BPDFamily.com

I haven't been on in a bit.  Was impacted by some flooding, some issues at work, trying to sell my house, packing, and trying not to go crazy with the insanity of it all.

My previous threads:

Intro:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=208771.0

Legal fight

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=209298.0

I am stuck in BPD/NPD limbo, as my therapist puts it.  She is exemplifying two interesting traits:

On the BPD side, she keeps telling me she loves me, can't imagine her life without me, thought we would grow old together, but that she just can't be with me (due to my choices).  She has invited me over to "plead her case" as it relates to the ongoing custody battle.  It always ends with me apologizing, her telling me there is nothing else to talk about, and me going home in tears.  She wants me to have no overnights, and wants complete control over the children.  I have accepted that a judge is likely going to give me more than she is offering, which I believe is why she has been nicer to me in recent days... .

On the NPD side, she truly believes my infidelity is unforgivable.  Maybe it is.  Maybe it just is for her.  I do know from my own reading and from my T that NPD (and many Cluster B) individuals have a hard time forgiving, and that even if she took me back this would like be thrown in my face regularly for life.

My apologizing only bolsters her ego, her sense of entitlement, adds to her "story" that she is telling the world.  I firmly believe if she had a secured a firm backup plan (e.g. father figure) for the children, she would have discarded me altogether, letting the courts do their thing.

Some of the yo-yo stuff hasn't been to recycle me back in by way of salvaging the marriage, but it has been to keep me close (I believe to get me to acquiesce to her legal demands after the law clerk essentially gave her the stink eye for telling her no overnights for my ~s2.5).

I move this week.  I keep saying I would do anything to keep my family together.  I am NOT posting in the undecided section though for two reasons:  1)  She has made it pretty clear that there will never be an "us" (that remains to be seen, but is the status quo).  2)  We are in the midst of it from a legal perspective.

Status hearing is on the 4th.  I met with a new law firm that wasn't sure they wanted to try and get up to speed that quickly.  I don't think my L is doing a bad job (based on what I saw in the status conference), I just don't think she gets (or even wants to get) personality disorders and how they contribute to high conflict divorces.

I am torn (staying vs. going), but the snowball is rolling downhill towards the D route so I am going to stay here for a bit.

Not much else has changed.  My son is acting out a bit, but stbxW has invited me over for dinner to substitute for activities he isn't going to due to his behavior.  Ulterior motives to my going over there?  I don't know.

I DID ask her to reconsider her response to my petition for legal separation (she responded asking the courts to make it a divorce).  She hasn't given me an answer on that yet.

I am probably just setting myself up for more hurt anyway.

I think that pwBPD do have trouble in truly forgiving.  I do believe that she invites you over under false pretexts so that she can berate you some more.  Please keep records of these visits and her invitations (if something you can print out--email or text).  Always be recording when you are with her. 


Couldn't they ask for a continuance to get up to speed if not ready by the 4th?

"She believes it is unforgivable."  That's typical BPD, NPD, etc thinking.  Even if she did forgive you now, she would likely put it away in the background and throw it at you every time she was ranting and raging.  They can't seem to let go of perceived injustices, party too because they can't or won't see their own part in it so of course none of it can even slightly be their fault.  Like a record with a damaged groove, she would keep going back to it over and over and over.

Frankly, though, it is her choice whether to forgive you or not.  If she chooses not to, that is her right.  Even reasonably normal spouses might refuse to forgive.  However, it is not right for her to block your parenting because of an adult relationship action.  That's what she says and feels, but it's more about her inability to forgive and move on, inability to see that there is always some gray in between the black and white of life.  So hopefully court will separate her adult relationship rejection from her choosing to punish you by ending your parenting as well.  You likely won't be married to her when the court case is over, but you will ALWAYS be your child's father.  Court knows that.  Court may move slow, it may move in tiny baby steps, but generally it does get around to issuing reasonable orders.  But you need to stand up for yourself and convince the court you aren't going to be the typical stereotyped absentee dad.  Please be assertive of your parental rights and your proper parenting so that the court sees you really do care.  (Your spouse will surely claim you don't care about your child, don't want your child, don't love your child, etc, etc.  Be prepared for false allegations, nasty ones.   They are often made when the spouse realizes the mild entitled blocking isn't working.)

Well, I've already sounded off on the practicality long term of Legal Separation vs Divorce, so I'll say no more about that.  If you think it would work to live your life On Hold simmering on the back burner (stove analogy) then you can try it.  If she's not getting therapy, applying it and making real progress it will be a long lonely wait for you.

Catnap, I am not sure about the continuance.  I think my stbx sort of short them in the foot.  Her attorney was trying to push it out as far as possible when my stbx (who wants it DONE) said "I will take this day off, let's do it then".

I didn't carry a recording device last night.  I am an idiot, as I should have.  It was an amazing evening until my oldest went to bed wherein it went to hell.  I was berated, all the dirt dug up, and eventually told if I didn't leave she was calling the police (I was out of there in 5 seconds flat).  I already sent my synopsis to my attorney, but I am torn as I got a good quality 3-4 hours with my boys before 30 minutes of hell.

I believe SHE truly believes that overnights are the worst thing for the kids, and that she is doing me some kind of favor by keeping me in their lives (such as the invite to dinner last night - - there was no agenda that I saw).  She fllipped mostly because I brought up not wanting to lose the family (yes, i am still stuck there mentally while reality is divorce).  I had asked her to change her petition response to legal separation to give us time.

She doesn't think it is forgivable.  To me, forgiveness comes from the heart.  You never forget, you may even be more wary and lest trusting in the future, but forgiveness truly comes from the heart... .

This rings ESPECIALLY true.  We went to marriage counseling several times with different counselors about my emotional needs being unmet.  She now says had she known I needed more on that front, she would have done "everything in her power" to meet my needs.  In the next sentence, she went on about how my emotional needs are excessive and no one should get praise for wiping their own ***.  I didn't want praise for everything, but by gosh, she had EVERYTHING she could have wanted, and I was working my tail off to get us there.  The reason I strayed was complex, but the other woman was constantly validating my efforts, my contributions, and me as a person.  My T says I may have a higher need for that than most, and BPD/NPD are likely going to struggle to meet that need.

I mention before, but she doesn't talk to her own mother, one of her brothers, and barely the rest of her immediate family.  She has now cut my family out because their support of me is a slight against her.

She refused to acknowledge fault, even for her EXTREMELY inappropriate comments to/around the kids afterwards.  I reference many in previous threads, but the things she said are reprehensible (wishing I would shoot myself, find the kids another daddy, come her s2.5, let's tell daddy what a piece of S*** he is).  She sees NO fault in these things (her words last night) as she was reacting, and therefore she has no responsibility for her actions... .

I think you are right, even if I "got my family back", this would be used as a club to whack me with at her every whim.

Hopefully nothing coming out of last night's dialogue comes back to bite me... .

Sorry for the additional post... .

Maybe someone can point me in the right direction for trying to figure out my own irrational thinking, whether codependency, low self-esteem, etc.

I can't figure out why this marriage failing is absolutely devastating me.  I feel like I need to salvage it at all costs (and trust me, I am considering taking much less than I should to try and salvage it).

My close friends are pointing out the issues and how unhappy I was before I stepped out (leading to my stepping out).  I am struggling because I can't figure out how much of that was there beforehand vs. me trying to rationalize/compartmentalize the affair.

I have essentially been begging her back, constantly (which is only empowering her)... .

And you also risk her claiming you're stalking or harassing her.

Have you ready about the 5 stages of grieving a relationship loss (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=138154.0)?  One stage is Bargaining, maybe you're stuck there?  You so much want to have something that you're even willing to go back into the cooking pot and simmer some more.

Fortunately the last stage is Acceptance.  You'll get there, just focus your eyes ahead, not behind.

(In my case I 'accepted' it was over after she had already driven away all our friends and all my relatives, suspecting virtually anyone and everyone as "probably" abusers, it was when she started looking at me suspiciously when I was around our preschooler, that was my Wake Up Call.  Scared me to my core, I had no desire to risk wearing orange jumpsuits for a decade or two.)

www.psychcentral.com/lib/the-5-stages-of-loss-and-grief/000617

www.hubpages.com/hub/Relationships-Ending-The-Five-Stages-of-Grief

Well put.  She has already made claims that my trying to get her back is "playing mind games".  I am struggling in getting out of this phase, and will spend some time reading what you posted... .

