Meeting with DSS investigator this Wed afternoon

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I am going to try and ask her tomorrow if there is anything I need to bring or be prepared for. 

I have no idea what they will ask or want to know.


Anyone have advice or been through this before. 

You can reference some of my previous posts to see some of the fuller story about why this is going on.

[formflier]

I am going to try and ask her tomorrow if there is anything I need to bring or be prepared for. 

I have no idea what they will ask or want to know.


Anyone have advice or been through this before. 

You can reference some of my previous posts to see some of the fuller story about why this is going on.

[ForeverDad]

What are the issues to be discussed?  Her physical punishments?  The claims each parent is making about the other?


Perhaps they may wonder what caused this conflict to erupt after being in a relationship for so long.

Partly this is about her raging while administering punishments.  She's probably denying doing anything wrong, your recording should support your concern that she was in an out-of-control rage when trying to punish the children.  Since physical punishment isn't frowned upon in your state, perhaps you should focus on how out-of-control she was.  Maybe compare it to a driver with road rage.

Partly this is about you and why the children would say you're the one to be feared.  The recording of her improperly coaching the children should help.  "Your father's trying to take you away from me... . "  The only good coaching is to ask them to tell the truth.  You can state that the issues are far deeper than they appear on the surface, that the children were stating only what they felt safe to say.  State you want the children all in counseling so that they can get objective and informed professional support but are concerned your spouse will obstruct your efforts.  Can't hurt to ask that part of their report focus on the children and their need for counseling.

Partly this is about you and why only now did this come to their attention.  You can honestly state it has been difficult for a long time, that you tried to 'manage' it as best you could but that you're not a mental health professional and only recently started working on your boundaries for proper and respectful behavior and this may have in part been why she has been Overreacting and wrongly trying to Shift Blame onto you.  (We call it an 'extinction burst' here.)

[Waddams]

Most professionals that deal with abuse are familiar with the Duluth Model of DV Intervention.  Google ":)uluth Model domestic violence".  Specifically print out the power and control and then also the equality wheels.  It will help give you a framework within which to describe her abusive behaviors (from the power and control wheel) as well as something to refer to in describing how you are trying to shift the dynamic (the equality wheel).

Abusers always escalate at first when challenged.  They fear losing their control, and so they intensify their abusive behavior to try to regain control.  That behavior has worked in the past, so they resort to it in stronger ways out of fear.  I think you simply start by stating and describing her history of behavior towards you and the kids and how you have recently started to try to stop the cycle.  You can use the terminology on the wheels to help you describe it all.  Then, you can describe how she's escalating and conspiring with the kids and lord knows who else to make you out to be the bad guy, instead of her.  It probably started as literally blackmail she was going to use to try to keep you line (things like I'll figure out a way to get you fired, tell everyone this or that, etc.). 

Then you simply state while the physical punishment to the kids might not meet a threshold to for the law in your state to consider anything inappropriate or wrong, it still has hit a threshold for you that is wrong and you still believe it is excessive and abusive based on seeing her in action.  Also, she's become more and more emotionally and mentally controlling and abusive towards you and the kids based on all the things you've described and as supported by the recordings and false accusations she's making.  As a father, you are committed to stopping this situation from getting even worse, and changing the dynamic so the kids and yourself are not abused anymore.

My dad told me once (and looking back on growing up he really did always follow through on this), he never spanked us when he was in the heat of angry emotions.  He always sent us to our rooms.  Now, we might have sat there for a very long time, but when we got spanked, it was always after he'd calmed down.  He'd come in, calmly explain what the infraction was, that we knew the rules, and now he had to follow through on the consequences.  Then, we'd get some strokes with the belt.  He never used his hand because he'd gone on a call as a volunteer EMT once and seen a case where a toddler had broken bones after a hand spanking.  So he used a belt because it wasn't like a blunt, hard instrument and would leave a whelt, but not break anything, as long as used in moderation.  Anyway, after the spanking, he'd always follow up with how much he loved us, then leave the room, and come back a while later for a hug, and let us out.  If any sibling snickered or something, they then got in trouble.  He always said the punishment is done, it's over, time to move on, and the other kids need to keep their mouth's shut as discipline was his purview and not any other kids.  Looking back, the act of love and forgiveness afterwards was probably the most important part of the whole process. 

The out of control rage, whether she's beating anyone or not, is definitely abusive even if it doesn't fit the definition of your state's laws for physical abuse.  It's okay to just plain tell the DSS agent that, and that you no longer want or accept that behavior in your home and you have a goal to ensure your kids are protected from that in the future.

Is your L involved yet?  Could your L attend this meeting with you?  So far your L seems to have been MIA.  If you can't get your L to start coming out of hiding, I'd urge you to strongly consider finding a new L that can be by your side for all this.

[formflier]

First:  Lawyer questions.  He has dealt with this in his family and has sole custody of his kids.  If we really start doing motions and filings... . then he will be in action.

There is a tactical decision here to not "lawyer" first.  She has threatened for years... . I have never threatened... . never will... . I will just do it... . if I believe it needs to be done.

He knows my wife... . somewhat.  And he is pushing hard for a therapeutic resolution... . or more properly stated... . to make sure that all therapeutic options are handled first.  Part of this is to portray myself (rightly so) as wanted to "fix" or heal the situation and not to "lawyer" my wife.  Again... . I know that most likely that is coming. 

So... . I need to let the DSS process work until/if I am convince there are no teeth or it is worthless.  In other words... . if she does not "comply with counselor" and nothing happens then I think it will make sense for me to act.

