BPDFamily.com

So, we had a reasonable discussion for a while this morning.  Daughter is sick over at her parents house, sort of in quarantine.  When I wanted to care for the girls today, things went off the rails.

I said I would like to care for the girls (D5 and D2) today as my plan for the day didn't include any power tools or other work that would interfere with care, plus it would keep them away from sick daughter (d10).

She said she would not allow me to care for kids because I have not been listening to her and I'm acting the way I did before social services removed me from the home a couple years ago.  (her version of story)  What actually happened was a voluntary agreement was signed where I lived with my parents and we were required to "comply" with our counselors.  I had a place to go (my parents) she had no other place to go live.  It would have been unreasonable for her to go to my parents.

She also coached kids on what to say, I have that recorded. 

My guess is that she really has never gotten over that "betrayal" and is now going to get even.  I was the one that turned her into social services for spanking the kids in an out of control way.  The investigation was unfounded.  In that state if you don't leave marks the law doesn't allow anything to be done about spanking.

OK, enough of the past.

The basic mousetrap that she has built, and I used to fall for it, is that if I don't "listen" to her, that proves that my PTSD has come back or the problem is mine.  Therefore since I have the problem she gets to make all the decisions and doesn't have to compromise.

Well, she told me that the only reason I wanted to care for the girls was to "provide for their daily needs", that she had the same information I had and "it wasn't going to work".

In other words, she is saying she has been to lawyer and is going to be able to prove she is primary caregiver and not me.

Note:  I know the score, for most of their lives my wife has been the primary caregiver. 

She does say she wants to go to counseling, but it is to "fix" me,   and to get me to "listen" to her (comply).

We have been in and out of counseling for the past 5 years or so, the basic claim is that I have been acting like a dictator and she is no longer going to put up with it.  In other words, she gets to be the dictator now.

My guess is my best course of action is to lay low and not add fuel to the fire until we are in counseling office.  Likely weeks away. 

Note:  She told me all of this is a fairly calm, regulated manner today.  I'm open to suggestions.

FF

I am sorry you find yourself on this side of the board    You sound like you are immensely patient. From what I myself see, your wife has probably been setting up this situation for quite some time. She was the one who wanted to move close to her folks. Who are willing to step in on child care while she works.

She sounds full of intention.

I am guessing you are on the right track in terms of laying low in order to get the counseling and hopefully she will get a reality check from the counseling.

Suggestion #1:  give up on counseling as a process that will change your wife's mind on anything of significance.

She is only interested in making the case that you are in the wrong and forcing your compliance with the counselor behind her.

Odds are that won't go the way she wants... .but she isn't open to self examination or changing her behavior and having a bad counselor teaming up with you against her (Her POV) won't influence that... .if she even goes.

I can't advise what to do, but, it sounds like you are getting hurt in what's going on.  It sounds to me like she is using the kids.  Typical of abusive people - they use people like furniture to support them, or tokens to get what they want. 

You are planning to lay low.  I'd say follow your gut on what to do, and most of all I'd say talk to the counselor alone.  Or, find one you can talk to on your own.  There's more at play than just who takes care of the kids.  Get to where you feel ready for what's happening.

You already know the tools for dealing with your wife... .boundaries... .avoiding invalidation... .you have worked on and got better at validation... .keep at it  |iiii

Her FOO sounds like a toxic influence, but there isn't much you can do about it.

Line up your supporters... .like your parents... .I would advise you try not to have them getting in the middle of a conflict or dealing with your wife or her FOO. Doesn't seem likely to have good outcomes.

You are already documenting things.

Have you visited with a lawyer yet?

If you haven't yet, post on the legal board here. Your wife sounds likely to be high conflict in a divorce/custody battle, and that is something you can plan for here. Those very pragmatic members can also help you find the kind of lawyer that is up to the job... .

Lastly... .I'm really sorry to hear things are escalating this way for you.   it is small comfort, but veiled threats about lawyers are different than legal actions. You haven't been served papers yet.

Did she actually say that she's been to a lawyer, and did she describe a plan to end the marriage? It's not really clear from your description of the conversation. The conflict does seem to be escalating -- but be careful about assuming intent or actions that are unspoken.

She did not say that directly.

I have visited a lawyer.  The lawyer said in this state custody is decided by who provides their "daily care" (exact words).

Those were the exact words she used today.  She then said "you and I both know this and have the same information, I know what you are doing"

So, that is what I base on that she has visited a lawyer in this state. 

Due to timing, papers can't be served for several months.  Lawyer told me that we are in the "wild west" until then.  We both have legal rights to kids.  I could drive over to her parents and get them.  They would likely not give them.  I could bring police over and that is a crap shoot, legally I should leave with kids, but this could also make me look like a  "crazy man".

She has built a nice little mousetrap. 

I'm sad.  I don't feel reactive and have no plans to rush over there and get kids. 

Bottom line:  I want to stay married, but not at all costs.  Over the past several years I have learned a lot more about myself, clarified my values.  I don't need 50% control.  Really probably not even good to take out the measuring stick.

But no control doesn't work.  Boundaries will fix some of this and has fixed some of this.

But in a marriage there are things that are joint and if people can't effectively talk to each other, well, that's not a marriage.

Grey Kitty,

I need to do some thinking on counseling.  All of our counseling experiences have followed a similar trajectory, except the last one that resulted in a couple years of "relative" stability (basically coming out of the social services thing).

If my wife gets in counseling and feels "boxed in" or controlled, well, that is her problem to deal with.  She will either move towards healthier behavior or she will flip out.

The problem I see is what if she retreats to a low level (like last couple years) of BPDish behavior.  Will I accept that and continue the marriage or not. 

Her getting healthier is an easy choice.

Her flipping out is an easy (but sad) choice.    Perhaps I should use the term clear instead of easy.

Thoughts? 

My short term strategy is to keep fuel off the fire and not force confrontations.  Sucks to have to back down, but I don't see any good outcome of adding fuel to the fire today, or in the short term.

FF

So, there are threats happening. What's your experience with her threats in the past? Does she follow through or just make them in an attempt to change your behavior or get a reaction? My wife threatens divorce (and other things) all the time, and she's talked about lawyers, but I don't think she's actually taken any action.

