BPDFamily.com

Some of you have read my other threads and know DD is in jail for 2nd harrassment/domestic violence charge plus violation of no-contact order with exbf M. She told me "I did not throw a cup of water on him. There were cups lying all around and he picked up an empty one." It will out come out in court eventually. Slow process if she fights the charges - each hearing is about 3 weeks from previous one.

Dh and I really need a break. Need to focus our attention on our own low mood and energy - both of us. And being able to restore balance with gd8. We have been too inattentive with her in our exhaustion. That is for another thread.

My need is to find the courage and strength to let the consequences fall 100% on DD. To let her stay in jail until this case is resolved. To be prepared for her anger and blaming of me for 'rejecting her'.

She has phone privileges to my cell phone - prepaid account is cheaper than collect calls. She has access to call a couple times a day. She expects me to be wearing my phone so I can answer immediately and spend 15 minutes on phone with her. She expects me to support her statements of innocence and being the victim. I have done this in the past - it is the easiest path in the moment to not be harrssed myself.

She called while I was getting gd into car for her weekly horse riding class. I heard phone and did not answer the first 2 times. I answered the 3rd time and let her know I was driving and could not talk long. She wanted to know if I had talked to lawyer, when she would be getting out. I reminded her it was the weekend, that I had called booking and her hearing is Monday at 2pm in jail court, and I am home alone with gd so will not be at court, and will call after 4 to check on results.

I also said I was very dissapointed in her choices to skip her probation class and hang out with her friends. Knowing the risk of exbf being too close by. She made excuses of missing her friends, not remembering the class (I had asked her as she left on Thursday afternoon).

How to validate her feelings of unfairness, lonliness, being abandoned by her family (esp. if we choose to not bail her out next week)... . ?

How to continue to maintain that she is there as a result of her choices -- it is hard to not say those things. Is there a way to convert these statements into questions that would feel less judgemental for her? or will any words feel judgemental for her? This is her problem. Eventually she will need to spend some time in jail for the 3 sets of charges she is facing - why not now? And this will also keep her from getting more charges because she will get lonely and bored and choose to be with her friends and risk being around exbf. She managed a month staying away -- that is her pattern of 4-6 weeks staying focused.

SHe has goals of getting job, place to live and POS car (piece of ___). Can I remind her that the first step is to work with treatment to learn some new skills to be organized and focused to make the job goal a success? That the first step is to make it weekly to a meeting with her case worker? Guess this is all pointless right now. Will keep these thoughts to myself - hard for me. Will work on discipline for self in this.

Why is it so hard for me to do what I know needs to be done? With myself. With dh. with gd. with dd. I have the toolbag of tools and skills to use them. Why do I let it sit on the ground next to me? In my reading the past couple weeks the message is LIVE IT, DO IT. THE TIME FOR STUDY IS DONE. I have gotten this mesaage in several places - bible, mom's mentoring group, reading Brene Brown books, talking with dh, talking with T's... .

Remind me please... .

qcr

Oh, qcr,

I am SO with you on the not picking up the tools thing.   

I think that for intellectual people it is easier to intellectualize, think, and read, and learn, and on and on.

And when it comes to picking up the tools, and using them, it requires a bit of a different part of our brain - the relational/emotional part. And that is hard for some of us. It is much easier to exercise those muscles that are strong than to strengthen the muscles that are weak... . Does that make sense?   

On the validating part, I would say: "I am so sorry that this happened to you. Life often seems unfair. You might have to be in jail, because there was an order for you to stay away from M, and you were found where he was." (that way, you can validate her feelings, you can state the truth AND you don't have to make her feel judged for her poor choices)

On not bailing her out, I would say: "I am sorry, we will not be able to do that for you. We love you so much and wish you did not have to be in jail. It must feel terrible to be locked up. What can we do for you, so you feel better while you are in jail?"

On her job hunting, not sure if/when she will be able to hear what you have to say. Maybe if there is a learning opportunity for her, if she is sharing with you, you might gently explain to her that some goals that are worthy of pursuing take a while to accomplish. You might try to see (by asking questions) if she thinks the treatment and skills-learning would help in that process, or what she thinks would be a wise approach... .

She needs the warmth of a close compassionate connection. Knowing your situation a bit (her adoption, her being closed off and not open and vulnerable), it might be hard to accomplish. The walls that she put up are her prison... .   :'(

I pray that somehow, she will cooperate with therapy one day, and through the process, she will be able to take the walls down brick by brick. In the meantime, I hope for her and your family for a little peek over the wall here and there, or permanent windows in the wall here and there... .    

Qcarol,

The best our BPDs did was when he was in jail. He received counseling and meds. We did not bail him out. I know how you feel... . this seems like a never ending road.  You are a remarkable person. Just keep thinking that you are doing whats best for her.

So hard to hear DD on the phone, esp. when she is tearful like this evening. Oh how she hates to have to repeat herself. Little by little I will get more of the story - her version anyway. I can easily validate her missing us and us missing her. She wrote gd a letter, and I will work with gd to do letter to her mom tomorrow. I also told her I would register to visit, and overcome my own issues with the visit format. Checking online I need to find a sitter for gd to make these visits. Need to reach out somewhere for this - the neighbors all say NO for past year or so. The summer teen sitter is gone for rest of summer. And I need to work too. Aghhhhhh.

It so quickly morphs from being there for DD to being here for me.

DD has accepted that we are not going to provide bail. She agreed when I said 'you are going to spend some time in jail, may as well be now",  Her fear is it will be 365 day sentence when all the 3 incidents are combined. I am encouraging her to talk openly with her public defender. To call her - it is a free call from the jail. To be assertive with her. That they do not want to talk to me -- she is an adult.

And then there is the tiny, newborn raccoon DD rescued yesterday that did not survive at the wildlife rehab center. I did not have the heart to tell her the babe died. Was euthanized after they left her overnight for the mom raccoon to find - got too cold and dehydrated. After DD had nursed from a glove with milk and kept this babe warm for 10 hours in a pouch at her waist. I am so sad that they did not feel they could give resources for the every half hour feedings, keep caged over the winter, and then face low chance for setting free next spring. Don't know where else I could have taken this little babe. I guess I believed in something that was not there.

How do I tell DD about this?

It is late. Gotta get gd out of tub to bed. Thanks for your thoughts and prayers, and just someone who gets how hard this is.

qcr

Qcarol, So sorry for you and your family.  You made the right decision not to bail her out.  I suspect you have done that on many occasions before.  Have you spoken to her attorney about a psych eval and getting her into resident treatment as part of her probation?  A Judge would look favorably on that, I believe.  I see she has a daughter.  Have you talked to an attorney about getting permanent custody?  She's only 8 and has her whole life ahead of her.  It doesn't need to be ruined by an extremely ill parent.  I know because I've seen it with my SD and gD.  We could get my hubby's ex to agree to take action and our gD has now lost her childhood. At the same time, family and abuse counselors were urging us to do so and even offered to go to court with us. 

My heart goes out to you. You are in my prayers.

Qcarol,

You will find peace inknowing she is safe and you have a chance to put yourself back together... . taking care of yourself first.  God will do whats best for all. Have faith.   That time injail will provide some healing time for her too.

It also saddens me that your neighbors wouldnt help you out with gd.  I dont understand that.

JMK - yes, we have bonded her out before. So I know to stay away from the arraignment hearing at the jail tomorrow. The time we did not bail her out, and got a restraining order in our fears of reprisal from her if a friend bonded her out, was such a painful time. She lived on the streets for almost 2 years (2009 - 2011) Guess there is pain and suffering in every direction during these low parts of her cycle.

We do have permanent custody of gd, who has always lived with dh and I. DD has been in and out of her life, as Dd has been in and out of our home. I do know that her love for gd keeps DD getting up every morning. One of my prayers is for DD to get mental health treatment - she has been close in the past month of distress from the loss of this bf - and be able to grow a more consistent, healthier r/s with her little girl. Accepting that she is always going to be the non-custodial parent is not in her realm of reality yet.

And there has been contact from gd's daddy. He is finally in a recovery program, and has been there for about a month, in another state. He left when GD was very young - he helped us get custody before he left knowing this was the best for his daughter. Gd is also his guiding light to get up each day. I have great fears about his desire to have contact with her if he makes it back to our state. And coping with DD's anger when we put restrictions and boundaries in place if this should happen. We do have support for gd with a T and pdoc (she has ADHD as both her parents do, plus lots of anxiety -- not sure what is the family situation and what may be genetic or neurological development).

