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Do all BPD cheat? How can you tell if you don't catch them ?

Follow your gut feeling, I never thought she would, but we broke up for two weeks, she slept with someone else, that she has known for a while.  Was the first time? she says so, but with all the convenient break ups who knows.  So just follow your gut, you will know, you may not want to hear it, or believe it, but they will not come out and tell you, until they are ready to move on, and then they still may  not want to let you go.

I can only tell you that mine cheated repeatedly. Always had a back up ready to go. How do you know?  Trust your gut... .It is never wrong. If you feel that something is not right it probably isn't. Trust your gut!

when you are treated like an option ... .

Sorry - I CANNOT agree, with the 'Trust Your Gut" feeling. Even NOT the , "if you feel something is wrong, there probably is".

There might be something wrong, Yes, but it may not be cheating. Could be something else.

These pwPD's are genuinely not well mentally. But that doesn't mean they are all cheat's.

Personally, I'd need substantial proof, or substantial confirmation from a very reliable, absolutely trustworthy source, that cheating was going on. And, then I'd have to try to confirm it myself, from the information received.



I certainly DO NOT think all pwBPD cheat. This is a major "Generalisation" comment.

In other words, a type of "warped thinking".

And it's certainly not true, of all BPD. Some yes. But not all.

Normal people cheat as well. But, that's NOT every normal person. Only some. The same "proving principle" would apply to them as well.

Why do you want to know?

I'd agree we can't generalize... .every person is still unique and different... .

For me we were together a long time while things were actually winding down. Then one day suddenly I was told it was all over, and was actually quite relieved in many ways, because there was so much pressure.

But, predictably, I began to realize it was suddenly over almost overnight as there was someone else involved. Not gonna try hide it, but it was very strange to hear! Not nice to hear... .

Now that's already all over and I get all the calls and cries for help once again. And it's very hard to resist. And those are some of the reasons why we're all on these boards!

Sorry... .meant to add... .

My ex doesn't feel it was cheating as she'd ended things for us virtually overnight... .the black and white thinking... .! And that is already over too... .

It's head wrecking... .!

Sorry to hear what you are going through. Must be very difficult for you...

I've been 38 years in my relationship, 32 years married. And now - problems.

You're right - that's why we are here, learning what we can, to help OURSELVES

One of the things that helped me quite a lot was the article / discussion on Co - Dependency.

Have you done it.

If Not, Type - BPD & Co-dependency in the search block above, and

then click on the first one or two items that appear.

Read as much as you can, especially what other members have to say at the end of the article - DISCUSSION.

Can You see yourself in this?

Best wishes.

Studies I've seen suggest that 80%+ of the time if you suspect cheating, you turn out to be right.

uPDxw cheated on me.  One affair partner that I found ironclad proof.  I believe there were others.

Signs they are cheating can be very confusing.  There's the usual suddenly changing their appearance, or suddenly dressing up more, buying new sexy underwear, etc.  Then there's the being out of touch for a bit, coming home and heading straight for the shower, suddenly getting very weird about their cell phones (taking it to the bathroom, etc.).  Changing their habits about email.  Basically a change in habits that makes it harder for you to check up on them.  They are trying to create security so they won't get caught.

You might ask them what they were doing last night, etc. and suddenly get a guilt trip about how dare you check up on them and hwo come you don't trust them and all you were doing was trying to catch up.  And those reactions didn't happen before, they were happy to tell you what they had going on.  They are changing reactions because they don't want you to know what they have going on, so they either try to guilt or scare you into not trying to find out anymore.

Sex life changes happen.  And it can go either way, it can drop way off from what it had been, or it can even ramp up.

They can have guilty conscious reactions and suddenly show up with gifts for no reason for you.  Or they can twist things in their mind into how you are so awful to justify cheating on you, and they end up treating you like dirt.

But the signs are always some kind of sudden change in their behavior, demeanor, and level of transparency/trust towards you.  And also mostly accompanied by some kind of attempt to gas light you into thinking you are wrong for questioning what's going on with them.

From what I've seen, the PD type cheaters usually lean towards the blaming/projection/bad treatment towards the partners they are cheating on, instead of a more guilty conscious that tries to "make up" for it in their own minds by extra gifts, attention, etc.  They justify their misconduct by figuring a way in their minds to blame you for something, or a bunch of things, and basically the cheating becomes one of their ways of punishing you.  You're so awful you deserve to be cheated on and abused in their minds.

