First MC is two Monday's from now, decisions about how I will approach this

[Grey Kitty]

My suggestion about MC:

Your Biblical MC has no authority over your wife, not legally, and also being new to her has no trust built up either.

Here is where the nuance lays with my wife.  She is a professing Christian and I believe she truly is saved.  Many of her current behaviors are so outrageous the fly directly in the face of Gods authority.  Well, that will get faced pretty quickly, whether I bring up any topics or not.

When she is faced with discussion how Jesus can die for her, but she is not able to forgive me for (fill in blank), they will directly question her on this and will be persistent in putting it in front of her.

They will let a little bit of blaming go on, but rather quickly they will take about taking the log out of your own eye before complaining about the speck in your neighbors eye.

There is no good to be had about understanding the nature of your neighbor or anyone else's sin, they will point her to her own.

I'm not claiming this will all work, but I am sure there will be some interesting post come out of it.

FF

Dude. No. Don't go here. (Yes, the MC is very likely to say things like this, but that doesn't make it safe for you to agree!)

This is like "Logic Man to the rescue!"

If feelings rewrite facts, you don't think they trump faith too?

Didn't she storm out of MC never to see that counselor again just because the MC told her that he had been timing the two of you and were sharing talking time evenly, unlike her believe that you weren't letting her talk?

Please remember--NOTHING GOOD COMES FROM YOU BEING PROVEN RIGHT!

[KateCat]

I think the issue of your health continues to be very relevant to this thread. It calls for you to do something different now.

[Fian]

FF, it seems like you are less concerned about "effective" tactics to change your wife's behavior, and more concerned about her dysfunction being exposed.  I can see how that can be satisfying after weeks or years of dysfunction (depending on how you are calculating), but keep in mind what you are not getting by choosing that road as well.

[formflier]

Dude. No. Don't go here. (Yes, the MC is very likely to say things like this, but that doesn't make it safe for you to agree!)

I'm not saying I will be the one bringing this up.  MC will.  It's a core part of the counseling focus.

Much of the fireworks will be watched by me, not caused.

She very well may storm out, but that would lead to her ending the r/s with church, not just MC.  She is not going to be able to participate in the social circle (fellowship) after rejecting biblical truth.  Likely that circle would guide her back to counseling room, but I don't see the church letting her flip the bird to their principles.

I'll have to think on the comment about agreeing.  If I knowingly didn't participate in the process and stuff my beliefs I think that would be saving her from her own mousetrap.

I understand the thought to keep her comfortable and going for a while to build rapport, in a different situation I would probably take that route, but in this one I would feel weird about "gaming the system".

Note:  If asked privately by church leadership to take on a different role, I may consider it, but I doubt that would happen for a long time, if ever.

Part of the focus of training for biblical counseling is to keep both people engaged on their own growth and that could be very different for each spouse.  They are also very strong on a literal interpretation of the Bible, so, he concept of role of women and "final say" will come up.  

FF

[formflier]

FF, it seems like you are less concerned about "effective" tactics to change your wife's behavior, and more concerned about her dysfunction being exposed.  I can see how that can be satisfying after weeks or years of dysfunction (depending on how you are calculating), but keep in mind what you are not getting by choosing that road as well.

Listen, I am hopeful this will work.  I am praying this will work, I really am.  I also realize that God may have other plans for me in life.  He may heal this marriage now, later or never. 

I can and will do my part to the best of my ability.

Again, I see nuance here.  If my wife's dysfunction begins to be exposed, I'm not going to toss a cover over it.  I also realize that I can't go in with a list of 20 dysfunctions on day one.

I really do see a big difference in me exposing and me saving her from exposure.  I can see how other's don't see it that way.

This is the process she wants to participate in and I will not save her from those decisions.  I won't taunt her with them either.

