BPDFamily.com

I find myself in need of advice on strippers and strip clubs.

It has surprised me that despite the proclivity of strippers having BPD (30-40 %) very few people here have mentioned such. I had a bit of a chat with one member who is married to a stripper but thats about it, including going through the archives.

I have not been able to recontact him now and I need help.

I find myself in a situation where I have to garner information about this (sub-class) of BPD as it relates to my child.

I am fully aware of the stereotypes an generalizations but I am quite capable of dissecting information appropriately and am looking for any input. I suspect that they seem of queen variety maybe narcissistic /antisocial personality disorder gold digging traits.

One thing, from personal experience, their partners may not readily fall in the co-dependent enmeshed category. My ex was a stripper.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

I hadnt thought about it before but my ex wife mentioned quite a lot that she wanted to be a pole dancer.  I always laughed it off as she was quite shy but kniwing what I do now about BPD I can see why this was a recurring idea. All that adoration would have  been validating.

These are strictly my personal observations and experiences. I'd say about 10-20% of strippers are basically well-adjusted, maybe some narc traits or general emotional immaturity (a lot of strippers are young, and the human brain doesn't stop developing until our mid-20s). The remainder include Cluster B traits, cPTSD, addicts/drunks, perpetual victims, lost souls, and the like.

People have all sorts of reasons for entering into sex work, just like with anything in life. But a profession that requires charm, seduction, emotional detachment, and sexuality -- and provides external validation and narcissistic supply -- is right up the borderline alley. It makes sense that many young, attractive female borderlines would be drawn to stripping, camming, or similar lines of work.

What about strip clubs? My only source of information on this is my ex though knowledgeable trying to get an unbiased picture from someone with BPD is difficult.

Her current take is that pole dancing has made things worse and meth-amphetamine has taken over and there is unrelenting pressure (via money) on the girls to move into lap dancing an possibly further.

But talking to a pwBPD is a bit like talking to them about there ex's -- you're not going to get anything but black or white depending on how they feel. 

Speaking from personal experience:

I bartended in that type of club in my early 20's.

I will share my observations.

1. Out of all the years I worked in those clubs, only 1 girl did it sober. She was 18.

2. 100% of the girls I worked with had a story; child abuse (usually sexual), neglect, and broken homes / absent father.

3. 90% of the girls did this for the money (it's a lot) and the attention wasn't bad either BUT of that 90%... .85% had nothing nice to say about the men. Perverts, "life support system for a wallet", a 'mark', pigs, etc. They played along with the "mark" out on the floor; but back in the dressing room, they were disgusted.

4. 10% are predators. They are used to being the prey, so now, they are the hunter. They seek out the 'weakest' link in the crowd, shower him with attention, and drain his bank account. Those gals ran in packs, and the other 90% stayed away from them.

5. Strip clubs are one of the saddest places on the planet. Every girl has a story, and each one heartbreaking. This place provides them with fast money for doing what they have been programmed to believe in the childhood: That their bodies, and the provocative-seductive behavior is the only way any man will pay attention to them. It's their 'worth'. It's sickening.

6. Of all the years I worked in those clubs I only knew 1 gal who actually 'stripped' to put herself thru college. She was also part of the 10% that "hunted". She was not a nice person. At all.

In 1990, C. A. Ross, G. Anderson, S. Heber, and G. R. Norton reported that 11% of the prostitutes that they studied had traits indicative of Borderline Personality Disorder in a very small sample study.  Ross et. al. is the source behind the news article cited above.  The complete reference is:

C. A. Ross, G. Anderson, S. Heber, and G. R. Norton, “Dissociation and abuse among multiple-personality patients, prostitutes, and exotic dancers,” Hospital and Community Psychiatry, vol. 41, no. 3, pp. 328–330, 1990.

Ross's data is not inconsistent with other larger studies that show that the prevalence of BPD is certain sub populations is higher than in the general population overall. For example, the native Americans (11.9%), families with income levels between 0-$19,999 (9.8%), people in the age group 20-29 (9.3%), or individuals that did not graduate from high school (8%).  bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=66448

Neither Ross, nor the NIH is suggesting that pwBPD are inclined to become prostitutes nor American Indians.  These are epidemiological studies.  What the data suggest is that prevalence of the disorder is higher in these subgroups and should be seen as:

Prostitutes are more likely to have BPD  than women in the general population.

American Indians are more likely to have BPD  than women in the general population.

As an aside, there are many studies that suggest that childhood sexual abuse is the leading predictor of prostitution.  www.jfi.sagepub.com/content/12/3/361.abstract

This is great information Skip! Thank you.

Seeing that the 'studies' are 25 years old, do you think that as society-culture-enviornmental-food additives-etc have changed drastically, could those factors change the statistics in 2015?

((Not all 'strippers' are prostitutes. I worked those clubs for a few years, and of all the girls that came and went maybe only 3-4 actually had sex for money))

I'd bet topless and upscale places have more of the well adjusted types.  The fully nude, gross places where there is likely (semi-) prostitution going on are probably 99% addicts and such.

I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation.

Researchers at Wright State University, Dayton, Ohio studied exotic dancers. One-hundred percent of the dancers reported that they had been physically assaulted during work-related activities at least once. The prevalence or assaults ranged from 3 to 15 times during the time of employment in the sex industry, with a mean occurrence of eight incidents. The types of offenses included physical assault (100%), attempted vaginal penetration with fingers (61%) or objects (33%), and attempted vaginal rape (17%). Forty-four percent of the women interviewed in that study reported that they had been verbally threatened, with a range of 3 to 150 threats for those who reported threats.4

These findings were substantiated in another Wright State University study which found similar results. A greater prevalence of physical assaults and unwanted sexual contact occurred in indoor settings (e.g., lap dancing, private booths, and back rooms). Indoor is strip clubs, cabarets. Outdoor is prostitution, escort services, etc.

