Hos holiday with ex & how to confront

[Depression = 72% of members]

You may want to also, at some point, attempt to emotionally validate what it is he feels he needs or gets from this. 

Emotionally validating him around whatever he feels he needs from doing this, doesn't mean agreeing with him or waffeling on a boundary.  It means just letting him know you understand what his need is, that it is understandable, even if it is still not something you can agree to live with in your own life.

If he feels like you really get what his need is, or why this is so important to him (everyone wants to feel liked, important, freedom etc.,)... .  he may... .  MAY calm down and feel less of a need to dig his heals in. 

I suspect for him this may represent:

a break from routine, a sense of freedom, fun, an experince that is different than his usual experience, that is makes him feel good that this woman likes him so much, it makes him feel needed, desirable, like he's a swell guy... .  or maybe something else... .  you know him... .  what do you think the underlying need is?  alot of this is addiction related... .  but emotional validation helps him to get clear on what he's doing. If he just argues with you... he doens't have to get clear, he can just stay in victim mode.

if you can emotionally validate that liking or wanting those things are normal and understandable, and you get that his need is valid, and that it's not the need that's invalid, it's  just the way he's going about getting the need met ... .  that doesn't fit into your own value system... .  he may calm down.  I always found it very hard to emotionally validate stuff that I found especially threatening or painful... .  but these realtionship are really tuff. 

Emotional validation can be very soothing, and it helps people to have to get clear on their stuff. It doesn't mean tolerating abuse.  You still have to own your own boundaries.

It certainly won't do any harm.

[MaybeSo]

You may want to also, at some point, attempt to emotionally validate what it is he feels he needs or gets from this. 

Emotionally validating him around whatever he feels he needs from doing this, doesn't mean agreeing with him or waffeling on a boundary.  It means just letting him know you understand what his need is, that it is understandable, even if it is still not something you can agree to live with in your own life.

If he feels like you really get what his need is, or why this is so important to him (everyone wants to feel liked, important, freedom etc.,)... .  he may... .  MAY calm down and feel less of a need to dig his heals in. 

I suspect for him this may represent:

a break from routine, a sense of freedom, fun, an experince that is different than his usual experience, that is makes him feel good that this woman likes him so much, it makes him feel needed, desirable, like he's a swell guy... .  or maybe something else... .  you know him... .  what do you think the underlying need is?  alot of this is addiction related... .  but emotional validation helps him to get clear on what he's doing. If he just argues with you... he doens't have to get clear, he can just stay in victim mode.

if you can emotionally validate that liking or wanting those things are normal and understandable, and you get that his need is valid, and that it's not the need that's invalid, it's  just the way he's going about getting the need met ... .  that doesn't fit into your own value system... .  he may calm down.  I always found it very hard to emotionally validate stuff that I found especially threatening or painful... .  but these realtionship are really tuff. 

Emotional validation can be very soothing, and it helps people to have to get clear on their stuff. It doesn't mean tolerating abuse.  You still have to own your own boundaries.

It certainly won't do any harm.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[connect]

HI guys,

YOu dont know how much your support is helping me at the moment. I will write a longer reply as soon as I can. Thank you all so much

I am right in the midst of this at the moment... .  He is due to see my T in a few hours and I am having to stay around him to make sure it happens. Lots to report when I have time...

In the meantime I think my concern is that this is the first boundary I have set and unfotunately if he breaks it the relationship is over. Its hard and makes me worry I have gone in too big on this boundary but I fail to see how I can welcome him back after the week of hell he will put me through in two weeks time when he is away with this girl.

Am still checking in all the time and reading your posts and will post myself asap

Thank you x

[yeeter]

makes me worry I have gone in too big on this boundary

It is indeed hard.  But the dynamic of setting boundaries that you dont really enforce, simply trains him that you will cave.

You did the upfront work and evaluation of what the boundary really is for you.  It was thoughtful and reasonable.  :)ont replay or second guess this - just live it and follow through with it.  The outcome will be, what it is.  But you will feel better for valuing your own self enough to draw the lines on how you will allow other people to treat you.

