Co-parenting with UdBPD/NPD stbx wife

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I haven't been on in a bit.  Was impacted by some flooding, some issues at work, trying to sell my house, packing, and trying not to go crazy with the insanity of it all.

My previous threads:

Intro:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=208771.0

Legal fight

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=209298.0

I am stuck in BPD/NPD limbo, as my therapist puts it.  She is exemplifying two interesting traits:

On the BPD side, she keeps telling me she loves me, can't imagine her life without me, thought we would grow old together, but that she just can't be with me (due to my choices).  She has invited me over to "plead her case" as it relates to the ongoing custody battle.  It always ends with me apologizing, her telling me there is nothing else to talk about, and me going home in tears.  She wants me to have no overnights, and wants complete control over the children.  I have accepted that a judge is likely going to give me more than she is offering, which I believe is why she has been nicer to me in recent days... .

On the NPD side, she truly believes my infidelity is unforgivable.  Maybe it is.  Maybe it just is for her.  I do know from my own reading and from my T that NPD (and many Cluster B) individuals have a hard time forgiving, and that even if she took me back this would like be thrown in my face regularly for life.

My apologizing only bolsters her ego, her sense of entitlement, adds to her "story" that she is telling the world.  I firmly believe if she had a secured a firm backup plan (e.g. father figure) for the children, she would have discarded me altogether, letting the courts do their thing.

Some of the yo-yo stuff hasn't been to recycle me back in by way of salvaging the marriage, but it has been to keep me close (I believe to get me to acquiesce to her legal demands after the law clerk essentially gave her the stink eye for telling her no overnights for my ~s2.5).

I move this week.  I keep saying I would do anything to keep my family together.  I am NOT posting in the undecided section though for two reasons:  1)  She has made it pretty clear that there will never be an "us" (that remains to be seen, but is the status quo).  2)  We are in the midst of it from a legal perspective.

Status hearing is on the 4th.  I met with a new law firm that wasn't sure they wanted to try and get up to speed that quickly.  I don't think my L is doing a bad job (based on what I saw in the status conference), I just don't think she gets (or even wants to get) personality disorders and how they contribute to high conflict divorces.

I am torn (staying vs. going), but the snowball is rolling downhill towards the D route so I am going to stay here for a bit.

Not much else has changed.  My son is acting out a bit, but stbxW has invited me over for dinner to substitute for activities he isn't going to due to his behavior.  Ulterior motives to my going over there?  I don't know.

I DID ask her to reconsider her response to my petition for legal separation (she responded asking the courts to make it a divorce).  She hasn't given me an answer on that yet.

I am probably just setting myself up for more hurt anyway.

[jmrslc]

I haven't been on in a bit.  Was impacted by some flooding, some issues at work, trying to sell my house, packing, and trying not to go crazy with the insanity of it all.

My previous threads:

Intro:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=208771.0

Legal fight

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=209298.0

I am stuck in BPD/NPD limbo, as my therapist puts it.  She is exemplifying two interesting traits:

On the BPD side, she keeps telling me she loves me, can't imagine her life without me, thought we would grow old together, but that she just can't be with me (due to my choices).  She has invited me over to "plead her case" as it relates to the ongoing custody battle.  It always ends with me apologizing, her telling me there is nothing else to talk about, and me going home in tears.  She wants me to have no overnights, and wants complete control over the children.  I have accepted that a judge is likely going to give me more than she is offering, which I believe is why she has been nicer to me in recent days... .

On the NPD side, she truly believes my infidelity is unforgivable.  Maybe it is.  Maybe it just is for her.  I do know from my own reading and from my T that NPD (and many Cluster B) individuals have a hard time forgiving, and that even if she took me back this would like be thrown in my face regularly for life.

My apologizing only bolsters her ego, her sense of entitlement, adds to her "story" that she is telling the world.  I firmly believe if she had a secured a firm backup plan (e.g. father figure) for the children, she would have discarded me altogether, letting the courts do their thing.

Some of the yo-yo stuff hasn't been to recycle me back in by way of salvaging the marriage, but it has been to keep me close (I believe to get me to acquiesce to her legal demands after the law clerk essentially gave her the stink eye for telling her no overnights for my ~s2.5).

I move this week.  I keep saying I would do anything to keep my family together.  I am NOT posting in the undecided section though for two reasons:  1)  She has made it pretty clear that there will never be an "us" (that remains to be seen, but is the status quo).  2)  We are in the midst of it from a legal perspective.

Status hearing is on the 4th.  I met with a new law firm that wasn't sure they wanted to try and get up to speed that quickly.  I don't think my L is doing a bad job (based on what I saw in the status conference), I just don't think she gets (or even wants to get) personality disorders and how they contribute to high conflict divorces.

I am torn (staying vs. going), but the snowball is rolling downhill towards the D route so I am going to stay here for a bit.

