BPD BEHAVIORS: Projection

[Auspicious]

Do we point out to the BPD that they are projecting? 

Unlikely to be helpful.

Do we agree with them? Do we disagree with them?

You don't have to agree or disagree with facts (or "facts").

You can, if you choose, try to validate emotions.

e.g. "Wow, that must be scary, worrying that I might flirt with someone else."

Do we just keep quite and let them rage and project? 

Depends on what you mean by "let".

Don't just stand there and be raged at. Leave the room. Hang up the phone. End the date. Whatever.

That said, you can't stop the person from raging and projecting when you aren't there. You can't control what someone else says and does. You can control whether you listen to it, remain in the room with it, or remain on the phone with it. You can control whether you read texts or emails.

Do we wait until they are calm and try and talk to them about it?

Maybe ... personally I rarely find this helpful. I will only revisit something if I have to for practical reasons.

[mitchell16]

Im having some trouble understanding projection. My BPD used to always accuse of me of being over jealous. She is very attractive women and has the ability get men to pay attentio to her. But she was always telling me stories of men coming onto her but the stories where never outright about men flirting with her. For example, she would come in from work and tell me things like a she wasnt able to get her work done becuase this one guy was demanding her attention all day and it was hindering her work, now if I didnt say anything about it, she might add something like he could be the type of guy she was attracted to or she might tell me how he would follow her to the bathroom to talk to her. When I would finally say something she would then say your just to jealous. Or she would openly flirt with someone right in front of me, man or women and when I said it was inappropriate behavior she would the accuse me of being to jealous and not allowing her to ber herself. One time I caught her in a lie about going to meet an ex Bf behind my back ad she admitted to it, she then quickly said that she thought I was cheating her the whole time we had been in a relationship. Or if she was raging at me she would then tell me it was my fault for making her lose her temper. Is this all forms of projection?

[SmileAnyway]

Hi M16  Hi!

Some of it certainly could be but its hard to say for sure unless up close.

Some of it could just be the characters involved.  For example, being friendly or attentive to a member of the opposite sex at work does not always signal that we want to pursue a romance with them.  Men are naturally attracted to the company of women and vice versa.  A partner can appear flirtatious even when that isn't their motive.  They may just be friendly, outgoing, a peoples-person (life and soul of the party). 

It is of course very hurtful if we feel their flirting is deliberate, uncaring toward our feelings or designed to push us to one side.  Conversely though it could be an attempt (when done in our own company or reported by them to us) to make them self appear more popular (remember they have poor esteem) in the hope we will give them more attention. 

One trait of a person with BPD is that they can often make small issues into large ones - e.g. a mountain out of a molehill.

Projection is more about the pwBPD suggesting we are guilty of the traits they are actually guilty of. 

Though it is very important NOT TO ASSUME that everything they accuse you of, they have done.   

Projection can only really be identified after the event of confession or revelation.

Blaming though is a trait of BPD.  Invariably they can't apologize or recognize (at least publically) their error.  It they are unable to do this, they have to assume you/me are at fault.

In all of this remember they are mentally ill.  This is less about them deliberately subjecting you to harm and hurt, more about their condition causing them not to appreciate what they do to others.

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[soren]

Mitch.

Sounds exactly like my wife.  When we go out she is always the center of attention--whether its flirting or just craving the attention she is always getting the attention of men and women.  If i even say hello to a girl or a girl says something to me, my wife gets angry and wither accuses me of flirting or the girl of flirting. 

When she gets angry at me and rages and smashes things its always becaus I made her do it. 

She wants a divorce now and is accusing me of cheating on her last year.  She is trashing me to everyone we know, saying i was mentally abusive, controlling, a liar and cheating on her.  Which is exactly how she described her first ex-husband when I met her.  These could all be traits that describe her.  She was diagnosed bpd in 2003 and prescribed seroquel and depakote.  She took them for a few months and went off.  Now she says the only reason why she took them is because I convinced her shee needed them and the dr. that diagnosed her(someone she went for 2 years) made a wrong diagnosis. 

[SmileAnyway]

Being accused hurts...  ? but all it is is an accusation 

True friends wont form opinions until they hear both sides of the tale.  Most will simply dismiss it: "Thoust thinks the lady protests too much!" 

DETACHMENT WITH LOVE (whilst maintaining the relationship) is a must if we are to survive and not be consumed as 'victims.'

