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Hello all,

My boyfriend uBPD has arranged a holiday with his ex f-buddy and their children (arranged during a nc phase). He knows I am very hurt as she consistantly tries to break us up as she is in love with him. He triangulates us. The background is here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=195765.0

After constant rows about this I have decided to take myself out of the triangle and have not mentioned her for a week and a half and we have continued to spend lots of time together. Now I am in the situaton where I don't know what is happening ie - is he still going alone with her?  am I going too? ( ) or is he going alone? Its coming up in the next two weeks and much as I want to be out of the triangle I also need to know what's going on. The r/s feels quite false at the moment as the elephant in the room is being ignored. I did think that by taking myself out of the triangle he would come to his own conclusions. I also thought that I would then be able to choose how I react to whatever he freely decides to do. It would give me a good idea of whether this man can be trusted with my heart and feelings. Unfortunately he appears to be either burying his head in the sand (he doesnt want to upset her or me) or else he thinks it has been resolved in some way (probably by him thinking I have accepted his holiday with her)... .  

It's a boundary situation for me too, so very volatile.

How do you think I should approach having this conversation and stating my boundaries?

Thanks guys... .  :-)

  connect~~I feel for you on this one.  It certainly would be difficult to accept as it sounds as though he wants to go away with this woman and no matter what you say or do, it's ultimately his decision.  Placing you in the position of making the decision is unfair to say the least. 

I read back over your initial post and the responses.  The one thing I can't seem to find is a clear and concise boundary.  What exactly is the boundary you've established?  The boundary is essentially for you... .  not him.  Unless you have a clear boundary, you cannot expect him to understand it.  Let me give you an example... .  

My bf and his son have stayed up all hours of the night for the past month (we're renovating our house and his son is helping) partying like teenagers making a huge mess and creating such a commotion that it wakes me in the middle of the night.  My 1st boundary is that I will not clean up the messes they leave because that is not my responsibility.  My 2nd boundary is not to be wakened in the night.  If they choose to stay up and party, I'll be spending the nights that his son is here at my friend's house so I can be rested for work in the morning.  I'm not asking my bf to change his behavior nor am I making threats.  Ultimatums are often challenged as they are too threatening and put people (even non-BPD's) on the defensive. 

At any rate... .  did you express a boundary in this, or did you just tell him that it's hurtful... .  because he most likely will not understand that. 

Hi connect.

First, it's great that you recognize thisis triggering for you and will be a difficult task.  So some preparation and a structured approach is a good idea.  And be readyto just take a time out when you feel your own emotions boiling over (it's pretty likely to happen)

Maybe review DEaRMAN and SET, which might be useful delivery structures.

As I understand it, the biggest issue is that he is going on vacation with an ex lover.

It's his choice.  He is allowed (after all it's his life)

What will YOU do if he goes?

I know you care.  And can request that he not.  But if he does, what will you do?

Knowing the answer to this will make the communication easy.  That's the great thing about boundaries.  Once you have them really clearly defined for yourself, and own them, they become easier.  And you only need to tell him once.  Then if he violates, you just follow through... .  

Less is more. You state you cant have a RS with 3 involved. If this happens you are done (if thats how you feel).  It is self explanatory, no need to soften it nor explain it. No trial periods, no negotiations or compromises.

Hi there,

I have been following your story and I really feel for you.  I can relate, not to your exact situation, but to this type of situation.  I can hear the hurt  in what you write.  I would be peeved too!  However, I think looking at it as a confrontation will infuse the situation with a lot of volatility.  I have wanted to "confront" my uBPD h and usually I can only get out the first few words of my point and he totally shuts me down.  So the less is more advice would be especially helpful in this situation.  It seems it would be best for you to have a very clear boundary in place about this.  He does this, you do that. This is your best protection for yourself.

As far as needing to know, absolutely you need to know.  Just ask him.  Get your answer.  You have already decided what your boundary is, so then you state it and act on it.  

If you don't get a straight answer, well that itself is an answer.    


You can only go off of  what you know and what you have in front of you.  Base your decisions and opinions on the actions you can see clearly.  

I think when you really decide for yourself what your boundary is and that you will follow through, no matter what, you will feel much better (in a way).  It won't be easy, but you will feel empowered!

Good luck and keep us all posted!

Hi everyone 

Thanks for your replies and advice. I will definately be taking heed of what you say.

The good news is that last night he approached me on the subject and said it has been eating him up and he wants to talk about what to do. We have decided this conversation will happen when we have lots of time this weekend - there will be no alcohol and no shouting and we will discuss it calmly.

The bad news is he has been withholding sex (he has been ill though but some of this is probably over egged)

Am still nervous as it is so volatile for us both.

So I will let you know how it goes... .  

Thanks

You are very much in the same type of situation I have been in.

Basically your partner is wanting to do something that is not congruent with a trusted and loving relationship.

He just wants to do what he feels like and if you are saying no, he begins to emotionally leverage you to scare you into compliance.

That he feels "troubled" and wants to talk is a sign of something. Think to yourself what you know of this man and base your expectations of what that conversation will be, in light of that.

From my own situation, I would personally be expecting the conversation to ramble around how he wants you to step it up and offer more trust and validate to him that it really is ok for him to go on vacation with his friend.

You expressions of discomfort are telling you something. I don't really like to say this, but this guy is kicking up a lot of fog speak and trying to get you to twist around your own instincts and perceptions and values for his benefit.  Crazy talk, crazy making.

 I am sorry, I know your heart has been in this, but the first person who you need to be taking care of here is YOU. Please.

I would tell him how you feel and that you do not want him to go. Tell him that he is setting unstability in the relationship because the tables could turn someday and you would expect then the same consideration from him. They never seem to think of those consequences and believe me when the tables turn, they don't like it.

Hi there,

Here's my update. Am exhausted and have had 4 hours sleep. Was late for work, nearly crashed, went through a red light and left my handbag at his place... Crazy making is what this is.

Benny 2 - Yes - they don't like it when the tables are turned - he expects me to put up with behaviour that he would never accept from me.

Elemental - well -  thanks for your care - really appreciated  . From your guess at how the conversation went I can only assume that you were in the room with us... .  You got it spot on. It was what I expected to happen as well. We had the chat last night for hours. He was basically looking for permission from me to go on holiday with this other woman. He played the low "its for my child" card (and her children) I reminded him that if he were really thinking about his child he would be more interested in building a solid base relationship with me as a family life for his child long term rather then a week away with her and subsequently no relationship with me.  I set out my boundaries very clearly and waited for the backlash. I said if he chose to go away with her for a week then I would not be in the relationship on his return. I explained my reasons which were that it is unacceptable in a relationship and that this holiday girl who is in love with him will have no respect for my relationship with him. I also said that by accepting this treatment I am sending him a signal that he can treat also me with no respect.

He maintains that he still wants the holiday with her for his son, to have a laugh and have a week off.

As soon as I said I would leave him if this happened he completely focused on it and it triggered the "leave her before she leaves me" routine. He suggested that we end our relationship now and then he has the holiday in 2 weeks and we get back together after the holiday. What the heck.

We have left it unresolved at the moment. Will post more in a minute as computer playing up...

contd... .  

He agreed that what he was asking of me was completely unacceptable and that he would dump me if I did the same thing. We have both had baggage to sort out to get in this relationship (I left my home for him) and he says he wants to draw a line under all of that but only AFTER the holiday. He also said at one point he ddnt believe I would leave him due to the holiday and assumed I would instead phone him every day on his trip. I told him to think again and there would be no phone calls as I wouldnt be chasing dead meat.

We kept the conversation calm and took turns talking with rules about no shouting and having breaks when needed etc.

He keeps saying this is for his son and I think that is so low. He also said he doesnt want me to control him and things are moving too fast.

