DD in jail - how to be validating and hold her accountable for her choices

[pessim-optimist]

qcr,

Thank you for sharing what's going on; it will probably be a lot of work for dd and for your family. It could get overwhelming really fast... . And to keep track of who is responsible for what, and support dd in managing her life without you enabling... . Would it be helpful to put it all on paper and tackle it one issue at a time separately from another? Maybe have a chart?  Do you think your dh could help in providing structure?

Just a quick note on dd's schedules: is she visual at all? Maybe an actual calendar sheet for each week (big one) where she could record all of her appointments and schedules in color might help her. Is she into routines at all? (If so, sitting down at the end of the week to plan the next could help her tremendously - do you think that is something she might like and something you could help her with? And then, she could refer to it every evening/morning to know what it happening)

It might be part of her life skills classes... . Good time management is actually the harder part of the executive functioning and builds on material organization.

And another note on your committing to something and then not doing it because it is too much: the Boundaries book has a good advice on that, they say that if you are not sure about wanting to do it or fitting it into your schedule, it is better to say no... .

Thinking of you, qcr, hoping the 'system' can provide some support and help your dd start getting on with her life... .    

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[qcarolr]

For whatever reason, DD is almost always last to come before the judge at this arraignment stage. At least there were two others there that felt 'forgotten' as well. They weren't on the sheriff's list, but were in the DA's file pile. Crazy, with misdemeanor can't talk to public defender on this charge until talk to DA about their offer. Then can ask to talk to PD. New rules. So 2pm hearing, got her turn at 4pm. Will meet with PD and return to court on 8/15. Have to find care for gd as sitter is not available in Aug.

I blew up tonight - just an overload steam release. It was really ugly. But got energy to clean up some messes bugging me. Think dh and gd have forgiven me - and the dogs.

I think DD will be required to apply for PACE program, a dual-dx probation program. I will help her work out the bus for this. I have to get my life back.

Also, summer lack of routine is very hard for me. Gd schedule for only half day totally messes with my work. And then all the appts for dd. I am so ready for the 6 hour school day to start on 8/22.

quick meditations from dbtselfhelp,com called Be Mindful of Hands. my favorite is Be a Flower.  2minutes. check it out. music too.

www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/be_mindful_of_hands.html

Thanks for being here for me.

qcr  

[qcarolr]

DD and I talked about calendar for just her appointments. she seemed to hear the crisis T last month suggest to get up and have a plan for the day. I need to get this going with her. She asked for only one week at a time (the family calendar in the kitchen is a month at a time. She needs big boxes to fit her handwriting.

I think this is a good start. We could also include the bus route, times, etc on this calendar, and purpose of meeting if applicable. Even If I drive her the first few times, the bus schedule is valuable for the future.

DD has a couple of friends in the big city nearby. They have come and picked her up in past - only sees them a couple times a year. They each have wanted her to take the bus to them. She is terrified of getting lost, missing connections, etc. So is in panic attack mode by the time she gets there - in the past this has happened. Then she cannot enjoy being there, or work on building the r/s. Was amazed she shared all this with me today driving to jail courtroom.

We are going camping 4 days next week with gd and some other family. DD is going to 'house sit/dog sit'. She asked if one of her city friends could come to the house to hang out. I told her I am happy for her to have this company - keep out away from toxic friends. The other good thing is the crabby, dog-hating neighbor has retired and moved away just last week. So no more police calls on our dogs barking. And the next door neighbor that has also complained about dogs recently (they were barking at nesting raccoons under our shed I think) are out of town too. Will have neighbor on call for dogs if for some reason DD is gone and dogs are barking. Told DD would leave their phone #s for emergency. We will be out of range for cell most of the time camping. WOOHOO!

Work is nuts too -- need a break. The marital emotional blackmail is in full swing again. Employee wife wants to fire new front counter person, owner hubby hired her and want to keep her. Glad to get out of that rat race for a bit. As the office manager/bookkeeper I get pulled into the personnel piece of this. Dh thinks I need to find another job. Not ready to add that stress yet.

qcr  

[vivekananda]

Can anyone go on the first trip to the city to visit friends with her and point out landmarks along the way?

Can you copy a google map of the bus route and mark it out with highlighter so she can carry it with her?

Do you have bus stop numbers that you she can count off before she gets to the stop?

Can she text her friends when she expects to get to the stop so they can meet her?

The fear of getting lost is easy for me to understand. It is a fear of the unknown and is panic inducing... . but to achieve a trip on your own is a big success - a step towards independence.

