Questions about effect of BP/NP parent on children

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GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT This board is intended for general questions about BPD and other personality disorders, trait definitions, and related therapies and diagnostics. Topics should be formatted as a question. Please do not host topics related to the specific pwBPD in your life - those discussions should be hosted on an appropraite [L1] - [L4] board. You will find indepth information provided by our senior members in our workshop board discussions (click here).

[Randi Kreger]

In my new book, I will have a chapter on Helping the nonBP/NP parent. I will be interviewing some major child psychologists and people who are in a position to help. For now, I would love you to give me answers on some very specific questions WITHOUT going into a major, major story because I need to compile the answers and it will be difficult to wade through a long email to find the answer. I intend to be as practically helpful as possible and your participation will ensure I ask the right questions and get the answers to the questions you need. I am being specific to info about the children, not has much coparenting issues that affect only you—keep it focused on the kids. I don’t need this info until Feb 1, 2012


1)   How old are your children/grandchildren?
2)   What is their situation, eg parents are married, transitioning, divorced?
3)   Is the parent more BPD or more narcissistic, or both? If you don’t know, just say so.
4)   What do you see as the main problem, eg criticizing, blaming, enmeshment? How bad is it from a scale of 1 to ten? Does this have to do with stuff this during the marriage, transitioning, or divorcing and coparenting?
5)   What symptoms do your children have, eg problems at school, signs of PTSD? How bad on a scale of 1 to 10?
6)   Have you stepped in to set limits or somehow make the situation better for the child? Why or why not?
7)   If so, what have you tried that seems to have worked? Have people here given you input that works?
8)   What have you tried that does not work?
9)   (Was there ever an event that was the last straw and caused you to step in?
10)   Is there anything good about the person’s parenting?
11)   Are the kids either your reason for staying and your reason for leaving?
12)   If you left, have things gotten better for them?
13)   What questions would you have for a child expert? How could they be of most help to you?


I will compile the answers and base the chapter on what you need most.


Thank you thank you thank you.

[qcarolr]

What a great topic. I do want to reply, but it will be from the perspective of a grandparent raising a young granddaughter with a custody agreement requiring parental involvement with my dh and I and gd6. I do not have time today - but am marking this thread to come back.
qcr xoxo

[Gettingthere]

I am waiting for this book!  

1)   How old are your children/grandchildren?

Ds9, DD5, DS1

2)   What is their situation, eg parents are married, transitioning, divorced?

Seperated currently divorcing

3)   Is the parent more BPD or more narcissistic, or both? If you don’t know, just say so.
Slightly more npd. at a guess 45%bpd, 55%npd

4)   What do you see as the main problem, eg criticizing, blaming, enmeshment? How bad is it from a scale of 1 to ten? Does this have to do with stuff this during the marriage, transitioning, or divorcing and coparenting?

Yikes so many probs. Criticizing 9/10, blaming and general failure to take responsibility for anything 8/10, enmeshment with ds9 8/10, splitting of children 7/10 failure to identify, yet alone meet childrens needs and diff age appropriateness 10/10, gaslighting the kids 6/10 the children being hypervilgilant 8/10 undermining the other parent 7/10 failure to set flexible boundaries 9/10 failure to respect other than himself 10/10 (gives the kids the message that they are nor worthy) periods of dissociation 10/10 - increases the fact that he is a flight risk

These were all present through the marriage and i fear they will worsen now with the divorce  

5)   What symptoms do your children have, eg problems at school, signs of PTSD? How bad on a scale of 1 to 10?
DS9 was hypervigilant. this has settled in the 5 months they've not seen dad (due to the court process, they will be seeing him).  His sense of self and sefl estm were being eroded.  He wouldnt make choices. eg ask him to go get dressed 10mins later he'd be stood in front of an open wardrobe. He'd say "I DONT KNOW WHAT TO PUT ON" but when you questioned him about that he'd truthfully say "but if i choose something dad will come and tell me to put something different on, so whats the point"...which ties in with him being hypervigilant and trying to mind read.DD5 is a queen of manipulation   she has learnt what works with him.

6)   Have you stepped in to set limits or somehow make the situation better for the child? Why or why not?
The realisation that i cant control dad nor change his parenting was a big factor in me seperating from him.  He also became physically abusive to ds9 - so yes in that sense ive set a boundary ie we will not live with this.

7)   If so, what have you tried that seems to have worked? Have people here given you input that works?