Which studies are these?

We are talking about pwBPD and cheating specifically - NOT in general.

Is it possible to give us the link to them.

I'd like to check them out myself, in detail.



Many thanks

Thank you for posting this, will take some time to study it carefully. What are the odds that you're pretty much on the mark?  :)

It's a big help to a good few of us on here, it's clear... .

Sorry to hear of your own challenges too... .my own link up was 9 years of virtual marriage, so it's hard to comprehend how difficult nearly 4 decades together must now be where difficulties arise... .

Thankfully we can all help each other then in some small way, some more than others!

WOW. You just described the last couple months of our relationship. I was accused of having an affair with a coworker and accused of abuse, so I got the blaming/projection/bad treatment. Thanks for posting that.

I can't talk about all BPDs, I can only talk about mine. I was cheated on repeatedly.  I was accused of cheating or being interested in others... .I was not but apparently she was. She pushed me out. I hardly heard from her and she never wanted to spend time with me and she locked her phone. At one point she was juggling three of us at once.

So I was cheated on and I knew it in my gut. I felt it. And it was the feeling of hope and not wanting to be disappointed that kept me from looking into it so I ignored my gut and stayed in that hell and got cheated on again and again until I finally trusted my gut ... .and the proof was overwhelming.

So I disagree... .if you feel something is wrong it probably is.

My dBPDh cheated on me for about 1.5 years, and is a diagnosed sex addict (many sex addicts have PDs).  Recovery for partners of sex addicts concentrates on trusting your intuition.  There are red flags and signs, do not ignore them.  A famous saying is don't paint red flags white.  If they are getting funny with their phone and/or email.  If they aren't where they are supposed to be and come up with an odd sounding excuse.  If they suddenly have to travel quite a bit more.  If they become angry and defensive when asked about their whereabouts or what they are doing.  There is a lot of projection and blame onto the partner.  It isn't about being paranoid, it is about being realistic.  If this were a friend, would you be smacking him or her upside the head and saying "Come on, it is obvious they are cheating!."

Red Flags:

-Projections: Randomly turns to you and says, "are you going to go out on a date with a girl from work?" You: Uh, what? 2 weeks later she was with a guy from her office.

-Suspicions: If she all of the sudden makes comments about you that imply you are up to something, like on your phone, etc. That means she is doing the same thing. Texting someone, etc.

-Patterns of behavior: If she picks a nonsensical fight on a Thursday and says she needs alone time on Friday. And then you talk to her and she says she's going to bed at 9pm. Go drive by her house at midnight, her car won't be there. If her moods become giddy out of nowhere and she starts using phrases you've never heard. Lingo talk. If she starts forwarding jokes, or links that you know she isn't the type to ever find, ask yourself who is sending them to her. If she changes the passcode on her phone or won't go to bed or leave the room without it by her side when previously she would do those things.

-Experiments: Tell her you are going to be gone all day and night next saturday for work retreat. or with family. If the once hyper clinger person all the sudden loves the idea that's a flag. Then cancel last minute Friday and say you aren't going anymore. If she gets mad that you aren't going, that's a huge flag. You just ruined date night for her tomorrow.

Sex - if she either withdraws or all the sudden becomes a porn start who wants to get freaky and that's highly out of character, I wouldn't even touch her because that is a dead ringer.

If you suspect them a few pointers: NEVER confront them unless you have complete 100% evidence that can not be disputed. Also, if you are on to them, never ask questions or act funny. Encourage whatever they are doing or say nothing (i.e. if she says she is going to bed at 8pm on a Friday the day after picking a fight, don't question her. Just say yeah, I know you are tired get some rest babe!) That's what I did, and caught her a couple hours later.

Devalued: If she has no real pattern of devaluation and any of the above are cormorbid with a splitting hairs type of devaluation where she's mad at you for the dumbest things all of the sudden. She is trying to get you to yell and scream at her so she can feel victimized and use that as a validation point for seeking love elsewhere.

The best advice on here is to trust your gut. I never once checked on my ex until the night I drove there and her car was gone. I was explaining a story to a friend and was hit with this sudden fear that something was not right. And I was RIGHT. I learned that night to never not trust my instincts again.

