First MC is two Monday's from now, decisions about how I will approach this

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Well, we are scheduled to start biblical counseling in two Mondays (Feb29th). 

I have been trying to listen when she wants to talk, she invites me to then talk but then takes active steps not to listen to the answers to her questions.  Such as walking out of the room after asking me why I have a broken heart.

There have been a couple of conversations that were respectful where she rhetorically asked the question, "Is there too much hurt in our r/s for us to heal?"

Yesterday I was put through the ringer at the VA.  Periodic exams about disabilities and status of things. 

Tons of "markers" in my exams that say there is too much stress/toxicity in my life.  I wasn't shocked that my blood pressure was elevated.  I was shocked at the amount of elevation.  Will have to follow up on this over next few days and weeks to try and determine how much of it was due to exam anxiety (which I have NEVER had before, NEVER)

My last dr visit before the move I was still a solid 120/80 guy and that has been stable for as long as I can remember.  I got a peek at the first reading they took and it appeared that both numbers were triple digits.  Pretty sure it was 170/115. 

They didn't let me see readings after that but there was lots of head shaking and wondering about exam anxiety. 

Obviously I will be monitoring this daily for a while to see if medication is needed, I have been deliberate about self care activites, relaxing baths, stretching and light exercise.  I do need to kick up exercise some.

But THE elephant in the room is the dramatic turn of events in my marriage.

I'm certainly going to show up at MC with open mind, ready to participate and all that.  I'm going to craft a message/statement that I am choosing a marriage and life that is free from rage/abuse and where kindness and compromise are hallmarks of the r/s.  That she is free to choose a different life.

I realize odds of this "working" are likely on the low side.  Our r/s has shown the ability to improve, so I realize this is no hopeless.  I also realize that continuing on the same path since rage/abuse showed back up in force after the move is NOT an option.

I have another T appointment tomorrow for me.  I'm sure this will be focus.

FF

[formflier]

Well, we are scheduled to start biblical counseling in two Mondays (Feb29th). 

I have been trying to listen when she wants to talk, she invites me to then talk but then takes active steps not to listen to the answers to her questions.  Such as walking out of the room after asking me why I have a broken heart.

There have been a couple of conversations that were respectful where she rhetorically asked the question, "Is there too much hurt in our r/s for us to heal?"

Yesterday I was put through the ringer at the VA.  Periodic exams about disabilities and status of things. 

Tons of "markers" in my exams that say there is too much stress/toxicity in my life.  I wasn't shocked that my blood pressure was elevated.  I was shocked at the amount of elevation.  Will have to follow up on this over next few days and weeks to try and determine how much of it was due to exam anxiety (which I have NEVER had before, NEVER)

My last dr visit before the move I was still a solid 120/80 guy and that has been stable for as long as I can remember.  I got a peek at the first reading they took and it appeared that both numbers were triple digits.  Pretty sure it was 170/115. 

They didn't let me see readings after that but there was lots of head shaking and wondering about exam anxiety. 

Obviously I will be monitoring this daily for a while to see if medication is needed, I have been deliberate about self care activites, relaxing baths, stretching and light exercise.  I do need to kick up exercise some.

But THE elephant in the room is the dramatic turn of events in my marriage.

I'm certainly going to show up at MC with open mind, ready to participate and all that.  I'm going to craft a message/statement that I am choosing a marriage and life that is free from rage/abuse and where kindness and compromise are hallmarks of the r/s.  That she is free to choose a different life.

I realize odds of this "working" are likely on the low side.  Our r/s has shown the ability to improve, so I realize this is no hopeless.  I also realize that continuing on the same path since rage/abuse showed back up in force after the move is NOT an option.

I have another T appointment tomorrow for me.  I'm sure this will be focus.

FF

[formflier]

Just got back from a pharmacy.  Went to use their self screening machine for BP.  Both numbers were well into hypertension 2 range (the highest range) for that machine.  Ugggg,

I have an appointment at clinic  (not VA) here in about 20 minutes to let them take BP in both arms and then I will discuss with family practice physician.