Hard to find the balance with my compassion and desire for connection with all the parties involved here. The idea of suggesting to her lawyer a residential  dual-dx treatment  directly from jail is a good one. Not sure they will do this for misdemeanor charges. There is not such a program in our county, and this is a county level prosecution. She does have medicaid to help with some of the costs if it continues for her while she in the system. Outpatient care is just not there on a daily basis for her, and when she has a good day (or a vengeful one) she moves away from treatment options. Her denial is powerful.

lovesjazz - yes, I daily am giving DD up to God. It still is hard and painful, easier on some days than others. Have many others praying for our family too. I can see that the current jail outcome for DD is the path that she needs to be safe, for others triggering her BPD rage to be safe (ie bf and others that surround him) and for her to move toward participating in treatment. There is lots of support for her while in jail, if she chooses to ask for it. They often focus too much on the substance use issues and miss the underlying mental health. DD was in jail overnight only a month ago (first harassment/dv charge with bf) and was on suicide watch the whole time. Perhaps this history will give the jailers and court a different perspective. I did take her meds to jail - they will make her take them daily.

Our neighbors were there often for us when DD was homeless and not allowed at our house. They were there for us in the first year she returned - part of the safety plan for gd. DD cycled into a rage in 6-8 week pattern. Dh and I could not bring ourselves to turn her out homeless again as she was slowly making some progress during her calm cycles. I realize now that we have strong denial - mostly about the drug use going on under our noses. When the bf "G" from last year attacked DD in a meth induced rage (DD was trying to break up with him - she did provoke his actions in many ways) the neighbors withdrew. Including denynig Gd playing with their kids. Gd is so lonely in our neighborhood. Only in the past 2 months since we evicted DD again have they been more open to allowing gd some play time with their kids. No one is allowed to come to our home to play. This is so hard for a young child to understand.

The situation really deteriorated starting in Feb 2013 when her bf's mental state went into decline and they entered a breakup-makeup cycle. He was no longer allowed in our home. We have had trouble setting strong boundaries around her bf being in our home since she was 15. We enforced the boudnaries about bf in the house starting in Feb when bf"M" first broke up with her. We called police to have him leave once in March when they were on make-up phase. DD was not allowed back in our home starting May1st when I was just done with her threats against me. She and "M" were living in friends apt. Something bad went down there in June that pushed things more out of control -- and DD into a much more vulnerable, internalzing her pain place. I have never really seen her in this place for more than a few hours before. Then yesterday morning she had put her armour on again after a month of being more open to her vulnerable side. Then a confrontation with bf, and back into jail.

Very complex.

We are hoping for a respite. Will know more after court tomorrow. I will call when results get into system tomorrow evening.

Sharing my story here since 2009 -- this has saved me so many times. Thank you all for listening, sharing your stories, giving me encouragement. We are a story based people, needing connections with each other for our very survival. I strongly believe this as I understand more and more how intertwined our physical, intellectual, emotional and spiritual selves are.

qcr  

update:

DD has a bond and get it that we think she needs to stay and serve some time as this will be credited to her when she sees the judge for sentencing. Don't know when that will be. Her next hearing on the charges is set for Thursday,

Am encouraging her to ask for what she needs, though she perceives that jail staff 'do not care, will not answer'. She did call and leave message with public defender office for her lawyer to contact her. I repeated the phone number about 10 times to her during final minute of our call last night (1 minute warning given - 15 minute max per call). She really wanted me to call lawyer, which I said will not work as she is an adult.

She tried to call back last night after her angry call. I did not get to the phone in time, and dh doesn't get how my phone works with no labels on the buttons. (he is very smart but computer and cell phone resistant). Said she did not want to go to sleep with anger between us. I apologized for missing the phone assuring her it was not intentional. Understand she is under a lot of stress.

She is in dorm 'pod' that requires classes. These are mandatory. I think she gets to choose from a list. She is signing up for job skills and mental health program of some kid.  |iiii  :)  I suggested she keep an open mind and try to get something out of them. And besides, gives her something to do and think about the rest of the day.

During phone call today I was able to ask her questions about her life in jail - did pretty good with being validating for a change. Even though I was at work, had to delay a meeting, and had limited time so could make it ontime to meet gd's school bus. I was able to set aside these frustrations and really focus on her call.  :) Can visit tomorrow - gd has playdate set up for afternoon. Can't decide if I am up to a whole 1/2 hour of conversation with her talking via phone with glass wall between us. Thinking I will wait until next week for my first visit. We really cover all the details on the daily phone calls.

Her being in jail could be more costly than her living at home. Think her county benefits will be suspended if she is there more than 30 days. Each call is $2.35 on prepaid account linked to my cell phone. She has asked for commissary money for personal care items. I told her we can do $30 a week. Either as cash to her account, or a 'gift box' ordered online through approved vendor. I have to kindly stick to the budget we have set. Dh and I decided this was an appropriate way for us to support her while she is in jail - we are being there for her, not abandoning her. And it just plain feels good. She has been trying so hard this past month to stay connected with us even while struggling with such intensely overwhelming fears and emotions.

Remind myself daily - and dh reminds us too - we cannot predict the future. We can only live in today. There is a great potential for good to come out of all this pain that each of us are experiencing in our own ways. Keep those prayers coming - DD is being vulnerable as never before.

qcr  

qcr:  You continue to be in my thoughts and prayers, as are your dd, gd and dh.  Your wisdom and patience are an inspiration.  I hope you are able to get some good sleep while dd is safely housed and fed.          swampped

Hi, qcarolr   

You may be right; there really may be potential for good to come out of all of this. Maybe she needed to hit bottom to change her attitude, and maybe the classes she takes in jail will also turn on some sort of switch in her head to make changes... . I've told this story before that it was a crazy bunch of horrible things that caused my dBPDs36 to decide to consider suicide this past February, which set off the process that had him end up finally in the Dual Diagnosis Program that I've wanted him to be admitted to for the last more than 10 years or so. God did orchestrate this "comedy of errors" that seemed so tragic at the time that ended up as a blessing. I really feel this could be happening for your daughter; if you'd had control over her circumstances that ended her up in jail today, I bet you would've made sure none of it had happened. So, maybe God orchestrated it to happen without your knowing it... . Stay strong, be at peace, things are going the way the Universe wants it to. You and your family are still in my prayers... .

   Rapt Reader

Good for you... . I know I have had to set really strong boundaries with my dd.  It is hard but I figured I wasn't helping her any way.  Now, this time around.  I am going to let her stay with me awhile.  We couldn't do it last time and she found her way.  YOUR daughter will be alright and as Rapt Reader pointed out the universe is conspiring to make it happen perfectly for her.  However, it may turn out. 

I learn so much from all of you. 

Thanks you

Fay

Qcarol,

When our son was in jail, we put money in the commisary for personal items,  and the phone. We supported him  that way. I believe it was set up that he could only call us and not a string of friends. He was in for a year. Honestly, I believe it was good for him and iknew he was safe.

|iiii Those are all good signs!

You are right, qcr, there is no predicting the future; nurture this connection and vulnerability as long as possible. I believe it may be a giant step forward towards your dd getting on the right path toward healing. I wouldn't be surprised if this stage gets interrupted sooner or later by some event, however it might become a huge building block for the future!   

Thanks swampped, Rapt reader, fay, lovesjazz, and pesio for the encouragment.

Practicing patience to wait for court to proceed another step before I suspend her phone. Need to go get a replacement food stamp beneift card -- not in her stuff I got from police station. At least she signed an authorization recently for me to be able to do this. Gd can benefit from the food stamps left. Don't know how this is impacted if she is there more than 30 days. Will ask when she gets her sentence.

She called to thank me again for the gift package of food - she got it today even though I ordered late yesterday. Plus she got her personal hygiene stuff she requested. She struggles to do the math - did not know if she overspent on her order Sunday.

She also went to two classes today. Job skills and Living skills. She has more classes she signed up for on Thursday. She doesn't remember what they are exactly.

I know there will be trying times - she gets really bad PMS sometimes. But maybe things will be more stable since they are giving her meds. daily and she has to take them or suffer loss of privileges.

So this is her rtc experience. I actually hope she gets at least 90 days, and then probation if released at less than a year.

Thanks again. qcr  

qcr   

Thank you for keeping us up to date.

You started with:


Me too.

sending you and yours Cheers,

Vivek        

She is in Gods hands. Pray to accept his will in all of this for he knows best... . peace to you

qcarolr:

Please listen to lovesjazz.  None of us ever thought we'd be relieved that our kids would one day be jailed. (We thought our biggest worry was  figuring out how to pay for Harvard or Juilliard.)  We never envisioned in a million years that we'd sleep soundly knowing they were incarcerated, only because our nightmares of a much worse fate for them would be put on hold, at least until they were released.

A terrible sickness has our formerly well-adjusted, happy, bright, laughing children in its grip.

You said you need a respite.  Take it.

Missed having time to be on boards past couple days. Need to catch up! An update on DD27.

She has done really well past week. In dorm pod required to take classes - I have looked up and think it is a jail/transistion program. She has been very open to the messages of the first 3 class session in life skills. She has called each day in more positive mood, accepting her stay there as a positive toward getting out and back on probation.

