to attractiveness I know. I don't care as long as someone is attractive to me for there to be at least some sexual chemistry, I don't go chasing super models or anything like that. I was talking more about the "connection" and "caring" nature, for whatever reason this is something that I am extremely attracted to. I petrified that I won't find someone to click with, to have that spark. Humour, spontaneity, and the feeling childlike wonder are a big big thing for me, conversations, the feeling of conectedness, etc. (Although I understand BPD could have been mirroring that need in me to an extent). I miss all that.

This could be the start of an avalanche so to speak, but a good one.

Oh it did start. Don't know what caused it, but since the breakup, therapy, etc I am almost always on the verge of crying, but not in a depressed way nowadays. Just stuff comes to me, can't explain it. Mostly bottled up feelings from childhood. True sadness. I started noticing how negative I am towards myself, hanging on every little bit of negative opinion about myself. And I've been noticing it almost every second of every day. If this has been going on in the background before, it's no wonder I was so anxious all the time.

I don't know how to handle these emotions, it just seems to me that the key to all this is, and sorry for sounding too emo, is love. Love for myself. The idea of love that I had in my life just wasn't love. I read a bit about a trauma bond, and it seems to be describing my r/s and  childhood cravings more than this almost spiritual outpouring that I now feel. Hard to describe. And it's agony to be going through this.

Also I think that if someone saw me nowadays and heard my internal monologue, they'd think I'm schizofrenic. It's basically this: doing a bit of every day life, then registering maladaptive or just hateful thoughts that I have inside, and then negotiations with myself to maybe not be such a **** and not make other people responsible to deal with this need, they aren't objects - which is easier said than done, I feel like I am battling monsters. And when these obviously don't work, I am forced to visualise myself as a little kid and just trying to cheer that fella up. I'm going crazy.

it sounds like depressive symptoms to me dindin.

are you getting help for this, it can make a huge difference to quieting down the inner chatter.

It’s hard to stay “comfortably” in a relationship when it’s evident that empathy is lacking or not there. Most of us here do anyway because we’re fixers. I don’t think that’s a bad trait if it’s bounced off of a person that can reciprocate. I think it’s safe to say that your partner couldn’t reciprocate.

More times than not, feelings and behaviors of a relationship can really rub off on us. Enmeshment. No space, no individuality and ultimately, isolation. Not sure if it went that way for you. I’m projecting. :(

You brought someone close to you and that person should’ve had the decency to respect you. As it is, it sounds like more is coming out, which is good.

Childhood my friend. Come to the “Childhood” board. I float all over this forum like an annoying fly. I started out here over the final implosion of S5’s mom and myself. Ended up on PSI. You’ve said it yourself. Childhood. Hope to see you there.

I petrified that I won't find someone to click with, to have that spark. Humour, spontaneity, and the feeling childlike wonder are a big big thing for me, conversations, the feeling of conectedness, etc. (Although I understand BPD could have been mirroring that need in me to an extent). I miss all that.

You have just expressed me, to some degree. Im still spontaneous, feel younger, talk to all I come in contact with, mostly asking questions... I have learned to accept what individuals have to offer and enjoy this. As I meet new people Im finding that I still have an attraction to somewhat crazy. At least now I know what Im getting in to and I believe I will find the right crazy for me, one day. ...You will retain all of this and gain much more. If done correctly you wont have missed anything. You will just realize you needed this in order to get where you WANTED to be.

Oh it did start. Don't know what caused it, but since the breakup, therapy, etc I am almost always on the verge of crying, but not in a depressed way nowadays.

A lifetime of sucking it up has caused it. Youre actually getting acquainted with your emotions. What you are doing is working. Good for you, as this was liberating for me. Youre going to bounce all over the place still, expect this. At times of dis-regulation put names to your emotions...sad, happy, relieved, shame, guilt, depression, ect. I found I couldnt name depression, it was my normal to some degree. Roll in them, good and bad.  You are hearing you, it will feel different for a while. Its OK to cry. Listen to yourself, its OK. Understand yourself, its OK. Love yourself, its OK.

Just stuff comes to me, can't explain it. Mostly bottled up feelings from childhood. True sadness. I started noticing how negative I am towards myself, hanging on every little bit of negative opinion about myself. And I've been noticing it almost every second of every day. If this has been going on in the background before, it's no wonder I was so anxious all the time.

