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Well, we are scheduled to start biblical counseling in two Mondays (Feb29th). 

I have been trying to listen when she wants to talk, she invites me to then talk but then takes active steps not to listen to the answers to her questions.  Such as walking out of the room after asking me why I have a broken heart.

There have been a couple of conversations that were respectful where she rhetorically asked the question, "Is there too much hurt in our r/s for us to heal?"

Yesterday I was put through the ringer at the VA.  Periodic exams about disabilities and status of things. 

Tons of "markers" in my exams that say there is too much stress/toxicity in my life.  I wasn't shocked that my blood pressure was elevated.  I was shocked at the amount of elevation.  Will have to follow up on this over next few days and weeks to try and determine how much of it was due to exam anxiety (which I have NEVER had before, NEVER)

My last dr visit before the move I was still a solid 120/80 guy and that has been stable for as long as I can remember.  I got a peek at the first reading they took and it appeared that both numbers were triple digits.  Pretty sure it was 170/115. 

They didn't let me see readings after that but there was lots of head shaking and wondering about exam anxiety. 

Obviously I will be monitoring this daily for a while to see if medication is needed, I have been deliberate about self care activites, relaxing baths, stretching and light exercise.  I do need to kick up exercise some.

But THE elephant in the room is the dramatic turn of events in my marriage.

I'm certainly going to show up at MC with open mind, ready to participate and all that.  I'm going to craft a message/statement that I am choosing a marriage and life that is free from rage/abuse and where kindness and compromise are hallmarks of the r/s.  That she is free to choose a different life.

I realize odds of this "working" are likely on the low side.  Our r/s has shown the ability to improve, so I realize this is no hopeless.  I also realize that continuing on the same path since rage/abuse showed back up in force after the move is NOT an option.

I have another T appointment tomorrow for me.  I'm sure this will be focus.

FF

Just got back from a pharmacy.  Went to use their self screening machine for BP.  Both numbers were well into hypertension 2 range (the highest range) for that machine.  Ugggg,

I have an appointment at clinic  (not VA) here in about 20 minutes to let them take BP in both arms and then I will discuss with family practice physician.

Was concerned after yesterday, after visit to pharmacy, concern is ramping up to something close to freaking out.

Which I am sure is going to help my BP readings at the clinic.

FF

Buy Omron brand bicep cuff for home.  It sounds like you are going to need to take daily readings and record for best care.

Omron brand is great.  |iiii If you were a 120/80 guy just recently, then this sounds as though it could be your wake up call.

 

So, doc checked me over an no "immediate concerns" (like fall over today stuff) but I have a log and will have to do the daily readings to see what is really going on.

Their numbers were slightly lower and consistent on both arms.  They looked through their history and yep, have always been a solid citizen with "perfect" blood pressure.

So, immediate anxiety level has decreased although my long term "determination" to effect a change (one way or another) in my life.  I still describe it as "I'm not going back" although I acknowledge that I am temporarily "back" in the heat of dysfunction.

Sigh,

FF

FF, I'm sorry that your BP has spiked.    My husband just had this experience a month ago and is now on medication which has brought his readings down to the 100/70 range. He hasn't experienced any side effects from the meds and he has started using my exercise bike and regularly going to yoga twice a week.

I think his BP spike was caused by years of alcohol abuse plus his sedentary lifestyle. He was very athletic in his youth, but with the magical thinking that pwBPD have, I think he believed that physical fitness would carry throughout his life and that he could do (or not do) whatever he pleased and it would all be OK. He's still very sedentary, but he's making some attempts at improvement.

I agree with Sunfl0wer. You should have a BP cuff and Omron is the brand to buy. He bought one last summer at his doctor's suggestion and occasionally took his blood pressure. At the beginning of the year when he wasn't feeling good, he started monitoring his BP and he then bought a wrist cuff when he didn't believe what his bicep cuff was reading--typical BPD denial. (I calibrated his bicep cuff reading against the BP reading I got from the cuff and stethoscope from my EMT training and it was close. Yet he still didn't believe it until his doctor's office confirmed the hypertension diagnosis.) Anyway the wrist cuff doesn't seem as accurate as the bicep cuff.

Nothing like the cold hard reality of numbers for a wakeup call. In your case, you knew your relationship was stressing you out. Now what other self-care strategies can you incorporate to overcome some of the stressors you are facing on a daily basis?

Excellent news, formflier.

I'm gonna bet that now your blood pressure will go down quite a bit, just from this reassurance.

Your post this morning prompted me to use my own Omron cuff just now: 119/71. Nice. However, the last time I went for a colonoscopy, I could feel my anxiety rising and I just knew my BP readings were going to go from bad to worse by the time they wheeled me into the procedure room. And the fact that I was thinking NFW am I going home today without getting this done was making it worse.

160/100. And the doctor was thinking of not proceeding. But then said, "I think you're just scared," and gave me not one, but two doses of fentanyl. What the pressure went down to after that I have no idea, because I went right into a pleasant dream and woke up to a good post-procedure report and a pleasant residual fentanyl glow.