He did say he was standing by his decision to go with her. I had initially been invited so I suggested me going as a way to stop the relationship ending. He did all he could to wiggle out of it (there may be no spaces on the site - I said lets go online and look now - he refused) he then admitted he didnt want me there because it would be too wierd going on holiday with two women that fancy him (nice that thats the category I fit in rather than girlfriend) He didnt want us to argue as it would ""spoil his holiday""

Talks are still ongoing and its been left as unresolved. This morning he apologised for his behaviour but didnt quantify in what capacity the apology was meant in.

I anticipate he will cancel us seeing each other tonight under the guise of him being too ill.

Wish me luck with this one.

Just wanted to add...

He had said to me a month ago he would start to phase her out of his life (although the trip was booked at this point) he stopped seeing her so much on playdates an she went crazy at him and sent him abusive text messages. He managed this "phasing out for 2 weeks" now he sees her twice a week the same as before. He maintains that he wants the holiday with her and THEN he will phase her out. At one point (after I said I would leave him over this and he was trying to hurt me) he said that the bond of friendship with her (his ex f-buddy for goodness sake )  may be greater than the relationship bond with me. Really! You dont say! I hadnt noticed 

Seeing this all written down looks like someone else wrote it - not me - someone with no self esteem... what's happened to me.

I love him but he doesnt seem to be able to have a relationship. I feel so lost.

Good luck connect!

Sounds like you are doing a great job at maintaining your boundaries, while managing the difficult conversation and not letting it escalate into raging.

(and just to state the obvious - breaking up, with the intent on getting back together in two weeks after seeing someone else, isnt exactly breaking up).

A great insight here:  "I love him but he doesnt seem to be able to have a relationship."

That sums up many of the relationships here.  And is accurate.  (and not necessarily how you would like it to be, but it still is the way it is)

Tough stuff - hang in there!  

I know what you mean connect. I have taken a look at myself and wondered what has happened to me. I have left relationships, even marriage for lesser issues. Even my kids have asked me, what kind of hold does he have on you. I can't answer that. Why do I keep letting him back in my life? Why do I panic when I fear something is not right? This is not me and when did I go? Mostly, how do I get myself back.

I think this ^ is putting it mildly. It sounds like what he wants is to "break up" for the time he's on holiday so that he can do whatever he wants with this woman without feeling guilty - because, you know, you and he aren't together anymore. What? NO. I think that's even worse than not breaking up and him still going. It amazes me (although it doesn't surprise me) that he thinks this is a viable option.

And I want to chime in on congratulating you on sticking to your boundaries. You're doing a great job in a really tough situation!  |iiii

Hello.

Thanks guys - its so supportive to speak to people who understand.

Yeeter -Thanks for what you said about boundaries - its good to hear and I agree that it's not a proper break up if he has a planned re-engagement date.

Benny2 - You are obviously feeling the same as me (I have been reading your post too) Today my friend also said to me "What hold does he have over you? I know you love him and that's a powerful thing but what are you getting out of this?" I also couldnt answer. This is where the addiction to the relationship comes in I suppose... .  

Arabella - Thanks for your encouragement too - I also think that the break up first, back together option (only on the table for a moment but he still said it) is a guilt free way of doing what he likes. He obviously thinks that there will be things going on he would have to hide from me on that trip. I dont believe he is sleeping with her but he has an inappropriate intimate relationship with her. He said to me "you think I should be building a family with you and not her and her children" so it shows he understands. Will write more in a minute...

I left a very long term relationship (and my home) to be with him and it took me longer to do then he wanted. I did leave my home within the timescale we agreed but he says I took too long. This feels like punishment for that. I suggested this to him and he said maybe the holiday was some sort of punishment but he didnt know.

He also engineered a row before he went away on a stag do so it appears to be a pattern with him. I went away to a funeral for a night recently and he hated that - I kept in lots of contact due to his abandonment issues but he barely answered my messages and was cold when I came back. Yesterday he also made comments about why does anyone love him - this morning he is painting himself black and worthless I think so the withdrawal is on its way.

He is going to do this no matter what you say. His mind is working the way my BPD's mind works. They sort of work out in their heads some effed up twisted explanation that IF that explanation was healthy, would validate their hurtful actions.

Problem is, their explanation is not healthy thinking. He is not talking to you to work out a mutually acceptable course of actions, ie, healthy and loving intentions. He is trying to leverage your feelings for him and wear you down. Even putting you in the same category as her ( a girl who fanices him, rather than his girlfriend, glad you spotted that) and keep you off balance by telling you that you are not trusted, so HE has doubts and as HE has doubts and you haven't "proved" yourself, HE is all scared and doing things HE might not otherwise do.

God, I know the whole comedy routine.

I predict now he will "break up", go on his trip and when he comes back, he will try sucking you back in.

I know you are torn. Best advice I can give is the advice I should take: Let him go off on his vacation and while he is gone, use that time to emotionally detach and shift your life in a different direction where your own happiness and stability do not rely on him for any reason.

I am sorry, I know how confusing and hurtful it is. Boy do I.  

Hey Elemental - I read your post and I though "wow - we must be going out with the same man!" Then I realised that in a BPD world there's every chance that we are  lol

So ours are mirror images of each other by all accounts. I saw mine for a few hours earlier. He starting admitting blame but then turned the conversation to MY faults and how he hasnt been able to "fully" trust me properly. He carefully explained that THAT is the rason that he has been forced to make this holiday decision and carry it through. My so called controlling issues came up. I explained my thoughts and boundaries again. He started ranting and then left the house. I just left him to that. He came back and insisted the holiday would go ahead so he can have fun and have a laugh and a week off. Detachment came to my rescue. I told him that he can do EXACTLY what he wants and see who he wants as I have no control over his actions. I said that I want to see how he acts with no guidence and prompting from me and I can judge our compatability on core values. I repeated he can do whatever he chooses to do. This took the wind out of his sails. He had no way of raging at me as he wanted - no-one to blame.

The shift then was as if he had "won" that is my only issue with this detachment process. He seems to think I have given in to this. He looked like he couldnt believe his luck actually. He tried to go back to normal with me but then raised the holiday again and said we still need to think about it. He said "I love living with you" I have left him for a couple of hours and will go back later. I will let him dig his own pit. I will let him have his holiday and I have no doubt that I will be a different person when he comes back and not available to him anymore - that is starting already, I can feel it.

I am not finishing with him now as I am giving him an opportunity to fully feel the duplicity/guilt of his actions without me to rage at and see if he does anything to change it. Also if our relationship ends I want it to be directly after the holiday so he gets the connection. My mind will not allow me to love him when he is away with this woman - it will switch off to him as this has happened to me before with other relationships (just earlier stages with them) Up until then I dont know how I will be but my concern for his feelings has diminished about 70% already. Sex is feeling pretty much off the agenda as does cooking him dinner and looking after him. I am out tonight and have arranged to go out with friends on Wednesday and Saturday night. He can do as he chooses and I can react how I choose.

Morning,

Had a new bit of behaviour last night so need some pointers...

I went back there last night and he said "I'm sorry, she's a part of my life, I will phase her out after the holiday". Just sounded like hot air to me. He had a few glasses of wine and then started to get really upset saying "if I were you I would dump me too" and trying to touch and engage with me. He was literally hanging his head in shame and feeling the full force of what he had done. This is a good thing.

My attitude now is not to expect anything from him. I am present but detached and have stopped helping in his house and no cuddling. I am not being mean - I just don't feel like doing these things.

I am going to try to get him into see my T on Friday too.

So what behaviours can I expect now he is in full shame mode? I've not seen it before and would like to be ready... .  

Thanks!

Ugh.

Try to stay detached from this.

Let him do whatever, don't get into twisty debates. Don't discuss for more than the 2 minutes it takes to restate your boundary.