It's wise to plan for all contingencies. I see a lot of conflict and mental energy being expended on potential custody issues. If you do head toward divorce, what would your goal be for custody? What would your wife's goal be? Do you think there's a compromise that would work for both of you? How do your goals align with the presumption in your state?

Yep, I have watched her sister divorce.  Typical high conflict stuff.  Kids are messed up, in large part, because of what they experienced.

If my wife is painting me as the bogeyman, she will protect her children.  She has and will lecture/teach the children that I am bad and her way her family way is good.

Then, when the courts grant me whatever custody I get, they will portray that as them being "gracious" and supportive of fathers being involved.

FF

If neither party can take legal divorce action for three or four months, then would it make sense for your parents to begin to relocate to your new state as well during this timeframe, to redress the balance of power in your relationship? Or would this throw additional flames on the fire?

I guess I'm wondering if you could informally reproduce the environment of the previous "therapeutic separation" you and your wife experienced, where you resided with your (local) parents, near the marital home.

And, as you read the posts, hang on for all the whipsaws and rabbit trails.  We are texting each other at the moment, planning our date night for tonight.

Whatever,

In all seriousness, please challenge my plans if they seem odd or off the rails.

She obviously has skewed thinking at the moment.  So, I will listen, learn and disengage from the weird stuff and will be the best partner I can when she presents the good side of her.

I plan to stay inside the push pull dynamic.  So if she tries to push me away, I will carefully consider any action that may be perceived as pushing her away.  I won't avoid those activities if they are a boundary or are a core value on the line.

If she goes off the rails lovey dovey towards me, I'll go in that direction, but more moderate.

So, hopefully, date night tonight.

Sigh.

FF

Doubtful we could set that up in a matter of months.  I see the thought.

My parents are here but living long term in a hotel.  It is obvious that they plan on sticking around for a while, I'm ok with that.  They have their own life as well.  

Plus, I think there is a bit of a "submission move" going on here.  Or perhaps I am reading to much into it.

In their twisted thinking, they my wife and her father have announced (actually said the words) that this is their house and they will do whatever the eff they want.  

It's likely a control thing (duhh, ).  Well, I know me and I know my Dad.  There is about zero chance that he will ever agree to any sort of set up where my wife and kids stay in his house and I have to go sleep somewhere else.

Especially when her parents house, that she was living in is a few blocks down the road.

There is no way legally for her to force that as well.  

I'm fine with using tools and presenting things in appropriate ways for pwBPD.  I'll do the best I can.  

But, you guys kinda know me here.  My Dad is similar guy, much quieter but likely with more resolve than me.

There never will be a piece of paper that defines the relationship of this house to me or my wife.  Not because we don't want to give legal control to her (which we don't) but because that's not how we do business with family and close business associates.  

Talk, agree, handshake, do,  (it's worked for 4-5 generations, a disordered person or family is not going to change that)

FF

I see.

I was wondering if your parents were driving six to eight hours each time they came to see your family. But instead they have already got themselves a perch in your new location, and of course the new marital home is legally their home.

A much different family position than the one I thought you were in.  |iiii

How is she the primary caregiver if the kids are at her parents' house while she is at work?

It seems like a good time to think about what your bottom line for a marriage is. What are the non-negotiables for you to be in? What are your core values or defining boundaries?

Personally, I don't think it would be a good thing for you to leave without the kids at this point because of the way it looks to the legal system. That could turn out very badly in the long term. Documentation is your friend at this point. Do you know what the criteria for abuse in your current state are?

For the entire time the family has been in this new state, the "primary caregiver" has been you, hasn't it?

Hey FF,

It's been awhile brother since we've been on the same post ... .we've shared a few ideas before ... .after all you've been at this for 5 plus years. I don't need to remind you that BPD is the mental behavioral illness and nothing in the life of a BPD is EVER going to make sense. You know all of this, it isn't new.

BPDs need to have some sort of control in the relationship and she's trying to enforce this on several fronts, but as you said you've seen this tactic before. I'm not sure what your asking for brother ... .are you asking how to handle her demands?  You've been down this path before more then once in the last 5 yrs so I'm sort of confused.

You mentioned, "ue to timing, papers can't be served for several months.  Lawyer told me that we are in the "wild west" until then."  This sounds like a state"Common Wealth" I was stationed in back east & your right it's the wild west there. I have a couple of buddies that it took years to get divorced there because of the law about living under the same roof or not for months. It's insane the hoops  you have to jump through ... .no pun intended.

You also said, "Her getting healthier is an easy choice."  You've also know from these forums, research, 5 years of therapy, things you've read that those who suffer from BPD are highly unlikely to ever really live a "normal life" even with decades of professional therapy & mood stabilizers as in the case of my exBPDgf.  I have a long time friend who is a clinical physiologist who I DIDN'T tell I was in the death throws of a BPD relationship during a conversations we were having over a cup of coffee. She conducts a group session for those who suffer from BPD. She told me, " I don't feel sorry for them, "BPDs" but I sympathize for them. They are seriously broken human beings who will never get healed, even with a lifetime of good mental health therapy and maybe some mood stabilizers".  I've had other Ph.ds & therapist tell me essentially the same thing ... .so I learned that no matter how much I loved & truly cared for her I was NEVER going to be able to help her.  In the case of those who suffer from BPD, "Love DOES NOT conquer all".

I know you suffer from PTSD as do I ... .& EMDR really helped me to managed it better then other therapy. But if you don't rage or other negative consequences from it, it shouldn't play a role in legal matters.  I know you said you want to stay married ... .BUT not at all cost. So on your journey of self discovery YOU have to come to a choice where that line is ... .no one here can tell you nor would we tell you where that line is.