That mind-body connection is really something. :)

My BP story is similar to KateCat's. I couldn't find one of my cats and when I heard snoring, I stuck my hand into the outdoor kitty bed I had built on a shelf in the goat hut, which was curtained off by an old down jacket. I don't know who was more surprised, the sleeping raccoon or me.

Anyway raccoons in this area can harbor rabies. Rabies bites are 100% fatal.

When I went to the "doc in a box" and my BP was taken, it was my usual 90/60. Then when they told me they were sending me to the hospital for rabies vaccine which was going to cost me $2000, my BP reading at the hospital was 140/90.

So yes, emotions can elevate blood pressure quite effectively.

I have what my GI specialist calls "white coat" blood pressure spikes.  He says he has the same reaction, even as a physician!  So what he taught me to do is to ask any medical personnel taking my blood pressure to wait until I can sit and take 5-6 deep breaths.  Works almost every time so that my usual 120/75 reading is taken, rather than a spike of 147/90.

My husband has the home BP kit... .really helps him monitor.

Gagrl, how gratifying to hear of a physician that has "white coat" blood pressure spikes.

I cannot master mine at all in a hospital setting, even with deep breathing. In fact, just thinking about who might be snoring right now in my cat's bed is causing some shift in the force . . .

 

It's interesting the similar stories/life experiences we have.

Growing up I was respectful, but not afraid of dogs.  Even big mean looking ones.  So, I'm a young 22 year old guy going for a bike ride outside a Navy base when some dogs come out to join me.  I was fine with it, talked to them, thought we were having a great time.  Well, the dog was mesmerized with my foot going round and round and deciding to take a taste of FF.  I was a tasty morsel back in those days. 

Blood everywhere, some chunks missing from my leg.  The gate guard at the base was wide eyed as I rode back in dripping blood.  Got fixed up and the flight surgeon told me we had to go get that dog because of rabies.  Or else I would have to start getting shots. 

Luckily, we got the dog and, yep, you guessed it.  He was NOT vaccinated.  So, we chose the course of action to watch him in quarantine for any symptoms and if he showed one bit of a symptom, I would immediately begin treatment.  Luckily, he was fine and I relaxed after the quarantine was over. 

Thinking about rabies is no fun.

I've heard of tons of people with white coat spike, I've just never been one.

My father began taking BP meds when he was in late 60s and his BP is well managed with the meds.

I would rather put off meds for another 20 years or so.

FF

Yep, another similar story, FF. In my early twenties, I lived in an area with huge citrus groves. I was riding my ten speed on a dirt road when out of nowhere, a dog rushed at me and bit my leg. I had no idea I could ride a bike with my feet on the handlebars, but that's what I found myself doing.

And same story, this dog had suddenly appeared in the area and no one knew if he had been vaccinated. He was quarantined and ultimately all was well, but it was unnerving.

I don't blame you for not wanting to be on meds. I know some people have had success with biofeedback and meditation to control BP.

Now I am equipped for doing wild animal rescue if I so choose. I have lifetime immunity from rabies with only a booster shot needed in case I get bit again.

 

If you need anyone for anthrax cleanup, I think I just need a booster and I'm good to go with that.

Remember the days when Saddam was going to Anthrax everyone.  I got pumped full of all kinds of vaccines back then,

FF

Back to the original question, how should you approach MC.  Here are some ideas to consider (or reject):

• Parental Alientation



• She wants to make unilateral decisions



• You do not have PTSD



• Communication on a daily basis without having to wait for a T



• Chasing you in the house and opening doors



• The elephant in the room: both sides preparing for divorce



• Her tactics to try and inhibit your ability to sleep

You also have to consider if playing tapes would be an effective way to get the T up to speed on her lying.  Or if it would just cause her to stop going to T entirely.

[/list]

Is this the person she chose? The two of you will be together. IMHO, if you go in with a list of issues, it is likely that she will too. The two of you will be both making your case with a barrage of complaints to someone who is meeting you for the first time.

He's a biblical counselor but he's not King Solomon. I think I would take a listening stance and let your wife air her concerns. This may not be easy for you as you may think she is painting you black and influencing the counselor. However, underneath her allegations are real feelings that need to be addressed. She needs to be heard. You do too, but I don't know if it is a good idea to get all into it all at once.

At some point, the counselor will want to hear from you. Then, you can say you have concerns and then bring out one that is important to you. I think over time, he will get the picture. He will also probably get it if you both go at it, but I think there is benefit to staying calm at first.

 

Yes, this is the "organization" that she picked.  We don't get to choose the counselor.

We have been through most of the training ourselves at this organization.  Been 4-5 years since last attendance at training.  Also the place where she and rest of the family want to worship.  I am still shopping, and to her credit she is going to other churches with me. 

Generally on Sunday's we go visit a church and then attend another service (contemporary) at this location.  No shock to you guys I'm not a fan of contemporary and prefer "traditional" with hymns and such.