Was concerned after yesterday, after visit to pharmacy, concern is ramping up to something close to freaking out.

Which I am sure is going to help my BP readings at the clinic.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Buy Omron brand bicep cuff for home.  It sounds like you are going to need to take daily readings and record for best care.

[KateCat]

Omron brand is great.  If you were a 120/80 guy just recently, then this sounds as though it could be your wake up call.

[formflier]

 

So, doc checked me over an no "immediate concerns" (like fall over today stuff) but I have a log and will have to do the daily readings to see what is really going on.

Their numbers were slightly lower and consistent on both arms.  They looked through their history and yep, have always been a solid citizen with "perfect" blood pressure.

So, immediate anxiety level has decreased although my long term "determination" to effect a change (one way or another) in my life.  I still describe it as "I'm not going back" although I acknowledge that I am temporarily "back" in the heat of dysfunction.

Sigh,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

FF, I'm sorry that your BP has spiked.    My husband just had this experience a month ago and is now on medication which has brought his readings down to the 100/70 range. He hasn't experienced any side effects from the meds and he has started using my exercise bike and regularly going to yoga twice a week.

I think his BP spike was caused by years of alcohol abuse plus his sedentary lifestyle. He was very athletic in his youth, but with the magical thinking that pwBPD have, I think he believed that physical fitness would carry throughout his life and that he could do (or not do) whatever he pleased and it would all be OK. He's still very sedentary, but he's making some attempts at improvement.

I agree with Sunfl0wer. You should have a BP cuff and Omron is the brand to buy. He bought one last summer at his doctor's suggestion and occasionally took his blood pressure. At the beginning of the year when he wasn't feeling good, he started monitoring his BP and he then bought a wrist cuff when he didn't believe what his bicep cuff was reading--typical BPD denial. (I calibrated his bicep cuff reading against the BP reading I got from the cuff and stethoscope from my EMT training and it was close. Yet he still didn't believe it until his doctor's office confirmed the hypertension diagnosis.) Anyway the wrist cuff doesn't seem as accurate as the bicep cuff.

Nothing like the cold hard reality of numbers for a wakeup call. In your case, you knew your relationship was stressing you out. Now what other self-care strategies can you incorporate to overcome some of the stressors you are facing on a daily basis?

[KateCat]

Excellent news, formflier.

I'm gonna bet that now your blood pressure will go down quite a bit, just from this reassurance.

Your post this morning prompted me to use my own Omron cuff just now: 119/71. Nice. However, the last time I went for a colonoscopy, I could feel my anxiety rising and I just knew my BP readings were going to go from bad to worse by the time they wheeled me into the procedure room. And the fact that I was thinking NFW am I going home today without getting this done was making it worse.

160/100. And the doctor was thinking of not proceeding. But then said, "I think you're just scared," and gave me not one, but two doses of fentanyl. What the pressure went down to after that I have no idea, because I went right into a pleasant dream and woke up to a good post-procedure report and a pleasant residual fentanyl glow.

That mind-body connection is really something.

[Cat Familiar]

My BP story is similar to KateCat's. I couldn't find one of my cats and when I heard snoring, I stuck my hand into the outdoor kitty bed I had built on a shelf in the goat hut, which was curtained off by an old down jacket. I don't know who was more surprised, the sleeping raccoon or me.

Anyway raccoons in this area can harbor rabies. Rabies bites are 100% fatal.

When I went to the "doc in a box" and my BP was taken, it was my usual 90/60. Then when they told me they were sending me to the hospital for rabies vaccine which was going to cost me $2000, my BP reading at the hospital was 140/90.

So yes, emotions can elevate blood pressure quite effectively.