[arabella]

I think my concern is that this is the first boundary I have set and unfotunately if he breaks it the relationship is over. Its hard and makes me worry I have gone in too big on this boundary but I fail to see how I can welcome him back after the week of hell he will put me through in two weeks time when he is away with this girl.

Don't doubt your boundary. You went 'big' on it because it IS a big deal. This isn't some minor behaviour or quirk that annoys you - this is fundamental to your beliefs and to your relationship. This is a deal-breaker, so you treat it as such. That's all there is to it. If you don't have an open relationship then this vacation with another woman is the ultimate type of betrayal - especially when you have made your feelings so abundantly clear.

If he chooses to go, he is choosing: to cheat on you (at least emotionally, and you'll always wonder about more), to willfully injure/disregard your emotional well-being, to risk/throw away his relationship with you (what does that say about its priority in his life?), to put another woman's demands ahead of your own, to invalidate an essential part of your beliefs, and to avoid his own issues regardless of consequences (and there's little long-term hope for someone who does this).

I don't want to be negative, or overly dramatic, but I also don't want to see you doubt yourself regarding this boundary. You are being true to yourself. You are doing the right thing!

[MaybeSo]

Yup, this is a lifestyle and life-value issue; so it is big. It's not about bathroom etiquette or something less impacting on your life.

[connect]

Hello,

Thank you very much    - you are all so right.

Its hard to put on long posts as am at his house but I am checking in daily for your support.

He went to the councillor and she gave him what for. She told him it was unlikely I would be waiting for him on his return and questioned the signals he was sending to me and to the ex f-buddy/friend. She made him face up to his choice. He didnt enjoy it as I know he argued with her at one point over childcare etc and said to me she was "standard issue, od school" so it was uncomfortable for him. He did tell me everything they discussed though. He still seemd to be seeking my permission for the holiday (and checking I wouldnt leave him) in the evening so I calmly said "You can do what you choose to do. I will not however give you my permission and it is not allright with me. I will obviously have strong reactions to this whether you like that or not"

I am now going out for the day and leaving him to it. Hopefully he will think about what the councillor said. I know I have thought about it enough (4am was the last time... .  )

Will check in soon - thanks :-)

[connect]

BTW Maybeso - I took your advice and validated his need for the holiday last night without agreeing to it - rest, kids, break etc including the part about how there must also be an attraction in having a girl who loves you (other then your girlfriend) waiting on you hand and foot and attempting seduction. It did keep him calm and was a new approach. I may ask him about relationship difficulties he has had in the past and ask him if he thinks he has some issues in this area. (but without talking about the holiday)

Thanks :-)

[123Phoebe]

I may ask him about relationship difficulties he has had in the past and ask him if he thinks he has some issues in this area. (but without talking about the holiday)

Hi connect

Ugh, not fun to be facing this madness.  Please be careful about stepping into 'therapist territory' with him.  You are his girlfriend/lover, not his psyche doc.  Keep the focus on yourself and your values, what's important to you.  Once we step over into their brain things get all fogged up.  He obviously has issues, that's a given.  No matter what you ask or how it's phrased, it's still stepping over into his territory/his stuff.  Stay centered on yourself and what you want out of a relationship.

I'm very sorry that this is even an issue.  It is one to be taken seriously.  Take yourself seriously by not letting his ridiculousness about it sway what's important to you.  If you don't take yourself seriously, he won't either.

Detach and let go... .   

[connect]

Hi all,

Thanks again for everything you have all said... . :-)

Well at the moment I am still practically living with him. My head is pretty mucked up though so am detaching and giving myself space by spending less time with him than I used to. My excitement about the relationship has waned and I have lost respect for him.

He is still set on going on this holiday and is attempting to normalise it by dropping it into converstaon. He has sought advice from a friend of his (who my bf has lent a lot of money to. Also this friend is an ex g/f's brother so he only told him an edited version so he looked good) the friend told him he was bad to do it but advised him to go on the holiday. Also my bf's mother came over a few days ago. We have always got on really well and she was totally on my side about the holiday saying he should ditch this ex f-budy girl and it was a terrible idea and wouldnt affect the children if they didnt go. On this occasion though she was rally off with me and laid into  me about the holiday saying I should trust him and let him go and I was spoiling her son and grandsons holiday with my suspicious ideas.