Firm boundaries to discourage this nonsense and to keep your sanity: Let her know cheating is something you will never tolerate. Also trick her. Say, do you have a good memory? Yes. What's my phone number? When she recites it say to her, if you are ever out and your phone dies that's not an excuse to not call and let me know you aren't coming home. I know you know my number because you recited it by heart the other day.

One of the things that a lot of people overlook when talking about infidelity is that it isn't always outright physical cheating. My husband is a sex addict. He didn't actually cheat until the last year or so and it wasn't considered cheating because we were separated/trying to have an open relationship/whatever. But, for most of the beginning of our marriage, I felt like my husband was cheating on me. I knew he wasn't having sex with other women but I knew something was very wrong and off. I later found out that he was addicted to porn and masturbation. He would choose to be with his porn and himself instead of being with me. Because it wasn't outright cheating, a lot of people would dismiss it as "boys will be boys". Guys looking at porn is normal. At least he isn't cheating. It didn't make me feel any better because he was still emotionally and sexually unavailable to me.

He would deny what he was doing but I would check the history on the computers. When he lost his job over looking at porn at work, he could no longer deny what he had been doing. And 10 or so years later when things devolved into us having an open relationship, he would completely ignore me and become an a$$hole when he was courting other women. He would tell me that he wasn't talking with anybody or that he found a friend and I would find that he was sexting with her. He pushed for the open relationship and would then lie even though we had both agreed that one of the stipulations was to be honest with each other.

Let's just look at the Topics Question, again. Broken down, this is what I see:

    First part of question:

1.) Do "ALL" pwBPD cheat --  Possible answer : Yes, or No, or maybe.

    Second part of question:

2.) How can you tell (if they - "ALL" pwBPD cheat) if you don't catch them (catch "ALL" pwBPD)?


Cheating on a partner - surely this has to do with ones "Moral Values" and "Standards"

If you are an immoral person (pwBPD or not) you will cheat.

If you are a person with good moral values, you more than likely won't cheat.

Personally, I DO NOT think, that ALL pwBPD are cheats. Some Yes, but NOT all.

The same applies to "ALL" nons ( normal people ). Some cheat, some don't. Depends on their moral values.

I'm really so sorry that some of us, have had to experience what it feels like to be cheated on, and lied to.


I can't but help think what someone said, some time ago, on this site:

"When you mess with trash, you end up getting dirty."



That's the reality of infidelity - very bad moral values. People (pwBPD & nons) are going to get hurt.!

First of all I didn't experience what it "feels" like to be cheated on and lied to. She did both to me numerous times. I didn't catch her till later but all the times my gut said she did I was right cuz she admitted to it in the end. So I didn't perceive anything. I was correct.

Second yes it comes down to moral values.  I think if you read these boards you will find people with BPD don't have moral values. They are still stuck in the me me me three year old phase. A three year old is just learning about life and creating their values. A BPD is stuck at this mentality... .they never quite develop those values.

Ok - I understand what you are saying from your own personal experience. And I think the way you have responded to it, is most probably very similar, and most likely, how all of us would respond.

But - still - do "ALL" people with BPD have no moral values.

Maybe someone should do a Poll on this - because my answer would still be No - NOT ALL.

Do you know how to do a poll - I don't, because I'm still quite new here on BPD Family.

If you do it, I'll take part in it. Where would you put it - which Board - or is it a separate thing all together.

Cheating (or not) has nothing to do with moral values in my opinion just as I don't see how BPD has anything to do with morals. A person with BPD has morals, they just don't really know how to implement them consistently. There is a disconnect in their brains. My husband was a monk for several years before we ever met. He has studied religion and has a very strong background in religion and ethics/philosophy. It isn't that he doesn't have morals. It is that he lacks the ability to apply them on a consistent basis.

Saying that somebody cheats because of a lack of morals is crap in my opinion. Once upon a time, I would have completely agreed with that. Being weak or finding yourself in a situation where you can't say no or get caught up in things because of mitigating factors is not about morals. A person with a lack of impulse control isn't immoral. They are immature. Everybody has a tolerance level for certain things. Once that line has been crossed, certain things become more difficult. A person with BPD has a very low tolerance level and ends up doing all sorts of things that they usually regret or know, on some level, that it isn't right (usually in hindsight).

Some very interesting observations. Some food for thought. Thanks for that.

But still doesn't answer the question -

Do ALL pwBPD's cheat? How would one know, if they ALL cheat?