I will see if it works when contact re established i fear not in the longterm

8)   What have you tried that does not work?

explaining, giving parenting books/articles etc

9)   (Was there ever an event that was the last straw and caused you to step in?
yes when he hit ds9 as stated above.

10)   Is there anything good about the person’s parenting?

He has a playful style of parenting when he chooses and thats good for the kids as its different from mine - but the majority of the time he chooses to abdicate himself from his parenting role...its too much like hard work for him

11)   Are the kids either your reason for staying and your reason for leaving?

Both. i stayed because i thought foolishly that if i was there at least i'd know what he was doing/saying to the kids and be able to counteract it.  After time i realised he was going to try and poison them against me whatever, and its a better role model to leave and not put up with it, then its ok to be disrespectful to your mum. I have to deal with the poisoning either way.  I also think that the less direct influence they have from his bpd/npd the better - that does not mean i dont think that they should have regular contact, but that i think they need a stable homelife as respite in between contact times.

12)   If you left, have things gotten better for them?

Contact is yet to re-start - their are court proceedings and he has gone abroad for a couple of months so this has delayed it all. In the 5months since we left, the children have gone through various emtions, but DS9 has had the biggest positive impact. He is no longer hypervigilant, his self confidence and decision making has grown, and he realises the fruits of his efforts with tasks (whereas previosuly dad would take over and ds9 left feeling he was unable to accomplish without dad's help)  DD5 is finding it harder cos (being the only girl) she was being moulded into the "daddys princess" type and being dependant on narcassisitic dad...and mummmy wont to everything for her.  She's trying to manipulate to get her way and currently having to "unlearn" the last 5 years. Its impossible to say for DS16months who had just turned 1 at the time.

13)   What questions would you have for a child expert? How could they be of most help to you?

Tell me how to raise resilaint children, to deal with the behaviours; they are going to have contact with dad but how do i help them not to take on the drama or get his fleas.
How do i counter/manage/undo the effect of his behaviours eg splitting the children? (he recently sent money for them for a celebration - ds9 x, dd5 1/2x, ds1 1/4x. Now i dont think that a baby needs money and indeed the value of x was wholly inappropriate but ds 9 and dd5 very quickly realised the inequity...
How can i limit the children taking on his behaviours eg critising, negative outlook, blaming etc?
How do i help get my children off the drama triangle that they will inevitably hav been raised on? ( i am working on myself for this, but ds9 especially is at an age to try and fuel and continue these dynamics)


Hope that helps. Tried not to go into specifics

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT This board is intended for general questions about BPD and other personality disorders, trait definitions, and related therapies and diagnostics. Topics should be formatted as a question. Please do not host topics related to the specific pwBPD in your life - those discussions should be hosted on an appropraite [L1] - [L4] board. You will find indepth information provided by our senior members in our workshop board discussions (click here).

[catnap]

1)   How old are your children/grandchildren?

14 month granddaughter, her father (my son) get sole custody when she was 7 months old. 


2)   What is their situation, eg parents are married, transitioning, divorced?

Son and girlfriend were not married. An "accidental" pregnancy occurred when he was trying to get out of the relationship.

3)   Is the parent more BPD or more narcissistic, or both? If you don’t know, just say so.

A mixture, definitely some NPD traits.


4)   What do you see as the main problem, eg criticizing, blaming, enmeshment? How bad is it from a scale of 1 to ten? Does this have to do with stuff this during the marriage, transitioning, or divorcing and coparenting?

Drug and alcohol abuse, purposefully overfeeding the child to make her fat because she liked fat babies, posting photos (including one of the 4 month old child with a mouthful of french fries) of the baby on her FB calling the child WideLoad and Fatty, refusing to take her to the doctor for 6 month check up and refusing to let my son take her for check up, child was not bathed for days, letting her 4 1/2 yr old globally delayed son from another r/s have access the baby w/o supervision (she has scar on her head from him hitting her with an object), lying about who was babysitting the baby (often her ex-boyfriend who smoked dope and a low level drug dealer), etc.  Later, she refused to let our family to see the baby.   Level 10


5)   What symptoms do your children have, eg problems at school, signs of PTSD? How bad on a scale of 1 to 10?

I hope none.  She is very bonded with my son, in fact she does prefer males over females.  She is excited to see me (I babysit often), but Daddy is always the first person of choice.

6)   Have you stepped in to set limits or somehow make the situation better for the child? Why or why not?