[connect]

My post was cut short yesterday... .

About his mother - I wonder what he has said to her to make her do an about face like that - something untrue and unpleasant I am sure.

Anyway we have agreed to have another "talk" tonight. I have detached and he has withdrawn - he is also witholding sex (not that I really want to anyway) We are still living together but it is no longer a deep r/s. I don't know how to act around him as he goes away with this woman a week tomorrow. I don't want to break up before he goes as I think this is what he wants to ease his conscience and I need him to feel the repercusions of his decison to go on holiday with her and their kids. I am still here because right up until he goes there is a chance he could do or at least attempt to do the right thing. I feel like a wrung out sponge at the moment. Not even angry anymore just exhausted from it. I think he may try to end the r/s tonight. He said this morning that I must know he "likes" me (whatever happened to love?) because he wants me with him every evening but I say that he is not trying to reassure me or up the ante to show me he cares. If I had hurt someone that much I would be doing all I could to show them what they mean to me. Wish me luck... . ! I will validate and be calm...

[yeeter]

Wish me luck... . ! I will validate and be calm...

Good luck!   

Be calm, but be strong at the same time.  If you get overloaded at any point dont be afraid to call a time out to compose yourself.

[connect]

Hello Yeeter - thank you for that 

Am re-posting this as just got timed out after writing a long post -arghhh!

I am back from my talk as he had texted to say he had now arranged to go out for dinner with his male friend and could only give me half hour rather then the 2 hours we had said. Some of the time was taken up with discussing this fact too... . I didnt feel very prioritised - he said he didnt want a long talk.

He had just got back from a day with his ex f-buddy and their kids and was influenced by her as usua  l on these occasions. She wants him back and stirs things up when she can. The conversation was carried out surrounded by packing lists for their holiday which she had written out for him... nice.

He was on the attack straight away. He says that this holiday in April will "show me" how he felt in December. The background is that we agreed that I would leave my partner and he would break ties with hs ex f-buddy after xmas last year - we both agreed this timescale. He is punishing me for an essential trip I had to take in December for 2 days pre timescale. I did stick to the timescale and did my part - he didnt do anything to break his ties.

He said:

He said that he doesnt believe I have left my ex partner (bizarre as I have been living with my BPDbf!)

He says that I have no right to be upset

He thinks he may be "teaching me a lesson" so I don't do it again (!)

He is doing this only for their children

He said he has concerns about us as I always try to stop him going on trips (He is getting confused here - we had a massive row about his ex f-buddy holiday just before he went on a stag do. He now believes in his head that this row was about the stag do but it really wasnt, he remembers this wrong)

He said that she will be trying to seduce him for the whole trip (they are sharing a caravan)

He understands how I feel.

I was left feeling bemsed. I validated and remained calm. I said I know he wants to argue but I dont want to. I explained I was upset and why. I didnt get much time to talk but its pointless anyway as all it does is fuel him and confirm in his head that his holiday with another woman is MY fault. I know he HAS to attack me to avoid looking at himself in a bad light. His friend arrived and I left them to it. He came to give me a cuddle and said he was trying and would I come back at midnight. He was obviously unhappy I was going out for the evening as well as him.

Here I am now, not feeling upset just amazed! He took a ride on the crazy train to crazy town tonight.

[rosannadanna]

I am just curious, is he dx'ed BPD?  If not, what traits have you experiences/observed?  I hear some vague traits, especially b/c he is really compelled to triangulate your relationship.  It sounds like you guys have been part of a triangle from the beginning (you said you left your ex for him).  In fact I would guess there is something really compelling to both of you to have a relationship in which 3 or more people are on the triangle.  He seems to really be working the victim role, with f-buddy being rescuer to your persecutor.  It will be up to you to get off the triangle, b/c he will continue to perpetuate this pattern forever, IMO.

