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In an attempt to get help for all the problem areas in my relationship I want to call your attention to another common issue: repetition.

My SO gave me one of his old laptops because mine died and I couldn't afford to replace it. Unfortunately his laptop had way too many files on it so it stopped being functional as well. Last night he did a remote erase over FaceTime in case there were any problems. There were problems which we're going to have to deal with today, I'm going to have to reinstall the system software.

I called him this morning to set up time to reinstall the system software and as predicted he told me he really enjoyed seeing me last night. Well, this would've been fine except for the fact that it followed up on me telling him that working on the computer last night threw me off my schedules and I got a bad night's sleep. He outright contradicted me and said he thought it was a good idea and then went on to tell me he enjoyed seeing me last night. I lied and said I enjoyed seeing him too even though I had just told him working on the computer last night so close to bedtime was not a good idea. Then to make matters worse he repeated himself which left me no choice but to say "I know you already said that."

Now usually this would create an argument but I ended the phone call shortly after that however now I feel irritated that I realized what he did. I'm going to let it go because correcting him isn't going to accomplish anything but I want to be more sensitive to the next time he invalidates me. I also know pointing that out to him isn't going to do any good but I can end the conversation the next time he subtly and charmingly invalidates me.

Do you have any observations on this anecdote or suggestions to help me?

PLease let me know if what I said made sense.

Does this sum it up: You find your married bf/fiance' to be annoying because he said it was nice to see you while he was helping you fix the free computer he gave you.

Unicorn, I pop into your threads every few weeks and I can see a steady erosion in the way you treat your married bf/fiance' - you treat him with a great deal of contempt.

• He is not been forthcoming or honest regarding his marriage or getting a divorce



• You have huge and growing resentments which you deal with by treating him in an uncaring way (he tries t pacify you with secondary thing and that give you some satisfaction and relief to reject them)



• He has growing resentments and these will likely come your way in full force when you are at a vulnerable point.

The two of you deep into a relationship death cycle.  Experts like John Gottman would say that you are in "Stage Four", the final stages of relationship destruction/death.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

I was encouraging you (and him), when you moved to Stage Two to be very careful, this your relationship was headed for ruin.

My personal advice is to not get caught up in this day to day Stage Four drama anymore. You are simply  walking the plank  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walking_the_plank) - the relationship is a timebomb - it might go off on you and devastate you when it does.

You've gotten a lot of advice on how to move back to Stage Three and even Stage Two and you have rejected it all. This is not a criticism, just an observation that you're expression of your resentment is far more clear than any efforts to salvage the relationship.  Maybe its a helplessness response because you know he will not do his part to salvage the relationship.  Maybe its your emotions driving you.  Either way, the reality is that this relationship is "walking dead" (walking the plank) and a potential time bomb that could hurt you.

Is there any point in continuing?  Is there any point in doing more of what has gotten the two of you have been doing to get to this very low point?

Unicorn -

I have wanted to reply on many of your threads but didn't think I would be able to add anything of value to you. I have read all of your posts and I see your reasoning as to why you stay in the relationship, but I guess that's what I'm getting at... .

You can reason these things to death, analysis paralysis if you will.

But are you happy with him? On a day to day basis? Do you have even moments of happiness that help get you through the day, and makes you want to continue the relationship?

That's the place I had to get to emotionally before I could make a decision on whether to stay or to go, the rule of thumb I've learned was when the pain of staying is greater than the pain of leaving... what choice do you have?

Best to you,

L

Your SO shared how he felt- he enjoyed seeing you.

It is important to have a boundary between what is his and what is yours. His feelings are his, yours are yours. If he is happy to see you, then he is. This isn't a statement about your feelings.

Your schedule is your responsibility. If you are not available to stay up at night, then you can say ( nicely) "I am really tired and need to sleep, can we talk another time? "  It isn't his fault that you didn't sleep.

