Co-parenting with UdBPD/NPD stbx wife

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I just saw this.  This worries me greatly:  you agreeing to no overnights.  If a judge ordered you to have no overnights, that would be different, it would mean there was some reason (abuse, neglect or endangerment) to disallow overnights.  But agreeing to it means you're essentially okay with it and that there might even be an unstated reason for it.

What counsel or legal advice did the experienced lawyer give?  Was the other lawyer okay with that agreement?  I feel you need a second set of legal eyes on this!  If you do end up changing lawyer you don't want the new lawyer to complain about this agreement.

So she amended the agreement?  So you amend it too.  Hmm... .How about you amending the lack of overnights to END when child reaches ONE YEAR OF AGE or whatever age child will be 6 months from now?  (After all, she amended the agreement, so why not you?)

Or even better, add the clause that future orders will not be based upon this first initial agreement?

You need some way to document that you're not okay with lack of overnights for the youngest, at least not for very long.  Otherwise it will be an even harder uphill struggle to be a meaningful parent and father.

[ForeverDad]

I just saw this.  This worries me greatly:  you agreeing to no overnights.  If a judge ordered you to have no overnights, that would be different, it would mean there was some reason (abuse, neglect or endangerment) to disallow overnights.  But agreeing to it means you're essentially okay with it and that there might even be an unstated reason for it.

What counsel or legal advice did the experienced lawyer give?  Was the other lawyer okay with that agreement?  I feel you need a second set of legal eyes on this!  If you do end up changing lawyer you don't want the new lawyer to complain about this agreement.

So she amended the agreement?  So you amend it too.  Hmm... .How about you amending the lack of overnights to END when child reaches ONE YEAR OF AGE or whatever age child will be 6 months from now?  (After all, she amended the agreement, so why not you?)

Or even better, add the clause that future orders will not be based upon this first initial agreement?

You need some way to document that you're not okay with lack of overnights for the youngest, at least not for very long.  Otherwise it will be an even harder uphill struggle to be a meaningful parent and father.

[livednlearned]

I just saw this.  This worries me greatly:  you agreeing to no overnights.  If a judge ordered you to have no overnights, that would be different, it would mean there was some reason (abuse, neglect or endangerment) to disallow overnights.  But agreeing to it means you're essentially okay with it and that there might even be an unstated reason for it.

What counsel or legal advice did the experienced lawyer give?  Was the other lawyer okay with that agreement?  I feel you need a second set of legal eyes on this!  If you do end up changing lawyer you don't want the new lawyer to complain about this agreement.

So she amended the agreement?  So you amend it too.  Hmm... .How about you amending the lack of overnights to END when child reaches ONE YEAR OF AGE or whatever age child will be 6 months from now?  (After all, she amended the agreement, so why not you?)

Or even better, add the clause that future orders will not be based upon this first initial agreement?

You need some way to document that you're not okay with lack of overnights for the youngest, at least not for very long.  Otherwise it will be an even harder uphill struggle to be a meaningful parent and father.

Ditto to what FD said!

You are supposed to sign this ASAP. Says who? Is there a court deadline?

I agree with FD, let the judge decide that there will be no overnights, not you. You are fully capable of having your kids overnight. Maybe your lawyer is hedging, and maybe she is right. But lawyers want to settle. They pride themselves on settling. So it's in their interest to get you to agree to something you don't want! Get a second opinion before you sign. Or see if you can include the amendments that FD suggested.

[livednlearned]

I can't figure out why this marriage failing is absolutely devastating me.  I feel like I need to salvage it at all costs (and trust me, I am considering taking much less than I should to try and salvage it).

jmrsic, I'm going to be super blunt.

A lot of people like us sabotage ourselves during the divorce process. You have all the classic signs of someone sabotaging himself. Your thinking isn't clear -- taking much less during the divorce in order to salvage your marriage is sabotage thinking. You cannot absolve yourself for the problems in your marriage during a divorce. Right now, your job is to get the best temporary (permanent) order in place you possibly can, so you can have a loving, reasonable relationship with your kids. Totally separate issue.

Dealing with the feelings you have about your marriage = therapy

Fighting for a relationship with your kids = court

Separate issues. Don't confuse them.

we had four swing shifts working just fine with me putting them to bed before she reduced her hours to 16/wk).

You have taken care of your kids overnight while she's working swing shifts? And she let you? And they were even younger than they are now?

Your lawyer works for you! She should be taking this information and nailing it for you.

[ForeverDad]

Dealing with the feelings you have about your marriage = therapy

Fighting for a relationship with your kids = court

Separate issues. Don't confuse them.

I agree 200%!

In a divorce a judge is "supposed" to take the best interests of the children as the priority.  Whether they really do that or not has been a matter of debate for decades.  Some judges are great and some are terrible but most are probably okay.  But if you make an agreement that is binding for who knows how long, then most judges will accept it as is even if they have their own reservations about the wisdom of the agreement's terms.

What YOU need to keep in mind is:

• NOT the failed relationship



• NOT on the who has the most fault in the relationship's failure



• NOT whether the relationship just maybe can be rescued by sacrifices



• NOT whether giving up parenting time & overnights might appease your ex slightly



• BUT... .on what is the reasonable best for the children

Is it best for the children to have very little parenting time with you?

Is it best for your youngest to have no overnights with you until who knows when?

Focus on those questions.  Ponder that.  Please.

Apparently your lawyer has a strategy to appease now and then turn around and reopen separately to address the issues more extensively.  I just have a concern that even if her deep issues and how they affect her parenting are later demonstrated more fully to the court that the court might say, "... .but since Mr J settled already for minimal time and no overnights then he's already expressed what he is okay with and therefore... ."  We're peer support here, we're not lawyers and probably most of us aren't even in your state, so we're not the legal experts on your options.  We're just expressing our concerns based on the experiences of ourselves and many others here.

[jmrslc]

Dealing with the feelings you have about your marriage = therapy

Fighting for a relationship with your kids = court

Separate issues. Don't confuse them.

I agree 200%!

In a divorce a judge is "supposed" to take the best interests of the children as the priority.  Whether they really do that or not has been a matter of debate for decades.  Some judges are great and some are terrible but most are probably okay.  But if you make an agreement that is binding for who knows how long, then most judges will accept it as is even if they have their own reservations about the wisdom of the agreement's terms.