Sit down with a cup of coffee or some other beverage of choice with some good music that you like and relax ... .then start to ask yourself questions. Why do you love her? I mean really why did you fall in love with her and then do those things present in the relationship now?  oes she make you happy? Are you excited to see her at the end of the day or are you afraid in the back of your mind what will happen when the door opens?  o you share the same goals in life for a happy couple? Do you share the same interest like watching sports, hiking, going out to breakfast on Sunday's or for a afternoon matinee? Are you on the same page when it comes to the girls education and overall well being?  o you have the same desires to explore life now and when you retire?  o you look forward to waking up next to her every morning or are you the first to get out of bed? Do you have great conversations over a cup of coffee, dinner, or just sitting around in each others company or do you try to avoid all conversations to avoid confrontation?  No marriage is perfect and couples have different interests ... .hell thats normal ... .but  you have to share some things in common or like you said, "if people can't effectively talk to each other, well... .that's not a marriage."   If you're honest with yourself ... .what are the answers to these questions and then what is your battle plan to move forward to live YOUR life?

You have 2 very young girls ... .as they get older what will they see when you & her interact? Will they see two loving and caring parents in a mutually respectful relationship that they'll want when the time comes or will they see something very different?  If you're honest with yourself ... .ask yourself how is your mental and physical health during the last 5 years?  The same? Worse? Or is it better?  I watch my father die before the age of 50 from his short life with my BPD mother and now I see her s/o declining health after years of mental, emotional and physical abuse.

My mother was BPD & I am the care giver / codependent because of it. When I took the deep dive look into my life and how I got here I had to come to the realization that she is the reason I was the way I was. I avoided conflict at all cost so not to wake up her sleeping flying monkey's. I learned to walk on eggs shells ... .then as I got older without realizing it I look for those same characteristics in a s/o ... .which nothing good came from that. I'm aware of my tendencies to look for that kind of relationship and the warning signs of BPD now. I've learned to take care of MY needs too ... .to say NO to my BPD mothers demands or "crazy request".  I don't go chasing her flying monkey's anymore when she lets them out of their cages ... .it's HER responsibilities to do that.  

I'm responsible for MY happiness just as YOU are responsible for YOUR happiness and NO ONE else. If YOU don't take care of YOUR needs who the hell will?

No one here is judging you for your choices or decisions FF ... .we're hear to listen to you ... .give you a hand up when you stumble and let you know what did or didn't work of us in our journey. But this journey of self discovery is yours alone to walk ... .you can continue down this path your on ... .take the fork to the right & see where that leads you or you can sit down right where you're at and do nothing ... .the choices is YOURS and YOURS alone brother.

I wish you the peace that you seek ... .and the strength you'll need on your journey ... .stay safe ... .

JQ

Yes, you have got it.  They came up a week or so after we started here "full time"  Brought us some stuff in a u-haul.  It was a bit up in the air how long they would stay and I knew better than to try and pin them down.  Dad and Mom have their way of working that stuff out.

Anytime I have ever asked them to be somewhere, they have honored my wishes and same thing if I have asked for space. 

My Dad and Mom have a history of taking tightly defined trips with an agenda, and the schedule is met.  They also have a history of saying they are going to go somewhere "for a while" and I know better than to ask detailed questions.  My understanding is that Dad is the planner and schedule guy and Mom likes flexibility.

FF

Good question, I'll ask.  So, answer is no.

And, while my wife talks a big game.  Corporal punishment is gone from our house.

FF

Let's work backwards.  If you do divorce, what custody arrangement do you want?  :)o you want full custody where mom visits the kids?  Kids live in both households?

Once you determine your goal, what steps do you need to take now to make it likely that you will reach that goal?  Maybe you should develop a plan with the lawyer where you do pick the kids up from the grandparents.  It could look like the following.  :)iscuss with lawyer.  :)iscuss with police.  Show up at grandparents house and pick up kids.  If grandparents resist, call the police to enforce.  Also, can you legally restrict grand parents access to kids, i.e. they can only provide care when you give permission?

In any custody battle, it sounds like she will paint you as a dangerous man suffering from PTSD.  Are there actions that you can take to counter that perception?  Psychological examinations that give you a clean bill of health, maybe?  It also sounds like you will have to paint her black as well.  Can you prove that she has BPD?  The court, knowing that they are dealing with BPD, may be more resistant to her efforts to paint you black.

Yes, BUT.

They could spin an argument that she and her parents have been because majority of time the D5 and D2 have spent over there.

Not because I can't, but because I have been doing lots of things during the day that would not be possible with little ones running around.  Saws and such.  So "the deal" was set up when on good terms.  :)5 also gets taken to pre-school each day.  Her parents drop off and pickup.  It's an hour task each day.

So, when kids are around, yes I cook, laundry, homework and all that.  My wife does homework as well.  She does bath-time with little girls and tends to get the dressed in morning.

OK, listen.  I've kept the girls before.  I can get their hair up and get the out the door presentable, but I'm nowhere near as good as my wife or D19 at getting that done.  "hair things" still frustrate me.

Even when I was working and she was home we were both involved in care of kids as were olders in the house.  With 8 kids running around, 1 primary caregiver is a fantasy.

But, back to question, right now I am stay at home dad.  I have an interview coming up that I am hopeful about (I'm curious how I got that interview, if my wife's claims that I am not doing anything to look for a job are true), in fact, my first interview is with my top choice.  Fingers crossed.

And, nope, I'm done working for boards and as a public figure.  This is an executive position with a company that is rated highly as military employer, they actively search out officer types like me.  I've had a conversation with them, but not a formal interview.  They have told me I will get a formal interview, but it is not scheduled yet.

Fingers crossed.

FF

Likely outcome of divorce is joint legal custoday and primary custody for her. 

About zero chance that it is possible to "blacken" her enough (not that I would want to) in order to "take the kids" from her.  I suppose she could have a meltdown and that would change.  But as of today, not possible.

About zero chance I can be painted black enough to restrict my parenting time.  Again, that is with what is on the table now.  It is likely they would go down this path if they feel "not in control".

I would want to have more than 50% time.  That is what I want and think I deserve.  However, that's unlikely to happen.

FF

Maybe you could ask some senior guys over on the Legal board (ForeverDad, Matt, others) how--and how quickly--this can happen.

JQ,

Hey man, thanks for the input.  Some of this may be wishful thinking on my part and some may (as I would argue) be grounded in fact and observation.

My wife has demonstrated the ability to get better, I know other stories on here where that is not the case.  

