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I am going to try and ask her tomorrow if there is anything I need to bring or be prepared for. 

I have no idea what they will ask or want to know.


Anyone have advice or been through this before. 

You can reference some of my previous posts to see some of the fuller story about why this is going on.

What are the issues to be discussed?  Her physical punishments?  The claims each parent is making about the other?


Perhaps they may wonder what caused this conflict to erupt after being in a relationship for so long.

Partly this is about her raging while administering punishments.  She's probably denying doing anything wrong, your recording should support your concern that she was in an out-of-control rage when trying to punish the children.  Since physical punishment isn't frowned upon in your state, perhaps you should focus on how out-of-control she was.  Maybe compare it to a driver with road rage.

Partly this is about you and why the children would say you're the one to be feared.  The recording of her improperly coaching the children should help.  "Your father's trying to take you away from me... . "  The only good coaching is to ask them to tell the truth.  You can state that the issues are far deeper than they appear on the surface, that the children were stating only what they felt safe to say.  State you want the children all in counseling so that they can get objective and informed professional support but are concerned your spouse will obstruct your efforts.  Can't hurt to ask that part of their report focus on the children and their need for counseling.

Partly this is about you and why only now did this come to their attention.  You can honestly state it has been difficult for a long time, that you tried to 'manage' it as best you could but that you're not a mental health professional and only recently started working on your boundaries for proper and respectful behavior and this may have in part been why she has been Overreacting and wrongly trying to Shift Blame onto you.  (We call it an 'extinction burst' here.)

Most professionals that deal with abuse are familiar with the Duluth Model of DV Intervention.  Google ":)uluth Model domestic violence".  Specifically print out the power and control and then also the equality wheels.  It will help give you a framework within which to describe her abusive behaviors (from the power and control wheel) as well as something to refer to in describing how you are trying to shift the dynamic (the equality wheel).

Abusers always escalate at first when challenged.  They fear losing their control, and so they intensify their abusive behavior to try to regain control.  That behavior has worked in the past, so they resort to it in stronger ways out of fear.  I think you simply start by stating and describing her history of behavior towards you and the kids and how you have recently started to try to stop the cycle.  You can use the terminology on the wheels to help you describe it all.  Then, you can describe how she's escalating and conspiring with the kids and lord knows who else to make you out to be the bad guy, instead of her.  It probably started as literally blackmail she was going to use to try to keep you line (things like I'll figure out a way to get you fired, tell everyone this or that, etc.). 

Then you simply state while the physical punishment to the kids might not meet a threshold to for the law in your state to consider anything inappropriate or wrong, it still has hit a threshold for you that is wrong and you still believe it is excessive and abusive based on seeing her in action.  Also, she's become more and more emotionally and mentally controlling and abusive towards you and the kids based on all the things you've described and as supported by the recordings and false accusations she's making.  As a father, you are committed to stopping this situation from getting even worse, and changing the dynamic so the kids and yourself are not abused anymore.

My dad told me once (and looking back on growing up he really did always follow through on this), he never spanked us when he was in the heat of angry emotions.  He always sent us to our rooms.  Now, we might have sat there for a very long time, but when we got spanked, it was always after he'd calmed down.  He'd come in, calmly explain what the infraction was, that we knew the rules, and now he had to follow through on the consequences.  Then, we'd get some strokes with the belt.  He never used his hand because he'd gone on a call as a volunteer EMT once and seen a case where a toddler had broken bones after a hand spanking.  So he used a belt because it wasn't like a blunt, hard instrument and would leave a whelt, but not break anything, as long as used in moderation.  Anyway, after the spanking, he'd always follow up with how much he loved us, then leave the room, and come back a while later for a hug, and let us out.  If any sibling snickered or something, they then got in trouble.  He always said the punishment is done, it's over, time to move on, and the other kids need to keep their mouth's shut as discipline was his purview and not any other kids.  Looking back, the act of love and forgiveness afterwards was probably the most important part of the whole process. 

The out of control rage, whether she's beating anyone or not, is definitely abusive even if it doesn't fit the definition of your state's laws for physical abuse.  It's okay to just plain tell the DSS agent that, and that you no longer want or accept that behavior in your home and you have a goal to ensure your kids are protected from that in the future.

Is your L involved yet?  Could your L attend this meeting with you?  So far your L seems to have been MIA.  If you can't get your L to start coming out of hiding, I'd urge you to strongly consider finding a new L that can be by your side for all this.

First:  Lawyer questions.  He has dealt with this in his family and has sole custody of his kids.  If we really start doing motions and filings... . then he will be in action.

There is a tactical decision here to not "lawyer" first.  She has threatened for years... . I have never threatened... . never will... . I will just do it... . if I believe it needs to be done.

He knows my wife... . somewhat.  And he is pushing hard for a therapeutic resolution... . or more properly stated... . to make sure that all therapeutic options are handled first.  Part of this is to portray myself (rightly so) as wanted to "fix" or heal the situation and not to "lawyer" my wife.  Again... . I know that most likely that is coming. 

So... . I need to let the DSS process work until/if I am convince there are no teeth or it is worthless.  In other words... . if she does not "comply with counselor" and nothing happens then I think it will make sense for me to act.

More later on this... . I'm a bit pressed for time.  To include a chat with my L.

The duluth wheels are absolute genius... . organizes and explains it very well.

Once again... . the power of this forum and getting lots of eyes an opinions on a situation... . is huge... . absolutely huge... . thanks so much! |iiii

Will your wife or any of your children or anybody else be at this meeting with the DSS investigator?

No... . my impression is that the investigator is coming out to interview everyone... individually.


They made a big deal the first night that we all got to a room together.  Then they took kids out one by one.

The intent is that once the interviews start... . that nobody gets to talk about what else got talked about.

So... . I think on Wed they will talk to my wife individually... . and then each of my kids individually.  And then I am meeting the investigator at a separate location.


I don't think any decisions will be made... . just gathering the facts. 

Then again... . I was wrong before... . so... . we'll see.