[mitchell16]

thanks for all the information. I believe she would create these problems on purpose and then accuse me of being jealous as a way of maybe finding fault in me. I used to tell her that I dont believe im anymore jealous then the average person. She would always tell me I had trust issues and I do agree with this on a certain level. But in the early stages of our relationship she lied to me and went and met her exbf and then came back to me. Prior to going to meet him she lied to me about it. During the relationship she would take these little breaks/out of town trips where she would be able to talk to me except only by tetx messsage. Of course I would ask questions about this becaus of prior experience with her. She would turn it around on me and tell me I was to controlling or suspcious or untrusting. I believe based on the situation that it would be human nature to questions thses things based on her actions, which would be pushing me away, not wanting to seeing me, phone calls became less, refusing to discuss any future plans and then she would ahve to go out of town. I guess I was wondering if this was a form of projection and because of her behavior I would become suspscious, but it would some how become my fault.

[Tracy500]

Hi everyone,

I know that projection is putting your feelings onto someone else as a way to relieve your pain, but I still can't really grasp how it happens.  Here are a couple of examples:

My boyfriend's soon to be BPDex told me "Good luck having a relationship with such a narcissist."  He is about as far from being a narcissist as a person can get, though when he told her he wanted a divorce, she told him he was being selfish.  She presents with many characteristics of a narcissist. 

She would frequently talk about how selfish he was even though he was working two jobs while she had none, cooking dinner, driving kids and taking care of the yard. 

It seems obvious that she's projecting her feelings onto him because she's selfish and a narcissist, but I can't seem to understand HOW she does it. 

I'm not explaining myself very well.  I just can't seem to make the leap from her thinking that she's selfish herself to then thinking he is as well.  It seems like there's a step missing in the process.  What makes her able to go from thinking she's selfish to thinking he is?  It seems like there must be another step in the process. 

If, deep down, I thought that I was lazy, I don't see how I would get to the point where I projected laziness on anyone else.  I can't make the connection.  I would just think I was lazy - not that anyone else was. 

Or is it something like this:  If I feel lazy, I would hate that about myself so I would want to think that everyone else was lazy as well so there would be more people in the lazy club and I wouldn't have to feel so badly about being lazy.  After all, everyone else is too.  Misery loves company.  Is that it? 

Can anyone clear this up for me? 

[mosaicbird]

Tracy, I don't know if it's possible for a "non" to truly understand it. There isn't a linear or rational step that makes it possible, but a twist. A twist/distortion that defies rational thinking. Her perception of reality and yours are two very different things.

[ennie]

Hi everyone,

I know that projection is putting your feelings onto someone else as a way to relieve your pain, but I still can't really grasp how it happens.  Here are a couple of examples:

My boyfriend's soon to be BPDex told me "Good luck having a relationship with such a narcissist."  He is about as far from being a narcissist as a person can get, though when he told her he wanted a divorce, she told him he was being selfish.  She presents with many characteristics of a narcissist. 

She would frequently talk about how selfish he was even though he was working two jobs while she had none, cooking dinner, driving kids and taking care of the yard. 

It seems obvious that she's projecting her feelings onto him because she's selfish and a narcissist, but I can't seem to understand HOW she does it. 

I'm not explaining myself very well. 

I think you are explaining yourself VERY well; the only problem I have with your post is that you are obviously dating MY DH!  He has the same ex, and she says the same things about him!  SO back off, lady! (just kidding...   ).

Yes, I have the same mystified feeling you report.  I have analyzed this a lot...   and while people say that we always are annoyed in others at things that are in ourselves, that we always project...   I think usually when people have a very difficult trait, they try to AVOID calling attention to it, by misdirection and NOT so blatantly blaming others for the same thing...   for example, if I am having a bad hair day, I do not mention hair, so maybe no one will notice my hair. Or if I am ashamed of my habit of reading mediocre murder mysteries (true), I NEVER mention it when I see someone reading a mystery...   I try to focus on ANOTHER topic...   whereas I would normally often ask what someone is reading. 

I think projection is pretty normal, but "normal" projection is feeling like someone does not like you when really you do not like them.  Confusing the source of a feeling, falsely attributing it to another person when it is our own.  It seems like we do not project behaviors as much; though kids do sometimes...   just falsely attribute something uncomfortable to another person when you did the thing...   "I saw a kid in my class hit someone today." Later, it turns out the blaming child was the one who hit. 