[GaGrl]

I have what my GI specialist calls "white coat" blood pressure spikes.  He says he has the same reaction, even as a physician!  So what he taught me to do is to ask any medical personnel taking my blood pressure to wait until I can sit and take 5-6 deep breaths.  Works almost every time so that my usual 120/75 reading is taken, rather than a spike of 147/90.

My husband has the home BP kit... .really helps him monitor.

[KateCat]

Gagrl, how gratifying to hear of a physician that has "white coat" blood pressure spikes.

I cannot master mine at all in a hospital setting, even with deep breathing. In fact, just thinking about who might be snoring right now in my cat's bed is causing some shift in the force . . .

[formflier]

 

It's interesting the similar stories/life experiences we have.

Growing up I was respectful, but not afraid of dogs.  Even big mean looking ones.  So, I'm a young 22 year old guy going for a bike ride outside a Navy base when some dogs come out to join me.  I was fine with it, talked to them, thought we were having a great time.  Well, the dog was mesmerized with my foot going round and round and deciding to take a taste of FF.  I was a tasty morsel back in those days. 

Blood everywhere, some chunks missing from my leg.  The gate guard at the base was wide eyed as I rode back in dripping blood.  Got fixed up and the flight surgeon told me we had to go get that dog because of rabies.  Or else I would have to start getting shots. 

Luckily, we got the dog and, yep, you guessed it.  He was NOT vaccinated.  So, we chose the course of action to watch him in quarantine for any symptoms and if he showed one bit of a symptom, I would immediately begin treatment.  Luckily, he was fine and I relaxed after the quarantine was over. 

Thinking about rabies is no fun.

I've heard of tons of people with white coat spike, I've just never been one.

My father began taking BP meds when he was in late 60s and his BP is well managed with the meds.

I would rather put off meds for another 20 years or so.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Yep, another similar story, FF. In my early twenties, I lived in an area with huge citrus groves. I was riding my ten speed on a dirt road when out of nowhere, a dog rushed at me and bit my leg. I had no idea I could ride a bike with my feet on the handlebars, but that's what I found myself doing.

And same story, this dog had suddenly appeared in the area and no one knew if he had been vaccinated. He was quarantined and ultimately all was well, but it was unnerving.

I don't blame you for not wanting to be on meds. I know some people have had success with biofeedback and meditation to control BP.

Now I am equipped for doing wild animal rescue if I so choose. I have lifetime immunity from rabies with only a booster shot needed in case I get bit again.

[formflier]

 

If you need anyone for anthrax cleanup, I think I just need a booster and I'm good to go with that.

Remember the days when Saddam was going to Anthrax everyone.  I got pumped full of all kinds of vaccines back then,

FF

[Fian]

Back to the original question, how should you approach MC.  Here are some ideas to consider (or reject):

• Parental Alientation



• She wants to make unilateral decisions



• You do not have PTSD



• Communication on a daily basis without having to wait for a T



• Chasing you in the house and opening doors



• The elephant in the room: both sides preparing for divorce



• Her tactics to try and inhibit your ability to sleep

You also have to consider if playing tapes would be an effective way to get the T up to speed on her lying.  Or if it would just cause her to stop going to T entirely.

[/list]

[Notwendy]

Is this the person she chose? The two of you will be together. IMHO, if you go in with a list of issues, it is likely that she will too. The two of you will be both making your case with a barrage of complaints to someone who is meeting you for the first time.

He's a biblical counselor but he's not King Solomon. I think I would take a listening stance and let your wife air her concerns. This may not be easy for you as you may think she is painting you black and influencing the counselor. However, underneath her allegations are real feelings that need to be addressed. She needs to be heard. You do too, but I don't know if it is a good idea to get all into it all at once.

At some point, the counselor will want to hear from you. Then, you can say you have concerns and then bring out one that is important to you. I think over time, he will get the picture. He will also probably get it if you both go at it, but I think there is benefit to staying calm at first.

[formflier]

 

Yes, this is the "organization" that she picked.  We don't get to choose the counselor.