The problem with the shame mode, is, you will likely be blamed for it. Possibly painted black. Bad mommy.  If not now, possibly later. You may be seen as the punitive parent forcing him to keep his hand out of the cookie jar. Sigh.

Honestly, it may be a good idea to have some distance regardless of what he ends up doing, certainly take some emotional distance. He may act like a 5 yr old. Make sure you are taking very good care of yourself. Stay away from 4 hour discussions. Nothing takes 4 hours, and it ends up wearing you down, like a POW interrogation. Really, try to keep it

short and simple, let him be responsible for his choices, the marathon talks make him feel

like you are a co creator in his poor decisions and his bad feelings.

Great advice. 

Its very possible he will start telling you things to get you to hang around.  On the one hand, he has been very up front about what he wants.  But as he realizes thats not going to get it for him, he may start behaving more covertly.  My guess is the shame part wont last indefinitely, and he may even at some point get angry at you for him not being able to get what he wants.

Dont participate in long drawn out dialog on it, because you have already stated your boundary.  Just live it.  He has to decide for himself what he will do.

Have you made a plan of action for when he does take the holiday with his friend?  (it sounds like this is still the expectation... .  ?)

In the meantime, take care of yourself!  Schedule a regular series of outings with friends, family, etc.  Sign up for a class, or some other activity with interaction with others.

Hi,

Yesterday he literaly drove me to the end of my tether. I actually thought I was going insane.

Maybeso-Your advice is spot on and mirrors exactly how I have been trying to approach this. Also you were right about me being painted black after the shame mode. I aslo agree that me participating in the debates makes him think I am co-creator in his poor decisions.

Yeeter-Yes I dont want to engage in long debates and I havent got a plan of action yet but will work on that now.

So the update is that since "shame mode" he has been doing EVERYTHING he can to cause an arguement with me. He is goading me at every opportunity and being extremly moody. I have had three boats of this and as I knew what he was doing I refused to be drawn into a row or discuss the subject. This was again making him have to face his own demons and he didnt like it one little bit. I believe he wants us to have a huge row so that he can either a) Break up us up pre-holiday to alleviate his guilt or b) use the rows as justification for his bad decision. It was really hard for me though as I am so angry.

... .  will continue in a min as computer playing up... .  

Yesterday was a bad day. He was raging at me in the morning - I didnt engage and was proud of myself. His friends came over and I overheard him telling them that he was going away for a week. I saw red - I was FURIOUS - I slammed a door (but luckily he didnt hear) I then had lots of stressful things of my own to sort out - money and a redundancy job situation and an interview. I also knew was seeing his "friend" for the afternoon with their children and he was very vague about his plans for the day when I asked him.

I saw him at the end of the day and he started provoking me. He said he didnt know if he wanted me to sleep there tonight as I kept him up too late. I flipped. He is lucky I am even TALKING to him at the moment. He should be doing everything to proove he loves me at the moment not telling me to sleep elsewhere.

As I had engaged in his row the gloves were off - he delivered the best bit of twisting I have ever heard. He got out his phone and googled something - he showed me - it was the definition of "emotional blackmail" He said THAT is what I am doing to him.

I was distraught and crying. He said he would only continue to see me now if I promised that when he returns from his holiday I will still be his girlfriend and not finish the relationship as I had stated.

CRAZY CRAZY CRAZY S**T

Somehow I got out of directly answering this. I went out with a friend for the evening, came back and spent the night. I avoided any deep conversation with him.

Today I feel as if I have no emotions left in me (which is a relief). Yesterday he drove me to the edge. I was doubting my sanity.

He is trying to smash my boundary. I know however that it is my boundary and not his to destroy. The thing is that I am so mucked up now in my head. I dont want to lose him and I heard myself yesterday telling him that all I had ever done was love him and show him that, and I was almost begging him to let me stay the night. I disgusted myself.

Whatever happens though - however weak I feel now (I feel very weak and am doubting myself on this boundary) I do know that if he goes away with her that my view and trust  of him will be so damaged that I cant see myself coming back from it. But at the same time I am thinking that my boundary is now wrong but I also know that it isnt.

He says he will see my T tomorrow (but he keeps retracting that to goad me) so I really hope he will. Will keep it calm til then and see if she can get through to him. Last hope. I cant do it.

Talk about emotional blackmail!     I know it's difficult, but I'd encourage you to stick to your guns on the boundary~~you'll be personally empowered by it and feel better in the long run.

This says it all connect.   

I totally get how messed up your own thinking can be.  Read about FOG.

Then read about extinction bursts.  Thats what is happening.

And know:  THE BOUNDARY YOU HAVE SET IS A VERY REASONABLE AND FAIR ONE!

I just thought I would state that for you, as an unbiased outside third party (sometimes this helped me when my mind was muddled, for someone outside the situation to help ground me.

He is going to make you look like the 'bad guy' in all this.  At least to the people that will listen to his version (and there will be some, that is just reality).  Dont let it sway you.  Dont cave on the boundary - at this stage to do so would be damaging for all future boundaries (intermittent reinforcement!).  You have stated a very clear and rational boundary.  Live it!  As Rocky says, you will be personally empowered and feel better in the long run.

hugs and more hugs.  Really hard to get through the moment - read some of the stories here about others who have been faced with the exact same turning point.  It IS a turning point - the choice of continuing in an unfair and unbalance relationship which is unhealthy long term, or choosing a different path and only going forward 'if' the relationship can be a healthy one (not 'wishing' for it, but demanding it and being willing to walk away if its not - thus respecting yourself)

 

Yup, I had a feeling he would go even more sideways; I unfortunately dealt with this stuff for a long time.

The boundary is perfectly reasonable.

He wants his cake and eat it, too. His need will be unreasonable, and very strong, similar to an addiction. This other woman provides mirroring that he needs like a drug, and you are taking it away, and threatening to take his main mirroring supply away, too. This is very deep, addictive, compulsive stuff. It won't just go away because you won a battle, or not.

I did this routine for 5 years with an otherwise very nice, high functioning, man. We co parented his two kids together. His need for mirroring with other women, whether old gf's or

someone new... .  was profound. It was like arguing with an alcoholic, but, your own ego gets

put in the blender cause it's not a bottle of booze, it's other women!

Unless you both have an agreed upon open relationship, his entitled and distorted thought

that his significant other will be ok with him leaving  to go on holiday with an ex gf or f-

buddy or any woman... .  is just nuts.

I don't know anyone who would be ok with that.

He has a right to do as he pleases. And, we all experience consequences to our decisions

and behaviors. The most natural consequence to his behavior... .  Is that you loose your

committed relationship if you aren't committed. This is just natural. Cause and affect.

What you have to decide is if you are really serious about your own reasonable boundary.

Boundaries aren't fun... .  they are hard work, but they are necessary if your own well being

and sanity and self respect are important to you... .  they should be! The more you debate with him, the more you telegraph that you arent totally sure about your boundary. The boundary

really isn't about him, it's about you. The hard part is taking care of ourselves when a

person sadly refuses to respect a reasonable boundary. Then we have our own internal

battle to fight, am I strong enough to risk grieving a loss ... .  Or is the risk of loss too great

and I refuse to grieve it, so I will lower the boundary to alleviate my suffering. The battle is really with you, not him. Fighting with him is a distraction.

If we lower the boundary on important issues, we don't really alleviate our suffering, we just temporarily defer it. This is a choice.  Its like taking out a very bad emotional loan... You will paying it back for a long, long time.  If you soften your boundary, he has every right to know that you will tolerate holidays with ex F buddies . You may just once a year have a break from your relationship with him while he holidays with her or the next gal.

Maybe that's okay in the larger scheme of things? Maybe there's enough good the rest of the year? It's a choice. Be in touch with your freedom to choose, no matter what.

Distance is needed here. He is spinning, this is his distorted thoughts playing out. Keep grounded in yourself. You can't fix him or control him, only yourself.