Yes, when son came to me in January and gradually told me what was really going on (some of the information obtained thru PI).  Found a good attorney and went to court.  Mother was given supervised visitation if she completed certain things (she didn't) has not seen the child since May 2011. 


7)   If so, what have you tried that seems to have worked? Have people here given you input that works?

Not applicable

8)   What have you tried that does not work?

Not applicable

9)   (Was there ever an event that was the last straw and caused you to step in?

When my son came to me and I found out what BPD was, especially articles relating to how the children of BPD mothers affect their children. 

10)   Is there anything good about the person’s parenting?

Not that I could see.  She imposed her tastes (the baby does not like bananas, because she did not like them), liked to dress her up and show her off, but ignored her in private, her son was the "good" one, because he is "special".  She got her work to do Christmas for her son, but not her daughter.  The toys I gave my GD were given to her son.

11)   Are the kids either your reason for staying and your reason for leaving?

A prime reason my son got out.  He stayed in the r/s for the baby's sake and when he talked to attorney went for sole custody.   

12)   If you left, have things gotten better for them?

Yes.

13)   What questions would you have for a child expert? How could they be of most help to you?

What do we tell the daughter about her mother when she is old enough to ask?  So far, the explanation would be your mother was sick and could not take proper care of you. 

Do we include the information (as she gets older) she has a step-brother, even though he is likely so damaged  that he will be cared for all of his life?

Therapy would be good but at what age to help with all of this?  Do not want her having unrealistic expectations about her Mom.

Wanted to add that Splitting was very helpful in the type of attorney my son chose.  Thank you!

[ennie]

1)   How old are your children/grandchildren?

7 and 11 (both girls)

2)   What is their situation, eg parents are married, transitioning, divorced?

Parents are divorced. 

3)   Is the parent more BPD or more narcissistic, or both? If you don’t know, just say so.

Not sure.  One diagnosis was reported as BPD by her BF. 

4)   What do you see as the main problem, eg criticizing, blaming, enmeshment? How bad is it from a scale of 1 to ten? Does this have to do with stuff this during the marriage, transitioning, or divorcing and coparenting?

Main problem with kids is enmeshment and mom wanting to isolate and alienate kids from people they love, by engaging the kids in false allegations of abuse, etc. Also threats of abandonment, not loving, suicide which creates a lot of fear and anxiety for the kids.  Also, just instability--moving a lot, new BFs, kids being told someone is "family" who they know all of two weeks, then being told to hate that person.  Main problem for my husband (their dad) and I (stepmom) is their BPD mom engaging in extreme blame of us, including negative campaigning and occasional violence. 

5)   What symptoms do your children have, eg problems at school, signs of PTSD? How bad on a scale of 1 to 10? SD11 has learning disabilities that make her operate about 2 grades below her peers.  She also has poor reality testing when under stress, lying and occasional mild disassociative behaviors. SD7 has issues with eating--very picky about food, sometimes not eating meals.  She has tummy aches and headaches.  On a scale of 1-10 I would say SD11's issues are a 3-4; SD7's are about a 2-3. 

6)   Have you stepped in to set limits or somehow make the situation better for the child? Why or why not?

Yes and no.  We were involved in a year long custody suit to allow us to set boundaries; DH chose to ask for no more than 50% custody due to the expense of more intense litigation needed to prove the kids needed us to have more custody; due to the lack of physical abuse on her part of the kids and the difficulty of establishing emotional abuse; due to the fact that we were told by lawyers and therapists that we would be unlikely to get more than 50% custody; and due to the fact that we both work and getting more than 50% custody would be very hard for us as a family. 

DH has also talked with the kids BPD mom in extreme situations, asked her to let the kids stay with us a few days.  She has allowed this. 

7)   If so, what have you tried that seems to have worked? Have people here given you input that works?

1) Kids see a therapist, who they love and who is great with them.  That seems to ease their stress significantly. 
2) Directly addressing with kids what is going on when mom steps up alienation efforts works, if we do this sparingly.  Many people have told me as a step-mom never to say negative stuff about mom.  I try hard to love the kids mom for who she is, but it has been important to me to address difficult stuff that is happening.  This is very uncomfortable for the kids, but is hugely stress relieving.  Direct communication (with sensitivity and age-appropriateness, as well as care for mom) has been the antidote for alienation.  Both DH and I have strong, loving relationships with both kids, who both express love for us often and have been willing to endure a lot from mom while still maintaining closeness and love for us as well as mom. 
3) with BPDmom, I have found expressing genuine love totally dissolves whatever rage or anger she is expressing.  Just saying "I love you" usually really touches her. 