There are no two people on the planet that are going to share the exact same points of view. Our challenge is to hold on to ours while allowing others to have their. If we avoid conflict by constantly acquiescing our point of view, then that can be problematic, but so is too much arguing over differences. Your SO is who he is, he likes what he likes and he feels what he feels. I think it is significant that you don't like it. You have that right. However, at this point, if so much of what he thinks and says, and does, disagrees with you, you do have to question the point of continuing the relationship, if the two of you are frequently hurting each other's feelings.

From where I see it, he gave you a laptop, he helped you fix it, and he says he enjoyed seeing you. It is you who didn't enjoy this experience. You have every right to feel what you feel, but if you are not enjoying his company and it is an inconvenience to you, then this is something to consider.

Skip, I was writing this to ask for help. I'll read your links. I was saying if I could catch my SO invalidating me before he repeats himself maybe we can avoid an awkward moment. The spirit in which I wrote this was asking for help since he and I are getting along and I don't want to contribute to the problem.

Love, I have decided to stay but am conflicted because my SO still has not given me a case number for his divorce. Once I get that I will move over to the staying board. I personally can't commit to a relationship with a married man, even if he's separated.

Not Wendy, I enjoy his company but not after 8pm at night when I'm trying to wind down. He actually suggested we could work on this tomorrow. We used to have this routine of face timing while I was cooking dinner and I stopped that because it was too distracting. To be honest it is too distracting to FaceTime him when my daughter is home. I FaceTimed him this morning to continue working on restoring the computer he gave me and it was fine.

I think the problem started last night, and it was even my idea to FaceTime to solve this computer problem. Yesterday all the apps started failing: mail, Firefox and safari and so I finally asked for help.

He enjoys face timing me at night but I find it overstimulating. I know that is not his fault, that is my wiring. I also know it's up to me to hold my own boundaries. I do enjoy his company just not when I'd rather be taking a bath and watching house. Since discontinuing FaceTime with him during the evening I created my own bedtime ritual which works much better for me and last night I was off my game.

Does this make any sense?

You can simply and effectively manage the computer issue being fixed, vs it being so close to your bedtime, by asking to schedule time for the repairs at a more amenable time to you.

He enjoyed his time with you, he helped you ( a man fixes and helps his loved ones and you are his loved one).

I am curious, what is your take on the possibility that you may have an anxiety disorder that is fueling your upsets. Have you looked at this? I know when I am very anxious I can't sleep, and I worry at every tiny little indication of something wrong or I get triggered a ton. Do you think maybe treating a possible anxiety situation would be helpful to your capacity to handle the day to day stress of your relationship?

Carrying on a relationship with you while married was not a good thing to do. It is understandable that you don't want to be in a romantic relationship with a married man and that you are angry with him for this.

However you are choosing to remain in contact with him. This is a relationship. We are in relationships with many people in our lives. A relationship does not have to be romantic to be in conflict and drama.

Consider the conflict and drama in this relationship. The future and what your status will be is unknown. But in the present- conflict and drama in a relationship are a source of emotional pain. Regardless of the status of the relationship- he is a human being- so are you. Is this enough to consider what is going on between you?

Daniell85, I thought I disclosed I have a diagnosis of PTSD? I think that the very nature of being in an intimate relationship is probably triggering to me since I was diagnosed with PTSD after my divorce. Couple that with the fact that my d15 was home and I am still dealing with the consequences of what happened to her last weekend. That is why my bedtime routine is so important to me. I take medication to help me sleep and I still woke up last night after midnight due to a flashback of my d15 running away. Part of my problem is my parenting issues dovetail with my conflicted issues. Last night I had to go in my d15 room and put my hand on her bed to make sure she was in it. I haven't really gone too much into either my own mental health issues or my parenting issues on the conflicted board.

I've had about a decade of therapy to treat my PTSD and am taking medication to treat it.