Not much else has changed.  My son is acting out a bit, but stbxW has invited me over for dinner to substitute for activities he isn't going to due to his behavior.  Ulterior motives to my going over there?  I don't know.

I DID ask her to reconsider her response to my petition for legal separation (she responded asking the courts to make it a divorce).  She hasn't given me an answer on that yet.

I am probably just setting myself up for more hurt anyway.

[catnap]

I think that pwBPD do have trouble in truly forgiving.  I do believe that she invites you over under false pretexts so that she can berate you some more.  Please keep records of these visits and her invitations (if something you can print out--email or text).  Always be recording when you are with her. 

Status hearing is on the 4th.  I met with a new law firm that wasn't sure they wanted to try and get up to speed that quickly.  I don't think my L is doing a bad job (based on what I saw in the status conference), I just don't think she gets (or even wants to get) personality disorders and how they contribute to high conflict divorces.

Couldn't they ask for a continuance to get up to speed if not ready by the 4th?

[ForeverDad]

"She believes it is unforgivable."  That's typical BPD, NPD, etc thinking.  Even if she did forgive you now, she would likely put it away in the background and throw it at you every time she was ranting and raging.  They can't seem to let go of perceived injustices, party too because they can't or won't see their own part in it so of course none of it can even slightly be their fault.  Like a record with a damaged groove, she would keep going back to it over and over and over.

Frankly, though, it is her choice whether to forgive you or not.  If she chooses not to, that is her right.  Even reasonably normal spouses might refuse to forgive.  However, it is not right for her to block your parenting because of an adult relationship action.  That's what she says and feels, but it's more about her inability to forgive and move on, inability to see that there is always some gray in between the black and white of life.  So hopefully court will separate her adult relationship rejection from her choosing to punish you by ending your parenting as well.  You likely won't be married to her when the court case is over, but you will ALWAYS be your child's father.  Court knows that.  Court may move slow, it may move in tiny baby steps, but generally it does get around to issuing reasonable orders.  But you need to stand up for yourself and convince the court you aren't going to be the typical stereotyped absentee dad.  Please be assertive of your parental rights and your proper parenting so that the court sees you really do care.  (Your spouse will surely claim you don't care about your child, don't want your child, don't love your child, etc, etc.  Be prepared for false allegations, nasty ones.   They are often made when the spouse realizes the mild entitled blocking isn't working.)

Well, I've already sounded off on the practicality long term of Legal Separation vs Divorce, so I'll say no more about that.  If you think it would work to live your life On Hold simmering on the back burner (stove analogy) then you can try it.  If she's not getting therapy, applying it and making real progress it will be a long lonely wait for you.

[jmrslc]

I think that pwBPD do have trouble in truly forgiving.  I do believe that she invites you over under false pretexts so that she can berate you some more.  Please keep records of these visits and her invitations (if something you can print out--email or text).  Always be recording when you are with her. 

Status hearing is on the 4th.  I met with a new law firm that wasn't sure they wanted to try and get up to speed that quickly.  I don't think my L is doing a bad job (based on what I saw in the status conference), I just don't think she gets (or even wants to get) personality disorders and how they contribute to high conflict divorces.

Couldn't they ask for a continuance to get up to speed if not ready by the 4th?

Catnap, I am not sure about the continuance.  I think my stbx sort of short them in the foot.  Her attorney was trying to push it out as far as possible when my stbx (who wants it DONE) said "I will take this day off, let's do it then".

I didn't carry a recording device last night.  I am an idiot, as I should have.  It was an amazing evening until my oldest went to bed wherein it went to hell.  I was berated, all the dirt dug up, and eventually told if I didn't leave she was calling the police (I was out of there in 5 seconds flat).  I already sent my synopsis to my attorney, but I am torn as I got a good quality 3-4 hours with my boys before 30 minutes of hell.

I believe SHE truly believes that overnights are the worst thing for the kids, and that she is doing me some kind of favor by keeping me in their lives (such as the invite to dinner last night - - there was no agenda that I saw).  She fllipped mostly because I brought up not wanting to lose the family (yes, i am still stuck there mentally while reality is divorce).  I had asked her to change her petition response to legal separation to give us time.

She doesn't think it is forgivable.  To me, forgiveness comes from the heart.  You never forget, you may even be more wary and lest trusting in the future, but forgiveness truly comes from the heart... .

[jmrslc]

They can't seem to let go of perceived injustices, party too because they can't or won't see their own part in it so of course none of it can even slightly be their fault. 

This rings ESPECIALLY true.  We went to marriage counseling several times with different counselors about my emotional needs being unmet.  She now says had she known I needed more on that front, she would have done "everything in her power" to meet my needs.  In the next sentence, she went on about how my emotional needs are excessive and no one should get praise for wiping their own ***.  I didn't want praise for everything, but by gosh, she had EVERYTHING she could have wanted, and I was working my tail off to get us there.  The reason I strayed was complex, but the other woman was constantly validating my efforts, my contributions, and me as a person.  My T says I may have a higher need for that than most, and BPD/NPD are likely going to struggle to meet that need.