More later on this... . I'm a bit pressed for time.  To include a chat with my L.

Most professionals that deal with abuse are familiar with the Duluth Model of DV Intervention.  Google ":)uluth Model domestic violence".  Specifically print out the power and control and then also the equality wheels.  It will help give you a framework within which to describe her abusive behaviors (from the power and control wheel) as well as something to refer to in describing how you are trying to shift the dynamic (the equality wheel).

Abusers always escalate at first when challenged.  They fear losing their control, and so they intensify their abusive behavior to try to regain control.  That behavior has worked in the past, so they resort to it in stronger ways out of fear.  I think you simply start by stating and describing her history of behavior towards you and the kids and how you have recently started to try to stop the cycle.  You can use the terminology on the wheels to help you describe it all.  Then, you can describe how she's escalating and conspiring with the kids and lord knows who else to make you out to be the bad guy, instead of her.  It probably started as literally blackmail she was going to use to try to keep you line (things like I'll figure out a way to get you fired, tell everyone this or that, etc.). 

Then you simply state while the physical punishment to the kids might not meet a threshold to for the law in your state to consider anything inappropriate or wrong, it still has hit a threshold for you that is wrong and you still believe it is excessive and abusive based on seeing her in action.  Also, she's become more and more emotionally and mentally controlling and abusive towards you and the kids based on all the things you've described and as supported by the recordings and false accusations she's making.  As a father, you are committed to stopping this situation from getting even worse, and changing the dynamic so the kids and yourself are not abused anymore.

My dad told me once (and looking back on growing up he really did always follow through on this), he never spanked us when he was in the heat of angry emotions.  He always sent us to our rooms.  Now, we might have sat there for a very long time, but when we got spanked, it was always after he'd calmed down.  He'd come in, calmly explain what the infraction was, that we knew the rules, and now he had to follow through on the consequences.  Then, we'd get some strokes with the belt.  He never used his hand because he'd gone on a call as a volunteer EMT once and seen a case where a toddler had broken bones after a hand spanking.  So he used a belt because it wasn't like a blunt, hard instrument and would leave a whelt, but not break anything, as long as used in moderation.  Anyway, after the spanking, he'd always follow up with how much he loved us, then leave the room, and come back a while later for a hug, and let us out.  If any sibling snickered or something, they then got in trouble.  He always said the punishment is done, it's over, time to move on, and the other kids need to keep their mouth's shut as discipline was his purview and not any other kids.  Looking back, the act of love and forgiveness afterwards was probably the most important part of the whole process. 

The out of control rage, whether she's beating anyone or not, is definitely abusive even if it doesn't fit the definition of your state's laws for physical abuse.  It's okay to just plain tell the DSS agent that, and that you no longer want or accept that behavior in your home and you have a goal to ensure your kids are protected from that in the future.

Is your L involved yet?  Could your L attend this meeting with you?  So far your L seems to have been MIA.  If you can't get your L to start coming out of hiding, I'd urge you to strongly consider finding a new L that can be by your side for all this.

[formflier]

The duluth wheels are absolute genius... . organizes and explains it very well.

Once again... . the power of this forum and getting lots of eyes an opinions on a situation... . is huge... . absolutely huge... . thanks so much!

Most professionals that deal with abuse are familiar with the Duluth Model of DV Intervention.  Google ":)uluth Model domestic violence".  Specifically print out the power and control and then also the equality wheels.  It will help give you a framework within which to describe her abusive behaviors (from the power and control wheel) as well as something to refer to in describing how you are trying to shift the dynamic (the equality wheel).

Abusers always escalate at first when challenged.  They fear losing their control, and so they intensify their abusive behavior to try to regain control.  That behavior has worked in the past, so they resort to it in stronger ways out of fear.  I think you simply start by stating and describing her history of behavior towards you and the kids and how you have recently started to try to stop the cycle.  You can use the terminology on the wheels to help you describe it all.  Then, you can describe how she's escalating and conspiring with the kids and lord knows who else to make you out to be the bad guy, instead of her.  It probably started as literally blackmail she was going to use to try to keep you line (things like I'll figure out a way to get you fired, tell everyone this or that, etc.). 

Then you simply state while the physical punishment to the kids might not meet a threshold to for the law in your state to consider anything inappropriate or wrong, it still has hit a threshold for you that is wrong and you still believe it is excessive and abusive based on seeing her in action.  Also, she's become more and more emotionally and mentally controlling and abusive towards you and the kids based on all the things you've described and as supported by the recordings and false accusations she's making.  As a father, you are committed to stopping this situation from getting even worse, and changing the dynamic so the kids and yourself are not abused anymore.

My dad told me once (and looking back on growing up he really did always follow through on this), he never spanked us when he was in the heat of angry emotions.  He always sent us to our rooms.  Now, we might have sat there for a very long time, but when we got spanked, it was always after he'd calmed down.  He'd come in, calmly explain what the infraction was, that we knew the rules, and now he had to follow through on the consequences.  Then, we'd get some strokes with the belt.  He never used his hand because he'd gone on a call as a volunteer EMT once and seen a case where a toddler had broken bones after a hand spanking.  So he used a belt because it wasn't like a blunt, hard instrument and would leave a whelt, but not break anything, as long as used in moderation.  Anyway, after the spanking, he'd always follow up with how much he loved us, then leave the room, and come back a while later for a hug, and let us out.  If any sibling snickered or something, they then got in trouble.  He always said the punishment is done, it's over, time to move on, and the other kids need to keep their mouth's shut as discipline was his purview and not any other kids.  Looking back, the act of love and forgiveness afterwards was probably the most important part of the whole process. 