Camping is such a good idea - such good fun   I hope the bears don't get you! They drop down out of the trees here, did you know? 

here's cheers big ears! happy hols here they come 

Vivek      

[Thursday]

q--

I am glad to hear you are going camping. I find that camping slows down the things that need slowing. It will be great for gd, your dh and YOU.

I have been thinking about this paragraph from a posting further up in this thread:

Feel like I let DD down this way over and over. Offer her something she wants - feel overwhelmed by one more obligation to plan - say no after I said yes. I still do this with everyone, including myself, almost daily. Even though I know this inconsistency is harmful, I still do it.

I have heard my husband tell me that his late wife had the same issue... . saying yes when she wanted to say NO, however, in her case she would say yes and follow through but would be mad at the world as she completed her promises.

The times in my life I have felt compelled to say yes (for whatever reason) when I really wanted  to say no have lead me to the conclusion that I don't want to feel like that. It feels really awful- awful to disappoint another with a yes that becomes a no and equally awful to involve myself in doing something I really don't want to do... . worse to have volunteered for my own misery.

There is also a piece of this that involves being OK with disappointing others by being honest about our own limitations. I think this has to do with self-esteem.

There is also a piece of this that involves how not OK our BPD loved one are with hearing NO, handling disappointment, getting those hopes dashed without falling apart.

How does a person learn that their world will not fall apart if their hopes are dashed? I think they learn from living this experience. They learn that they can distract themselves from the pain of their disappointment by being disappointed and living through it.

In my SD's case, her Mom would say yes... . certainly said yes to SD- my husband reports that it was consistently yes. SD learned that yes was great for her but not so great for her Mom. She never learned how to live with the no once people in her life began having to say it to her, as her requests became more impossible, more harmful to SD, more outrageous in their sense of entitlement, SD got more and more confused about how things work in the world. I think an important part of this for her, the self esteem damaging part was in feeling great about outcomes at the expense of another's happiness. That would make me feel really crappy about myself... . no doubt about it.  

SD is very perceptive. There is NO WAY she didn't see the mental process her Mom went through when doing something in a begrudging fashion. She loved her Mom but how invalidating it must have been for her to have that person she loved being grumpy about doing something for her (or with her.)

I know this is different from what you have written about (saying yes and then changing your mind) but both involve the invalidation piece... . I imagine your DD feeling confused... . "Mom said yes but disappointed me with a no after I got all excited about this or that."

I work up philosophical this morning I guess! I would love to hear thoughts about this.

Thursday (on Thursday)

[qcarolr]

Thursday -  

You have shared this in such a clear way that really resonates with my own experiences. It really damages self on all sides - the indecision to begin with; the wish that other would just stop asking so the yes with resentment or the no with sorrow is avoided.

Keeping the thinking process silent in my head -ie. asking for time to 'think about it' before giving any reply is certainly a worthy option. I think some of my problem comes from giving an impulsive, emotional mind response before my thinking mind can get engaged. Dh and I were talking about this last night (well I was talking and he mostly listened). So often the neuroscience research states that we have about 90 seconds to get our thinking involved before we act out of the emotinal inpulses. For me, I do this often. Then the thinking kicks in, and I retract that first response. It is so confusing for everyone.

And yet, I struggle to get into 'wisemind' - that is what it takes. To stop and think before I react.

Yesterday afternoon a conflict came up for our schedule this morning with unexpected reminder about DD court at 9am.  Gd's horse camp starts at 9am a half hour drive away from court. I got all the physical signs of distress - breathing faster and more constricted is first. Then reached for my phone without really thinking of all alternatives to call dh to solve this for me. He could not be late for work -his boss was gone today. My emotional level was rising - talking a little louder as I processed this outloud with DD. Then came up with another idea, called the instructor for gd's camp today for her to come early - this was OK. Then I calmed down. Whew.

Then DD said something like: Mom, you do this all the time. Get all worked up, get everyone around you stressed out, then you solved the probelm, relax and get over it. The rest of us are still revved up for awhile.

So maybe when something comes up I just have to get up and walk around - go outside and pick up dog poop, go to bathroom and throw water on my face, check the mail... . You get the idea. Remove my ability to react until I can respond.  I know this is a DBT strategy. Need to practice doing this -- practice saying 'I will think about it' every time I am making a decision. This is also a strategy in the love and logic books I have been reading. Though here I am practicing it on myself!