What YOU need to keep in mind is:

• NOT the failed relationship



• NOT on the who has the most fault in the relationship's failure



• NOT whether the relationship just maybe can be rescued by sacrifices



• NOT whether giving up parenting time & overnights might appease your ex slightly



• BUT... .on what is the reasonable best for the children

Is it best for the children to have very little parenting time with you?

Is it best for your youngest to have no overnights with you until who knows when?

Focus on those questions.  Ponder that.  Please.

Apparently your lawyer has a strategy to appease now and then turn around and reopen separately to address the issues more extensively.  I just have a concern that even if her deep issues and how they affect her parenting are later demonstrated more fully to the court that the court might say, "... .but since Mr J settled already for minimal time and no overnights then he's already expressed what he is okay with and therefore... ."  We're peer support here, we're not lawyers and probably most of us aren't even in your state, so we're not the legal experts on your options.  We're just expressing our concerns based on the experiences of ourselves and many others here.

Today has sucked.  I didn't get a chance to read replies until court, and signed the temp orders agreement.  They also pushed perm hearing to next calendar year, so 12-24 months of alimony due to Jan2014 law.

Oh, the judge rejected the protection order.  If STBX finds that out, her sense of entitlement will only be bolstered.  I guess I followed my L, should have paid more attention to my gut, and am stuck with this temp agreement until late Jan.  So much for a quick reset.

I also should have listened here more, I think... .  I am beyond down this afternoon... .

VERY discouraged, feeling like I have been ridden over roughshod.

[ForeverDad]

How you're feeling is somewhat par for the course.  I felt terrible my first two plus years, my ex was in control and I was made to feel like a sixth finger, third arm, whatever example you can choose to denote an appendage that was tolerated but not wanted.  All the would've & could've feelings, yeah, I remember that too.  What's done is done, now focus on what's next.  Do you have wiggle room to change and improve the order at the next hearing.

Paying short term alimony is not the big issue, your parenting is.  Alimony is only a year or two, being a parent is forever and parenting a child is for the next two decades.

[jmrslc]

How you're feeling is somewhat par for the course.  I felt terrible my first two plus years, my ex was in control and I was made to feel like a sixth finger, third arm, whatever example you can choose to denote an appendage that was tolerated but not wanted.  All the would've & could've feelings, yeah, I remember that too.  What's done is done, now focus on what's next.  Do you have wiggle room to change and improve the order at the next hearing.

Paying short term alimony is not the big issue, your parenting is.  Alimony is only a year or two, being a parent is forever and parenting a child is for the next two decades.

Thanks FD.  I needed some positive reassurance, and to know that these feelings are normal (a good "settlement" is where neither party feels like they won - although she might in this case).  This stipulation is just that (STBX's attorney messed up, she listed it as a temporary stipulation and the judge even acknowledged it and signed it as such).  While we can't request another hearing until permanent orders, there is always room for negotiation of everything in the interim.

With everything I felt went poorly today, I spent some time trying to look for the positives.

These are the wins I am counting (thus far):

- I am getting 3 work nights a week with my boys (including the 9mo old)

- I am getting one full weekend day (10 hours) with my boys

- 22 waking hours (whether they sleep here or not) is quite a bit.  It is more than half of my work evenings, and one weekend day each week.  If I make it really quality time (schedule activities, etc.), those hours may mean a LOT more than picking him up at daycare at 5pm and returning him to her on my way into the office the next morning (or some variation thereof).

- I am paying less than the "worst case" number for alimony... .  If they used the statutory number, it would have been much higher

- I didn't have to get on the stand and testify against her <-- realizing this could actually be a HUGE win.  Whatever I might have said (true or not) would have been perceived by her negatively... .

- I signed "her agreement", so she is getting what she wants.  While it may not improve things, at least it isn't making things worse... .

- I know what my schedule with the boys looks like for the next 3.5 months.  No more "surprise!"  This enables me to start scheduling business dinners, exec functions etc. that I have been neglecting since early July when things "blew up".

- While we didn't get the "quick reset" on permanent orders, it gives me plenty of time to find a new attorney should I choose to.

- With maintenance, I have a BIG tax deduction coming my way (off the top end of my tax bracket, which is HUGE for me).

With long-term maintenance, the income percentages become much closer (if not neck and neck), so they allocation of attorney fees and debt may be equitable.  With the quick reset and no long-term maintenance, I would have been stuck with my percentage of the debt & attorney fees.  Calculating that out, it offsets probably a third of the overall maintenance I will be paying.  Count in the tax write-off and that is another third.  It isn't nearly as bad when I look at it that way.

I am going to spend some time really ratcheting down my budget, figuring out how I am going to live on what they are leaving me with (really lucky I sold my other house so quickly -- REALLY lucky).

I am also going to spend some time REALLY weighing in, listing factors, scoring them, weighting them, and making a quantifiable decision to see if it matches my gut (my gut has been changing back and forth, but keeps going back to finding a new L).

My biggest issue now is how to ensure she doesn't mess with my employment.  If she were to go public about the affair, that could really hurt me.  I hope she doesn't do it one day when she is ticked to "get back at me", and that she truly realizes the "cash cow" she has for the next couple of years.  Since I couldn't get the protection order (let's face it, she could still have DONE it then, it would have just had big consequences), I need to figure out how to mitigate that risk (e.g. begin pre-messaging to appropriate folks, or heck -- maybe I start dating her just to make sure if it DOES come out, people already know).  In reality, I need some alone time, but this is the one last thing that is keeping me awake at night.

[jmrslc]

So yesterday she invites me to go shoe shopping with the kids (oldest soccer was cancelled, I had texted that I would like to see them).  We do lunch after.  She insists on going dutch.  She told me she loves me still (but made a couple of mean comments too.

She has been much more civil since court.  I guess my settling MAY have helped.  Not sure.

Much more communication initiated by her in the last day or so.

[jmrslc]

Sunday was uneventful.  Monday went well.  She invited me over to do some Halloween crafts with her and the boys and to eat dinner with them.  It was supposed to be my parenting time, but I figured it was good for the boys for us to do things together if we can do so without fighting.  She proposed doing it during her parenting time on Tuesday, but I had a work conflict.