Holstopple K. Stripclubs according to strippers: exposing workplace sexual violence. In: Roche D, Roche C, editors. Making the Harm Visible: Global Sexual Exploitation of Women and Girls, Speaking Out and Providing Services. Kingston: Coalition Against Trafficking in Women; 1999. pp. 252–276.

Maticka-Tyndale E, Lewis J, Clark J, et al. Exotic dancing and health. Women and Health. 2000;31:87–108.

That's about as surprising as putting a burger in front of a starving dog and being surprised he eats it, and "exotic dancer" and "workplace" are misnomers.  As Going Places said, strip clubs are one of the saddest places on the planet.

What we have to remember is we have a different perception to sex. Ok maybe im generalising but my exgf told me quite proudly that she had slept with over 200 men. This figure appeals to her because to her it means she is attractive and desired. To others it means she is cheap and easy.

If sex takes on the same worth as a handshake then wouldnt you make money by shaking hands and not see the problem?

Im not saying this is the case. What I am saying is its a different mindset.

Or empowered.

Researchers at High Point University have looked at customer-stripper interactions.  

The authors paint an odd picture of strippers feeling empowerment in a disempowering context. Stripping for money is not a high-status profession,  but it is a significant source of material rewards nonetheless, rewards realistically available in few other female vocations.   They found that the conflict between customers' goals and strippers' goals resulted in the need for the strippers to create and sell a "counterfeit intimacy" --  a situation in which an aura of intimacy masked mutually exploitative interactions.  

They explored the interactional strategies that table dancers use to fake intimacy-how they develop a "sorting process" to distinguish good tippers from bad ones, how they identify men who might be too sexually forward or expect too much, and how they single out men who might consume too much of their attention.

The researchers observed that some men enter such clubs more in search of a girlfriend or a wife than a striptease. Table dancers generally predatory toward such persons and would "lead them on" to secure gifts, money, and other material rewards, after which the man's advances were politely declined.

The conclude that in this "cat and mouse game", the strippers fare better then the men (not including the violence aspect).

Ronai CR, Ellis C. Turn-ons for money: interactional strategies of the table dancer. J Contemp Ethnography. 1989;18:271–298.

The study goes into great deal about the dynamics.  Here is an example.

A dancer used symbols that appealed to her audience. At the same time, these symbols distanced her from customers and denoted that the stage was a performance frame. Her appearance, eye contact, manner, and choice of music made up her main expressive equipment.

Having a "centerfold" figure was an obvious asset for dancers. But the best looking woman did not always make the most money. A dancer's presentation of self was also a crucial factor in a customer's decision to tip her. Similar to strippers described by, women often portrayed exaggerated stereotypes through their clothing style and movement. For instance, a "vamp style" dancer wore suggestive street clothing such  as a leather micro-mini skirt, spike-heeled boots, and a halter-style top while strutting around the st age displaying overt sexual mannerisms such as "flushing" (opening her shirt to reveal her pasty- clad breasts).

Others had a "gimmick."  For example, one woman was an acrobat; another stood on her head while twirling her large breasts. In contrast, a more sensual dancer dressed in sexy bedroom clothing such as a corset and garters or a teddy, and displayed subtle sensual behavior such as slow undulation of the hips.

Dancer chose symbols that drew a certain type of  customer to her.

Dressing the part of the vamp, for example, reflected an extroverted attitude that attracted customers out to have a good time. Overtly sexual dancers were more likely to perform sexual favors in the bar or meet' a man for sex outside the bar.

The sensual presentation of self attracted customers who were interested in a "serious," private interaction. Customers interpreted each dancer's symbols as cues to what it might be like to interact with her or, specifically, to have sex with her.

Most dancers used eye contact to  "feel  out" a patron. Managing frequent eye contact while dancing on stage usually meant a tip for the dancer and made a customer feel' as if a dancer was specifically interested  in  him. A dancer's first close contact with a customer often occurred while accepting a tip. During the exchange, the dancer formed impressions about how the customer was reacting to her, and the customer decided whether he was attracted to the woman. The customer stood at the side of the stage holding currency, which signaled the dancer that he wanted to tip her. The dancer greeted him while accepting the tip in her garter and said "thanks," perhaps giving him a "special" look. At this point, a dancer might choose from several courses of action, such as "coming on" to a customer, doting on a customer, and using humor.

When dancers "came on" to customers, they grinned, wiggled their breasts, spread their legs, struck their buttocks, suggestively sucked their fingers, talked dirty, or French kissed. Others, such as the sensual dancer, doted on a customer for a few seconds. She caressed his arm, wrapped her arms around his neck, and smiled while he tipped her. If she felt confident of his interest, typical comments she might make were: "I would love a chance to get to know you," or "I look forward to sitting with you," which meant accompanying him to his table after her stage performance.

Humor was an effective and safe tool for generating a good impression  while accepting a tip on stage. Customers generally construed a funny statement made by a dancer as friendly and spontaneous. Often it made a nervous client more at ease.

Familiar with the usual "acts" of dancers, such as coming on and showing phony interest, customers were pleased when they thought a woman had "dropped the routine." Often this meant only that she had staged a less frequently displayed one. A  dancer had to be careful not to use the same line more than once on the same person, or let a customer over hear it being used on another man.

No matter a customer's taste, he wanted a sincere performance.

www.carolrambo.com/articles/Turn-ons%20for%20Money-Ronai-Ellis.pdf

Or all of it skip.