I guess I need to re-read the grieving steps, however this statement (while true) is really tugging at my heart strings .  I will be a statistic, my marriage will be a statistic, and my boys will be a statistic.  I have tried, and continue to try, to somehow salvage something.  She continues to tell me there is a .0001 % chance that she will ever forgive me, and it has to be on her terms.  Her terms would mean a) not going to court, b) reducing my parenting to match her schedule, c) pretty much acquiescing to her demands.  I want to keep the marriage, and she knows (and is using it against me).

Hmmmm... .you want to keep the marriage. But... .do you want to keep HER? You need to listen to what she is telling you, and believe her. She is telling you what life will be like with her.  Is that the marriage you want to keep, or are you trying to hold onto an idealized version of "marriage"?

Gagrl, good question.  I think it is more of a combination of things --

a) not wanting to be away from my boys

b) what is/was comfortable

c) not wanting to lose the IDEA of what I thought I had (or could have had).

d)  I am also pretty stubborn in that I don't give up... .

Regarding listening to her and believing her, that is hard for me, as I continue to hope and pray that it will change, but you are bringing up a valid point.  I think it is the idealized version.

You sound so much like my DH who spent 33 years married to his UBPD/NPD ex. They actually lived together for 19 or so years of that time, and most of his reasoning for staying was to protect his children. He will admit however that he also hung onto a dream that the ex would "mature" and that there was a strong element of not admitting to what he perceived as "failure."

Will write more when I have more time, but I wanted to say that I am in a similar position.  I would do anything to keep my family together and STBX husband wants me back.  But his nice behavior often morphs into scary behavior and I realize I have to get away.  It is a really sad situation.  Most people would have run long ago, but I guess I am just too romantic.  (Or codependent, or have too low self esteem.)

Someone who wants you to have no overnights with the kids isn't thinking of the kids or you, just herself (unless you are a danger somehow... .)  So it tells you how sick she is.  If she was willing to get help it might be one thing.

I hear you. I've been married twice, so was doubly committed to staying in my marriage. If you asked me 3-4 years ago what my best quality was, I would've said loyalty. Which turns out to be a classic codependent trait    N/BPDx is also high-functioning and people were shocked when the marriage ended. The pain of exposing the lie alone was shattering. Literally. I feel like a rebuilt model.

And there are other statistics we don't hear so much about. Like the probability that kids with BPD parents are more at-risk for substance abuse, and other kinds of delinquent behavior as they get older. Your kids are young, so it's hard to see what's developing right now. The research about kids with BPD mothers (it's not as easy to find research about BPD fathers) is not heartening. By the time they are 6, a lot of the attachment issues are in place. By the time kids are 7, 8, behavioral issues start to manifest. There is no question in my mind that if I stayed, my son would take his own life or develop devastating substance issues when he got older. I paid $1500 to have a psychological assessment done, and he was referred to as "at risk" at age 8. He wanted to kill himself and he hadn't even hit puberty yet.

Sometimes I wonder if it's easier for nons to get through the leaving process when kids are involved because it allows this justifiable or acceptable transference of codependence to the kids. We aren't ready to really heal the codependence and take care of ourselves, but we are ok choosing to protect our kids. It makes it easier to take that first psychological step, that giant leap of faith to choose a healthy life for them, because we often don't value ourselves enough to make that choice for us. Asking myself, What does it mean to raise a healthy child? is the most important question I ever asked. Because to answer it, I had to look at myself, my FOO. I had to understand my own role, my own decisions, my own blind spots, and my own script. You start asking that question, and learn some wise things, and begin to realize your own FOO was missing this and that. Maybe you even realize you had BPD parents.

Either that, or we leave the r/s when we find ourselves put in dangerous situations by raging BPD spouses. That's the brick-hitting-the-head version. Appears to be a fairly effective wake up call with potentially devastating consequences. 

Not saying that leaving is a cakewalk, or that you make the decision to leave and the FOG lifts and all is clear and wonderful. I keep thinking about the hero's journey -- it's like that. You're going to figure out the truth about all this, but you have to leave the ordinary world and enter the special world first. And there will be dark nights of the soul there! That seems to go with the territory. But the hero makes it back home, transformed and rebuilt.

There are no statistics about that, unfortunately. Too bad! How many heroes take the journey, and what percentage of them are better off when they return home?

Today was fun... .

I have a prospective new job that would take me away from "her", combined with stbX UBPD/NPD STILL wanting to negotiate outside of court (and by negotiate, I mean give in to exactly what she wants).

--------------

Two phone calls... .first one, she was nasty, belittling, and condescending, she hit the roof (and hung up) when I made an inference that she had any impact on the choices SHE HAS MADE since this all started.

STBX wanted to talk about the prospective job that would get me away from "her".  She started off pleasant, but then stated that I have her offer (I have no such offer, and she refuses to have her L draft one due to the "cost".  I tried to explain the upside and the reasons why getting out of my company (who just laid off 7% of the organization and lost a huge revenue stream) would be good for everyone.  She had an argument for everything, that it would impact her ability to work, etc.

I was continually berated because she had to make choices based on my actions (stating that she had no choice, in her behavior, in the legal battle, etc.). 

She then went on to make some very hurtful comments.  "You put us in this situation, Every choice that I have made is because of something you have done.  One day maybe you will see that.  Maybe with a lot of therapy, someone can help you be the man you should be, maybe.  I don't hold my breath for that though." 

Me: "I Have shared with you what is important to me with respect to the boys.  Do you want me to go over that again or do you feel like you have an understanding of my perspective."

STBX: "Tell me what you want, let's not play mind games, this is very simple"

Me: "I am not playing mind games.  All I want is reasonable overnights with s2.5 and reasonable visitation with s9mo."

STBX: "I am not going to agree to overnights"

Me: "Ok, then I guess we have to let a judge decide.  Do you really want to go to court and spend all the extra money to realize that (me) is entitled to overnights with s2.5

She then goes off about my use of the word entitlement, I simply respond with, I am not a deadbeat dad you are dragging to court to get to pay child support.  I am involved, and I want to be involved.

STBX:  "Entitled, that is the word you are going to use?"

Me: "As their father, I have rights to be active in my kids lives.  I am here, I am trying, I am acting".

Me: "no response"

STBX:  "You know my position on that"

Me: "This is how a negotiation works.  It isn't picking a position and not being willing to budge.  If we both do that, then we will never find middle ground"

Me: "I don't want to spend $20-$30k more in legal fees either."

STBX:  "That Job, if you choose it, will strongly impact what little ability I have to provide income for these children (yeah, right, we had four swing shifts working just fine with me putting them to bed before she reduced her hours to 16/wk)."

Me: "Help me understand"

STBX:  "No, I am probably being recorded right now because you have ulterior motives with everything that you do"

Me: "What happens if I lose my job at XYZ tomorrow?  We just laid of 7% of our workforce and have lost 50% of our main revenue stream"

STBX:  "Are you trying to guilt me?"

Me: "No, I am trying to give you detail, I am trying to help you have the information so you can make an informed decision.  I want you to be involved in the decisions that impact both of our abilities to parent these children"

STBX:  "You know my offer"

Me: "I don't know your offer, you said yourself that you hadn't even shared the whole thing with me."

STBX:  "We will go before a judge, if you get overnights then we will escalate it at that point"

Me: "What do you mean you will escalate it at that point"

STBX:  "I am not going to share any of my lawyers advice with you, that isn't wise"

Me: "Hrmm... .  You can appeal it and drag it out all you want but at the end of the day the boys are the ones suffering"

STBX: "Why are they suffering?  What started this?  Why have we sold our house, lost $10ks"

Me: "Why are we not sitting down as reasonable adults and trying to come to agreements?"

STBX:  "I offered you more than what that mediation paper suggests"

Me: "You picked the lowest common denominator and made an offer"

STBX:  "I am done, contact my attorney unless unless you are going to agree to my offer"

Me: "so you are not willing to negotiate in good faith as you have asked me to do a dozen times?