The out of control rage, whether she's beating anyone or not, is definitely abusive even if it doesn't fit the definition of your state's laws for physical abuse.  It's okay to just plain tell the DSS agent that, and that you no longer want or accept that behavior in your home and you have a goal to ensure your kids are protected from that in the future.

Is your L involved yet?  Could your L attend this meeting with you?  So far your L seems to have been MIA.  If you can't get your L to start coming out of hiding, I'd urge you to strongly consider finding a new L that can be by your side for all this.

[Grey Kitty]

Will your wife or any of your children or anybody else be at this meeting with the DSS investigator?

[formflier]

No... . my impression is that the investigator is coming out to interview everyone... individually.


They made a big deal the first night that we all got to a room together.  Then they took kids out one by one.

The intent is that once the interviews start... . that nobody gets to talk about what else got talked about.

So... . I think on Wed they will talk to my wife individually... . and then each of my kids individually.  And then I am meeting the investigator at a separate location.


I don't think any decisions will be made... . just gathering the facts. 

Then again... . I was wrong before... . so... . we'll see.

Will your wife or any of your children or anybody else be at this meeting with the DSS investigator?

[ForeverDad]

It may be okay to say you're concerned they may have aspects of Stockholm Syndrome where they side with the poorly behaving person either because they've got a distorted bond or because there are fewer consequences in doing so.  That's a syndrome that applies more widely than with hostages in a bank robbery.  In a way they're emotional hostages to at least some extent and being children they can't be expected to know how to counteract emotional pressuring.

See the handout about that on the Articles tab at drjoecarver.com

Article: Love and Stockholm Syndrome: The Mystery of Loving an Abuser

[Waddams]

Coaching the kids and leading them to actively work against and hurt their father is Parental Alienation, pure and simple.  A lot of courts won't recognize PA as a syndrome, but there are hordes of mental health professionals that do recognize the destructive nature of such actions as it relates to impacts to the children.

If you have a chance, look up more information on "Parentification of Children" and "Parental Alienation".  Both are considered emotionally/mentally abusive towards kids by most reputable mental health professionals.  You're recordings will provide some backup, but eventually you'll need an actual therapist (Ph.D level) to evaluate and give expert supporting testimony to make it stick in court or with DSS.

[livednlearned]

So... . I need to let the DSS process work until/if I am convince there are no teeth or it is worthless.  In other words... . if she does not "comply with counselor" and nothing happens then I think it will make sense for me to act.

Formflier, I'm going to push on you here. When people here tell you (repeatedly) that you should be talking to a lawyer, it's really good advice. Whether you get divorced or not, you are now in the system. You should be asking your lawyer bunches of questions right now about the DSS investigation. 

I get that you feel DSS could help you, but right now, it sure seems like they're treating you like the perpetrator. You mentioned not getting your lawyer involved unless you go through with divorce, but if I were in your position, I would want to know exactly how these family investigations could play out if DSS/CPS decides you're the abuser. You have an RO. History of PTSD. Military background. Your kids have said they're afraid of you. DSS didn't show much interest in your recording -- maybe they have good reason based on past experience with audio recordings. I dunno. Right now, job number one is to convince DSS that you aren't the perpetrator. Your lawyer should be in your ear here.

You're kinda in the dog house right now, but you're thinking DSS is going to do a 180 and make your wife attend counseling. If they think you're an abuser, and you start focusing on what's wrong with your wife, that's walking right into the abuser stereotype.

I did a quick look at the screening tools that DSS uses in NC -- there are three that might apply to your situation. One is "improper discipline" and another is "domestic violence." There's another called "emotional abuse." From what you've described, DSS seems more concerned with domestic violence than the other two, even though those are the two you're concerned about.

I'm playing devil's advocate here -- but let's assume they don't listen to the recordings, and the kids repeat that they're afraid of dad. Your wife has had a week to coach them and they corroborate what she says -- that you have a temper. You have an RO, a diagnosis of PTSD, military guy, and you want DSS to "make" your wife go to counseling.

I think you need to really focus on this first, and talk to your lawyer about what happens if DSS determines that Formflier is a perpetrator and requires anger management classes as part of the safety response. What happens if DSS says sign this form -- do you sign? What if you don't sign? If DSS decides DV is involved, does your case get reported to the district attorney? If you have a case that says Formflier has a history of DV, how will that affect divorce + custody? I would also be careful about assuming that if your lawyer ended up with sole custody, that means he's the right lawyer for you. How are your cases the same? How are they different? If anything, you might want to talk to his lawyer, the person who represented him. That's the lawyer to be talking to.

A lot of us walk into situations thinking things are all going to work out. A lot of us have learned that the system is unbelievably broken. You already experienced it by being removed from the home.

My case went in my favor every step of the way, and even so, it felt like being a shark tank. You don't discover how the game is played until you are on the field and by then it's too late. That's why we're here, and people are telling you to talk to your lawyer -- it's good advice!

[formflier]

I'm here... . just really busy.  Yes have had contact with L.  Will give report later.

Meeting my VA psychologist in a bit to review my record... make sure where I think I stand... . is where I really stand.

DSS this afternoon. 

There is a strategy that is coming together that says I've "pulled a lever" with the DSS thing... . and things will change.  While I am ready for her to "do things"... . and will obviously respond... . I need to see how the DSS lever pull plays out.

I hope to get a better vibe after meeting with the case worker/investigator.