8)   What have you tried that does not work?

1) Being upset with the kids when my stress level is way too high (mainly while we were in the worse part of litigation). 
2) getting angry at my husband because he has not set boundaries with his BPD ex. 
3) With BPDmom, what does not work is compromise, if we have any expectation that she will follow suit.  In fact, when we give in, she almost always gets very upset.  In general, it seems to work better to set clear boundaries, even unfair boundaries, than to be reasonable.  A peaceful, kind approach is usually triggering for her.  She feels like we are better than her if we can be kind about something, and she becomes enraged. 

9)   (Was there ever an event that was the last straw and caused you to step in?

Yes, for DH.  When SD11 was 10 years old, her mom made her tell her dad all the ways he was a terrible parent and that she would hurt herself or run away if she could not live only with her mom.  Dad said, "I hear you" and took her home.  It was obvious to him that if he kept being nice and avoiding legal action, the kids would eventually reject him. 

10)   Is there anything good about the person’s parenting?

Yes. She can be very loving in a childlike way that the kids feel and receive.  Also, she is very creative particularly around holidays and does great crafts with the kids.  When she feels threatened, she tends to volunteer at school a lot to prove she is a "good" mom, which can be inconvenient for DH and I, but works well for the kids. 

11)   Are the kids either your reason for staying and your reason for leaving?

The kids were DH's reason for staying as long as he did; they were also the reason he left. 

12)   If you left, have things gotten better for them?

MUCH better.  Grandparents notice huge improvements; also, the difference between SD11 and SD7 in terms of behavior and psychological issues is huge, seemingly due in large part to differences in uppbringing due to divorce.

13)   What questions would you have for a child expert? How could they be of most help to you?

Can I get back to you on that?


I will compile the answers and base the chapter on what you need most.


Thank you thank you thank you.

[bookworm11]

I am thrilled to know that there will soon be more available information about helping non-parents counter the effects of parental alienation and emotional abuse. This is the single most important topic to me, personally as I am watching two very young children (my nephews) already begin to show signs of stress from having UBPD/NPD mom. Thank you!



1)   How old are your children/grandchildren?
my nephews are 3 and a half and 1 and a half years old

2)   What is their situation, eg parents are married, transitioning, divorced?
50/50 custody --parents separated and working toward settlement (BPD SIL making this very difficult)

3)   Is the parent more BPD or more narcissistic, or both? If you don’t know, just say so.
SIL is absolutely both NPD and BPD...it's a toss up between the two as far as which PD is dominant

4)   What do you see as the main problem, eg criticizing, blaming, enmeshment? How bad is it from a scale of 1 to ten? Does this have to do with stuff this during the marriage, transitioning, or divorcing and coparenting?
SIL was never capable of coparenting. From the get-go she refused to listen to father, to the point where firstborn son was malnourished b/c she insisted on breast feeding against doctor's advice given that she has breast implants. She is very very enmeshed w/ 3 yo. now and when he is with father, he repeats her badmouthing about father as well as our whole side of family: "I need to take my special toys to mommy's b/c you are going to lose your house and move in with Aunty", "Mommy says you're bad b/c you have me in an unsafe car seat", "Aunty hs bad karma", "Her cooking makes my mommy sick", "Daddy is BAD!" Scale of 1 to 10: Let's just say I hope this is 10 b/c I'd hate to see it get worse.

5)   What symptoms do your children have, eg problems at school, signs of PTSD? How bad on a scale of 1 to 10?
3 yo is prone to violent tantrums w/ hitting kicking, biting, screaming. Parrots mommy's sentiments constantly. Cannot tolerate not getting his way, has extreme jealousy of younger brother and extreme impatience. 1 yo has extreme mood swings as well and has even run into walls purposely when having an angry outburst. Both boys are very needy of constant attention and unable to amuse themselves even for short periods.

6)   Have you stepped in to set limits or somehow make the situation better for the child? Why or why not?
My B is doing all he can to provide stability and love and to assure boys that he loves them. We are desperately trying to find any way we can to counter her negativity, but w/o the $10-15K required to have SIL psych evaluated, her BPD/NPD remains undiagnosed and she seems determined to poison them against B. I try to plant seeds w/ 3 yo that he can decide things for himself/ think independently, etc...but using unrelated examples like "My favorite color is red, but it's ok for you to like a different color than I like" since he generally parrots to please.