I just wanted to point out, which I am sure you realized, that this is control and manipulation.  He is trying to put himself in a one up position where he is in control.  How they manage to do this is beyond me.  They have special training or something.  It is SKILLFUL MANIPULATION.  Sometimes these are skills I wish I had (well, not really!). 


Please don't beat yourself up over this.  We, I'm sure, have all been there.   A lot of times you can't see what is happening and how you are being manipulated until you are a little out of the situation and your own head has time to clear.  I can't tell you the times when I have "begged" for something and he has been given all the power.  Then later I think about it when I am calm and I think, "hey, wait a minute."  Then when the issue isn't done for me, he doesn't understand because in the moment he thought he had "won."

I know it's been said before, but some space and detachment would do you some wonders here.  Do you live together?  It seems as though he is going to keep on you until you give in.  He wants to go on this vacation guilt free, you are correct there.  He will probably continue to push it and push it, as you have seen, until he gets what he wants.  A phase of just leaving him to it might be what is needed.  Maybe there would be time for him to figure out you are serious about this before he actually goes.  This could also give you some much needed time to clear your head and see what is happening and if it's worth it to you. 

I also wanted to point out, which it took me a long time to get here, being alone without an so couldn't be more lonely than being with an so who so blatantly disregards your needs.  There IS more to life than this! Sending you a big hug and loads of emotional support!

MaybeSo - that was probably the best description of how boundaries work that I've come across so far. It was what I needed to read. Thank you!

connect - emotional blackmail, huh? That is a classic example of projection. Wow. There's some great advice here and it sounds like you know what's going on - just keep being true to yourself! If you need to stay somewhere else for a few days to avoid the arguments, do that. He's desperate to make this your fault so the gaslighting is only going to escalate. Detach with love and remember - it is NOT YOU, it's him. 

Yes, he is  the one doing the emotional blackmail.

Emotional blackmail works best... .  hell, any blackmail works best... .  when the person doing it knows or strongly suspects they have something on us.

If you partner knows or suspects you are unwilling to loose the relationship no matter what... .  

they are going to leverage that.  Why wouldn't they?  A kid would leverage that with a parent... .  and we are pretty much talking about the same dynamics here.

So... .  the only way it doens't work is when they don't have something on us.

That means... .  we need to be strong enough to back up the boundary if needed.  If we aren't, then yes, we are suseptible to emotional blackmail.  Think of him as a kid having a temper tantrum and a kids mentality, but with the sophistication of an adult  in terms of tactics and verbal pursuasion etc...  He's just a big kid trying to make something that isn't workable... .  work.  

A corrective expereince would likely do him some good.  I vote strongly for helping him to have a corrective expereince by maintaing your own boundary.  

But, I also understand that this stuff is super tuff to do.  

By the way, Connect... .  this has NOTHING at all to do with you being a good gf or worthy of love or anything of that nuture AT ALL.  You are all those things.  He is doing this because it's what he does... .  This has really nothing at all to do with you or your value as a partner to him  AT ALL.

You may want to also, at some point, attempt to emotionally validate what it is he feels he needs or gets from this. 

Emotionally validating him around whatever he feels he needs from doing this, doesn't mean agreeing with him or waffeling on a boundary.  It means just letting him know you understand what his need is, that it is understandable, even if it is still not something you can agree to live with in your own life.

If he feels like you really get what his need is, or why this is so important to him (everyone wants to feel liked, important, freedom etc.,)... .  he may... .  MAY calm down and feel less of a need to dig his heals in. 

I suspect for him this may represent:

a break from routine, a sense of freedom, fun, an experince that is different than his usual experience, that is makes him feel good that this woman likes him so much, it makes him feel needed, desirable, like he's a swell guy... .  or maybe something else... .  you know him... .  what do you think the underlying need is?  alot of this is addiction related... .  but emotional validation helps him to get clear on what he's doing. If he just argues with you... he doens't have to get clear, he can just stay in victim mode.

if you can emotionally validate that liking or wanting those things are normal and understandable, and you get that his need is valid, and that it's not the need that's invalid, it's  just the way he's going about getting the need met ... .  that doesn't fit into your own value system... .  he may calm down.  I always found it very hard to emotionally validate stuff that I found especially threatening or painful... .  but these realtionship are really tuff. 

Emotional validation can be very soothing, and it helps people to have to get clear on their stuff. It doesn't mean tolerating abuse.  You still have to own your own boundaries.

It certainly won't do any harm.

HI guys,

YOu dont know how much your support is helping me at the moment. I will write a longer reply as soon as I can. Thank you all so much

I am right in the midst of this at the moment... .  He is due to see my T in a few hours and I am having to stay around him to make sure it happens. Lots to report when I have time...

In the meantime I think my concern is that this is the first boundary I have set and unfotunately if he breaks it the relationship is over. Its hard and makes me worry I have gone in too big on this boundary but I fail to see how I can welcome him back after the week of hell he will put me through in two weeks time when he is away with this girl.

Am still checking in all the time and reading your posts and will post myself asap

Thank you x

It is indeed hard.  But the dynamic of setting boundaries that you dont really enforce, simply trains him that you will cave.

You did the upfront work and evaluation of what the boundary really is for you.  It was thoughtful and reasonable.  :)ont replay or second guess this - just live it and follow through with it.  The outcome will be, what it is.  But you will feel better for valuing your own self enough to draw the lines on how you will allow other people to treat you.

Don't doubt your boundary. You went 'big' on it because it IS a big deal. This isn't some minor behaviour or quirk that annoys you - this is fundamental to your beliefs and to your relationship. This is a deal-breaker, so you treat it as such. That's all there is to it. If you don't have an open relationship then this vacation with another woman is the ultimate type of betrayal - especially when you have made your feelings so abundantly clear.

If he chooses to go, he is choosing: to cheat on you (at least emotionally, and you'll always wonder about more), to willfully injure/disregard your emotional well-being, to risk/throw away his relationship with you (what does that say about its priority in his life?), to put another woman's demands ahead of your own, to invalidate an essential part of your beliefs, and to avoid his own issues regardless of consequences (and there's little long-term hope for someone who does this).

I don't want to be negative, or overly dramatic, but I also don't want to see you doubt yourself regarding this boundary. You are being true to yourself. You are doing the right thing!

Yup, this is a lifestyle and life-value issue; so it is big. It's not about bathroom etiquette or something less impacting on your life.

Hello,

Thank you very much    - you are all so right.

Its hard to put on long posts as am at his house but I am checking in daily for your support.

He went to the councillor and she gave him what for. She told him it was unlikely I would be waiting for him on his return and questioned the signals he was sending to me and to the ex f-buddy/friend. She made him face up to his choice. He didnt enjoy it as I know he argued with her at one point over childcare etc and said to me she was "standard issue, od school" so it was uncomfortable for him. He did tell me everything they discussed though. He still seemd to be seeking my permission for the holiday (and checking I wouldnt leave him) in the evening so I calmly said "You can do what you choose to do. I will not however give you my permission and it is not allright with me. I will obviously have strong reactions to this whether you like that or not"

I am now going out for the day and leaving him to it. Hopefully he will think about what the councillor said. I know I have thought about it enough (4am was the last time... .  )

Will check in soon - thanks :-)

BTW Maybeso - I took your advice and validated his need for the holiday last night without agreeing to it - rest, kids, break etc including the part about how there must also be an attraction in having a girl who loves you (other then your girlfriend) waiting on you hand and foot and attempting seduction. It did keep him calm and was a new approach. I may ask him about relationship difficulties he has had in the past and ask him if he thinks he has some issues in this area. (but without talking about the holiday)

Thanks :-)

Hi connect

Ugh, not fun to be facing this madness.  Please be careful about stepping into 'therapist territory' with him.  You are his girlfriend/lover, not his psyche doc.  Keep the focus on yourself and your values, what's important to you.  Once we step over into their brain things get all fogged up.  He obviously has issues, that's a given.  No matter what you ask or how it's phrased, it's still stepping over into his territory/his stuff.  Stay centered on yourself and what you want out of a relationship.