Thanks for all the help and pushing... . keep it coming.

I'm reading... . just haven't been able to do thoughtful responses like I would like to.

So... . I need to let the DSS process work until/if I am convince there are no teeth or it is worthless.  In other words... . if she does not "comply with counselor" and nothing happens then I think it will make sense for me to act.

Formflier, I'm going to push on you here. When people here tell you (repeatedly) that you should be talking to a lawyer, it's really good advice. Whether you get divorced or not, you are now in the system. You should be asking your lawyer bunches of questions right now about the DSS investigation. 

I get that you feel DSS could help you, but right now, it sure seems like they're treating you like the perpetrator. You mentioned not getting your lawyer involved unless you go through with divorce, but if I were in your position, I would want to know exactly how these family investigations could play out if DSS/CPS decides you're the abuser. You have an RO. History of PTSD. Military background. Your kids have said they're afraid of you. DSS didn't show much interest in your recording -- maybe they have good reason based on past experience with audio recordings. I dunno. Right now, job number one is to convince DSS that you aren't the perpetrator. Your lawyer should be in your ear here.

You're kinda in the dog house right now, but you're thinking DSS is going to do a 180 and make your wife attend counseling. If they think you're an abuser, and you start focusing on what's wrong with your wife, that's walking right into the abuser stereotype.

I did a quick look at the screening tools that DSS uses in NC -- there are three that might apply to your situation. One is "improper discipline" and another is "domestic violence." There's another called "emotional abuse." From what you've described, DSS seems more concerned with domestic violence than the other two, even though those are the two you're concerned about.

I'm playing devil's advocate here -- but let's assume they don't listen to the recordings, and the kids repeat that they're afraid of dad. Your wife has had a week to coach them and they corroborate what she says -- that you have a temper. You have an RO, a diagnosis of PTSD, military guy, and you want DSS to "make" your wife go to counseling.

I think you need to really focus on this first, and talk to your lawyer about what happens if DSS determines that Formflier is a perpetrator and requires anger management classes as part of the safety response. What happens if DSS says sign this form -- do you sign? What if you don't sign? If DSS decides DV is involved, does your case get reported to the district attorney? If you have a case that says Formflier has a history of DV, how will that affect divorce + custody? I would also be careful about assuming that if your lawyer ended up with sole custody, that means he's the right lawyer for you. How are your cases the same? How are they different? If anything, you might want to talk to his lawyer, the person who represented him. That's the lawyer to be talking to.

A lot of us walk into situations thinking things are all going to work out. A lot of us have learned that the system is unbelievably broken. You already experienced it by being removed from the home.

My case went in my favor every step of the way, and even so, it felt like being a shark tank. You don't discover how the game is played until you are on the field and by then it's too late. That's why we're here, and people are telling you to talk to your lawyer -- it's good advice!

[ForeverDad]

Glad to hear it's not you alone going up against the system/DSS.

Be careful if you come under pressure to agree or sign to restrictive conditions.  They will probably want to get an "agreement" rather than make an order.  I get a feeling that if it's not reasonable then you shouldn't "agree" to something onerous and that puts you at an extreme disadvantage.  You can abide by an order but I suggest you don't "agree" if it is bad.  My guts talking.

You haven't seen the children since Wednesday a week ago apparently, a huge change for a parent whose seen and parented his children daily.  But I doubt DSS will spill any tears over your situation, after all, you're a man, you can live just fine with infrequent contact, just have deep pockets.

Of course, always phrase it from the children's viewpoint.  Their time with you, rather than your time with them.  They need you, rather than you need them.

In my case, my now-ex and I separated and had mutual TPOs against each other and when they were dismissed a few months later the ordered schedule vanished too.  At that time she had possession of our preschooler and she immediately blocked all father-child contact, even phone calls.  Meanwhile, I prepared and filed for divorce and waited for the initial hearing to set (another) temp order.  In all, it was over 3 months since I had time with my son when I got into court.  The magistrate even confirmed it with her.  So he said, "I'll fix this", ordered the same father-gets-alternate-weekends order we had before and did not offer any make-up time at all for the 3 blocked months.  In fact, ex had the temerity to ask for a week's delay but the so very stern (not!) magistrate said he would only grant her a one day delay.  So my 3 day reunion weekend - after blocking for 3 months - was less reduced to than two days. :'(

[formflier]

Yeah... . the system is frustrating... .

A little time for a quick update.

Chatted with lawyer... . he is familiar with the differences in both counties dss "styles".  He explained the tact to take to focus on wife's "unexplained irritability" and to focus on the need for the system to help explain that. 

As for kids fearing me... . we have recordings of coaching.  And if they start snooping in my record they will find a guy that has acknowledged issues and has stepped up to work on them. 

The crazy picture of this guy that refuses meds and has out of control PTSD doesn't exist in any record.   That was the gist of the meeting with the psychologist.  There are some reports I need to read and may have some follow up questions about... . but the big picture is a guy that is being responsible with his "issues".


As far as signing or doing any of that... . I will take docs and have reviewed by lawyer.  There should be no reason for me to "sign right now... . or else".  I won't do that. 

The investigator (dss) has said that today is about gathering data (not her exact words)... . but no like she will make a decision and bolt.

One thing (among many) that I would like advice on.  If they ask for releases to talk to counselors... . I am considering giving them a conditional release that says... . I'm happy for you to talk to marriage counselor x... . as long as Mrs form signs permission as well. 

Otherwise... . the counselors have said they would only talk about me... . and nobody else.