The question isn't - What are the signs that someone with PD's is cheating

Personally, I don't think we could ever know, if every single pwPD is a cheat. Most unlikely.

To me that is "generalising" which everyone who knows something about CBT, knows is a type of skew or warped thinking.

The easy answer is NO, all people with BPD do not cheat. And if they did, you would NOT necessarily know. Some people are very good at being deceptive. I have read a lot of materials about sex addiction because of my husband. There are all kinds of stories about all kinds of things. Partners are able to conceal cheating in all sorts of crazy ways and the other person has no clue. I had no clue the extent of my husband's problems with porn until after we had been married for several months.

If you want to get picky, one could ask "How do you define cheating?" If you define cheating as having sex with somebody other than your partner, then the obvious answer is no. If you want to define cheating as putting something else ahead of your partner on a consistent basis, then yes, they all cheat whether it is with a person, an idea, a game, an activity, or something else. They are selfish and incapable of considering other people's needs on a consistent basis. Even after my husband stopped the porn and cheating, he started hiding in computer games. Being ignored and treated like crap so he can play a computer game doesn't feel any better than when he was doing for other reasons. The bottom line is that I am not on his list of priorities.

i understand completely.when he was painting me black,he needed All of my attention,every inch,he couldnt bear that i wasnt texting him and calling him.

he called me a liar and someone who should,well,die.al because my father had had a cardiac event and i was assessing the amount to which it had gone and couldnt be on the phone with him

at other times he treated me like his living room chair.

he was very opinionated about his no cheating policy always telling me he was honest,and i was a cheating ass.

i took him for him word but i definitely now agree about trusting our instincts.i saw his phone once and i remember it was really squeaky clean,no texts from females,logs filled with work related interchanges,i didnt spy on his phone,i wanted to find a message i had sent him from a web service.

however once i was visiting his house and his phone was on and near me, i'd picked it up to look at the wallpaper but immediately tried to put it to sleep because i thought he would think i was going through it,i couldnt find the 'stand by' button and told him as much,he returned to the couch almost immediately and very carefully took the phone from my hands and turned it off,all i noticed was he seemed very nervous,uneasy and robotic.

i do believe he called or texted other people,even if he might have not slept with them.

Well put

Exactly!

And just to be clear, I used to think it was about morals too.  Considering that my husband is from an extremely religious background and thinks cheating is a sin, that really didn't help anything.  I certainly told him he was a an immoral pig when I found out.  As I have seen him recover and talk about the struggle over his previous behavior not matching his moral beliefs, I have gained a different understanding.

I'd like to thank you all, for being so open and frank. I think we are all learning something from each other.

So can we just cover the line in bold above:

... ." and then they still may not want to let you go". WHY? Besides being "crazy" sick.

Surely if they've already done this to us, we would have already been hurt. WHY hurt us more?

It's not about hurting you. If they cared about that, than empathy wouldn't be their missing characteristic like it is. It's not about you, it's about them. People don't get involved with a borderline or stay with one unless you yourself have certain characteristic deficits. For me, like other's it's a sense of healthy self worth and self esteem. I don't feel like I have a deficit of either but it's there somewhere lurking. The idealization phase where they hook you is less about how amazing they are and more about how amazing they make YOU feel about yourself. When someone is telling you how much you helped them, when they are saying how your physical chemistry is better than anyone they have ever known, when they tell you you saved them, you are soul mates, etc they are filling all the sub conscience deficits that plague you. In essence, they make you whole. But it's not real. You see, when you don't have these healthy feelings that come from within your own core, you rely for external affirmation to feel worthwhile. It's that same pathology, of lack of self worth that allows us to constantly let them back into our lives. Their manipulation may be filtered by our brain, but it's music to our soul. It's intoxicating. And they know it. It's why when you drop them they turn back to phase 1 immediately. And thus the cycle continues. They will not let you go because you once served as a drug to them as well. A narcissistic supply of affection, obedience, and a fuel to their needs for adulation and a support to their false grandiosity. Each time they come back has nothing to do with the fact they have hurt you. It has to do with the fact that at that moment they lack in their supply and they test you to see if they can extract a little more. When you run dry or something better comes along, you are forgotten. This is why it's imperative to build yourself from within and never fall for their games. Whatever ways you may lack prior to meeting them, they will create twice the number by the time they leave. My ex even verbally communicated this to me when I broke things off with her. She told me "I'm not done with you yet" cryptic, but also the truth. The truth is this type of abuse, especially anything past round one is not their fault. Abuse of this kind is a choice. And if you subject yourself to it, you have made the wrong decision. They are not capable of love as you would define it. Just ask them to define it sometime. They will give a nonsensical answer or have nothing to say. That's because they can't love you the way you love them. If they could, reciprocity, balance, respect and mutual care wouldn't have been missing since day one. You may think it was there but if you do a little real inventory, you'll see it may have been verbally communicated but rarely put into action. We were too distracted to notice. So whatever you do, don't fool yourself into thinking she can't let go because somehow she loves you. The only way for this to be true is if love in the above statement were defined as "needs you to love and adore me so I can control you, manipulate you, get what I want from you and then be the one to dump you so that in your struggle to make sense of it all I get a parting bonus of watching you crumble to remind me how powerful and wonderful I really am."