I'm very sorry that this is even an issue.  It is one to be taken seriously.  Take yourself seriously by not letting his ridiculousness about it sway what's important to you.  If you don't take yourself seriously, he won't either.

Detach and let go... .   

Hi all,

Thanks again for everything you have all said... . :-)

Well at the moment I am still practically living with him. My head is pretty mucked up though so am detaching and giving myself space by spending less time with him than I used to. My excitement about the relationship has waned and I have lost respect for him.

He is still set on going on this holiday and is attempting to normalise it by dropping it into converstaon. He has sought advice from a friend of his (who my bf has lent a lot of money to. Also this friend is an ex g/f's brother so he only told him an edited version so he looked good) the friend told him he was bad to do it but advised him to go on the holiday. Also my bf's mother came over a few days ago. We have always got on really well and she was totally on my side about the holiday saying he should ditch this ex f-budy girl and it was a terrible idea and wouldnt affect the children if they didnt go. On this occasion though she was rally off with me and laid into  me about the holiday saying I should trust him and let him go and I was spoiling her son and grandsons holiday with my suspicious ideas.

My post was cut short yesterday... .

About his mother - I wonder what he has said to her to make her do an about face like that - something untrue and unpleasant I am sure.

Anyway we have agreed to have another "talk" tonight. I have detached and he has withdrawn - he is also witholding sex (not that I really want to anyway) We are still living together but it is no longer a deep r/s. I don't know how to act around him as he goes away with this woman a week tomorrow. I don't want to break up before he goes as I think this is what he wants to ease his conscience and I need him to feel the repercusions of his decison to go on holiday with her and their kids. I am still here because right up until he goes there is a chance he could do or at least attempt to do the right thing. I feel like a wrung out sponge at the moment. Not even angry anymore just exhausted from it. I think he may try to end the r/s tonight. He said this morning that I must know he "likes" me (whatever happened to love?) because he wants me with him every evening but I say that he is not trying to reassure me or up the ante to show me he cares. If I had hurt someone that much I would be doing all I could to show them what they mean to me. Wish me luck... . ! I will validate and be calm...

Good luck!   

Be calm, but be strong at the same time.  If you get overloaded at any point dont be afraid to call a time out to compose yourself.

Hello Yeeter - thank you for that 

Am re-posting this as just got timed out after writing a long post -arghhh!

I am back from my talk as he had texted to say he had now arranged to go out for dinner with his male friend and could only give me half hour rather then the 2 hours we had said. Some of the time was taken up with discussing this fact too... . I didnt feel very prioritised - he said he didnt want a long talk.

He had just got back from a day with his ex f-buddy and their kids and was influenced by her as usua  l on these occasions. She wants him back and stirs things up when she can. The conversation was carried out surrounded by packing lists for their holiday which she had written out for him... nice.

He was on the attack straight away. He says that this holiday in April will "show me" how he felt in December. The background is that we agreed that I would leave my partner and he would break ties with hs ex f-buddy after xmas last year - we both agreed this timescale. He is punishing me for an essential trip I had to take in December for 2 days pre timescale. I did stick to the timescale and did my part - he didnt do anything to break his ties.

He said:

He said that he doesnt believe I have left my ex partner (bizarre as I have been living with my BPDbf!)

He says that I have no right to be upset

He thinks he may be "teaching me a lesson" so I don't do it again (!)

He is doing this only for their children

He said he has concerns about us as I always try to stop him going on trips (He is getting confused here - we had a massive row about his ex f-buddy holiday just before he went on a stag do. He now believes in his head that this row was about the stag do but it really wasnt, he remembers this wrong)

He said that she will be trying to seduce him for the whole trip (they are sharing a caravan)

He understands how I feel.

I was left feeling bemsed. I validated and remained calm. I said I know he wants to argue but I dont want to. I explained I was upset and why. I didnt get much time to talk but its pointless anyway as all it does is fuel him and confirm in his head that his holiday with another woman is MY fault. I know he HAS to attack me to avoid looking at himself in a bad light. His friend arrived and I left them to it. He came to give me a cuddle and said he was trying and would I come back at midnight. He was obviously unhappy I was going out for the evening as well as him.

Here I am now, not feeling upset just amazed! He took a ride on the crazy train to crazy town tonight.

I am just curious, is he dx'ed BPD?  If not, what traits have you experiences/observed?  I hear some vague traits, especially b/c he is really compelled to triangulate your relationship.  It sounds like you guys have been part of a triangle from the beginning (you said you left your ex for him).  In fact I would guess there is something really compelling to both of you to have a relationship in which 3 or more people are on the triangle.  He seems to really be working the victim role, with f-buddy being rescuer to your persecutor.  It will be up to you to get off the triangle, b/c he will continue to perpetuate this pattern forever, IMO.

I asked about dx b/c he seems to really have pronounced N traits.  If this is pervasive and not just episodically showing up in his push phase, there is a potential for narcissistic abuse.  It might be worth chking this out on internet.  Pervasive N traits make it more likely that you will be objectified and less likely that your partner will empathize or care about your needs.

I think it's awesome that your love for him is eroding.  That is a sign of self-love and good emotional heatlh!

Take care  

OK, so barring any last minute changes, he says he's going on this trip? 

What do you think you will do if he does go?

I think I'd have packed my bags and moved the hell out if this trip ever even became more than just a musing. 

I agree with Rossadanna... . There is A LOT of N stuff going on here, and he's getting way too much juciy attention for this... . if you keep giving this all your hang wringing attention (2 hours on the phone, of which he just blew you off, anyway... . what takes two hours?) you are only growing a bigger King Baby and participating in an absolute wet dream of a drama triangle with him.  About the only thing an N respects is strength.     

Get off this triangle. 

Or, stay on the triangle,  but absoultely do expect to have many, many more dramas of this nature for as long as you choose to play.   

Dear Connect,

I recognise much of the dynamic you have described. . .and as others have noted it sounds highly narcissistic.

In a similar way I heard much of what was said above especially when I put in boundaries and wouldn't 'let it go' - to him this was an attack and so he cranked it up. 

I would say he's psychologically projecting. . .and this is one thing that will put you on the crazy train so be careful.

He doesn't believe you have left your ex. . .or does he know he hasn't?

You have no right to be upset. . .rules are for everyone but him and it's YOU you're over-sensitive! You overreact!

He may be teaching you a lesson. . .or you may be trying to teach him one and that isn't allowed

He is doing this only for their children. . .pure guilt tripping

He said he has concerns about us as I always try to stop him going on trips. . .this is a passive aggressive threat and guilt tripping again

He said that she will be trying to seduce him for the whole trip (they are sharing a caravan). . .ugh! trying to create insecurity in you and testing

He understands how I feel. . .he doesn't - covert and a last minute attempt to remain in control

I know you want to all you can to save your relationship, I did too but these are behaviours that you will no doubt always have to live with.  There comes a point where if these behaviours are not acceptable to you, you have to follow through.   

Oh, one more thing - he's keeping you 'hooked' and 'on a thread' - did you go back at midnight?  You may not want to be so available to him  

Hi,

Rosannadanna - I looked up N traits and he does seem to have some of them but the arrogance and competative parts of it are missing in his day to day life - some of the others he has. Thanks for your time to answer it - Alos he has not been diagnosed with BPD but he fits so many of the traits for this. He say my T the other day and she may tell me her opnion on it next week as I told her what I suspected about BPD. Yes the triangle is a thing he cant seem to leave alone as well as the "keeping me on my toes" tendancies. I was in a triangle at the beginning but got out on the timescale we agreed.