I mention before, but she doesn't talk to her own mother, one of her brothers, and barely the rest of her immediate family.  She has now cut my family out because their support of me is a slight against her.

She refused to acknowledge fault, even for her EXTREMELY inappropriate comments to/around the kids afterwards.  I reference many in previous threads, but the things she said are reprehensible (wishing I would shoot myself, find the kids another daddy, come her s2.5, let's tell daddy what a piece of S*** he is).  She sees NO fault in these things (her words last night) as she was reacting, and therefore she has no responsibility for her actions... .

I think you are right, even if I "got my family back", this would be used as a club to whack me with at her every whim.

Hopefully nothing coming out of last night's dialogue comes back to bite me... .

[jmrslc]

Sorry for the additional post... .

Maybe someone can point me in the right direction for trying to figure out my own irrational thinking, whether codependency, low self-esteem, etc.

I can't figure out why this marriage failing is absolutely devastating me.  I feel like I need to salvage it at all costs (and trust me, I am considering taking much less than I should to try and salvage it).

My close friends are pointing out the issues and how unhappy I was before I stepped out (leading to my stepping out).  I am struggling because I can't figure out how much of that was there beforehand vs. me trying to rationalize/compartmentalize the affair.

I have essentially been begging her back, constantly (which is only empowering her)... .

[ForeverDad]

And you also risk her claiming you're stalking or harassing her.

Have you ready about the 5 stages of grieving a relationship loss?  One stage is Bargaining, maybe you're stuck there?  You so much want to have something that you're even willing to go back into the cooking pot and simmer some more.

Fortunately the last stage is Acceptance.  You'll get there, just focus your eyes ahead, not behind.

(In my case I 'accepted' it was over after she had already driven away all our friends and all my relatives, suspecting virtually anyone and everyone as "probably" abusers, it was when she started looking at me suspiciously when I was around our preschooler, that was my Wake Up Call.  Scared me to my core, I had no desire to risk wearing orange jumpsuits for a decade or two.)

www.psychcentral.com/lib/the-5-stages-of-loss-and-grief/000617

www.hubpages.com/hub/Relationships-Ending-The-Five-Stages-of-Grief

[jmrslc]

And you also risk her claiming you're stalking or harassing her.

Have you ready about the 5 stages of grieving a relationship loss?  One stage is Bargaining, maybe you're stuck there?  You so much want to have something that you're even willing to go back into the cooking pot and simmer some more.

Fortunately the last stage is Acceptance.  You'll get there, just focus your eyes ahead, not behind.

(In my case I 'accepted' it was over after she had already driven away all our friends and all my relatives, suspecting virtually anyone and everyone as "probably" abusers, it was when she started looking at me suspiciously when I was around our preschooler, that was my Wake Up Call.  Scared me to my core, I had no desire to risk wearing orange jumpsuits for a decade or two.)

www.psychcentral.com/lib/the-5-stages-of-loss-and-grief/000617

www.hubpages.com/hub/Relationships-Ending-The-Five-Stages-of-Grief

Well put.  She has already made claims that my trying to get her back is "playing mind games".  I am struggling in getting out of this phase, and will spend some time reading what you posted... .

[jmrslc]

You likely won't be married to her when the court case is over, but you will ALWAYS be your child's father.

I guess I need to re-read the grieving steps, however this statement (while true) is really tugging at my heart strings .  I will be a statistic, my marriage will be a statistic, and my boys will be a statistic.  I have tried, and continue to try, to somehow salvage something.  She continues to tell me there is a .0001 % chance that she will ever forgive me, and it has to be on her terms.  Her terms would mean a) not going to court, b) reducing my parenting to match her schedule, c) pretty much acquiescing to her demands.  I want to keep the marriage, and she knows (and is using it against me).

[GaGrl]

Hmmmm... .you want to keep the marriage. But... .do you want to keep HER? You need to listen to what she is telling you, and believe her. She is telling you what life will be like with her.  Is that the marriage you want to keep, or are you trying to hold onto an idealized version of "marriage"?

[jmrslc]

Hmmmm... .you want to keep the marriage. But... .do you want to keep HER? You need to listen to what she is telling you, and believe her. She is telling you what life will be like with her.  Is that the marriage you want to keep, or are you trying to hold onto an idealized version of "marriage"?

Gagrl, good question.  I think it is more of a combination of things --

a) not wanting to be away from my boys

b) what is/was comfortable

c) not wanting to lose the IDEA of what I thought I had (or could have had).

d)  I am also pretty stubborn in that I don't give up... .

Regarding listening to her and believing her, that is hard for me, as I continue to hope and pray that it will change, but you are bringing up a valid point.  I think it is the idealized version.

[GaGrl]

You sound so much like my DH who spent 33 years married to his UBPD/NPD ex. They actually lived together for 19 or so years of that time, and most of his reasoning for staying was to protect his children. He will admit however that he also hung onto a dream that the ex would "mature" and that there was a strong element of not admitting to what he perceived as "failure."