The thing is, it is not really cheating to say someone is cheating because they sleep with someone else this is way to one dimensional If your partner is BPD all they need is a reson to sleep with someone else if your partner has EVER been angry with you there is a good chance it has happened but that is so far from the point it is really not funny, the thing is you are judging by your standards not theirs an scince they have immense difficulties in seeing anything other than from there viewpoint your only real out is to say go for it but dont be suprised if you lose me which may well happen ces't la BPD

So, do they ever feel hurt - do they ever crumble - do they ever cry - when we tell them "Enough is Enough" !

Or are their tears, I've seen them (the tears), also a technique they use to "keep us blind to what they are doing" - the strange things, including the actual or alleged infidelities and lies.

Here is what I have learned about the disorder... .a BPD doesn't think the do anything wrong. They create  a fantasy world a delusional world in their head that is not reality. This is where they live. Although in reality they do all these things to hurt us lie, cheat, abuse us, in their fantasy they twist it and it is us doing it to them... .they are the victim. It is how they cope. It they were ever to actually step outside the fantasy and "see" what they have done... .their path of destruction... .they could never handle it. They would self explode. So they actually believe the lies they say and create. They have to. It is how they survive.

And, then they give us the "Silent Treatment". To prove What. Or to achieve, what.

Until we agree with them - that we are guilty - even when we're not!

Wow. This is quite scary - brainwashing par excellence!

My mother is a uBPD and she overshares with me. She is married to my father and has had a few lovers some of which she unfortunately introduced me to.

Basically, she told me that because my father was no longer interested in her sexually (and because everything is my father's fault - duh), that she needs to feel desired and like a woman again and that is her justification for seeing other men. Some of these men have been downright crazy too. My mother was recently bullied out of her job and forced into early retirement. This reinforced her view of herself as a victim, and now she keeps saying: "I am sick of being nice and naive, I am just going to do stuff for me from now on."

The point is, I think as long as she is the "victim", she can get away with whatever selfish thing she wants.

Mine would almost always say that I blamed her for everything, that she couldn't do anything right and that she didn't know what I wanted. I'd be pretty clear about my expectations; they were actually pretty low. Have you heard similar things?

That is my experience as well. It seems like he is a perpetual victim. Everything is his fault. He is a terrible husband. I feel like the one that is a monster most of the time because I dare to ask him to help around the house or be a responsible adult that is the father of 4 children. I am afraid to ask him for anything or say anything to him about much of anything because he gets defensive and acts like a wounded child.

I did always tell her that I couldn't talk to her, because she would either explode or get defensive. There were times when we could talk things through, but they were rare and inconsistent.

I'm glad to know I'm not the only that's seen that behavior.

I was blamed for everything. When I "fixed" everything that was wrong with me and gave her everything she wanted she still found a way to leave me. This time it was I was  trying to make her be someone she wasn't. what the heck?  All I asked was to be considered and respected. To be a priority in her life. I guess that was too much. She would ask me for my advice and j would give it and then she would tell me she was tired of me lecturing her all the time... .this became the justification for her leaving me for the replacement that she had been seeing all along.

For your own benefit you must stop using logic to validate their behavior. Not only will that fail, the rhetorical questions you ask yourself of how, or why will further confuse you as your brain searches for plausible answers. There is a pathology behind what they do.