STBX goes on about what she has put together by way of offers, I respond that I haven't seen any of them.  She says she is not going to pay her attorney to draft anything.

Me: "Actually, my attorney has provided offers"  <click>

She then emails me:

"Please keep all communications not directly related to the boy through attorneys."

She did bring up at one point that my attorney has been forwarding MY LOG ENTRIES to her L.  She quoted some verbatim... .

in the 5/6 stages of grief, I am definitely in ANGER right now... .(at least I recognize it :)  ).

You should have an expectation that your communications with your lawyer are privileged and confidential.  Some information does need to be shared between lawyers but from here in remote peer support it's hard to say whether your lawyer was too informative.  If the lawyer is new to high conflict cases then maybe L was caught off guard with how much stbEx would overreact.  If that trust is broken then you should (1) review the proposed communication beforehand and approve or (2) ponder again whether you need a more experienced lawyer.


(1)  Don't you want to see your youngest child for extended periods?  What about when you go on vacation, take a long weekend to see the grandparents, etc?

Do you really accept that you'd have to leave your children behind for VACATIONS?  Typical orders allow up to TWO WEEKS for vacations, however a court may limit vacations to one week until the youngest is a little older, not sure.  If you cave on expecting at least  some overnights with all the children, then how will your ex handle a one or two week vacation notice?  That's right, it is not a "request", it's a "notice", as long as a vacation notice fits within the rules and limits of the parenting order, then she can't object to it.  Yes, she can obstruct it but then you can file a motion for Contempt of Court.

(Note to all parents seeking temp orders in high conflict cases:  A temp order generally mentions holidays but may not specifically mention vacations since they're just temporary.  Mine didn't, though it did reference the county guidelines for holidays.  So be sure to get vacation wording in the order or specific on-the-record statement by the judge that you can have standard vacations with the children.  Why?  Our high conflict temp orders typically last a year or two and you don't want the stbEx claiming you can't take vacations with the children as mine did.)

NO judge will deny you at least SOME overnights with your children.  Not unless you are considered substantively neglectful, abusive or dangerous.  (Please don't tell her that, don't give her any ideas to make false allegations!)

So... .STOP defaulting to appeasing her regarding significant parenting time and overnights for the baby.  You are an adult.  Though a man cannot breastfeed a baby, you can hold a bottle whether milk, formula or mother's milk, prepare baby food, change diapers, etc.  Don't let her eviscerate your parenting.

You know what she demands, you know it's not reasonable, you know she won't change her tune.  Go to court, seek at least a standard schedule.  Really though, you ought to ask for at least a little more, knowing the judge may want a way to not grant either of you everything asked for.  (If you ask for standard and ex demands next to nothing, I worry that the judge might wimp out and decide to split the difference.)  Let the judge make a standard, reasonable order.

(2) Why are you still trying to reason with her when you haven't been able to reason with her for months (if not longer) and she has effectively declared you to be nonessential, barely tolerated, worthy of nothing but crumbs, etc?

Sometimes here you'll see us writing about the Three Sentence Rule.  In most cases we can express our needed communication in 3 sentences.  Yes, you have to strip out the pleas, begging, reasoning, etc.  What's left are the basics:  statement of the facts, statement of your boundary or expectation.  Anything more just eggs on the conflict.


That is excellent advice considering the current level of conflict and disagreement.  Frankly, that's the only reasonable thing she has said in all you've written, possibly it came from her lawyer?  In any case, you now know that reasoning with her doesn't work.  Some might even say that continuing conversations such as the above are contributing to the high level of tension, not letting it be or reducing it.

She sounds very intelligent and high-functioning, which can completely and totally mess with your head.

But all the signs are there. You aren't going to get anything from this person except a knife in the back.

jmrslc,

The clarity with which your wife describes the role she offers you in any future relationship is kind of unusual for these forums.  Seeing it through a lens like that offered by Joseph Campbell's "hero's journey" myth (as proposed by livednlearned) sure seems fruitful to me.

She's definitely not proposing that Mary Oliver scenario:

"You do not have to walk on your knees

for a hundred miles through the desert, repenting."

(And, anyway, you've already been there and already done that, right?)

But more like a twisted, forced version of the Proclaimers':

"But I would walk 500 miles

And I would walk 500 more

Just to be the man who walked 1000 miles

To fall down at your door"

I hope you can develop your own clarity to match hers. What a tough, unyielding situation. 

She is extremely high functioning, and it is resulting in some brutal treatment from her.  Her latest are two parallel "tactics";  1) inviting me to things and then uninviting me  2) threats of exposing my poor choices and the affair in highly public forums (one example is our company facebook page, 2400+ person company, in the fastest growing top 50 in our industry, and I am an executive there... .

She told me yesterday (repeated many times) "I am going to tell the whole world once the ink is dry".  She always says it at a whisper and makes grand gestures with her arms when she does it.  My voice recorder doesn't pick it up (I checked). 

I am considering asking for a non-disparaging order (even at temp orders) for the good of the children and to ensure that I can continue to viably provide financially for the family.

She also knows how I react to "public shame".  I don't do well with it, which has been a career driver for me (I have to be the best).  This has been my third greatest source of anxiety aside from the kids & the codependency issues.


A ton of good information here.  I am going to tell my L today (meeting in 45 minutes) that I would like to ask for two overnights for each since I was caring for them four nights a week previously.

I will be printing this for my discussion with my L.

My T told me that my STBx is going to spend the rest of her life TRYING to make me miserable.  She firmly believes based on the way STBx approaches everything else that she will make it her life's mission to hurt me, ruin me, damage me, discourage me.  It has been quite depressing, to be honest.

Kate,

What do you mean that the clarity she offers is unusual for these forums?

-J

I mean that most of the women described here seem to be more passive-aggressive and subtly manipulating than your wife. Her threats are pretty scary, but they are out in the open.

Added: I see that your therapist has noted something like this. Is your T making any suggestions as to how to handle this? Call her bluff? Limit contact? Any other strategies?

I was in a family court hearing once where I heard the commissioner order each party (and the parties' families) not to disparage the other parent or the other parent's families. I don't know how that works out in practice . . . 

Re:  Therapist, she says it is the price I have to pay for marrying her (with her disorders), and then wronging her.  He** hath no fury squared... .

She hasn't given me much except to stop reacting, focus on myself and my boys, and get my legal stuff in shape.

My attorney has asked me to put together an arsenal.  I am working on it tonight and tomorrow.  four full page color photos of each of damaged property, the rooms for the boys as I have them setup in my new home, etc.  Consolidated log entries of the last three months, which means I am going to have to re-read (re-live) all of it in the next 18 hours.  Dread... .

Quite honestly, if a woman publicly exposed her stbx or ex husband for having an affair on his company's FB page, I would find her batsh!t crazy. That is what crazy people do.

If I were in your shoes, I would talk to HR. Tell them your wife suffers from a personality disorder, that you are going through a high-conflict divorce, and that she is threatening to publicly humiliate you in your workplace. You won't be the first person to deal with this and they may have some good ideas about how to protect you AND their company. No PR or HR person wants batsh!t crazy and dirty laundry on their public FB page, so telling them in advance is in their interests too.

Ask if you can talk to the person who manages your social media. Ask what the policy is if someone were to do what your ex is threatening to do. I manage social media where I work and if someone put that kind of post up, I would take a screenshot of it and then delete that sucker within 10 seconds of seeing it. Then there would be a conversation with people about whether or not to block that person, or email her directly, etc. If you think this is something your ex is genuinely going to do, get ahead of it first and get leadership on your team.

Also? You don't owe anyone an explanation of whether the affair is true or not. It's not their business. Their business to make sure a crazy person doesn't release the flying monkeys on their company PR sites.

Not sure if this is true for others, but for me, the dread was so much worse at the beginning of my divorce. The anxiety and stress of that first year literally made me vomit. I'm 3 years out and I still feel extremely vigilant, but the dread is barely there. It's like the dread was proportionate to my denial about his illness, if that makes sense. The more I saw how sick and ill he was, the less dread I felt. Now he's just one other problem in my life I need to manage.