[momtara]

Will write more when I have more time, but I wanted to say that I am in a similar position.  I would do anything to keep my family together and STBX husband wants me back.  But his nice behavior often morphs into scary behavior and I realize I have to get away.  It is a really sad situation.  Most people would have run long ago, but I guess I am just too romantic.  (Or codependent, or have too low self esteem.)

Someone who wants you to have no overnights with the kids isn't thinking of the kids or you, just herself (unless you are a danger somehow... .)  So it tells you how sick she is.  If she was willing to get help it might be one thing.

[livednlearned]

I will be a statistic, my marriage will be a statistic, and my boys will be a statistic.

I hear you. I've been married twice, so was doubly committed to staying in my marriage. If you asked me 3-4 years ago what my best quality was, I would've said loyalty. Which turns out to be a classic codependent trait    N/BPDx is also high-functioning and people were shocked when the marriage ended. The pain of exposing the lie alone was shattering. Literally. I feel like a rebuilt model.

And there are other statistics we don't hear so much about. Like the probability that kids with BPD parents are more at-risk for substance abuse, and other kinds of delinquent behavior as they get older. Your kids are young, so it's hard to see what's developing right now. The research about kids with BPD mothers (it's not as easy to find research about BPD fathers) is not heartening. By the time they are 6, a lot of the attachment issues are in place. By the time kids are 7, 8, behavioral issues start to manifest. There is no question in my mind that if I stayed, my son would take his own life or develop devastating substance issues when he got older. I paid $1500 to have a psychological assessment done, and he was referred to as "at risk" at age 8. He wanted to kill himself and he hadn't even hit puberty yet.

Sometimes I wonder if it's easier for nons to get through the leaving process when kids are involved because it allows this justifiable or acceptable transference of codependence to the kids. We aren't ready to really heal the codependence and take care of ourselves, but we are ok choosing to protect our kids. It makes it easier to take that first psychological step, that giant leap of faith to choose a healthy life for them, because we often don't value ourselves enough to make that choice for us. Asking myself, What does it mean to raise a healthy child? is the most important question I ever asked. Because to answer it, I had to look at myself, my FOO. I had to understand my own role, my own decisions, my own blind spots, and my own script. You start asking that question, and learn some wise things, and begin to realize your own FOO was missing this and that. Maybe you even realize you had BPD parents.

Either that, or we leave the r/s when we find ourselves put in dangerous situations by raging BPD spouses. That's the brick-hitting-the-head version. Appears to be a fairly effective wake up call with potentially devastating consequences. 

Not saying that leaving is a cakewalk, or that you make the decision to leave and the FOG lifts and all is clear and wonderful. I keep thinking about the hero's journey -- it's like that. You're going to figure out the truth about all this, but you have to leave the ordinary world and enter the special world first. And there will be dark nights of the soul there! That seems to go with the territory. But the hero makes it back home, transformed and rebuilt.

There are no statistics about that, unfortunately. Too bad! How many heroes take the journey, and what percentage of them are better off when they return home?

[jmrslc]

Today was fun... .

I have a prospective new job that would take me away from "her", combined with stbX UBPD/NPD STILL wanting to negotiate outside of court (and by negotiate, I mean give in to exactly what she wants).

--------------

Two phone calls... .first one, she was nasty, belittling, and condescending, she hit the roof (and hung up) when I made an inference that she had any impact on the choices SHE HAS MADE since this all started.

STBX wanted to talk about the prospective job that would get me away from "her".  She started off pleasant, but then stated that I have her offer (I have no such offer, and she refuses to have her L draft one due to the "cost".  I tried to explain the upside and the reasons why getting out of my company (who just laid off 7% of the organization and lost a huge revenue stream) would be good for everyone.  She had an argument for everything, that it would impact her ability to work, etc.

I was continually berated because she had to make choices based on my actions (stating that she had no choice, in her behavior, in the legal battle, etc.). 

She then went on to make some very hurtful comments.  "You put us in this situation, Every choice that I have made is because of something you have done.  One day maybe you will see that.  Maybe with a lot of therapy, someone can help you be the man you should be, maybe.  I don't hold my breath for that though." 

Me: "I Have shared with you what is important to me with respect to the boys.  Do you want me to go over that again or do you feel like you have an understanding of my perspective."

STBX: "Tell me what you want, let's not play mind games, this is very simple"

Me: "I am not playing mind games.  All I want is reasonable overnights with s2.5 and reasonable visitation with s9mo."

STBX: "I am not going to agree to overnights"

Me: "Ok, then I guess we have to let a judge decide.  Do you really want to go to court and spend all the extra money to realize that (me) is entitled to overnights with s2.5

She then goes off about my use of the word entitlement, I simply respond with, I am not a deadbeat dad you are dragging to court to get to pay child support.  I am involved, and I want to be involved.