Not Wendy, I'm not really angry with him right now, what I am is having a hard time standing up for myself. I know he enjoys seeing me at night but face timing with him while my d15 is home is too overstimulating to me. I realize that now. I appreciate what you are saying about human relationships. That is why I am bringing my little problems here, to help me deal with them before they become big problems.

I suppose I am mad at myself for not respecting my own limits. I knew better then to FaceTime at night to try to fix the computer. He also gave me an iPad and a remote keyboard which is why I am able to type this message. Last night I had to use my d15 laptop to send email related to her school.

Him erasing his computer remotely probably made me nervous and like he said he knew it probably needed to wait till tomorrow to solve. He is a coder by profession , among other things, so this kind of stuff is comfortable to him. For me it's way outside my comfort zone. :)

Speaking as a guy, and leaving all else aside (the r/s status, history, and PD behaviors), if I were helping my SO or good friend fix something and they responded like that, I'd feel resentful and angry. I'd also maybe even wonder why I bothered.

I would volunteer that it's your decision/boundary whether or not to stay up late and struggle with unruly technology.

Turkish, since I've never restored a MacBook Pro before I had no idea what I was getting into. I was able to talk to him about the fact that it was my responsibility to see that I sign off at 8pm and he admitted he was driven to get things done and if I didn't speak up I wouldn't get my needs met. He has a much stronger personality then me, after all that is what BPD is, a personality that doesn't fit in the culture, so we resolved that problem. He is much more forthright about getting his needs met then I am. He is an alpha male, small business owner, musician, etc, so he is used to being forthright and getting things done.

I think we resolved this issue, and I will continue to bring issues like this to the board so we don't get in further conflicts.

What do you think your SO is getting out of this relationship? How do you think it feels from his perspective?

I am the love of his life, he's in love with me, he wants to marry me, I am it. Those are all the things he tells me, all the time.

Also, I know it's hard for him to see me struggle and not be able to help me.

I remember about the PTSD. I wondered if the anxiety needed more management while you are under so much stress.

There's not much more I can do, nevertheless I am meeting with my daughter's psychologist tomorrow to discuss some "co-parenting" (he's not capable of it) concerns regarding my ex. I wish we had a parallel parenting board for those who have split from narcissistic partners.

///

I'm trying to keep the two relationships and their issues separate.

 

Unicorn,

Do you want to take steps to move back to stage 3 or do you want to continue on the path you are on?

FF

FF everything is fine. It was a problem caused by me not asserting myself. He made a point to log off by 8 tonight. We're still installing the operating system and will work on it again tomorrow.  Ill let you know when the next problem crops up. Bpd is defined by having a stronger personality then the cultural norm. He's not unaware of his problem. He's willing to tone it down .

Skip and FF I will also say my first husband was a HCP and that marriage did break down. My married fiancé is committed to working on the relationship. My former T did some couples counseling with us and he did teach us about the 4 horsemen. I did do further research into the gottman institute .

My SO also bought us both copies of the high conflict couple and it was so triggering to me because of my first marriage that I gave my copy to my first husband and my married fiancé gave his copy away. I'm going to try reading it again: I'm picking it up from the library tomorrow. My fiancé has accused me of putting my ex and my mother on him. That may be true it may not. Nevertheless I suppose I could say I am committed to making the relationship better however I'm still conflicted about him being married. That would be a core value difference however I do believe he is working with a divorce attorney. I have stopped asking him about his attorney .

My fiancé has accused me of putting my ex and my mother on him. That may be true it may not. Nevertheless I suppose I could say I am committed to making the relationship better however I'm still conflicted about him being married.


Consider that I think we do filter our relationships through issues we have had or have with others in our pasts.

When we are triggered- these are our triggers- the other person is not necessarily doing something to us. Being triggered isn't a signal to look at the other person's faults, or react to them, but a signal to work on something going on with us.

Resentments, anger, personal conflicts- are trigger points. It is good that you have recognized that you are not comfortable with him still being legally married, yet at this point the two of you are still communicating with each other.