I asked about dx b/c he seems to really have pronounced N traits.  If this is pervasive and not just episodically showing up in his push phase, there is a potential for narcissistic abuse.  It might be worth chking this out on internet.  Pervasive N traits make it more likely that you will be objectified and less likely that your partner will empathize or care about your needs.

I think it's awesome that your love for him is eroding.  That is a sign of self-love and good emotional heatlh!

Take care  

[briefcase]

OK, so barring any last minute changes, he says he's going on this trip? 

What do you think you will do if he does go?

[MaybeSo]

I think I'd have packed my bags and moved the hell out if this trip ever even became more than just a musing. 

I agree with Rossadanna... . There is A LOT of N stuff going on here, and he's getting way too much juciy attention for this... . if you keep giving this all your hang wringing attention (2 hours on the phone, of which he just blew you off, anyway... . what takes two hours?) you are only growing a bigger King Baby and participating in an absolute wet dream of a drama triangle with him.  About the only thing an N respects is strength.     

Get off this triangle. 

Or, stay on the triangle,  but absoultely do expect to have many, many more dramas of this nature for as long as you choose to play.   

[sm15000]

He said that he doesnt believe I have left my ex partner (bizarre as I have been living with my BPDbf!)

He says that I have no right to be upset

He thinks he may be "teaching me a lesson" so I don't do it again (!)

He is doing this only for their children

He said he has concerns about us as I always try to stop him going on trips (He is getting confused here - we had a massive row about his ex f-buddy holiday just before he went on a stag do. He now believes in his head that this row was about the stag do but it really wasnt, he remembers this wrong)

He said that she will be trying to seduce him for the whole trip (they are sharing a caravan)

He understands how I feel.

Dear Connect,

I recognise much of the dynamic you have described. . .and as others have noted it sounds highly narcissistic.

In a similar way I heard much of what was said above especially when I put in boundaries and wouldn't 'let it go' - to him this was an attack and so he cranked it up. 

I would say he's psychologically projecting. . .and this is one thing that will put you on the crazy train so be careful.

He doesn't believe you have left your ex. . .or does he know he hasn't?

You have no right to be upset. . .rules are for everyone but him and it's YOU you're over-sensitive! You overreact!

He may be teaching you a lesson. . .or you may be trying to teach him one and that isn't allowed

He is doing this only for their children. . .pure guilt tripping

He said he has concerns about us as I always try to stop him going on trips. . .this is a passive aggressive threat and guilt tripping again

He said that she will be trying to seduce him for the whole trip (they are sharing a caravan). . .ugh! trying to create insecurity in you and testing

He understands how I feel. . .he doesn't - covert and a last minute attempt to remain in control

I know you want to all you can to save your relationship, I did too but these are behaviours that you will no doubt always have to live with.  There comes a point where if these behaviours are not acceptable to you, you have to follow through.   

[sm15000]

He came to give me a cuddle and said he was trying and would I come back at midnight. He was obviously unhappy I was going out for the evening as well as him.

Oh, one more thing - he's keeping you 'hooked' and 'on a thread' - did you go back at midnight?  You may not want to be so available to him  

[connect]

Hi,

Rosannadanna - I looked up N traits and he does seem to have some of them but the arrogance and competative parts of it are missing in his day to day life - some of the others he has. Thanks for your time to answer it - Alos he has not been diagnosed with BPD but he fits so many of the traits for this. He say my T the other day and she may tell me her opnion on it next week as I told her what I suspected about BPD. Yes the triangle is a thing he cant seem to leave alone as well as the "keeping me on my toes" tendancies. I was in a triangle at the beginning but got out on the timescale we agreed.

Maybeso - Yes you are right about the packing of the bags. My reasons to not were to give him a chance to change things and also not to give him what he wants which is a guilt free holiday if I leave him before. I think shock about his decision has also played a part in this - I have never been treated like this before... Also a friend of mine had exactly the same situation once and she allowed the holiday and the relationship survived it so it made me doubt myself... stupid I know.