This will also help model this for gd who is very impulsive - some of this natural to being an 8 year old. I can help her practice this as a good skill to have in her life.

qcr  

[hoping4hope]

On a related note... . I have this rule for myself, if I can't do something for someone with "grace,"  even though it might not be my favorite thing to do, then I don't do it.  "Grace" to me means making it a happy experience for the person being done the favor.

Soon I have to go a birthday dinner for a relative that I do NOT want to spend time with, there is no graceful way out of this.  Now I'm digging deep for the Grace to get through this dinner. 

Before big tests I'd tell myself, "no matter how dreadful at least that test will be over by 1:00, it has to end."

My current dinner plan is quietly smiling and drinking (I don't drink often.) and waiting for it to end.  That's the best I got.  Any suggestions?

[vivekananda]

Thurs: wonderful explanation there! So darned sensible    of course it's an issue I have. dd says 'mum, can I ... . ?' and I want to say yes... anything, anytime, whatever you want.' I have learnt to calm down a little but I still can say yes and think afterwards. Fortunately for me, it hasn't been difficult, but I do recognise my predisposition to jump when she clicks her fingers.

qcr: One way I could look at it would be to 1) recognise when it happened 2) identify the emotional need of mine that causes me to react that way 3) find a way to soothe myself 4) then think of a solution or ask for help to arrive at a solution.

eg 1) When it happens I feel the urge to move quickly and solve the problem, I get ants in my pants. I need to breathe calmly. 2) for me my response is anxiety. I worry that if I don't do what dd wants, I will be less able to keep her close to my heart. I worry I will lose her completely. 3) So, I have to reassure myself that I am ok, I am alive, I have a good life - yes it could be better, but that is largely out of my control. 4) I can always present my problem, eg if I am required to be in two places at once and allow the other person(s) into my problem and see if they can help me find a solution - then it is a joint exercise. By this time, I should have found a way out!

I don't need to get up and move about - to do this. I am learning to meet my emotional needs in the present. I am being mindful.

h4h: There are lots of situations I have found myself in that I have had to endure. That birthday dinner you want to avoid. I would turn it into a learning opportunity, a chance to consciously work on practising my validation skills on anyone and everyone! I would look at the others and study how they are being validating or invalidating - I would recognise and identify what they were doing. It can be an eye opening experience. And I would practise keeping my opinion to myself (and you know me, that's not so easy  ). I would limit myself consciously to two glasses of alcohol... . I want total control of myself. Things like a test - well it's the preparation that counts there. I would build a ritual for the event and work on directing my focus. I do recommend the validation opportunity - it can be fun   

I like your focus on 'grace'... . nice.

cheers,

Vivek      

[hoping4hope]

Hi qcr, Vivek  and Thurs and everyone else. The birthday party for BPDss was postponed from last week... . and might happen tonight, but maybe not... . being flexible... . , I'd prefer if it was something more fun than a dinner so that we don't have to sit around making conversation when there are large elephants in the room, (like two pwBPDs, giving birth to and trying to raise a baby without sufficient educations and hard time keeping jobs.)  My thought is a baseball game so we can sit in a row... . I'm at the far end etc... I do keep my opinions to myself, but if I'm asked about this pregnancy I will not pretend it is a good thing.  I plan on smiling and nodding if the pregnancy is spoken about... . but please Lord do not let them ask me a direct question.  Can't say congratulations to this natural disaster.

Hope I'll be forgiven for a minor hijacking or detour of this thread. h4h

[vivekananda]

hiya h4h,

If you are asked directly I would avoid being judgemental. It won't help you at all. If it were me I would think to myself 'be humble Vivek , you don't know everything.' That's my own mantra to avoid being judgemental.

I am with you that the pregnancies are situations fraught with untold hurt and pain in the future, like minefields that have to be walked through.

I would work desperately on deflecting a delicate situation. eg "Everyone loves a baby, but I also remember the sleep deprivation" or "I remember how the hormones can throw a mother out of kilter, some people say it takes a village to raise a baby" or "Giving birth has to be the most amazing experience, your body is not your own". Stuff like that. And then there are questions you can ask: "I had great fun organising things for the baby, nappies, walker etc. How are you going getting everything ready?" "New mothers often need support from others but find it hard to accept or ask for, has any thought been given to how others could help?"

I would prepare a few well considered responses and have them written down and learnt off by heart so they become a natural response. I think I'm slow to think sometimes and would need to have this sort of preparation.

good luck there and let us know how it goes, ok?

Vivek      

[pessim-optimist]

qcr,

You made several interesting points. The research regarding the 90 seconds to get your thinking engaged sounds right. And the constricted breathing as the first response as well.