My exgf seem to relate sex to love aswell so apart from feeling attractived, empowered, desirable she probably felt loved. Add to all the psycological aspects the physical aspect of serotonin and oxytocin release and theres a lot of possitives for them.

I apologize for not understanding the issue at hand.

Skip has presented great research characterizing risks and dynamics in strip clubs. Presenting this factual information to a teenager or young adult might be helpful in persuading them.

I would add that teenagers and young adults generally tend think differently about probablistic facts than adults. This is based on work by Reyna & Brainerd. Teens tend to process probabilities just fine, but their conclusions differ from adults. So if you say to a teen, there is increased risk for developing cancer if you smoke, the teen accepts that there is an increased risk. However, many know that increased risk is not a guarantee and possibly believe that the risk applies to others and not them. Adults tend to generalize more and think more black and white (i.e., death is bad, and increased risk of death is equally bad). (These are generalizations in differences in thinking, and of course, there is a good amount of variability among teens and adults).

So one thing to consider is emphasizing the guaranteed outcomes. All strippers report being physically-sexually assaulted. Most report vaginal or attempted vaginal penetration and some rape.

I believe that the other work on counterfeit intimacy also can be useful for persuading a teen with BPD to stay out of stripping/adult entertainment. If a teen is thinking that the exchanges will feed a sense of empowerment and control over men and/or will substitute for genuine intimacy, all to manage feelings of low self-worth, then presenting those details on the real exchanges might challenge the teen's romantisized view.

As with most confrontations, these things should be wrapped in validation for the teens feelings, compassion, and love.

I'm sorry you're in such a difficult situation, Sly. 

I stripped some during college. The excellent information that Skip has posted here reflects my personal observations and experiences from my time in strip clubs.


A lot of things depend on the individual club itself. Some clubs are usually "known" for drugs and prostitution; others do what they can to curb those elements.

I would advise anyone who's considering stripping to actually visit some clubs and talk to the people who work there (strippers and other staff).

Most of the money does come from lap dancing and from "regular customers." So there's a lot of pressure to sell dances and to foster connections with potential customers. On the whole, strippers do a lot more talking than dancing. It's a lot of PR work.

It's a difficult job -- mentally, emotionally, and physically. It requires a lot of navigating around the complex waters of human sexual interactions and gender dynamics. The monetary rewards can be great, but it's a world of drama, disillusionment, and inauthenticity.

I wouldn't necessarily discourage anyone from stripping, but I think that young women especially have misconceptions of what all is truly involved. I know I did.

My advice would be to have a validating, nonjudgmental talk about it. I like Mike-X's suggestions. It's difficult to approach teenagers and young adults about such things, but approaching them as adults can help -- not talking down to or lecturing in any way, but encouraging an open, mature discussion. Young adults are often looking for ways to feel empowered and in control.

Thanks for all the information Skip it is very helpful and thank you everyon else for your concern.     Borderline Personality Disorder in Strippers/Exotic Dancers?

A study by the director of the Sexual Trauma and Psychopathology program at the University of Pennsylvania found 55 percent of strippers are diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and 60 percent experience depression. I thought 55% was on the high side but still an astounding figure.

I didn't post that information  - it was her observation - not sure what that means. Seems high.

FYI my step daughter ( i care for her ) who just turned 18 December 30 is extremely BPD and probably bipolar 1 We have as good a relationship as someone who is on her back about work / school can have. ( a sort of grudging respect / acceptance ) Her outlook is very poor regardless of weather she progresses from exotic dancing or not. (looming drug addiction / very smart but cant sit final exams hospitalizations, etc ) Ironically the reason she applied for these jobs is because i said she could not spend all day in bed an not go to school as is the want of BPD she then applied for these jobs i don't even suspect it was intentional payback an she is even in a good spot at the moment. ( the establishment is fairly high class ) But to say she is vulnerable would be a massive understatement I have tried to urge her to go to church to meet some friends ( burnt all her friends when she psycho in hospital ) she said yes but didn't come will try again apologies for the punctuation

Hi slyqq

Im sorry your having to deal with this. I can understand you wanting to get her away from this. I dont know your or your stepdaughters interests so I cant say if involving her in the church will be taken up by your step daughter.

Personally I would not try to push the church on to her as it can come across as judgemental at times and your stepdaughter may see it as a polar opposite of what she is doing and therefore it could be quite triggering. I do feel though that getting her interested in something else would be beneficial. Is there a different hobby or interest you could look at?  Maybe looking at what job she wanted to do and find an interest that relates to it that could maybe lead into working in that field.

You sound as if you have a strong relationship with her and are able to talk to her about this openly. Have you discussed BPD with her? You say she is extremely BPD but im not sure if you said she was diagnosed.

Thanks light. She is actually sought of religious its hard to explain a BPD thing. It is a long story I have been talking to her an she has got some modeling work ( legit above board ) already from one of the people she met there, but she doesn't have any other hobbies she can easily pursue.

p.s. she will just about rip your eyes out if you mention BPD ( her mum ) in hospital they said manic with abandonment issues ( also said suicide attempt while she was in, wasn't a legitimate attempt )

Hi sly

I think this is one of the hardest parts of dealing with BPD. The fact that you cannot discuss it with your loved one.

The legit modelling sounds like it could be an answer. By encouraging this and voicing your fears that her current choice scares you as you hear so many horror stories you may be able to divert her.

Its sad to think that you have to behave like a pwBPD to try and help them. By this I mean you have to manipulate them rather than being honest with them. Im not saying that we are manipulative but we have to make them believe its their idea or else they can reject it.

Maybe you could try introducing a hobby such as photography to go with the modelling idea. Put a spin on it that it will help her understand what the photographer is after and so make her more rounded in the proffession.