It may be okay to say you're concerned they may have aspects of Stockholm Syndrome where they side with the poorly behaving person either because they've got a distorted bond or because there are fewer consequences in doing so.  That's a syndrome that applies more widely than with hostages in a bank robbery.  In a way they're emotional hostages to at least some extent and being children they can't be expected to know how to counteract emotional pressuring.

See the handout about that on the Articles tab at drjoecarver.com

Article: Love and Stockholm Syndrome: The Mystery of Loving an Abuser

Coaching the kids and leading them to actively work against and hurt their father is Parental Alienation, pure and simple.  A lot of courts won't recognize PA as a syndrome, but there are hordes of mental health professionals that do recognize the destructive nature of such actions as it relates to impacts to the children.

If you have a chance, look up more information on "Parentification of Children" and "Parental Alienation".  Both are considered emotionally/mentally abusive towards kids by most reputable mental health professionals.  You're recordings will provide some backup, but eventually you'll need an actual therapist (Ph.D level) to evaluate and give expert supporting testimony to make it stick in court or with DSS.

Formflier, I'm going to push on you here. When people here tell you (repeatedly) that you should be talking to a lawyer, it's really good advice. Whether you get divorced or not, you are now in the system. You should be asking your lawyer bunches of questions right now about the DSS investigation. 

I get that you feel DSS could help you, but right now, it sure seems like they're treating you like the perpetrator. You mentioned not getting your lawyer involved unless you go through with divorce, but if I were in your position, I would want to know exactly how these family investigations could play out if DSS/CPS decides you're the abuser. You have an RO. History of PTSD. Military background. Your kids have said they're afraid of you. DSS didn't show much interest in your recording -- maybe they have good reason based on past experience with audio recordings. I dunno. Right now, job number one is to convince DSS that you aren't the perpetrator. Your lawyer should be in your ear here.

You're kinda in the dog house right now, but you're thinking DSS is going to do a 180 and make your wife attend counseling. If they think you're an abuser, and you start focusing on what's wrong with your wife, that's walking right into the abuser stereotype.

I did a quick look at the screening tools that DSS uses in NC -- there are three that might apply to your situation. One is "improper discipline" and another is "domestic violence." There's another called "emotional abuse." From what you've described, DSS seems more concerned with domestic violence than the other two, even though those are the two you're concerned about.

I'm playing devil's advocate here -- but let's assume they don't listen to the recordings, and the kids repeat that they're afraid of dad. Your wife has had a week to coach them and they corroborate what she says -- that you have a temper. You have an RO, a diagnosis of PTSD, military guy, and you want DSS to "make" your wife go to counseling.

I think you need to really focus on this first, and talk to your lawyer about what happens if DSS determines that Formflier is a perpetrator and requires anger management classes as part of the safety response. What happens if DSS says sign this form -- do you sign? What if you don't sign? If DSS decides DV is involved, does your case get reported to the district attorney? If you have a case that says Formflier has a history of DV, how will that affect divorce + custody? I would also be careful about assuming that if your lawyer ended up with sole custody, that means he's the right lawyer for you. How are your cases the same? How are they different? If anything, you might want to talk to his lawyer, the person who represented him. That's the lawyer to be talking to.

A lot of us walk into situations thinking things are all going to work out. A lot of us have learned that the system is unbelievably broken. You already experienced it by being removed from the home.

My case went in my favor every step of the way, and even so, it felt like being a shark tank. You don't discover how the game is played until you are on the field and by then it's too late. That's why we're here, and people are telling you to talk to your lawyer -- it's good advice!

I'm here... . just really busy.  Yes have had contact with L.  Will give report later.

Meeting my VA psychologist in a bit to review my record... make sure where I think I stand... . is where I really stand.

DSS this afternoon. 

There is a strategy that is coming together that says I've "pulled a lever" with the DSS thing... . and things will change.  While I am ready for her to "do things"... . and will obviously respond... . I need to see how the DSS lever pull plays out.

I hope to get a better vibe after meeting with the case worker/investigator.

Thanks for all the help and pushing... . keep it coming.

I'm reading... . just haven't been able to do thoughtful responses like I would like to.

Glad to hear it's not you alone going up against the system/DSS.

Be careful if you come under pressure to agree or sign to restrictive conditions.  They will probably want to get an "agreement" rather than make an order.  I get a feeling that if it's not reasonable then you shouldn't "agree" to something onerous and that puts you at an extreme disadvantage.  You can abide by an order but I suggest you don't "agree" if it is bad.  My guts talking.

You haven't seen the children since Wednesday a week ago apparently, a huge change for a parent whose seen and parented his children daily.  But I doubt DSS will spill any tears over your situation, after all, you're a man, you can live just fine with infrequent contact, just have deep pockets.

Of course, always phrase it from the children's viewpoint.  Their time with you, rather than your time with them.  They need you, rather than you need them.

In my case, my now-ex and I separated and had mutual TPOs against each other and when they were dismissed a few months later the ordered schedule vanished too.  At that time she had possession of our preschooler and she immediately blocked all father-child contact, even phone calls.  Meanwhile, I prepared and filed for divorce and waited for the initial hearing to set (another) temp order.  In all, it was over 3 months since I had time with my son when I got into court.  The magistrate even confirmed it with her.  So he said, "I'll fix this", ordered the same father-gets-alternate-weekends order we had before and did not offer any make-up time at all for the 3 blocked months.  In fact, ex had the temerity to ask for a week's delay but the so very stern (not!) magistrate said he would only grant her a one day delay.  So my 3 day reunion weekend - after blocking for 3 months - was less reduced to than two days. :'(

Yeah... . the system is frustrating... .

A little time for a quick update.

Chatted with lawyer... . he is familiar with the differences in both counties dss "styles".  He explained the tact to take to focus on wife's "unexplained irritability" and to focus on the need for the system to help explain that. 

As for kids fearing me... . we have recordings of coaching.  And if they start snooping in my record they will find a guy that has acknowledged issues and has stepped up to work on them. 

The crazy picture of this guy that refuses meds and has out of control PTSD doesn't exist in any record.   That was the gist of the meeting with the psychologist.  There are some reports I need to read and may have some follow up questions about... . but the big picture is a guy that is being responsible with his "issues".