There is a fairly lengthy part of the counseling intake form about health.  It will be asked about on day one as an admin item (vice discussion point).  Lack of sleep and stress (high BP etc etc) from conflict will be at least mentioned then.   She knows this as well, or did know this. 

FF

[formflier]

 

www.counselingoneanother.com/2011/07/09/when-jesus-confronts-borderline-personality-disorder/

watch the video. 

This is what I am praying for, it may, or may not happen.  We will see.

FF

[flourdust]

I could do this all day... .

And when the MC puts a stop to it... ? 

They are trained to let it go for a bit to get a sense of things.  But they are also trained to cut it at a point and,  not let a mockery be made of the counseling. 

I think you are greatly overestimating how much power an MC has. It sounds like both and your wife are viewing this person as an authority who will take your side against the other. This is a dangerous illusion to have.

I would expect that if an argument is going down the rabbit hole, an MC will try to redirect, cool things down, or reframe the discussion. That might work to stop the immediate circular argument, but there's no reason that the next topic raised will not head in the same direction.

I think you need to work on managing your expectations for this session.

[Fian]

www.counselingoneanother.com/2011/07/09/when-jesus-confronts-borderline-personality-disorder/

watch the video. 

This is what I am praying for, it may, or may not happen.  We will see.

FF

That was an informative video, thanks for sharing.  What the video talks about in the successful scenario, is a person who was a moment of crisis.  Change, or lose your baby child.  The person chose Jesus, and as a result their entire worldview changed, and as a result was cured of their BPD.  So in your situation, is your wife at a moment of crisis?  She is probably worried about losing her marriage, but she is painting you black, so I don't know that would be viewed as a crisis to her.  Losing her kids to you in a marriage dispute would be, but so far she seems to have arranged things where she is more likely to win than lose in such a dispute.

Do you think MC will produce a crisis for her that causes her to consider change?

[empath]

I think you are greatly overestimating how much power an MC has. It sounds like both and your wife are viewing this person as an authority who will take your side against the other. This is a dangerous illusion to have.

In biblical counseling, the counselor is seen more as an authority than in typical marriage counseling due to the idea that the Bible holds authority in a believer's life. There tends to more challenge to those receiving counsel to live according to certain standards.

[KateCat]

Does this mean there is a type of "tribunal" function to this form of counseling? (With something like findings? And rulings?)

And if Mrs. Formflier has chosen this form of counseling, does that mean she is moving for a ruling of some sort?

I had been thinking that the last thing you might want to do right now, formflier, is be a party to any provocation of crisis for your wife. Because she is under a lot of pressure right now. And because she has already stated that she has been praying about whether you are stable enough and safe enough to be around the children.

Is this process fraught with as many dangers to your marriage as I'm imagining?

[Fian]

Does this mean there is a type of "tribunal" function to this form of counseling? (With something like findings? And rulings?)

And if Mrs. Formflier has chosen this form of counseling, does that mean she is moving for a ruling of some sort?

I had been thinking that the last thing you might want to do right now, formflier, is be a party to any provocation of crisis for your wife. Because she is under a lot of pressure right now. And because she has already stated that she has been praying about whether you are stable enough and safe enough to be around the children.

Is this process fraught with as many dangers to your marriage as I'm imagining?

I wonder, though, if FF wants a crisis.  It is only through crisis that his wife will seek a change.  Of course, the change that she may choose is divorce, but I think FF's hope is that it will cause a change like the video described.

[formflier]

 

Will try to address some issues/questions.  Let me know if I miss some.

No real "tribunal".

Biblical counseling is about guiding people to see how the Bible applies to everyday life.  To show that it's not an abstract book only relevant to events years ago, but that it is God's word and God's word is sufficient for the life we live today.

The counselor has no real authority.  He or she will be certified by ASBC (used to be NANC)

www.biblicalcounseling.com/

The entire premise is that Christian's submit to God's authority over their lives.  Non-christians can participate although if they don't eventually believe and accept God as authority, it will likely go nowhere.