If you are triggered when speaking to him, you don't have to react. You can take note that you are being triggered and then consider it later. From some of the interactions that you have posted, I wonder if some of this is a difference in communication style. If he is more outgoing, then statements like " I enjoyed seeing you last night" may come easily for him. If you think about this statement, it really is a statement of appreciation- something said to a partner, but could also be to a friend, or family member. " I like your company, I like to see you". It isn't a bad thing to say. However, it did bother you, and that is an opportunity to examine why.

Words mean things, they reflect what is going on inside us.

A quote from you saying "everything is fine" in the same thread where your relationship is identified as being in Stage 4 (the last stage before the nuke cloud goes off) is deeply troubling.

The contempt you show your SO comes from inside of you.  That is something you can attempt to control.  Nobody "makes us" do, say, or feel anything.

Many people have offered warnings and given exhortations for YOU to change the way you treat your SO.  That YOU are the one with your hands on the wheel of the r/s and you are steering the r/s "towards the wrong way".  Remember the video, ?

I'm deeply saddened at the direction that YOU are taking the r/s. 

I would hope you can take time to discuss the core issues in your r/s and avoid discussing minutiae of operating systems, bedtimes and facetime. 

FF

Step away until you can approach SO with your resentments dealt with. (This could take months or longer)

Then approach him from a place of love and compassion.

The issue that keeps coming up is your anger about his feelings and behavior towards you.

What are you doing to address your resentment?

You seem to think 'a better response' is the problem.  I do not think anyone here thinks that if you only responded better, then your issues would resolve.  There is no 'response' that could make drinking poison less toxic.  Serve it in a glass cup? No. Serve it in a bowl? No

I've followed your posts for awhile now.  These are a few elements that jump out at me as big red flags:

"married fiance" 

constant conflict over refusal to get divorced

long-distance relationship that is full of drama with much of it sounding like jr. high games

I don't understand the point of this relationship. 

You have also said "he will never move in with me and my daughter."  This is another thing I don't understand.  If he's your "married fiance" that you don't intend to ever marry, assuming he ever gets a divorce, then what is your goal?  I'm just really confused. 

Hi Not Wendy, its funny you should mention he is more outgoing then me, he claims he is 100% introverted and he doesn't have a need to interact with people, but he cares what I think. I think the reason it bothers me is he claims that I'm the only person he's ever felt that way about. At this point it still feels like he's trying to give himself to me as a way of trying to get away from his wife, which would be fine after I got a case number. I don't blame him for her holding up the divorce however I wish he could restrain himself until then. He something said very funny to me the other day, he said the woman he is in love with (me) is withholding her affection because of his marital status.

FF everything is fine means everything is fine, the relationship is fine, my SO is fine. Bedtime is a core issue with pwBPD.

He not moving in with my daughter and I in our 2BDR does not mean we are not getting married. I never said I didn't intend to marry him. My goals? To not fight with him. That's my goal, as well as to assert myself and take care of myself. My goal is to wait for him to get a divorce and relocate. He's trying to divorce. Its not his fault there are complications.

I agree I have a resentment to get over, that of him initiating a relationship with me while he was still married and then not following through on his divorce until I put my foot down. That's true. However that's not what this topic was about. It was about me not asserting myself about needing to say good night to him at 8pm and I solved that problem.

Unicorn,

Can you start a topic about dealing with your resentment?

I would also recommend starting a topic about "Is my relationship "fine"?"

If you are avoiding those topics because they are not the point of a thread, then let's have a separate thread for those.  The threads/topics that you are posting and solving might seem like progress, because it likely appears to you that you are solving things and moving forward.

In my opinion your relationship is continuing to deteriorate.  Just the other day you were talking about detaching.   

Your relationship is not fine.