STBX:  "Entitled, that is the word you are going to use?"

Me: "As their father, I have rights to be active in my kids lives.  I am here, I am trying, I am acting".

Me: "no response"

STBX:  "You know my position on that"

Me: "This is how a negotiation works.  It isn't picking a position and not being willing to budge.  If we both do that, then we will never find middle ground"

Me: "I don't want to spend $20-$30k more in legal fees either."

STBX:  "That Job, if you choose it, will strongly impact what little ability I have to provide income for these children (yeah, right, we had four swing shifts working just fine with me putting them to bed before she reduced her hours to 16/wk)."

Me: "Help me understand"

STBX:  "No, I am probably being recorded right now because you have ulterior motives with everything that you do"

Me: "What happens if I lose my job at XYZ tomorrow?  We just laid of 7% of our workforce and have lost 50% of our main revenue stream"

STBX:  "Are you trying to guilt me?"

Me: "No, I am trying to give you detail, I am trying to help you have the information so you can make an informed decision.  I want you to be involved in the decisions that impact both of our abilities to parent these children"

STBX:  "You know my offer"

Me: "I don't know your offer, you said yourself that you hadn't even shared the whole thing with me."

STBX:  "We will go before a judge, if you get overnights then we will escalate it at that point"

Me: "What do you mean you will escalate it at that point"

STBX:  "I am not going to share any of my lawyers advice with you, that isn't wise"

Me: "Hrmm... .  You can appeal it and drag it out all you want but at the end of the day the boys are the ones suffering"

STBX: "Why are they suffering?  What started this?  Why have we sold our house, lost $10ks"

Me: "Why are we not sitting down as reasonable adults and trying to come to agreements?"

STBX:  "I offered you more than what that mediation paper suggests"

Me: "You picked the lowest common denominator and made an offer"

STBX:  "I am done, contact my attorney unless unless you are going to agree to my offer"

Me: "so you are not willing to negotiate in good faith as you have asked me to do a dozen times?

STBX goes on about what she has put together by way of offers, I respond that I haven't seen any of them.  She says she is not going to pay her attorney to draft anything.

Me: "Actually, my attorney has provided offers"  <click>

She then emails me:

"Please keep all communications not directly related to the boy through attorneys."

She did bring up at one point that my attorney has been forwarding MY LOG ENTRIES to her L.  She quoted some verbatim... .

in the 5/6 stages of grief, I am definitely in ANGER right now... .(at least I recognize it   ).

[ForeverDad]

You should have an expectation that your communications with your lawyer are privileged and confidential.  Some information does need to be shared between lawyers but from here in remote peer support it's hard to say whether your lawyer was too informative.  If the lawyer is new to high conflict cases then maybe L was caught off guard with how much stbEx would overreact.  If that trust is broken then you should (1) review the proposed communication beforehand and approve or (2) ponder again whether you need a more experienced lawyer.

Me: "I am not playing mind games.  All I want is reasonable overnights with s2.5 and reasonable visitation with s9mo."

STBX: "I am not going to agree to overnights"

Me: "Ok, then I guess we have to let a judge decide.  Do you really want to go to court and spend all the extra money to realize that (me) is entitled to overnights with s2.5."

(1)  Don't you want to see your youngest child for extended periods?  What about when you go on vacation, take a long weekend to see the grandparents, etc?

Do you really accept that you'd have to leave your children behind for VACATIONS?  Typical orders allow up to TWO WEEKS for vacations, however a court may limit vacations to one week until the youngest is a little older, not sure.  If you cave on expecting at least  some overnights with all the children, then how will your ex handle a one or two week vacation notice?  That's right, it is not a "request", it's a "notice", as long as a vacation notice fits within the rules and limits of the parenting order, then she can't object to it.  Yes, she can obstruct it but then you can file a motion for Contempt of Court.

(Note to all parents seeking temp orders in high conflict cases:  A temp order generally mentions holidays but may not specifically mention vacations since they're just temporary.  Mine didn't, though it did reference the county guidelines for holidays.  So be sure to get vacation wording in the order or specific on-the-record statement by the judge that you can have standard vacations with the children.  Why?  Our high conflict temp orders typically last a year or two and you don't want the stbEx claiming you can't take vacations with the children as mine did.)

NO judge will deny you at least SOME overnights with your children.  Not unless you are considered substantively neglectful, abusive or dangerous.  (Please don't tell her that, don't give her any ideas to make false allegations!)

So... .STOP defaulting to appeasing her regarding significant parenting time and overnights for the baby.  You are an adult.  Though a man cannot breastfeed a baby, you can hold a bottle whether milk, formula or mother's milk, prepare baby food, change diapers, etc.  Don't let her eviscerate your parenting.

You know what she demands, you know it's not reasonable, you know she won't change her tune.  Go to court, seek at least a standard schedule.  Really though, you ought to ask for at least a little more, knowing the judge may want a way to not grant either of you everything asked for.  (If you ask for standard and ex demands next to nothing, I worry that the judge might wimp out and decide to split the difference.)  Let the judge make a standard, reasonable order.