She got along with all 24 other women in her dorm. They supported her in giving different ways to look at exbf pressing charges against her last Friday. I think he pursued contact with her, and then calling police for violation of RO. I will get copy of police report next week for my own verification. This support from peers has allowed her anger to subisde and pondering her part vs. his part to begin. One of her comments was the 'this is mostly older women, my age, so there is less fighting and we are getting along."

Then she called yesterday evening that she had a new skin infection, and was not getting any treatment. The nurse had looked at it - 3 days after DD signed the slip for medical attention. Then she could not give her anything for it without doctor -- this has taken many days in past jail times. She was worried - knows how to treat this as has MRSA history and it can really bad really fast left untreated. I found her antibiotic rx that she keeps on hand and drove it to the jail last night. The night nurse would not accept it since the date was more than 30 days ago (her last infection was in April). I called the refill line to get a bottle for today with current date. Had suggested that DD put heat on it, even if just a paper towel sitting my the sink.

This morning she called - the pain, redness, swelling, hardness, etc was bad. There were limited paper towels, and no cloth towels for her use. The other women were ostrasizing her in fear of the infection being contagious (which it can be if MRSA). So dh and I chose to post bond and bring her home. With the meds and heat it has started draining tonight and will now heal. The pain is better also. She is very very appreciative for our care, and wants to work to continue on a positive path. This means finding support to keep moving, to stay away from her old friends, to be a part of our family. Gd8 was overjoyed to have her mom home. Maybe she will be able to sleep all night in her own bed again.

In waiting for DD's release today there was a woman on the phone talking about a women's transistions program for inmates. I asked her about it - she is a volunteer yoga instructor going into jail to do a class. SHe gave me a card for free yoga classes for released inmates. After 10 classes she gives certificate (and free yoga mat) that can be given to probation officer as part of compliance options if they are in a transistions program or female inmate program. She listed off all these acronyms that my mind did not hold onto. I believe she is an   giving me guidance in advocating for DD in court. To build on the confidence I see in her today.

I looked online and can see the JET transistion program as what DD was doing in jail. My concern is that by bailing her out, she will no longer qualify for this program? DD has given me permission to talk with her public defender on Monday to ask for this at her hearing on Tuesday. DD wants new friends - and can see that she is a good person that can make new friends. She made friends in jail that also want to find a better life.

We ncan benefit with DD here - for herself and for each of us and for the doggies. She can do this with a support network that she can be connected with. I cannot walk or bathe the dogs due to my back problems. And I really want them to be DD's responsibility -- and to teach gd to take responsibility. I need to step back from this as a first step in setting better personal care boundaries for myself. (I will do a new thread on the help reading "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend is giving me this time. I read it a few years ago and set it aside - could not process what they were saying. Now I can)

Hoping this positive week in jail will be enough for judge on the harassment charges, plus accepting her request to reinstate the DWAI probation. Hoping for probation in the transistion program outside the jail.

Thank you for all the thoughts and prayers. All things seem to be coming together for good - out of a very bad situation. I have to trust that this is the best path for now. The isolation that was happening from this infection would undo all the positives that I am seeing.

qcr  

And my desire for respite did not come. DD asked for our support with prepaid phone - she did not abuse this. And asked for food with protein as jail serves high carb diet that is hard for her (she is pre-diabetic with weight issues). This was going to cost us more than her being at home and we are so out of money. Just keep praying she can get the support network in place to keep moving forward and stay away from old friends.

qcr |iiii ?

Thanks for the update qcr,

It's too bad the jail system could not properly take care of your dd medically and diet-wise... . She seemed to be making real progress.

Let's hope she will not slip through the cracks now that she is out and that there is some program that will be  a good fit for her... .

It so good to hear that you are all getting along well and everyone is happy at the moment - I pray that you can keep the emotional connection while keeping peace and order in your house... .

Please tell about the Boundaries - will look for that thread (I loved that book, and wonder what others think of it. Just got my very own copy from a used book sale for $2 SO excited!)

Hi qcr,

I am glad you brought her home. If they couldn't care for her, she shouldn't have been there. You are wise enough to be careful being a rescuer.

Boundaries is an excellent thing to revisit. And something I could read more about.

Glad also that gd was happy to see her mom 


Vivek

ps can you do yoga too? you do need some respite   

DD has been wanting to do yoga with me for a long time. I even got a DVD that has yet to enter the disc tray! Don't really know my resistance. Think it has to do with my desire for her to 1. be more independent of me 2. make new friends without me in the way 3. i am tired and fearful of increased pain.

And I also know these are all excuses to not take care of myself and to avoid building this new r/s with my DD. What is the willfulness really about? Im not worthy -- need to better focus on this in with my T. So easy to use up the whole time talking about events and avoiding painful issues within myself.  That 'time to quit studying and start doing' stuff.

qcr :)

DD infection doing better. We had one blow up, I was able to keep returning to calm and DD was able to tell me more directly some underlying issues with me that push her emotions. Have to ponder a bit to recall - not taking the time right now. Then we went our seperate ways. She apologized for yelling, I apologized for avoiding.

DD and gd are doing great together, and the doggies are happy to see her. Gd and DD gave them both baths tonight, and I don't have to clean up the mess  :)

I have been doing pretty good using better strategies with gd - requesting her to use questions instead of a statement or demand - and this really difusses her. I notice DD starting to follow this example. Also changed gd's med time from morning to noon with better self-control from her in evening. After a week changing to 3pm for 2 weeks before school. I need the Intuniv to work through bedtime, and for the drowsiness that has come midday to be at bedtime. I do think this has helped with us all being more calm -- gd less defiant. Just resistant now. Not running away, just walking very very slowly -- but she is coming.

A little anxious about the several appts. need to get DD to this week. have to work that there is not more than one place to call or go per day. She gets overwhelmed then angry. And she is more fatigued with the healing of this infection.

Better be getting to bed now.

qcr    

I struggle with this too. I avoid doing the things that I know will bring rewards... . eg get up and go for a walk in the morning. Instead I loll about in bed, even when I have had enough sleep.

For me, I think it's a combination of things. 1) I want someone to come along and save me from myself. If I get up and get going, than I am acting responsibly, taking care of myself and enjoying life - it's much easier for me to wallow in self pity. 2) I do not have a life routine of caring for myself. My default is to look to doing things for others rather than myself. So, taking care of myself is not a part of how I think.

Both these reasons add up to the fact that I am not yet meeting my own emotional needs sufficiently. I need to grow up and take care of myself. Stop waiting for someone to rescue me, stop expecting someone else to meet my emotional needs. Be brave and face the world... . blah blah blah.

I wish my dd and I could do yoga together - but only in a class with a teacher. To do it with a dvd would not be productive for us... . too much judgemental thinking ... .

Good news on dd's more responsible behaviour. Good results with gd too. Enjoy the good times 

Vivek    

When DD was pregnant with gd I signed us up for a pre-natal swim class in next town. It was at warm therapy pool in rehab center at hospital. I really did not want to go at all, yet knew DD would not go without me. It was good for her - she was battling too much weight. It was good for me to get excercise that warmed my body. After gd born, set up to do local swim class. There was thunderstorm 1st session - cancelled after we were all ready to get in pool. I didnot  go back with her, even though she wanted to go. She was unable to go on her own. It was too much work in the evening for me -- that was my excuse anyway.

Feel like I let DD down this way over and over. Offer her something she wants - feel overwhelmed by one more obligation to plan - say no after I said yes. I still do this with everyone, including myself, almost daily. Even though I know this inconsistency is harmful, I still do it. Then I get twisted thinking - personalize and blame mostly. Then have to find ways to untwist that thinking. This takes extra effort too.

Seems I am mostly just worn out.

DD was overwhelmed this afternoon after being OK this morning. We walked doggies in the rain with gd running along. [dh went nuts tonight - super hyper, distractible, impulsive -- realized it was that 30 hour mark coming off her Intuniv that I forgot at noon. shut off alarm and went on with my day. Also took her to horse riding class that doesn't start until tomorrow. YIKES]

Turns out she had UA - the center told her she will most likely have to take DV classes (domestic violence) that her medicaid will not pay for, added to the alchol/drug treatment classes. And she wants to take life skills and job skills classes. plus yoga classes. And she struggles to get there on the bus. expects me to drive her. So i get overwhelmed too. Not a good time in the car on way home from UA.

She is also worrying about court tomorrow. Not sure what this hearing at jail is called, but don't think it is the pleading or sentencing hearing. That has always been at the courthouse in the past. I will go with her tomorrow - I am the driver. By bus this is 3 connections and extra 2 hours journey. She would do it if she had too, be so hot and stressed by the time she got there, no thinking ability left at that point. I get it why she needs my driving support to make appts. but takes so much from my other responsibilities. If Dh can take on some, he does after work or before work. Will be better when gd gets back to school in 3 weeks.

We stopped in a parking lot, I went into store, then we were able to talk about all this being overwhelmed. Decided we need bigger family calendar by the week, with a 4 lines of boxes. One for each family members needs. Being overwhelmed 'at a glance' (the brand of calendar I usually buy!) And if she fails - off to jail again.