I think that is what shocks me about the BPD mom of my two SDs, that she thinks that she can get away with it...   that she can just externalize whatever she is done and all will be well.  That no one will catch on.  And a lot of people do not.  Even the trained experts who evaluated her after her DUI, despite LOTS of available information as to past drinking habits, at first bought her line that she never drinks, but DH drinks ALL THE TIME...   when she has been drinking and driving with the kids her whole life, and was drunk at 7 in the morning on a school day when she had the kids.  CLEARLY she has a problem; no one does this who does not have a drinking problem, at least no one I have met!  At 40 years of age...   but the counselor bought the idea that she had never done this before...   and the alcohol test confirmed she had no alcohol for 3 days, despite the fact that she had cancelled the apt. when she found out they would test for three prior days to find out if she was following the court order. 

What I am amazed by is that she gets away with projections that "normal" people would NEVER be able to pull off!  I am not sure how it works.  When I try to blame someone else for my behavior, even a little bit, it seems really obvious...   but BPD mom can project entire aspects of her life on others, and no one bats an eyelash.  very odd indeed. 

[DesertChild]

My Mom once blamed me for her bad childhood. I wasn't even born yet...   I believe this would be projection. It sounds ridiculous, but it did happen.

I wouldn't let her blame me for her bad back. I set a boundary. So she got more upset as I stayed ever more calm and then she started ranting about her Mom and Dad and how I was to blame for that. I said calmly I wasn't there.

It was odd, because I'd had a dream about her earlier where she had a thousand walls thick around her and in the middle of it there was a scared little girl. She actualized the position I'd seen in my dream of her. Fetal position hugging her head.

I realized soon after that, inside that scared little girl was a girl watching her depressed mother not get out of bed and inside that was an emptiness she wanted to fill. Having a lack of a sense of self and being unable to accept her mother, made her not want to be responsible for her own actions and unable to claim her feelings as her own, which made her project.

Assigning those hurt emotions back to an emptiness she won't claim because she doesn't know how to fill it hurts her. That's how I came to understand it. She's empty inside because ultimately she has mixed feelings about the mother that she feels abandoned her emotionally. Not being able to accept who she is has left her fairly lost and dependent on others to rescue her from her own hurt feelings, but no one on the outside can really rescue you from yourself. Thus, projection.

[ennie]

My Mom once blamed me for her bad childhood. I wasn't even born yet...   I believe this would be projection. It sounds ridiculous, but it did happen.

I wouldn't let her blame me for her bad back. I set a boundary. So she got more upset as I stayed ever more calm and then she started ranting about her Mom and Dad and how I was to blame for that. I said calmly I wasn't there.

It was odd, because I'd had a dream about her earlier where she had a thousand walls thick around her and in the middle of it there was a scared little girl. She actualized the position I'd seen in my dream of her. Fetal position hugging her head.

I realized soon after that, inside that scared little girl was a girl watching her depressed mother not get out of bed and inside that was an emptiness she wanted to fill. Having a lack of a sense of self and being unable to accept her mother, made her not want to be responsible for her own actions and unable to claim her feelings as her own, which made her project.

Assigning those hurt emotions back to an emptiness she won't claim because she doesn't know how to fill it hurts her. That's how I came to understand it. She's empty inside because ultimately she has mixed feelings about the mother that she feels abandoned her emotionally. Not being able to accept who she is has left her fairly lost and dependent on others to rescue her from her own hurt feelings, but no one on the outside can really rescue you from yourself. Thus, projection.

This is really beautiful.  I hope my SDs can one day see their mom clearly, with compassion, and good boundaries. 

[pari]

My BPD partner is tired of arguing with me.  It's funny that he sees 'Argument' in every discussion and I don't see it. Often when we discuss something and I don't agree with his point-of-view, he gets loud (trying to be heard and accepted). I don't give in and stick to my point. He has trouble handling this and gets upset and agitated (like others, he has trouble dealing with emotions and rejections). He is also a 'communication Nazi'. That means that he demands me to be perfect in communication and would get mad at me if I can't express my feelings in proper english (English is my second language). He would often have his own interpretation of my sentences. These days, his regular statements are

'I am tired of arguing with you',
'I can't talk to you because I want to solve problem and you go in circles',
'You told me X in past and now you are telling me Y. I don't believe you anymore',
'What do you want me to do? I can't win with you'

Then he calls me  back after few hours, apologizing for acting like a jerk and lot of self hatred, (now he needs my attention)

After reading this workshop, I understand better that his 'Projection' of his own feelings on me and blaming me for all the things that he has been doing. This is great workshop. 

 

[crazylife]

So threatening me with all my "cheating" is a projections. His threats are he will bring it up  to the lawyers if I file for divorce. Swears he has proof.. not a fact at all. I did text with people when he wouldnt speak to me for 2 years..Bottom line for me is I have lost everything due to not setting boundries and have ZERO to lose, even if I was cheating..which I am not.