FF

Unicorn - I understand that this may feel like you are being criticized, but it isn't for that purpose. One of the kindest things my sponsor did for me was to help me see things about myself that I was not able to see. I learned a lot from her honesty, but my first ( an natural ) response was to first feel angry over what she said. However, sometimes the best support is from people who don't agree with us.

I understand that it is a betrayal to find out that someone you are in a relationship is married. It can be a huge shock to our own boundaries and values. I believe that you had no intention of being involved with a married person, but now that you are, you are in an uncomfortable situation, as this man says he is in love with you and yet is still somewhere in the process of divorcing his wife.

What to do? In a sense, you are in limbo, and so is he. It is frustrating that your limbo is contingent on his getting a divorce, putting this fate of the relationship completely out of your hands. No matter what you do, or say, your relationship with him can not proceed to marriage until this situation is resolved. How frustrating.

The solution to this, albeit maybe not the solution you wish for ( which is for him to be divorced, but you have no control over this) is to look into yourself at your own boundaries.

There is much to consider when in a relationship with someone who is married to someone else- beyond any personal or moral considerations:

A person who is married is at some level, not completely available to you for a relationship.

To agree to be in such a relationship, one has to accept the terms of that as one has no control over the person's marital status.

This boundary is up to you to decide. Being in a relationship with an intermittently unavailable person is not easy for some people, but your SO is who he is and the terms are what they are ( at least for now).

One does not have to be in physical contact, or be romantic, to be in a relationship. At the moment, you are in a relationship - an emotional, dramatic, relationship with a married man. This isn't what you would wish for, but it is what it is.

The boundary between being in a relationship and not,  includes emotion.  What you are doing is being moral by not being affectionate, yet the two of you are in emotional, personal, and dramatic space with each other. One solution is to not engage in emotional relationships with married men at all, including him. If you don't want to be in a relationship with a married man, then don't be in one. If you do choose to be in a relationship with a married man, then you also have to accept that you made this choice to be in a difficult and complicated situation.

Whatever this man has done, he is a human being. From what I can see, he gave you a compute, helped you fix it, and said that he is glad to see you. This isn't a crime. Yet on your side of the fence, you are irritated because it disrupted your schedule. This is a problem for you, but it isn't something he said, or did. This is how you saw it, and it is something to consider for you.

The fate of the divorce is not in your hands, but the interactions on your part and the boundary of whether or not to be in a relationship with a man who is still legally married to someone else is in yours. So is how you perceive him and interact with him.

And you too are human, with feelings, and this situation is hurtful and stressful for you. But it is what it is, and to honor your feelings might mean to consider if a relationship with someone who is married is something you wish to continue.

I don't see how having a relationship with a disordered man who led you to believe he wasn't married when in fact he was, and still is married years later, could be "just fine."  

My point is this:  If your SO got a divorce tomorrow, then what?  His issues, your issues, will still be there.  If there's so much conflict and drama and work that has to be done just to get along with him now--when you're not married to him and he doesn't even live in your state--what is it going to be like if/when you do marry him?  

There are so many red flags all over your situation.  There were a few with my situation, too, over thirty years ago before I married my husband, but I didn't see them.  I wish I had because his behaviors have only become worse.  

Your relationship is a ton of work, and he isn't even physically around you.  




 

I wish I could not care that he was legally married to someone else and if he hadn't proposed marriage to me I wouldn't care but he did and I do. There's no way to undo his marriage proposal. Does what I'm saying make any sense?

I was talking about detaching because he had a volatile reaction to me telling him not to refer to our physical relationship while he was still married. That is definitely a hot button. The reason he mentioned it is because I told him my daughter had a hickey. I decided one way to avoid that conflict is to no longer tell him about my daughter's crush , that way he won't have a point of reference. My SO claims he's never had feelings for someone before so he can be quite immature sometimes.

Yes there is,

Say no.

FF

I don't know if it makes sense. It doesn't make sense to me in the contractual sense. A person can say anything they want to say, but if it isn't valid, it isn't valid.