So being able to be somewhat validating and both of us attempting to hold each other accountable after the yelling. Doing the repairs to our r/s on a daily basis -- away from gd too.  Told DD that I am looking for the good to come from all this bad. She just raised her eyebrows. Romans 8:28 is one of my prayers for this belief. It can often work out this way. Hitting bottom motivates to do the work to move in new direction. So my goal is to support, not enable, DD to keep movitated.

Thanks for listening to my story tonight.  

qcr  

I just had a thought qcr... . it may not be helpful, but I hope it is. I was just thinking about you juggling your dd's schedule and acting as her taxi etc. That's hard enough but then trying to remind her of what is her next appt and getting her ready to get there by bus or with you, must be a right royal pain.

I have a sometimes busy schedule that I need to keep track of. I use my phone. I have a calendar on my phone that I use and I put everything onto my calendar. If I have an appointment, my phone sends me a message an hour before the time, so I can make sure I get there ok and on time. If I need to I can make the appointment alarm shorter, eg 10 mins before an appointment. Maybe your dd doesn't have that feature, but if she does - that could be a solution to her beginning to keep better record of her appointments. The phone displays my appointments for the day on the face of my phone too, so I can see what I am doing ahead of time, easily.

cheers,

Vivek    

ps Using Google, my diary and dh's can be synchronised to avoid any clashes.

DD has the only smartphone in the house. Technically, DD could learn to use her calendar feature. I would be lost without my phone calendar reminders -- well still get lost but that distractibility is another matter :)

My intuition is that DD wants someone to go with her as a support person. It can be me or a friend. Right now there are no friends - they are all with exbf that has RO against her. She also invites me into some meetings so I can 'ask the right questions' and listen in case she doesn't get something. I can clarify later.

Sounds manipulative - sometimes it probably is part of her denial or avoidance. Other times it is real due to her NLD. I cannot get inside her mind to know. This is one of hardest parts in my r/s with her. What is she able to do, how to step back for her to do it, and what does she really need support with.

On my side - what is my rescuer instinct, what is my need to feel needed. What is that case manager inside me that can advocate for her and validate her. How to be a guide and not a servant? My need for her to just get on with it - to magically be independent overnight.

I have been trying to get her to connect with a case manager for years. How to get her to work with someone enough to build a trusting r/s - or is that possible for her yet? How to support her 'motivation of the moment' to get her connected with the people in the programs that can help her get a job, and place to live and then a car (she loves to drive - gives her a sense of power and control in her life - attracts people to her side that need a ride though these are not true friends - no license until next March due to DWAI).

In these areas she is so much like an adolescent of about 13, maybe even 11 at times. Wanting to be independent without the mental and emotional skills and stability to do it. At age 27, it seems a slow tedious process for all of us.

This is so about relationships, and the true limits on ability to acquire the stability and skills to have stable r/s with BPD. I need to find ways to refill my tank so I can walk with her through this time. Her attitude of wanting to do the work is here now - I can nuture it like a seed in hard soil. Need to tend it, fertilize it, water it, cut away the weeds so the sun can shine in. Breathe on the plant that starts to grow - breathe in a fresh scent as it blooms.

Going to do the flower meditation as soon as dh gone to work while gd still sleeping.

qcr  

"I struggle with this too. I avoid doing the things that I know will bring rewards... . eg get up and go for a walk in the morning. Instead I loll about in bed, even when I have had enough sleep.

For me, I think it's a combination of things. 1) I want someone to come along and save me from myself. If I get up and get going, than I am acting responsibly, taking care of myself and enjoying life - it's much easier for me to wallow in self pity. 2) I do not have a life routine of caring for myself. My default is to look to doing things for others rather than myself. So, taking care of myself is not a part of how I think.

Both these reasons add up to the fact that I am not yet meeting my own emotional needs sufficiently. I need to grow up and take care of myself. Stop waiting for someone to rescue me, stop expecting someone else to meet my emotional needs. Be brave and face the world... . blah blah blah."

Dear Vivek ... . get out of my head!  Just said all this to myself this morning. I too enjoy sleeping and curling up with a cool pillow in the morning.  It is also very peaceful. But it is time to grow up and take better care of myself.

Hi h4h, sorry about the head business... . I know, I know, and I promise to stop this mental telepathy ... . but it is fun isn't it?  *)

I slept in until 7.30am this morn (well I am on hols), and extra 40 mins dozing. Mmnnn so nice. But I did still get up and walk and do all the things I should do to start the day.

I bought an 'essential oil' called motivation. It's very expensive. I do feel more energised when I dab it on. I don't care if it's a placebo effect or what. I allowed myself to fall into a slump ... . all part of the process of grieving I think. Now I hope I am coming out the other side. Gee I hope so.

qcr... . do you think that allowing herself to be 'in charge' of the appointment diary will help her begin to accept responsibility? That doesn't mean you don't accompany her, just that she has to consciously ask you if you can when the appointments are made. And then she has to follow up to see if you are ready beforehand... . ? I understand that this would be hard for her. Perhaps you could start by 'holding her hand' while she inputs the info into the calendar for a couple of weeks, a gradual transition to a more independent way of operating.


My intuition is that it is supportive to accompany your dd. But that it is enabling to accept responsibility for when and how it happens and it is of course enabling to speak for her. This can be a learning opportunity each time can't it? An opportunity to learn how to negotiate the system and work with people. Do you discuss beforehand what the meeting is for etc? Do you discuss it afterwards? These are learning opportunities. This legal/justice system is a complex thing, so is the medical one etc. If she can learn how to use the systems to manage them herself, to accept responsibility for making appointments, getting their, arranging your company, discussing what will occur and what has happened, then that has to be good.

Make sense?




So good  . I am going to build regular meditation into my day. Just have to figure out how... . it needs to be on a regular schedule for my mind to stick to doing it... .

lotsa best wishes,

Vivek    

qcr,

Thank you for sharing what's going on; it will probably be a lot of work for dd and for your family. It could get overwhelming really fast... . And to keep track of who is responsible for what, and support dd in managing her life without you enabling... . Would it be helpful to put it all on paper and tackle it one issue at a time separately from another? Maybe have a chart?  Do you think your dh could help in providing structure?

Just a quick note on dd's schedules: is she visual at all? Maybe an actual calendar sheet for each week (big one) where she could record all of her appointments and schedules in color might help her. Is she into routines at all? (If so, sitting down at the end of the week to plan the next could help her tremendously - do you think that is something she might like and something you could help her with? And then, she could refer to it every evening/morning to know what it happening)

It might be part of her life skills classes... . Good time management is actually the harder part of the executive functioning and builds on material organization.

And another note on your committing to something and then not doing it because it is too much: the Boundaries book has a good advice on that, they say that if you are not sure about wanting to do it or fitting it into your schedule, it is better to say no... .

Thinking of you, qcr, hoping the 'system' can provide some support and help your dd start getting on with her life... .    

For whatever reason, DD is almost always last to come before the judge at this arraignment stage. At least there were two others there that felt 'forgotten' as well. They weren't on the sheriff's list, but were in the DA's file pile. Crazy, with misdemeanor can't talk to public defender on this charge until talk to DA about their offer. Then can ask to talk to PD. New rules. So 2pm hearing, got her turn at 4pm. Will meet with PD and return to court on 8/15. Have to find care for gd as sitter is not available in Aug.

I blew up tonight - just an overload steam release. It was really ugly. But got energy to clean up some messes bugging me. Think dh and gd have forgiven me - and the dogs.

I think DD will be required to apply for PACE program, a dual-dx probation program. I will help her work out the bus for this. I have to get my life back.

Also, summer lack of routine is very hard for me. Gd schedule for only half day totally messes with my work. And then all the appts for dd. I am so ready for the 6 hour school day to start on 8/22.

quick meditations from dbtselfhelp,com called Be Mindful of Hands. my favorite is Be a Flower.  2minutes. check it out. music too.

www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/be_mindful_of_hands.html

Thanks for being here for me.

qcr  

DD and I talked about calendar for just her appointments. she seemed to hear the crisis T last month suggest to get up and have a plan for the day. I need to get this going with her. She asked for only one week at a time (the family calendar in the kitchen is a month at a time. She needs big boxes to fit her handwriting.

I think this is a good start. We could also include the bus route, times, etc on this calendar, and purpose of meeting if applicable. Even If I drive her the first few times, the bus schedule is valuable for the future.

DD has a couple of friends in the big city nearby. They have come and picked her up in past - only sees them a couple times a year. They each have wanted her to take the bus to them. She is terrified of getting lost, missing connections, etc. So is in panic attack mode by the time she gets there - in the past this has happened. Then she cannot enjoy being there, or work on building the r/s. Was amazed she shared all this with me today driving to jail courtroom.