Briefcase - What will I do? Well it looks like he is going on the holiday. I dont want the r/s to end but how can I continue? I am very confused right now. My anger is really kicking in now mixed with dissapointment and grieving the r/s that I THOUGHT I had with him. I know I sound weak. My action plan is not to initiate contact him AT ALL while he is away - we have never gone a week without contact. I am not sure what I will do if he contacts me whilst on the trip. My natural response when he leaves for the trip will be that he has irrepairably damaged us.

Will write more in a minute... .

[connect]

Sm15000 - Thanks for your pointers - you clarified a lot of things that were in my head as to his thoughts when he said the things he said. As for being unavailable to him  - I have been doing that. I have been going out lots this past week and a half which is not like me - normally I want to be with him all the time. Also he wanted me to come back at midnight as I refused to stay in his house when he was out (something I normally love to do and he knows it) He says he is very aware of how differently I am acting now towards him. Yes, like you, the boundaries and "not letting go" that I am doing is seen by him as a direct attack much like your situation. What is the background on your story? I cant see how to read your past posts on here... . Do you have a link? I think it would help me.

I am getting pretty tired, tearful, humiliated, detached, angrey and a million other things about this all at the same time. This morning I saw the note of his packing list that she had written out for him (with lots of little jokes on there) I couldnt help myself - I screwed it up in a ball and threw it back down on the floor. He will have seen that by now.

The awful thing is I keep doubting myself. I know he wont sleep with her and I keep thinking that should be enough and why cant he have a female friend... but then reality kicks in and I recall she is an ex - she is in love with him - he is encouraging her - he has esculated his behaviour with her rather then reduced it as I asked months and months ago - he will be spending seven days and nights sharing a caravan playing house with her and their kids - she will be trying to seduce him - they will be drinking - it is intimacy with another woman, he knows it hurts and may end the r/s and it pisses all over me.

This sucks. Its a test. I dont know what to do. I wont want him after this...

[GaGrl]

It appears to me that he has defined the terms of his version of the relationship. I know you are grieving the version you had imagined.

At this point, I see your having to deal not with what you thought the terms would be but rather the reality of what it is now. Is this the future you can live with? Are you willing to n

If not, you hsve decisions to make.egotiate these choices of his in future?

[arabella]

In a similar way I heard much of what was said above especially when I put in boundaries and wouldn't 'let it go' - to him this was an attack and so he cranked it up.

Sounds like an extinction burst.

I know he wont sleep with her and I keep thinking that should be enough and why cant he have a female friend...

If this was just a friend without history, or if he was going to meet her at the playground with the kids one afternoon for a few hours, then I'd say you need to reconsider. As it is this behaviour is WAY over the top. It's not one thing - it's the cluster of issues that have created this mess. HIS mess. Don't doubt yourself.

My reasons to not were to give him a chance to change things and also not to give him what he wants which is a guilt free holiday if I leave him before. I think shock about his decision has also played a part in this - I have never been treated like this before...

Is it possible though that he won't 'get it' until you're gone? In which case, you would need to pack up and leave before he goes to really give it a chance to sink in and for him to change his mind about the vacation. I'd bet that he just doesn't believe you now. He really thinks you won't actually leave so he's going on the trip. The shock part I know all too well - I feel like I'm in constant damage control mode, reeling from the latest announcement/discovery. It's really hard to find your footing when you're always playing catch-up! You've had a bit more time to think now... . Time to reanalyze and decide if you need to change anything up for your own sanity. If you really "won't want him after this" - then you have nothing to lose by leaving now. Having him 'come back' before he goes on vacation has a far greater chance of you working things out with him.

Also a friend of mine had exactly the same situation once and she allowed the holiday and the relationship survived it so it made me doubt myself... stupid I know.

Not stupid at all. You are using the experience of others to inform yourself - that's exactly what we do on these boards a lot of the time too! BUT your friend's boundaries are not your boundaries. And as much as it may seem "exactly the same" I doubt that is really true - for one thing, the people involved are different. For example, affairs are not 'deal breakers' for me, but they are for a lot of people. Completely fair, but then comparing our reactions and feelings after the fact would be like comparing apples to oranges - just not the same.