Anyway, my thoughts on the opening will be to restate that this was only place she would go and I readily agreed and ask for her agreement that we stay in counseling there until BOTH of us determine (and the counselor) that we are ready to "graduate".  If she balks I will ask for help understanding that level of commitment. 

Anyway, my guess is at some point I will get a commitment.

She can pick her issue 1.  I will pick parental alienation (putting Daddy on trial in front of kids).  There is no Biblical support for this, she is publicly (with recorded proof) violating the 9th commandment against bearing false witness.  The process is to not only ask the person forgiveness that you have sinned against, but also to participate in restoring the person's reputation. 

It will get interesting really fast, I'm not going to persecute her, but I will not save or "go easy" on her either.

Here is what I am trying to wrap my head around.  She knows all of this.  I have wondered if she realizes this and is wanting to get herself "put in a box" where she has to face it, one way or another.

I am under no illusions that conflict gets better quickly.  My hope is that we can move it to a more private location.

"Accountability" is a big deal in Biblical counseling.  I am 100% fine with recordings and being held accountable for what actually left my lips.  It would be interesting to hear her explain why she would not want to be held accountable for what she has actually said. 

I'm also under no illusions that this is guaranteed to work.  If it falls apart, I don't see how she can maintain her church relationships there.  In other words if she walks out to not come back I see her turning her back on church there for her and kids, which is HUGE deal to her.

Thoughts?

FF

Well... .you know your wife better than any of us. What's your confidence in any of these scenarios?

My experience with MC with a disordered person is that it's not any kind of an orderly give and take. It wasn't about which issue to bring up, or if we could agree to make a change based on any issue. Instead, if I presented an issue, she would throw up a storm of obfuscation.

Let's say the topic was my concern about her raging in front of the kid. I said this was harmful, and I wanted an agreement that it would stop. She would say that it never happened, or it happened so long ago that I was petty to bring it up. She would say that she had to do it because I had done something else first. She would try to change the story so that it sounded trivial. (Me: "She threatens to commit suicide in front of our daughter." Her: "So I said I was annoyed with you ... .big deal." She would counter-attack with an unrelated issue/accusation and turn the topic to that. She would latch on to a particular word I used or facial expression and make that the issue. (Me: "She threatens to commit suicide in front of our daughter." Her: "Threatens? You find me threatening? Are you saying you're scared of me, because that's not at all how you act. He's making this up!"

I actually came up with my username based on someone's description of talking with a dysregulated pwBPD:

You're not supposed to get it if you have a rational mind. Think of it like if someone with BPD spews language at you as if a bag of flour just exploded. You wouldn't be able to see for awhile till all the flour dust settles. Soon as most of it does they either stir up the dust or explode another bag onto you. You can't see anything, you're blind.

I wonder if more important than issues discussed or brought up is attitude of individuals?

If I were in the T shoes... .

I would maybe be looking at the bigger picture in how the couple interact vs the specific issues.  (Unless specific issue is urgent, or abuse)

I may ask myself... .

Are they spewing off complaints about the other?

Are they speaking words and tone that convey love, respect, willingness to work together about their issues?

Are they truly listening or just waiting for a turn to speak?

Are they already checked out and looking for an exit?

Is one of them able to own up to stuff and lead or are they stuck in blaming?

What are the major issues/stresses outside of the relationship that affect it?

Idk... .just rambling off random thoughts... .

Point being... .

Maybe HOW you communicate is more telling than WHAT you communicate?

 

Yep, totally agree.  It will be interesting to see the contrast or if she tries to stuff it and keep it together.

I'm 99% positive I can stay focused, relaxed and non-reactive.  If she starts spewing stuff "at" me, I will engage the T on if I enforce boundaries or if they do.  But will quickly enforce my own boundary and come back in 5 minutes to re-engage.

My top two things are (IMO) abuse/abusive.

parental alienation (and the damage done to kids listening to it) and controlling my sleep, and other abusive behaviors towards me.

My kids are bigger priority.

What counselor and reasonable person can disagree with "keep the argument private and don't call in kids to be part of an argument"  If she claims it isn't happening then shouldn't be a problem agreeing to not do something she is not doing.


FF

A reasonable person would agree. Is that who you are married to?

Nope, but, then she is in her own mousetrap and that will be interesting to watch.

So, you are not "submitting" to the biblical counselor and the Word of God (Bible)? 

This is the place and the only place that you wanted to come to, correct?

That is where it will get interesting and I'm sure I will have some fun posts after that.  And really, that is the point where I don't know how it will go.  I think it will progress rapidly to this point on an issue or two and then, who knows.

Again, I realize that this is not the recommended way (if there is one) to "deal with" pwBPD in MC or in general, but, my attitude is that this is the mousetrap she has built and I won't save her from it.

FF

If I were in your shoes... .

I'd be curious to see my wife's direction and intent of wanting MC. 