As far as signing or doing any of that... . I will take docs and have reviewed by lawyer.  There should be no reason for me to "sign right now... . or else".  I won't do that. 

The investigator (dss) has said that today is about gathering data (not her exact words)... . but no like she will make a decision and bolt.

One thing (among many) that I would like advice on.  If they ask for releases to talk to counselors... . I am considering giving them a conditional release that says... . I'm happy for you to talk to marriage counselor x... . as long as Mrs form signs permission as well. 

Otherwise... . the counselors have said they would only talk about me... . and nobody else.

Thoughts on that? 

Been a busy... . but... productive day.

DSS is interviewing kids now.  I have been in text contact to see if I can move my interview up... . she said she would text when done chatting with my kids.

Separation from kids:  Unfortunately... . with the Navy... . I've had practice.  This is a bit different... . but still... . it's not completely foreign to me.  So far I'm holding up OK.

But wasn't that a least a couple years ago?  Well, that's not the current 'Normal'.  The situation now is different from back then.  Yes, you have the personal strength to handle absence, but this is about the children in the here and now.  They are used to seeing you daily.  That is the historical pattern for the last few years.  That's what means the most.  Going too far back is fishing and/or stale and should not be seen as basis to ignore the more recent history/years.

Remember, sometimes we are too fair and shortchange ourselves.  Beware of being too self-deprecating.  In good times that's a wonderful trait.  In high conflict cases, that is a self-sabotaging trait.

Yep... understand the point.  I was speaking from my personal point of view that I have a place to go to for this.

Also understand the point about not being nice or accommodating.

One nuance here is that she is a bit "trapped".  I am considering how... if ever I do this... . but I may have to point this out.

We live in small county and small town.  Right now this is sort of private.  If we exit the DSS system and she tries to play keep away... . then she is going to be standing against "my" hometown. 

I was born and raised here... . she was not.  Lawyer says slam dunk if she runs with kids they can be back in 10 days if he pushes it.

Most people here are surprised to hear there are issues... . the few that I have told.

I generally hate do this "or else deals"... . I just don't do them... . but if something like that comes up... . I may have to.

I too avoided doing anything to rock the boat, even though the boat was already being seriously rocked.  Not until I had No Other Choice.  At that point I had to hope it was not too late to stand up for myself and my child, my future and my child's future.

I think that speaking of that sort of "deal" is a no-win move on your part. Consider:

If she already realizes the situation, she's doing a good job of ignoring it--pointing it out won't change things.

If she doesn't realize the situation, and she believes you, it sounds like a threat, and she's likely to react badly.

If she doesn't believe you, it still isn't going to influence her in a good direction.

If somebody's going to tell her about the situation that way, it shouldn't be you. Hopefully not even your lawyer.

... . and more importantly, this thread is about DSS, and if they get a report of you saying anything of the sort, it will sound like you are threatening her--makes you look very bad!

I hope things went ok for you. Good to hear the plan was for data gathering. Did they listen to the recording as part of data gathering?


I don't know that anyone can answer that for you, can they? It depends on how the MC views you, if the MC is aware that your wife is BPD. Showing transparency probably falls under the guise of "dad is open, willing to discuss his stuff, is working on things. Mom, not so much."

But if you think the MC in any way thought you were controlling, domineering, etc., then maybe it wouldn't play out so well for you with DSS.

I don't think it would reflect badly on you to say, please talk to MC if wife gives permission too.

The DSS interview went well...

I will fill in details later... .

Overall good chat.  I felt like I got to tell my story and I think I have filled in some gaps in my knowledge... . and I can see the area that DSS is looking at now and going ?

So... the good news is that I went last... . so I got info from what wife and kids said to some things.

Wife gave accurate list of counselors... . and has signed consent.  I saw those and happily signed mine.

The "restrictions" or safety plan has been upgraded to where I can do social things with kids or have them over to other family houses.

Right now they just don't want me alone in my own home with them.

One of the questions hanging out there... . that I could see the investigator wrestling with is that why are the kids fearful of dad... . when dad has quit doing corporal punishment... . and mom is the one doing the spanking... . and the kids are saying that spanking is not a big deal.

No allegation that I have hit. 

I'm thinking through answers to this based on what I heard... . or was asked.  Will be back to that later.

Oh... and since there were no marks... . that takes the corporal punishment thing off the list.  That seems to be a hard and fast rule. 

I hope this makes sense... . I'm a bit tired. 

Ask questions... I'll try to clean up responses in the morning sometime.




My uBPDw has an evaluation session tomorrow with the T that she is supposed to keep going to and "comply" with.  This is very good that is it scheduled now.

Did you play the recordings of mom coaching them?  Mom is manipulating things to cause this situation.  She's coaching them, as well as her actions might really be causing the kids to be afraid when there is no real need/justification.

About parental alienation - therapists do accept that the alienation attempts do happen and that the children are impacted.  I believe the difficulty is about "Parental Alienation Syndrome" (PAS), a description dating back to 1985, a proposed disorder in which a child, on an ongoing basis, belittles and insults one parent without justification, due to a combination of factors, including indoctrination by the other parent (almost exclusively as part of a child custody dispute) and the child's own attempts to denigrate the target parent.  Courts, which already favor documented behaviors and actions over diagnostic labels, are reluctant to reference it because it hadn't been embraced in the DSM.  However, the DSM does have a closely related diagnostic category of parent-child relational problem which includes "hostility toward or scapegoating of the other (parent)"

Yes... . she listened to all them and acknowledged that there was some there.

One of the things that several kids consistently talked about... . and where "some" of the fear came from was listening to us argue at night for years.  I'm sure I'm still minimizing how much that happened.

Back in the day... . when she was really bad about waking me up to talk about all kinds of crazy theories... . accusations... . and what not... . I had the attitude for a while that if you are going to wake me up to have it out... . let's have it out. 

Really bad... . I now know that I fed the cycle.  I can't undo what the kids have heard... . and it was scary to me.  I can only imagine what it was like to my kids listening to that while they are trying to get sleep.

So... I'm not saying there is no coaching... . there was.  But I now understand a little more about this "fear" that the kids reported.