Fast forward to yesterday, she FLIP FLOPPED 180 degrees.  She begins emailing me about disclosing the affair at work, citing specific coworkers' names (and their spouses names for the ones she met at a company event).  I call her and express that I felt like we had been co-parenting the boys well for a couple of days, and I would like to continue to keep it positive.  She goes off about how she wants to make sure everyone at my job knows "what I did", that if I lose my job it is because of my choice (not because she chose to air it publically), and that she doesn't care if it impacts her monetarily... .

I spoke with my attorney, and I am documenting the continued threats.  I have lost count of how many times she has made this threat.  I shouldn't be caught off guard with her "flip flopping", but it did just that -- catch me off guard.

<sigh>

Any other thoughts or suggestions for handling this (both on the preventing impact or communication with my employer and in dealing with her flip flopping) would be greatly appreciated... .

-J

[ForeverDad]

You've recording her threats, right?  It may not be useful in most scenarios but at least if she later denies having made such threats then you'd have proof otherwise, whether it can be used or not.

Another thought... .she is fixated on this.  You've already discussed this topic with her, is there any advantage to rehashing this with her over and over?  There is no point to apologizing over and over ad nauseum, at that point it gets enabling.

This is what is called negative engagement.  It serves no useful purpose and enables the complaint to be kept alive.

Remember that in any written communications it should remain "alleged" and/or left vague.  That ought to reduce the risk of it blowing up in other ways.

[livednlearned]

Any other thoughts or suggestions for handling this (both on the preventing impact or communication with my employer and in dealing with her flip flopping) would be greatly appreciated... .

The only thing you can handle is you! That's it. You stop engaging. You don't go to her house. You communicate by email. No phone. No house visits. Jmrslc handles jmrslc.

Every time you think about engaging with her, and choose not to, let yourself feel all those feelings you've boxed up inside you, the wretchedness, the loneliness, the searing pain. Feel the full force of it. Let go! It will be ok -- they are feelings that have to be felt so you can let the others one out, the good ones. Those are the ones that will help you handle this. Those are the feelings that will start taking care of you.

This thing you're doing with her, it's going to end badly. If your kids were a little bit older, this would confuse the hell out of them.

[jmrslc]

This thing you're doing with her, it's going to end badly. If your kids were a little bit older, this would confuse the hell out of them.

This scares me .  I don't know what else I can do to minimize the impact on my boys.

She called me last night.  I answered (I am a glutton for punishment, apparently).  She went off, I pretty much let her go.  She called me this morning to thank me for talking with her... .  She "doesn't think she can forgive me," but "sometimes she wants to."

She wants to hurt the other woman.  She is actively looking for ways to hurt her.  I am staying out of it, but am concerned about backlash at work.

This thing is all-consuming.  I don't know how to get to a point where it isn't chewing up all of mental cycles... .

[livednlearned]

This thing is all-consuming.  I don't know how to get to a point where it isn't chewing up all of mental cycles... .

Can you forgive yourself? Really, truly forgive yourself? Not just, "Ok, jmrslc, you made a mistake, she sorta created the conditions for an affair to happen, that wasn't cool, but it happened and now it's over, shoulda made different choices" etc., but deep forgiveness? Like looking inside at you, what you need, what you deserve, what it means to care for and love yourself?

I think that's the threshold. That's when the churn stops. Loving yourself and forgiving yourself are really closely tied together. Loving yourself because of what you did, loving yourself in spite of what you did, loving yourself married or divorced, affair or no, lonely or not.

I don't know how anyone can get through the churn while someone uses you as a punching bag, especially a pwBPD. That's the whole deal, to keep you on the hook with fear, obligation, and guilt. You having an affair is paydirt for someone who wants to hold you emotionally hostage. She makes you feel bad, then she feels better. If she senses you feel good, she winds you up for another round of guilt. I'm a survivor of that behavior too -- and I didn't have an affair. But I had to constantly fill N/BPDx's bottomless bucket. He was so sure I was having an affair, or wanted to have an affair, or would one day have an affair, or someone wanted to have an affair with me.    That stuff is a bottomless bucket.

There must be something familiar to you about this thing you are doing with her. Is this all you know? You are not a glutton for punishment, you are following a script. There are other scripts out there, ones where you love yourself, forgive yourself, are cherished, where you have boundaries, where someone loves you and forgives you for being human. That's why doing this in front of your kids is so sad, why it will end badly. You are teaching them that this is love. One day you will hear your children say the words your ex says to you, but they will direct it toward you. Or they will role play it with dolls, or other kids. Now you have a chance to teach them something so much more powerful. Validate who they are. Validate how they feel. Show them what healthy love looks like. Sincen you can't do it with your ex, then show them what healthy love looks like in yourself, and with them.

The best thing you can do for your kids is to role model someone who loves himself. Who has boundaries.

And be gentle with yourself as you figure this stuff out. It's a process. The early stages of divorce are about treading water, keeping your head above water. 

[jmrslc]

This thing is all-consuming.  I don't know how to get to a point where it isn't chewing up all of mental cycles... .

Can you forgive yourself? Really, truly forgive yourself? Not just, "Ok, jmrslc, you made a mistake, she sorta created the conditions for an affair to happen, that wasn't cool, but it happened and now it's over, shoulda made different choices" etc., but deep forgiveness? Like looking inside at you, what you need, what you deserve, what it means to care for and love yourself?

I think that's the threshold. That's when the churn stops. Loving yourself and forgiving yourself are really closely tied together. Loving yourself because of what you did, loving yourself in spite of what you did, loving yourself married or divorced, affair or no, lonely or not.

I don't know how anyone can get through the churn while someone uses you as a punching bag, especially a pwBPD. That's the whole deal, to keep you on the hook with fear, obligation, and guilt. You having an affair is paydirt for someone who wants to hold you emotionally hostage. She makes you feel bad, then she feels better. If she senses you feel good, she winds you up for another round of guilt. I'm a survivor of that behavior too -- and I didn't have an affair. But I had to constantly fill N/BPDx's bottomless bucket. He was so sure I was having an affair, or wanted to have an affair, or would one day have an affair, or someone wanted to have an affair with me.    That stuff is a bottomless bucket.