I'd worry that if I equally engage and participate along with W then she may use my words as ammo and just respond reactive and trash me to try to triangulate MC on her side.  So in attempt to prevent this and to really HEAR her true motives with MC (and so she cannot later blame me for sabotaging or distracting it) I may stay more of a quiet background presence for most of it allowing her the floor to go in different directions.  Because for me... .  I would really want this opportunity to see if W actually is seeking repair or revenge.

If I had some serious stuff that needed discussing or to be added to MC view of the dynamic (abuse, PA) I may try to find most 'quiet' way to initially bring this up... .so as not to loose my opportunity to see if she does want repair and to not distract her from that goal of hers.  I am keeping in mind... .her complaining can be evidence of wanting to repair... .if after her complaint she is actually receptive to MC in any way.  Yet... .I may need to do a lot of sitting back and listening before such is revealed.

What I mean by 'quiet' is not to minimize it or treat it not important... .but I would first want to ensure if W is able to 'connect' with this MC then that could be a valuable resource in whatever direction things may go.  The effectiveness of MC participation with issues of abuse and PA are only as effective as W continuing to attend.  (Otherwise you can be using your personal T to deal with such matters.). So... .eh... .long winded... .sorry... .  So I may want to mention it after it is asked rather than look for opportunity to push it out there.  Mention it BIFF ... .well, minus the friendly.  And allow MC to process vs emphasizing your focus on it.  If W is willing to return there to MC, there will be plenty of time to continue to bring this up.  It is not a topic expected to be resolved in one session anyway, but more an ongoing thing to address... .so no need to blast her out of the session day 1 with it... .then not have benefits of this potential support.

Summary:  I'd be cautious about W feeling alienated during the session and may behave more quiet than I like so she can feel important, valued and heard... .enough to return.

Ps... Good on you for preparing boundary enforcement in MC!  I wish I thought if that yrs ago!

I think you totally missed the point of my experience. Your logic trap is useless against someone who doesn't play by those rules.

 

Yep, I get where you are coming from.  I will take my cues from the MC about who goes first and all of that.  Not going to be dramatic or overstate.

In fact it would probably be more like "I would like to find a solution to keep our children out of the marital decision making and conflict"  or perhaps just use marital decision making.

Here is the thing.  I have no interest in blasting her out of the water on day 1.  But if she blasts herself, I'm not jumping in front of the bullet.

I'm really curious to see how she presents, because I'm not able to turn over a way in my head that she presents what she has complained to me about, in a way that she doesn't get ensnared in her own mousetrap.


FF

No, I got it.  There will be at least two people (plus some trainees observing) playing by the rules in the room.  And the MC is not going to let her play (much) by her rules, especially when they fly against biblical truth.

That is going to happen pretty quick and then it will be decision time for her.  MC is not going to go down non-biblical path, nor am I.

And then, well, it will be interesting.

FF

It's easy!

• Change the subject.



• Change the meaning of words.



• Accuse you of doing it but worse.



• Deny your memories. Deny her memories, while she's at it.



• Dysregulate. Scream. Cry. Storm out.



• Suddenly focus on something wrong with your facial expression.



• Dismiss it as unimportant (even if it was the most important thing on Earth a minute earlier).



• Argue with you about the hidden meaning of your choice of verb tense.

I could do this all day... .

My suggestion about MC:

Don't treat it any differently than a normal conversation with her.

I was reading a topic from the Legal board, where the pwBPD is far far worse than your wife and there is no hope for a relationship, only a custody dispute. This isn't your situation, and isn't likely to be one it... .and there was a critical thing said:

The situation (there) has changed from one where she is making decisions to one where external authorities (the courts) are making decisions.

Your Biblical MC has no authority over your wife, not legally, and also being new to her has no trust built up either.

Your wife most likely thinks the MC will tell you to do right and then you will start obeying her as you are supposed to. Not gonna happen.

Don't you go expecting your wife to make any but the tiniest changes from this either. At least not from the first dozen sessions.

In your shoes I wouldn't feel any safer bringing up parental alienation or anuse there than at home.

And when the MC puts a stop to it, ? 

They are trained to let it go for a bit to get a sense of things.  But they are also trained to cut it at a point and,   not let a mockery be made of the counseling. 

No, it's not a rigid thing, but fairly quickly a halt will be called.  Prayer will be had.  If she is worked up and still there she will likely denigrate my faith or faith in general,

If it is obvious that one party is upsetting the cart, that is where the focus will be, they will have he reading verses about self control and having a quiet spirit.


FF

Here is where the nuance lays with my wife.  She is a professing Christian and I believe she truly is saved.  Many of her current behaviors are so outrageous the fly directly in the face of Gods authority.  Well, that will get faced pretty quickly, whether I bring up any topics or not.

When she is faced with discussion how Jesus can die for her, but she is not able to forgive me for (fill in blank), they will directly question her on this and will be persistent in putting it in front of her.

They will let a little bit of blaming go on, but rather quickly they will take about taking the log out of your own eye before complaining about the speck in your neighbors eye.

There is no good to be had about understanding the nature of your neighbor or anyone else's sin, they will point her to her own.