I have a visit with my T today.  I'm sure that will be a hot topic.

Fellas... . I am still convinced that I did the right thing.  I knew for a fact that after I made the report... . things would never been the same in my family... . ever again.

I still don't know what the future holds... . but I'm 100% solid that I ain't going back to what was.

Oh... . and sorry I've been a bit sparse the last few days.  Incredibly busy... . trying to finish up the budget.  It's close.

Did the DSS investigator make it clear what happens next?

DSS seems to be more involved in what occurs between the parents. That's different from how family courts view things, in my experience.

Something else you might want to look at is therapeutic separation, though it's a toss up if this is wise of not given your situation. Might want to start a thread getting feedback about how therapeutic separation might play out for you: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=141686.0

I mention it because you're already living separately, and you're not entirely ready to press the D button. Therapeutic separation might give you some structure going forward, and your MC might be able to counsel you how it works.

I saw that thread... . and have had similar thoughts about the separation thing.


We have a marriage counseling session next week.  Next Wed I think.

That will be interesting.  I need to think that through and prepare.

In other news... . just had good long meeting with my lawyer in my office.   Reviewed everything that has happened and we feel good about where we are sitting.

More later.

Forgive me if I missed it, but any mention by DSS about separate counseling for the children?  IMO, it would be a very good thing for the kids to be able to talk to someone to work through things and learn tools for dealing with Mom.  I do get that there is some mending the fences with you that needs to happen, but relating to a normal parent vs a disordered one is a whole different ballgame. 

Yeah... . so if you look back several threads started by me... . you will see one about an "ambush" family counseling.  Turned into... . all about me.

Well... . I think that guy is actually pretty solid.  40+ years experience... . PHD... . he is going to be the family counselor for the kids.  Before he gets into that he is going to have several individual... . and continuing sessions with both parents... . me an uBPDw. 

Today was her first session. 

His theory is that whatever is going on with kids is a result of the parents conflict and he needs to more fully understand... . and hopefully lessen that conflict to start helping the kids.  He will be getting the DSS investigators notes and reports on all the kids... .

We had long talk about uBPDw being a possible borderline.  He has experience... . and said he would obviously have to come to his own conclusions.

Also has lots of experience with PTSD.

Some very cautious optimism that we have a good thing here.

But... . you exactly have the right idea... that the kids need tools to deal with their parents... . and he has said as much... . that is why he needs to really understand each parent.


More thoughts later on all this. 

 

Good news to report. 

Family was together last night for a parade/festival thing in one of the small towns in this county. 

It was good to see and play with all the kids.

No bad stuff was brought up.

We are going to meet up at another public event, with kids play blow up bouncy things and spend time there for a couple of hours.

I am again in uncharted waters here... . so looking for advice.  The quick version of my plan is to focus on having healthy family interactions.

We have a marriage counseling this coming Thursday.  I don't plan on trying to bring anything heavy up until then.

What is your sense about your wife's parenting when you were deployed?

I can imagine that you're deployed = no fighting between mom and dad. Then dad comes home = fighting between mom and dad. Then the kids coming to the conclusion (with the help of your wife) that you are the problem.

Do any of your kids display BPD traits? It's possible that they don't recognize the more subtle patterns of abuse and disordered thinking because that's all they've known. They just see that dad comes home and there is fighting, and mom tells them you're being mean to her, and they side with her because she's the primary parent. Better to be on her good side in case you leave again.

My therapist pointed out to me that if I struggled to make sense of this disorder and couldn't cope, imagine how it was for a child. For us, it feels like survival. For kids, it is survival.

I think you're handling stuff well.  The situations where you are all together, outdoors among other people, and everything is about the kids, seem OK, with maybe a little risk.  Make sure you know what you will do if your wife begins to act out - will you leave the situation?  Or handle it some other way?  You can't wait til she flips out and then try to figure it out;  you have to have a plan you can execute quickly to end the escalation.

I think it was probably good that you mentioned BPD to the psychologist, and good that you leave that topic alone when you talk with him and with your wife.  You have made your point.

Since he has a Ph.D. he is qualified to diagnose her (and you).  Watch for a tendency to diagnose without any objective instrument like the MMPI-2;  that could be dangerous.  You might ask him at some point if he will be diagnosing either or both of you, and if he ever uses objective evaluations in his diagnoses.  ":)o you have the authority to ask us to take objective psych evals?"  Make it clear that your interest is in getting all the relevant information into his hands, not in accusing your wife of something, or in avoiding evaluation yourself.

Let him take the lead, for the most part.  Know how many sessions there will be.  If the process is nearing its end and the focus has all been on you, point that out, and ask that the remaining time be focused on your wife's behavior and the results of that.

Find ways to bring up "parental alienation", but avoid that term.  Talk about anything you have seen or heard which suggests that your wife may be - consciously or unconsciously - doing something that makes the kids scared of you.  Ask the Ph.D. what he thinks is causing the kids' fears.

Be open to suggestions.  If he says, "Maybe you should quit doing X and start doing Y.", say, "OK, I can do that." or maybe, "I don't do X - why would you think that I do?" (if you really don't do X at all).  Listen to his ideas about how you can make improvements, and show him, from session to session, that you are making changes that can help (even if you don't think these are the biggest issues).

Make factual statements about your wife's behaviors - not broad characterizations.  :)on't say, "You are always angry!".  Say, "Twice this weekend you yelled at me in front of the kids."

He will evaluate you (and your wife) largely by how you act in the sessions.  Listen to your with and the therapist carefully and don't interrupt.  Say your truth clearly - don't tip-toe around important issues.  Don't exaggerate or get upset, but if something she says makes you mad, say, "When you accuse me of something I didn't do, I feel angry."  Name your emotions - "Right now I feel very frustrated that we have spent the whole hour talking about something that happened several years ago and we aren't focused on what is happening over the last few weeks."

That's encouraging, especially the part about taking his time and getting to know you.  The danger might be if he comes to conclusions based on a few sessions with your wife on her best behavior.