We will skip over that part because we are both professing Christians.  

Purpose of the counselor is to guide us in study of the Bible and application of that truth in our lives and relationship.

For instance:  There are no biblical grounds for divorce in our r/s.  If that is the case then why does my wife press for divorce so often.  Ahh, she is unhappy with r/s.  Biblical answer is that instead of laying your troubles on your hubby, you take them to God and trust that he will provide for your needs.

So, BPDish behavior would be interpreted as someone that doesn't trust in the Lord and is taking matters into their own hands.  Could also be that their own happiness has become a form of idolatry.  There are other angles to take as well.

Crisis:  I'm not pushing for one, but won't run either.  There does need to be some sort of resolution to this in the near future.  Either we are back on track to a healthier place or we are redefining our r/s to provide me with healthy space to live free from abusive behavior.

More later.  If I missed something let me know.

Oh yeah, many of my posts are me explaining what I think will happen, because I know the system and I know my wife.  Basically, I think I'm aware of the walls she will bang into, after that anybodies guess what happens.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Oh yeah, many of my posts are me explaining what I think will happen, because I know the system and I know my wife.  Basically, I think I'm aware of the walls she will bang into, after that anybodies guess what happens.

FF, I do get how MC works, and I also know how you've described your wife's behavior very well. I'm going to agree with you 100% on how likely she is to bang into the walls.

What is bugging me is your attitude about the what happens next part.

You still know how your wife behaves. You could guess what she's going to do next.

My best guess is that she will either storm out or "agree" to behaving differently while in MC.

And my best guess is that two days later, your situation at home will be more-or-less what it was the day before. And that this agreement will last as long as any other agreement she made to change her behavior. Because she currently lacks the ability to live up to those kind of agreements.

Anything better would probably qualify literally as a miracle.

... .the path to improving your marriage is a long slow one you are already on. Things like engaging/validating with her, where she is, as she is at times she is receptive... .and disengaging when she isn't.  Enforcing boundaries around abuse, parental alienation, and your sleep hygiene.

These things are are what will save your marriage, not the Biblical MC. Well, these or a miracle, and you can't schedule that for Monday the 29th!

[KateCat]

... .the path to improving your marriage is a long slow one you are already on. Things like engaging/validating with her, where she is, as she is at times she is receptive... .and disengaging when she isn't.  Enforcing boundaries around abuse, parental alienation, and your sleep hygiene.

These things are are what will save your marriage, not the Biblical MC. Well, these or a miracle, and you can't schedule that for Monday the 29th!

I know you don't want to yield to desperation and choose a blunt instrument of crisis resolution when you yourself are in a state of crisis, ff. You have worked way too long and hard to do that.

It's an excellent thing you still have some time before the counseling begins. And that you are discussing it here!

[Cat Familiar]

That's quite a set-up that your wife has created for you and herself.

1. She needs to comply with the recommendations or else she will alienate herself from the spiritual community she wants to be a part of.

2. I imagine, based upon what you've described, that in this branch of Christianity, the final say belongs to the husband.


Here's where I imagine her process going: she will unfairly denigrate your contribution to the family because you don't currently have a title that is in her mind "superior" to hers, as a teacher. I think there's some shame-based thinking going on for her. Previously she could say she was the wife of a commander or an executive, but now she probably has a hard time explaining you to her peers. As you know, the world of the pwBPD is so filled with shame. This may be a more powerful factor that you might imagine.

[chump]

FF,

Having followed your situation for some time now, including your recent move to the Deciding board, it seems to me that your position on this is pretty consistent with where you are in your own journey, and your desire to save your marriage, but not at any cost.

Listen, I am hopeful this will work.  I am praying this will work, I really am.  I also realize that God may have other plans for me in life.  He may heal this marriage now, later or never.  

I can and will do my part to the best of my ability.