We have been through most of the training ourselves at this organization.  Been 4-5 years since last attendance at training.  Also the place where she and rest of the family want to worship.  I am still shopping, and to her credit she is going to other churches with me. 

Generally on Sunday's we go visit a church and then attend another service (contemporary) at this location.  No shock to you guys I'm not a fan of contemporary and prefer "traditional" with hymns and such.

Anyway, my thoughts on the opening will be to restate that this was only place she would go and I readily agreed and ask for her agreement that we stay in counseling there until BOTH of us determine (and the counselor) that we are ready to "graduate".  If she balks I will ask for help understanding that level of commitment. 

Anyway, my guess is at some point I will get a commitment.

She can pick her issue 1.  I will pick parental alienation (putting Daddy on trial in front of kids).  There is no Biblical support for this, she is publicly (with recorded proof) violating the 9th commandment against bearing false witness.  The process is to not only ask the person forgiveness that you have sinned against, but also to participate in restoring the person's reputation. 

It will get interesting really fast, I'm not going to persecute her, but I will not save or "go easy" on her either.

Here is what I am trying to wrap my head around.  She knows all of this.  I have wondered if she realizes this and is wanting to get herself "put in a box" where she has to face it, one way or another.

I am under no illusions that conflict gets better quickly.  My hope is that we can move it to a more private location.

"Accountability" is a big deal in Biblical counseling.  I am 100% fine with recordings and being held accountable for what actually left my lips.  It would be interesting to hear her explain why she would not want to be held accountable for what she has actually said. 

I'm also under no illusions that this is guaranteed to work.  If it falls apart, I don't see how she can maintain her church relationships there.  In other words if she walks out to not come back I see her turning her back on church there for her and kids, which is HUGE deal to her.

Thoughts?

FF

[flourdust]

Well... .you know your wife better than any of us. What's your confidence in any of these scenarios?

My experience with MC with a disordered person is that it's not any kind of an orderly give and take. It wasn't about which issue to bring up, or if we could agree to make a change based on any issue. Instead, if I presented an issue, she would throw up a storm of obfuscation.

Let's say the topic was my concern about her raging in front of the kid. I said this was harmful, and I wanted an agreement that it would stop. She would say that it never happened, or it happened so long ago that I was petty to bring it up. She would say that she had to do it because I had done something else first. She would try to change the story so that it sounded trivial. (Me: "She threatens to commit suicide in front of our daughter." Her: "So I said I was annoyed with you ... .big deal." She would counter-attack with an unrelated issue/accusation and turn the topic to that. She would latch on to a particular word I used or facial expression and make that the issue. (Me: "She threatens to commit suicide in front of our daughter." Her: "Threatens? You find me threatening? Are you saying you're scared of me, because that's not at all how you act. He's making this up!"

I actually came up with my username based on someone's description of talking with a dysregulated pwBPD:

You're not supposed to get it if you have a rational mind. Think of it like if someone with BPD spews language at you as if a bag of flour just exploded. You wouldn't be able to see for awhile till all the flour dust settles. Soon as most of it does they either stir up the dust or explode another bag onto you. You can't see anything, you're blind.

[Sunfl0wer]

I wonder if more important than issues discussed or brought up is attitude of individuals?

If I were in the T shoes... .

I would maybe be looking at the bigger picture in how the couple interact vs the specific issues.  (Unless specific issue is urgent, or abuse)

I may ask myself... .

Are they spewing off complaints about the other?

Are they speaking words and tone that convey love, respect, willingness to work together about their issues?

Are they truly listening or just waiting for a turn to speak?

Are they already checked out and looking for an exit?

Is one of them able to own up to stuff and lead or are they stuck in blaming?

What are the major issues/stresses outside of the relationship that affect it?

Idk... .just rambling off random thoughts... .

Point being... .

Maybe HOW you communicate is more telling than WHAT you communicate?

[formflier]

 

Yep, totally agree.  It will be interesting to see the contrast or if she tries to stuff it and keep it together.