There must be something familiar to you about this thing you are doing with her. Is this all you know? You are not a glutton for punishment, you are following a script. There are other scripts out there, ones where you love yourself, forgive yourself, are cherished, where you have boundaries, where someone loves you and forgives you for being human. That's why doing this in front of your kids is so sad, why it will end badly. You are teaching them that this is love. One day you will hear your children say the words your ex says to you, but they will direct it toward you. Or they will role play it with dolls, or other kids. Now you have a chance to teach them something so much more powerful. Validate who they are. Validate how they feel. Show them what healthy love looks like. Sincen you can't do it with your ex, then show them what healthy love looks like in yourself, and with them.

The best thing you can do for your kids is to role model someone who loves himself. Who has boundaries.

And be gentle with yourself as you figure this stuff out. It's a process. The early stages of divorce are about treading water, keeping your head above water. 

I spent 10 years with a dBPDw.  We had quite the script, and I stayed and played my part for a very long time.  I don't know why this is all I know, or why I continue these patterns.

I don't know if I can really forgive myself.  Since I am constantly looking OUTSIDE for validation, I am setting myself up for a very long and painful process where I never heal unless I can learn to start generating the right kinds of self-love, self-validation, setting boundaries, etc.  I feel very helpless in this area, as I have been going to counseling since adolescence trying to do those very things.  I never seem to make progress regardless of the therapists, the books I read, the support groups, etc.  It is eating me from the inside out.

Her parents still model this dysfunctional relationship decades later.  It is what she knows.  Now that I have wronged her, it is her "life's mission" to make sure I end up old, alone, unhappy, and bitter (her words).  Sure, she shouldn't have that level of control over my emotions, but I am ultra-sensitive to what others think, feel, and say around me. 

A part of me wishes I had a big undo button so I could go back to the (not very happy) marriage we had and just continue the status quo.  Obviously, that isn't possible now.

I did well this morning.  She called me, I didn't answer the phone.  I simply texted back "how are the boys?"

I am exhausted.  This is wearing me out physically, emotionally, and otherwise.  I don't know what to do except just get up, shower, go to work, come home and try and distract myself with TV or work.  If I have my boys, I try and engage with them and keep them busy.  I don't know if I can do the things you talk about in order for them to feel validated, know how to love themselves, etc.  It scares the living daylight out of me.  Knowing what I know now, she and I had no business having kids.  We had too many issues, and kids just up'ed the anti.

[jmrslc]

Attorneys... .<sigh>

I have spoken with a dozen or so.  Monetarily speaking, I chose the wrong line of work.

I do think my attorney is a bit passive, and that she lacks understanding of N/BPD.

That having been said, with temp orders in place, the range of parenting time isn't extremely large at this point.  What I have is probably a decent baseline.  While I want overnights, I am getting more days than is recommended in the state guideline.   In talking with the other attorneys, the reoccurring theme has been getting the child family investigator involved to put together the progressive parenting plan (so the judge isn't doing it on the fly).  That set my ex off, who then threatened (again) to take the kids out of state.  Everyone involved feels that is an extremely unlikely outcome as the courts don't want to split the parents and would rather see frequent exchanges (moving 1500 miles away would make that difficult).

I am not sure what the [literally] $10-20k additional money I would have to spend to get a new attorney up to speed and then litigate the permanent orders hearing is going to buy me.

Please feel free to comment if I am being naive, stupid, or otherwise.

My biggest gripe with my attorney is that I keep finding out about things (discussions, negotiations, demands, etc.) from my stbUN/BPDexw.  My Attorney needs to be doing a better job of keeping me in the loop.

I am already at ~$25k+ in legal debt, and I suspect she is somewhere in the same ballpark.  I literally called one of the most expensive attorneys in the state (leads several of the state legal boards and societies, close to $500/hr).  I didn't feel like I was going to get that much of a different outcome.  The only one I MIGHT consider swapping to would be the one who is familiar with "Splitting" (the book) and with ":)ivorce Poison".  He actually recommended splitting to me (after I had read about it on this forum). 

The only other gripe I have is that we set for a four hour (half day) permanent orders hearing.  I am willing to bet money (how about another four hours worth of 2x attorney's time) that this requires a full day... .

[livednlearned]

In talking with the other attorneys, the reoccurring theme has been getting the child family investigator involved to put together the progressive parenting plan (so the judge isn't doing it on the fly).  That set my ex off, who then threatened (again) to take the kids out of state.  Everyone involved feels that is an extremely unlikely outcome as the courts don't want to split the parents and would rather see frequent exchanges (moving 1500 miles away would make that difficult).

Not sure about where you live, but in my state, once you've filed for custody, moving out of state might as well be nearly impossible if one parent disagrees. I was offered a job across the country and looked into it. There are 10 criteria for allowing a parent to move with the kids. Even if I met 9 or 10 of the criteria, it could still take 9 months. Partly because of the slow court calendar. And that doesn't even take into account if N/BPDx fought me every step of the way. I know other people here have spouses who move with the kids, so maybe my state is extra difficult. I don't know.

As for switching attorneys and going into greater debt... .that's a hard decision. Because you may have some tendencies to self-sabotage yourself, it might be even more important to get an attorney who has a very clear goal and strategy for your case. That might matter more than anything. If you were very clearly done with your marriage and psychologically able to take care of yourself, having a passive lawyer might not be as much of a handicap. I became a much more active client with way more backbone after I was out of the marriage for a year. But those early days, I needed a strong L. She prevented me from hurting myself financially. I tried to do what a lot of us here do -- give him a better financial deal because I felt guilty.

My lawyer wouldn't let me. Now I'm glad! I've needed that money to keep paying her to fight N/BPDx.  

[ForeverDad]

Permanent orders?  So soon?  Yikes!

The typical START of a case is TEMPORARY orders.  The typical END of a case is the FINAL order.  Did I miss something?  Aren't you just starting your case, have you even been in front of a judge yet?  Any psych evaluations?  Parenting evaluation?  Custody Evaluation?

Why is it that in temporary orders you don't have overnights?  Was it a judge's decision (not willing to change the current situation) or a lousy 'deal' or settlement (since that was all ex was allowing)?

Are you trying to make deals?  Too often you can't 'negotiate' with someone who isn't reasonable and can't/won't listen to reason.  In that case you have to make sure the obstruction is revealed in parenting and custody evaluations.  And those take time.