Be patient and remember the outcome you want:  Identification of all the factors contributing to the problem and ways to make them better.  If you believe that one factor is that she may have BPD, that won't get fixed without a lot of work on her part and the right help.

One theory is that a person with BPD may be more likely to get and accept help if the disorder is never named.  This was explained to me by the person who first told me about BPD:  our fourth marriage counselor.  She said that if someone is told they have BPD, they will look it up, and they'll be scared, so they will deny it, and either attack the other party (me), or the therapist.  Sometimes therapists are physically attacked, or the person with BPD may complain to the therapist's boss, or file a complaint against her.  And nobody wins - the person with BPD gets no help.

So her method was to spend time alone with each of us, and use her time with my wife to treat her as if she had been diagnosed with BPD - gradually begin individual therapy with her.  This didn't work, but it might have if the therapist had more time.  (We ended therapy because I saw that it was not going to save the marriage so I proceeded with the divorce.)  Success in treating BPD takes years.

The therapist told me not to mention BPD to my wife, and I didn't, until we had given up on therapy and proceeded with the divorce.  Then I filed a motion to have a Custody Evaluator appointed, and he diagnosed my wife with BPD and some other stuff.

So... . it may be sensible for your couples therapist to not mention BPD to your wife, and it may be best for you to cooperate with that for now.

I agree it is encouraging.  I need to challenge myself... . and will need backup from you guys to keep myself "centered" and focused on getting my wife and family help... . and me... . and not have me getting happy... declaring this all fixed... . and jumping back in.

That's not going to happen... . me going back with no good fixes or changes to what has been wrong for past 5 years.

That being said... . I do hope for healing... . I need to be able to acknowledge and act on good progress... . but keep it in the proper perspective.

When I try to step back and look at where I am at... . so far... . I'm not repeating any old... failed patterns.  This is good... . doesn't mean what I am doing will be successful... . but it is good nonetheless

I agree with Matt -- you're handling things really well. And you're shining some light on the family dynamics, and it can really help to have experts see how everyone functions. It sure rocked my world.  


Maybe something to talk to your T about is how you should handle a situation like the one Matt describes. Tell your T about the time in church when your wife demanded you kiss her or she would divorce you. Was it best to get up and walk out? Is it helpful to email the whole family and explain what was going on -- which I think you did.

Ask for input on how to work on this with your family. You have kids of all ages, so it could be that addressing the family in one swoop isn't appropriate, but maybe to the older kids, you can be proactive, and explain that your goal is to manage conflict in a healthy way -- so going forward, when someone does abc, you are going to do xyz. You think it's best to let emotions cool so people can avoid heated arguments, etc. Or whatever it is you're trying to do.

You and everyone here  :)

I don't want to throw another book title at you -- you have a lot of reading already on your plate! But Parenting with Love and Logic is a good one when you get around to it. For now, reading about BPD is important, and seeing a therapist will really help.

My hunch is that being vulnerable with your kids will bowl them right over. "Guys, I'm learning that you feel this way about me. It's the last thing I would want the people I love most in this world to feel. I'm trying to learn new ways of doing things, and it's going to be a work in progress. I'm going to make some mistakes. But I'm ready to get started, and want to hear from you about whether some of the new changes make you feel better about our relationship."

But first, like you said -- sometimes taking a walk is the best line of defense so you can collect your thoughts. Change is hard, and being able to recognize when it's time to gather yourself is important. I think your instinct to address the family was a good one, my thinking is that you and your T might come up with something similar, but proactively instead of after the fact, which made you feel like you had to explain your actions on the defense. Telling the family in advance what you're working on, and why you're choosing to solve it by doing xyz might help them support you instead of feeling alarmed. Doing it after the fact also gave your wife a chance to take over your message instead of letting you be in front of it.

You're doing good work, formflier! It's hard stuff. Not for the faint of heart.

formflier, I'm with Matt on the  planning idea here... .


I think your plan for this is good... . but I've got another area to suggest you plan for:

The DSS evaluation period will end. During this period, you are prohibited from non-public situations with your wife. I've heard you mention hopes that DSS will require your wife to get help. But they could just decide that your kids aren't really at risk from either parent and drop all restrictions... . or even if they require/recommend therapy, there may be no teeth in it for your wife.

At this point, you are free to just move back in. If you do that, you will need to make plans for much more difficult situations that are likely to come up.

Conversely, if DSS wants more time to evaluate things, or asks you to have supervised contact with the children or contact anything less than what's considered normal for a parent, ponder your options with your lawyer.  Being 'ordered' to limited or supervised contact without basis is one thing, 'agreeing' to a settlement is another.  That's my feeling on this.

In my case, my ex and I separated, we had cases pending against each other.  During that time court assigned me alternate weekends and an evening in between, clearly not seeing me as any sort of risk.  Due to her allegations, CPS had even stepped up and stated in court they had "no concerns" about me.  Yet when the cases were dismissed a few months later we were cast back into the limbo of "both parents have rights but nothing specified".  She refused to allow contact, telling me she would only allow supervised visitation.  I told her that wasn't appropriate seeing we'd just had 4 months of orders with no restrictions for my parenting.  She promptly walked out.  Of course she wasn't listening, the court had made her entitled again by ending a schedule she didn't like.  So I didn't get time with my son for over 3 months while I prepared and filed for divorce and waited for the initial hearing - and the orders then were the same as before.   But I was not going to 'agree' to supervised visitation when the court had already accepted I wasn't a risk to our child.  Your case is of course a little different, you have yet to get a fact-filled conclusion from the court or agencies about you.  But I mention this in case any factors apply in your situation.

 

We met at church and sat as a family.  She had told me that most likely she would come to church but skip the fish fry fundraiser afterwards.

Big group of people were talking after church... . several of the kids were saying they were hungry... . so I asked if they would like to go down to fish fry.  She was open to it and we went down to have lunch as family... nothing rushed.  Lots of good conversation.

Things I noticed. 

When she first showed up at church.  There was some tightness to her face.  I'm guessing there was some internal struggle of some sort. 

They sat in pew and then I moved over to sit next to her.  I had been with my parents. 

In my opinion she was much more relaxed after being there 10 min or so. 