A person who is married can not in all validity ,propose to someone else. Sure, he or she can say it, someone can say anything they want, but is it valid?

What if, for instance, I drew up a contract to sell you a house. You agreed. Then in the transaction, the bank calls and says the house is owned by someone else. It was not possible to sell you this house as it was not ever for sale in the first place.

The agreement is null and void. The contract doesn't have to be undone because it isn't a valid contract. Now, if I did that, it would be a nasty thing to do. People do nasty things. Sometimes we can not undo them. But at some point we have to deal with our reaction to it whether or not it is to be resentful, seek payback, let go.

Yes, he proposed to you. You can't undo that he said it, but a non valid proposal is nothing to undo because it isn't valid. But even if it was, a proposal is just that- and people can undo, take back or refuse a proposal. Even a valid proposal is not a permanent commitment.

Unicorn, I can empathize with where you are at. Early in our relationship my ex proposed to me. This was huge news in our community and I was so, so excited. I've never been married and this was like a dream come true for me. We had a party, friends toasted, I was on cloud nine.

As the devaluation started, then the recycling, the plans for the wedding never materialized. In fact the whole idea seemed to grow further and further away as his problems manifested. Friends stopped asking when the date was, which was painful in a particular way. Then they stopped even asking if we were together.

It was humiliating for me to have to confront that this sacred promise of marriage was in fact a farce. I was very resistant to confronting that truth for a long time. I wanted to believe we were still engaged, even if none of our actions looked like it. How many engaged couples have a fiance who breaks up with them all the time? In the time we were supposed "engaged" we had several friends who actually met, engaged, got married, and had anniversaries. So much for that!

I could give a hundred examples, but over and over again I was forced to confront that the proposal wasn't founded on anything concrete and lasting. For him it was what he was feeling at the time. When he was idealizing me, he wanted to get married. When was devaluing me, he wanted to break up and be abusive. The sad truth is both feelings were real for him, and both equally shallow, fleeting and unreliable. In fact just a week or so before his last break up with me he wanted to go look at rings. By this time I felt like I was in a relationship with a volatile two year old. His proposal didn't mean anything real. I could lie to myself to the cows came home about it, but it was just part of his shifting emotions.

You write: "My SO claims he's never had feelings for someone before so he can be quite immature sometimes."

This raised  red-flag  to me, because my ex often claimed he had never had feelings for anyone before. I should have paid attention to that. How does someone get to their 50s and not have feelings for someone? In my case I found out that he told his previous girlfriends the same thing. If it is true your SO hasn't ever had feelings for anyone before, then what does that say for him marrying someone he didn't love? He's making an excuse for his immaturity.

I also don't want you to feel criticized. I know how tremendously hard this is. But I see you veering between defending his behavior and defending your resentments about it, instead of stepping back and looking at the big picture, even if it is painful.

I wanted to let you all know I have read your replies, tried to reply a couple of times, don't have anything worthwhile yet. Thank you for your time and energy.  |iiii

Proposing to you when he is married to someone else is a big red flag in itself. Making you feel wrong for asking when he is going to get divorced while telling you you are the love of his life is another. He is playing games with you that won't end of you ever do indeed marry him.

NO

Quite bluntly... .

You are speaking like a victim. 

You are speaking like a person who is not in charge of her life but allows life to be in charge of you.

You are speaking like circumstances decide your fate... .vs you deciding on circumstances to be in.

You are speaking like a person who has no volition to make her own decisions.

To NOT decide... .

and allow HIM control

And allow his ex wife control

Etc

... .Are all choice YOU have made.

You cannot change a thing until you embrace the wonderment of being in charge of you and your decisions.

Please start using empowering language vs victim talk.

You are where you are... .

Because of your active choices today

You are the one who has power to change this.

It starts with owning your decisions and choices.

... .

For me to post... .and pretend like I am helping you by telling you the words to engage in the last conflict... .