I've said this often.  The only basis the court will block overnights is: (1) abuse, (2) neglect, (3) endangerment, (4) temporarily while investigating claims of abuse, neglect or endangerment, or (5) the parent being obstructed doesn't object.  Which number are you?  You will end up with no overnights if you don't stand up for yourself.

If it's about the expense of paying lawyers now, sorry, will you look back 5, 10, 15 years from now and think your savings now were in your best interests or your children's best interests?  Does that lawyer who recommends Splitting suggest permanent orders now, bypassing comprehensive evaluations?

[ForeverDad]

If I may, I borrowed this post from yesterday, another father whose parenting is being obstructed... .his ex was demanding only conditional visits supervised by her.  Note how that judge recognized the current situation but was determined to move the parenting up closer to the usual parenting schedules.  (My emphasis)

we had everything worked out but the length of visitation, my ex was only willing to give me 1 hr unsupervised every other mon and sat and 1hr unsupervised every wed. the judge said that's not enough time right away and set a graduated process for the first 5 visits I get every wed, every other sat and every other sun for 1 hr unsupervised. the sat and sun aren't together they alternate so I get 1 weekend day a week, meaning I get this sun then next weekend I get sat. after 5 visits Its moved to 3 hrs per visit on the weekend but the wed is staying at 1 hr.

positives- visitation away from my ex, the judge wants to increase my time beyond 3 hr visits by the final hearing

negatives- very limited time now with my daughter, the judge wants me to work with the mother and be understanding to the fact that my daughter is so young, he gave her a loophole that if my daughter is sick or not feeding well the day of visitation she can say today is not a good day for visitation but if she abuses that she will be in trouble and I get more time quicker.



My ex tried get yelled at by this judge twice once for talking back about the length of visitation the 2nd time she asked about me feeding her and the judge said get a pump she continued to argue about pumping and he yelled "do you want to go to jail! he is seeing his daughter!" at that point her lawyer told her to be quiet.

at the final hearing I will go for full weekends and longer weekday visits. I guess the purpose is to show the court that my daughter has adjusted to the visitation away from the mother, so that gives me 2 months to do that.

I think its a small step forward but I wish I got longer visitation with her.

Thanks everyone for the support and advice it helps , I would like to give more support to people on these boards but I am so new to this.

His last comment is one we all have experienced... ."I think its a small step forward but I wish I got longer visitation with her."

The point here is that if it was left up to his ex or deals with his ex then he would not have gotten anything more than restricted token time.  But the judge looked forward and is phasing in more time.  Mother was opposed and so the judge conceded that concern by phasing in the longer visits.  But the judge was determined to get the visitation to a more normal level.

Sadly, we generally get far better treatment from a judge, a stranger, than from our former loved one.

In talking with the other attorneys, the reoccurring theme has been getting the child family investigator involved to put together the progressive parenting plan (so the judge isn't doing it on the fly).  That set my ex off, who then threatened (again) to take the kids out of state.  Everyone involved feels that is an extremely unlikely outcome as the courts don't want to split the parents and would rather see frequent exchanges (moving 1500 miles away would make that difficult).

Of course she objected, she knows it would benefit you, not her.  You NEED a child family investigator.  If you get a permanent order before doing that, then you wouldn't have that information to present to the court for a better outcome.

Her threats may sound horrible now, but the court will win, if you let it do its thing.

[trappeddad]

I think that pwBPD do have trouble in truly forgiving. 

exactly.    I said something I regretted and apologized.    my apology meant nothing.   she kept bringing up the comment I regretted over and over and over when she raged.    there was no forgiving.

[jmrslc]

Permanent orders?  So soon?  Yikes!

The typical START of a case is TEMPORARY orders.  The typical END of a case is the FINAL order.  Did I miss something?  Aren't you just starting your case, have you even been in front of a judge yet?  Any psych evaluations?  Parenting evaluation?  Custody Evaluation?

Why is it that in temporary orders you don't have overnights?  Was it a judge's decision (not willing to change the current situation) or a lousy 'deal' or settlement (since that was all ex was allowing)?

Are you trying to make deals?  Too often you can't 'negotiate' with someone who isn't reasonable and can't/won't listen to reason.  In that case you have to make sure the obstruction is revealed in parenting and custody evaluations.  And those take time.

I've said this often.  The only basis the court will block overnights is: (1) abuse, (2) neglect, (3) endangerment, (4) temporarily while investigating claims of abuse, neglect or endangerment, or (5) the parent being obstructed doesn't object.  Which number are you?  You will end up with no overnights if you don't stand up for yourself.

If it's about the expense of paying lawyers now, sorry, will you look back 5, 10, 15 years from now and think your savings now were in your best interests or your children's best interests?  Does that lawyer who recommends Splitting suggest permanent orders now, bypassing comprehensive evaluations?

FD -

We happen to live in the most expeditious county in this state.  My attorney was actually surprised that perm orders were set for January, as she thought we would be set for Nov/Dec based on the court's docket.  She has seen entire cases finish (from file to perm orders) finish before the mandatory 90-day waiting period for the divorce decree to be signed.  This without settlements... .

Temporary orders hearing was a few weeks ago.  I agreed to no overnights (at the recommendation of my attorney) but in exchange for a "quick reset" and more "awake" time (I got another day).  I get them Mon/Wen/Fri after work until bedtime, and then again almost all day on Sundays.  I have been leaving work at 3:30 so I get at least ~4 hours a night with them M/W/F.  That is more than half of my awake time that I am not working (setting aside the overnight element).  My attorney continued to stress that I shouldn't worry about this setting some sort of precedence.  I am getting conflicting information, but other attorneys are telling me that I may have just set the baseline for which the progressive parenting will begin.

Why did I settle? 

A) more "awake" time with my boys was a compromise I was willing to make at the time (not knowing the consequences).  Since we had a signed stipulation (but only the night before), we appeared before the judge, he read it, and vacated the hearing. It shows that the boys can be away from her at length, and I have been putting them in their pajamas and doing their bedtime ritual before returning them to her.  She also has stopped sending milk, so I just supplement with formula.