Disagreed.

Some might make it out or be adjusted and not abused, but playing by the odds and what damage it can do, it make zero sense to strip unless it is a choice between that and starvation.

From what I know, I would without a doubt discourage anyone from this work.

You might've found an exception, but the vast majority of men would take stripping as a red flag and find better odds.  It very obviously hurts your prospects in LTR.  Most men are not "evolved" enough to look past.  That is a simple truth.  It might sound unfair, but it is absolute reality. And I talk to many men frankly and the agreement is 100%.

Further, if you ask girls at the club about it, they have a strong reason to lie.  If they told the brutal truth it would hurt recruitment and likely get them into trouble.  On none of my job interviews has a worker said "this place sucks and you should avoid it".

Skip the figure of 55% of strippers being BPD seems unrealistically high. It indicates to me there may have been some overlap with other disorders. I have seen other figures as well indicating 35 to 45% . It is a very interesting dynamic that I have to consder regarding exposure to like minded individuals and where that may lead I am sorry if my post s are often rushed and sometimes cryptic I have immense time pressures ( single parent three kids one mentally disturbed ) working 70 hours a week to keeo things going. Just like to say i think you are doing a great job an i apolagize for any inconvienience 

I've never found it to be an issue with relationships. If a man is going to judge me that harshly for something I did over a decade ago, then I wouldn't want much to do with him anyway.

I wasn't judgemental on this topic until I've met my BPDex as we've all had our share of past mistakes. I'm still open minded but now see it as an indicator that will result in disaster 90 percent of the cases, can't really blame anyone for not betting their emotional well-being with those odds.

Hi Sly-

I don't know that a clinical label and statistics are as important as motivations.  There's a purity to strip clubs, where women flaunt their sexuality and allure for money while men objectify them, respond to a drive and maybe satisfy it, and pay.  The intimacy is fake, paid-for intimacy always is, yet everyone knows that, and in a sense the transactions are cleaner than the same ones outside in the world, which are varying versions of real and fraught with uncertainty, as the beginnings of real intimacy always are.  The elimination of that uncertainty is why strip clubs exist.

Anyway.  BPD traits exist on a continuum, and the strip club environment meets a borderline's needs on a couple of levels: an attachment in the form of a transaction is created, abandonment is a given from the outset so it won't be feared, and engulfment is impossible because the intimacy is fake and the girl is in control.

So what does yours get out of it, besides money?  There's nothing inherently evil about strip clubs, in a sense they're just a monetization of what happens in the world at large, the only issue being folks who lose themselves there and forget or never perceive what is really going on.  So what needs does yours meet by working there?  And how can those needs be met in other ways?  :)oing mainstream modeling is similar in that they're both a celebration of physical beauty and allure, but would it meet the same needs for her?  And the meth is meeting needs too, it's a great antidepressant, for example.  We all have beliefs about behaviors, but it's not hard to suspend them and dig for the needs doing meth and stripping meet, and finding other ways to meet those needs at a higher level more holistically; one of the best things we can do for someone who appears to be engaging in disempowering vehicles to meet their needs is to provide alternative vehicles by focusing on those needs.  Take care of you!

Great line of thought. Cam modeling was only a vehicle to fulfill the needs that arised in her, a familiar one as their attachments are themselves transactional in nature, where youth and sexuality become a personalized commodity in the evaluation of the partner’s needs.

There had to be a counter-offer, one that's viable and leads to immediate gratification, as they have a great difficulty in delaying short-term rewards for the sake of meeting long-term goals. Modeling could be a good idea, if turns out that the slow career ladder and work required in the industry is not her cup of tea, then it could still easily lead to finding someone who sponsors her lifestyle which is, taking reality into account, would be a quite good outcome right now.

I'm not sure purity and "cleaner" is true or that everyone knows the game.  

My experience in this area was to be a landlord in an area where some tenants were strippers. I got to see the lifecycle of a stripper - and this may be the area to focus.

The image I saw was very attractive young women getting booked at the top club in the area and making incredible money - and adopting the lifestyle of that wealth.  As newer girls came into the circuit, these girls got bumped to the "B" clubs where making that same money was harder.  And then the "C" clubs... .and ":)" clubs.  

Eventually, they were mid-late thirties and bitter and having relationships with undesirable boyfriends to pay the bills. And then the crash.

What does a 40 year old stripper do for a living?

My point is that the "fake intimacy" can become all they know or all they have access too and it becomes them. People with BPD already have attachment issues.

My other view is of the men here who went to the clubs to finds something more than fake intimacy.  They take on these broken women and try to rehabilitate them and never know what is real or what is "fake intimacy".

There are a few that get in, get the money and get out. I had one that danced for a year, quit, and went to chiropractor school. She stayed and worked the top club, didn't drink, lived well below her means.

If you can't talk her out of it  - if she is going - maybe the best the best thing to do is educate her on how to get in and get out and to do it for a greater purpose.

It is cleaner, but you're right, not everyone knows the game.  We all know how it plays out in the real world; if a man wants to get laid he will buy a woman flowers, dinner and drinks, with an agenda, and if a woman wants to get laid she'll wear a shorter skirt and unbutton and extra button on her blouse, with an agenda.  The games people play.  Prostitution is the cleanest of all: pay money insert penis, no games.  Of course none of that has anything to do with true connection, the development of intimacy, or the building of healthy relationships, but those things involve risk and are not what strip clubs are about.

Getting in and getting out with emotional detachment and clear financial goals could work Sly, and it will be important to discover what if any motivations to get needs met are there beyond financial gain, and address those and options in meeting them as well, so she doesn't go down the path Skip describes, using a diminishing and unsustainable commodity without an exit plan.  Take care of you!