We are going camping 4 days next week with gd and some other family. DD is going to 'house sit/dog sit'. She asked if one of her city friends could come to the house to hang out. I told her I am happy for her to have this company - keep out away from toxic friends. The other good thing is the crabby, dog-hating neighbor has retired and moved away just last week. So no more police calls on our dogs barking. And the next door neighbor that has also complained about dogs recently (they were barking at nesting raccoons under our shed I think) are out of town too. Will have neighbor on call for dogs if for some reason DD is gone and dogs are barking. Told DD would leave their phone #s for emergency. We will be out of range for cell most of the time camping. WOOHOO!

Work is nuts too -- need a break. The marital emotional blackmail is in full swing again. Employee wife wants to fire new front counter person, owner hubby hired her and want to keep her. Glad to get out of that rat race for a bit. As the office manager/bookkeeper I get pulled into the personnel piece of this. Dh thinks I need to find another job. Not ready to add that stress yet.

qcr  

Can anyone go on the first trip to the city to visit friends with her and point out landmarks along the way?

Can you copy a google map of the bus route and mark it out with highlighter so she can carry it with her?

Do you have bus stop numbers that you she can count off before she gets to the stop?

Can she text her friends when she expects to get to the stop so they can meet her?

The fear of getting lost is easy for me to understand. It is a fear of the unknown and is panic inducing... . but to achieve a trip on your own is a big success - a step towards independence.

Camping is such a good idea - such good fun   I hope the bears don't get you! They drop down out of the trees here, did you know? 

here's cheers big ears! happy hols here they come 

Vivek      

q--

I am glad to hear you are going camping. I find that camping slows down the things that need slowing. It will be great for gd, your dh and YOU.

I have been thinking about this paragraph from a posting further up in this thread:


I have heard my husband tell me that his late wife had the same issue... . saying yes when she wanted to say NO, however, in her case she would say yes and follow through but would be mad at the world as she completed her promises.

The times in my life I have felt compelled to say yes (for whatever reason) when I really wanted  to say no have lead me to the conclusion that I don't want to feel like that. It feels really awful- awful to disappoint another with a yes that becomes a no and equally awful to involve myself in doing something I really don't want to do... . worse to have volunteered for my own misery.

There is also a piece of this that involves being OK with disappointing others by being honest about our own limitations. I think this has to do with self-esteem.

There is also a piece of this that involves how not OK our BPD loved one are with hearing NO, handling disappointment, getting those hopes dashed without falling apart.

How does a person learn that their world will not fall apart if their hopes are dashed? I think they learn from living this experience. They learn that they can distract themselves from the pain of their disappointment by being disappointed and living through it.

In my SD's case, her Mom would say yes... . certainly said yes to SD- my husband reports that it was consistently yes. SD learned that yes was great for her but not so great for her Mom. She never learned how to live with the no once people in her life began having to say it to her, as her requests became more impossible, more harmful to SD, more outrageous in their sense of entitlement, SD got more and more confused about how things work in the world. I think an important part of this for her, the self esteem damaging part was in feeling great about outcomes at the expense of another's happiness. That would make me feel really crappy about myself... . no doubt about it.  

SD is very perceptive. There is NO WAY she didn't see the mental process her Mom went through when doing something in a begrudging fashion. She loved her Mom but how invalidating it must have been for her to have that person she loved being grumpy about doing something for her (or with her.)

I know this is different from what you have written about (saying yes and then changing your mind) but both involve the invalidation piece... . I imagine your DD feeling confused... . "Mom said yes but disappointed me with a no after I got all excited about this or that."

I work up philosophical this morning I guess! I would love to hear thoughts about this.

Thursday (on Thursday)

Thursday -  

You have shared this in such a clear way that really resonates with my own experiences. It really damages self on all sides - the indecision to begin with; the wish that other would just stop asking so the yes with resentment or the no with sorrow is avoided.

Keeping the thinking process silent in my head -ie. asking for time to 'think about it' before giving any reply is certainly a worthy option. I think some of my problem comes from giving an impulsive, emotional mind response before my thinking mind can get engaged. Dh and I were talking about this last night (well I was talking and he mostly listened). So often the neuroscience research states that we have about 90 seconds to get our thinking involved before we act out of the emotinal inpulses. For me, I do this often. Then the thinking kicks in, and I retract that first response. It is so confusing for everyone.

And yet, I struggle to get into 'wisemind' - that is what it takes. To stop and think before I react.

Yesterday afternoon a conflict came up for our schedule this morning with unexpected reminder about DD court at 9am.  Gd's horse camp starts at 9am a half hour drive away from court. I got all the physical signs of distress - breathing faster and more constricted is first. Then reached for my phone without really thinking of all alternatives to call dh to solve this for me. He could not be late for work -his boss was gone today. My emotional level was rising - talking a little louder as I processed this outloud with DD. Then came up with another idea, called the instructor for gd's camp today for her to come early - this was OK. Then I calmed down. Whew.

Then DD said something like: Mom, you do this all the time. Get all worked up, get everyone around you stressed out, then you solved the probelm, relax and get over it. The rest of us are still revved up for awhile.

So maybe when something comes up I just have to get up and walk around - go outside and pick up dog poop, go to bathroom and throw water on my face, check the mail... . You get the idea. Remove my ability to react until I can respond.  I know this is a DBT strategy. Need to practice doing this -- practice saying 'I will think about it' every time I am making a decision. This is also a strategy in the love and logic books I have been reading. Though here I am practicing it on myself!

This will also help model this for gd who is very impulsive - some of this natural to being an 8 year old. I can help her practice this as a good skill to have in her life.

qcr  

On a related note... . I have this rule for myself, if I can't do something for someone with "grace,"  even though it might not be my favorite thing to do, then I don't do it.  "Grace" to me means making it a happy experience for the person being done the favor.

Soon I have to go a birthday dinner for a relative that I do NOT want to spend time with, there is no graceful way out of this.  Now I'm digging deep for the Grace to get through this dinner. 

Before big tests I'd tell myself, "no matter how dreadful at least that test will be over by 1:00, it has to end."

My current dinner plan is quietly smiling and drinking (I don't drink often.) and waiting for it to end.  That's the best I got.  Any suggestions?

Thurs: wonderful explanation there! So darned sensible    of course it's an issue I have. dd says 'mum, can I ... . ?' and I want to say yes... anything, anytime, whatever you want.' I have learnt to calm down a little but I still can say yes and think afterwards. Fortunately for me, it hasn't been difficult, but I do recognise my predisposition to jump when she clicks her fingers.

qcr: One way I could look at it would be to 1) recognise when it happened 2) identify the emotional need of mine that causes me to react that way 3) find a way to soothe myself 4) then think of a solution or ask for help to arrive at a solution.

eg 1) When it happens I feel the urge to move quickly and solve the problem, I get ants in my pants. I need to breathe calmly. 2) for me my response is anxiety. I worry that if I don't do what dd wants, I will be less able to keep her close to my heart. I worry I will lose her completely. 3) So, I have to reassure myself that I am ok, I am alive, I have a good life - yes it could be better, but that is largely out of my control. 4) I can always present my problem, eg if I am required to be in two places at once and allow the other person(s) into my problem and see if they can help me find a solution - then it is a joint exercise. By this time, I should have found a way out!

I don't need to get up and move about - to do this. I am learning to meet my emotional needs in the present. I am being mindful.

h4h: There are lots of situations I have found myself in that I have had to endure. That birthday dinner you want to avoid. I would turn it into a learning opportunity, a chance to consciously work on practising my validation skills on anyone and everyone! I would look at the others and study how they are being validating or invalidating - I would recognise and identify what they were doing. It can be an eye opening experience. And I would practise keeping my opinion to myself (and you know me, that's not so easy  ). I would limit myself consciously to two glasses of alcohol... . I want total control of myself. Things like a test - well it's the preparation that counts there. I would build a ritual for the event and work on directing my focus. I do recommend the validation opportunity - it can be fun   *)

I like your focus on 'grace'... . nice.

cheers,

Vivek      

Hi qcr, Vivek  and Thurs and everyone else. The birthday party for BPDss was postponed from last week... . and might happen tonight, but maybe not... . being flexible... . , I'd prefer if it was something more fun than a dinner so that we don't have to sit around making conversation when there are large elephants in the room, (like two pwBPDs, giving birth to and trying to raise a baby without sufficient educations and hard time keeping jobs.)  My thought is a baseball game so we can sit in a row... . I'm at the far end etc... I do keep my opinions to myself, but if I'm asked about this pregnancy I will not pretend it is a good thing.  I plan on smiling and nodding if the pregnancy is spoken about... . but please Lord do not let them ask me a direct question.  Can't say congratulations to this natural disaster.

Hope I'll be forgiven for a minor hijacking or detour of this thread. h4h

hiya h4h,

If you are asked directly I would avoid being judgemental. It won't help you at all. If it were me I would think to myself 'be humble Vivek , you don't know everything.' That's my own mantra to avoid being judgemental.