7)   If so, what have you tried that seems to have worked? Have people here given you input that works?
There is almost no information about how to deal with children this young.

8)   What have you tried that does not work?
Saying "That's not true" when he asserts that Daddy is BAD or whatever...he just stubbornly insists it is.

9)   (Was there ever an event that was the last straw and caused you to step in?
Prior to SIL being removed from family home for DV, B stepped in when she was abusive toward oldest son. She once decided to remove a mole with nitrogen--w/o consulting B and burned a nickel sized hole in his tummy--B was just arriving home when he heard son screaming bloody murder.

10)   Is there anything good about the person’s parenting?
She sets up a lot of play dates and activities for boys, but that's about all I can think of. They're clean and fed.

11)   Are the kids either your reason for staying and your reason for leaving?
They were only reason for B staying as long as he did.

12)   If you left, have things gotten better for them?

13)   What questions would you have for a child expert? How could they be of most help to you?
With very young children, what tools do we have to help them stay balanced psychologically? How can we counter extreme enmeshment? What can we say to correct lies she has told them w/o actually saying she is lying? (we do not denigrate her in front of them). How can we differentiate normal kid stages of behavior from disturbing behavior?

Our situation is complicated further since UBPD/NPD mom will not cooperate in co-parenting AT ALL, but rather seeks to undermine and invalidate everything father does. She is literally whispering in oldest son's ear up until the moment they exchange custody. There is no way to instill consistent methods of discipline or to protect boys from exposure to her toxicity. Any tools we get to help these kids would be a blessing. Thank you!

[beyondbelief]

1)   How old are your children/grandchildren?
Tweens

2)   What is their situation, eg parents are married, transitioning, divorced? 
Lengthy divorce.

3)   Is the parent more BPD or more narcissistic, or both?. 
60% B  40% N

4)   What do you see as the main problem, eg criticizing, blaming, enmeshment? How bad is it from a scale of 1 to ten?
X has many fears that she transfers to kids for instance thunderstorms.  Kids have called me terrified hiding in a closet at the sound of thunder.  X hates certain school subjects and the kids do very poorly in school on those subjects.  X does everything possible to try to keep them with her at all times and to interfere with our activities.

5)   What symptoms do your children have, eg problems at school, signs of PTSD? How bad on a scale of 1 to 10?
Generalized Anxiety Disorder, low grades in certain subjects.  Severity differs depending on how things are going.  When they are with me generally they do well.

6)   Have you stepped in to set limits or somehow make the situation better for the child? Why or why not?
X will instantly reject any ideas from me.  I initiate parent teacher conferences and the teachers tell my X things that are pretty close to what I want.  X has an aha moment, follows the suggestions for a little while then stops.

I have also discussed situation with kids' T.  Same outcome as with teachers.

7)   If so, what have you tried that seems to have worked?
See 6)

8)   What have you tried that does not work?
Asking X to do things differently, sending her links to web information plus 6)


9)   Was there ever an event that was the last straw and caused you to step in?
X started throwing things across the room.  Many of them shattered.

10)   Is there anything good about the person’s parenting?
X loves the kids and wants to be a good parent.

11)   Are the kids either your reason for staying and your reason for leaving?
I stayed for far too long for the sake of the kids.


12)   If you left, have things gotten better for them?
Yes in the sense that they do not see us arguing.  No in the sense there is no one to moderate X's behaviors.


13)   What questions would you have for a child expert? How could they be of most help to you?

How can you prevent a pwBPD from transferring their insecurities to the kids?
How can you get a pwBPD to cooperate for the sake of the kids?

[FindingMe2011]

In my new book, I will have a chapter on Helping the nonBP/NP parent. I will be interviewing some major child psychologists and people who are in a position to help. For now, I would love you to give me answers on some very specific questions WITHOUT going into a major, major story because I need to compile the answers and it will be difficult to wade through a long email to find the answer. I intend to be as practically helpful as possible and your participation will ensure I ask the right questions and get the answers to the questions you need. I am being specific to info about the children, not has much coparenting issues that affect only you—keep it focused on the kids. I don’t need this info until Feb 1, 2012