Interesting topic. The BPDx used to mention that she would go out and be a stripper if she were not self conscious about her body after having a baby. It's right up her alley and i wouldnt be surprised if her life hadn't panned out the way it has (5 kids by 3 guys in 6 years), she would be probably be stripping.

That being said i have much more respect for a stripper or a prostitute than i do for the BPDx because at least they are charging money. The BPDx would give it up to pretty much anyone that looked her way for free.

SlyQQ, who has hear ear and what are they telling her?

What is driving her to do this now?  Is there a problem that needs solving?  What are the other solutions?

The first line has to be to discourage this by finding an alternate solution.

Is this your daughter's mother?


Taking a high paying job that doesn't require an education, back ground check, getting up early in the morning, or too  much competitiveness is the easy road.  Most young people would  jump on a job like that... .it would be their own attitudes and belief system that would stop them. Since pwBPD have low self image issues and are very immature... .they are highly likely to take such a position.  They don't think about whether it is a good choice from all perspectives. 

I recently had a conversation with my 18 year old daughter about work and school.  She is afraid she can't handle the stress of both... .so we prioritized... .school is about the future and work  outside of a career is about making money to get by and sustain the pursuit of a career (academics).  It was easy for her to see that school was where she needed to focus right now. 

Can you help your daughter shift her focus to school?  It is best not to argue who is right and who is wrong.  Just like a toddler... .with immaturity a redirect is better than trying to reach consensus.

I think the focus should be on the "here and now" dimension as most of them live in that timeframe, young age and the presence of substance abuse(meth is the worst in that sense) are the strongest indicators in deficits in delay of discounting, even among the BPD group. Setting them up for failure would just add to ever growing pile of shame. The pwBPD in life my was very smart(an unpolished gem), finished her High School Equivalent at the of 26, and by that time, coming from the right socioeconomic background, she would have been mature enough to pursue a degree, her dOCD friend and prostitute acquaintance both got theirs at early to mid 30s.  

While our delay discounting findings are consistent with research in other impulsive populations (Mitchell, 1999; Petry, 2001, 2002; Petry & Casarella, 1999), the extent of the preference for immediate rewards and the discounting of delayed rewards in our BPD sample, as compared to the healthy controls, is remarkable. Even when the delay was 1 day, BPD participants were inclined to accept a lesser amount of money because it was available immediately instead of waiting 24 hours for the full amount. In contrast, while control participants discounted the value of $1,000 over long delays, the lowest amounts they were prepared to accept were much larger than the BPD group’s choices, suggesting a greater degree of selfcontrol and ability to delay gratification. Many of the BPD participants joked about how they wished the money was real so they could pay outstanding mobile phone bills or buy more cigarettes. Such comments reflect how this style of decision-making is manifested in the day-to-day lives of individuals with BPD, where immediate gratification often takes precedence over pursuing longer term options such as saving money or quitting smoking. It is possible that the level of decision-making bias might be accentuated in our sample since younger age is associated with greater impulsivity in BPD (Stevenson et al., 2003).

www.goo.gl/AvtDbM

I think the who has her ear or what has her attention is huge.

My ex was often in chrisis mode even just to do her normal things. Some girl had her ear about how she could make like several grand in a night with her if she had s threesome with her.  The thing was the way that girl framed it and all that was extremely manipulative.  There is usually a person like that girl I describe involved or maybe was at some point and the girl your ex talked to is now making it seem like a logical decision. 

I could have manipulated my ex into going some really messed up routes I saw the vulnerablity but I didn't it doesn't mean somone else won't. 

To answer some questions…

Her mother ( my ex ) used to be a dancer and stopped quite a few years before i met her.

One of the strange dynamics is that my step daughter is terrified of her mother, ( her words talking to a doctor when she was manic and very forthright ) and funnily enough I believe her mother is scared of her also. There is a lot of angst there and in any confrontational situation would bring almost instant dysregulation on her behalf ( my ex is recovering quite well and stable at moment ). They have seen very little of each other over the past few years ( lunch on mothers day not Christmas, a few brief encounters when her mum picks up our son on weekends but even then most often they dont see each other.) 

My step daughter needs to be placed in a calm isolated environment with few people around. This is not going to happen her life is turmoil stress getting through school, losing her friends, hospitalizations, fights with her boyfriend exposure to drugs the list goes on.

Nor realistically is there anything I can do about a lot of it. 

Again I had a plan /wish that I could get her away to work on a ranch outback to work but as life does, one of her old primary school friends turned up on her 18th an was working outback and I discovered there were 10 men for every woman and a heavy drinking culture - obviously a disaster for my step daughter who is a WILD WILD CRAZY drunk. 

I have been here before every time you step into to rescue them when they are in a volatile environment they throw themselves overboard again. ( sigh ) The reason she got this job was I stepped in ( huge fight another broken window lucky we don’t have plaster board walls but the wood took a pounding ) to make her go to school,( she only has to go one day a week and can study from home to finish her final year.  

She did understand I was trying to help her though and after the dysregulation, the next days sent of twenty resumes for work and started back at school. When I stepped in I was fairly sure she had started doing crystal meth an was staying up all night sleeping all day and though at the moment things are far better she has however placed herself ( unsurprisingly ) in a very high risk situation leaving me to field again.

Her psychologist was of the opinion I would have to let her crash and burn before I could help her and do the white knight thing and I find myself wondering if I am just adding extra rungs to the ladder and making the inevitable crash worse? 

Regarding who can talk to her she is very independent ( in a teenage BPD way ) her mother was going to talk to her ( but has not stepped up yet ) an it is one of those situations a sideway approach is best ( head on will cause dysregulation and push her into the arms of her new friends (sigh )).