(2) Why are you still trying to reason with her when you haven't been able to reason with her for months (if not longer) and she has effectively declared you to be nonessential, barely tolerated, worthy of nothing but crumbs, etc?

Sometimes here you'll see us writing about the Three Sentence Rule.  In most cases we can express our needed communication in 3 sentences.  Yes, you have to strip out the pleas, begging, reasoning, etc.  What's left are the basics:  statement of the facts, statement of your boundary or expectation.  Anything more just eggs on the conflict.

"Please keep all communications not directly related to the boy through attorneys."

That is excellent advice considering the current level of conflict and disagreement.  Frankly, that's the only reasonable thing she has said in all you've written, possibly it came from her lawyer?  In any case, you now know that reasoning with her doesn't work.  Some might even say that continuing conversations such as the above are contributing to the high level of tension, not letting it be or reducing it.

[livednlearned]

She sounds very intelligent and high-functioning, which can completely and totally mess with your head.

But all the signs are there. You aren't going to get anything from this person except a knife in the back.

[KateCat]

jmrslc,

The clarity with which your wife describes the role she offers you in any future relationship is kind of unusual for these forums.  Seeing it through a lens like that offered by Joseph Campbell's "hero's journey" myth (as proposed by livednlearned) sure seems fruitful to me.

She's definitely not proposing that Mary Oliver scenario:

"You do not have to walk on your knees

for a hundred miles through the desert, repenting."

(And, anyway, you've already been there and already done that, right?)

But more like a twisted, forced version of the Proclaimers':

"But I would walk 500 miles

And I would walk 500 more

Just to be the man who walked 1000 miles

To fall down at your door"

I hope you can develop your own clarity to match hers. What a tough, unyielding situation. 

[jmrslc]

She sounds very intelligent and high-functioning, which can completely and totally mess with your head.

But all the signs are there. You aren't going to get anything from this person except a knife in the back.

She is extremely high functioning, and it is resulting in some brutal treatment from her.  Her latest are two parallel "tactics";  1) inviting me to things and then uninviting me  2) threats of exposing my poor choices and the affair in highly public forums (one example is our company facebook page, 2400+ person company, in the fastest growing top 50 in our industry, and I am an executive there... .

She told me yesterday (repeated many times) "I am going to tell the whole world once the ink is dry".  She always says it at a whisper and makes grand gestures with her arms when she does it.  My voice recorder doesn't pick it up (I checked). 

I am considering asking for a non-disparaging order (even at temp orders) for the good of the children and to ensure that I can continue to viably provide financially for the family.

She also knows how I react to "public shame".  I don't do well with it, which has been a career driver for me (I have to be the best).  This has been my third greatest source of anxiety aside from the kids & the codependency issues.

You should have an expectation that your communications with your lawyer are privileged and confidential.  Some information does need to be shared between lawyers but from here in remote peer support it's hard to say whether your lawyer was too informative.  If the lawyer is new to high conflict cases then maybe L was caught off guard with how much stbEx would overreact.  If that trust is broken then you should (1) review the proposed communication beforehand and approve or (2) ponder again whether you need a more experienced lawyer.

Me: "I am not playing mind games.  All I want is reasonable overnights with s2.5 and reasonable visitation with s9mo."

STBX: "I am not going to agree to overnights"

Me: "Ok, then I guess we have to let a judge decide.  Do you really want to go to court and spend all the extra money to realize that (me) is entitled to overnights with s2.5."

(1)  Don't you want to see your youngest child for extended periods?  What about when you go on vacation, take a long weekend to see the grandparents, etc?

Do you really accept that you'd have to leave your children behind for VACATIONS?  Typical orders allow up to TWO WEEKS for vacations, however a court may limit vacations to one week until the youngest is a little older, not sure.  If you cave on expecting at least  some overnights with all the children, then how will your ex handle a one or two week vacation notice?  That's right, it is not a "request", it's a "notice", as long as a vacation notice fits within the rules and limits of the parenting order, then she can't object to it.  Yes, she can obstruct it but then you can file a motion for Contempt of Court.

(Note to all parents seeking temp orders in high conflict cases:  A temp order generally mentions holidays but may not specifically mention vacations since they're just temporary.  Mine didn't, though it did reference the county guidelines for holidays.  So be sure to get vacation wording in the order or specific on-the-record statement by the judge that you can have standard vacations with the children.  Why?  Our high conflict temp orders typically last a year or two and you don't want the stbEx claiming you can't take vacations with the children as mine did.)

NO judge will deny you at least SOME overnights with your children.  Not unless you are considered substantively neglectful, abusive or dangerous.  (Please don't tell her that, don't give her any ideas to make false allegations!)