Note... . her mom is still in town and her sister is at the house as well.  Both shown signs of BPD.

So... . I can only imagine what was in her mind.

Tonight we will meet at a church function for our marriage "class or group" at church.  We had been going through a series about what the Bible has to say about marriage.  This is an end of season thing where we bring families for a get together.


We have our first marriage counseling (since the DSS intervention) this Thursday.  I will try to confirm with her she has this on her calendar.  That is about the only edgy thing I seem coming up... . it could trigger something.  I doubt it... but want to be ready.

It's hard to look at our faults like this -- you're doing really good work here.

I have found that being vulnerable with my son, like admitting I didn't handle something well, has created a lot more closeness and intimacy between us. In general, I find that asking him questions without defending myself has built the most trust. That is seriously advanced validation  :) -- to let you kids speak how they feel, what they think, even if it's not entirely accurate, especially about something you did or said or felt. And then just letting them have their feelings. No defending on your part. Letting it be about them.

My son told me -- after a really difficult conversation -- that he didn't trust me. Ouch. He said I didn't tell him things and he knew I was hiding things from him. I wanted to give him 1000 reasons why, as a kid, he didn't need to know everything, but you know what? He was right. The fact is that I didn't tell him things, and it doesn't matter why when you're a kid. He felt hurt, and that's what I acknowledged. "You feel hurt because I wasn't telling you everything. Did that make you feel angry at me?" Then he went on to say how he felt, because he realized I was listening. Really listening. He told me he wasn't angry so much as he felt really alone. It was until the next day I brought up the conversation and talked to him about how grown ups sometimes don't tell kids everything blah blah blah. By then, he was ok hearing that. And he didn't get defensive or feel like I wasn't listening.

If you ask your kids how the yelling made them feel, and just focus on how they feel, and not defending why, they'll recognize that you're changing. The hardest part for me in similar situations was slowing things down so that I didn't rush in and start explaining. Really give your kids time to take in this new you. Let there be long pauses and big feelings, even if it hurts, even if you have a different view from what they're perceiving.

Thanks... . I had general thoughts about this... . but this post tightened up the tactics on how to get this done.

I'm hoping that my genuine feelings of heartbreak, my desire to be a new dad, and some help on tactics from this board will help produce a better result.

When I say things about going slow... . you explained it much better... . I shouldn't rush in... . I should let it be about them.

I'll switch gears and say I'm having similar thoughts about my uBPDw... . I'm in no rush to rush back to her... . whatever I can do to focus on positive interactions... . show my openness with the kinds... . might help build our relationship up. 

However... I need to keep in mind my limits with her... . and not ever violate them.

Thanks again and keep the suggestions coming.

 

I've discovered a snag in plans for this week.

Kindergarten promotions are schedule for same time as marriage counseling.

I think the right play is for me to point this out to my uBPDw this evening.  I think I will try to reschedule... I want to see my guy get promoted... and I'm sure she will as well.

This would be the first reschedule with this counselor... . no idea if I can get it in same week... or if I will have to delay a week.

Any thoughts on this? 

I discovered this when I got a robo call from school talking about upcoming activities for the week and I was plugging them into my calendar.

Counseling is important but it can probably be re-scheduled.

The ceremony can't be.

Exactly... . just wanted to make sure I was thinking correctly about this. 

Today ended up being a good day.  She bowed out from the church event this evening.  Lots of cousins in town. 

I didn't make an issue of it via text... . just let her know I hoped they had a good time with the cousins. 

Will work on the counseling scheduling thing first thing in the morning.

Also need to check in with DSS to see what the schedule looks like and if they need more information... . basically to see where we are on this.

So family visiting trumped marriage workshop at this critical time?  Hmm.

My advice:  Be careful of accepting 'guilt' where it may not be appropriate or would make you look worse than you should look.  I'm talking about the times in the past where she would wake you up and you two got into shouting matches.  She was loud or shouting too, right?  (If not, then maybe she was setting you up... . )  So all the children heard was you two yelling at each other.  Then why are the children saying they're fearful of you and not her?  After all, it was an argument the parents had separate from the children, why should that make them fearful of one parent?  It wasn't directed at the children, right?  And if you agree that you did wrong and the other parent isn't included, then you're enabling that perception.  So I recommend that when talking of those events you make it clear you weren't the only one behaving improperly.  Yes, you can explain or apologize only for yourself but still protect yourself from information gaps, don't let her off the hook either.  If the children only know part of the story then you apologizing and her not apologizing will send the wrong message, that only you had culpability in those events and won't help you.  Does that make sense?

I'm thinking that these middle of the night arguments were the only bad things she could find to make you look bad and so she's ramped up the kids about it and, lo and behold, here we are, you being painted as a bad father for things that hadn't even happened recently and didn't involve them anyway to boot! ... . See how diverted and off-track this has gotten?  This can only happen in xPD-Land.

Yep... . I have been thinking a lot about what I would say... and when it might be appropriate.  I can only apologize for what I have done.

Now that lots of the family drama is out in the open... . I think it will become more an more obvious who can accept blame and alter behavior... . and who can't.

I'm also in the uncharted waters of her being in T for the first time ever... . to talk about her.  Not just in the context of MC. 

Back to my original point... . I want to own what I did.  I don't want to leave information gaps (I like that phrase)... . but I do want to stay away form any hint of "she made me"... . that is the same stupid argument that she makes... . Daddy made me mad... .

When what we should be teaching our kids is that we are all responsible for our own behavior.

Thoughts on how to walk that tightrope.

FD makes a really good point -- there is a difference between owning your behavior, and letting others use you for target practice.

When it comes to talking to the kids, it's best to focus on what they feel, and your relationship with them. If they mention mom, set that aside. It's about your relationship with them, and letting them tell you how they feel. If they say, "Mom said you wake up in the middle of the night and yell at her," the best response is to ask them how that makes them feel. You're working with emotions at this point.