A year ago, he had a psychotic episode and came to the (false) conclusion that I had an affair during our marriage. His behavior and thinking was so disordered that his lawyer ending up withdrawing. So even though I didn't have an affair, I might as well have. I still get the same crazy -- he keeps threatening to write a book, tell my son everything blah blah blah. Whatever.

If your wife can't let go of the rage against you, it's going to hurt her in court. That's the weird thing about all this. When they act badly, it works in your favor.

She revoked her last settlement offer... .So much for stipulating to the $$ amounts.  Now she wants more money and still no overnights.  Apparently my L has negotiated M/W/F evenings plus Saturday -- no overnights, and a fixed $$ amount (which is more than half of my take home).  My L doesn't think we have enough time to go through the issues in the 1 hour hearing, and that the judge is just going to follow basic guidelines (thinks overnights are up in the air, but that $ will be high).

If I roll the dice, the statutory $$s are almost 25% more money, and potentially no overnights (and less days per week).  I feel like I have to take this.  Court is tomorrow at 9am... .

Rock | Me | Hard Place

It gets better.  She signed it, but removed all of the provisions around non-disparagement, etc.  What the temp stipulation speaks to is parenting time (three evenings, 4 hours) and one weekend day.  What worries me is that it says that we agree to vacate the temp orders hearing, and does NOT speak to joint decision making, participating in school or other activities, etc.  I am scared to sign it... .

My L thinks we have enough information and evidence to get a restraining order, and that the restraining order essentially allows us to get EVERYTHING into evidence (which the 1 hour temp orders hearing wouldn't have done).  It also provides the protections against harassment, contacting my employer, manipulation, coercion (all of the domestic violence elements -- essentially). 

We are going to accept the settlement offer without the protection elements that are important to me, and then go get a RO immediately after the judge enters orders.

Here's hoping I am not kicking a hornet's nest.

Risky strategy?

That is how I am feeling .  Time is running out, I am supposed to sign this asap... .

So difficult to know! I would say... .Trust your intuition.  It sounds as if you are leaning toward taking your chances in front of the judge. If you got a good temp order from the judge, what would prevent you from still getting the RO provisions?

I have just skimmed all of the replies so I'm sorry if what I'm saying has been said.

It sounds like you're operating from a position of FOG - Fear, Obligation and Guilt.  In a healthy relationship, there's none of that. 

There's just love. 

I know that now that I'm in a healthy relationship, but I had to work through it before I could ask my emotionally abusive husband for a divorce. 

One thing that helped me immensely was when someone said, "Children learn what they experience.  Do you want your children to think that THIS is what a healthy relationship looks like?  Do you want them to seek out the same thing for themselves?  If they were married and came to you and asked, 'I'm in a relationship with a BPD person and they're treating me terribly and I'm miserable.  What should I do?'  Would you advise them to stay in the marriage?"

Another thing that helped me a lot was to picture sitting your children down and saying, "Hey kids.  Your mother is treating me horribly and I'm miserable in this relationship, but I'm going to stay for your sakes."  The kids would not want the burden of being the reason that you stayed in such an unhealthy relationship.  It's not fair to burden them with that. 

I have a theory that a happy person does not stray from a marriage.  You were clearly unhappy. 

Please extract yourself from this sick cycle while you still have the chance to show your children what a happy, healthy relationship CAN look like. 

My life partner and I are so happy and his children get to see what a healthy relationship should look like.  Full of love, respect, kindness and consideration.  Isn't THAT what you want your children to seek for themselves when they're older?

I just saw this.  This worries me greatly:  you agreeing to no overnights.  If a judge ordered you to have no overnights, that would be different, it would mean there was some reason (abuse, neglect or endangerment) to disallow overnights.  But agreeing to it means you're essentially okay with it and that there might even be an unstated reason for it.

What counsel or legal advice did the experienced lawyer give?  Was the other lawyer okay with that agreement?  I feel you need a second set of legal eyes on this!  If you do end up changing lawyer you don't want the new lawyer to complain about this agreement.

So she amended the agreement?  So you amend it too.  Hmm... .How about you amending the lack of overnights to END when child reaches ONE YEAR OF AGE or whatever age child will be 6 months from now?  (After all, she amended the agreement, so why not you?)

Or even better, add the clause that future orders will not be based upon this first initial agreement?

You need some way to document that you're not okay with lack of overnights for the youngest, at least not for very long.  Otherwise it will be an even harder uphill struggle to be a meaningful parent and father.

Ditto to what FD said!

You are supposed to sign this ASAP. Says who? Is there a court deadline?

I agree with FD, let the judge decide that there will be no overnights, not you. You are fully capable of having your kids overnight. Maybe your lawyer is hedging, and maybe she is right. But lawyers want to settle. They pride themselves on settling. So it's in their interest to get you to agree to something you don't want! Get a second opinion before you sign. Or see if you can include the amendments that FD suggested.

jmrsic, I'm going to be super blunt.

A lot of people like us sabotage ourselves during the divorce process. You have all the classic signs of someone sabotaging himself. Your thinking isn't clear -- taking much less during the divorce in order to salvage your marriage is sabotage thinking. You cannot absolve yourself for the problems in your marriage during a divorce. Right now, your job is to get the best temporary (permanent) order in place you possibly can, so you can have a loving, reasonable relationship with your kids. Totally separate issue.

Dealing with the feelings you have about your marriage = therapy

Fighting for a relationship with your kids = court

Separate issues. Don't confuse them.


You have taken care of your kids overnight while she's working swing shifts? And she let you? And they were even younger than they are now?

Your lawyer works for you! She should be taking this information and nailing it for you.

I agree 200%!

In a divorce a judge is "supposed" to take the best interests of the children as the priority.  Whether they really do that or not has been a matter of debate for decades.  Some judges are great and some are terrible but most are probably okay.  But if you make an agreement that is binding for who knows how long, then most judges will accept it as is even if they have their own reservations about the wisdom of the agreement's terms.

What YOU need to keep in mind is:

• NOT the failed relationship



• NOT on the who has the most fault in the relationship's failure



• NOT whether the relationship just maybe can be rescued by sacrifices



• NOT whether giving up parenting time & overnights might appease your ex slightly



• BUT... .on what is the reasonable best for the children

Is it best for the children to have very little parenting time with you?

Is it best for your youngest to have no overnights with you until who knows when?

Focus on those questions.  Ponder that.  Please.

Apparently your lawyer has a strategy to appease now and then turn around and reopen separately to address the issues more extensively.  I just have a concern that even if her deep issues and how they affect her parenting are later demonstrated more fully to the court that the court might say, "... .but since Mr J settled already for minimal time and no overnights then he's already expressed what he is okay with and therefore... ."  We're peer support here, we're not lawyers and probably most of us aren't even in your state, so we're not the legal experts on your options.  We're just expressing our concerns based on the experiences of ourselves and many others here.

Today has sucked.  I didn't get a chance to read replies until court, and signed the temp orders agreement.  They also pushed perm hearing to next calendar year, so 12-24 months of alimony due to Jan2014 law.

Oh, the judge rejected the protection order.  If STBX finds that out, her sense of entitlement will only be bolstered.  I guess I followed my L, should have paid more attention to my gut, and am stuck with this temp agreement until late Jan.  So much for a quick reset.

I also should have listened here more, I think... .  I am beyond down this afternoon... .

VERY discouraged, feeling like I have been ridden over roughshod.

How you're feeling is somewhat par for the course.  I felt terrible my first two plus years, my ex was in control and I was made to feel like a sixth finger, third arm, whatever example you can choose to denote an appendage that was tolerated but not wanted.  All the would've & could've feelings, yeah, I remember that too.  What's done is done, now focus on what's next.  Do you have wiggle room to change and improve the order at the next hearing.

Paying short term alimony is not the big issue, your parenting is.  Alimony is only a year or two, being a parent is forever and parenting a child is for the next two decades.

Thanks FD.  I needed some positive reassurance, and to know that these feelings are normal (a good "settlement" is where neither party feels like they won - although she might in this case).  This stipulation is just that (STBX's attorney messed up, she listed it as a temporary stipulation and the judge even acknowledged it and signed it as such).  While we can't request another hearing until permanent orders, there is always room for negotiation of everything in the interim.

With everything I felt went poorly today, I spent some time trying to look for the positives.