1)   How old are your children/grandchildren?
2)   What is their situation, eg parents are married, transitioning, divorced?
3)   Is the parent more BPD or more narcissistic, or both? If you don’t know, just say so.
4)   What do you see as the main problem, eg criticizing, blaming, enmeshment? How bad is it from a scale of 1 to ten? Does this have to do with stuff this during the marriage, transitioning, or divorcing and coparenting?
5)   What symptoms do your children have, eg problems at school, signs of PTSD? How bad on a scale of 1 to 10?
6)   Have you stepped in to set limits or somehow make the situation better for the child? Why or why not?
7)   If so, what have you tried that seems to have worked? Have people here given you input that works?
8)   What have you tried that does not work?
9)   (Was there ever an event that was the last straw and caused you to step in?
10)   Is there anything good about the person’s parenting?
11)   Are the kids either your reason for staying and your reason for leaving?
12)   If you left, have things gotten better for them?
13)   What questions would you have for a child expert? How could they be of most help to you?


I will compile the answers and base the chapter on what you need most.


Thank you thank you thank you.

1. two daughters 11 and 13
2. Seperated, (1yr) coming close to end of divorce,(1-26-12) we have been practicing 50-50 parenting time (against her wishes)
3.both
4.with 13 yr old- criticizing, blaming, (10 of 10), with 11 yr old, both criticizing, blaming, and alot of enmeshment. She has had major issues with her new host, which she exposed to them within a couple of weeks, of me leaving the home. Her request, she actually told the children we were divorcing a few days before me. Most of the problems were not discussed or dealt with in front of the kids ( one of the few boundaries I held). So mainly through the transition, and divorce period. I have very little contact with her these days. I call it parallel parenting. The judge has ordered me to open up telephone comunications, for medical emergency.
5. they sometimes exhibit alot of the same traits, my soon to be ex does, to some degree. They both do well at school. Both involved with athletics
6. Yes, most defenitely. The longer I have been removed from the r/s, worked on myself, and observed the whole situation for what it really is, I felt compelled to do all that I could.
7. I have noticed that when they come to me ( we do 5 days on, 2 days off ) the first day is generally spent, slowing down the crazy making. It seems to vary from week to week. Lately it has seemed to be off the charts. I for the most part, just teach them what I have learned. Its really easy to show them examples of poor behavior, with thier peers. They often bring friends over. Just enter acting with them, and thier friends, gives them events that they can relate to, and be a part of. Whether thier behavior is poor or thiers is, its something they can see very easily. Myself being mindful, under any situation, and with any subject matter, has been priceless. I have a level of respect, trust, and support for them, I have never been able to achieve. Yes this site has been my saviour.
8. Early after seperation, I know my demeanor was entirely too strong. I was too raw at the time.
9. I knew when I wasnt in the house anymore, they were going to be targets, especially 13 yr old. I was typically the barrior between her and the kids, as much as I possibly could.
10. Im not sure how to answer this. There is no physical abuse. All involved know this would not be tolerated, and dealt with accordingly. There are alot of threats. The push/ pull, typical BPD/NPD games are rampant.
11.Just one of the reasons I stayed. At the time, it was my only reason. Later discovered, many of my own issues, kept me there. I remember telling myself I would leave when the kids graduated highschool.
12. Yes its gotten better for them. I have watched them learn some coping skills. Watched them grow emotionally. Be able to start discussing just about anything with me. They are able to spot poor behavior. Learning to see thier own behavior, and most of the time we are able to do this in a calm, relaxed atmosphere.
13. What are the best methods to battle enmeshment ? I think BPD has done alot to show 11 yr old, she needs to seperate, but how can I ensure its done in a healthy way ?

[owdrs]

S17 and D14.
Married 20 years
W more bpd
She constantly criticizes, paints black, oblivious to their needs
S17 seems to fight doing well in school because it's what mom wants, D14 constantly upset at mom (maybe 2-3 on scale)
I've tried many ways to show her what she does to the kids--she only digs in more
I finally had a physical intervention when s was about 7, w raging at him and I got between and said I wouldn't ever allow this again. Since then I have tried to be around always when w is with kids.
Parenting? She pays most of the bills.
I have definitely stayed for the kids.
I wonder how to teach my kids not to take it personally, or how to show them behavior is not right.
owdrs

[BehindTheWall]

As an adult child of a uBPDm I just wanted to add my $.02.