Later, like the next day, you can bring it up. "Hey, I was thinking about what you said yesterday. I'm glad you told me how you feel. I'm trying to figure out what to do when mom wakes me up and has an argument on her mind -- the doctor says I really need sleep because of stuff that happened to me when I was away. I'm going to ask her to not wake me up anymore during the night, and to wait until it's daylight to talk about stuff. That's a better time to talk about things anyway, and I won't feel like yelling when I've had enough sleep. I don't want you to feel bad at night like that anymore."

Something along those lines. Correcting the false assumption or accusation after they've been able to unload how they feel.

Focus less on apologies (though those are good if they are true), less on promises, and mostly on practical solutions.

Less on your wife and more on the kids.  Less on her behavior and more on what you can control - your own choices.

Less on telling the kids stuff and more on hearing their stuff.

Envision how things can be better - what choices you can make - and make it happen.

I gotta say that it matters that the kids speak to being afraid of you... . and don't mention being afraid of your wife. You will do best with your kids by validating what they feel and what they say. (And you have good advice already on that count)

But just so we understand the situation, let me re-ask Matt's question: In these nighttime shouting incidents, what was your wife doing while you were shouting? Was she shouting too?

Love it... .

This is exactly the kind of help I was looking for.

Something like this... . I can pull this off. 

It slows things down a bit... . and gets away from he said... she said... .

Allows kids time to process

Sure thing...

Nighttime shouting.

I'm not one that uses always... and never... . and 100% lightly... . but I can guarantee you that I NEVER woke my wife up to shout, argue or any of that.  Sorry to be a bit graphic... . but sometimes I would be interested in sex... . most of the time it happened.  Sometimes she would be interested in a middle of the night quicky... . almost always obliged.  I NEVER complained about that.  Being a bit tired in the morning... . but with a smile on your face and spring in your step due to some middle of the night bonus sex was a good thing.

But... being woken up to talk about the "tricky women" (exact quote), some whore that I was wanting, why I lied about there being a burger king in a certain town (there actually was a burger king there... . I eventually proved it), and on and on... . why I hated her... . that was NEVER initiated by me.

So yes she would be loud and there were times I honestly didn't care... . I knew that I could be louder... . I was... . and usually after a while that would end it... . she would leave room or just hush.

So there would be times at the end of the incidents where I was still shouting and she was not.  I'm sure some of the times I said nasty things while shouting... . names... . or said that hated her mouth... . or the things she said.

Hopefully that answered enough.  I shouldn't have reacted that way... . and now I know better.  What's done is done.  I didn't know... . what I didn't know.  etc etc.

There also is another connection her to PTSD.  The medication I take lowers blood pressure... . it actually is a blood pressure medication.  They just noticed that it reduces hyperarousal and nightmares.  Prazosin... . really neat and effective drug. 

But... . it reduces blood pressure.  So... I've had to train myself to get up slow in the morning.  Sit up on side of bed... . wait a few seconds.  Stand up... . wait a few second... . just to make sure everything catches up and heart and blood pressure don't spike quickly.  This is known side effect... . you just have to get used to it.

But... . when you get woken up suddenly to talk about tricky women... . she's upset and you hop out of bed to get away from here... . then your pressures start flopping around.  1.  your panicked because you just got jerked out of sleep.  2.  your panicked because your body feels weird because pressures are jumping all over the place.  3.  Your panicked because of PTSD response predisposes you to this.

You see where this is going... . there is a panic response there for a while where it is tough to figure out if I don't care... . I'm not in control... . or if I don't care if I am in control.  I just want to be asleep and not feeling that way.

Bad stuff all around.  It was scary for me... and I can imagine it was scary for anyone to listen to. In MC I would complain... . she would claim that it had happened... . but that it was months ago and would never happen again.  I would then correct and say something like "what about 2 nights ago"... . and what about the previous promises... . then she would get pissed that I contradicted her.

My pastor (the MC) always seemed to think I was overdoing the emphasis on the nighttime wakeup thing.  It was tough not being believed.  Another reason I'm now big on making recordings.  When I go to sleep I put phone next to my bed and put it on a mode where it will only record if there is noise to hear.

And... . as you can tell from how long I rambled on about this... . this is probably the biggest BPD behavior that really made life unbearable.

Because then it set you up for failure for the next days allegations.  So... when I have been knocking down 8 hours of sleep regularly... . and I get asked about some whore... . it was bothersome but wouldn't trigger me.  If I was in a feisty mood I might start asking about which one... asking about physical features... . "the pretty one with big xxxx?"  sort of an attempt to beat back the attacks.  Note... long time ago... I know this was wrong tactic

But... . if my sleep numbers had a 7 day average of about 4 hours (my sleep machine records this... the averages)... . a question about a whore could devastate me... might shout back at her in daytime... . even if I was smart enough to exit the scene (which I did sometimes)... . I would still be all twisted up in addition to being dog tired.

That was a dark time of my life... . never again.

So I have a story I've never told here.  (A big relief for FD and LnL.  They might have heard a few of my stories just one too many times... . )

I was home, downstairs, and the kids were upstairs.  I saw a scorpion - not a very unusual thing where we lived.  They can be pretty dangerous.  I was barefoot.  So I went to the kitchen and got a big glass bowl to put over it, while I figured out what to do.  But when I got back it was gone.  I looked everywhere but couldn't find it.

About that time, my wife got home, and the kids came downstairs.  I wanted to tell them to be careful - put on shoes - but not to scare them.  So I told the story in a funny way - I said the scorpion chased me into the kitchen and I stood on a chair to get away from it.  They laughed, and then I told them, "But it might still be here so let's all put on shoes to make sure, and then when you guys go to bed you'll be upstairs and the scorpion can't climb stairs."  (Not actually true but the best I could do.)

My wife started in on me, in front of the kids, blaming me for the whole thing - somehow it was my fault there was a scorpion.  I wasn't the one who had done my best to catch it, I was at fault.  She went on and on and on.  Finally I had had enough, so I cleverly retorted, "Shut up!".  But she kept on, so I yelled louder - "SHUT UP!" - so loud it drowned her out.  When she started in again, as soon as she opened her mouth, I yelled SHUT UP so loud she couldn't say anything.  Finally she shut up.  Then I turned to the kids and talked about something completely unrelated... .