These are the wins I am counting (thus far):

- I am getting 3 work nights a week with my boys (including the 9mo old)

- I am getting one full weekend day (10 hours) with my boys

- 22 waking hours (whether they sleep here or not) is quite a bit.  It is more than half of my work evenings, and one weekend day each week.  If I make it really quality time (schedule activities, etc.), those hours may mean a LOT more than picking him up at daycare at 5pm and returning him to her on my way into the office the next morning (or some variation thereof).

- I am paying less than the "worst case" number for alimony... .  If they used the statutory number, it would have been much higher

- I didn't have to get on the stand and testify against her <-- realizing this could actually be a HUGE win.  Whatever I might have said (true or not) would have been perceived by her negatively... .

- I signed "her agreement", so she is getting what she wants.  While it may not improve things, at least it isn't making things worse... .

- I know what my schedule with the boys looks like for the next 3.5 months.  No more "surprise!"  This enables me to start scheduling business dinners, exec functions etc. that I have been neglecting since early July when things "blew up".

- While we didn't get the "quick reset" on permanent orders, it gives me plenty of time to find a new attorney should I choose to.

- With maintenance, I have a BIG tax deduction coming my way (off the top end of my tax bracket, which is HUGE for me).

With long-term maintenance, the income percentages become much closer (if not neck and neck), so they allocation of attorney fees and debt may be equitable.  With the quick reset and no long-term maintenance, I would have been stuck with my percentage of the debt & attorney fees.  Calculating that out, it offsets probably a third of the overall maintenance I will be paying.  Count in the tax write-off and that is another third.  It isn't nearly as bad when I look at it that way.

I am going to spend some time really ratcheting down my budget, figuring out how I am going to live on what they are leaving me with (really lucky I sold my other house so quickly -- REALLY lucky).

I am also going to spend some time REALLY weighing in, listing factors, scoring them, weighting them, and making a quantifiable decision to see if it matches my gut (my gut has been changing back and forth, but keeps going back to finding a new L).

My biggest issue now is how to ensure she doesn't mess with my employment.  If she were to go public about the affair, that could really hurt me.  I hope she doesn't do it one day when she is ticked to "get back at me", and that she truly realizes the "cash cow" she has for the next couple of years.  Since I couldn't get the protection order (let's face it, she could still have DONE it then, it would have just had big consequences), I need to figure out how to mitigate that risk (e.g. begin pre-messaging to appropriate folks, or heck -- maybe I start dating her just to make sure if it DOES come out, people already know).  In reality, I need some alone time, but this is the one last thing that is keeping me awake at night.

So yesterday she invites me to go shoe shopping with the kids (oldest soccer was cancelled, I had texted that I would like to see them).  We do lunch after.  She insists on going dutch.  She told me she loves me still (but made a couple of mean comments too.

She has been much more civil since court.  I guess my settling MAY have helped.  Not sure.

Much more communication initiated by her in the last day or so.

Sunday was uneventful.  Monday went well.  She invited me over to do some Halloween crafts with her and the boys and to eat dinner with them.  It was supposed to be my parenting time, but I figured it was good for the boys for us to do things together if we can do so without fighting.  She proposed doing it during her parenting time on Tuesday, but I had a work conflict.

Fast forward to yesterday, she FLIP FLOPPED 180 degrees.  She begins emailing me about disclosing the affair at work, citing specific coworkers' names (and their spouses names for the ones she met at a company event).  I call her and express that I felt like we had been co-parenting the boys well for a couple of days, and I would like to continue to keep it positive.  She goes off about how she wants to make sure everyone at my job knows "what I did", that if I lose my job it is because of my choice (not because she chose to air it publically), and that she doesn't care if it impacts her monetarily... .

I spoke with my attorney, and I am documenting the continued threats.  I have lost count of how many times she has made this threat.  I shouldn't be caught off guard with her "flip flopping", but it did just that -- catch me off guard.

<sigh>

Any other thoughts or suggestions for handling this (both on the preventing impact or communication with my employer and in dealing with her flip flopping) would be greatly appreciated... .

-J

You've recording her threats, right?  It may not be useful in most scenarios but at least if she later denies having made such threats then you'd have proof otherwise, whether it can be used or not.

Another thought... .she is fixated on this.  You've already discussed this topic with her, is there any advantage to rehashing this with her over and over?  There is no point to apologizing over and over ad nauseum, at that point it gets enabling.

This is what is called negative engagement.  It serves no useful purpose and enables the complaint to be kept alive.

Remember that in any written communications it should remain "alleged" and/or left vague.  That ought to reduce the risk of it blowing up in other ways.

The only thing you can handle is you! That's it. You stop engaging. You don't go to her house. You communicate by email. No phone. No house visits. Jmrslc handles jmrslc.

Every time you think about engaging with her, and choose not to, let yourself feel all those feelings you've boxed up inside you, the wretchedness, the loneliness, the searing pain. Feel the full force of it. Let go! It will be ok -- they are feelings that have to be felt so you can let the others one out, the good ones. Those are the ones that will help you handle this. Those are the feelings that will start taking care of you.

This thing you're doing with her, it's going to end badly. If your kids were a little bit older, this would confuse the hell out of them.

This scares me .  I don't know what else I can do to minimize the impact on my boys.

She called me last night.  I answered (I am a glutton for punishment, apparently).  She went off, I pretty much let her go.  She called me this morning to thank me for talking with her... .  She "doesn't think she can forgive me," but "sometimes she wants to."

She wants to hurt the other woman.  She is actively looking for ways to hurt her.  I am staying out of it, but am concerned about backlash at work.

This thing is all-consuming.  I don't know how to get to a point where it isn't chewing up all of mental cycles... .

Can you forgive yourself? Really, truly forgive yourself? Not just, "Ok, jmrslc, you made a mistake, she sorta created the conditions for an affair to happen, that wasn't cool, but it happened and now it's over, shoulda made different choices" etc., but deep forgiveness? Like looking inside at you, what you need, what you deserve, what it means to care for and love yourself?

I think that's the threshold. That's when the churn stops. Loving yourself and forgiving yourself are really closely tied together. Loving yourself because of what you did, loving yourself in spite of what you did, loving yourself married or divorced, affair or no, lonely or not.

I don't know how anyone can get through the churn while someone uses you as a punching bag, especially a pwBPD. That's the whole deal, to keep you on the hook with fear, obligation, and guilt. You having an affair is paydirt for someone who wants to hold you emotionally hostage. She makes you feel bad, then she feels better. If she senses you feel good, she winds you up for another round of guilt. I'm a survivor of that behavior too -- and I didn't have an affair. But I had to constantly fill N/BPDx's bottomless bucket. He was so sure I was having an affair, or wanted to have an affair, or would one day have an affair, or someone wanted to have an affair with me.    That stuff is a bottomless bucket.

There must be something familiar to you about this thing you are doing with her. Is this all you know? You are not a glutton for punishment, you are following a script. There are other scripts out there, ones where you love yourself, forgive yourself, are cherished, where you have boundaries, where someone loves you and forgives you for being human. That's why doing this in front of your kids is so sad, why it will end badly. You are teaching them that this is love. One day you will hear your children say the words your ex says to you, but they will direct it toward you. Or they will role play it with dolls, or other kids. Now you have a chance to teach them something so much more powerful. Validate who they are. Validate how they feel. Show them what healthy love looks like. Sincen you can't do it with your ex, then show them what healthy love looks like in yourself, and with them.

The best thing you can do for your kids is to role model someone who loves himself. Who has boundaries.

And be gentle with yourself as you figure this stuff out. It's a process. The early stages of divorce are about treading water, keeping your head above water. 

I spent 10 years with a dBPDw.  We had quite the script, and I stayed and played my part for a very long time.  I don't know why this is all I know, or why I continue these patterns.

I don't know if I can really forgive myself.  Since I am constantly looking OUTSIDE for validation, I am setting myself up for a very long and painful process where I never heal unless I can learn to start generating the right kinds of self-love, self-validation, setting boundaries, etc.  I feel very helpless in this area, as I have been going to counseling since adolescence trying to do those very things.  I never seem to make progress regardless of the therapists, the books I read, the support groups, etc.  It is eating me from the inside out.