I am with you that the pregnancies are situations fraught with untold hurt and pain in the future, like minefields that have to be walked through.

I would work desperately on deflecting a delicate situation. eg "Everyone loves a baby, but I also remember the sleep deprivation" or "I remember how the hormones can throw a mother out of kilter, some people say it takes a village to raise a baby" or "Giving birth has to be the most amazing experience, your body is not your own". Stuff like that. And then there are questions you can ask: "I had great fun organising things for the baby, nappies, walker etc. How are you going getting everything ready?" "New mothers often need support from others but find it hard to accept or ask for, has any thought been given to how others could help?"

I would prepare a few well considered responses and have them written down and learnt off by heart so they become a natural response. I think I'm slow to think sometimes and would need to have this sort of preparation.

good luck there and let us know how it goes, ok?

Vivek      

qcr,

You made several interesting points. The research regarding the 90 seconds to get your thinking engaged sounds right. And the constricted breathing as the first response as well.

I think your solution is good.  |iiii

To do whatever you need to, to be able to step away mentally, take some deep breaths and think. I think that from that place, you can always integrate back into the 'wisemind'.

Another note on the saying yes, and then saying no. For me personally, that is a trigger (it undermines trust), and I speculate that for a pwBPD it is not only a trigger but probably a source of trauma - the world where 'everything goes bad eventually', world that is inconsistent (and therefore not safe), a world that does not make sense... .

It may be harder for us to say no in the first place (because of the disappointment and reaction of the pwBPD) - but in the long run, we are creating a more consistent environment for our children and we spare them the BIGGER disappointment later on.

Does that help you see 'NO' or 'I am not sure, let me think about it' in a more positive light? Do you think it will make it easier for you to avoid saying 'YES', when it may not be wise?

Memorizing responses is good. The pregnant person is not going to be there. She has managed to alienate most members of the family by raging at them or sending vicious messages.  Only my housband's son will be there and my husband plans on not mentioning the pregnancy.  Yeah fun...   Now it is supposed to be tomorrow night... . I don't think the son will be permitted to come anyways by the pregnant person.

This girl is on the edge of cracking and a baby should be just the thing to do it.

The girl is a victim of her childhood but when she is shrieking at you just lies and unbelievable foul language that is little consolation.

|iiii  It's always easier to deal with issues one at a time without them getting combined and too complicated.


You are right, you might be in for some major issues on the horizon... .

What do you think you can do to get yourself better prepared to take care of yourself, and protect your own mental and emotional space? As much as we love our pwBPD, we are not obligated to let them abuse us by screaming and foul language... .

Do you think you have energy to work on building some meaningful boundaries? It takes a while, but in the long run, it is worthwhile... .

Things were pretty bleak last night around the birthday party. A complicated story, but it did not go well and I was pretty despondent.  My husband and I had a long talk about the situation. BUT then this morning I realized that my husband after 3 years has finally accepted that his adult son had been trying to drive me out of the family and break us up since the beginning.

Finally.

But, I am way off topic and going to start a new thread.

Dear qcarolr  I hope things are going well with your daughter.

Your strength is amazing.  I'm a big fan.  

Hi to you all. I have been on a camping break - very nice. Cool and cloudy. Only dh, gd, my mom and sister. Dh got in lots of riding the mountain roads alone, we all went driving in our truck a couple times, good food... . I feel somewhat refreshed. DD stayed home, was allowed friends over. She was 'house-sitting, dog-sittin' even though she mostly lives with us. She did a good job, sorted some of her stuff and did the dishes. This was a first to come home to a house like I left it. Doggies seem really tired - friend had pup here too.

I have another thread about her skin infection - contagious - bonding her out of jail - court... . She has 2 harrassment charges now, violation of no-contact with ex-bf, plus the DWAI probation revokation. Her publid defender has gotten assigned them all. Should get resolved with sentencing on 9/5.

DD is doing well as she knows the rules and seems to have accepted them. She is grateful to be out of jail now, though knows she will most likely have to go back in Sep. I am staying out of her compliance with her probation and bond supervision. She has bus passes, and can get herself there. I am doing well with this letting go.

Am reading the book "boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend. It is supporting so much other that I have learned. It seems to be geting through how difficult the 'doing' part can be. I really have to have support around me to move into applying what I have learned - I cannot do this alone.  I so appreciate all your suggestions and support.

qcr  

 |iiii It's good to hear, qcr! Good camping trip, dd doing well at the moment, you taking care of yourself.

Wishing you a peaceful weekend.   

It may be long distance qcr, but we are all here for you. And if one of us is missing, another will step in to support you and send you best wishes,

Vivek      

Ditto what Vivek  said!   

You all are the best friends that I have never had before. You are always here, you understand as no one else can. There is trust and respect here for me as I can give my trust and respect to each of you.

The more I read and work in T, the greater there is deep seated shame and unworthiness that bubbles up for me. I have unreasonable expectations of myself, and this actually leads to my losing it over little things. How can I feel so peaceful driving home from work, and one thing that I asked to be done is not done and I get so angry.

Trying to shift responsibility to others. Dh says that I don't really let go of it, or I would not get so angry. Yet, I called to ask for his help today with gd's meds. and he did not follow through. She got them 4 hours late. And I was late with them yesterday. And I can see how it impacts her self-regulation and sleep patterns. So maybe I am really being hard on myself and taking it out on dh.

Gd is calling - she is unable to go to sleep yet. But if I miss her meds. entirely she goes totally bonkers before the next dose is due. Some rebound hyperactivity is the thought there. I feel like a pharmacist sometimes. Wish all the pills could just go away. I have tried that before and that makes it worse.

Such a whining vent tonight. Things are actually OK.


qcr  

Qcr

You are not alone in how you feel and react. So many times I have meditated, worked at being mindful, tried to see things from a different perspective and managed to get myself into a calmer, clearer place in my mind - always whilst being somewhere on my own.

When I have found that space in my mind I feel lighter, clearer, more hopeful.  I convince myself it is a kind of 'enlightenment' and that things will now be different, better somehow, because I have centred myself and I will react and respond differently to situations outside of my control in future.

Then I return to the chaos of home and descend once more into the unknown. 

My BPD husband is a hoarder and our home - well I would need to take photographs to explain it as words would not do it justice.  He half cuts the lawn, half cuts a hedge, digs holes around the edge of the property to start building work then never does any more, brings home broken bikes from the local dump, buys cars and lets them rot in our driveway etc.  In truth, the external chaos he creates is a reflection of the internal chaos of his mind.

I fight inside myself to remain calm and let things wash over me.  I try to be wiser, kinder, more patient, remember that he and my BPD son are unwell. I recall the wise words that have been shared with me here by so many experienced people.

And then I fail.  Me, the supposed healthy one.  Just as you describe, I lose control over something relatively minor.  I deal with the screaming rage, the horrible comments and the erratic behaviour but then lose it over the egg shells left in the kitchen sink or the lumps of peanut butter and jelly on the kitchen counter or the piles of papers left in the middle if the living room floor.

The reality is Qcr, we are under impossible pressure and need to forgive ourselves for being human, fallible and prone to make mistakes.  I think it is because we want so much for our families to be well, healthy, happy and functioning that we have impossibly high expectations of ourselves.  We feel that, as the supposedly healthy ones, we should be able to do it all.

The fact is we cannot.  We are breaking. And we must afford the same understanding to ourselves when we slip and fall from grace as we do to our BPDs.  After all, I don't know about you, but I certainly have some fleas and am far from perfect.

So give yourself some credit for all that you do, every day, in situations that thousands of others would find impossible.

Go kiss your GD and DH and keep up the good fight.

D

WOW - I wonder how common this need to keep broken things is with our pwBPD? Well, also with lots of people not just BPD. DD loves to search out flea-market stuff from free places for homeless and from dumpsters near college campus. She does get lots of stuff. And it ends up in my garage and basement. She feels this is her way to help out. Her favorite obsession is clothes. Dh has all the little pieces of wood and metal and hardware that he has never used on 35 years of projects. At least most of it is on shelves in shed and garage. Then gd - she is the little hoarder for real. She cannot let go of anything - trash, trinkets, rocks, bugs, toys, clothes too small or torn... . We are working on the trash part first. I am overwhelmed by it all. There is some pshycological reason for hoarding. Maybe someday I will look for more info on this and how I may be able to support others in my family to manage this. At least in our shared space.

I have a real need for uncluttered space. This gives me so much peace. An example for me is camping - one of the best parts is our little travel trailer that I can be in total control of. There is just enough space and stuff for the short time we are gone. And it is so quick to set things right after a meal or in the morning after everyone is up and ready to go. And being away there are no demands for various details of daily life. Like appointments -for DD, for Dh, for gd, for the dogs, for the house. I can turn my cell phone off, or be out of service area if I choose.

All these demands assaulted me yesterday, the first Monday back from our trip.