I think your solution is good. 

To do whatever you need to, to be able to step away mentally, take some deep breaths and think. I think that from that place, you can always integrate back into the 'wisemind'.

Another note on the saying yes, and then saying no. For me personally, that is a trigger (it undermines trust), and I speculate that for a pwBPD it is not only a trigger but probably a source of trauma - the world where 'everything goes bad eventually', world that is inconsistent (and therefore not safe), a world that does not make sense... .

It may be harder for us to say no in the first place (because of the disappointment and reaction of the pwBPD) - but in the long run, we are creating a more consistent environment for our children and we spare them the BIGGER disappointment later on.

Does that help you see 'NO' or 'I am not sure, let me think about it' in a more positive light? Do you think it will make it easier for you to avoid saying 'YES', when it may not be wise?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[hoping4hope]

Memorizing responses is good. The pregnant person is not going to be there. She has managed to alienate most members of the family by raging at them or sending vicious messages.  Only my housband's son will be there and my husband plans on not mentioning the pregnancy.  Yeah fun...   Now it is supposed to be tomorrow night... . I don't think the son will be permitted to come anyways by the pregnant person.

This girl is on the edge of cracking and a baby should be just the thing to do it.

The girl is a victim of her childhood but when she is shrieking at you just lies and unbelievable foul language that is little consolation.

[pessim-optimist]

The pregnant person is not going to be there. Only my husband's son will be there and my husband plans on not mentioning the pregnancy.

  It's always easier to deal with issues one at a time without them getting combined and too complicated.

Memorizing responses is good.

... . The girl is on the edge of cracking and a baby should be just the thing to do it.

... . The girl is a victim of her childhood but when she is shrieking at you just lies and unbelievable foul language that is little consolation

You are right, you might be in for some major issues on the horizon... .

What do you think you can do to get yourself better prepared to take care of yourself, and protect your own mental and emotional space? As much as we love our pwBPD, we are not obligated to let them abuse us by screaming and foul language... .

Do you think you have energy to work on building some meaningful boundaries? It takes a while, but in the long run, it is worthwhile... .

[hoping4hope]

Things were pretty bleak last night around the birthday party. A complicated story, but it did not go well and I was pretty despondent.  My husband and I had a long talk about the situation. BUT then this morning I realized that my husband after 3 years has finally accepted that his adult son had been trying to drive me out of the family and break us up since the beginning.

Finally.

But, I am way off topic and going to start a new thread.

Dear qcarolr  I hope things are going well with your daughter.

Your strength is amazing.  I'm a big fan.  

[qcarolr]

Hi to you all. I have been on a camping break - very nice. Cool and cloudy. Only dh, gd, my mom and sister. Dh got in lots of riding the mountain roads alone, we all went driving in our truck a couple times, good food... . I feel somewhat refreshed. DD stayed home, was allowed friends over. She was 'house-sitting, dog-sittin' even though she mostly lives with us. She did a good job, sorted some of her stuff and did the dishes. This was a first to come home to a house like I left it. Doggies seem really tired - friend had pup here too.

I have another thread about her skin infection - contagious - bonding her out of jail - court... . She has 2 harrassment charges now, violation of no-contact with ex-bf, plus the DWAI probation revokation. Her publid defender has gotten assigned them all. Should get resolved with sentencing on 9/5.

DD is doing well as she knows the rules and seems to have accepted them. She is grateful to be out of jail now, though knows she will most likely have to go back in Sep. I am staying out of her compliance with her probation and bond supervision. She has bus passes, and can get herself there. I am doing well with this letting go.

Am reading the book "boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend. It is supporting so much other that I have learned. It seems to be geting through how difficult the 'doing' part can be. I really have to have support around me to move into applying what I have learned - I cannot do this alone.  I so appreciate all your suggestions and support.

qcr  

[pessim-optimist]

  It's good to hear, qcr! Good camping trip, dd doing well at the moment, you taking care of yourself.

Wishing you a peaceful weekend.   

[vivekananda]

It may be long distance qcr, but we are all here for you. And if one of us is missing, another will step in to support you and send you best wishes,

Vivek      

[FaithfulHope]

Ditto what Vivek  said!   

[qcarolr]

You all are the best friends that I have never had before. You are always here, you understand as no one else can. There is trust and respect here for me as I can give my trust and respect to each of you.

The more I read and work in T, the greater there is deep seated shame and unworthiness that bubbles up for me. I have unreasonable expectations of myself, and this actually leads to my losing it over little things. How can I feel so peaceful driving home from work, and one thing that I asked to be done is not done and I get so angry.