We had 15 years of what (to me) was normal marriage.  Perhaps, some stuff was masked because I was in and out with Navy, but I also had shore duty in there and was around for long periods.

Unlikely my wife is diagnosable with BPD.  Also, paranoia seems to be primary thing.  :)oubtful she is diagnosable with PPD either.

Roughly year 15 (of marriage) we are out of home for 6 months, my PTSD (undiagnosed) came into full bloom as did her behaviors.  I spent a couple of years doing everything wrong due to ignorance.  

So there is some guilt there.  There is also a strong sense of the way things should be and you don't leave your wingman behind, you don't leave an injured comrade on the battlefield or in a fire.  I get it this situation is a bit different, but there is part of me that doesn't want to "abandon" her.  

I do have the utmost love, respect and admiration for what she has accomplished and devoted her life to.  Even if that quest to raise awesome kids and be a great mom has morphed into something dysfunctional.  I KNOW it didn't start that way.

In much the same way that I didn't set out to join the military to get wounded and end up disabled.  She didn't marry me with that intention, but that is what she is faced with.

I can give some time for things to straighten out/get better.  But if the past couple weeks are an indicator of the next couple years, well.  My health can't sustain that.

Also, I did get the "pick of the litter".  It would seem that is is some bad stuff there.  Note:  I would not have stayed married to her sister as long as my ex brother in law did.  No chance.  Also would not have stuck it out with the mom.

So, my understanding of my situation is that it doesn't look good, this looks planned, it looks like a submission move.  I also know that if any of the women (in this family) would capitulate or give up the boundary busting, give up the extinction burst, it would be my wife.

Perhaps that would be a goal of counseling, to get us talking to each other and get the rest out of the relationship.

There is hope, but right now it looks kinda thin.  That makes me sad, but it doesn't feel like the end of the world.  A few years ago, I think it would feel like end of world.

FF

I admit I am jaded... .

I wonder if she has been planning to leave for a while.  It could explain her frustration over you not working could be her wanting you out of the home so as not to have primary caregiver role and also to have you have a more established income for child support calculations. 

I suppose that is not so helpful.

I find it amazing/admirable how well you are doing keeping your cool and managing things!

formflier, am I just paranoid (well, I know I'm at least somewhat paranoid by now because I am married to a paranoid schizophrenic  :)) or is this message yesterday from your wife highly significant?


ff wife: . . . you are completely unreasonable and unstable the children are telling me they are afraid of you again 7:49 AM

ff wife: You did not listen to me last time things begin escalating you are supposed to listen to me when I tell you that you are not OK if you refuse to do that I cannot make you but that is what you said you would do if we allow you back in the house with us 7:49 AM

ff wife: Please think about this carefully and pray about this I know I have been 7:50 AM

About a year ago, my husband had a couple of pretty serious physical incidents with me. I didn't think that a full-on separation was a good idea based on the likelihood of him running/ abandoning our marriage, but at the same time, I couldn't go on with things like they were. So, I drew a hard boundary that was pretty soft in comparison to what should have happened. It was enough to make it clear to him that I was serious, but he still had me in his life. During the past year, I have found out that he has investigated the divorce laws and whatnot (although, not quite as detailed as I have). He said that he was looking so that he could protect himself from what I might do -- and would have if anything had crossed the line.

All that to say, it is a fine line that we walk in dealing the crazy thinking that goes on inside our pwBPD mind. It is hard because they can seem perfectly normal and all of the sudden things can shift.

Deep down, how attached is your wife to you?

That is so hard to tell.  I really do believe she cares for me and I know that loyalty is a big thing to her and in her mind the social services thing was me being disloyal to her and seems to have no capacity to see it as me being loyal to kids.

That being said, I can see and argument being made that she is more attached to her kids than me.

We have been through several rounds of biblical counseling and parenting classes and have found it hard to sustain the practice of happy marriage produces stable children.  We will follow the guidelines (which I enjoy) of focusing on each other first and then sending "leftovers" to kids (basically putting the marriage first) and then it will turn into me asking/pushing her to maintain that course as she makes choices to spend an extra time here with this kid or with that one.

Note:  I do get it that kids are here for a while and then gone, so I get the "pull" of wanting to spend time with D2 and D5, I really do. 

Quick FF funny story:  About a year and a half ago I met (then aged S18 and S13 out with D1).  They drove and brought her to meet me.  People in the next booth over tapped me on the shoulder and asked me if that was my first grandbaby,   (Assuming S18 was dad I suppose).   :) 

Anyway, I do think she loves and cares for me.  She believes that her love is expressed by "correcting" my behavior. 

Sigh,

FF

My course of treatment with PTSD was amazing and successful.   I am very deliberate about disengaging when I am not in "top form"

While this affects me, it's not about me.  If someone says "you think blah blah blah" and I don't think that, I used to get defensive.  Now I try to validate and hope they enjoy their point of view.

Honestly, it really doesn't matter the motivation.  It could all be over in a poof in a couple of days or this could continue for a while.

I think it is incredibly important that I am able to compromise and talk properly, but also that on the big issues about boundary control that I not capitulate and do intermittent reinforcement. 

It frustrates her (she says this) that I am so consistent in boundary enforcement (walking away, etc etc).  This all may be a "test" for something as well.

Anyway, thanks for the compliment and I'm generally happy with me as well.  That first weekend where I went to a hotel 2 nights in a row, I was pissed as myself for "spending" so much of my sleep down earlier that week that I didn't have reserves.

Other than that, I'm not remembering any big blunders.

Oh, not really saying it is a blunder but if faced with the TV thing again I am keeping a pair of lineman's pliers (electrical work tool) in my dresser.  If 1 am comes around and people crank it up and tell me to effe off I will stay calm, ask nicely if they persist I will snip power cord and return to bed.  Important I stay calm.

Sigh, really wish I didn't have to think through these types of contingency plans.

FF

This is the mousetrap.

Only way to prove I listen is to do what she says.  I don't obey, therefore I don't listen. 

She believes that my moving back in after DSS and family therapy made some "deal" that she can control my actions if she deems PTSD has returned.

I do try to validate that it is frustrating to not be heard.