Thoughts on that? 

Been a busy... . but... productive day.

DSS is interviewing kids now.  I have been in text contact to see if I can move my interview up... . she said she would text when done chatting with my kids.

Separation from kids:  Unfortunately... . with the Navy... . I've had practice.  This is a bit different... . but still... . it's not completely foreign to me.  So far I'm holding up OK.

Glad to hear it's not you alone going up against the system/DSS.

Be careful if you come under pressure to agree or sign to restrictive conditions.  They will probably want to get an "agreement" rather than make an order.  I get a feeling that if it's not reasonable then you shouldn't "agree" to something onerous and that puts you at an extreme disadvantage.  You can abide by an order but I suggest you don't "agree" if it is bad.  My guts talking.

You haven't seen the children since Wednesday a week ago apparently, a huge change for a parent whose seen and parented his children daily.  But I doubt DSS will spill any tears over your situation, after all, you're a man, you can live just fine with infrequent contact, just have deep pockets.

Of course, always phrase it from the children's viewpoint.  Their time with you, rather than your time with them.  They need you, rather than you need them.

In my case, my now-ex and I separated and had mutual TPOs against each other and when they were dismissed a few months later the ordered schedule vanished too.  At that time she had possession of our preschooler and she immediately blocked all father-child contact, even phone calls.  Meanwhile, I prepared and filed for divorce and waited for the initial hearing to set (another) temp order.  In all, it was over 3 months since I had time with my son when I got into court.  The magistrate even confirmed it with her.  So he said, "I'll fix this", ordered the same father-gets-alternate-weekends order we had before and did not offer any make-up time at all for the 3 blocked months.  In fact, ex had the temerity to ask for a week's delay but the so very stern (not!) magistrate said he would only grant her a one day delay.  So my 3 day reunion weekend - after blocking for 3 months - was less reduced to than two days. :'(

[ForeverDad]

Separation from kids:  Unfortunately... . with the Navy... . I've had practice.  This is a bit different... . but still... . it's not completely foreign to me.  So far I'm holding up OK.

But wasn't that a least a couple years ago?  Well, that's not the current 'Normal'.  The situation now is different from back then.  Yes, you have the personal strength to handle absence, but this is about the children in the here and now.  They are used to seeing you daily.  That is the historical pattern for the last few years.  That's what means the most.  Going too far back is fishing and/or stale and should not be seen as basis to ignore the more recent history/years.

Remember, sometimes we are too fair and shortchange ourselves.  Beware of being too self-deprecating.  In good times that's a wonderful trait.  In high conflict cases, that is a self-sabotaging trait.

[formflier]

Yep... understand the point.  I was speaking from my personal point of view that I have a place to go to for this.

Also understand the point about not being nice or accommodating.

One nuance here is that she is a bit "trapped".  I am considering how... if ever I do this... . but I may have to point this out.

We live in small county and small town.  Right now this is sort of private.  If we exit the DSS system and she tries to play keep away... . then she is going to be standing against "my" hometown. 

I was born and raised here... . she was not.  Lawyer says slam dunk if she runs with kids they can be back in 10 days if he pushes it.

Most people here are surprised to hear there are issues... . the few that I have told.

I generally hate do this "or else deals"... . I just don't do them... . but if something like that comes up... . I may have to.

Separation from kids:  Unfortunately... . with the Navy... . I've had practice.  This is a bit different... . but still... . it's not completely foreign to me.  So far I'm holding up OK.

But wasn't that a least a couple years ago?  Well, that's not the current 'Normal'.  The situation now is different from back then.  Yes, you have the personal strength to handle absence, but this is about the children in the here and now.  They are used to seeing you daily.  That is the historical pattern for the last few years.  That's what means the most.  Going too far back is fishing and/or stale and should not be seen as basis to ignore the more recent history/years.

Remember, sometimes we are too fair and shortchange ourselves.  Beware of that.  In good times that's a wonderful trait.  In high conflict cases, that is a self-sabotaging trait.

[ForeverDad]

I generally hate do this "or else deals"... . I just don't do them... . but if something like that comes up... . I may have to.

I too avoided doing anything to rock the boat, even though the boat was already being seriously rocked.  Not until I had No Other Choice.  At that point I had to hope it was not too late to stand up for myself and my child, my future and my child's future.

[Grey Kitty]

One nuance here is that she is a bit "trapped".  I am considering how... if ever I do this... . but I may have to point this out.

We live in small county and small town.  Right now this is sort of private.  If we exit the DSS system and she tries to play keep away... . then she is going to be standing against "my" hometown. 

I was born and raised here... . she was not.  Lawyer says slam dunk if she runs with kids they can be back in 10 days if he pushes it.

Most people here are surprised to hear there are issues... . the few that I have told.

I generally hate do this "or else deals"... . I just don't do them... . but if something like that comes up... . I may have to.

I think that speaking of that sort of "deal" is a no-win move on your part. Consider:

If she already realizes the situation, she's doing a good job of ignoring it--pointing it out won't change things.

If she doesn't realize the situation, and she believes you, it sounds like a threat, and she's likely to react badly.

If she doesn't believe you, it still isn't going to influence her in a good direction.

If somebody's going to tell her about the situation that way, it shouldn't be you. Hopefully not even your lawyer.

... . and more importantly, this thread is about DSS, and if they get a report of you saying anything of the sort, it will sound like you are threatening her--makes you look very bad!

[livednlearned]

As far as signing or doing any of that... . I will take docs and have reviewed by lawyer.  There should be no reason for me to "sign right now... . or else".  I won't do that. 