I cant see how to read your past posts on here... . Do you have a link? I think it would help me.

You should be able to click on a user name, taking you to their profile page... . scroll down their profile a bit and at the bottom there should be a link to "Show last posts of this person". I copied this one for Sm15000 - hope it works for you: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?action=profile;u=48856;sa=showPosts

[MaybeSo]

There is nothing stupid about anything you are doing. This is very tuff stuff and you are dealing with a huge loss and are no doubt shocked.

The advice I'm giving comes from 5 years of the same dynamic, though my ex never pushed it this far and knows with 100 percent assurance I'd be gone if he did. I am sorry this is happening, I also want to support reality v. fantasy as much as possible, and reality is sometimes painful.

This has grown bigger than just will he or won't he go on this trip.

1-he has shown a lack of care for your most vulnerable feelings and needs and it doesn't bother him

2-he is enjoying being the object of desire of two women. No concern at all that one or both women and kids, too, are being jerked around, led on,  and hurt.

3-his logic for doing this is some kind of payback in his mind?... . this is akin to a 9 year old bully, gee, why not pull wings off butterfly's too while he is at it, he is showing you how

emotionally immature he is

4-all of this is showing you he is emotionally abusive

5-if you get through this episode with the relationship intact,  the above behaviors dont go

away... . the demise of the holiday doesn't fix the above. You will be managing these

behaviors a lot  the whole time you are with him.

The vacation is beside the point. If he changed his mind Right now, how would you feel?

You may be so relieved that you forget what he just put you through. Thats similar to

Stockholm syndrom. So start thinking this through now because its important for you to

understand this is who he is. Not just this one time because of this one unique trip. If he

ends the trip now, you still have to reconcile everything he just put you through and his

behavior.  He is being emotionally abusive whether he goes on the trip or not. Focus on

that, the trip is almost unimportant at this point, a red herring, a device.   This won't stop even if the ex F-buddy goes away. She is not the problem here... . it's him. There are a zillion Wana Be F-buddies out

there, this is who he is. Please make yourself and your own wellbeing a priority here.

[yeeter]

It appears to me that he has defined the terms of his version of the relationship. I know you are grieving the version you had imagined.

At this point, I see your having to deal not with what you thought the terms would be but rather the reality of what it is now. Is this the future you can live with?

Tough times connect.   

Gagrl makes an astute observation here.  You are mourning the loss of what you believed the relationship could have been.  Its not what you dreamed.  And now you have to accept that reality and figure out what you want to do with what the relationship actually 'is'.

I think most of us have went through this.  When I was doing it, the 5 stages of grief model helped me a little bit, to understand where I was at in the process and that my feelings at the time were normal:  Denial > Anger > Bargaining > Depression > Acceptance

The wise ones that advised me suggested not to fight this, but to just let it take its natural course, because each of these stages served a purpose.

I know its not the actual loss of a loved one, but it is definitely a loss.  Your dreams and hopes and desires are not going to play out the way you would like.  So an adjustment is needed, and this is a tough thing.

You will get through it.  Stay strong and believe in yourself.  Use your friends and family and support group - its what they are there for.

[coasterhusband]

Just reading up on this thread. I'm sorry you're going through such a rough time. All of us hear know about the pain that goes with such relationship craziness.

I have to ask... . what are you getting out of this relationship at this point? You'r BF has proven, apparently beyond any shadow of a doubt that he doesn't respect you enough to cut things off with someone clearly trying to come between you in the most grievous of ways. He seems to lack understanding and/or empathy.

You're not married, and while moving out is never easy, why not use the ongoing and repeated proof that a) this relationship will always and forever be a struggle and b) he doesn't seem to recognize or care about that and c) he will almost certainly get worse over time, not better to decide to get out ASAP?

I don't mean to be uncaring, and I do absolutely understand the difficulty of taking such actions here. I believe that we all (humans, I mean) try to make things radically more complex than they really are. In this instance, from what I've read of your story, seems pretty cut and dry: You are a person who deserves respect, you're not getting it and likely never will, therefore there's little question about the value of this relationship now or in the long run.