FF

Make the pliers less exciting if you need them. Unplug. Clip. Walk off with pliers and cord tail. (Instead of clipping live to make sparks at least and possibly blow a fuse.)

I get how satisfying this could be, but it strikes me as an unrealistic fantasy that could actually escalate a tense situation.

The scenario is... .

It's late at night, FF is trying to sleep, and a TV is blaring in the adjacent room.

FF steps outside, asks for the TV to be turned off or down. Family members in the room refuse. There may be some arguing or confrontation here.

FF produces a tool and breaks the TV.

(At this point, the fantasy kicks in... .)

FF goes back into the bedroom and goes to sleep. Family members gape at each other and sheepishly, quietly withdraw.

The belief that clipping the cable is the "last word" in the conflict is dangerous. After FF makes this escalation, it could go in any number of directions, many of which result in FF not getting the desired sleep, some of which involve physical altercations or police intervention.

An intermediate step that doesn't involve a repair bill is to take out the cutting tool, but only unplug the TV and say "next time I cut the wire."  They can still plug it back in at this point if they want to escalate, but it might make them less angry than if you actually cut the wire.

This is what I fear. And, in fact, I think your wife has already been pretty specific in telling you what she is going to present to police / court as her story if you choose this sort of escalation:

Husband is unstable. Has been unstable before. Has been removed from the home before. Children are afraid of him. Instability has returned and increased.

If she follows this at any time with a call to police and an assertion that you have threatened or assaulted anyone, you could wish you had been even more prepared (much more prepared) than you are at this time.

Please be extra careful at this time, and ask the dads on this forum who have had to endure a night in jail or supervised visitation with their kids how this happened to them.

It might not be a bad idea to pay the police a visit so that they know your story in advance of any such call.

The above is one important action recommended by a number of men who have been through this type of experience.

Yes. And damage to property is an escalation (in the eyes of the law) above verbal conflict.

Okay, that makes sense. It sounds like her attachment is probably strongest to the kids, especially with her actions of late, and you might be expendable. Do you have documentation of your previous DSS interactions and the process that they recommended? That could serve to refute her allegations that you were 'unstable' and were removed from the home. She may really dislike that you have documentation backing up your encounters, but it's important to corroborate your story.

I would recommend the more experienced men-folk, too. It can be challenging for men to be presumed to be innocent in the protective services area. Whatever she says is likely to be believed until proven otherwise. Recording of interactions can help to support your position. They've got experience with that kind of thing.

Property damage can be considered physical expressions of abuse -- especially if people decide to say that they were afraid when the damage occurred.

I was thinking of electrical safety... .and I'm going to set that aside for now.

The point that property damage looks bad in the eyes of the courts makes it just too bad a risk.

I'm afraid that if loud TV is disturbing your sleep, a hotel may well be your best answer.

FF,

Our stories aren't much different brother ... .15 yrs married ... .like you, the perfect storm of issues happen all at the same time or nearly the same time. 2 yrs before I retired from the Navy I received a "work related" spinal cord injury and spent the next 2 yrs in physical therapy 2-3 times a week. I had adjustment issues to some paralysis & numbness in my leg ... .ended up blowing up on someone senior to me. At which point I was pretty much ordered to go to "adjustment counseling" ... .that lead to reliving the PTSD incident where I couldn't save a 19 yr old kid who bled out over me. Scars that i will forever carry with me.  EMDR was the treatment and was pretty successful from all accounts. I'm still angry with the "new normal" of my physical condition ... .but I'm lucky to have what I have. With retirement transition, PTSD, adjustment issues, going from 12 hour days to nothing was more then I thought it was going to be ... .it was much more difficult to transition.  I called someone who retired a year before me to discuss something I had noticed which included her. I told her that a lot of people i knew that retired from the Navy had divorced 12 mths prior to 12 mths after the retirement date ... .she thought about it and said most of her friends fell into that same situation. You could right your Ph.d trying to figure that one out.

My ex is the "pick of the litter" as well with her own issues and sees a therapist to deal with her self discovery journey. And like you my health couldn't take all the negative things from her & my situation that had developed over the last two years and I finally broke ... .I couldn't deal with her negative attitude & issues if I was to survive and learn to live a full life and maintain a positive out look on things.  Nothing I had said up to that point had changed her behavior ... .I had to do what was best for me or I was going to die a slow death mentally, emotionally and physically.  it wasn't easy ... .but I knew it was the best for my own well being.  Yours is a little different with your kids thrown in the mix. But again I ask, do your girls see a healthy example of a mutual respectful, caring loving relationship or will they see something else?

I didn't expect to end up this way either ... .but life deals you a hand and you have to make the best of it. I try to keep a sense of humor, positive energy and tell myself well it's not SERE with water boarding so I'm good.   lol

You said, "So there is some guilt there.  There is also a strong sense of the way things should be and you don't leave your wingman behind, you don't leave an injured comrade on the battlefield or in a fire.  I get it this situation is a bit different, but there is part of me that doesn't want to "abandon" her."    I get that brother ... .I really do and respect your thought process on it.  But when does your reasonability for her actions end and her accepting responsibilities for her behavior and or actions begin?  I commend you on you not wanting to "abandon" her ... .but you're not ... .  are you prepared to sacrifice your health, physical and mental for the rest of your life for a mental illness you can neither control or cure? Are you ready to live a shorter life?  Are you prepared for the consequences that  your daughters will learn from this behavior both your's & your wife?  What are you teaching them about relationships? I can tell you from personal experience I did'n't have the best examples and is in part why I'm where I am today ... .jus saying brother

Stay safe ... .

J

I don't sleep much in hotels.  Especially when there under duress. 

And, it's not damaged, the volume button wasn't working properly, so I decided to repair my property.

FF

 

More later, but the nice one is back,

FF

That's funny, but you do know that a court wouldn't see it that way, right?   :)

I understand. But I'm thinking of what I've read about this kind of high conflict separation/divorce/custody battle on the legal board here, and still think it may be your best choice!