I'm not claiming this will all work, but I am sure there will be some interesting post come out of it.

FF

My experience is that when confronted with the fact that the behavior is sin, the pwBPD feels "accused" and the ones confronting are being judgmental. They seem to have a problem understanding the difference between conviction (or healthy guilt) and shame (I am bad or a bad person). The other way that it can go is that we are all forgiven and repent (understood as saying I'm sorry) or the Scripture doesn't apply to them for whatever reason.

I still have to tread very carefully around the fruit of repentance concept and the Biblical consequences for people who are unrepentant of their sins.

Dude. No. Don't go here. (Yes, the MC is very likely to say things like this, but that doesn't make it safe for you to agree!)

This is like "Logic Man to the rescue!"

If feelings rewrite facts, you don't think they trump faith too?

Didn't she storm out of MC never to see that counselor again just because the MC told her that he had been timing the two of you and were sharing talking time evenly, unlike her believe that you weren't letting her talk?

Please remember--NOTHING GOOD COMES FROM YOU BEING PROVEN RIGHT!

I think the issue of your health continues to be very relevant to this thread. It calls for you to do something different now.

FF, it seems like you are less concerned about "effective" tactics to change your wife's behavior, and more concerned about her dysfunction being exposed.  I can see how that can be satisfying after weeks or years of dysfunction (depending on how you are calculating), but keep in mind what you are not getting by choosing that road as well.

I'm not saying I will be the one bringing this up.  MC will.  It's a core part of the counseling focus.

Much of the fireworks will be watched by me, not caused.

She very well may storm out, but that would lead to her ending the r/s with church, not just MC.  She is not going to be able to participate in the social circle (fellowship) after rejecting biblical truth.  Likely that circle would guide her back to counseling room, but I don't see the church letting her flip the bird to their principles.

I'll have to think on the comment about agreeing.  If I knowingly didn't participate in the process and stuff my beliefs I think that would be saving her from her own mousetrap.

I understand the thought to keep her comfortable and going for a while to build rapport, in a different situation I would probably take that route, but in this one I would feel weird about "gaming the system".

Note:  If asked privately by church leadership to take on a different role, I may consider it, but I doubt that would happen for a long time, if ever.

Part of the focus of training for biblical counseling is to keep both people engaged on their own growth and that could be very different for each spouse.  They are also very strong on a literal interpretation of the Bible, so, he concept of role of women and "final say" will come up.  

FF

Listen, I am hopeful this will work.  I am praying this will work, I really am.  I also realize that God may have other plans for me in life.  He may heal this marriage now, later or never. 

I can and will do my part to the best of my ability.

Again, I see nuance here.  If my wife's dysfunction begins to be exposed, I'm not going to toss a cover over it.  I also realize that I can't go in with a list of 20 dysfunctions on day one.

I really do see a big difference in me exposing and me saving her from exposure.  I can see how other's don't see it that way.

This is the process she wants to participate in and I will not save her from those decisions.  I won't taunt her with them either.

There is a fairly lengthy part of the counseling intake form about health.  It will be asked about on day one as an admin item (vice discussion point).  Lack of sleep and stress (high BP etc etc) from conflict will be at least mentioned then.   She knows this as well, or did know this. 

FF

 

www.counselingoneanother.com/2011/07/09/when-jesus-confronts-borderline-personality-disorder/

watch the video. 

This is what I am praying for, it may, or may not happen.  We will see.

FF

I think you are greatly overestimating how much power an MC has. It sounds like both and your wife are viewing this person as an authority who will take your side against the other. This is a dangerous illusion to have.

I would expect that if an argument is going down the rabbit hole, an MC will try to redirect, cool things down, or reframe the discussion. That might work to stop the immediate circular argument, but there's no reason that the next topic raised will not head in the same direction.

I think you need to work on managing your expectations for this session.

That was an informative video, thanks for sharing.  What the video talks about in the successful scenario, is a person who was a moment of crisis.  Change, or lose your baby child.  The person chose Jesus, and as a result their entire worldview changed, and as a result was cured of their BPD.  So in your situation, is your wife at a moment of crisis?  She is probably worried about losing her marriage, but she is painting you black, so I don't know that would be viewed as a crisis to her.  Losing her kids to you in a marriage dispute would be, but so far she seems to have arranged things where she is more likely to win than lose in such a dispute.

Do you think MC will produce a crisis for her that causes her to consider change?

In biblical counseling, the counselor is seen more as an authority than in typical marriage counseling due to the idea that the Bible holds authority in a believer's life. There tends to more challenge to those receiving counsel to live according to certain standards.

Does this mean there is a type of "tribunal" function to this form of counseling? (With something like findings? And rulings?)

And if Mrs. Formflier has chosen this form of counseling, does that mean she is moving for a ruling of some sort?

I had been thinking that the last thing you might want to do right now, formflier, is be a party to any provocation of crisis for your wife. Because she is under a lot of pressure right now. And because she has already stated that she has been praying about whether you are stable enough and safe enough to be around the children.