Pondering this maybe some of my frustration comes from my expectations of others to take responsibility for their stuff and their appts.  And then I can't let it go. I desire for them to get their needs met - how I see that needs to be? I have such a low tolerance for messes - it hurts, actually hurts, to walk through what others are to put away or take care of. Makes me fantasize about living alone! Coming to house of others for visits only.

qcr  

Dib and Qcr, you have me really thinking now.   It's interesting that we all seem to have this in common... . our pwBPD can live in chaos yet we need order.  I guess this applies physically and mentally.   Hmmmmm.   My dd is the same... . she can live in utter filth.  When she has had her own place it was disgusting... . disgusting.   And when she took out the trash she would just throw it on the ground out the back door!  Who does that?   It blew my mind. She was messy in her bedroom at home but on her own it was even worse.   And her cars... .    she has had 3 so far and never took care of any of them.   Her first one she and all her friends took Sharpie marker and wrote all over the inside of it... . doors, inside roof, seats, dashboard.   Vulgar things.   And all three cars had all kinds of trash just strewn inside.   Gross.   Now for me, like with you, I need order in order to think straight.  It doesn't have to be perfect but I need things organized for me to work.   

Very interesting observation ladies.   :)

I was reading some wonderful wise words here... . and then you started on hoarding, mess and order ... . AAAARGGGHHHH!

How I need order. Just as you have described. And yes mess physically depresses me. Thank goodness dh has learned some habits - although he is a hoarder - not as bad as those really chronic situations (my BPD sis) because I am here, but left to his own devices, I shudder to think. And he has been cleaning up his dad's house and complaining about the hoarding there, but cannot see he has a problem too! (Well maybe I have gone on so much about it, he can see it - a bit - but he still thinks he is ok... . )

Ah winge, winge, winge. I think my need for order and cleanliness and tidiness is my emotional need to have control in my life, hence my anxiety when my world is not clean, tidy and ordered. Mind you my standards have dropped immensely over the years 

ah the joys of living with others. I am rereading what Dibdob said and refocussing on keeping up the   fight. Letting go of my hangups and accepting what I can't change - with grace    (well I'm trying, very trying  lol)

Vivek  

This conversation on physical space chaos vs. order has stimulated me. It has brought me back to pondering how much I carry judgements inside my self. Brought the impact of this to the surface and is shining a light there in all my relationships. It is also about personal boundaries - asking others to respect those physical locations that I need to maintian order ie. keep your stuff off my desk, out of my bedroom, etc. This also applies at work, though I get much more open respect there than at home. And I can so easily misuse the respect at work - turn it into being bossy and judgemental quickly. I sensed this happening yesterday at work.

So this is a good thing - an awareness that my thoughts and actions are carrying judgements even as my words are saying otherwise. My internal words as well as my spoken words. So again and again I ask of myself to take the next step beyond awareness toward acceptance and questioning how to change what goes on quietly inside. Only then can this show up in my actions on the outside.

Does this make any sense?

Examples that have popped up:

DD telling me that I hold her to a higher standard than her friends. She is right, as my daughter I expect more from her. And this turns into meanness at times. This has been an issue between us for many years - since she was 15 and pushing LOUDLY for her seperateness from me and I would not let go. Actually she asked about this in more subtle ways even at age 11 as dh and I began to substitute a friend staying in our home to buffer us from her aggressive neediness. I am getting awareness - again. How to replace the judgements with... .

The couple that I do work for: I first worked at wife's business, then she wanted me to work at her husband's business and assist them with some of their personal finances. Then she sold her business with the economic downturn in 2011 and stepped into working with her H in his business. She pushed a lot of people out of his business with her way of communicating and micro-managing. See, here are my judgements. She has 'gone on strike' several times since then to try and get her way in decisions, and wanting to be given full authority over all decisions by her H. He has gradually been standing his ground with her - I have been a supporter of this. Like suggesting hiring a temp. to cover while she is taking her 'break'. That person is now a full-time employee for us since last Oct. It has finally resolved that she will no longer be working in H's business. I have been working hard to set boundaries with each of them as they come to me seperately with their complaints and requests for the other. Esp. the wife asking me to 'talk to H as he won't listen to me' with her desires. Even as I set these boudnaries it is hard to keep my judgements out of my thinking and actions with each of them. This is a real test of my desire to be more humble and to step out of the way beyond my role as the bookkeeper and office manager - the data provider only. Not a decision maker.

I practice many of my learnings at work - less emotional baggae there.

That is my story for today. What are your stories about moving away from judgement? What do you replace judgements with - that is the only way to change - to push old behaviors out with new ones - old thinking out with new patterns - then the underlying feelings and emotions can begin to change. It is emotions that trigger the thinking that creates the actions. They are all interelated - change any of these three and the other two can only change too.  Isn't this the base of so much of what we learn here? Feeling, thinking, doing. Body, mind, emotion -- spirit.

qcr  

Qcr

I love your last post, particularly the following.

It is emotions that trigger the thinking that creates the actions. They are all interelated - change any of these three and the other two can only change .

You final paragraph above clarifies to me so succinctly what happens when our BPDs dysregulate. 

You describe our behavioural process as "emotions that trigger the thinking that trigger the actions."

However I believe that our BPDs miss one vital part of that process, namely they simply have "emotions that trigger the actions" and by-pass the "thinking" stage.  This lack of cognition or thinking then leads to the chaos that rules their daily lives.

This lack of pause (thinking) could be why they find it so hard to accept their actions and fail to see any need for change.  By not having thought about what they have said or done, in their eyes they have not said or done it.

My BPDh is always denying that he has said or done things, even immediately after he has said or done them in front of other people.  My non BPDD has always said he seems to function in detachment from himself. 

I think she has something here.

D

hey dibdob have you seen this?

Wise mind: How to Stay Centered]https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=180322.0]Wise mind: How to Stay Centered  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=180322.0)

you have it in a nutshell and the link above explains a little more, in a different way.

Qcr you have it in a nutshell too!

You know being judgemental has bothered me in the past. I have found that if I practice a mindfulness exercise - just breathing and calming and focus on being present combined with a mantra for myself 'be humble' works rather well. Afterwards when I critically reflect, I try to look for my unmet emotional need and identify it (unless I can do that on the spot that is). If I understand what my unmet emotional need is, then I can figure out how to meet it for myself.

I think that reminding myself of my values (respect, acceptance and co-operation) is helpful. These are how I want to live my life. If I am being judgemental, I am being hypocritical and contravening my values. And yes, using boundaries for myself to help me maintain my values and prevent me from getting sucked into the vortex of chaos of others, is helpful.

A person of integrity isn't judgemental, I want to be a person of integrity - I won't therefore be judgemental.

So, I am able to change my thinking (I hope) and my actions (I hope) through self talk and reflection and then practising. The easiest way for me to practise is to travel on public transport and look at everyone around me and practise a silent loving kindness towards all the people in my world. There is a nasty homeless man who frequents our streets. He is obviously someone with a PD, extreme alcoholism, a woman hater, and abusive. He is in the streets I walk, begging on the pavement. This is my exemplar for assessing my judgementalism, acceptance and humility and boundaries. I have quite a way to go   

One thing I have found helpful - we are in election mode here in Aust and it is a distasteful experience for me - I have learnt to avoid that which will rile me. I am aware of what is going on, but I am avoiding that which will stir me up so that I can remain calm. That also helps avoid depression!

I'd be interested in what others have to say,

Vivek    

Rapt Reader's post today about the progress with her DS really has encouraged me. And I was putting too much of my story on her thread, so moved most of it over here. DD's openness with me the past couple days has be off guard a bit - hopeful yet cautious. If things are going too well, and I push too much of the things she is expected to be doing by others in her life, she has relapsed in the past. So need to quiet my mind, and let go let go. Even told her tonight of this need for me. She is bored, yet anxious about her court hearing on 9/5. Facing almost certain sanctions with jail time. Dh and I are pondering supporting home detention, if offered. Have to balance cost of that with cost of support we promised her while in jail. Another post for this.

She was asking me what she should be doing next today. I suggested she contact her RCC (recovery case coordinator she has done intake with - linked with mental health center but in a house not an office bldg) first. For job skills support and to connect with life skills class. Asked if she was doing her UA's and her PO meetings. She said "some of them", and she did see him while we were gone last week. She gave me the appt. card, and she actually bought a big calendar for her appoinments today. Dh hung it in the kitchen tonight, next to Gd's chore calendar and across the wall from my family appt. calendar. What a lot to take in :)

SHe went and did her UA today, and asked me to drive her to her PO meeting tomorrow morning and to her alcohol class tomorrow night. I asked if she could get the bus there. She said she needed me to help her be sure she gets there. She is not sure she would cross the street from the bus stop into the center for probation support. I asked if this is why she asks me to drive her to appointments when she can get the bus there. Yes was her reply.