Maybeso - Yes you are right about the packing of the bags. My reasons to not were to give him a chance to change things and also not to give him what he wants which is a guilt free holiday if I leave him before. I think shock about his decision has also played a part in this - I have never been treated like this before... Also a friend of mine had exactly the same situation once and she allowed the holiday and the relationship survived it so it made me doubt myself... stupid I know.


Briefcase - What will I do? Well it looks like he is going on the holiday. I dont want the r/s to end but how can I continue? I am very confused right now. My anger is really kicking in now mixed with dissapointment and grieving the r/s that I THOUGHT I had with him. I know I sound weak. My action plan is not to initiate contact him AT ALL while he is away - we have never gone a week without contact. I am not sure what I will do if he contacts me whilst on the trip. My natural response when he leaves for the trip will be that he has irrepairably damaged us.

Will write more in a minute... .

Sm15000 - Thanks for your pointers - you clarified a lot of things that were in my head as to his thoughts when he said the things he said. As for being unavailable to him  - I have been doing that. I have been going out lots this past week and a half which is not like me - normally I want to be with him all the time. Also he wanted me to come back at midnight as I refused to stay in his house when he was out (something I normally love to do and he knows it) He says he is very aware of how differently I am acting now towards him. Yes, like you, the boundaries and "not letting go" that I am doing is seen by him as a direct attack much like your situation. What is the background on your story? I cant see how to read your past posts on here... . Do you have a link? I think it would help me.

I am getting pretty tired, tearful, humiliated, detached, angrey and a million other things about this all at the same time. This morning I saw the note of his packing list that she had written out for him (with lots of little jokes on there) I couldnt help myself - I screwed it up in a ball and threw it back down on the floor. He will have seen that by now.

The awful thing is I keep doubting myself. I know he wont sleep with her and I keep thinking that should be enough and why cant he have a female friend... but then reality kicks in and I recall she is an ex - she is in love with him - he is encouraging her - he has esculated his behaviour with her rather then reduced it as I asked months and months ago - he will be spending seven days and nights sharing a caravan playing house with her and their kids - she will be trying to seduce him - they will be drinking - it is intimacy with another woman, he knows it hurts and may end the r/s and it pisses all over me.

This sucks. Its a test. I dont know what to do. I wont want him after this...

It appears to me that he has defined the terms of his version of the relationship. I know you are grieving the version you had imagined.

At this point, I see your having to deal not with what you thought the terms would be but rather the reality of what it is now. Is this the future you can live with? Are you willing to n

If not, you hsve decisions to make.egotiate these choices of his in future?

Sounds like an extinction burst.


If this was just a friend without history, or if he was going to meet her at the playground with the kids one afternoon for a few hours, then I'd say you need to reconsider. As it is this behaviour is WAY over the top. It's not one thing - it's the cluster of issues that have created this mess. HIS mess. Don't doubt yourself.


Is it possible though that he won't 'get it' until you're gone? In which case, you would need to pack up and leave before he goes to really give it a chance to sink in and for him to change his mind about the vacation. I'd bet that he just doesn't believe you now. He really thinks you won't actually leave so he's going on the trip. The shock part I know all too well - I feel like I'm in constant damage control mode, reeling from the latest announcement/discovery. It's really hard to find your footing when you're always playing catch-up! You've had a bit more time to think now... . Time to reanalyze and decide if you need to change anything up for your own sanity. If you really "won't want him after this" - then you have nothing to lose by leaving now. Having him 'come back' before he goes on vacation has a far greater chance of you working things out with him.


Not stupid at all. You are using the experience of others to inform yourself - that's exactly what we do on these boards a lot of the time too! BUT your friend's boundaries are not your boundaries. And as much as it may seem "exactly the same" I doubt that is really true - for one thing, the people involved are different. For example, affairs are not 'deal breakers' for me, but they are for a lot of people. Completely fair, but then comparing our reactions and feelings after the fact would be like comparing apples to oranges - just not the same.


You should be able to click on a user name, taking you to their profile page... . scroll down their profile a bit and at the bottom there should be a link to "Show last posts of this person". I copied this one for Sm15000 - hope it works for you: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?action=profile;u=48856;sa=showPosts (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?action=profile;u=48856;sa=showPosts)

There is nothing stupid about anything you are doing. This is very tuff stuff and you are dealing with a huge loss and are no doubt shocked.

The advice I'm giving comes from 5 years of the same dynamic, though my ex never pushed it this far and knows with 100 percent assurance I'd be gone if he did. I am sorry this is happening, I also want to support reality v. fantasy as much as possible, and reality is sometimes painful.

This has grown bigger than just will he or won't he go on this trip.

1-he has shown a lack of care for your most vulnerable feelings and needs and it doesn't bother him

2-he is enjoying being the object of desire of two women. No concern at all that one or both women and kids, too, are being jerked around, led on,  and hurt.

3-his logic for doing this is some kind of payback in his mind?... . this is akin to a 9 year old bully, gee, why not pull wings off butterfly's too while he is at it, he is showing you how

emotionally immature he is

4-all of this is showing you he is emotionally abusive

5-if you get through this episode with the relationship intact,  the above behaviors dont go

away... . the demise of the holiday doesn't fix the above. You will be managing these

behaviors a lot  the whole time you are with him.

The vacation is beside the point. If he changed his mind Right now, how would you feel?

You may be so relieved that you forget what he just put you through. Thats similar to

Stockholm syndrom. So start thinking this through now because its important for you to

understand this is who he is. Not just this one time because of this one unique trip. If he

ends the trip now, you still have to reconcile everything he just put you through and his

behavior.  He is being emotionally abusive whether he goes on the trip or not. Focus on

that, the trip is almost unimportant at this point, a red herring, a device.   This won't stop even if the ex F-buddy goes away. She is not the problem here... . it's him. There are a zillion Wana Be F-buddies out

there, this is who he is. Please make yourself and your own wellbeing a priority here.

Tough times connect.   

Gagrl makes an astute observation here.  You are mourning the loss of what you believed the relationship could have been.  Its not what you dreamed.  And now you have to accept that reality and figure out what you want to do with what the relationship actually 'is'.

I think most of us have went through this.  When I was doing it, the 5 stages of grief model helped me a little bit, to understand where I was at in the process and that my feelings at the time were normal:  Denial > Anger > Bargaining > Depression > Acceptance

The wise ones that advised me suggested not to fight this, but to just let it take its natural course, because each of these stages served a purpose.

I know its not the actual loss of a loved one, but it is definitely a loss.  Your dreams and hopes and desires are not going to play out the way you would like.  So an adjustment is needed, and this is a tough thing.

You will get through it.  Stay strong and believe in yourself.  Use your friends and family and support group - its what they are there for.

Just reading up on this thread. I'm sorry you're going through such a rough time. All of us hear know about the pain that goes with such relationship craziness.

I have to ask... . what are you getting out of this relationship at this point? You'r BF has proven, apparently beyond any shadow of a doubt that he doesn't respect you enough to cut things off with someone clearly trying to come between you in the most grievous of ways. He seems to lack understanding and/or empathy.

You're not married, and while moving out is never easy, why not use the ongoing and repeated proof that a) this relationship will always and forever be a struggle and b) he doesn't seem to recognize or care about that and c) he will almost certainly get worse over time, not better to decide to get out ASAP?

I don't mean to be uncaring, and I do absolutely understand the difficulty of taking such actions here. I believe that we all (humans, I mean) try to make things radically more complex than they really are. In this instance, from what I've read of your story, seems pretty cut and dry: You are a person who deserves respect, you're not getting it and likely never will, therefore there's little question about the value of this relationship now or in the long run.

Hang in there and MAKE it better. As people have been reminding me here on the forums, you are the only one in charge and/or control of your own experience.

Good luck!