Is this process fraught with as many dangers to your marriage as I'm imagining?

I wonder, though, if FF wants a crisis.  It is only through crisis that his wife will seek a change.  Of course, the change that she may choose is divorce, but I think FF's hope is that it will cause a change like the video described.

 

Will try to address some issues/questions.  Let me know if I miss some.

No real "tribunal".

Biblical counseling is about guiding people to see how the Bible applies to everyday life.  To show that it's not an abstract book only relevant to events years ago, but that it is God's word and God's word is sufficient for the life we live today.

The counselor has no real authority.  He or she will be certified by ASBC (used to be NANC)

www.biblicalcounseling.com/

The entire premise is that Christian's submit to God's authority over their lives.  Non-christians can participate although if they don't eventually believe and accept God as authority, it will likely go nowhere.

We will skip over that part because we are both professing Christians.  

Purpose of the counselor is to guide us in study of the Bible and application of that truth in our lives and relationship.

For instance:  There are no biblical grounds for divorce in our r/s.  If that is the case then why does my wife press for divorce so often.  Ahh, she is unhappy with r/s.  Biblical answer is that instead of laying your troubles on your hubby, you take them to God and trust that he will provide for your needs.

So, BPDish behavior would be interpreted as someone that doesn't trust in the Lord and is taking matters into their own hands.  Could also be that their own happiness has become a form of idolatry.  There are other angles to take as well.

Crisis:  I'm not pushing for one, but won't run either.  There does need to be some sort of resolution to this in the near future.  Either we are back on track to a healthier place or we are redefining our r/s to provide me with healthy space to live free from abusive behavior.

More later.  If I missed something let me know.

Oh yeah, many of my posts are me explaining what I think will happen, because I know the system and I know my wife.  Basically, I think I'm aware of the walls she will bang into, after that anybodies guess what happens.

FF

FF, I do get how MC works, and I also know how you've described your wife's behavior very well. I'm going to agree with you 100% on how likely she is to bang into the walls.

What is bugging me is your attitude about the what happens next part.

You still know how your wife behaves. You could guess what she's going to do next.

My best guess is that she will either storm out or "agree" to behaving differently while in MC.

And my best guess is that two days later, your situation at home will be more-or-less what it was the day before. And that this agreement will last as long as any other agreement she made to change her behavior. Because she currently lacks the ability to live up to those kind of agreements.

Anything better would probably qualify literally as a miracle.

... .the path to improving your marriage is a long slow one you are already on. Things like engaging/validating with her, where she is, as she is at times she is receptive... .and disengaging when she isn't.  Enforcing boundaries around abuse, parental alienation, and your sleep hygiene.

These things are are what will save your marriage, not the Biblical MC. Well, these or a miracle, and you can't schedule that for Monday the 29th!

I know you don't want to yield to desperation and choose a blunt instrument of crisis resolution when you yourself are in a state of crisis, ff. You have worked way too long and hard to do that.

It's an excellent thing you still have some time before the counseling begins. And that you are discussing it here!

That's quite a set-up that your wife has created for you and herself.

1. She needs to comply with the recommendations or else she will alienate herself from the spiritual community she wants to be a part of.

2. I imagine, based upon what you've described, that in this branch of Christianity, the final say belongs to the husband.


Here's where I imagine her process going: she will unfairly denigrate your contribution to the family because you don't currently have a title that is in her mind "superior" to hers, as a teacher. I think there's some shame-based thinking going on for her. Previously she could say she was the wife of a commander or an executive, but now she probably has a hard time explaining you to her peers. As you know, the world of the pwBPD is so filled with shame. This may be a more powerful factor that you might imagine.

FF,

Having followed your situation for some time now, including your recent move to the Deciding board, it seems to me that your position on this is pretty consistent with where you are in your own journey, and your desire to save your marriage, but not at any cost.


My understanding of the purpose of this board, versus the Improving board, is to make room for this "in between" place that a person can come to when their own journey intersects with or diverges from the journey of a disordered person. A disordered person also has choices to make, and consequences to bear from those choices, and we as people close to them have choices to make on how many of those consequences we allow to fall on us, or those who cannot adequately protect themselves.

As I read your posts, you sound balanced, fair.  I believe you when you say you would like very much for your marriage to survive and improve.  I also am sympathetic to your desire for a healthier future for yourself and your children.

It makes sense to me that you are holding out hope for a neutral forum like MC, where hopefully your wife will be confronted with the truth of her behaviors, and make healthier choices.  Like many others here, I'm not that optimistic that MC is any match for mental illness, but like the video said, there was one (only one) woman who apparently recovered fully from BPD through surrender to Christ.

Other far more experienced posters seem concerned about the path you're taking, and perhaps that's coming from more of a "staying" perspective, and from people who have been with you through all the twists and turns of your marriage and don't want to see it fail.  That makes complete sense to me, and is understandable, particularly with those 8 children and so much at stake.  I just wanted to weigh in to say that from my perspective, you sound pretty solid in your thinking.