Trying to shift responsibility to others. Dh says that I don't really let go of it, or I would not get so angry. Yet, I called to ask for his help today with gd's meds. and he did not follow through. She got them 4 hours late. And I was late with them yesterday. And I can see how it impacts her self-regulation and sleep patterns. So maybe I am really being hard on myself and taking it out on dh.

Gd is calling - she is unable to go to sleep yet. But if I miss her meds. entirely she goes totally bonkers before the next dose is due. Some rebound hyperactivity is the thought there. I feel like a pharmacist sometimes. Wish all the pills could just go away. I have tried that before and that makes it worse.

Such a whining vent tonight. Things are actually OK.


qcr  

[Dibdob59]

Qcr

You are not alone in how you feel and react. So many times I have meditated, worked at being mindful, tried to see things from a different perspective and managed to get myself into a calmer, clearer place in my mind - always whilst being somewhere on my own.

When I have found that space in my mind I feel lighter, clearer, more hopeful.  I convince myself it is a kind of 'enlightenment' and that things will now be different, better somehow, because I have centred myself and I will react and respond differently to situations outside of my control in future.

Then I return to the chaos of home and descend once more into the unknown. 

My BPD husband is a hoarder and our home - well I would need to take photographs to explain it as words would not do it justice.  He half cuts the lawn, half cuts a hedge, digs holes around the edge of the property to start building work then never does any more, brings home broken bikes from the local dump, buys cars and lets them rot in our driveway etc.  In truth, the external chaos he creates is a reflection of the internal chaos of his mind.

I fight inside myself to remain calm and let things wash over me.  I try to be wiser, kinder, more patient, remember that he and my BPD son are unwell. I recall the wise words that have been shared with me here by so many experienced people.

And then I fail.  Me, the supposed healthy one.  Just as you describe, I lose control over something relatively minor.  I deal with the screaming rage, the horrible comments and the erratic behaviour but then lose it over the egg shells left in the kitchen sink or the lumps of peanut butter and jelly on the kitchen counter or the piles of papers left in the middle if the living room floor.

The reality is Qcr, we are under impossible pressure and need to forgive ourselves for being human, fallible and prone to make mistakes.  I think it is because we want so much for our families to be well, healthy, happy and functioning that we have impossibly high expectations of ourselves.  We feel that, as the supposedly healthy ones, we should be able to do it all.

The fact is we cannot.  We are breaking. And we must afford the same understanding to ourselves when we slip and fall from grace as we do to our BPDs.  After all, I don't know about you, but I certainly have some fleas and am far from perfect.

So give yourself some credit for all that you do, every day, in situations that thousands of others would find impossible.

Go kiss your GD and DH and keep up the good fight.

D

[qcarolr]

My BPD husband is a hoarder and our home - well I would need to take photographs to explain it as words would not do it justice.  He half cuts the lawn, half cuts a hedge, digs holes around the edge of the property to start building work then never does any more, brings home broken bikes from the local dump, buys cars and lets them rot in our driveway etc.  In truth, the external chaos he creates is a reflection of the internal chaos of his mind.

WOW - I wonder how common this need to keep broken things is with our pwBPD? Well, also with lots of people not just BPD. DD loves to search out flea-market stuff from free places for homeless and from dumpsters near college campus. She does get lots of stuff. And it ends up in my garage and basement. She feels this is her way to help out. Her favorite obsession is clothes. Dh has all the little pieces of wood and metal and hardware that he has never used on 35 years of projects. At least most of it is on shelves in shed and garage. Then gd - she is the little hoarder for real. She cannot let go of anything - trash, trinkets, rocks, bugs, toys, clothes too small or torn... . We are working on the trash part first. I am overwhelmed by it all. There is some pshycological reason for hoarding. Maybe someday I will look for more info on this and how I may be able to support others in my family to manage this. At least in our shared space.

I have a real need for uncluttered space. This gives me so much peace. An example for me is camping - one of the best parts is our little travel trailer that I can be in total control of. There is just enough space and stuff for the short time we are gone. And it is so quick to set things right after a meal or in the morning after everyone is up and ready to go. And being away there are no demands for various details of daily life. Like appointments -for DD, for Dh, for gd, for the dogs, for the house. I can turn my cell phone off, or be out of service area if I choose.

All these demands assaulted me yesterday, the first Monday back from our trip.