You would be amazed at what just comes to me now...Congrats this would be you, GENUINELY, being kind and forgiving to yourself. Nothing temporary about this compassion, keep it up it lasts a lifetime.

I don't know how to handle these emotions, it just seems to me that the key to all this is, and sorry for sounding too emo, is love. Love for myself.

LOL just as a narc would do...You dont handle them, allow them to flow and understand them. Dont apologize to me. APOLOGIZE TO YOURSELF, for not allowing you to love you, you always have deserved this. Its finally here.

The idea of love that I had in my life just wasn't love.

The idea I had, from as long as I can remember, was actually accomplished. i then looked around at everything and wondered why I wasnt happy. It was obviously a lie I had convinced myself of. I missed something.

Hard to describe. And it's agony to be going through this.

Youre trying to control something you dont understand, another crux...Learn to let go, its also liberating. The agony needs to be a "learning experience"

they'd think I'm schizofrenic.

Thats OK...This stuff will come out sideways at times. Regain wise mind and move on.

It's basically this: doing a bit of every day life, then registering maladaptive or just hateful thoughts that I have inside, and then negotiations with myself to maybe not be such a **** and not make other people responsible to deal with this need, they aren't objects - which is easier said than done, I feel like I am battling monsters. And when these obviously don't work,

Are these just thoughts or are there actions involved?...In some respects you are battling monsters, I guess. So are these monsters just ones you never recognized before?

I am forced to visualise myself as a little kid and just trying to cheer that fella up. I'm going crazy.

He doesnt need cheering. He needs understanding and compassion. As these start to come(as they are now) then cheer a little and get back to understanding. There is lots to understand. Your path appears liberating. I wish you well, Peace

Thanks guys

JNChell: Yeah it is childhood. I'm willing to bet my dad is somewhere on the cluster B spectrum. Makes no difference to me which acronym, but I was definetly abused as a kid and as an adult, now that I think about it, it's the first time in my life that I am ready to accept it and take responsibility for any "fleas" or my own narc tendencies so this curse goes no further than me.

FindingMe2011: This craziness that is attractive to me, I know what you mean. I honestly didn't know that it was a dance that I participated in, a dynamic. It seemed things just happened to me, but now I see how much I added and prolonged the suffering. And I just cannot believe how ignorant and/or bad-willed I was in all this. Just yesterday I chatted with an old friend of mine who hit me up out of the blue, who herself has BPD, and whom, in the past, I found "weirdly charming".

Even talking about everyday stuff, I just cannot believe to what extent all this is scripted. We didn't talk in years, and right off the bat, in five minutes we talk like we spent every day together. Now I know what it is, she is just intense. I can see how enmeshed she is to everyone, that I could just as easily be a stand in for any of her r/s that she wasn't too shy to talk about - and what is scarier - that she could be a stand in for me if I didn't catch myself doing it! And how I feed on that intensity, like a bloody vampire. In the past, if this was a romantic interest, I would consider it a good vibe for the first date...

It's so weird how, in that brief encounter, she talked about her r/s, and why I felt compelled to listen to it, why was I even there listening, and somehow I projected myself onto it, and found myself with high "stakes" in the whole thing. With a virtual stranger...

I have no idea why this is so hypnotizing to me, be it a friend, be it a partner, be it a colleague, be it an idea, be it work... but at least I know I have to build a filter for these things and get a grip

I have no idea why this is so hypnotizing to me, be it a friend, be it a partner, be it a colleague, be it an idea, be it work... but at least I know I have to build a filter for these things and get a grip

its attention and we thrive on the pedestal. Looking for something our parents didnt give us, understanding...You cant fix something if you dont know its broke. Kind and forgiving to you...Dont obsess on changing too much. You cant and most of you is a good core. Your words say this. Just make sure youre not doing things for a selfish intention. The rest will take care of itself.

Just yesterday I chatted with an old friend of mine who hit me up out of the blue, who herself has BPD, and whom, in the past, I found "weirdly charming".

I have had a few past and present, i suspect with BPD traits. Its been interesting to have conversation on the dynamics with them. Some seem to get it and try. Others only seem to be able to, get so far and draw a line. Their choice.
 I wish you well, Peace

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