So... .STOP defaulting to appeasing her regarding significant parenting time and overnights for the baby.  You are an adult.  Though a man cannot breastfeed a baby, you can hold a bottle whether milk, formula or mother's milk, prepare baby food, change diapers, etc.  Don't let her eviscerate your parenting.

You know what she demands, you know it's not reasonable, you know she won't change her tune.  Go to court, seek at least a standard schedule.  Really though, you ought to ask for at least a little more, knowing the judge may want a way to not grant either of you everything asked for.  (If you ask for standard and ex demands next to nothing, I worry that the judge might wimp out and decide to split the difference.)  Let the judge make a standard, reasonable order.

(2) Why are you still trying to reason with her when you haven't been able to reason with her for months (if not longer) and she has effectively declared you to be nonessential, barely tolerated, worthy of nothing but crumbs, etc?

Sometimes here you'll see us writing about the Three Sentence Rule.  In most cases we can express our needed communication in 3 sentences.  Yes, you have to strip out the pleas, begging, reasoning, etc.  What's left are the basics:  statement of the facts, statement of your boundary or expectation.  Anything more just eggs on the conflict.

"Please keep all communications not directly related to the boy through attorneys."

That is excellent advice considering the current level of conflict and disagreement.  Frankly, that's the only reasonable thing she has said in all you've written, possibly it came from her lawyer?  In any case, you now know that reasoning with her doesn't work.  Some might even say that continuing conversations such as the above are contributing to the high level of tension, not letting it be or reducing it.

A ton of good information here.  I am going to tell my L today (meeting in 45 minutes) that I would like to ask for two overnights for each since I was caring for them four nights a week previously.

I will be printing this for my discussion with my L.

My T told me that my STBx is going to spend the rest of her life TRYING to make me miserable.  She firmly believes based on the way STBx approaches everything else that she will make it her life's mission to hurt me, ruin me, damage me, discourage me.  It has been quite depressing, to be honest.

[jmrslc]

The clarity with which your wife describes the role she offers you in any future relationship is kind of unusual for these forums.  Seeing it through a lens like that offered by Joseph Campbell's "hero's journey" myth (as proposed by livednlearned) sure seems fruitful to me.

Kate,

What do you mean that the clarity she offers is unusual for these forums?

-J

[KateCat]

I mean that most of the women described here seem to be more passive-aggressive and subtly manipulating than your wife. Her threats are pretty scary, but they are out in the open.

Added: I see that your therapist has noted something like this. Is your T making any suggestions as to how to handle this? Call her bluff? Limit contact? Any other strategies?

I was in a family court hearing once where I heard the commissioner order each party (and the parties' families) not to disparage the other parent or the other parent's families. I don't know how that works out in practice . . . 

[jmrslc]

I mean that most of the women described here seem to be more passive-aggressive and subtly manipulating than your wife. Her threats are pretty scary, but they are out in the open.

Added: I see that your therapist has noted something like this. Is your T making any suggestions as to how to handle this? Call her bluff? Limit contact? Any other strategies?

I was in a family court hearing once where I heard the commissioner order each party (and the parties' families) not to disparage the other parent or the other parent's families. I don't know how that works out in practice . . . 

Re:  Therapist, she says it is the price I have to pay for marrying her (with her disorders), and then wronging her.  He** hath no fury squared... .

She hasn't given me much except to stop reacting, focus on myself and my boys, and get my legal stuff in shape.

My attorney has asked me to put together an arsenal.  I am working on it tonight and tomorrow.  four full page color photos of each of damaged property, the rooms for the boys as I have them setup in my new home, etc.  Consolidated log entries of the last three months, which means I am going to have to re-read (re-live) all of it in the next 18 hours.  Dread... .

[livednlearned]

She told me yesterday (repeated many times) "I am going to tell the whole world once the ink is dry".  She always says it at a whisper and makes grand gestures with her arms when she does it.  My voice recorder doesn't pick it up (I checked). 

Quite honestly, if a woman publicly exposed her stbx or ex husband for having an affair on his company's FB page, I would find her batsh!t crazy. That is what crazy people do.

If I were in your shoes, I would talk to HR. Tell them your wife suffers from a personality disorder, that you are going through a high-conflict divorce, and that she is threatening to publicly humiliate you in your workplace. You won't be the first person to deal with this and they may have some good ideas about how to protect you AND their company. No PR or HR person wants batsh!t crazy and dirty laundry on their public FB page, so telling them in advance is in their interests too.

Ask if you can talk to the person who manages your social media. Ask what the policy is if someone were to do what your ex is threatening to do. I manage social media where I work and if someone put that kind of post up, I would take a screenshot of it and then delete that sucker within 10 seconds of seeing it. Then there would be a conversation with people about whether or not to block that person, or email her directly, etc. If you think this is something your ex is genuinely going to do, get ahead of it first and get leadership on your team.

Also? You don't owe anyone an explanation of whether the affair is true or not. It's not their business. Their business to make sure a crazy person doesn't release the flying monkeys on their company PR sites.