[Pou]

My biggest concern about BPD and NPDs is that how will the truth can ever be tease out in the court of law?  I mean, I used to be a firm believer that "where there is smoke, there is fire." ...  but now, I am a firmly believer of that when there seems to be fire, there may not be a fire...  I mean, my world has turn up side down since I realize my wife is a NPD.  It seems in personality disorder's world, projection and gaslighting are so rampant that if any issues ever end up in court ...  how will anything be resolved easily?  I guess this is the reason why we needed lawyers, but then sometimes I think lawyers play this game too to their favor.  It seems if you let a NPD/BPD into your life, then it is guaranteed that you are pretty much screwed for the rest of your life unless you find a peaceful and safe way out.

[ennie]

My biggest concern about BPD and NPDs is that how will the truth can ever be tease out in the court of law?  I mean, I used to be a firm believer that "where there is smoke, there is fire." ...  but now, I am a firmly believer of that when there seems to be fire, there may not be a fire...  I mean, my world has turn up side down since I realize my wife is a NPD.  It seems in personality disorder's world, projection and gaslighting are so rampant that if any issues ever end up in court ...  how will anything be resolved easily?  I guess this is the reason why we needed lawyers, but then sometimes I think lawyers play this game too to their favor.  It seems if you let a NPD/BPD into your life, then it is guaranteed that you are pretty much screwed for the rest of your life unless you find a peaceful and safe way out.

I agree, I think the adversarial legal system is terrible at dealing effectively with these folks and kids caught in that web of misinformation.  At the same time, I think if our court really understood how devious and bad my SD's BPD mom really is, they would grant only supervised visitation...  and the result would probably be that mom would abandon them by suicide or leaving, and that would be terribly painful for them.  So we are stuck with 50/50, but I am not sure that is the worst option around.  People who really get who BPD mom is usually abandon and reject her, and want nothing to do with her...  which is not always the best basis for a decision.  It is such a confusing thing.  I think the best for my SDs would be if DH had fought for and got full custody when the kids were 2 and 6, when they split up...  but given that he did not, they have all this stuff to work out and we help them to do it.  Not sure what it would be like if mom just disappeared, instead of them being able to see her as they grow up and learn what is hard for them about her.   

At any rate, the projection is enormously challenging in court, but is worse when the kids parrot it to DH and I. 

[traddad]

Exactly ... the problem with that stuff is that most people naturally assume "where there's smoke, there's fire, or at least a cigarette". They figure there must be something to the allegations, or maybe you're both partially at fault, etc.

Yeah, this is the heart of it.  This is why therapy isn't working for the wife and I.   People always try to judge the truth of something from the emotional response they see in front of them. We all do this - that's how we can try and tell when someone is lying - we try and see whether their body language, their expression and general demeanor matches the things we are being told.

I have the impression that with BPD, though, there are no 'tell tale signs', because they truly believe, at that moment, the things they are saying.  My wife is completely convincing when she describes how terrible I am to her.  She's so convincing, she even convinces me sometimes, and I was there. How much more convincing must it seem to others that weren't there?  I think this is what people are referring to when they talk about the 'Reality Distortion Field' around BPDs - their emotional response is so powerful that it convinces the people around them to doubt their own judgement.

You can try and combat that with facts, which has tended to be my preference, but that often doesn't work out well either. In my experience most people have less interest in or tolerance for lists of facts, or examples of apparent contradictions, than they do in the emotional state of others.  We somehow feel we are in danger of being bamboozled by tricky sets of words designed for precisely that purpose, and that the 'truth' lies more in the way the people act and behave. I think that's normal for humans, as we are a social species.  But with BPD, it leads you exactly down the wrong path, because you can't trust their emotional response.

For me, one of the biggest indicators that something is not quite right is the rapid shifting of the BPD's emotions.  If someone experiences big emotional trauma, one would normally expect continuing consequences - low mood, loss of appetite, irritation, some ongoing indication they've been through a really tough time.  With my wife, I have seen her expressing seemingly genuine distress and completely convincing emotional trauma, and then twenty minutes later completely normal, upbeat, no-one would imagine there's anything wrong with her life.

What's more interesting is that from her point of view, that behaviour is entirely normal. When she sees someone else experiencing continued trauma (grief, low mood, irritation etc) she feels that they are abnormal, and just need to 'get over' their experience, as she does.  That sort of accounts for the lack of empathy for others - she somehow feels other people are just 'wallowing in it', and just need to shift their mood, as she does, in order to carry on with life.