Her parents still model this dysfunctional relationship decades later.  It is what she knows.  Now that I have wronged her, it is her "life's mission" to make sure I end up old, alone, unhappy, and bitter (her words).  Sure, she shouldn't have that level of control over my emotions, but I am ultra-sensitive to what others think, feel, and say around me. 

A part of me wishes I had a big undo button so I could go back to the (not very happy) marriage we had and just continue the status quo.  Obviously, that isn't possible now.

I did well this morning.  She called me, I didn't answer the phone.  I simply texted back "how are the boys?"

I am exhausted.  This is wearing me out physically, emotionally, and otherwise.  I don't know what to do except just get up, shower, go to work, come home and try and distract myself with TV or work.  If I have my boys, I try and engage with them and keep them busy.  I don't know if I can do the things you talk about in order for them to feel validated, know how to love themselves, etc.  It scares the living daylight out of me.  Knowing what I know now, she and I had no business having kids.  We had too many issues, and kids just up'ed the anti.

Attorneys... .<sigh>

I have spoken with a dozen or so.  Monetarily speaking, I chose the wrong line of work.

I do think my attorney is a bit passive, and that she lacks understanding of N/BPD.

That having been said, with temp orders in place, the range of parenting time isn't extremely large at this point.  What I have is probably a decent baseline.  While I want overnights, I am getting more days than is recommended in the state guideline.   In talking with the other attorneys, the reoccurring theme has been getting the child family investigator involved to put together the progressive parenting plan (so the judge isn't doing it on the fly).  That set my ex off, who then threatened (again) to take the kids out of state.  Everyone involved feels that is an extremely unlikely outcome as the courts don't want to split the parents and would rather see frequent exchanges (moving 1500 miles away would make that difficult).

I am not sure what the [literally] $10-20k additional money I would have to spend to get a new attorney up to speed and then litigate the permanent orders hearing is going to buy me.

Please feel free to comment if I am being naive, stupid, or otherwise.

My biggest gripe with my attorney is that I keep finding out about things (discussions, negotiations, demands, etc.) from my stbUN/BPDexw.  My Attorney needs to be doing a better job of keeping me in the loop.

I am already at ~$25k+ in legal debt, and I suspect she is somewhere in the same ballpark.  I literally called one of the most expensive attorneys in the state (leads several of the state legal boards and societies, close to $500/hr).  I didn't feel like I was going to get that much of a different outcome.  The only one I MIGHT consider swapping to would be the one who is familiar with "Splitting" (the book) and with ":)ivorce Poison".  He actually recommended splitting to me (after I had read about it on this forum). 

The only other gripe I have is that we set for a four hour (half day) permanent orders hearing.  I am willing to bet money (how about another four hours worth of 2x attorney's time) that this requires a full day... .

Not sure about where you live, but in my state, once you've filed for custody, moving out of state might as well be nearly impossible if one parent disagrees. I was offered a job across the country and looked into it. There are 10 criteria for allowing a parent to move with the kids. Even if I met 9 or 10 of the criteria, it could still take 9 months. Partly because of the slow court calendar. And that doesn't even take into account if N/BPDx fought me every step of the way. I know other people here have spouses who move with the kids, so maybe my state is extra difficult. I don't know.

As for switching attorneys and going into greater debt... .that's a hard decision. Because you may have some tendencies to self-sabotage yourself, it might be even more important to get an attorney who has a very clear goal and strategy for your case. That might matter more than anything. If you were very clearly done with your marriage and psychologically able to take care of yourself, having a passive lawyer might not be as much of a handicap. I became a much more active client with way more backbone after I was out of the marriage for a year. But those early days, I needed a strong L. She prevented me from hurting myself financially. I tried to do what a lot of us here do -- give him a better financial deal because I felt guilty.

My lawyer wouldn't let me. Now I'm glad! I've needed that money to keep paying her to fight N/BPDx.  

Permanent orders?  So soon?  Yikes!

The typical START of a case is TEMPORARY orders.  The typical END of a case is the FINAL order.  Did I miss something?  Aren't you just starting your case, have you even been in front of a judge yet?  Any psych evaluations?  Parenting evaluation?  Custody Evaluation?

Why is it that in temporary orders you don't have overnights?  Was it a judge's decision (not willing to change the current situation) or a lousy 'deal' or settlement (since that was all ex was allowing)?

Are you trying to make deals?  Too often you can't 'negotiate' with someone who isn't reasonable and can't/won't listen to reason.  In that case you have to make sure the obstruction is revealed in parenting and custody evaluations.  And those take time.

I've said this often.  The only basis the court will block overnights is: (1) abuse, (2) neglect, (3) endangerment, (4) temporarily while investigating claims of abuse, neglect or endangerment, or (5) the parent being obstructed doesn't object.  Which number are you?  You will end up with no overnights if you don't stand up for yourself.

If it's about the expense of paying lawyers now, sorry, will you look back 5, 10, 15 years from now and think your savings now were in your best interests or your children's best interests?  Does that lawyer who recommends Splitting suggest permanent orders now, bypassing comprehensive evaluations?

If I may, I borrowed this post from yesterday, another father whose parenting is being obstructed... .his ex was demanding only conditional visits supervised by her.  Note how that judge recognized the current situation but was determined to move the parenting up closer to the usual parenting schedules.  (My emphasis)


His last comment is one we all have experienced... ."I think its a small step forward but I wish I got longer visitation with her."

The point here is that if it was left up to his ex or deals with his ex then he would not have gotten anything more than restricted token time.  But the judge looked forward and is phasing in more time.  Mother was opposed and so the judge conceded that concern by phasing in the longer visits.  But the judge was determined to get the visitation to a more normal level.

Sadly, we generally get far better treatment from a judge, a stranger, than from our former loved one.


Of course she objected, she knows it would benefit you, not her.  You NEED a child family investigator.  If you get a permanent order before doing that, then you wouldn't have that information to present to the court for a better outcome.

Her threats may sound horrible now, but the court will win, if you let it do its thing.

exactly.    I said something I regretted and apologized.    my apology meant nothing.   she kept bringing up the comment I regretted over and over and over when she raged.    there was no forgiving.

FD -

We happen to live in the most expeditious county in this state.  My attorney was actually surprised that perm orders were set for January, as she thought we would be set for Nov/Dec based on the court's docket.  She has seen entire cases finish (from file to perm orders) finish before the mandatory 90-day waiting period for the divorce decree to be signed.  This without settlements... .

Temporary orders hearing was a few weeks ago.  I agreed to no overnights (at the recommendation of my attorney) but in exchange for a "quick reset" and more "awake" time (I got another day).  I get them Mon/Wen/Fri after work until bedtime, and then again almost all day on Sundays.  I have been leaving work at 3:30 so I get at least ~4 hours a night with them M/W/F.  That is more than half of my awake time that I am not working (setting aside the overnight element).  My attorney continued to stress that I shouldn't worry about this setting some sort of precedence.  I am getting conflicting information, but other attorneys are telling me that I may have just set the baseline for which the progressive parenting will begin.

Why did I settle? 

A) more "awake" time with my boys was a compromise I was willing to make at the time (not knowing the consequences).  Since we had a signed stipulation (but only the night before), we appeared before the judge, he read it, and vacated the hearing. It shows that the boys can be away from her at length, and I have been putting them in their pajamas and doing their bedtime ritual before returning them to her.  She also has stopped sending milk, so I just supplement with formula.

B) I felt like NOT getting up on the stand and talking about everything bad/horrific she has done would somehow help me in the long run.  She still believes that all of her negative behaviors were 100% MY fault due to the affair (she said as much yesterday, flabbergasted that I couldn't see it).  Sure, I would have been right and justified to get up there and talk about it, but it would have set her off. 

C)  She has been throwing me breadcrumbs (still), and I respond.  I have been invited to do additional things, and I want to keep getting that additional time. 

D) I {STUPIDLY} have some ill conceived notion that she and I might reconcile.  I continue to hear at least once a week that she still loves me, but that she could never be with me (physically or otherwise), that she deserves someone who wouldn't have done what I did, and that my choices "must be the most horrific affair that has ever happened."  When she tells the horror story, I cringe.  She is extremely intelligent, and has concocted quite a story & backdrop.  Every time I get a breadcrumb, or hear her say she still loves me, I lose any/all resolve and begin to think about what I can do to get her back ;/.  What was the quote I read somewhere on here?  "I guess you haven't suffered enough yet... ."