Hang in there and MAKE it better. As people have been reminding me here on the forums, you are the only one in charge and/or control of your own experience.

Good luck!

[connect]

Hello friends,

Wow - thank you so much guys - I really think I would be drowning if it wasnt for all your support and input.

I haven't got long so will keep it brief.

Gagrl - yes totally right I am grieving the loss of the r/s as I thought it was and am now in the stages of deciding what I can live with.

arabella  - I have thought about leaving before the holiday but I have some convoluted reasons for not doing so a) I truely believe he will still go b) he will welcome the relief of his guilt and uncomfortable feelings and c) I want him to feel the consequences. There is I admit a small part of me that wants to f-up his trip also - not proud of that one but I want him to experience how he feels being on that trip (and he will feel bad at some points) - after all he thinks its a viable option so lets see how that pans out for him... .   I do however think that you have a very valid point that if I were to leave anyway then why now now... . mmm... Thanks for the link help too :-)

MaybeSo -

The vacation is beside the point. If he changed his mind Right now, how would you feel?

You may be so relieved that you forget what he just put you through. Thats similar to

Stockholm syndrom. So start thinking this through now because its important for you to

understand this is who he is. Not just this one time because of this one unique trip. If he

ends the trip now, you still have to reconcile everything he just put you through and his

behavior.  He is being emotionally abusive whether he goes on the trip or not. Focus on

that, the trip is almost unimportant at this point, a red herring, a device.   This won't stop even if the ex F-buddy goes away. She is not the problem here... . it's him. There are a zillion Wana Be F-buddies out

there, this is who he is. Please make yourself and your own wellbeing a priority here.

I was thinking of your words today. They struck a chord and I told him (to paraphrase you) that even if he didnt go on holiday with her he has already caused MAJOR damage to our r/s by going as far as he has and showing this side of his character.

We had another talk today at his instigation. He is very low and agitated about this and I am even more so. He wanted to know what I am going to do. He doesnt want the r/s to end but he cant deal with how this conflict is making him feel. At the same time he wont do anything to make amends i.e. invite me etc.

I explained very carefully how I was feeling and said I wanted him in no doubt as to my views on this. I validated him where I could. We didnt row. He listened to me and didnt interupt and validated how I felt. Some bad stuff came up - he went back to us just "being friends" until his return from the holiday - he is really struggling with how he can do this to his g/f so he would prefer to not have a g/f then feel the way he is feeling. I pulled him up on this and he admitted it was true. I am going to see what pans out here, as someone said here - let it take it's course.

After the chat he went really quiet and stared into space - I was worried - he said he had a lot to process and was feeling really bad about himself and that he was a terrible person. He says he has consistantly made bad decisions in his life and when things like this happen he thinks its best to take some action by sticking to his original decision and see what happens. He says he doesnt learn from things well.

We agreed to spend tomorrow apart for some space. We are still officially together but I am emotionally detached now for my own sanity. It helps to see on this board that these things arent always personal. I feel better for talking to him as I got a lot off my chest but the situation remains unchanged fundamentally. I will be guided by my own feelings when the time comes.

Thanks everyone

[connect]

sorry forgot to say...

yeeter - five stages of grief - very helpful in this scenario - have been thing about this.

coasterhusband - what do i get out of this r/s? good question. Lots and lots in the past, love, intimacy, laughing, talking, sex, companionship. But now as it stands - I am not getting my fundamental need of trusting him to do the right thing by me. That is a big minus on the seesaw.

[SunflowerFields]

The posters who noted a big N element here are right. Your bf sounds a lot like my ex (high functioning BPD with strong N traits). I faced similar situations in our r/s.

"Friend until returning from holidays" is b/s. He may even break up with you before - then get back together afterwards with begging and pleading and 500 emails and phone calls. My ex used to do this to me ad nauseum.

Until I caught on what's going on - and wisened up.

Do you have a good male friend to go on holiday at the same time your bf is scheduled to go?

This is the only thing that worked for me. Actually scheduling it and going with someone else.