She probably listens to me more than anyone but I find I have to keep my powder dry and strike while the iron is hot to get any lasting results.  

No doubt, driving this to a conflict is not going to help matters - she'll shut down.

Has there been a conversation?  Has she told you that she is doing this?

Thanks Skip been pondering your in and out reply. She left for work at 5PM today ( early ) so she could "practice " some pole dancing. She has basically told me the only reason she isn't dancing yet, is she is working her boyfriend around to the idea.

It seems only a matter of time before she is dancing. Educating her on how to manipulate people an get in and out is a sensible and pragmatic approach of which I am normally an acolyte.

However her mother was a paragon of excellence in these respects and in retrospect honing her abilities in strip clubs was part of this. Contributing significantly to the reason I am the only surviving long term partner of her mothers ( step daughters father suicide two others slid into shattered lives hard drugs an early deaths ). I suspect there are several more I don't know about.

My stepdaughter is deadly ( literally ) dangerous already and seeing her follow in her mothers footsteps sends cold shivers down my spine.

Thank you Skip for editing my last post punctuation is something I am bad at  an i appreciate your time is valuable. For all those others who take the time to decipher my posts, apologies.

How so?


Her boyfriend may be an ally in this.

Keeping her grounded is a place to start. I think someone earlier mentioned having an exit strategy.  I mentioned having a greater goal (like setting money aside for education).  

Painting a picture of how women have been devoured by this may also help if you can do it in a non-threatening way.

If you can find someone that did this and is will to council her, that might help. Short of that, maybe this book may help:

(http://www.d.gr-assets.com/books/1348712361l/15867947.jpg)

(https://bpdfamily.com/book_review/images/locate.jpg) (http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?keywords=0987997602&new_used=&lang=&st=sh&ac=qr&submit=&ps=bp)

I am step-mom to 23BPDSD who is a recovering addict, employed and doing, for the most part, pretty well in managing her life. Not perfect by a long stretch but almost on a par with many kids her age who have been slow to get their life going.

The one thing I've noticed is that her self-esteem (and the boosting of it) has been the single most important thing in her continued improvement in mental health. When she has those few and far in between moments where she looks at herself and finds someone she can truly take pride in, those moments set her up for success as she progresses. It builds and helps her grow.

As her Dad and I give her council, an identification of her authentic, unmasked, unencumbered self gives us a platform to build on with her. It also gives her a platform of her own from which to stand.

It took many years of trying everything with her before she herself decided to get sober and the therapeutic benefit of the programs she has been involved with have been an unexpected but decided bonus. These things gave her a place to begin gaining control of her life to make it manageable.

I don't know how to get these horses of ours to the water and have less of an idea of how to make them drink so I am not ready with advice as to how to accomplish any of this... .

Imagining your advising your SD to figure out how, if she's going to do it anyway, to use stripping or dancing to her own advantage just doesn't feel right to me. My fear here is that she will get involved and have a plan BUT that her self-esteem will get further sucked into a vortex from which there is no return.

I am suspicious that it's never really ok to be objectified, even if you've found a way to control how other people respond to objectifying you. All of the motivations seem to come from a place of low self-esteem on the part of the girls and some general overall misogyny on the part of the men.

My fear for your SD is that the world she is entering is far out of her abilities for coping. Consider the dysfunction that leads to getting something positive from this sort of lifestyle and who she will brush up against?  With so many people around her "on the take" where would she find normal from her peers?.

SlyQQ, maybe you have already said it a million ways but I hope somehow your SD hears the message- "I've heard read etc. things that make me feel afraid this might not be a good lifestyle for you. What other things can you imagine yourself doing for a living? How can I help you reach that goal (with boundaries maintained)?

Or something like that.

Thursday

Dear SlyQQ,

When I put myself in your shoes and your daughter is my daughter... .I ask myself what would I do to stop this in it's tracks? The answer... .everything I can.

I would attempt to redirect her to a more positive course of action.

I would let her know I believe she is worthy of respect and adoration because she "is" and not because strangers lust after her.

I would offer her more support in any way to not do this.

I would attempt to put roadblocks up to prevent her from taking this job.

I would take a hard look at myself and ask myself where I may be enabling her to take this position.

In other words this is not acceptable to me because it is unhealthy for my child. 

I am the one that has to look at myself in the mirror everyday... .and I don't want to see regret when I do.

Once I have truly done all I can, I have to let the rest go.

God Bless and prayers for your stepdaughter are being offered up.

lbj

I think I suggested this first and I want to say that I share you fears. My statement is along the lines of "if she's already jumping out of the plane, offer her a parachute".

I agree with you wholeheartedly that this is not a world for an emotionally immature girl, with a personality disorder and with a drug history. Even with the parachute, is high likely is she to strap it own after the frenzy of money and drugs starts?  The word "meth" which was mentioned a few posts above makes a very high risk world.

Clerly we also risk adding some faux legitimacy to something that is not at all legitimate if we offer the parachute too early.


I think this clearly has to be front line. 

Unfortunately, stuff like this is on the net that doesn't help:

10 Unexpected Perks of Being an Exotic Dancer (http://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/advice/a18188/10-unexpected-perks-of-being-an-exotic-dancer/)

The psychological cost of being a stripper (http://www.realdoctorstu.com/2012/03/12/the-psychological-cost-of-being-a-stripper/)


Its a good list.

I don't know, Skip. Introducing long term goals to someone who is not equpped to understand and utilize the concept may very well be counterproductive. Considering the severity of the symptoms, exacerbated by substance abuse, failure is granted. It will contribute to their shame and already low self-esteem.

She just won't give up the easy source of money, the life without commitments for pursuing something that is completely alien and dreaded by her, while one can easily spend $100 per day just for meth.