Here is your above scenario in the mindset of this pathology with logic applied in a satire scenario (to bridge the gap between the way she thinks and you think)

You are dating someone with core wounds that stunted their emotional development. Stuck as children they often don't have adult mature conceptual skills such as accountability. They were neglected as children in some capacity. Even if simply not shown the right affection their needs were unmet and this made them feel shame and unworthy. When she does something wrong, she doesn't feel guilt for messing up that situation. Instead her emotions quantify it into shame. If she does wrong, she is wrong. And this triggers feelings of shame. that are so painful, her defenses rather than feel that will instead BLAME YOU FOR EVERYTHING. These unmet needs as children left her chasing after a parent or yearning for affection. At an age unable to grasp concepts like abuse or able to process the fact her parents may not be the heroes they are to all of us at that age, she still loves them. She now associates this perpetual deficit and yearning as love. Because it feels like love, because being neglected as a child chasing the affection of a parent we loved, feels like love. Her undertones in adulthood still yearn for this eternal hunger she can't really put a finger on. She's needy, she's a victim, save her. All this is left over from childhood. But, WHEN YOU FIX EVERYTHING AND GIVE HER EVERYTHING SHE NEEDS. You actually make this feeling of yearning go away. Meeting her needs, giving her affection makes all those deficits disappear. But this person is not based in logic, but emotion. That is her driving force. And her emotions no longer feel what she associates to love because the yearning is gone. To her she can't connect these dots, see you're doing all the right stuff, she only pays attention to her feelings and they say suddenly she doesn't feel that way anymore. She has such core trauma though her needs are actually a black hole of pain that can never be filled. YOU TOLD HER YOU NEEDED TO BE CONSIDERED AND RESPECTED. Imagine if your house was burning down. You are standing outside, frantically trying to call 911 and your girlfriend comes up to you and says, I need to go to the mall right now can you drive me? What would you do? You'd turn to her, with temper raging and put her in her place. How dare she suggest anything at a time like this! Can't she see this crisis you must deal with! What is wrong with her?  She is so focused on filling her core wounds. Her black hole of deficit. To mitigate a pain that is with her constantly yet she can't identify the source. So hyper focused on herself, she is much like the person calling 911 in this scenario. She has so much to do, and it's always a crisis. And you simply asking for respect and having your needs met to her is as ridiculous as the scenario above, being asked for a ride to the mall as your house burns down. She is insulted by it. Won't acknowledge it. And has spent a life time tending to this same scenario, focused on putting out that fire for so long, she hasn't even developed the skills necessary to even understand your needs and therefore she lacks empathy. How can someone understand someone else when they are always focused on themselves? In essence, she is ALWAYS that person whose house is burning down and you are ALWAYS the person asking her to go to the mall while she tries to call 911. Your only chance to get noticed is to give up your needs for the mall, grab a hose and help her put out the fire. That is of course until you realize it's impossible to extinguish. How can anyone in this scenario make you A PRIORITY IN THEIR LIFE? She's dated enough people to understand that all her boyfriends inevitably become the person who ask for a ride to the mall while she is busy trying to put out the fire. She doesn't have time to grieve, it's next man up! Hoping each time this will be the person that can extinguish it and will just focus on it 24x7 never turning to ask for a ride to the mall. So when someone attentive comes along, she gives him a shot to see if he is the answer. But this fire, it's raging, and she's tired of it. She wants it out. YOU have no idea what it's like to be her. To deal with this fire. All day, everyday. (victimization) and with needs this important she has the permission to seek help wherever it comes from (entitlement) And the second she ever agrees to drive you to the mall? She will lose control of the fire. Turn her head for one split second and the house will collapse (lose her identity) and that loss of control and guaranteed annihilation is intolerable to her. Her only chance is to control all the people around her, direct orders to help put out this fire. She gets anxiety when anyone so much as turns their head from the flames. She intuitively can read when someone is about to drop the hose and quit. So much so she will have the next person lined up to take over your duties and get the fire under control. Her entire life that phone will keep ringing and for eternity she will wait for the person to come along that can put out that fire.

VERY WELL put... .  THANK YOU ANXITY 5 !

One last thing to note. She will never find someone who can extinguish it. When she finally gets tired of fighting it and realizes there are less and less people lined up to help her fight it. When she realizes that the last dozen people all were identical carbon copies of each other that's the only chance she will ever have to put it out. And long and arduous will that burden be when she realizes that she is the one who has kept the fire burning all along.