In the relatives with BPD forum, there are occasionally threads from non-PD parents or grandparents asking for advice, e.g. http://www.bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=153007

Some brief answers based on my childhood:

2. My parents are still married (over 40 years now).

3. My mother has a lot of BPD traits but not NPD.

4. Main problems were criticizing, controlling, invalidating my thoughts/opinions/interests.  I think a lot of this happened when my mom and I were alone and my dad didn't realize the full extent of it.  I didn't realize at the time that she shouldn't have told me I was stupid, etc. so I never mentioned it to anyone.  If applicable, I suggest including a section in your book about having non-PD parents talk to the kids about what kind of parental behaviors are wrong.  A lot of us on the adult children forum had NO idea as kids that we were being emotionally/verbally abused.

5. Symptoms they should have recognized were my withdrawing and avoiding them by spending time alone in my room.  Depression and self-hatred (pretty bad from jr. high on; suicidal thoughts in high school).  I coped with my mom by learning to be silent and not express my thoughts or feelings.  My parents now say they wondered at me being "too good" as a teen and wondered why I didn't talk, ask for things, etc.

6, 7. My dad tried to deflect her rages sometimes by telling her that whatever she was mad about was his fault, not mine.  But she raged enough when he wasn't around.  What he did that helped the most was reassuring me that I wasn't going to end up like her and giving me time away from her (by driving me to lessons, etc.).  He told me once (when I'd grown up) that he hadn't wanted to have more kids because of the way my mom was, and that was the most validating thing he ever told me.

8. My dad tried to help by teaching me to be more considerate of my mom, i.e. walk on eggshells.  It was always about being more understanding of her because she had emotional problems; he almost never acknowledged that her behavior was wrong. 

10. My mom tried hard to be a good parent.  Her mom likely had BPD and was abusive and neglectful, and she tried to do better.  Both my parents went above and beyond for me financially and tried their best to make sure I had a good education.  I was never neglected or beaten.  My mom tried to make sure I felt loved and told me she loved me and complimented me and encouraged me.  If I was hurt or sick she was very nurturing.  Our house was always well-kept, there were nutritious meals, I was allowed to have friends over, she taught me how to do things, etc. (in contrast to a lot of BPD moms).

To an outside observer, she looked like a good mother.  I'm sure she even looked that way to my dad most of the time.  And I grew up thinking I was fortunate to have good parents who loved me.  OTOH, things that looked good were actually not so good.  Her love was smothering (e.g. giving me hugs because she wanted to, regardless of whether I wanted a hug or not).  My large, pretty bedroom was completely controlled by her; I couldn't put posters up, move furniture, etc.  I say this because the non-parent may also think that the PD parent's controlling and smothering behaviors are just loving concern.  My mom still excuses her controlling behaviors by saying she's "just trying to help."

[yeeter]

1)   How old are your children/grandchildren?  S7, D5, D3

2)   What is their situation, eg parents are married, transitioning, divorced?  Married

3)   Is the parent more BPD or more narcissistic, or both? If you don’t know, just say so.  uNBD - primary  uBPD - secondary

4)   What do you see as the main problem, eg criticizing, blaming, enmeshment? Extremities (everything is more severe than it should be - especially punishments when child not doing what the mother wants).  Followed by the need to avoid mistakes, and do everything perfectly.
How bad is it from a scale of 1 to ten? 8 when it happens (punishment).  9 for the constant, steady need to avoid mistake/blame and do everything perfectly.
Does this have to do with stuff this during the marriage, transitioning, or divorcing and coparenting?  No - it is a fundamental personality trait that affects the family.

5)   What symptoms do your children have, eg problems at school, signs of PTSD? How bad on a scale of 1 to 10?  Self esteem - 7 level for S7.  Low confidence and avoidance of activity for fear it wont come out perfectly - 8 for S7. 

6)   Have you stepped in to set limits or somehow make the situation better for the child? Why or why not? Sometimes.  I get creamed for it (verbal assault with accusations of not respecting wife and her parenting skills).  Other times I have just be afraid to intervene.  On a couple of the more serious ones I have worked through a MC to cause intervention.

7)   If so, what have you tried that seems to have worked? Have people here given you input that works?  Third party inclusion (MC involvment).  Involvement from key friends/family that she will listen to (her mother, another close friend).  That is about it - NOTHING ELSE CAN STOP IT IN THE MOMENT  (I am still learning the skills)

8)   What have you tried that does not work?  Direct confrontation.