B) I felt like NOT getting up on the stand and talking about everything bad/horrific she has done would somehow help me in the long run.  She still believes that all of her negative behaviors were 100% MY fault due to the affair (she said as much yesterday, flabbergasted that I couldn't see it).  Sure, I would have been right and justified to get up there and talk about it, but it would have set her off. 

C)  She has been throwing me breadcrumbs (still), and I respond.  I have been invited to do additional things, and I want to keep getting that additional time. 

D) I {STUPIDLY} have some ill conceived notion that she and I might reconcile.  I continue to hear at least once a week that she still loves me, but that she could never be with me (physically or otherwise), that she deserves someone who wouldn't have done what I did, and that my choices "must be the most horrific affair that has ever happened."  When she tells the horror story, I cringe.  She is extremely intelligent, and has concocted quite a story & backdrop.  Every time I get a breadcrumb, or hear her say she still loves me, I lose any/all resolve and begin to think about what I can do to get her back ;/.  What was the quote I read somewhere on here?  "I guess you haven't suffered enough yet... ."

There have been no Psych evals, family, parenting, or other evaluations.  I am trying to get a child and family investigator involved (we are filing that motion this week), and that set her off.

As for which number I am, she claims #2 (I had the other woman over after kids went to bed, had long phone calls on blue-tooth while caring for the kids).  None of the attorneys I have spoken with are worried about either of those.  In reality, I am probably more of #5, in that I need to stand up for myself. 

I was recently introduced to an attorney (I know their case well, I was the one who printed the full-page photos documenting abuse for the W -- long story).  She was the opposing L and he got 5 overnights every two weeks with a ~3yo.  He is #1 and #2 with pictures AND child family investigator reports stating it. I have been considering hiring her.  She is reasonably priced, aggressive, and won't let me "settle".  The fact that she represented this other guy (I will reserve further judgement but mention my severe disdain for him), and he got that positive of an outcome (granted the W was more like me -- passive, and they SETTLED) tells me she isn't going to let me cave.

I spent 90 minutes with her on the phone, and she pretty much made it clear that she doesn't mess around.  She tries to work with the other attorney if possible, then just pursues things aggressively.  It is a bit goofy for the judges in my county as they rotate in from another district (small county).  She doesn't know this judge, and that is the one thing that worries her.  She already knows the connections and people involved, and isn't concerned about a conflict of interest.

I am too nice to fire my own attorney -- that is my current dilemma... .  I have been thinking about it daily, and keep convincing myself that the outcome can't really swing that far from where it is now.  I am not likely to get LESS parenting time,  I am unlikely to pay substantially MORE than we both already agreed to (especially since we are way outside of any of the bracketed formulas here).

I am not sure how I can have such a spine in business and be so weak on the personal front.  My T and I have been discussing that lately... .

[ForeverDad]

I was unable to have frequent exchanges with my ex, she used the exchanges, generally in the sheriff's lobby, as a way to make allegations.  That's why I pushed for exchanges at school or daycare.  Daycare was expensive but well worth the distance.

Back in our early years, when I picked up our then-preschooler, he would come running to me.  When I brought him back he would often be crying and refuse to go to her or stay with her as I left.  Her slanted question?  "What did you do to him?"

I feel that frequent exchanges when the younger children are considered fine but in time you'll need to reduce exchanges in years to come.  You'll want weekends that are yours and yours alone, no exchanges with the other parent splitting the weekend, children are with a parent all weekend for whatever activities the parent has planned.

If they rush the divorce, I have heard of some courts here that grant a divorce even before settling the custody, is that what your court does, do they grant divorce but leave the custody issue open longer to allow time for a parenting investigation or custody evaluation?

My first attorney was from out of the county and didn't want to keep me, she recommended a local lawyer she had faced in court before, as Bill Eddy describes in Splitting, she said he was a "problem solver".  Later, when I thought the case was going too slow, I contemplated changing attorneys.  However I couldn't afford the one recommended, so I stayed with mine.  I've had him for over 7 years.  Why thoughts?  Yes, we have a normal reluctance to change from the current choices, but if you believe you would be better represented and more likely to reach your goals with a different lawyer, then politely change.  Remember, for them it's a job, for you it's your Life as a Parent.  Big difference there.  A good lawyer won't take it personally if you decide you need to change to a different lawyer more appropriate for your needs.  Like divorce, choosing lawyers should not be mostly businesslike, not based upon emotions and friendships.

There have been no Psych evals, family, parenting, or other evaluations.  I am trying to get a child and family investigator involved (we are filing that motion this week), and that set her off.

Yes, get a child and family investigator involved.  As for your spouse, anything can set her off, literally anything and especially anything she feels isn't in her favor.  Accept that and do what you need to do.

[jmrslc]

Back in our early years, when I picked up our then-preschooler, he would come running to me.  When I brought him back he would often be crying and refuse to go to her or stay with her as I left.  Her slanted question?  "What did you do to him?"

I already get this, regularly.  It is also "what did you feed him" (he has food allergies), WOW you didn't put on sunscreen, and a plethora of other things.  I could put him in a bubble and she would find something to say I did wrong.

She has a new favorite phrase.  It has an inferred meaning that no one would get unless I explain it.  She just keeps saying "I wish I had a million dollars."  She has my son saying it.  It stemmed from her stating repeatedly ~2 months ago that she wished I would just shoot myself since I have well over $1M in life insurance (well beyond incontestability phase -- meaning past the suicide clauses).  She says it often, in front of others, and it sounds innocent enough (who wouldn't want a million dollars -- right?).  What she is actually saying is "just pull the %^#x trigger already."

I smoked a cigarette tonight.  Since no one here knows me, they wouldn't even understand. 

a) I have ridiculous allergies (shots 4-6 times a week)

b) I am a long distance runner (or was)

c) I can't stand the smell (I had to throw my clothes into the wash and shower afterwards).

-- NO offense intended to anyone who smokes -- Just trying to portray how poorly I am feeling right now as it relates to my situation, frame of mind, etc.

I am feeling beyond irreparably broken; emotionally, mind, spirit, situation, all of the above.  I go back and see the MD who writes for my antidepressant this week.  I think it is time to tell him that this one just isn't working.  We have already doubled the dose, and it has had plenty of time... .

I will see what my L comes back with tomorrow, but I think it is time.