Hi anxiety 5

What do you think about the following ?

As you mention above  they are in thirst for affection looking to replace what they lost in their childhood from their parents and thereafter growing up , for a fact I got to know the parents of my ex BPD GF they don't care about her still and she knows they don't but she loves them .

My question is have you experience when they give you all that grief while in the relation ,the episodes, the anger, the doubt, making walk on egg shell . I had problem giving her affections hugs you name it ,I felt anger not empathy and how would you be able to give them attention and love after you got showered with insults ?

At that time , could that be a significant factor into a healthier relation for other to hear about this , and hug them instead while in episodes and remind them that you are here to protect and love them ? I remember now my ex asking me to do that once or twice .

Anxiety, you're awesome!

This resonates SO much with me. I have never experienced anything like my ex's defense mechanism. I remember the first 6 months together. I know a lot of stereotypical "guys" are more introverted, and probably just go with the flow. I've always been fairly decent communicating and I learned a long long long time ago, I hate leaving anything unresolved. I don't sleep well, I analyze it, and it just occupies my mind until whatever conflict is over. This woman made me reconsider what I had previously viewed as one of my better characteristics. I remember trying to articulate things, or simply have a conversation rather than ignore the elephant in the room. Her body language was enough to make you enraged. She wouldn't make eye contact, and give every opposite physical indicator that one would exude to imply they are listening to what you are saying. She would never let me complete my thought. It was deflected, or if it really resonated she would shut it down and leave the room. She would victimize herself "You just beat me down!" or belittle me "I'm overwhelmed. You don't have a child. You have nothing going on in your life. You won't ever get it." (Meanwhile I'm seeing her daily, staying over nights and devoting 100% of my time to her and her son while she makes this comment) I would lose my temper 50% of the time and leave, something I know isn't affective with these people but what were my options? The second I backed down to her knowing full well she was the agitator that started whatever conflict, I was trying to resolve alone, that would set a precedent moving forward that would emasculate me into a punching bag. It was incidents like these that led me to the conclusion something was wrong and through that search, to this website.

You simply can't win with these people. If you say nothing, I don't see how one could possibly NOT build resentment. You ignore critical comments and a rage episode and then are expected to smile and clean the dishes after.  Maybe for a little while, but that's no way to live. I was devoted to her. I bought into her being overwhelmed and "anticipating her needs" but not being able to even discuss how I felt when she berated me, defeated any motivation I had to continue helping her.

I'm trying to remain positive in the wake of all this. I will say this: Imagine having a 2 hour commute to work and a 2 hour commute from work each day. That becomes your life and you get used to it. But if you get a new job and next time around it's 10 minutes each way, you are not only elated, but you have an appreciation for this care free manageable commute that would only be possible if you had the less desirable one first.

In this way, I learned to communicate even better. I learned to be super empathetic to other's words. To carefully communicate mine in a non confrontational way but still get my message across. And when I meet someone new who is easy, or hell, "normal" I will be THAT much more appreciative of them because of the hell I went through with the ex. In that sense, I appreciate her. She made my next relationship better without even intending too.

I'm not a therapist so this question is tough to answer with certainty. My answers on here are often in depth, but based off my own situation so in that sense I feel I have the right to share them because I experienced them vs. using some BPD article to formulate a conclusion.

That being said, my guess would be no. That your affection could not have changed that situation. I recall several times during these episodes doing exactly what you say here. I would sense she was overwhelmed and go behind her as she did something at the kitchen counter and hug her from behind and give her a kiss on her neck and tell her it's ok, let me help whatever it is you need right now to do in order to feel better. She was rigid, wouldn't relax because of this. In fact I think she took that as invalidation. That I was making light of her "crisis" and in turn, it would lead to further belittling statements about "I have no idea!" "I can't help because I can't understand how overwhelmed she is" etc.  I once asked her when that happens, I know you think my response may not be the one you want. Can you tell me what you need from me when you feel that way? How else am I supposed to know? She told me to just give her space. Don't react to it and just leave her be. So I started doing that. There is always something to do, so when she was like that I'd just grab the keys and say, hey I'm going down to the grocery store to get a couple things, is there anything I can get for you?" When I'd get back she was usually more "centered" and sometimes would actually be better. The answer is to totally disengage. I did that for awhile but where it became intolerable was when due to that approach and the calm it produced, it's not like she was in treatment so that "pressure" or torment inside her would still build. Because I wasn't responding and giving her an outlet to get it out, it led to her rapidly devaluing me. Making terrible comments and criticisms. It got to a point where if I simply responded with "Why are you saying this? It's kind of rude, I'm trying my best." In a calm voice, I'd look over and she was quivering mad and would kick me out. That's when I realized there is no managing this. The only answer is to completely lose yourself, your wants, your needs, and agree to be abused. Or you can imply iron boundaries but in my estimation with mine, that would mean I'd be spending 99% of my time in another room, or sleeping somewhere else. My philosophy was simple. There are more good days than bad days. I will continue trying my very best. If despite this, it keeps trending bad, I'm done when over the period of 30 days we reach a point of more bad days than good days.  This is helpful too because you have the peace of mind of knowing, I did my best. No regrets. It's not me, it's the pathology of mental illness that failed.