There have been no Psych evals, family, parenting, or other evaluations.  I am trying to get a child and family investigator involved (we are filing that motion this week), and that set her off.

As for which number I am, she claims #2 (I had the other woman over after kids went to bed, had long phone calls on blue-tooth while caring for the kids).  None of the attorneys I have spoken with are worried about either of those.  In reality, I am probably more of #5, in that I need to stand up for myself. 

I was recently introduced to an attorney (I know their case well, I was the one who printed the full-page photos documenting abuse for the W -- long story).  She was the opposing L and he got 5 overnights every two weeks with a ~3yo.  He is #1 and #2 with pictures AND child family investigator reports stating it. I have been considering hiring her.  She is reasonably priced, aggressive, and won't let me "settle".  The fact that she represented this other guy (I will reserve further judgement but mention my severe disdain for him), and he got that positive of an outcome (granted the W was more like me -- passive, and they SETTLED) tells me she isn't going to let me cave.

I spent 90 minutes with her on the phone, and she pretty much made it clear that she doesn't mess around.  She tries to work with the other attorney if possible, then just pursues things aggressively.  It is a bit goofy for the judges in my county as they rotate in from another district (small county).  She doesn't know this judge, and that is the one thing that worries her.  She already knows the connections and people involved, and isn't concerned about a conflict of interest.

I am too nice to fire my own attorney -- that is my current dilemma... .  I have been thinking about it daily, and keep convincing myself that the outcome can't really swing that far from where it is now.  I am not likely to get LESS parenting time,  I am unlikely to pay substantially MORE than we both already agreed to (especially since we are way outside of any of the bracketed formulas here).

I am not sure how I can have such a spine in business and be so weak on the personal front.  My T and I have been discussing that lately... .

I was unable to have frequent exchanges with my ex, she used the exchanges, generally in the sheriff's lobby, as a way to make allegations.  That's why I pushed for exchanges at school or daycare.  Daycare was expensive but well worth the distance.

Back in our early years, when I picked up our then-preschooler, he would come running to me.  When I brought him back he would often be crying and refuse to go to her or stay with her as I left.  Her slanted question?  "What did you do to him?"

I feel that frequent exchanges when the younger children are considered fine but in time you'll need to reduce exchanges in years to come.  You'll want weekends that are yours and yours alone, no exchanges with the other parent splitting the weekend, children are with a parent all weekend for whatever activities the parent has planned.

If they rush the divorce, I have heard of some courts here that grant a divorce even before settling the custody, is that what your court does, do they grant divorce but leave the custody issue open longer to allow time for a parenting investigation or custody evaluation?

My first attorney was from out of the county and didn't want to keep me, she recommended a local lawyer she had faced in court before, as Bill Eddy describes in Splitting, she said he was a "problem solver".  Later, when I thought the case was going too slow, I contemplated changing attorneys.  However I couldn't afford the one recommended, so I stayed with mine.  I've had him for over 7 years.  Why thoughts?  Yes, we have a normal reluctance to change from the current choices, but if you believe you would be better represented and more likely to reach your goals with a different lawyer, then politely change.  Remember, for them it's a job, for you it's your Life as a Parent.  Big difference there.  A good lawyer won't take it personally if you decide you need to change to a different lawyer more appropriate for your needs.  Like divorce, choosing lawyers should not be mostly businesslike, not based upon emotions and friendships.


Yes, get a child and family investigator involved.  As for your spouse, anything can set her off, literally anything and especially anything she feels isn't in her favor.  Accept that and do what you need to do.

I already get this, regularly.  It is also "what did you feed him" (he has food allergies), WOW you didn't put on sunscreen, and a plethora of other things.  I could put him in a bubble and she would find something to say I did wrong.

She has a new favorite phrase.  It has an inferred meaning that no one would get unless I explain it.  She just keeps saying "I wish I had a million dollars."  She has my son saying it.  It stemmed from her stating repeatedly ~2 months ago that she wished I would just shoot myself since I have well over $1M in life insurance (well beyond incontestability phase -- meaning past the suicide clauses).  She says it often, in front of others, and it sounds innocent enough (who wouldn't want a million dollars -- right?).  What she is actually saying is "just pull the %^#x trigger already."

I smoked a cigarette tonight.  Since no one here knows me, they wouldn't even understand. 

a) I have ridiculous allergies (shots 4-6 times a week)

b) I am a long distance runner (or was)

c) I can't stand the smell (I had to throw my clothes into the wash and shower afterwards).

-- NO offense intended to anyone who smokes -- Just trying to portray how poorly I am feeling right now as it relates to my situation, frame of mind, etc.

I am feeling beyond irreparably broken; emotionally, mind, spirit, situation, all of the above.  I go back and see the MD who writes for my antidepressant this week.  I think it is time to tell him that this one just isn't working.  We have already doubled the dose, and it has had plenty of time... .

I will see what my L comes back with tomorrow, but I think it is time.

I went through all of my domains and websites tonight and changed ALL index files to blank headers & content.  No more family albums, blogs, links, stories, etc.  It was a "cleansing" of sorts.  I still own the domain names (even the one of her name and mine concatenated).  I will keep my sons' as they may want them one day -- who knows.

In a bit of a dark place tonight

As to your comment about parenting, they fully intend to set parenting at the perm orders hearing.  It is "typical" here in this area to go back and revisit parenting 5-10 times before your kids turn 18.  I guess that's what happens when you don't setup a realistic progressive parenting plan up front... .

Interesting IC session this week.  She doesn't want a "diagnosis" to follow me around, but she wants me to start to figure out my patterns, who I really am, and learn to like myself.  It looks like I meet the majority of the characteristics of DPD (Dependent personality disorder).  Ironically, not so much in the workplace (but pervasive in my personal life).

It explains (doesn't justify) why when my stbx was redirecting her attention to everything but me (and when she kept saying I was too needy) I latched on to someone else.  In reality, I might have actually been too needy (for HER).

Trying to sit with it, learn from it, understand it, decide what I feel is accurate and "own it" if that makes sense.  It is a lot better than the last 15+ years of going to therapy and not having any idea "what was wrong with me" or why I stayed in bad situations (or rushed into relationships despite red flags). 

On the divorce front, we are trying to put together a settlement offer.  I am concerned we are just wasting time and money since stbx isn't likely going to accept it.  It is very generous on every front (parenting, money, property, abandons some of my pre-marital claims to cash/assets, etc.).  I have had a real come to jesus with my L about this, and while I am probably giving too much, I am almost positive my stbx will not take it (and I will feel like I gave it my all at that point).

She made some nasty comment last night when I dropped the boys off, I texted her that I felt we do much better when we limit our communications to the boys, to which she replied "stop texting me things like that" <sigh what the heck moment>.  This after she calls me for advice about what car service to do, calls me today to discuss something else.  This "only about the boys" thing isn't holding up ;/.

The one thing this diagnosis has done for me is help me realize why I was struggling letting go (at least a little -- I still have a lot of reflection and self-actualization to do).  I was more dependent on her [insert random person] and the ideology than "in love" with her.

It does scare me that I may struggle to ever really find true emotional intimacy ;/

Almost a month has gone by.  I am dying inside.  I have reached a real low point in my life.  I rarely go back and forth between hoping for reconciliation.  Once or twice in the last few weeks, only to get an ear full. 

I have lost most of my support system, and the ones I have left have lost any trust or respect for me.

I wake up everyday to a nightmare.

My L finally "fired me".  She says this is the most high conflict divorce she has ever seen and she referred me to her mentor.  I am another multiple four figures in debt just for the "ramp up" time.  My STBex is vilifying me to everyone.  I don't even know that the child family investigator will see through her crap.  Heck, I believe it most of the time.

Dying inside, not sure how to keep going. 

You will get through this, but you have to pull yourself through it, jmrslc. Your L did not fire you, she recognized that she does not have enough experience. People have been saying that gently to you for a while.

This is the dark side of the hero's journey. Don't know any other way to say it. You won't be the same when you come out the other side, but you have to make choices, it doesn't just happen by itself. Choose to believe that you are ok. Makes it easier for others to feel the same way.