9)   (Was there ever an event that was the last straw and caused you to step in?  The threat to make my D5 sleep with bloody tissues all around her pillow.  (D5 has frequent nosebleeds and wife was tired of cleaning them up).  Another time she put S7 right in between us to recite an event so she could be 'right' during an argument.  Another time she put D5 in timeout for doing something I had asked D5 to do.

10)   Is there anything good about the person’s parenting?  Absolutely!  In fact, in many many ways she is a fantastic mother (kids at top of priority list, always well cared for, sticks up for kids rights at school, etc.

11)   Are the kids either your reason for staying and your reason for leaving?  Sole reason for staying.  I genuinely believe they are better of if I am engaged with their life on a daily basis.

12)   If you left, have things gotten better for them?  N/A  If I left, I would be painted black and they would be brainwashed into believing that I am a bad or mentally sick person.  Since I genuinely believe I provide them a perspective and balance they wouldnt otherwise get - I stay.  If I were not there, there really would be more frequent blowups aimed at the kids - I can deflect/absorb many of these when there.

13)   What questions would you have for a child expert? How could they be of most help to you?  I have to balance my fear of standing up to my wife, with stepping in and protecting my children when I feel its warranted - where is the line to draw to know that its worth the price (when I stand up to her everybody pays in some way). 

Also - is it better to stay in an unhealthy environment (tense, full of stress, fear, etc) - essentially condoning it as normal, vs leaving and setting an entirely different example as a divorced family (with an ex that will rewrite history and make me look like an evil person, and minimize the contact and influence I have on my children from there on)?



I will compile the answers and base the chapter on what you need most.


Thank you thank you thank you.

[JDoe]

1)   How old are your children/grandchildren?  My nephew is 9 (his mom is uNPD/BPD).

2)   What is their situation, eg parents are married, transitioning, divorced? Parents divorced a few years ago.  S still manipulates and controls his dad (her ex-H).  They have a shared-parenting agreement, but N spends 90% of his waking hours with his dad, especially weekends, when my sister's band plays gigs.  Will not allow our mother to see my nephew unless/until she meets certain demands.  Those demands change and evolve from time to time, based on S's moods.

3)   Is the parent more BPD or more narcissistic, or both? If you don’t know, just say so. More narcissistic, but with Borderline feelings=facts behavior.

4)   What do you see as the main problem, eg criticizing, blaming, enmeshment? How bad is it from a scale of 1 to ten? Does this have to do with stuff this during the marriage, transitioning, or divorcing and coparenting?   Enmeshment and teaching him HER version of events (he told me that his uncle called Mommy a bad word (the B word) and that was wrong to say in front of a kid- during that exchange, S had dropped multiple F-bombs, but that did not even occur to him) as well as influencing him to be distant from those she has painted black, and fearful of interacting with them (his uncle, grandma).  I would say it is a 4 or 5, but have LC.

5)   What symptoms do your children have, eg problems at school, signs of PTSD? How bad on a scale of 1 to 10?  I see my nephew mistrusting or being stand-offish, but again, have LC.

6)   Have you stepped in to set limits or somehow make the situation better for the child? Why or why not?   I speak the truth in love to my nephew when he talks about what his mom says.  Remind him that he can talk to me about anything.  Support my mother, his grandmother, who is not allowed to see him (per my S).

7)   If so, what have you tried that seems to have worked? Have people here given you input that works?  He sees facts as they are when I speak truth to him or remind him that his mommy said bad words, too.

8)   What have you tried that does not work? LC

9)   Was there ever an event that was the last straw and caused you to step in?   My nephew parroting my sister's skewed version of events- cannot stand for him to believe such a bizarre twisting of facts.

10)   Is there anything good about the person’s parenting?  Hard to judge, since I do not have children.  My sister loves her son, but seems to use him as a pawn to manipulate her ex H and my mom, and sometimes as a status symbol- calling him "the ONLY grandchild" to me.  I used to think it was a good thing that she wanted him to "have choices and not to force anything on him," but that has turned in to (for the most part) no clear rules, do whatever you want, and no consequences, except for her raising her voice.

11)   Are the kids either your reason for staying and your reason for leaving? N/A

12)   If you left, have things gotten better for them? N/A

13)   What questions would you have for a child expert? How could they be of most help to you? I would ask if it is better to push my way into the situation, including re-engaging with my very difficult sister, or to just "let it be" until my nephew is older and possibly sees how disordered his mother is? 

[Randi Kreger]

Thank you everyone!