Hello friends,

Wow - thank you so much guys - I really think I would be drowning if it wasnt for all your support and input.

I haven't got long so will keep it brief.

Gagrl - yes totally right I am grieving the loss of the r/s as I thought it was and am now in the stages of deciding what I can live with.

arabella  - I have thought about leaving before the holiday but I have some convoluted reasons for not doing so a) I truely believe he will still go b) he will welcome the relief of his guilt and uncomfortable feelings and c) I want him to feel the consequences. There is I admit a small part of me that wants to f-up his trip also - not proud of that one but I want him to experience how he feels being on that trip (and he will feel bad at some points) - after all he thinks its a viable option so lets see how that pans out for him... .   I do however think that you have a very valid point that if I were to leave anyway then why now now... . mmm... Thanks for the link help too :-)

MaybeSo -
I was thinking of your words today. They struck a chord and I told him (to paraphrase you) that even if he didnt go on holiday with her he has already caused MAJOR damage to our r/s by going as far as he has and showing this side of his character.

We had another talk today at his instigation. He is very low and agitated about this and I am even more so. He wanted to know what I am going to do. He doesnt want the r/s to end but he cant deal with how this conflict is making him feel. At the same time he wont do anything to make amends i.e. invite me etc.

I explained very carefully how I was feeling and said I wanted him in no doubt as to my views on this. I validated him where I could. We didnt row. He listened to me and didnt interupt and validated how I felt. Some bad stuff came up - he went back to us just "being friends" until his return from the holiday - he is really struggling with how he can do this to his g/f so he would prefer to not have a g/f then feel the way he is feeling. I pulled him up on this and he admitted it was true. I am going to see what pans out here, as someone said here - let it take it's course.

After the chat he went really quiet and stared into space - I was worried - he said he had a lot to process and was feeling really bad about himself and that he was a terrible person. He says he has consistantly made bad decisions in his life and when things like this happen he thinks its best to take some action by sticking to his original decision and see what happens. He says he doesnt learn from things well.

We agreed to spend tomorrow apart for some space. We are still officially together but I am emotionally detached now for my own sanity. It helps to see on this board that these things arent always personal. I feel better for talking to him as I got a lot off my chest but the situation remains unchanged fundamentally. I will be guided by my own feelings when the time comes.

Thanks everyone

sorry forgot to say...

yeeter - five stages of grief - very helpful in this scenario - have been thing about this.

coasterhusband - what do i get out of this r/s? good question. Lots and lots in the past, love, intimacy, laughing, talking, sex, companionship. But now as it stands - I am not getting my fundamental need of trusting him to do the right thing by me. That is a big minus on the seesaw.

The posters who noted a big N element here are right. Your bf sounds a lot like my ex (high functioning BPD with strong N traits). I faced similar situations in our r/s.

"Friend until returning from holidays" is b/s. He may even break up with you before - then get back together afterwards with begging and pleading and 500 emails and phone calls. My ex used to do this to me ad nauseum.

Until I caught on what's going on - and wisened up.

Do you have a good male friend to go on holiday at the same time your bf is scheduled to go?

This is the only thing that worked for me. Actually scheduling it and going with someone else.

He will try to spin it around until he sees the same thing done to him as he is doing to you. (Then he'll go into oblivion).

Take this advice with a grain of salt.

It does work. But you have to be careful if you decide to take this route. It works. It's a hard game to play. You will literally have to do tit for tat until he gets it - and then he'll either continue to play or he'll find an easier victim.

Hi sunflowerfields,

Poor you having to have dealt with all this too  What happened with your ex partner? I have seriously considered doing the same to him as I believe this is the only way he will "get it". My friends keep telling me not to do it though when I suggest it... . they say its a bad spiral to get into and to keep my dignity - I do think though that it would get through to him although I wont do it... I have got the same week off as he is away (booked when I was invited at one point) so I will be out and about a lot anyway. You are right he has definately been aiming towards some kind of split/reduction in our r/s before he goes (to alleviate his uncomfortable feelings about doing this to his me). I have told him I am aware of what he is doing and if he goes away he goes knowing he STILL HAS A GIRLFRIEND and he can deal with how that makes him feel. I will also be dealing with how it makes me feel and seriously evaluating my options.

After our chat yesterday at one point he went into victim mode and actually said to me " All I wanted to do was look forward to this holiday and you have stopped me being able to look forward to it. When I am away it will be spoilt as I will be worried that you will leave me when I get back too. I just wanted a nice week off"  GOOD! He then apologised for saying this.

I asked out of interest during our chat what his intentions on contact were whilst he was away (curiousity only mind you, as I am not going to be contacting him) he said he was planning on not taking his phone so he gets a proper rest from work calls. I explained he can simply change his answer phone message and he agreed. He then said he didnt want a "barrage of phone calls" from me spoiling his holiday (!) He is running away, putting his head in the sand and not thinking beyond his holiday with this woman. This man is operating on such a different level I cant comprehend him. Its almost laughable. I have told him I will be living elsewhere when he is away and he should get a friend to stay there and feed his pets.

Its a shame about the N traits he is displaying as that is a whole different ball game.

I have told him I want today to myself so I am off out now to go walking with my friend.

Connect, you're playing a losing game here.  You've told him that even if he doesn't go on the trip, major damage is already done.  Yet, you're still involved in conversations with him about it.

You're not going to teach him a lesson.  He's admitted that he doesn't learn from things well.  And he's blaming you for ridiculous things... .  His position won't change.  He might even twist it to 'you're probably going to break up with him anyway (he would!), so what the heck, may as well have a great time with f-buddy!'


He still has you as a girlfriend   I've read through your reasoning for this and keep coming back to you telling him that major damage has already been done.

If I was disordered suffering from BPD (w/NPD traits), I might think Cool, I still have a girlfriend that will put up with pretty much anything.  Woo hoo, lucky me *)

~or~  

What if while he's on this helliday he figures you're going to break up anyway so he'll attach himself to f-buddy even more so... .  So, he'll break up with you before you get the chance to break up with him.


What options are there to consider at this point?  Stay for even more of the same or break up.  

Once we're in the ring with them, the gloves come off, connect.  I fear you're in the midst of a losing battle.  

The only way to win is not to play.

The sort of evil version of me is all happy that he feels bad and you're "ruining" his holiday. The rational version of me is saying that those feelings won't last for him. He likely has a lack of object constancy and will be able to put you 'out of sight, out of mind' for his vacation. He doesn't even seem to maintain his emotional state for the duration of your conversations!

I would advise against playing the tit-for-tat game. I can see the appeal but... . I know my pwBPD would just use my behaviour as justification to paint me black. He wouldn't see how it was the same as his own behaviour. It would be 'different' somehow and suddenly all of our problems would be my fault. And/or he'd tell me I had no right to complain because I did all the same things. Anyway, game playing is always a bad idea - be yourself, that's the one person you're guaranteed to have to live with and stay in a relationship with forever!

+1 on taking the high road, and avoiding tit for tat games.  

You gave a lot of thout to your boundaries.  Rational and reasonable.  You decided what you would do if he decided to go on this trip.

Yes it's still tough emotional times.  Confusion.  Second guesses.  Basically still looking for any little thing that will allow you to rationalize NOT following through with your own boundaries.  I've been there for sure.  

But NOT following through.  NOT honoring your own boundary and your own self, will simply reinforce the status quo.  That he can do anything he wants and you will still be there.


of course it's not at all what you wanted, nor what you expected for your future together.  But you know now what the relationship will be... .     Which is better finding out now instead of another 2... .   5... .   10 years from now.  By enforcing the boundary you go forward in the relationship ONLY if it's a healthy one.  If not, you go forward in an unhealthy dynamic which you allowed, and thus is likely to repeat many times over.