She has been asking me constantly to negotiate.  Latest text dialog (sanitized for personable identifiable info):

HER: I sent email about parenting. 8:51 PM

HER: You are not responding BC you want control. It is sad. 9:11 PM

Me: This has nothing to do with control... .Please stop. I am thinking about what you sent, but am concerned that it still equates to one overnight a week, even once s11mo is three. 2.5s will be almost 5. 9:14 PM

Me: My boys deserve more time with me than one overnight a week and a few hours twice a week. 8:03 AM

HER: Deserve? Is is a sentence you giving them. If they deserved it, where were you all that time before you true priorities (you/her) were discovered? Let a CFI or judge decide then. 8:15 AM

Me: So you don't want to negotiate and try to save time, money, and do the best thing for the boys, and not hand off the decisions to a random third party? 8:27 AM

HER: That is what you and your attorney have started. These are my children. I am not buying a new car. What I have proposed is a lot of their waking time when you are not working. It is certainly more time than you have a history of spending with them. 8:33 AM

Me: You asked if we were going to negotiate. That implies not taking an inflexible position. Where is there room for movement? Help me understand. 8:52 AM

HER: Summers 8:53 AM

Me: What do you mean? 8:53 AM

HER: I firmly believe weekday overnights are detrimental once school starts. 8:54 AM

HER: You can have an additional overnight during "summer" plus vaca time 8:54 AM

Me: I would like to have an overnight during the week too... .8:55 AM

HER: They are too young for that many now. 8:55 AM

Me: 2.5s is not 8:56 AM

HER: Do not separate them. You destroyed their family. They need to be a unit. I don't care what that mediation paper said... .being a unit is best for them. They are their own consistent family. 9:01 AM

HER: Do not desperate them. 9:01 AM

Me: If we can work this out ourselves, I am all for it, but neither one of us can take a hard stance. 9:01 AM

HER: I am not going to budge on that. 9:02 AM

Me: so you won't budge on separating them, you won't budge on more than one overnight per week until 2.5s is school age, you won't budge on weekday overnights. 9:05 AM


Do I let the judge or CFI decide?  <sigh>

You need to stop texting about child custody. Texting is what you do when you ask what groceries to pick up, or where to meet for coffee.

Custody is what you discuss with your lawyer.

You are dying inside because you keep putting yourself in the line of fire. She is high-functioning BPD and using all the techniques, and you are not strong enough right now for this.

No more texting, jmrslc.

Also, weekday overnights are not detrimental. I shared her perspective when I was in mediation. Kids do remarkably well, much better than we do.

Who else would you want to decide?  Based on your accounts thus far, the LAST person you would want involved in deciding parenting is your blaming/belittling ex.  So if you're pondering letting her make the decisions... .yikes!

LnL wrote well.  Your ex is still frothing with blaming.  Still.  You can't deal with that.  So stop trying to reason with her, at least for the long term schedules and issues.  In her eyes you are, how do I say it, remember the shark movie and the sea creature that was told he was less than whale poo?  Yeah, you can't make a settlement with someone making you out to be someone who doesn't care and who would probably not honor any agreement anyway.  I've posted here before that most courts will automatically assign you more time than she is willing to 'allow' you to have.  Yes, if she makes allegations you might get less while they have someone to assess things and verify you're not a danger to the children but eventually you will get far more from the court than from her.

Typical schedule for children under 3:  alternate weekends (sometimes shorter) and up to 2-3 visits or overnights in between.

Typical schedule for children 3 & over:  alternate weekends and 1-2 visits or overnights in between.

You've been here 3 months.  When is your next court date?  Surely it must be soon.  Try your best not to let her delay it.  She is blocking your reasonable parental access to the children.  The court will remedy that but not until you get into court.

By the way, have you gotten the import of our suggestions and comments?  You keep coming back with the same issues multiple times.  It's almost like she's able to make you run around in circles and not get anywhere.  And our replies are pretty much the same:  Do the best you can with parenting for now, give up the idea of reasoning with her, her incessant blaming won't allow her to listen to anything reasonable you try to say and get into court with a capable experienced attorney as soon as you can.  And when you do get into court don't be timid, you're a capable father who wants as much parenting as possible so make sure the court sees that.

The next court date is TBD, as we vacating the hearing.  A CFI has been appointed, and one of the motions we filed was for the judge to immediately set a status conference once her findings are complete to give me more parenting time. 

My new attorney seems to have the "cajones" to stand up to my ex and her L.

Today has been hard.  She is seeing someone, and I got my boys for the day so she could go on an all-day date.  I know it is par for the course, but I am struggling with her dating so soon .

As an aside, my new L says "we are not negotiating with her, we are letting the judge decide".

hi jmrslc. i haven't legal advice to give like the excellent regulars on this board, but i am sorry to read your story   and to read the behavior of your wife. i'm also going into a divorce with a high functioning BPDw and i know, i really know, how awful it is. maybe step by step we can get through it. and if you've got a tougher L now, then you've made the best start. like foreverdad says, don't be timid about asserting your interests, your new lawyer will help with that.

Good for you!  As we had hoped, over time she will let go, well, at least a little.


Accept this:  She is an adult, she has the right to live her life as she decides.  Yes, even if they're the wrong decisions.  Yes, it sucks that she's barely separated, still married and already dating.  If it's any consolation, her quick resumption of dating is a common experience here, it seems the PD ex-spouses have to jump into a new relationship ASAP.  If anything, it shows they're not the least bit introspective to figure out what about themselves contributed to the marriage's demise.  Which is also why we encourage our members to be a bit slow about seeking out a new relationship "on the bounce-back".

Repeat, her choice to date so soon is a reflection about her, not you.  Let Go.  Move on.  Gradually it will get better, acceptance and recovery is a painful process that takes time, not an event.  Live your life better, while for now giving yourself time to recover.

I am in a bad place right now... .

Yes, I am an idiot for cheating. There is no excuse for it, and it only adds to my shame-based thinking and self-loathing.

My ex (or soon to be) has reminded me a few times that my net worth is much more dead due to my life insurance policies.

<sigh>

Please, don't be her Whipping Boy.  Yes, you did wrong, so did she, so have all of us.  We're all imperfect.  The Big Question is whether we take that experience and learn from it and change course.  From what I've read, you have.  And she hasn't.

Sadly, she will keep berating you and belittling you.  It's your choice whether you will let her verbal attacks hit or bounce off.

You can say "I'm sorry" just so many times before more apologies become unhealthy.  Yes, you stumbled badly.  But you stopped and tried to fix things.  Clearly she does not recognize that and has not let go even though she too has done serious missteps as well.  Clearly she can see how this impacts you and so of course she refuses to stop pushing your buttons over and over.  She will do and say whatever she wishes, you have little control over that.  So what do you have control over, what can YOU do?  You will sink in quicksand if you don't find a way to block, disregard or minimize her withering verbal abuse.  As has often been repeated here, Don't let her rent a room in your head!  Don't gift her that power and leverage over you!

So, can you deflect or ignore her snide remarks and endless-blaming?  Figure out some techniques to withstand those assaults?  Picture her walking around, point her finger at you saying, "Blah, Blah, Blah... ."  Or imagine that around her you have the invisible shield around you and she can't reach you.  Or imagine her insults falling off you just like water off a duck's back.  Whatever it takes to help you see that her foaming and frothing at the mouth is not under your control, but whether you let it impact you is up to you.

Here's another example... .how would you feel if a stranger walked up to you and said what she says.  It wouldn't have much impact, would it?  Yes, it might hurt a little but you'd be able to brush it off, knowing it wasn't true, not any more.  So what's the difference between her and a stranger?  You are still letting her get too close to you, knowing now as you do that she's no longer a friend and has made herself a staunch enemy.  Work on that.  Why let an enemy continue hurting you?

Disclaimer:  Even now, over 8 years since separation, what my ex says still hurts.  I have to admit that.  But I try to limit how much it hurts.  I try to keep emotional distance.

What is next for you jmrslc? The divorce is imminent, she is dating. Your T thinks you might be dependent personality disorder. What do you think needs to happen next so you can begin healing?