Pondering this maybe some of my frustration comes from my expectations of others to take responsibility for their stuff and their appts.  And then I can't let it go. I desire for them to get their needs met - how I see that needs to be? I have such a low tolerance for messes - it hurts, actually hurts, to walk through what others are to put away or take care of. Makes me fantasize about living alone! Coming to house of others for visits only.

qcr  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[FaithfulHope]

Dib and Qcr, you have me really thinking now.   It's interesting that we all seem to have this in common... . our pwBPD can live in chaos yet we need order.  I guess this applies physically and mentally.   Hmmmmm.   My dd is the same... . she can live in utter filth.  When she has had her own place it was disgusting... . disgusting.   And when she took out the trash she would just throw it on the ground out the back door!  Who does that?   It blew my mind. She was messy in her bedroom at home but on her own it was even worse.   And her cars... .    she has had 3 so far and never took care of any of them.   Her first one she and all her friends took Sharpie marker and wrote all over the inside of it... . doors, inside roof, seats, dashboard.   Vulgar things.   And all three cars had all kinds of trash just strewn inside.   Gross.   Now for me, like with you, I need order in order to think straight.  It doesn't have to be perfect but I need things organized for me to work.   

Very interesting observation ladies.   

[vivekananda]

I was reading some wonderful wise words here... . and then you started on hoarding, mess and order ... . AAAARGGGHHHH!

How I need order. Just as you have described. And yes mess physically depresses me. Thank goodness dh has learned some habits - although he is a hoarder - not as bad as those really chronic situations (my BPD sis) because I am here, but left to his own devices, I shudder to think. And he has been cleaning up his dad's house and complaining about the hoarding there, but cannot see he has a problem too! (Well maybe I have gone on so much about it, he can see it - a bit - but he still thinks he is ok... . )

Ah winge, winge, winge. I think my need for order and cleanliness and tidiness is my emotional need to have control in my life, hence my anxiety when my world is not clean, tidy and ordered. Mind you my standards have dropped immensely over the years 

ah the joys of living with others. I am rereading what Dibdob said and refocussing on keeping up the   fight. Letting go of my hangups and accepting what I can't change - with grace    (well I'm trying, very trying  )

Vivek  

[qcarolr]

This conversation on physical space chaos vs. order has stimulated me. It has brought me back to pondering how much I carry judgements inside my self. Brought the impact of this to the surface and is shining a light there in all my relationships. It is also about personal boundaries - asking others to respect those physical locations that I need to maintian order ie. keep your stuff off my desk, out of my bedroom, etc. This also applies at work, though I get much more open respect there than at home. And I can so easily misuse the respect at work - turn it into being bossy and judgemental quickly. I sensed this happening yesterday at work.

So this is a good thing - an awareness that my thoughts and actions are carrying judgements even as my words are saying otherwise. My internal words as well as my spoken words. So again and again I ask of myself to take the next step beyond awareness toward acceptance and questioning how to change what goes on quietly inside. Only then can this show up in my actions on the outside.

Does this make any sense?

Examples that have popped up:

DD telling me that I hold her to a higher standard than her friends. She is right, as my daughter I expect more from her. And this turns into meanness at times. This has been an issue between us for many years - since she was 15 and pushing LOUDLY for her seperateness from me and I would not let go. Actually she asked about this in more subtle ways even at age 11 as dh and I began to substitute a friend staying in our home to buffer us from her aggressive neediness. I am getting awareness - again. How to replace the judgements with... .

The couple that I do work for: I first worked at wife's business, then she wanted me to work at her husband's business and assist them with some of their personal finances. Then she sold her business with the economic downturn in 2011 and stepped into working with her H in his business. She pushed a lot of people out of his business with her way of communicating and micro-managing. See, here are my judgements. She has 'gone on strike' several times since then to try and get her way in decisions, and wanting to be given full authority over all decisions by her H. He has gradually been standing his ground with her - I have been a supporter of this. Like suggesting hiring a temp. to cover while she is taking her 'break'. That person is now a full-time employee for us since last Oct. It has finally resolved that she will no longer be working in H's business. I have been working hard to set boundaries with each of them as they come to me seperately with their complaints and requests for the other. Esp. the wife asking me to 'talk to H as he won't listen to me' with her desires. Even as I set these boudnaries it is hard to keep my judgements out of my thinking and actions with each of them. This is a real test of my desire to be more humble and to step out of the way beyond my role as the bookkeeper and office manager - the data provider only. Not a decision maker.

I practice many of my learnings at work - less emotional baggae there.