There is almost certainly a physological aspect to consider reinforcing the hopelessness of fixing things ( though it may help ) with love an affection

Very well said ! thank you !

Very well put, anxiety5.

^^^I have lived this so many times with my ex. Every time I hugged her, told her that I loved her, or asked to help, she had a look of hate and disgust on her face. When talking to her, I would tell her that I just don't understand what's wrong. Her reply would be, "I know you don't understand and you never will understand". So, yes it is a helpless feeling. But yet, with the type of person I am, I still tried to understand and still tried to help "fix" the problem. Bad idea, that only makes the problem worse in the long run.

No matter how much love, affection, understanding, or caring you show them, you will not change this situation. I mean maybe once or twice early in the relationship you make them feel bad and they may back down. But once it gets to certain point in the relationship, it's game over man. It's not easy, but in my opinion, at this point you should end the relationship and go NC. It's hard right now because I do miss her, but it's nowhere near as bad as it was when I was still living there and having to watch her go out and fcuk another guy with no remorse... .

Yep. My life = Your life. Same thing. It's amazing how stubborn Iam. I still thought I could maneuver through it somehow. For awhile, just leaving her be would work. In fact not saying anything to her, she would usually come out of it and feel guilty and bad about the way she acted. My problem is, I came from a family of all guys and when you scream and belittle me, I have a hard time "eating it" But it did work (temporarily) to just walk away. But the whole pathology of this condition means like a volcano, they blow and in the interim they build back up. As the relationship continued, and I stopped "biting" on her attempts to bait me into an explosion, the stresses still built. Her release was the rage and projection. She needed it. So me walking away did nothing to solve anything. It just meant she stayed in the build up phase for weeks instead of days, it meant she baited me more and more. It meant the explosions were more violent and the fall out was bigger. 

Such is the problem with someone who derives their self worth through the eyes of another. The person who made me feel alive now made me want to be dead. I felt horrible and worthless. It's really tough.

I'm convinced of one simple FACT to live by. DO NOT stay in a relationship with a BPD unless they are in therapy FOR BPD. Otherwise read what I wrote above and that is your fate. This problem NEVER goes away. You are slowly digging your own grave and killing your emotional well being as each cycle of abuse you are stressed to a point you are inevitably going to be placed in that grave soon if you stay. You can't manage it unless they are actively invested in getting help to make real progress.

I'm sorry for what you're going through. Your insights have been very helpful to me, especially what you wrote above. My girl, who was really never mine, left to find someone that fed her self worth as I wasn't doing it for her anymore. Being in a relationship with someone like that is a terrible way to "live."

You don't understand, you'll never understand, you don't care, you don't want to understand... .

I used to get all the same refrains also, normally in attempting to justify another scene or outburst! Perhaps we shouldn't doubt that our partners are dealing with so much that we can never really understand, so that perhaps it's true in part. But most of the posts on here suggest that people here really do want to try and understand... .! And have put much time and energy into it too.

But we do have to have some loyalty to ourselves also, don't we? At least, that's what my own counselor/therapist said! (I'm in it, and my ex is not... .!)

It's been said elsewhere... .and there must be something in it - that each of us has to want to take responsibility for ourselves eventually. I hung around for so long hoping my ex would get into therapy again (she did actually do so a few years back and it made a huge difference). But I did eventually realize I can only make the call for myself, and do it.

But those calls for help all the time even once estranged from one another - even after not ending the relationship ourselves - they're not easy to ignore... .!