I went through all of my domains and websites tonight and changed ALL index files to blank headers & content.  No more family albums, blogs, links, stories, etc.  It was a "cleansing" of sorts.  I still own the domain names (even the one of her name and mine concatenated).  I will keep my sons' as they may want them one day -- who knows.

In a bit of a dark place tonight

As to your comment about parenting, they fully intend to set parenting at the perm orders hearing.  It is "typical" here in this area to go back and revisit parenting 5-10 times before your kids turn 18.  I guess that's what happens when you don't setup a realistic progressive parenting plan up front... .

[jmrslc]

Interesting IC session this week.  She doesn't want a "diagnosis" to follow me around, but she wants me to start to figure out my patterns, who I really am, and learn to like myself.  It looks like I meet the majority of the characteristics of DPD (Dependent personality disorder).  Ironically, not so much in the workplace (but pervasive in my personal life).

It explains (doesn't justify) why when my stbx was redirecting her attention to everything but me (and when she kept saying I was too needy) I latched on to someone else.  In reality, I might have actually been too needy (for HER).

Trying to sit with it, learn from it, understand it, decide what I feel is accurate and "own it" if that makes sense.  It is a lot better than the last 15+ years of going to therapy and not having any idea "what was wrong with me" or why I stayed in bad situations (or rushed into relationships despite red flags). 

On the divorce front, we are trying to put together a settlement offer.  I am concerned we are just wasting time and money since stbx isn't likely going to accept it.  It is very generous on every front (parenting, money, property, abandons some of my pre-marital claims to cash/assets, etc.).  I have had a real come to jesus with my L about this, and while I am probably giving too much, I am almost positive my stbx will not take it (and I will feel like I gave it my all at that point).

She made some nasty comment last night when I dropped the boys off, I texted her that I felt we do much better when we limit our communications to the boys, to which she replied "stop texting me things like that" <sigh what the heck moment>.  This after she calls me for advice about what car service to do, calls me today to discuss something else.  This "only about the boys" thing isn't holding up ;/.

The one thing this diagnosis has done for me is help me realize why I was struggling letting go (at least a little -- I still have a lot of reflection and self-actualization to do).  I was more dependent on her [insert random person] and the ideology than "in love" with her.

It does scare me that I may struggle to ever really find true emotional intimacy ;/

[jmrslc]

Interesting IC session this week.  She doesn't want a "diagnosis" to follow me around, but she wants me to start to figure out my patterns, who I really am, and learn to like myself.  It looks like I meet the majority of the characteristics of DPD (Dependent personality disorder).  Ironically, not so much in the workplace (but pervasive in my personal life).

It explains (doesn't justify) why when my stbx was redirecting her attention to everything but me (and when she kept saying I was too needy) I latched on to someone else.  In reality, I might have actually been too needy (for HER).

Trying to sit with it, learn from it, understand it, decide what I feel is accurate and "own it" if that makes sense.  It is a lot better than the last 15+ years of going to therapy and not having any idea "what was wrong with me" or why I stayed in bad situations (or rushed into relationships despite red flags). 

On the divorce front, we are trying to put together a settlement offer.  I am concerned we are just wasting time and money since stbx isn't likely going to accept it.  It is very generous on every front (parenting, money, property, abandons some of my pre-marital claims to cash/assets, etc.).  I have had a real come to jesus with my L about this, and while I am probably giving too much, I am almost positive my stbx will not take it (and I will feel like I gave it my all at that point).

She made some nasty comment last night when I dropped the boys off, I texted her that I felt we do much better when we limit our communications to the boys, to which she replied "stop texting me things like that" <sigh what the heck moment>.  This after she calls me for advice about what car service to do, calls me today to discuss something else.  This "only about the boys" thing isn't holding up ;/.

The one thing this diagnosis has done for me is help me realize why I was struggling letting go (at least a little -- I still have a lot of reflection and self-actualization to do).  I was more dependent on her [insert random person] and the ideology than "in love" with her.

It does scare me that I may struggle to ever really find true emotional intimacy ;/

Almost a month has gone by.  I am dying inside.  I have reached a real low point in my life.  I rarely go back and forth between hoping for reconciliation.  Once or twice in the last few weeks, only to get an ear full. 

I have lost most of my support system, and the ones I have left have lost any trust or respect for me.

I wake up everyday to a nightmare.

My L finally "fired me".  She says this is the most high conflict divorce she has ever seen and she referred me to her mentor.  I am another multiple four figures in debt just for the "ramp up" time.  My STBex is vilifying me to everyone.  I don't even know that the child family investigator will see through her crap.  Heck, I believe it most of the time.

Dying inside, not sure how to keep going. 

[livednlearned]

Almost a month has gone by.  I am dying inside.  I have reached a real low point in my life.  I rarely go back and forth between hoping for reconciliation.  Once or twice in the last few weeks, only to get an ear full. 

I have lost most of my support system, and the ones I have left have lost any trust or respect for me.

I wake up everyday to a nightmare.

My L finally "fired me".  She says this is the most high conflict divorce she has ever seen and she referred me to her mentor.  I am another multiple four figures in debt just for the "ramp up" time.  My STBex is vilifying me to everyone.  I don't even know that the child family investigator will see through her crap.  Heck, I believe it most of the time.

Dying inside, not sure how to keep going. 

You will get through this, but you have to pull yourself through it, jmrslc. Your L did not fire you, she recognized that she does not have enough experience. People have been saying that gently to you for a while.

This is the dark side of the hero's journey. Don't know any other way to say it. You won't be the same when you come out the other side, but you have to make choices, it doesn't just happen by itself. Choose to believe that you are ok. Makes it easier for others to feel the same way.