I'm 99% positive I can stay focused, relaxed and non-reactive.  If she starts spewing stuff "at" me, I will engage the T on if I enforce boundaries or if they do.  But will quickly enforce my own boundary and come back in 5 minutes to re-engage.

My top two things are (IMO) abuse/abusive.

parental alienation (and the damage done to kids listening to it) and controlling my sleep, and other abusive behaviors towards me.

My kids are bigger priority.

What counselor and reasonable person can disagree with "keep the argument private and don't call in kids to be part of an argument"  If she claims it isn't happening then shouldn't be a problem agreeing to not do something she is not doing.


FF

[flourdust]

A reasonable person would agree. Is that who you are married to?

[formflier]

A reasonable person would agree. Is that who you are married to?

Nope, but, then she is in her own mousetrap and that will be interesting to watch.

So, you are not "submitting" to the biblical counselor and the Word of God (Bible)? 

This is the place and the only place that you wanted to come to, correct?

That is where it will get interesting and I'm sure I will have some fun posts after that.  And really, that is the point where I don't know how it will go.  I think it will progress rapidly to this point on an issue or two and then, who knows.

Again, I realize that this is not the recommended way (if there is one) to "deal with" pwBPD in MC or in general, but, my attitude is that this is the mousetrap she has built and I won't save her from it.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

If I were in your shoes... .

I'd be curious to see my wife's direction and intent of wanting MC. 

I'd worry that if I equally engage and participate along with W then she may use my words as ammo and just respond reactive and trash me to try to triangulate MC on her side.  So in attempt to prevent this and to really HEAR her true motives with MC (and so she cannot later blame me for sabotaging or distracting it) I may stay more of a quiet background presence for most of it allowing her the floor to go in different directions.  Because for me... .  I would really want this opportunity to see if W actually is seeking repair or revenge.

If I had some serious stuff that needed discussing or to be added to MC view of the dynamic (abuse, PA) I may try to find most 'quiet' way to initially bring this up... .so as not to loose my opportunity to see if she does want repair and to not distract her from that goal of hers.  I am keeping in mind... .her complaining can be evidence of wanting to repair... .if after her complaint she is actually receptive to MC in any way.  Yet... .I may need to do a lot of sitting back and listening before such is revealed.

What I mean by 'quiet' is not to minimize it or treat it not important... .but I would first want to ensure if W is able to 'connect' with this MC then that could be a valuable resource in whatever direction things may go.  The effectiveness of MC participation with issues of abuse and PA are only as effective as W continuing to attend.  (Otherwise you can be using your personal T to deal with such matters.). So... .eh... .long winded... .sorry... .  So I may want to mention it after it is asked rather than look for opportunity to push it out there.  Mention it BIFF ... .well, minus the friendly.  And allow MC to process vs emphasizing your focus on it.  If W is willing to return there to MC, there will be plenty of time to continue to bring this up.  It is not a topic expected to be resolved in one session anyway, but more an ongoing thing to address... .so no need to blast her out of the session day 1 with it... .then not have benefits of this potential support.

Summary:  I'd be cautious about W feeling alienated during the session and may behave more quiet than I like so she can feel important, valued and heard... .enough to return.

Ps... Good on you for preparing boundary enforcement in MC!  I wish I thought if that yrs ago!

[flourdust]

A reasonable person would agree. Is that who you are married to?

Nope... but... .then she is in her own mousetrap and that will be interesting to watch.

I think you totally missed the point of my experience. Your logic trap is useless against someone who doesn't play by those rules.

[formflier]

 

Yep, I get where you are coming from.  I will take my cues from the MC about who goes first and all of that.  Not going to be dramatic or overstate.

In fact it would probably be more like "I would like to find a solution to keep our children out of the marital decision making and conflict"  or perhaps just use marital decision making.