As a man your case for getting anything vaguely even/fair in a custody dispute is a hard one, especially because your wife isn't actually neglecting/abusing the kids. [Other than the spanking incident, which hasn't been repeated, the worst things I've read of are being an inconsistent disciplinarian and parental alienation of you]

How she treats YOU gets a lot less weight, if any... .and her accusations of how you treat her will be off the scale... .and getting this sort of things sorted out in courts takes a long time. And there is some record of PTSD / anger issues you have to consider. I'm not criticizing you--I'm just describing the situation you would find yourself in with a judge.

It isn't fair... .but from the stories I've read there, you are at risk of spending months or even a year with a few hours of supervised visitation on weekends... .and from what I know of you, that is an outcome you would do a lot to avoid!

So I'm going to stick with the recommendation that you NOT escalate to that kind of property damage. Ever.

I am glad the guys commenting here are seeing the situation as serious.

I've seen such sad sights down at my local courthouse, with perfectly pleasant-looking men standing in the halls, looking stunned and accompanied by their parents, waiting for their cases to be called in the domestic violence calendar. They confer hastily with their newly engaged attorneys, stating that they need an order to get back into the house to get their clothes and other essentials. The process of fighting their way back into their own families just beginning . . . .

ADDED: Don't know why I didn't think of this until just now, but is there any chance your wife has already had some meetings with local domestic violence counselors?

 

I still need to process the responses and get back to you guys.

Last night took her and S13 and s7 on a "date night" for a special eatery and movie.  The special eatery was about a 50 minute drive from here, it was billed as an adventure night.  Should have thought through the long drive before agreeing to it.  (I can see everyone shaking their head and saying noo)

Well, about 15 minutes into it she asked a question about some real estate stuff and then starting inferring that I was conducting real estate in a way to hide money, to get ready.  I'm dense, and it was said in such a way that it didn't make a lick of sense, so I genuinely asked her to clarify a statement or a question.  This led to her saying I was hiding money to get ready for the divorce (2 kids in back seat).

Well, I pulled off on a side road and stopped.  She starts saying "if you are going to do something crazy let me out".  I waited calmly for a minute and said.  "I'm not going to take someone out on a date that is suggesting I am divorcing them or preparing for a divorce.  I do not want a divorce, do not want to discuss it."

She claimed she didn't say that and what she said was I "might" be hiding money.

The then says "Take me home, I won't make this mistake again"  (in the old days I would have asked what "this" means).  She accused me of ruining the night, blah blah blah.  I stayed calm.  Heard some sniffling from back seat.

I said "I don't want a divorce.  If you are able to continue the evening without talking about divorce I am willing to continue.  Is this agreeable to you?"

There was some rabbit trail introduction but I fairly quickly got her to say that she would not speak about divorce.  I pulled back on the road and kept going.

She was quiet for a couple minutes and up until then, I was fairly happy with my calmness and responses.

She starts in asking real estate questions (detailed stuff) and I didn't respond. 

At some point she said "fine, you don't want to talk so I won't talk".  (ff turns bad here)

"That's a deal I will take any day of the week, "  I wasn't really triggered or even pissed, more like I got to the point that I didn't care, hard to explain.  Then she starts up questions again, I said "I'll be happy to talk about this in the presence of a counselor.  She asked me how that made sense.  I said well I'm assuming that since that is your position, that we don't talk about stuff until in counseling, that you are ok with me taking your position.

She seethed for a minute or so.

Then I said something about "hey, I thought you promised not to talk anyway"  She said "fine I wont talk", I said "the silence will be glorious, "

Uggg, I've not said crap like that in a long time.  She furiously typed away in her phone for another 20-30 minutes until we got there.  Dinner was slightly tense.  I tried to lead the conversation by keeping topics on boys.  Movie was great.  We all left in good mood. 

Ride home was light and enjoyable.  (in my mind, I'm asking myself if this is real).  We get home and I tell her that I'm feeling pretty good (not tired) and if she wanted to talk we could hang out.  So we laid in our bed but she didn't say much.  After 30 minutes or so of that I said I was going to go run a hot bath and there would be a nice massage in there if she was interested. 

She showed up, long bath, sex and good nights sleep.

Woke up this morning, I could tell she had been ruminating on something for a while.  Last time we did laying around talking in bed I ended up getting chased around with her unlocking doors.  So, I was wary but went with it.

Finally she pops and says "we've got to be a team here.  If you want to drop off the kids at the school bus a couple days a week, I'm ok with it."  And then gave a long explanation that was rational and made sense about why she needed to leave earlier. 

You can imagine my head spinning.  I also figured I would be bold and go for communication while she seemed open.

I asked/explained if she understood why I had a problem with what happened, that when I am told that there is 1 way and only one way to solve something that I bristle.  She stayed calm said but you do that to me all the time via text, you just don't know it.

She shared a time or two and to her credit she listened to my explanation of how those texts were informative and not directive and that I am open to other options.

Basically she took a text saying ":)inner at 6" to mean that I was declaring dinner at 6 and there would be no discussion and no other way.  In my world I text those that aren't around to let them know what time dinner will be happening, based on how progress is going/what I see happening.

As she listened, it was weird.  Like I could see the tension leaving her body.  Almost science fiction like. 

We had productive, relaxed talks about the family, schedule, and stuff for about an hour.  More relaxed hanging out, sex and then got a late start on Saturday.

She is taking some kids to walk in clinic.

I realize nothing is fixed.  I also realize there could be some prior planning here (divorce scheming).

However, changes in her body and posture and manner, I doubt could be faked.  I have never pointed those out to her because I don't want her to try and cover her "tells". 

Dunno, rolling with it for now and will be ready for the mean one to show back up.

FF

JQ,

I get your point and agree it's one thing to charge back into a space that is on fire to get a buddy out and to repeatedly keep going back into that space because after being rescued your buddy keeps jumping back into the space.

At some point you say "good luck with that, "  Naval Aviators tend to have a bit of an off sense of humor, we'd say good luck with that and then find a place to watch,

A southern guy with a pretty strong redneck streak in him with the "hold my beer and watch this mentality" (never good but always entertaining), fit in pretty well in Naval Aviation.

I'm clear headed that this level of stuff can't continue, for a host of reasons.