The investigator (dss) has said that today is about gathering data (not her exact words)... . but no like she will make a decision and bolt.

I hope things went ok for you. Good to hear the plan was for data gathering. Did they listen to the recording as part of data gathering?

One thing (among many) that I would like advice on.  If they ask for releases to talk to counselors... . I am considering giving them a conditional release that says... . I'm happy for you to talk to marriage counselor x... . as long as Mrs form signs permission as well. 

Otherwise... . the counselors have said they would only talk about me... . and nobody else.

Thoughts on that? 

I don't know that anyone can answer that for you, can they? It depends on how the MC views you, if the MC is aware that your wife is BPD. Showing transparency probably falls under the guise of "dad is open, willing to discuss his stuff, is working on things. Mom, not so much."

But if you think the MC in any way thought you were controlling, domineering, etc., then maybe it wouldn't play out so well for you with DSS.

I don't think it would reflect badly on you to say, please talk to MC if wife gives permission too.

[formflier]

The DSS interview went well...

I will fill in details later... .

As far as signing or doing any of that... . I will take docs and have reviewed by lawyer.  There should be no reason for me to "sign right now... . or else".  I won't do that. 

The investigator (dss) has said that today is about gathering data (not her exact words)... . but no like she will make a decision and bolt.

I hope things went ok for you. Good to hear the plan was for data gathering. Did they listen to the recording as part of data gathering?

One thing (among many) that I would like advice on.  If they ask for releases to talk to counselors... . I am considering giving them a conditional release that says... . I'm happy for you to talk to marriage counselor x... . as long as Mrs form signs permission as well. 

Otherwise... . the counselors have said they would only talk about me... . and nobody else.

Thoughts on that? 

I don't know that anyone can answer that for you, can they? It depends on how the MC views you, if the MC is aware that your wife is BPD. Showing transparency probably falls under the guise of "dad is open, willing to discuss his stuff, is working on things. Mom, not so much."

But if you think the MC in any way thought you were controlling, domineering, etc., then maybe it wouldn't play out so well for you with DSS.

I don't think it would reflect badly on you to say, please talk to MC if wife gives permission too.

[formflier]

Overall good chat.  I felt like I got to tell my story and I think I have filled in some gaps in my knowledge... . and I can see the area that DSS is looking at now and going ?

So... the good news is that I went last... . so I got info from what wife and kids said to some things.

Wife gave accurate list of counselors... . and has signed consent.  I saw those and happily signed mine.

The "restrictions" or safety plan has been upgraded to where I can do social things with kids or have them over to other family houses.

Right now they just don't want me alone in my own home with them.

One of the questions hanging out there... . that I could see the investigator wrestling with is that why are the kids fearful of dad... . when dad has quit doing corporal punishment... . and mom is the one doing the spanking... . and the kids are saying that spanking is not a big deal.

No allegation that I have hit. 

I'm thinking through answers to this based on what I heard... . or was asked.  Will be back to that later.

Oh... and since there were no marks... . that takes the corporal punishment thing off the list.  That seems to be a hard and fast rule. 

I hope this makes sense... . I'm a bit tired. 

Ask questions... I'll try to clean up responses in the morning sometime.




My uBPDw has an evaluation session tomorrow with the T that she is supposed to keep going to and "comply" with.  This is very good that is it scheduled now.

[Waddams]

One of the questions hanging out there... . that I could see the investigator wrestling with is that why are the kids fearful of dad... . when dad has quit doing corporal punishment... . and mom is the one doing the spanking... . and the kids are saying that spanking is not a big deal

Did you play the recordings of mom coaching them?  Mom is manipulating things to cause this situation.  She's coaching them, as well as her actions might really be causing the kids to be afraid when there is no real need/justification.

[ForeverDad]

About parental alienation - therapists do accept that the alienation attempts do happen and that the children are impacted.  I believe the difficulty is about "Parental Alienation Syndrome" (PAS), a description dating back to 1985, a proposed disorder in which a child, on an ongoing basis, belittles and insults one parent without justification, due to a combination of factors, including indoctrination by the other parent (almost exclusively as part of a child custody dispute) and the child's own attempts to denigrate the target parent.  Courts, which already favor documented behaviors and actions over diagnostic labels, are reluctant to reference it because it hadn't been embraced in the DSM.  However, the DSM does have a closely related diagnostic category of parent-child relational problem which includes "hostility toward or scapegoating of the other (parent)"

Teaching children to hate the ex - Article by Barbara Kay, May 23, 2013, National Post

The great Victorian novelist Charles Dickens was doubly traumatized in early youth by a feckless father and a harsh social system with scant appreciation for children’s tender psyches.

Dickens' soul-searing experience at age 12 in a shoe-blacking factory provided a cornucopia of creative inspiration for his novels, into which he decanted much empathy for his fictional child alter-egos. Yet as Robert Gottlieb writes in his new book, "Great Expectations: The Sons and Daughters of Charles Dickens," the author could be cruel in his personal life. And those closest to him carried their own scars as a result.

When Dickens’s last child, youngest of a large brood, was six years old, Dickens, who’d fallen in love with the actress Ellen Ternan, expelled his wife Catherine from his life, and demanded that his children do the same. He justified his brutality against his wife with claims that Catherine was an unloving mother – not true – and that the children did not love her – a much more pernicious lie.