He will try to spin it around until he sees the same thing done to him as he is doing to you. (Then he'll go into oblivion).

Take this advice with a grain of salt.

It does work. But you have to be careful if you decide to take this route. It works. It's a hard game to play. You will literally have to do tit for tat until he gets it - and then he'll either continue to play or he'll find an easier victim.

[connect]

Hi sunflowerfields,

Poor you having to have dealt with all this too  What happened with your ex partner? I have seriously considered doing the same to him as I believe this is the only way he will "get it". My friends keep telling me not to do it though when I suggest it... . they say its a bad spiral to get into and to keep my dignity - I do think though that it would get through to him although I wont do it... I have got the same week off as he is away (booked when I was invited at one point) so I will be out and about a lot anyway. You are right he has definately been aiming towards some kind of split/reduction in our r/s before he goes (to alleviate his uncomfortable feelings about doing this to his me). I have told him I am aware of what he is doing and if he goes away he goes knowing he STILL HAS A GIRLFRIEND and he can deal with how that makes him feel. I will also be dealing with how it makes me feel and seriously evaluating my options.

After our chat yesterday at one point he went into victim mode and actually said to me " All I wanted to do was look forward to this holiday and you have stopped me being able to look forward to it. When I am away it will be spoilt as I will be worried that you will leave me when I get back too. I just wanted a nice week off"  GOOD! He then apologised for saying this.

I asked out of interest during our chat what his intentions on contact were whilst he was away (curiousity only mind you, as I am not going to be contacting him) he said he was planning on not taking his phone so he gets a proper rest from work calls. I explained he can simply change his answer phone message and he agreed. He then said he didnt want a "barrage of phone calls" from me spoiling his holiday (!) He is running away, putting his head in the sand and not thinking beyond his holiday with this woman. This man is operating on such a different level I cant comprehend him. Its almost laughable. I have told him I will be living elsewhere when he is away and he should get a friend to stay there and feed his pets.

Its a shame about the N traits he is displaying as that is a whole different ball game.

I have told him I want today to myself so I am off out now to go walking with my friend.

[123Phoebe]

Connect, you're playing a losing game here.  You've told him that even if he doesn't go on the trip, major damage is already done.  Yet, you're still involved in conversations with him about it.

You're not going to teach him a lesson.  He's admitted that he doesn't learn from things well.  And he's blaming you for ridiculous things... .  His position won't change.  He might even twist it to 'you're probably going to break up with him anyway (he would!), so what the heck, may as well have a great time with f-buddy!'

I have told him I am aware of what he is doing and if he goes away he goes knowing he STILL HAS A GIRLFRIEND and he can deal with how that makes him feel.

He still has you as a girlfriend   I've read through your reasoning for this and keep coming back to you telling him that major damage has already been done.

If I was disordered suffering from BPD (w/NPD traits), I might think Cool, I still have a girlfriend that will put up with pretty much anything.  Woo hoo, lucky me

~or~  

What if while he's on this helliday he figures you're going to break up anyway so he'll attach himself to f-buddy even more so... .  So, he'll break up with you before you get the chance to break up with him.

I will also be dealing with how it makes me feel and seriously evaluating my options.

What options are there to consider at this point?  Stay for even more of the same or break up.  

Once we're in the ring with them, the gloves come off, connect.  I fear you're in the midst of a losing battle.  

The only way to win is not to play.

[arabella]

The sort of evil version of me is all happy that he feels bad and you're "ruining" his holiday. The rational version of me is saying that those feelings won't last for him. He likely has a lack of object constancy and will be able to put you 'out of sight, out of mind' for his vacation. He doesn't even seem to maintain his emotional state for the duration of your conversations!

I would advise against playing the tit-for-tat game. I can see the appeal but... . I know my pwBPD would just use my behaviour as justification to paint me black. He wouldn't see how it was the same as his own behaviour. It would be 'different' somehow and suddenly all of our problems would be my fault. And/or he'd tell me I had no right to complain because I did all the same things. Anyway, game playing is always a bad idea - be yourself, that's the one person you're guaranteed to have to live with and stay in a relationship with forever!