Hugs  

Hello,

Thanks Yeeter - just what I needed to hear today. It is true - my head knows its true, I am just waiting for my heart to catch up.

I need to vent now guys... .  

I f*ed up big time last night. He has now got what he wanted and what I was trying so hard to avert.

I gave him and myself space yesterday and went out for 9 hours. I came back and I tried to be normal but I just couldnt do it. The holiday is in four days time. I ended up crying my heart out in front of him. We went to bed really really late (a trigger in itself for him) He cuddled me and looked after me and said we would get through this.

However this morning he was awakened by a call from his mother - a sudden awakening triggers a very bad mood for him. I said "please dont see her today we agreed I would take you out somewhere" (country walk and nice lunch) He took that call and I could hear her say that she knew he was in a bad way at the moment and she wanted to help him. He then said "so you want me to come over to see you today on my own? Ok I will do that" that was just for me to hear as that wasn't coming from her. He almost started raging at her and then hung up and started on me.

He said that I have to sort out my trust issues and that he cant stand that I wont let him talk to other women and its too much for him to cope with. I said I do trust him not to sleep with her on the holiday but I dont trust him to do the right thing by me. (by the way here I should mention something I am ashamed of and hence why I havent posted about it before - when he went on the stag do recently directly after our first row about his holiday - I discovered that he had taken condoms with him on the trip. The box was still unopened on his return , he said he took them out of anger and as he didnt use them then it wasnt so bad as I thought, god I am ashamed I let this go -I havent told anyone about this as I know what people will say, but I did let it go, denial, I nearly left him but I did let it go eventually. So yes I suppose I do have trust issues)

He said that he needs space and he will stay at his mothers tonight and he doesnt want to talk until I can talk to him normaly and not have a go at him all the time - this isnt true btw as I dont do this) He says that I am unreasonable and at the moment I am being even more unreasonable. He said he wants our r/s to work but we are making each other ill with this - he is worried about his own mental health and he cant deal with feeling so bad about himself and he can feel himself going into lock down. (He has only recently taken himself off anti-depressents against my advice) He looked and sounded pretty crazy, wild eyed, muttering and repeating phrases over again. I am really worried about him too actually.

He hugged me and said he was sorry that he had arranged this holiday and he knows it is wrong and he is so bad for doing it. But he cant cope.

I talked normally to him to keep him calm and gathered some of my things for tomorrow as I said I will stay at my friends tonight. As is usual with BPD I have no idea of how long this space is required for. I imagine until his return from the holiday. I am under no illusions as to what everyone thinks I should do which is run for the hills. Its heartbreaking - I love him - but he creates drama and impossible situations, pushes people away, triangulates and he wont allow himself to be loved.

He got what he wanted. Distance from me. Me out of his house. A row. Him in victim role. Me as persecuter. Mummy to tell him what a witch I am for upsetting her son.

I wanted to keep things calm so that when he was on the trip he would realise he had left his girlfriend at home and he was ACTUALLY on HOLIDAY with ANOTHER WOMAN. I wanted him to feel this. I wanted it to hit him in the face that HE was responsible for the situation HE was in. I thought it might be a break through of some kind (coming back from the holday early, inviting me to join him there, finally seeing he had a problem etc)

I have posted here before about how I KNEW he was trying to distance me before the holiday so that he wouldnt feel guilty about it. He wants to go away on a row or, as friends, or with distance or with me being "unreasonable" to justify it to himself so he doesnt have to look in the mirror and see its all his own doing. Or have to take responsibility.

I know what I have done wrong here if I wanted him to stick around before the trip (so that he would face things whilst ON the trip - last chance scenario for me). I should not be still talking to him about the holiday. I should have had some distance. I should have remained calmer. But I couldnt do it. I am upset. I am angry. He is behaving badly. He has hurt me. He tells me what he is doing as a bad thing but he keeps doing it. He blames me. I just cracked.

I just wanted him to go away KNOWING it was wrong. GETTING it. FEELING how inappropriate it is. Not him going away blaming me and justifying it. I have given that to him on a plate by losing it. He will never see that now. History is being re-written right now to him needing this holiday because I am such a jealous, unreasonable shrew. I can see it happening.

If he got that feeling then maybe we could have a chance at saving the r/s. If he could see he needed to look at himself.

Its the unfairness that is really getting me. I am being pushed out and blamed for his mistake. Its so unfair. So unfair.

Oh, connect... .    

You did not screw anything up. You did not set up this 'ideal' for him. And you can't expect yourself to follow a script! All those things he's accusing you of being? Unreasonable, etc? Projection! Don't listen to that crap. As much as I know you wanted to have some control over the outcome (don't we all?) the fact is you really don't. Nothing you did/didn't do was going to be the magic bullet, because it's not you - it's him.

I know exactly what you were trying to do. I see the rationale behind it and the hope stemming from it. But, to be honest with you, I don't think it would ever have worked anyway. Why? Because he would have just twisted THAT in order to make himself feel better, in order to still be the victim. I think I mentioned before that you might have to actually leave before he would comprehend that you actually meant it? That's what would have happened - you'd act perfectly according to your script, all calm and loving and firm, he would go on his vacation and put you out of his messed up mind so that he wouldn't have to deal with himself, and then he'd come back and blame you for not being 'more clear' or 'not telling him how you really felt' or 'not showing him how serious it was 'cause you were acting so calm'. Seriously. You can not win with a person playing these kinds of BPD mind games.

Now I have a question for you: why are you being so hard on yourself re the condom box incident? He gave you an explanation that, given his issues, actually sort of makes sense (can you tell I've spent too much time with a pwBPD ?) and so you decided to pick your battles. Sure, you could maybe have tried making more of a point about appropriate anger responses, etc. but do you really think that would have made a difference? And were you really going to break up with him over an unopened box? No and no. So it's over and done with. And you have another clue as to how his mind operates - he obviously realizes that infidelity, or the threat of it, will hurt you (otherwise why take condoms "out of anger"?) He is taunting you with your "trust issues" (which sounds perfectly legitimate to me) - GAS LIGHTING. So he knows what this vacation means too. De-nial = not just a river in Egypt.

I do agree with you on at least one thing - it is 100% unfair. It is also NOT YOUR FAULT. You know, I often wish it WERE my fault with my dBPDh - then I could at least change it.

You are projecting on to him your own cognitive ability to process logic and rational thought.  He cannot do this.

My DH spent many, many years dealing with his former wife's infidelities.  It never stopped, from 15 months into the marriage.  At one point, during yet another discussion of her behavior, she was finally honest enough to say,

"I know it's wrong, and I know it hurts you.  But it's what I want to do, so I'm going to do it."

Thanks Gagrl and arabella   - will answer properly in a while 

God I am now worried sick about the state he was in. Very worried. Don't know what to do.

What exactly is the worry? Is there something you're afraid he'll do/not do?

Connect, I completely agree with Arabella.  You did not do anything wrong here, even accepting that you wanted to maximize the chances he would have an "aha!" moment.

I think if you had remained strong, loving and firm & then he left, while he was gone, he would have felt triumphant that he pulled this off, that you had seen the light, gotten over your trust issues  , blah blah blah, and allowed this without blowing a gasket.  Then he returns & you have no choice according to your own boundary definition but to leave.  Not at all sure why you thought he would engage with this subtle ethical wrestling-with-self just because you were still acting like you were not going to fall apart over this.

If he was going to have an aha! moment I would think what happened in the past 24 hours would be more likely to cause it.  He is dysregulated now it sounds like because you have pushed the contradiction button.  He says he knows it is wrong, he says he wants you to allow it anyway.  Well, there it is, staring him in the face.  All set up to prompt his aha! moment.  He probably won't have it because BPD precludes aha! moments -- it's easier to put the blame for how this goes on you & he has much more experience doing that, rather than looking within.

But if he were going to be an exception, I think you've set that up as well this way as any.

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