This grotesque emotional behaviour — inciting one’s children to hate their other parent — is a form of alienation that did not have a name in 1850. But today, it is well understood by experts, as well as those unlucky enough to be a "target parent" like Catherine Dickens. The term used to describe the phenomenon, as it affects children, is parental alienation syndrome (PAS).

Thanks to the fifth edition of the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostical and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), launched last week, PAS is now almost logged in as an official disorder. I say "almost" because those exact words are not in the DSM-5 (this was a deliberate and much-discussed decision). However, the new broader category of "child psychological abuse" is defined as "non-accidental verbal or symbolic acts by a child’s parent or caregiver that result, or have reasonable potential to result, in significant psychological harm to the child."

Under this rubric, one finds in a description of “parent-child relational problem” symptoms that all but link hands and sing out PAS. For example, the child’s perception of an alienated parent "may include negative attributions of the other’s intentions, hostility toward or scapegoating of the other, and unwarranted feelings of estrangement."

PAS was coined by the late psychologist Richard Gardner in 1985. It refers to a "disturbance in which children are obsessed with deprecation and criticism of a parent – deprecation that is unjustified and/or exaggerated."

PAS has nothing in common with the moderate alienation that can accompany any high-conflict divorce ("Can’t your father ever pick you up on time?". Rather, the PAS child is subjected to a calculated and baseless campaign of incitement to hatred of the target parent. Alienating parents are so consumed with anger at the target parent that their anger always trumps the child’s mental well-being.

A child must have extraordinary courage and strength of character to resist such hate propaganda. As Gottlieb notes of Dickens: “Anyone who tried to reason with [the author], or to defend [his wife] Catherine, was expelled into utter darkness, never to be forgiven.”

In more modern times, former model and journalist Pamela Richardson’s 2006 book, "A Kidnapped Mind," paints a harrowing portrait of psychological deterioration in her alienated son Dash who, following a remorseless, decade-long campaign by his father to "disappear" her from the boy’s life, jumped off Vancouver’s Granville Street bridge in 2001.

I spoke with Vanderbilt University’s Emeritus professor of psychiatry Bill Bernet, who specializes in divorce and custody effects on children, and who was the leading advocate for PAS’s inclusion in the DSM. He told me: "Even though it does not go quite as far as we’d hoped, I’m very happy that this new terminology is in the DSM-5."

Professor Bernet leads the Parental Alienation Study Group, whose members are dedicated to educating clinicians, social workers and other frontline professionals, so that they will recognize the disorder by its invariable features and develop strategies for combatting it. The trickledown effect of the DSM inclusion will hopefully play out in family court, with judges acquiring familiarity with the syndrome and moving swiftly to protect the child from the alienating parent.

Most children will continue to love their parents in spite of PAS abuse. Indeed, it is extraordinarily difficult to stop a child from loving a parent. Those who do stop are usually ashamed to admit it. A child who is proud to hate a parent is likely a PAS-afflicted child.

If the Victorians had known what we know today, Dickens might not have gotten away with the callous behaviour his long-suffering wife and children did nothing to deserve. Let us hope enlightenment on this disorder helps consign PAS to the dustbin of history.

[formflier]

Yes... . she listened to all them and acknowledged that there was some there.

One of the things that several kids consistently talked about... . and where "some" of the fear came from was listening to us argue at night for years.  I'm sure I'm still minimizing how much that happened.

Back in the day... . when she was really bad about waking me up to talk about all kinds of crazy theories... . accusations... . and what not... . I had the attitude for a while that if you are going to wake me up to have it out... . let's have it out. 

Really bad... . I now know that I fed the cycle.  I can't undo what the kids have heard... . and it was scary to me.  I can only imagine what it was like to my kids listening to that while they are trying to get sleep.

So... I'm not saying there is no coaching... . there was.  But I now understand a little more about this "fear" that the kids reported.

I have a visit with my T today.  I'm sure that will be a hot topic.

Fellas... . I am still convinced that I did the right thing.  I knew for a fact that after I made the report... . things would never been the same in my family... . ever again.

I still don't know what the future holds... . but I'm 100% solid that I ain't going back to what was.

Oh... . and sorry I've been a bit sparse the last few days.  Incredibly busy... . trying to finish up the budget.  It's close.

One of the questions hanging out there... . that I could see the investigator wrestling with is that why are the kids fearful of dad... . when dad has quit doing corporal punishment... . and mom is the one doing the spanking... . and the kids are saying that spanking is not a big deal

Did you play the recordings of mom coaching them?  Mom is manipulating things to cause this situation.  She's coaching them, as well as her actions might really be causing the kids to be afraid when there is no real need/justification.

[livednlearned]

Did the DSS investigator make it clear what happens next?

DSS seems to be more involved in what occurs between the parents. That's different from how family courts view things, in my experience.

Something else you might want to look at is therapeutic separation, though it's a toss up if this is wise of not given your situation. Might want to start a thread getting feedback about how therapeutic separation might play out for you: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=141686.0

I mention it because you're already living separately, and you're not entirely ready to press the D button. Therapeutic separation might give you some structure going forward, and your MC might be able to counsel you how it works.

[formflier]

I saw that thread... . and have had similar thoughts about the separation thing.


We have a marriage counseling session next week.  Next Wed I think.

That will be interesting.  I need to think that through and prepare.

In other news... . just had good long meeting with my lawyer in my office.   Reviewed everything that has happened and we feel good about where we are sitting.

More later.

Did the DSS investigator make it clear what happens next?

DSS seems to be more involved in what occurs between the parents. That's different from how family courts view things, in my experience.