I have seen this panic set in whenever we approach the mental health center. I am hopeful that once she can get connected at the mental health recovery center (not a rehab but part of her probation requirements) she can get there on her own.

The other thing is her exbf'M' that pressed the harrassment charges is in jail on for assaulting his new gf. A sense of redemtion for DD, though she wanted to write him a letter today. Reminded her of no contact order against her already, and that he is not good for her in general. Must be so hard to feel abandoned by him.

Then we talked a bit about the other exbf"G" that ended up in jail last year for assaulting DD. She believes the harrassment charges are punishment for her calling police to get help during that attack. Involving the police is a big taboo in the homeless clan. "G" has failed his probation and may be on his way to prison for 2 years. Much more harsh than the county jail. We have not been able to find out his sentence yet from last week's hearing. DD can call victim assistance and find out - maybe suggest this tomorrow if she can take on one more thing.

DD still loves all the guys that have been in her life - all of them toxic in some way for her. Well 4 of the 7 in past 10 years. All ended in some kind of domestic violence, often fueled by substance use. We talked a little about this today too. So tonight she is a little overwhelmed. She was able to say this to me when I was suggesting a dr. visit soon for her face infection that has not completely healed. Just too many appointments.

Life is just so full for all of us. How can I teach mindfulness to DD, and practice it consistently for myself. Just have to stop and do it everyday. Have to take DD with me to start doing yoga -- she has asked me to do this and I have resisted. don't know why.

Well need to go back and read Vivek 's post above, then off to bed. Thanks for listening to my story.

qcr  

I have heard that it takes 21 days for a habit to be created. So, on this basis I am trying to set aside 3 - 10 mins at the same time everyday, to do a 'mindfulness' practice, such as I have learnt to do it the course on Realistic Hope. I need to find a place where I can be uninterrupted, a seat or chair is good, to be able to claim the same place for myself is ideal. Set my phone to time myself for the amount of minutes I am allowing myself.

There are 3 things to do:

1) sit and adjust body so posture is 'correct'. Leave eyes open a little so I don't sleep.

2) focus on my breathing slowly in and out.

3) allow the thoughts to drift in an out of my mind. Acknowledge them and let them go.

So, if I can do this daily for 21 days, I have begun a habit that becomes easier and easier. The rewards have been obvious since I have started the course ... . and I haven't yet become consistent with my practice. The objective of this mindfulness practice is to become totally in the present and allow myself the possibility to practice this anywhere, anytime I want.

Perhaps you could try this with your dd? Start with just 3 mins for 1st week, 5 for 2nd week, more for 3rd week ... . if she can do it with you, maybe she can then move onto yoga as a reward?

Vivek    

Vivek  - great idea. yet, not today. DD met with her PO this morning. She has missed 4 UA's so he is submitting violation of her bond. Even as she says to me 'i have been calling except maybe a couple of hard days'. So she is trying to keep my 'on her side' - ie. not angry with her or too disappointed - and she knows she has not called.

So letting go of my fantasy today about how good she is doing. And holding onto the facts of the things she has been successful with. Just need to keep my thoughts to myself today. Can talk about it all when she meets with her lawyer on Monday.

I can do this medition practice. I have done in the past - the eyes open a little is may help and sitting up. I do tend to go to sleep. Setting a timer too. Now to find that alone time. Next Thursday gd is gone to school seven hours a day. So get that half hour before I have to get on with my day. I will let you know how it goes.

qcr   |iiii

qcarolr... . I'm really sorry that things are just so complicated right now with your daughter; it sounds like she (like my son) doesn't want to disappoint you, so she tells you mostly what you want to hear when you ask her questions (he did that all the time prior to getting his Dx and treatment). And yeah, letting go of the fantasy of our child accomplishing what we dream they will is, I think, the hardest thing to do with our pwBPD; holding onto the "TLCs"--Tiny Little Changes--for the good in our child's progress is the life saver. Our own mental health and well-being depends on our doing this. I think of it as a form of Radical Acceptance, and make myself do it every minute of every day. You're getting there... . as is your daughter   

ditto what RR says... . little changes. Yes the future is uncertain and it does hold possibilities. Yes the past was extreme and the present is better. Isn't that so? little changes.

Now, can you put a chair in your bedroom and a DO NOT DISTURB sign on the door for the 3 - 10 mins? If you build the habit (same time every day) then others will get used to it. No need to say anything to anyone - just do it. Like any boundary, if you stick to it, it will hold.

Vivek      

I've been thinking about the posts in this thread... .

The topic of chaos (hoarding) in the pwBPD, and our need for order.

If our surroundings are chaotic and cluttered, it makes it harder for us to think and keep a peaceful mind. (I speculate that it is the same for pwBPD, it's just that for some of them outside chaos/inability to keep order is part of their symptoms).

It is a challenge, but if we can keep our space ordered, it might provide some degree of peace for us, make us feel better, more centered, ready to take life head-on.

That brings us to boundaries - the literal (physical) ones of one's space, but also the other kind (our time, our values etc.). If we manage to keep ourselves well protected with healthy boundaries, I think we will not be so overly concerned with others and will be less judgmental (as our opinions will be just that - opinions, with us having no need for others to be different).

And meandering back to your DD qcr - I think also, that she is trying to please you. As she has been trying hard lately to control her behavior and 'do things right'. And I also think that the consequences for her violations/non-compliance will probably be enough for her to face. You know what is going on - do you think you can rejoice in the TLCs that your DD has accomplished, and take good care of yourself, so you can support her?

You have said that she is really trying to work hard on 'being good' - complying with your house-rules etc, and also that she has been more vulnerable with you and trying to keep a connection with you. Maybe I am wrong, but do I sense a bit of a positive shift in your r/s? What would be the ways to nurture that connection and good behavior?

Validation! Awareness of my judgemental thoughts and keeping them in my head or pour them out in T, or prayer and medition,etc. Then my heart will be open to responding to DD in sincere validation. When I am under the spell of my judgemental thinking, I tend to be a silent listener fearful of driving DD away with unintentionally invalidating comments. This silence is invalidating to her as well.

My boundaries are so much better with each person in my family, though I still get cranky when they try to give me back responsibilities that do not belong to me. This will always be part of the relationship dance. I am feeling that being more consistent in my boundaries with DD has paved the way for the TLC's with her in many ways. It lays the foundation for us to have a two-way, caring relationship. Where I can ask for help from her as she asks for help from me, and neither of us get angry with the other.

Have to keep up my self-care with enough sleep, giving back to others that which is not mine to solve (a lot of this at my job right now), excercise, food, sunshine. And slowly sorting out gd's toys - finding them a home out of my office and bedroom - teaching her to throw away/give away as I respect her need to have her 'collections'. DD's clutter is in her area of house, Dh's is in the garage and shed.

I CAN DO THIS FOR TODAY.

I have also started participating in a 12-step support group in my church while gd is in sunday school. I gained a lot when I was doing Al Anon back in 2010-2011. This new group may give me a safe outlet for some of the things I cannot share in my home - working out the non-judgemental ways of thinking and being. It will take the place in some ways of my weekly T. I am shifting that to once a month due to finances.

Thanks to each of you for your great responses and support. Things are getting worked out as they will. Dd is very worried about the PO revoking her bond. I will not have any say in her being in jail if this comes down on her. And she knows it is from her own choices. This is a TLC for her -- to begin to realize that these consequences are from her choices - in her actions and in her relationships. The harder part for her is coping with the consequences even as she is reconnecting with the exbf that is no longer high. He got arrested and is also on probation now (for hitting is new gf). And then the other exbf that hit DD last year has failed is probation and is now on his way to prison for 2 years. She got the letter today from the victim's advocate to sign up for notifications from the Dept of Corrections in our state. There is much remorse in her face -- this was also a case of bad stuff going down while everyone was high.

Maybe she will find greater strength and courage in finding her own willingness to be clean and sober? She is certainly feeling the consequences of all this that has happened while she and/or bf's have been high. So I have to have the strength and courage to allow this to be her problem. To support her in making good choices, and keep my boudnaries in place when she makes less than good choices.  DD is very clear how valuable being in our family means to her, and we have let her know how much value she can add to our family now. She really seems to accept the boudnaries so she can be here.

Gotta get back to my chores. Thanks for being here for me.

qcr  

|iiii That sounds good!


I think that as we get better and more confident with our boundaries, we are able to be more calm and less cranky. And I see from your post that you are already experiencing it. So, maybe there's hope that in time it may cease to be a part of the relationship dance... . And in the meantime, you can focus on the positive - the accomplishments you have aleady reached! And look forward to more growth and progress.


|iiii


I think that is actually a wonderful opportunity in the midst of all the sad and bad: There are painful consequences for your DD's actions (that someone other than you is imposing), you can support her through it while not being the 'bad guy'. That gives you a better opportunity to bond.

Thank you for the summary of what is going on, I think you have it down pretty good and are on a good path.

That is SO encouraging to read! Thank you again for sharing.   

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