This wasn't good.  Yelling wasn't a good solution to the problem.  Actually, it worked - it interrupted her raging - but from the kids' point of view, it wasn't a good thing.

Looking back, I'm not proud of how I handled it, but in the moment, I couldn't think of another way to deal with it, and I just could not put up with any more of her mouth.  The key is that I (eventually) took steps to make sure it never happened again.  For me, those steps were to not be around her any more.  I truly believe that the only way I could prevent more problems - and bigger problems - was to never be around her, without a non-family adult third party present.  I believe that her behavior left me only bad options, and that her behavior would not have changed as long as I remained in the relationship, unless she got treatment.

For you, I think it's important to take responsibility for what you did, and also to forgive yourself for mistakes you made under circumstances you should never have had to deal with.

I think it's important for you to decide what is your truth, and tell that consistently to the kids.

Maybe your truth is, "I went away to serve my country and I'm proud of what I did over there.  Some things that happened didn't hurt my body but they made it hard for me to deal with stress.  So when your mom woke me up in the middle of the night it was hard for me to deal with that and I yelled.  I'm sorry for that and I'm not going to let it happen again.  I'm going to talk more with your mom and maybe she will get help so she won't want to wake me up at night - it's OK if you guys need to wake me up for something but not to say something mean to me - and if we can figure all that out we might get back together, or if not we'll be your mom and dad but we might not live together."

Something like that - your truth not anybody else's - as clear and as focused on the kids as possible.

 

Maybe your truth is, "I went away to serve my country and I'm proud of what I did over there.  Some things that happened didn't hurt my body but they made it hard for me to deal with stress.  So when your mom woke me up in the middle of the night it was hard for me to deal with that and I yelled.  I'm sorry for that and I'm not going to let it happen again.  I'm going to talk more with your mom and maybe she will get help so she won't want to wake me up at night - it's OK if you guys need to wake me up for something but not to say something mean to me - and if we can figure all that out we might get back together, or if not we'll be your mom and dad but we might not live together."

Something like that - your truth not anybody else's - as clear and as focused on the kids as possible.[/quote]
That's very good advice... . I'll keep that in my hip pocket... .

Direct and to the point.  And... . it is truthful... .

 

So... . I sometimes still chuckle and shake my head and how many of us have similar experiences.

Another Naval Aviator buddy of mine (who got sole custody from nutso wife... . she had mulitple diagnosis)... . said it best several weeks ago when I called him.  I think this was before the spanking incident... . but I can't remember for sure.

Anyway... . he kinda laughed and said there must be a secret manual that only the "bat sh#t crazy b$tches" get access to... . because they all do the same things.  Sometimes I wonder... .

Oh by the way... . he was same guy that was straight up about saying he didn't "prove" anything about his wife... . he said your job is to shine the light consistently... . they will provide the ammo... . don't worry.

Hopefully didn't offend anyone too bad... . sometimes Naval Aviators can be a bit "frank and direct" with each other... .   |iiii

I dunno... . someone must've translated that manual for guys. 

I'm in a mood to type... so I'll keep going on something else that I thought of.  About the best way to describe PTSD to another service person... to put it in the right perspective

So... I had the pleasure of being in command for two tours.  I tell you what... . America produces some fine men and women... . everyone should be proud of that.  The things they get asked to do... . hard stuff... .

None of them bat an eye at getting care for a wound that they can see.  So... . get shot or some shrapnel... . they will follow doctors orders exactly on how to care for that and get themselves back in fighting shape.  

Far to many of them still see a "stigma" about PTSD or mental issues.  Sometimes the system reinforces that by telling pilots they can't fly or keeping guys off the front line for a while if they fess up to stress... . nightmares... whatever.  So... . many guys "stuff it" and keep going... . and further exacerbate their (mental) wound.

Anyway... . I spent lots of time talking to my guys about proper (mental) wound care.  Some heeded the advice... . sadly some didn't.  

But... I believe... . the best way to approach this with someone is to explain, while nodding your head yes, that if you were wounded by being shot you would obviously seek care... . so why should a (mental) wound be any different.  There was no weakness on your part in getting hit with a bullet... . and none on your part for having PTSD.

Anyway... . my two cents worth.

:) *)

Guys are much worse... . they only read half the manual and assume they can just figure the rest out... .

|iiii

:)

In all honesty -- it's kinda eerie to read about the same behaviors in both genders, really makes you see how much of this is mental illness. The biggest difference I can see (at least from the legal side) is how male/female biases play out in court. My ex never made DV false allegations, or rape allegations, or allegations of child molestation. His allegations were focused mostly on kidnapping, theft, trespassing, perjury, infidelity, conspiracy. I'm probably forgetting some. The typical allegations made against men have worse consequences even when they the court finds them unfounded.

Looking around at the train wreck this has all been, though, it's not a picnic for either gender. 

This experience has certainly changed the "lenses" that I look at the world with.

I know probably see PDs in more places than they really are... . or at least I am very tuned in to the "traits" that you need to look for.

It also does help me have compassion for my uBPDw... . and others affected by this... . because I can imagine what it must be like to try to make the crazy emotions fit reality... . or vice versa.

I think this is one of the most difficult and important things to learn:  how to protect yourself and manage the situation and at the same time recognize that the person with BPD didn't choose it... .

BPD is linked with strong feelings of abandonment in early life.

My ex's mother died when she was a baby, and nobody has ever told her how that happened or why the cause of death was kept secret.

Her father drank a lot, and sent his daughters to live with relatives in another state.  They were a different race, and they treated these young girls well, but as guests;  the girls never knew why they were sent there or if they would go back sometime.  I'm sure my ex felt a lot of strong emotions she couldn't understand.

She didn't choose any of that, and she didn't choose to have BPD or the other problems she has.  (About half of people with BPD have some "co-morbidity" - another psychological disorder too.)

She is responsible for how she deals with it, and it's her choice not to get treatment.  But I realize that would be a very difficult thing to accept;  in effect she would be giving up who she is, to become someone else.  A kind of slow death of her current personality.

I can understand all that, and still do what I can to protect myself and my kids.  That's the challenge... .

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