Chump  

Here is the thing, I don't have much choice in the "repair" method.  She chose that.  I have chosen to participate.

I am not going to subvert her choices or rescue her from them.

There is a heavy accountability part to this counseling.  Being accountable to God.  NOT holding someone else accountable.

More on my attitude later.

FF

Yep,  Husband is supposed to provide Christlike leadership to the family and if a disagreement comes up, he gets final say.  As long as I am not asking her to sin, she is supposed to "obey".

Now, I will also tell you that this was a bit of an issue when we got married.  I wanted a partner, not someone to obey me.  The minister she and her family picked out was insistent that she promise to obey me, so I went along with it

I can't remember a time when I ever attempted to use this.  

My view is that if I am providing the right leadership the pathway will become clear and if we can't reach agreement, that is signal to wait, pray and listen for further guidance.  For about 15 years our marriage worked that way.

I would guess that at some point she will try to out me as a heretic that is ok with women preaching and women teaching men.  I have a certain point of view on Paul's letters, others have their own point of view.

Very few people take the Bible literally.  They really just pick different points at which they "interpret" it.  I'm fine with that as long as there is integrity in your method.  If you come up with an answer that you don't like and you switch methods to get the answer you want, well, that just seems wrong to me.

FF

 

Crisis:  I can create one any day that I want if I go over to her parents house and get he kids D5 and D2.

I believe she is trying to push my buttons and get me to do something rash (in her eyes rash) so she can use my "belligerence" as proof of out of control PTSD husband.

In reality, a hubby that had uncontrolled PTSD would likely have reacted badly on first day.  At some point I will bring this up to change it in counseling, and I will be businesslike and to the point.

If she creates her own crises I will not play the role of fire department.

Been thinking about my attitude some and my best description of what I think I have and want to have is that it is time for my wife to make a choice.  Not like a hard deadline on a day, but she needs to make a choice about the life she is going to live.

I have made a choice and I hope hers matches mine.  Yes, I will be more careful about how I present that in counseling.

We came into this marriage as two individuals of our own free will.  I realize I can't force her to stay if she wants to leave and I can't force her to behave in a way she doesn't want to behave.

If we get to a point where everyone is in agreement that there is something that prevents her from behaving as she wishes, I will have a lot of thinking to do.  My guess is that I can work with that and find a way forward.

If she maintains a position of she has nothing to work on and it's all me, I don't see how to craft a workable r/s out of that, certainly not one where I can thrive and get better.  

My health is forcing some choices, but I don't want to be "victimized" by that or feel that I don't have a choice.  I am choosing to live a healthy life, regardless of the choices my wife makes.  

FF

FF, is there a possibility that she will call into question your 'spiritual leadership' of the family and of her? The issues related to that could be the job and providing for the family and 'forcing' her to work and not be a 'keeper of the home'. In my experience, sometimes women who are of this mindset get up in arms about their husbands not being the proper leader (and taking responsibility for them and their lives). She could view it as sin.

Further to the question empath asks:

As you go into the counseling, are you able to define your present and future role in the family with enough clarity to provide a framework of understanding for the counselors?

Are you a once-and-future executive who is going to relinquish to your wife the role of stay-at-home parent in short order? Are you, as a veteran with disabilities, going to seek less demanding employment in order to share wage-earning and child-rearing duties with your wife in a cooperative manner? Or are you henceforth assuming the role of primary parent within the home?

I guess I'm thinking that so many things depend on these types of fundamental understandings on everyone's part. For instance, if you are just rarin' to get back to a full time position, and if it's on the horizon, then isn't it a sensible thing for your wife to deliver younger kids to her parents for after school care beginning now? And for you to allow her other authority over domestic decisions as well?

Is there a way to take some pressure off your wife by providing concrete assurances that she is not expected to be the primary breadwinner for her family? Even if you need additional sources of support from outside the family? Her fear makes sense to me. Especially as she likely suffers from paranoid personality disorder.

FF,

If I remember correctly, you and Mrs. FF have been to MC at this Church before? And if so, what will make it different this time?

Mrs. Cole and I are very religious. We have our kids in our Church's school. We lead boy scout and girl scout troops closely tied to our church. And out priest has been instrumental in helping us work through our marital issues from a biblical standpoint.

But we also go to MC at a plain old, secular psychology practice. And we have made a lot of progress there in the past couple months. Religion is important to us, but God gifted our secular, PhD MC with a different set of skills than he did our Priest. He concentrates much more on the psychological issues and leaves the religious issues to Father L. 

I am not discounting your faith; the world could use more people like you. But sometimes you need a phillips and a flat head to get the job done.

 

We have been in biblical counseling before, but never here and never with guys that have completed the training. 

This church is consider "the" training center for this kind of thing.

I would prefer an approach like cole is talking about, but that is not a choice that is available.

More later

FF

|iiii

The video you shared of Dr. Powlison is very inspiring. I think it applies less to your situation if your wife is PPD rather than BPD. In my experience, people with diagnosed disorders of paranoia do not often present as uncertain or persuadable. They usually specialize in being "certain." :)

You still have choices though. It's inspiring too to see you working through them.