With so many people around her "on the take" where would she find normal from her peers?.

I would attempt to put roadblocks up to prevent her from taking this job.

Good points. Eventually, the deeper she sinks, the bleaker prospects she'll going to have for therapy and series of "benevolent" codependents keeping her away from self-destruction.

One of the hardest situations I came along here. Playing into the punitive parent may force her to flee, while enabing is esentially green light for a lifelong mistake that will further deteriorate her situation.

I would contact with a T for evaluating the situation.

This was the psychologist's opinion, I believe.

There is a lot to respond to here.

Initially regarding enabling her. Basically I see this as a problem of disabling her she presented me this job initially as a bar tending job only revealing its was at a dancing bar when she was offered the job. Which scince I was very much pushing her to get out an about an look for work to augment her school work had painted me into a corner, ( Which was no doubt her intent )

Also realistically she has now gained a lot of control over her life I can no longer use passive levers such as $ to entice her into appropriate life choices.   On top of this she is doing everything right at the moment , ( went of early this morning to enrol in extra classes at school, exercising reconnecting with some of her second teir friends ( she has lost her two best friends which was unfortunate because I was relativley close with her best friend which helped a lot.)

I have pondered employing a good cop bad cop scenario with her mother ( me good I guess ) but the reality here is that this pandoras box has been opened and it was something that was probably going to happen sooner or later. ( She had done dancing and knew her mother had been a dancer. 

Am under the gun a bit so I will think more an post appropriate responses as soon as practical thank you all.

I agree with others here that said that helping her make stripping work for her will be a bad idea.  It will just allow her to rationalize it to you, herself, and others.  She might think "I'll do this now and save for college next semester".  And next semester never comes.  I'm not a parent, so I'd listen to the parents here.

To add some perspective to this, when initially I moved to get my step daughter out of the house and back at school / work, it was likely my step daughter was firmly on the path to being a regular crystal meth user.

At this moment I believe she has stopped. No guarantees but the club has a ban on drugs/alcohol for workers an I suspect there is some enforcement of this and my SD is adhering to this , but it is something I have yet to ascertain for certain.

The ongoing scenarios I can envisage are:

• Step in now Where I step in directly to stop her current course, it would put me back where i started along with a host of negative consequences. It is hard to foresee anything but her boomeranging back into a genuine meth addiction. Also this has no great certainty of success and either way and would end up with me painted at least a shade of black if not worse and to boot severely hampering my ability to help her if necessary.

• It doesn't work out The dream scenario is she works there briefly an takes up her modeling again (long story ) but this profession is not a whole lot better (drug-wise or morally).

• Step in after crisis Is the most likely scenario I see for me successfully extracting her and that is me waiting for something bad to happen ( a minor assault perhaps ) enabling me to step in and ban her from going back ( again no certainty of success ) As is often the case with BPD i find myself dammed if I do and damned if I don't, hence my current quandary. What i will try an do do regardless is use this respite to get her to reconnect with the church get back to school an push as much positive stuff as I can while the sun shines and keeping my fingers crossed half hoping for a miracle (I am assured they do occur )

POssible outcomes to the given downsides of her continuing working in these clubs (assuming the likelihood of her developing a meth addiction is roughly equal with option 1) are

• Saves money for worthwhile purposes the parachute approach becomes a given

• Sells drugs She could end up selling drugs

• Becomes involved with criminal elements the possibility of her linking up with criminal elements in the clubs it is not that unlikely given the power profiles, some of these people represent it might strongly appeal to her at various times and the predatory nature of some of these people will not help with this. Though in fairness by this time she may have learned more than enough to look after herself.

Not good. No certainty. Lots of bad outcomes. Some glimmers of hope, perhaps.

Thoughts or suggestions anyone ?

Hi SlyQQ

It's good to be prepared and I see you've been thinking about various scenarios.


This is all quite new so at this point I'd say various options are still open including 'dream' scenarios. It's a very unpleasant situation for you to be in as a parent. We got to be realistic about the possible risks involved here and you clearly are. I do still believe there's hope for a positive outcome though.


A day has passed since your stepdaughter left for work. Have you spoken to her since? Has she perhaps said something to your other daughter? And how is your other daughter dealing with this new situation with her sister?

Hi Kw good to hear from you am busy so will have to split this post. Just regarding things in general the situation in this house is generally so crazy if an alien spaceship landed in the backyard it would probably be met with a shrug an a " I hope there friendly." So her sisters actions are nothing out of the ordinary an amazingly enough at this particular moment everyone is pretty happy, so why worry ( her thoughts ) Her general attitude to her sister is she can go ---- herself which given the history is understandable though deep down there is some affection.  - I think.

Not to be a downer, but of course the club has an official policy that you can't use on premises or be high.  Can you imagine a place not at least paying lip service to that?  I'm not trying to take away some of your hopeful thinking, but the reality is that making a lot of money around strippers and the usual patrons is not likely to keep someone out of trouble with drugs, just in general.  I'm not trying to hurt you, just giving my honest opinion so that you have you have your eyes fully open.

Just been thinking about BPDs and stripping and one thing that has crossed my mind is how do they last in that enviroment?  I cant see it as being the most stable workplace so would expect a lot of falling outs. It is also an enviroment where having other attractive women around might be seen as a threat.

My ex wife had no friends that could compete with her in looks. My exgf was similar.

I just dont get it. Everything I thought i knew about BPD is kind of turned on its head in this enviroment.

This is a very dark world hidden from public view. Not a place for someone you love and care about.

I hope that you will do everything within your power to keep your daughter from going down that tunnel.  