FF

FF,

I oh I get your humor ... .I'm a P-3 guy & have said many times, "Good luck with that" and had a beer why I watch with great amusement on the issue at hand.  It's what we airdales do ... .no one gets us but another airdale brother.     I watched an LCDR self destruct recently ... .removed from command after more then one tried to give guidance & point the way ... .sometimes you can't save every puppy in the pound ... .it's Darwin at it's finest working ... .

It's good to see you're clear headed ... .for a moment I thought you might be hypoxic & needed some help with your mask   

You got this ... .I like the idea of you bouncing ideas ... .I get that you have to try everything that you can and for that I give you much respect.

JQ

 |iiii I think the whole "date night" trip was something that you executed very well.

If she invites you to something that sounds like it should be fun (assuming no dysregulations!), taking her up on it seems reasonable. Especially since YOU were driving, not her.

Stopping the car and telling her that making comments about your plans to divorce her isn't an acceptable way to do "date night" is also excellent boundary enforcement, and even directly addressed the parental alienation aspect of that particular conversation.

Overall--very good job turning a potential sh*tstorm into a good evening with some tense points.

Side note... .you seem to think that you *should* be able to predict situations where your wife would dysregulate at you, and avoid them without creating another conflict when you do so... .not so much. Her dysregulations have a lot more to do with her internal mental state than any actions or choices you make.

Well, now that you've got invalidation under control, at least... .I'm sure in almost any situation you could come up with a perfect invalidating statement that would set her off!

It is really horrible for the kids to hear that kind of talk from their parent, activates all their insecurities and fears.

I've had to fend off these accusations recently, too, especially as we navigated the whole separate accounts thing and the implementation of that. While I was working and putting my earnings in a separate account, he was acting 'weird' (as he describes) and 'protecting himself' from me by coming up with ways to earn more money and doing freelance work instead of being available for the kids. The fear of abandonment through divorce was pretty powerful in my house for a while -- until my job ended and the trigger stopped.

I took the position that I was not planning to divorce, but if his behavior continued in an abusive manner, I would because I cannot allow him to do that to me or to the kids. (if he pulls the scriptural card, I'm prepared to show him) He has been much better for past couple of weeks, but he did something that activated his shame again and is getting some additional help now.

Sometimes, it takes a while for them to get the things that we say.

One argument of my wife's that I reject is "you do it too!"  My response is two-fold.  One, even if I did do it, that does not justify you doing it.  Don't use "You do it too" as a way to justify your behavior.  If, after we discuss your actions, you want to bring up actions of mine that you feel are wrong and similar, that is fine, but using "you do it too" as a way of deflecting discussion of your bad behavior is not fair.

I am not sure if that would be helpful in your situation or not.  With BPD, there is probably no way that she is going to admit guilt, so if you take away one argument of hers, she will just move on to another one, even if it is more illogical.

Hi FF. One observation and two questions.

Observation: from all her recent antics and not so veiled references to lawyers and divorce strategy, it seems really likely to me that she learned of your lawyer consult and is now terrified both that you are planning to divorce, and that you will get the upper hand. Maybe I've missed this, but I haven't seen you report that you made her aware of the lawyer appt, just that you told her you had an "appointment." I think for most spouses, if they sleuthed and figured out that the "appointment" was a mtng with a family law atty, it would set off massive insecurity. Is this possible? If so, not sure how you can accurately reassure her -- "I don't want a divorce, just have to understand if I am vulnerable if you do" might be the best you can do; maybe others will have suggestions. However, from remarks you've made recently, is "I don't want a divorce" completely accurate? You've said things that suggest if things continue in the recent vein, that could change. I think you may need to do some soul searching before reassuring. I think maybe you really mean "assuming you get back to baseline, wife, I want to stay married." Is that a precondition that can be taken for granted?

Also: the kids. What you've reported recently has got to be unbelievably stressful and painful for them. Is there a point at which that factors into your decision about what to do about the marriage?

Finally: I'm struggling to understand how you can express the degree of hurt and disappointment you share here, then be offering massages hot baths and sex. Your own feelings seem to be all over the place. Your habit seems to be to snatch the good times while you can, and thus live a life of disconnected chapters of enjoyment and warmth which is better than none. But the confusion for her must be significant. Do you really not change your feelings and openness when she says these terrible things about you? Even though you are seeing a lawyer about who kicks whom out of the house etc? Wondering if it may be time to achieve some clarity about how you feel.

I too like p+c wonder where you are emotionally in all of this. What has been taking shape in my mind for a while now is something called incongruity. It is as though you are mirroring your wife's dysregulations in your own reactive behaviour in an attempt to control the chaos. I understand that you are stressed and sleep deprived and have found the return to dysregulated behaviour very challenging.

What I wonder though in moving forward to improving is how you might ground yourself in a way that offers constancy, balance, and congruence to your family through both dysregulations and normalcy.

Below is a somewhat wordy explanation of what congruence means and what makes it important to our personal growth.

Congruence

A person’s ideal self may not be consistent with what actually happens in life and experiences of the person. Hence, a difference may exist between a person’s ideal self and actual experience. This is called incongruence.

Where a person’s ideal self and actual experience are consistent or very similar, a state of congruence exists. Rarely, if ever, does a total state of congruence exist; all people experience a certain amount

According to Rogers, we want to feel, experience and behave in ways which are consistent with our self-image and which reflect what we would like to be like, our ideal-self.

The closer our self-image and ideal-self are to each other, the more consistent or congruent we are and the higher our sense of self-worth. A person is said to be in a state of incongruence if some of the totality of their experience is unacceptable to them and is denied or distorted in the self-image.

Incongruence is "a discrepancy between the actual experience of the person and the self-picture of the individual insofar as it represents that experience.

As we prefer to see ourselves in ways that are consistent with our self-image, we may use defense mechanisms like denial or repression in order to feel less threatened by some of what we consider to be our undesirable feelings.  A person whose self-concept is incongruent with her or his real feelings and experiences will defend because the truth hurts.

Like patientandclear, I also don't understand the horrible treatment followed by sex followed by horrible treatment followed by sex.  But then, I have a little different perspective given my own situation. 