 

My wife seems certain about a lot of things.

Up until the point she "has to" make a choice about that.  It's hard to describe, but she is certain what other people need to be doing, but when it comes to her choices it is less clear.

One of my goals of this counseling experience is to clarify the lines between us.  She decides for her, I decide for me, we decide for joint things.

If she is certain that she should decide for the we things, then there is no reason for us to be married.

One can read the bible in a skewed way to show women as chattle (please note I don't agree with this) or property of a husband.

I'm not aware of any way to read or interpret the Bible that shows men in that role (as property of women). 

If she is or wants to conduct a r/s in that way, that is her choice, it will be interesting to listen to her explain that and show how she used scripture to get there.

Again, for any women that blanked out in the middle of the post, FF does NOT want a woman to be my property or to "obey" me,    

FF

I get this, and want to discuss this from a completely non-theological POV.


From a practical POV, most untreated BPD/non relationships have that kind of dynamic. (With the control going to the pwBPD, regardless of gender and theology)

Would you say that your marriage had fallen into that dynamic? And that until you had a MC mention BPD and found tools and support (like here) you didn't start challenging that status quo?

That's how I read your story here... .and yes, she is fighting you every step of the way, especially when she is stressed and at her low points.

I understand that her current choices are threatening your health and wellbeing at a level you cannot take any longer. That you have to take a stand on this. And she has her own tough choices to make.

My only advice to you is to make your stands and her hard choices as SMALL as you can. About specific behavior today, not an agreement on how the marriage will go forward.

Related, and in MC, I suggest you outright REFUSE any kind of "you will do X and FF wife will do Y going forward" as an agreement with her. Those are worthless as soon as she gets emotionally spooled up, and you know it all too well... I would suggest stating that any personal growth and improvements you make are things you will do for yourself, uncoupled with her doing anything similar, and you hope she will do her best, independent of what you attempt or accomplish.

I have not ever heard better advice.

Wouldn't it be lovely to achieve something "decisive" in these relationships? I believe you will need to let that wish go.

In past times of MC and "working on" the r/s it would get better and get more towards "normal".  Usually she would present her actions as "giving me grace" or her being gracious enough to allow certain things.

The big things she ran from before in biblical counseling was the concept of who is in charge.  It is either her or God.  Can't be both. 

Actually what this looked like is God was in charge until it didn't suit her or they disagreed.

FF

I'm not talking about debates of faith in MC. I'm not talking about words used to justify who got their way, any theological basis, correct, dubious, doesn't matter.

I'm asking about who gets their way and who capitulates when there is a conflict between you and your wife, FF.

Think about your life back before you heard of BPD. Did your wife get her way in more than 80% of the conflicts?

And are you not standing up to her (effectively, not just getting into conflicts over it) in ways you never did back then?

Got it now.

First 15 years of marriage.  I would say it was pretty even.  We would work stuff out,  

Then there were several years of her getting basically everything she wanted, I was being advised to be compassionate to her.  In reality, I fed the monster.

Now, if it involves me, something I control.  I "win" 90% of the time (or more). 

Basically, if she asks I will consider it.  I don't do what I am told.

FF

Yup. You've changed things, and she doesn't like it, and is fighting it. And that dynamic is very real and very important, regardless of what theology justifies what side of it.

If I get it right, you are talking about 90% of the time you make your own choices for YOURSELF.

When the two of you have a conflict about say, what is done with the kids, or other things that really are joint decisions, that seems to still skew strongly in her direction... .but not as much as it used to either.

And I'm guessing you don't even THINK of telling her what to do with her time, even now!

Remember... .her feelings drive facts and theology, and everything else... .and she is feeling this change.

Correct! 

For instance.  She "mentioned" that it would be cool to do ballroom dancing class.  I said yes, but I was clear that I wanted input on a schedule time that worked for us both, but that I loved the idea.  Again, crystal clarity that idea is great but no commitment to anything specific.

While I was gone on my trip apparently she signed us up for a class and had S13 stand in for me on the first class. 

She informed me tonight that out next class was this coming Tuesday.  If you see my other thread about tonight, there is big tension, so I didn't engage on this issue tonight.

But, again, big picture.  I don't do what my wife tells me to do, period.  OK, once or twice I have gone fishing after being told, but, well, that is special case.

She will flip and flop and holler, I will let he know I look forward to finding something that works for us both.

Sigh,

FF

Regardless of the reasons,  becoming less codependent "feels" like abandonment to pwBPD. They believe that it the road to divorce - if a person begins to assert their personhood, even if the PWBPD is the one doing the pushing and indicating they want or are afraid of divorce.  Also, their definition of love is to make them feel secure.  You are changing the dance, so you must be doing something wrong (committing some sin).

Going defcon on Mrs ff during the first session is probably going to result in her doubling down on her position.  Are there things you would like to see addressed that would help to bring you off the ledge, then work on the cooperation issues from a "safer feeling" place?

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