Again, I see nuance here.  If my wife's dysfunction begins to be exposed, I'm not going to toss a cover over it.  I also realize that I can't go in with a list of 20 dysfunctions on day one.

I really do see a big difference in me exposing and me saving her from exposure.  I can see how other's don't see it that way.

This is the process she wants to participate in and I will not save her from those decisions.  I won't taunt her with them either.

My understanding of the purpose of this board, versus the Improving board, is to make room for this "in between" place that a person can come to when their own journey intersects with or diverges from the journey of a disordered person. A disordered person also has choices to make, and consequences to bear from those choices, and we as people close to them have choices to make on how many of those consequences we allow to fall on us, or those who cannot adequately protect themselves.

As I read your posts, you sound balanced, fair.  I believe you when you say you would like very much for your marriage to survive and improve.  I also am sympathetic to your desire for a healthier future for yourself and your children.

It makes sense to me that you are holding out hope for a neutral forum like MC, where hopefully your wife will be confronted with the truth of her behaviors, and make healthier choices.  Like many others here, I'm not that optimistic that MC is any match for mental illness, but like the video said, there was one (only one) woman who apparently recovered fully from BPD through surrender to Christ.

Other far more experienced posters seem concerned about the path you're taking, and perhaps that's coming from more of a "staying" perspective, and from people who have been with you through all the twists and turns of your marriage and don't want to see it fail.  That makes complete sense to me, and is understandable, particularly with those 8 children and so much at stake.  I just wanted to weigh in to say that from my perspective, you sound pretty solid in your thinking.

Chump  

[formflier]

Here is the thing, I don't have much choice in the "repair" method.  She chose that.  I have chosen to participate.

I am not going to subvert her choices or rescue her from them.

There is a heavy accountability part to this counseling.  Being accountable to God.  NOT holding someone else accountable.

More on my attitude later.

FF

[formflier]

2. I imagine, based upon what you've described, that in this branch of Christianity, the final say belongs to the husband.

Yep,  Husband is supposed to provide Christlike leadership to the family and if a disagreement comes up, he gets final say.  As long as I am not asking her to sin, she is supposed to "obey".

Now, I will also tell you that this was a bit of an issue when we got married.  I wanted a partner, not someone to obey me.  The minister she and her family picked out was insistent that she promise to obey me, so I went along with it

I can't remember a time when I ever attempted to use this.  

My view is that if I am providing the right leadership the pathway will become clear and if we can't reach agreement, that is signal to wait, pray and listen for further guidance.  For about 15 years our marriage worked that way.

I would guess that at some point she will try to out me as a heretic that is ok with women preaching and women teaching men.  I have a certain point of view on Paul's letters, others have their own point of view.

Very few people take the Bible literally.  They really just pick different points at which they "interpret" it.  I'm fine with that as long as there is integrity in your method.  If you come up with an answer that you don't like and you switch methods to get the answer you want, well, that just seems wrong to me.

FF

[formflier]

 

Crisis:  I can create one any day that I want if I go over to her parents house and get he kids D5 and D2.

I believe she is trying to push my buttons and get me to do something rash (in her eyes rash) so she can use my "belligerence" as proof of out of control PTSD husband.

In reality, a hubby that had uncontrolled PTSD would likely have reacted badly on first day.  At some point I will bring this up to change it in counseling, and I will be businesslike and to the point.

If she creates her own crises I will not play the role of fire department.

Been thinking about my attitude some and my best description of what I think I have and want to have is that it is time for my wife to make a choice.  Not like a hard deadline on a day, but she needs to make a choice about the life she is going to live.

I have made a choice and I hope hers matches mine.  Yes, I will be more careful about how I present that in counseling.

We came into this marriage as two individuals of our own free will.  I realize I can't force her to stay if she wants to leave and I can't force her to behave in a way she doesn't want to behave.

If we get to a point where everyone is in agreement that there is something that prevents her from behaving as she wishes, I will have a lot of thinking to do.  My guess is that I can work with that and find a way forward.