That is my story for today. What are your stories about moving away from judgement? What do you replace judgements with - that is the only way to change - to push old behaviors out with new ones - old thinking out with new patterns - then the underlying feelings and emotions can begin to change. It is emotions that trigger the thinking that creates the actions. They are all interelated - change any of these three and the other two can only change too.  Isn't this the base of so much of what we learn here? Feeling, thinking, doing. Body, mind, emotion -- spirit.

qcr  

[Dibdob59]

Qcr

I love your last post, particularly the following.

It is emotions that trigger the thinking that creates the actions. They are all interelated - change any of these three and the other two can only change .

You final paragraph above clarifies to me so succinctly what happens when our BPDs dysregulate. 

You describe our behavioural process as "emotions that trigger the thinking that trigger the actions."

However I believe that our BPDs miss one vital part of that process, namely they simply have "emotions that trigger the actions" and by-pass the "thinking" stage.  This lack of cognition or thinking then leads to the chaos that rules their daily lives.

This lack of pause (thinking) could be why they find it so hard to accept their actions and fail to see any need for change.  By not having thought about what they have said or done, in their eyes they have not said or done it.

My BPDh is always denying that he has said or done things, even immediately after he has said or done them in front of other people.  My non BPDD has always said he seems to function in detachment from himself. 

I think she has something here.

D

[vivekananda]

hey dibdob have you seen this?

Wise mind: How to Stay Centered]https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=180322.0]Wise mind: How to Stay Centered

you have it in a nutshell and the link above explains a little more, in a different way.

Qcr you have it in a nutshell too!

You know being judgemental has bothered me in the past. I have found that if I practice a mindfulness exercise - just breathing and calming and focus on being present combined with a mantra for myself 'be humble' works rather well. Afterwards when I critically reflect, I try to look for my unmet emotional need and identify it (unless I can do that on the spot that is). If I understand what my unmet emotional need is, then I can figure out how to meet it for myself.

I think that reminding myself of my values (respect, acceptance and co-operation) is helpful. These are how I want to live my life. If I am being judgemental, I am being hypocritical and contravening my values. And yes, using boundaries for myself to help me maintain my values and prevent me from getting sucked into the vortex of chaos of others, is helpful.

A person of integrity isn't judgemental, I want to be a person of integrity - I won't therefore be judgemental.

So, I am able to change my thinking (I hope) and my actions (I hope) through self talk and reflection and then practising. The easiest way for me to practise is to travel on public transport and look at everyone around me and practise a silent loving kindness towards all the people in my world. There is a nasty homeless man who frequents our streets. He is obviously someone with a PD, extreme alcoholism, a woman hater, and abusive. He is in the streets I walk, begging on the pavement. This is my exemplar for assessing my judgementalism, acceptance and humility and boundaries. I have quite a way to go   

One thing I have found helpful - we are in election mode here in Aust and it is a distasteful experience for me - I have learnt to avoid that which will rile me. I am aware of what is going on, but I am avoiding that which will stir me up so that I can remain calm. That also helps avoid depression!

I'd be interested in what others have to say,

Vivek    

[qcarolr]

Rapt Reader's post today about the progress with her DS really has encouraged me. And I was putting too much of my story on her thread, so moved most of it over here. DD's openness with me the past couple days has be off guard a bit - hopeful yet cautious. If things are going too well, and I push too much of the things she is expected to be doing by others in her life, she has relapsed in the past. So need to quiet my mind, and let go let go. Even told her tonight of this need for me. She is bored, yet anxious about her court hearing on 9/5. Facing almost certain sanctions with jail time. Dh and I are pondering supporting home detention, if offered. Have to balance cost of that with cost of support we promised her while in jail. Another post for this.

She was asking me what she should be doing next today. I suggested she contact her RCC (recovery case coordinator she has done intake with - linked with mental health center but in a house not an office bldg) first. For job skills support and to connect with life skills class. Asked if she was doing her UA's and her PO meetings. She said "some of them", and she did see him while we were gone last week. She gave me the appt. card, and she actually bought a big calendar for her appoinments today. Dh hung it in the kitchen tonight, next to Gd's chore calendar and across the wall from my family appt. calendar. What a lot to take in

SHe went and did her UA today, and asked me to drive her to her PO meeting tomorrow morning and to her alcohol class tomorrow night. I asked if she could get the bus there. She said she needed me to help her be sure she gets there. She is not sure she would cross the street from the bus stop into the center for probation support. I asked if this is why she asks me to drive her to appointments when she can get the bus there. Yes was her reply.