[livednlearned]

My T told me that my STBx is going to spend the rest of her life TRYING to make me miserable.  She firmly believes based on the way STBx approaches everything else that she will make it her life's mission to hurt me, ruin me, damage me, discourage me.  It has been quite depressing, to be honest.

Not sure if this is true for others, but for me, the dread was so much worse at the beginning of my divorce. The anxiety and stress of that first year literally made me vomit. I'm 3 years out and I still feel extremely vigilant, but the dread is barely there. It's like the dread was proportionate to my denial about his illness, if that makes sense. The more I saw how sick and ill he was, the less dread I felt. Now he's just one other problem in my life I need to manage.

A year ago, he had a psychotic episode and came to the (false) conclusion that I had an affair during our marriage. His behavior and thinking was so disordered that his lawyer ending up withdrawing. So even though I didn't have an affair, I might as well have. I still get the same crazy -- he keeps threatening to write a book, tell my son everything blah blah blah. Whatever.

If your wife can't let go of the rage against you, it's going to hurt her in court. That's the weird thing about all this. When they act badly, it works in your favor.

[jmrslc]

She revoked her last settlement offer... .So much for stipulating to the $$ amounts.  Now she wants more money and still no overnights.  Apparently my L has negotiated M/W/F evenings plus Saturday -- no overnights, and a fixed $$ amount (which is more than half of my take home).  My L doesn't think we have enough time to go through the issues in the 1 hour hearing, and that the judge is just going to follow basic guidelines (thinks overnights are up in the air, but that $ will be high).

If I roll the dice, the statutory $$s are almost 25% more money, and potentially no overnights (and less days per week).  I feel like I have to take this.  Court is tomorrow at 9am... .

Rock | Me | Hard Place

[jmrslc]

She revoked her last settlement offer... .So much for stipulating to the $$ amounts.  Now she wants more money and still no overnights.  Apparently my L has negotiated M/W/F evenings plus Saturday -- no overnights, and a fixed $$ amount (which is more than half of my take home).  My L doesn't think we have enough time to go through the issues in the 1 hour hearing, and that the judge is just going to follow basic guidelines (thinks overnights are up in the air, but that $ will be high).

If I roll the dice, the statutory $$s are almost 25% more money, and potentially no overnights (and less days per week).  I feel like I have to take this.  Court is tomorrow at 9am... .

Rock | Me | Hard Place

It gets better.  She signed it, but removed all of the provisions around non-disparagement, etc.  What the temp stipulation speaks to is parenting time (three evenings, 4 hours) and one weekend day.  What worries me is that it says that we agree to vacate the temp orders hearing, and does NOT speak to joint decision making, participating in school or other activities, etc.  I am scared to sign it... .

My L thinks we have enough information and evidence to get a restraining order, and that the restraining order essentially allows us to get EVERYTHING into evidence (which the 1 hour temp orders hearing wouldn't have done).  It also provides the protections against harassment, contacting my employer, manipulation, coercion (all of the domestic violence elements -- essentially). 

We are going to accept the settlement offer without the protection elements that are important to me, and then go get a RO immediately after the judge enters orders.

Here's hoping I am not kicking a hornet's nest.

[GaGrl]

Risky strategy?

[jmrslc]

Risky strategy?

That is how I am feeling .  Time is running out, I am supposed to sign this asap... .

[GaGrl]

So difficult to know! I would say... .Trust your intuition.  It sounds as if you are leaning toward taking your chances in front of the judge. If you got a good temp order from the judge, what would prevent you from still getting the RO provisions?

[Tracy500]

I have just skimmed all of the replies so I'm sorry if what I'm saying has been said.

It sounds like you're operating from a position of FOG - Fear, Obligation and Guilt.  In a healthy relationship, there's none of that. 

There's just love. 

I know that now that I'm in a healthy relationship, but I had to work through it before I could ask my emotionally abusive husband for a divorce. 

One thing that helped me immensely was when someone said, "Children learn what they experience.  Do you want your children to think that THIS is what a healthy relationship looks like?  Do you want them to seek out the same thing for themselves?  If they were married and came to you and asked, 'I'm in a relationship with a BPD person and they're treating me terribly and I'm miserable.  What should I do?'  Would you advise them to stay in the marriage?"

Another thing that helped me a lot was to picture sitting your children down and saying, "Hey kids.  Your mother is treating me horribly and I'm miserable in this relationship, but I'm going to stay for your sakes."  The kids would not want the burden of being the reason that you stayed in such an unhealthy relationship.  It's not fair to burden them with that. 

I have a theory that a happy person does not stray from a marriage.  You were clearly unhappy. 

Please extract yourself from this sick cycle while you still have the chance to show your children what a happy, healthy relationship CAN look like. 

My life partner and I are so happy and his children get to see what a healthy relationship should look like.  Full of love, respect, kindness and consideration.  Isn't THAT what you want your children to seek for themselves when they're older?