I have not had sex with my husband in almost five years.  His behavior has killed any and all desire for a physical relationship with him.  He is awful to be around and more miserable and negative than I can possibly explain.  He refuses to take accountability for anything (he's never wrong), won't discuss any issue with me, won't go to counseling (I've asked), and he gaslights me and plays other angry, passive/agressive games with me.  Not exactly the kind of person I want anything to do with. 

FF, as much as I hate the way my husband behaves, he can't hold a candle to your wife.  I realize everyone is different and I am not criticizing you.  I'm just saying it's hard for me to understand how you can put aside the bad behavior, especially the damage she is openly and actively doing to your children, and continue with regular sex with her.  I just don't "get it"--pun intended.

I look at it this way.  If there was another person in my life who behaved the way my husband does, no way no how would I seek out a close and personal relationship with them.  I would be civil to them and be around them when I had to be (this describes my relationship with my husband), but I would have no desire for anything else.

And yes, I realize a sexless marriage is not really a marriage.  Mine died long ago.  I come to these boards to get insight into making things better for me as I learn ways to react differently to my H.  I certainly can't fix him or talk to him--about anything.   

Maybe it's just different for women.  I know, for me, I cannot separate the nasty, miserable husband from the one who will flip a switch and be nice if he thinks sex is in the cards.   

I agree on "detailed" issues that we should leave this alone.

But on big picture "precedent" setting things I am more than fine using this argument.

I come at it from the negotiating point of view.  My goal is to create a deal that is fair for both sides.  If I make a deal with you and I would feel treated fairly on "your side" of the deal, then I am at peace with myself.

If you give me a deal and you would not have anything to do with "my" side of the deal because if "feels" unfair to you, then why in the world would you offer me that deal.

I get it that pwBPD might think differently about this, but this is about me and my values.

FF

No, that was her being dramatic about telling me she had an appointment.

I kept my L visit private.  Unless I'm being tracked or watched, she doesn't know.

Also, I get it doesn't make sense to her, but if someone threatens to sue me or divorce me, I check with a L to know where I stand.

That doesn't mean I will do anything.

FF

This has come with some detachment on my part.  I sort of organize it in my head as I'm married to two different people.  There is one that I have an enjoyable r/s with and the other that I enforce boundaries with and keep a wary eye on.

So, when the good times come, I roll with it but stay "inside" the push pull dynamic.  So if she is a 5 in excitement, I'm a 3-4.  Hope that makes sense.

More later,

FF

The sex thing:

So, my military aviation background has a big "compartmentalization" thing to it.  Whatever stuff you have going on you "compartmentalize" it and go fly and focus on getting job done.  Over the years I have backed out of a couple flights, but not many.  So, when she goes off, I get into one mode.  When she starts to turn nice I get into another mode.

Energy management:  You guys have seen me talk about this in my posts to others.  When my wife's behavior is good, I try to "fill up" the r/s with good stuff and lots of my energy.  When she dysregs, I try to expend minimum energy and focus that on boundaries and self care.

I am no where near as close to my wife as I was in the first 15 years of marriage.  I have had to detach a bunch.

FF

In my experience,  sometimes a relationship with a pwBPD is a bit like being a parent. Consistency is important to them as part of the whole trust thing. If I give inconsistent messages,  my husband tends to start thinking that I am as unstable as he is emotionally. He is helped when I say the same things regardless of what he feels; when he is calmer, he can understand things better - but the message doesn't change. There are consequences to what they do and say while they are dysregulated that carry over to regulated times. You can't just throw around the idea of divorce and not have consequences, especially if it comes up in front of the children.  (I just had to do some damage control with my youngest today after my husband pulled out the separate living card last night, and our daughter heard)

I've had to work on having clear boundaries and communication for the past year. When I received feedback about how my boundaries were understood,  sometimes I had to change them to make sure they were consistent.  My husband has started to accept that he does have a problem and is working on what he considers to be the issues.

My thinking has shifted more towards this over the past few years.  It's not what I want, but in some ways it helps me make more sense out of life.  I can totally relate to kids have good days and bad days, even some days that you wonder who they are.  I never expected to think of my wife in that way.

FF

Yeah ... .I really really think she knew (that you were seeing a lawyer).  The timing of the "appointment" convo was too weird.  Plus as I recall you did also mention an appointment, without providing details.  All of her recent acute reactions and sensitivity and needling you about things that connect to divorce, seem likely to be reacting to her sense that you are going there first.  You will have a better idea than we do about HOW she might  have picked up on this, but I really think it explains a lot.

But I think empath is saying that the parent-partner can't swing like the BPD partner swings.  I hear you, above, about compartmentalization as survival strategy.  I get it.  If it was just you in the cross fire, maybe that would be a workable choice.  But the kids are having to watch their parents swing from open warfare (to an extreme extent -- open alienation in front of witnesses, pulling kids in to participate, constantly making kids choose whether they do what parent X says or what parent Y planned, having to listen to divorce threats) to passionate affection.  The compartmentalization that you may be comfortable with doesn't allow the onlookers with the most at stake (the kids) to have any sense of solidity or predictability.

One of the basics of developing trust is consistency, whether it is kids who are 'typical' or those who have deep seated trust issues, even in adults. One of key things that my d is worried about is the moving from one place to the other - stability.  It's also come up with my h as he feels unstable a lot of the time; he appreciates that I'm stable and knows that there are things that I will not back down on. If I were to change the tactics depending on his mood, that would put his emotions in charge which is not a good thing for any of us.

Right now he wishes that I were more willing to change quickly, but I'm not. It keeps the pressure up and seems to be working to get his attention when he is able to think more calmly. 

The pickle that I am in for the short term, is that a move towards divorce would worsen my problem about kids.  It would escalate and follow her sisters model.

The kid thing/alienation will be topic 1 for me in counseling.  We both know the rules, she just can't follow them when worked up.

Patientandclear,

I've had two separate lawyers retained for a while for some other employment law and contract issues.  Some PI work has been done, and once again in my life, I get the joy of spending a lot of time on the phone with lawyers.  (when I had my Navy commands I always had to chat with JAG guys).  Wife knows all this.  She has made some comments about me and my lawyers doing things (they are not divorce lawyers) to prep for divorce.  I don't engage on that.

I highly doubt she knows about the L up here.  We'll see.

FF

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