I will continue to pray for you and your daughter... .hope you are too!

lbj

I'm going to be direct here because it matters in light of the original post.

This is not about you and your path in life.  I get that it would not be productive for you to feel bad about something you did and so an opinion that might make you feel that way, if you took it to heart, might not be welcome.

Having said that, you stated that only around 15% or so of strippers are well adjusted.  That % I think would drop if you considered the entire range of clubs out there.  Regardless, even if that % stays the same, you have basically told us that stripping should be a red flag.  If less than 1 in 5 strippers are okay to be in a relationship with (well adjusted), then that makes stripping a red flag by definition.

Also, having something be a red flag is not the same thing as "harshly judging".  "Judgment" is not a bad word.  It is absolutely necessary for humans to evaluate each other in order to even survive.

Given what you wrote about the lifestyle and company, it would be irresponsible to not advise someone against stripping.  That is not judging strippers.  It is simply the consequence of what you wrote.  It is like not wanting to advise someone against free climbing (no rope) because some free climbers make it and you don't wish to come off as judgmental in relation to the practice of it.

To be clear if there was a reasonable way to successfully stop her dancing I would and I am definately open to suggestions. ( Her mother is also unequivocally of the same opinion ) Making the best of a bad situation is however looming large.

Rasins thanks the truth is that working in the club will in no way increase her exposure to drugs ( sad but true ) only her ability to purchase them.

Finally worked out what is happening. SD is doing some things that are out of character, (started chemistry (not her) going to school 5 days a week when she doesn't need to ) With teenage girls, this normally means one thing. Her current relationship had definitely reached the unhealthy stage ( he had gatewayed her into crystal meth and it is ten times as hard to stop when there are two of you. )

She may soon paint him and everything associated with him black ( including drugs ). Part of the catalyst for all of this seems to be the dancing ( I had gently weighed in on the boyfriends side to test the waters ).

Stopping the drugs had been my priority for a while but my hands were firmly tied with regards to her boyfriend. Now things are changing so I am going to fasten my seat belt , try and minimize the fallout and let the chips land as they may.

I guess I will address the problems that might arise later as they come. Say a prayer for me.

Thank you all for helping me think this through,

I don't understand what you are saying. "Chemistry"?  "Gatewayed"?

Earlier you said she was off the drugs and trying to convince her boyfriend of the dancing... .

My SD has mysteriously started doing Chemistry at her school. AND she is now going five days a week,These actions are contextually very unusual and makes me think there is another reason for such Skip, from past experience i have found I can normally attribute such things to boys one way or another. I believe my SD has currently stopped with the drugs but the one who introduced her to using ( gatewayed ) on a regular basis was undoubtedly her current boyfriend, who is still on the scene and represents a grave risk to her sobriety.

Because of her obsession with him there was little I could do about this but now i am sensing a change in the wind. They were becoming very unhealthy for each other and though I view the possible coming breakup with trepidation I believe it will be good for both of them and the opportunity for my SD to turn over a new leaf.

My apologies for the cryptic nature of the previous message.

Sounds like she has her eye on someone else. BF could be out of the scene soon with any luck.

Lets hope that this new direction keeps going.

All the best.

EM

Still not following. She is doing this to be with another guy?  She is doing this to have access to laboratory equipment and glassware?  She is taking life more seriously?

Why are you seeing that signals the relationship is failing?

Sorry Skip no My SD is not good! at chemistry an not capable of cooking meth. There is either someone else on the scene or my SD has seriously started looking about . The Dancing has also caused some friction in the relationship but the nature of the fighting has cooled remarkably. Previously quite often the police would be called by the neighbours durring there fights but other than a few slammed doors it has been relatively quiet ( paradoxically indicating she doesnt care so much anymore ). Things are definately changing and I hope it will be for the better.

This may be a case where BPD actually helps her Sly.  My ex would morph into whomever she was with, take on a boyfriend's hobbies, vices, taste in music, all as part of mirroring and taking on a persona that may make her feel whole.  The worst for me was when she was around her teenage daughter, whom she respected and feared; she would morph into a bratty teenaged girl so I had two of them to deal with, pure hell.

Anyway, if your SD got attached to a meth head who favored strippers, the behavior makes sense.  Now if the disorder were to play out such that he needs to be the scumbag and devalued for her to deal with her emotions in the current BPD cycle, and by chance attaches to a straight-A Chemistry nerd, she may be flushing the meth down the toilet and buying a white lab coat.  Becoming who she's with because she doesn't have a strong sense of self, we all do that or have done that to some extent as we find our way in the world, and a borderline does it to the extreme, it's not the end-all of course, better to take a break from relationships and 'find herself' for a while along with help, but in this case it may help.  Just my hallucination, apply as needed.

Hi There,

I know how difficult this situation is as my own daughter went through incredibly high risk and destructive behaviors for a long time.  I tortured myself trying to get her to stop until I starting learning through my own recovery that the only way out of the suffering was acceptance of something I can do nothing about. Years later, it's working out wonderfully. It seems you are doing a great job of acceptance.

In my experience, the best thing you can do is to be vulnerable and let her know you are afraid that she will be hurt because you care so deeply.  It's so difficult when we feel so powerless, but the truth is you do have a choice in how you respond. 

It seems to me that the number one concern is her personal safety and that you can have a little say over.

Let her know that no matter what, she has a life line to you in the form of your phone number and that any time she is afraid, she can call you and you will be there to insure that she is safe.  That if she reaches out to you, you will not let anything bad happen to her.  That you feel their are other options in life for her that would be better for her and meanwhile she has a safe haven.  Doing your best to make her feel safe and loved is the very best thing you can do for her. 

Her critical voice is running her life and behaviors so your non-judgmental presence will soothe that.