Here is the thing.  I have no interest in blasting her out of the water on day 1.  But if she blasts herself, I'm not jumping in front of the bullet.

I'm really curious to see how she presents, because I'm not able to turn over a way in my head that she presents what she has complained to me about, in a way that she doesn't get ensnared in her own mousetrap.


FF

[formflier]

I think you totally missed the point of my experience. Your logic trap is useless against someone who doesn't play by those rules.

No, I got it.  There will be at least two people (plus some trainees observing) playing by the rules in the room.  And the MC is not going to let her play (much) by her rules, especially when they fly against biblical truth.

That is going to happen pretty quick and then it will be decision time for her.  MC is not going to go down non-biblical path, nor am I.

And then, well, it will be interesting.

FF

[flourdust]

I'm really curious to see how she presents, because I'm not able to turn over a way in my head that she presents what she has complained to me about, in a way that she doesn't get ensnared in her own mousetrap.

It's easy!

• Change the subject.



• Change the meaning of words.



• Accuse you of doing it but worse.



• Deny your memories. Deny her memories, while she's at it.



• Dysregulate. Scream. Cry. Storm out.



• Suddenly focus on something wrong with your facial expression.



• Dismiss it as unimportant (even if it was the most important thing on Earth a minute earlier).



• Argue with you about the hidden meaning of your choice of verb tense.

I could do this all day... .

[Grey Kitty]

My suggestion about MC:

Don't treat it any differently than a normal conversation with her.

I was reading a topic from the Legal board, where the pwBPD is far far worse than your wife and there is no hope for a relationship, only a custody dispute. This isn't your situation, and isn't likely to be one it... .and there was a critical thing said:

The situation (there) has changed from one where she is making decisions to one where external authorities (the courts) are making decisions.

Your Biblical MC has no authority over your wife, not legally, and also being new to her has no trust built up either.

Your wife most likely thinks the MC will tell you to do right and then you will start obeying her as you are supposed to. Not gonna happen.

Don't you go expecting your wife to make any but the tiniest changes from this either. At least not from the first dozen sessions.

In your shoes I wouldn't feel any safer bringing up parental alienation or anuse there than at home.

[formflier]

I could do this all day,

And when the MC puts a stop to it, ? 

They are trained to let it go for a bit to get a sense of things.  But they are also trained to cut it at a point and,   not let a mockery be made of the counseling. 

No, it's not a rigid thing, but fairly quickly a halt will be called.  Prayer will be had.  If she is worked up and still there she will likely denigrate my faith or faith in general,

If it is obvious that one party is upsetting the cart, that is where the focus will be, they will have he reading verses about self control and having a quiet spirit.


FF

[formflier]

My suggestion about MC:

Your Biblical MC has no authority over your wife, not legally, and also being new to her has no trust built up either.

Here is where the nuance lays with my wife.  She is a professing Christian and I believe she truly is saved.  Many of her current behaviors are so outrageous the fly directly in the face of Gods authority.  Well, that will get faced pretty quickly, whether I bring up any topics or not.

When she is faced with discussion how Jesus can die for her, but she is not able to forgive me for (fill in blank), they will directly question her on this and will be persistent in putting it in front of her.

They will let a little bit of blaming go on, but rather quickly they will take about taking the log out of your own eye before complaining about the speck in your neighbors eye.

There is no good to be had about understanding the nature of your neighbor or anyone else's sin, they will point her to her own.

I'm not claiming this will all work, but I am sure there will be some interesting post come out of it.

FF

[empath]

My experience is that when confronted with the fact that the behavior is sin, the pwBPD feels "accused" and the ones confronting are being judgmental. They seem to have a problem understanding the difference between conviction (or healthy guilt) and shame (I am bad or a bad person). The other way that it can go is that we are all forgiven and repent (understood as saying I'm sorry) or the Scripture doesn't apply to them for whatever reason.

I still have to tread very carefully around the fruit of repentance concept and the Biblical consequences for people who are unrepentant of their sins.