[jmrslc]

She has been asking me constantly to negotiate.  Latest text dialog (sanitized for personable identifiable info):

HER: I sent email about parenting. 8:51 PM

HER: You are not responding BC you want control. It is sad. 9:11 PM

Me: This has nothing to do with control... .Please stop. I am thinking about what you sent, but am concerned that it still equates to one overnight a week, even once s11mo is three. 2.5s will be almost 5. 9:14 PM

Me: My boys deserve more time with me than one overnight a week and a few hours twice a week. 8:03 AM

HER: Deserve? Is is a sentence you giving them. If they deserved it, where were you all that time before you true priorities (you/her) were discovered? Let a CFI or judge decide then. 8:15 AM

Me: So you don't want to negotiate and try to save time, money, and do the best thing for the boys, and not hand off the decisions to a random third party? 8:27 AM

HER: That is what you and your attorney have started. These are my children. I am not buying a new car. What I have proposed is a lot of their waking time when you are not working. It is certainly more time than you have a history of spending with them. 8:33 AM

Me: You asked if we were going to negotiate. That implies not taking an inflexible position. Where is there room for movement? Help me understand. 8:52 AM

HER: Summers 8:53 AM

Me: What do you mean? 8:53 AM

HER: I firmly believe weekday overnights are detrimental once school starts. 8:54 AM

HER: You can have an additional overnight during "summer" plus vaca time 8:54 AM

Me: I would like to have an overnight during the week too... .8:55 AM

HER: They are too young for that many now. 8:55 AM

Me: 2.5s is not 8:56 AM

HER: Do not separate them. You destroyed their family. They need to be a unit. I don't care what that mediation paper said... .being a unit is best for them. They are their own consistent family. 9:01 AM

HER: Do not desperate them. 9:01 AM

Me: If we can work this out ourselves, I am all for it, but neither one of us can take a hard stance. 9:01 AM

HER: I am not going to budge on that. 9:02 AM

Me: so you won't budge on separating them, you won't budge on more than one overnight per week until 2.5s is school age, you won't budge on weekday overnights. 9:05 AM


Do I let the judge or CFI decide?  <sigh>

[livednlearned]

She has been asking me constantly to negotiate.  Latest text dialog (sanitized for personable identifiable info):

HER: I sent email about parenting. 8:51 PM

HER: You are not responding BC you want control. It is sad. 9:11 PM

Me: This has nothing to do with control... .Please stop. I am thinking about what you sent, but am concerned that it still equates to one overnight a week, even once s11mo is three. 2.5s will be almost 5. 9:14 PM

Me: My boys deserve more time with me than one overnight a week and a few hours twice a week. 8:03 AM

HER: Deserve? Is is a sentence you giving them. If they deserved it, where were you all that time before you true priorities (you/her) were discovered? Let a CFI or judge decide then. 8:15 AM

Me: So you don't want to negotiate and try to save time, money, and do the best thing for the boys, and not hand off the decisions to a random third party? 8:27 AM

HER: That is what you and your attorney have started. These are my children. I am not buying a new car. What I have proposed is a lot of their waking time when you are not working. It is certainly more time than you have a history of spending with them. 8:33 AM

Me: You asked if we were going to negotiate. That implies not taking an inflexible position. Where is there room for movement? Help me understand. 8:52 AM

HER: Summers 8:53 AM

Me: What do you mean? 8:53 AM

HER: I firmly believe weekday overnights are detrimental once school starts. 8:54 AM

HER: You can have an additional overnight during "summer" plus vaca time 8:54 AM

Me: I would like to have an overnight during the week too... .8:55 AM

HER: They are too young for that many now. 8:55 AM

Me: 2.5s is not 8:56 AM

HER: Do not separate them. You destroyed their family. They need to be a unit. I don't care what that mediation paper said... .being a unit is best for them. They are their own consistent family. 9:01 AM

HER: Do not desperate them. 9:01 AM

Me: If we can work this out ourselves, I am all for it, but neither one of us can take a hard stance. 9:01 AM

HER: I am not going to budge on that. 9:02 AM

Me: so you won't budge on separating them, you won't budge on more than one overnight per week until 2.5s is school age, you won't budge on weekday overnights. 9:05 AM


Do I let the judge or CFI decide?  <sigh>

You need to stop texting about child custody. Texting is what you do when you ask what groceries to pick up, or where to meet for coffee.

Custody is what you discuss with your lawyer.

You are dying inside because you keep putting yourself in the line of fire. She is high-functioning BPD and using all the techniques, and you are not strong enough right now for this.

No more texting, jmrslc.

Also, weekday overnights are not detrimental. I shared her perspective when I was in mediation. Kids do remarkably well, much better than we do.

[ForeverDad]

Do I let the judge or CFI decide?  <sigh>

Who else would you want to decide?  Based on your accounts thus far, the LAST person you would want involved in deciding parenting is your blaming/belittling ex.  So if you're pondering letting her make the decisions... .yikes!

LnL wrote well.  Your ex is still frothing with blaming.  Still.  You can't deal with that.  So stop trying to reason with her, at least for the long term schedules and issues.  In her eyes you are, how do I say it, remember the shark movie and the sea creature that was told he was less than whale poo?  Yeah, you can't make a settlement with someone making you out to be someone who doesn't care and who would probably not honor any agreement anyway.  I've posted here before that most courts will automatically assign you more time than she is willing to 'allow' you to have.  Yes, if she makes allegations you might get less while they have someone to assess things and verify you're not a danger to the children but eventually you will get far more from the court than from her.

Typical schedule for children under 3:  alternate weekends (sometimes shorter) and up to 2-3 visits or overnights in between.

Typical schedule for children 3 & over:  alternate weekends and 1-2 visits or overnights in between.

You've been here 3 months.  When is your next court date?  Surely it must be soon.  Try your best not to let her delay it.  She is blocking your reasonable parental access to the children.  The court will remedy that but not until you get into court.

By the way, have you gotten the import of our suggestions and comments?  You keep coming back with the same issues multiple times.  It's almost like she's able to make you run around in circles and not get anywhere.  And our replies are pretty much the same:  Do the best you can with parenting for now, give up the idea of reasoning with her, her incessant blaming won't allow her to listen to anything reasonable you try to say and get into court with a capable experienced attorney as soon as you can.  And when you do get into court don't be timid, you're a capable father who wants as much parenting as possible so make sure the court sees that.

[jmrslc]

The next court date is TBD, as we vacating the hearing.  A CFI has been appointed, and one of the motions we filed was for the judge to immediately set a status conference once her findings are complete to give me more parenting time. 

My new attorney seems to have the "cajones" to stand up to my ex and her L.

Today has been hard.  She is seeing someone, and I got my boys for the day so she could go on an all-day date.  I know it is par for the course, but I am struggling with her dating so soon .

[jmrslc]

As an aside, my new L says "we are not negotiating with her, we are letting the judge decide".