Something else you might want to look at is therapeutic separation, though it's a toss up if this is wise of not given your situation. Might want to start a thread getting feedback about how therapeutic separation might play out for you: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=141686.0

I mention it because you're already living separately, and you're not entirely ready to press the D button. Therapeutic separation might give you some structure going forward, and your MC might be able to counsel you how it works.

[catnap]

Forgive me if I missed it, but any mention by DSS about separate counseling for the children?  IMO, it would be a very good thing for the kids to be able to talk to someone to work through things and learn tools for dealing with Mom.  I do get that there is some mending the fences with you that needs to happen, but relating to a normal parent vs a disordered one is a whole different ballgame. 

[formflier]

Yeah... . so if you look back several threads started by me... . you will see one about an "ambush" family counseling.  Turned into... . all about me.

Well... . I think that guy is actually pretty solid.  40+ years experience... . PHD... . he is going to be the family counselor for the kids.  Before he gets into that he is going to have several individual... . and continuing sessions with both parents... . me an uBPDw. 

Today was her first session. 

His theory is that whatever is going on with kids is a result of the parents conflict and he needs to more fully understand... . and hopefully lessen that conflict to start helping the kids.  He will be getting the DSS investigators notes and reports on all the kids... .

We had long talk about uBPDw being a possible borderline.  He has experience... . and said he would obviously have to come to his own conclusions.

Also has lots of experience with PTSD.

Some very cautious optimism that we have a good thing here.

But... . you exactly have the right idea... that the kids need tools to deal with their parents... . and he has said as much... . that is why he needs to really understand each parent.


More thoughts later on all this. 

Forgive me if I missed it, but any mention by DSS about separate counseling for the children?  IMO, it would be a very good thing for the kids to be able to talk to someone to work through things and learn tools for dealing with Mom.  I do get that there is some mending the fences with you that needs to happen, but relating to a normal parent vs a disordered one is a whole different ballgame. 

[formflier]

 

Good news to report. 

Family was together last night for a parade/festival thing in one of the small towns in this county. 

It was good to see and play with all the kids.

No bad stuff was brought up.

We are going to meet up at another public event, with kids play blow up bouncy things and spend time there for a couple of hours.

I am again in uncharted waters here... . so looking for advice.  The quick version of my plan is to focus on having healthy family interactions.

We have a marriage counseling this coming Thursday.  I don't plan on trying to bring anything heavy up until then.

[livednlearned]

Yeah... . so if you look back several threads started by me... . you will see one about an "ambush" family counseling.  Turned into... . all about me.

Well... . I think that guy is actually pretty solid.  40+ years experience... . PHD... . he is going to be the family counselor for the kids.  Before he gets into that he is going to have several individual... . and continuing sessions with both parents... . me an uBPDw. 

Today was her first session. 

His theory is that whatever is going on with kids is a result of the parents conflict and he needs to more fully understand... . and hopefully lessen that conflict to start helping the kids.  He will be getting the DSS investigators notes and reports on all the kids... .

We had long talk about uBPDw being a possible borderline.  He has experience... . and said he would obviously have to come to his own conclusions.

Also has lots of experience with PTSD.

Some very cautious optimism that we have a good thing here.

But... . you exactly have the right idea... that the kids need tools to deal with their parents... . and he has said as much... . that is why he needs to really understand each parent.

What is your sense about your wife's parenting when you were deployed?

I can imagine that you're deployed = no fighting between mom and dad. Then dad comes home = fighting between mom and dad. Then the kids coming to the conclusion (with the help of your wife) that you are the problem.

Do any of your kids display BPD traits? It's possible that they don't recognize the more subtle patterns of abuse and disordered thinking because that's all they've known. They just see that dad comes home and there is fighting, and mom tells them you're being mean to her, and they side with her because she's the primary parent. Better to be on her good side in case you leave again.

My therapist pointed out to me that if I struggled to make sense of this disorder and couldn't cope, imagine how it was for a child. For us, it feels like survival. For kids, it is survival.

[formflier]

What is your sense about your wife's parenting when you were deployed?

I think it was proper.  We would talk about big things.  But I never got a hint of anything that I was really against.  That has only came up in last couple years. 

I can imagine that you're deployed = no fighting between mom and dad. Then dad comes home = fighting between mom and dad. Then the kids coming to the conclusion (with the help of your wife) that you are the problem.

I think there is some truth to that.  We have a traditional marriage... . she is stay at home... I work.  When looking from this from kids perspective... . I can see how the associate those things.  And they don't have knowledge to work through the interactions to understand the difference in association and cause and effect.

Do any of your kids display BPD traits? It's possible that they don't recognize the more subtle patterns of abuse and disordered thinking because that's all they've known. They just see that dad comes home and there is fighting, and mom tells them you're being mean to her, and they side with her because she's the primary parent. Better to be on her good side in case you leave again.

I don't see any big warning signs yet... . but I will admit that I have been focused on learning about this as it relates to adults and not really how it develops in kids.  That is big gap in my knowledge and I need to learn about that.

My therapist pointed out to me that if I struggled to make sense of this disorder and couldn't cope, imagine how it was for a child. For us, it feels like survival. For kids, it is survival.

Very true.  I'm obviously unhappy about all this... . but... . it is what I have to deal with and I better get on with dealing with it.  I'm sure those will be tender conversations with my kids when and if they ever come up.  I need to be ready... . but don't need to push.  Right now I think I need to focus on healthy, fun, positive interactions. 

I'm totally open to suggestions.  I will check in with DSS early this coming week to get an update and try to figure out a timeline.