I have seen this panic set in whenever we approach the mental health center. I am hopeful that once she can get connected at the mental health recovery center (not a rehab but part of her probation requirements) she can get there on her own.

The other thing is her exbf'M' that pressed the harrassment charges is in jail on for assaulting his new gf. A sense of redemtion for DD, though she wanted to write him a letter today. Reminded her of no contact order against her already, and that he is not good for her in general. Must be so hard to feel abandoned by him.

Then we talked a bit about the other exbf"G" that ended up in jail last year for assaulting DD. She believes the harrassment charges are punishment for her calling police to get help during that attack. Involving the police is a big taboo in the homeless clan. "G" has failed his probation and may be on his way to prison for 2 years. Much more harsh than the county jail. We have not been able to find out his sentence yet from last week's hearing. DD can call victim assistance and find out - maybe suggest this tomorrow if she can take on one more thing.

DD still loves all the guys that have been in her life - all of them toxic in some way for her. Well 4 of the 7 in past 10 years. All ended in some kind of domestic violence, often fueled by substance use. We talked a little about this today too. So tonight she is a little overwhelmed. She was able to say this to me when I was suggesting a dr. visit soon for her face infection that has not completely healed. Just too many appointments.

Life is just so full for all of us. How can I teach mindfulness to DD, and practice it consistently for myself. Just have to stop and do it everyday. Have to take DD with me to start doing yoga -- she has asked me to do this and I have resisted. don't know why.

Well need to go back and read Vivek 's post above, then off to bed. Thanks for listening to my story.

qcr  

[vivekananda]

I have heard that it takes 21 days for a habit to be created. So, on this basis I am trying to set aside 3 - 10 mins at the same time everyday, to do a 'mindfulness' practice, such as I have learnt to do it the course on Realistic Hope. I need to find a place where I can be uninterrupted, a seat or chair is good, to be able to claim the same place for myself is ideal. Set my phone to time myself for the amount of minutes I am allowing myself.

There are 3 things to do:

1) sit and adjust body so posture is 'correct'. Leave eyes open a little so I don't sleep.

2) focus on my breathing slowly in and out.

3) allow the thoughts to drift in an out of my mind. Acknowledge them and let them go.

So, if I can do this daily for 21 days, I have begun a habit that becomes easier and easier. The rewards have been obvious since I have started the course ... . and I haven't yet become consistent with my practice. The objective of this mindfulness practice is to become totally in the present and allow myself the possibility to practice this anywhere, anytime I want.

Perhaps you could try this with your dd? Start with just 3 mins for 1st week, 5 for 2nd week, more for 3rd week ... . if she can do it with you, maybe she can then move onto yoga as a reward?

Vivek    

[qcarolr]

Vivek  - great idea. yet, not today. DD met with her PO this morning. She has missed 4 UA's so he is submitting violation of her bond. Even as she says to me 'i have been calling except maybe a couple of hard days'. So she is trying to keep my 'on her side' - ie. not angry with her or too disappointed - and she knows she has not called.

So letting go of my fantasy today about how good she is doing. And holding onto the facts of the things she has been successful with. Just need to keep my thoughts to myself today. Can talk about it all when she meets with her lawyer on Monday.

I can do this medition practice. I have done in the past - the eyes open a little is may help and sitting up. I do tend to go to sleep. Setting a timer too. Now to find that alone time. Next Thursday gd is gone to school seven hours a day. So get that half hour before I have to get on with my day. I will let you know how it goes.

qcr  

[Rapt Reader]

DD met with her PO this morning. She has missed 4 UA's so he is submitting violation of her bond. Even as she says to me 'i have been calling except maybe a couple of hard days'. So she is trying to keep my 'on her side' - ie. not angry with her or too disappointed - and she knows she has not called.

So letting go of my fantasy today about how good she is doing. And holding onto the facts of the things she has been successful with. Just need to keep my thoughts to myself today.

qcarolr... . I'm really sorry that things are just so complicated right now with your daughter; it sounds like she (like my son) doesn't want to disappoint you, so she tells you mostly what you want to hear when you ask her questions (he did that all the time prior to getting his Dx and treatment). And yeah, letting go of the fantasy of our child accomplishing what we dream they will is, I think, the hardest thing to do with our pwBPD; holding onto the "TLCs"--Tiny Little Changes--for the good in our child's progress is the life saver. Our own mental health and well-being depends on our doing this. I think of it as a form of Radical Acceptance, and make myself do it every minute of every day. You're getting there... . as is your daughter