If she maintains a position of she has nothing to work on and it's all me, I don't see how to craft a workable r/s out of that, certainly not one where I can thrive and get better.  

My health is forcing some choices, but I don't want to be "victimized" by that or feel that I don't have a choice.  I am choosing to live a healthy life, regardless of the choices my wife makes.  

FF

[empath]

FF, is there a possibility that she will call into question your 'spiritual leadership' of the family and of her? The issues related to that could be the job and providing for the family and 'forcing' her to work and not be a 'keeper of the home'. In my experience, sometimes women who are of this mindset get up in arms about their husbands not being the proper leader (and taking responsibility for them and their lives). She could view it as sin.

[KateCat]

Further to the question empath asks:

As you go into the counseling, are you able to define your present and future role in the family with enough clarity to provide a framework of understanding for the counselors?

Are you a once-and-future executive who is going to relinquish to your wife the role of stay-at-home parent in short order? Are you, as a veteran with disabilities, going to seek less demanding employment in order to share wage-earning and child-rearing duties with your wife in a cooperative manner? Or are you henceforth assuming the role of primary parent within the home?

I guess I'm thinking that so many things depend on these types of fundamental understandings on everyone's part. For instance, if you are just rarin' to get back to a full time position, and if it's on the horizon, then isn't it a sensible thing for your wife to deliver younger kids to her parents for after school care beginning now? And for you to allow her other authority over domestic decisions as well?

Is there a way to take some pressure off your wife by providing concrete assurances that she is not expected to be the primary breadwinner for her family? Even if you need additional sources of support from outside the family? Her fear makes sense to me. Especially as she likely suffers from paranoid personality disorder.

[Cole]

FF,

If I remember correctly, you and Mrs. FF have been to MC at this Church before? And if so, what will make it different this time?

Mrs. Cole and I are very religious. We have our kids in our Church's school. We lead boy scout and girl scout troops closely tied to our church. And out priest has been instrumental in helping us work through our marital issues from a biblical standpoint.

But we also go to MC at a plain old, secular psychology practice. And we have made a lot of progress there in the past couple months. Religion is important to us, but God gifted our secular, PhD MC with a different set of skills than he did our Priest. He concentrates much more on the psychological issues and leaves the religious issues to Father L. 

I am not discounting your faith; the world could use more people like you. But sometimes you need a phillips and a flat head to get the job done.

[formflier]

 

We have been in biblical counseling before, but never here and never with guys that have completed the training. 

This church is consider "the" training center for this kind of thing.

I would prefer an approach like cole is talking about, but that is not a choice that is available.

More later

FF

[KateCat]

I am not discounting your faith; the world could use more people like you.

The video you shared of Dr. Powlison is very inspiring. I think it applies less to your situation if your wife is PPD rather than BPD. In my experience, people with diagnosed disorders of paranoia do not often present as uncertain or persuadable. They usually specialize in being "certain."

You still have choices though. It's inspiring too to see you working through them.

[formflier]

 

My wife seems certain about a lot of things.

Up until the point she "has to" make a choice about that.  It's hard to describe, but she is certain what other people need to be doing, but when it comes to her choices it is less clear.

One of my goals of this counseling experience is to clarify the lines between us.  She decides for her, I decide for me, we decide for joint things.

If she is certain that she should decide for the we things, then there is no reason for us to be married.

One can read the bible in a skewed way to show women as chattle (please note I don't agree with this) or property of a husband.

I'm not aware of any way to read or interpret the Bible that shows men in that role (as property of women). 

If she is or wants to conduct a r/s in that way, that is her choice, it will be interesting to listen to her explain that and show how she used scripture to get there.

Again, for any women that blanked out in the middle of the post, FF does NOT want a woman to be my property or to "obey" me,    

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I get this, and want to discuss this from a completely non-theological POV.

One can read the bible in a skewed way to show women as chattle (please note I don't agree with this) or property of a husband.

I'm not aware of any way to read or interpret the Bible that shows men in that role (as property of women). 

If she is or wants to conduct a r/s in that way, that is her choice, it will be interesting to listen to her explain that and show how she used scripture to get there.

From a practical POV, most untreated BPD/non relationships have that kind of dynamic. (With the control going to the pwBPD, regardless of gender and theology)

Would you say that your marriage had fallen into that dynamic? And that until you had a MC mention BPD and found tools and support (like here) you didn't start challenging that status quo?

That's how I read your story here... .and yes, she is fighting you every step of the way, especially when she is stressed and at her low points.

I understand that her current choices are threatening your health and wellbeing at a level you cannot take any longer. That you have to take a stand on this. And she has her own tough choices to make.

My only advice to you is to make your stands and her hard choices as SMALL as you can. About specific behavior today, not an agreement on how the marriage will go forward.

Related, and in MC, I suggest you outright REFUSE any kind of "you will do X and FF wife will do Y going forward" as an agreement with her. Those are worthless as soon as she gets emotionally spooled up, and you know it all too well... I would suggest stating that any personal growth and improvements you make are things you will do for yourself, uncoupled with her doing anything similar, and you hope she will do her best, independent of what you attempt or accomplish.

[KateCat]

My only advice to you is to make your stands and her hard choices as SMALL as you can. About specific behavior today, not an agreement on how the marriage will go forward.

I have not ever heard better advice.

Wouldn't it be lovely to achieve something "decisive" in these relationships? I believe you will need to let that wish go.

[formflier]

From a practical POV, most untreated BPD/non relationships have that kind of dynamic. (With the control going to the pwBPD, regardless of gender and theology)

Would you say that your marriage had fallen into that dynamic? And that until you had a MC mention BPD and found tools and support (like here) you didn't start challenging that status quo?

In past times of MC and "working on" the r/s it would get better and get more towards "normal".  Usually she would present her actions as "giving me grace" or her being gracious enough to allow certain things.

The big things she ran from before in biblical counseling was the concept of who is in charge.  It is either her or God.  Can't be both. 

Actually what this looked like is God was in charge until it didn't suit her or they disagreed.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

From a practical POV, most untreated BPD/non relationships have that kind of dynamic. (With the control going to the pwBPD, regardless of gender and theology)

Would you say that your marriage had fallen into that dynamic? And that until you had a MC mention BPD and found tools and support (like here) you didn't start challenging that status quo?

In past times of MC and "working on" the r/s it would get better and get more towards "normal".  Usually she would present her actions as "giving me grace" or her being gracious enough to allow certain things.

The big things she ran from before in biblical counseling was the concept of who is in charge.  It is either her or God.  Can't be both. 

Actually what this looked like is God was in charge until it didn't suit her or they disagreed.

FF

I'm not talking about debates of faith in MC. I'm not talking about words used to justify who got their way, any theological basis, correct, dubious, doesn't matter.

I'm asking about who gets their way and who capitulates when there is a conflict between you and your wife, FF.

Think about your life back before you heard of BPD. Did your wife get her way in more than 80% of the conflicts?

And are you not standing up to her (effectively, not just getting into conflicts over it) in ways you never did back then?

[formflier]

I'm asking about who gets their way and who capitulates when there is a conflict between you and your wife, FF.

Think about your life back before you heard of BPD. Did your wife get her way in more than 80% of the conflicts?

And are you not standing up to her (effectively, not just getting into conflicts over it) in ways you never did back then?

Got it now.

First 15 years of marriage.  I would say it was pretty even.  We would work stuff out,  

Then there were several years of her getting basically everything she wanted, I was being advised to be compassionate to her.  In reality, I fed the monster.

Now, if it involves me, something I control.  I "win" 90% of the time (or more). 

Basically, if she asks I will consider it.  I don't do what I am told.

FF