Is enabling

Is engaging in drama

Is triangulating

Is rescuing

My boundaries don't allow that.

I rather be an example of good boundaries and not instruct you on how to engage in the latest drama.  Maybe my actions will be heard by someone.

This is NOT fine at all.  I think you know that.

When I was commenting earlier, my point was that the trajectory of the relation is on a failure path.

Regardless of the circumstances, you (Unicorn) are investing time (month and month) in this relationship and you have dreams that your partner will get a divorce, move locally, and you will live happily ever after.

The problem I see  is that the two of you are treating each other in ways that will destroying the fabric of a "relationship".

Week by week, you compassion for this man wanes. If there is another suspected breach of trust, you will

His side: He has destroyed any trust that you had, but more importantly,  he is not doing the conventional things to rebuild it. Instead, he is winning the battle of wills on setting lack of transparency as a normal and is getting you to more and more accept it/live with it. Your relationship is on a "need to know" basis.  You will be able to buy into this for while, but ultimately you will come to realize that betrayal is a norm in the relationship. The next serious "suspected" breach of trust will have you second guessing everything. Every trust breach is like cancer unless resolved. It grows and grows under the surface.

Your side: You are resentful and have become emotionally unavailable, irritable, and controlling. You have pounded repeatedly on his self esteem, made him plead, and rejected him. You've dis'ed him to your family, your church friends, etc.  Putting him down and rejecting a man is like a cancer, too. He hates it. It grows and grows under the surface.

Your threads here are mostly about getting validation and advice on how to walk the line and not blow up the relationship, but still assault on his self esteem, punish him, make him him craw, and reject him.

He is firmly entrenched in providing you selective information and not yield. You have erected a punishment system to try and force him to be more transparent. Battle. Battle.

The conventional solution is to get a therapist engaged to help see it the two of you can get your values aligned. I suspect he doesn't want a third party to start digging into this because he won't be able to "BS" him like he has you. I'm not sure why you don't want to do it - I wonder if you know, deep down, the therapists is going to say that you rtwo are not good for each other, and you aren't ready to let go of the "dream".

It's cold war.

You need to get on a very different path for this relationship to survive. More of the same and "tweaking it" might feel like progress, but it completely ignores the severe damage smoldering below the surface.

I ran into the same bullheadedness and intentional lack of transparency in my relationship. Everything was a fight for simple, normal, basic standard of behavior. I stepped out of the relationship. I am not sure I am done DONE, but I don't know what to do except to not participate in a relationship where the other party is relentlessly trying to force me to accept poor treatment and give over control to them.

I see Unicorn in the same situation in a lot of ways. People have commented about her taking her relationship back to a different stage and go in the opposite direction.

I am curious, since her partner is so stubborn and lacking in transparency, what is there to actually do... what steps can actually be done when your partner flat out won't work with you?

Hi, I think you really misunderstood me here. I'm not saying I'm powerless to say no. I'm saying the relationship started off at the level of engagement and there's no way to undo that. If he hadn't proposed to me I wouldn't care if he was married or not because it wouldn't affect me. The only thing him being married prevents is him marrying me.

We had a therapist working with us for a couple of years, and that therapist thought he was good for me. That therapist thought he was in a dead marriage and had an opportunity to be with the woman he was in love with.

The last few days have provided a couple of opportunities for me to get into it with my SO and I let it go so despite how I appear on the board, I am getting better. Today's example was when he told me he talked to his mother, his mother told him she was happy for him that he met me, said she was tired of his wife. This kind of irritated me and I said to him "so what happened to that good news you said you might have for me this week?" And he said it wasn't the end of the week yet. He texted me after the phone call and asked if he said something wrong but I didn't respond to that, I let it go. Two such things have happened in the past few days where I had an opportunity to pick a fight with him and I didn't, I let it go. I don't know about you, but to me that means I'm getting better.

I'm really trying hard _not_ to ask him about his divorce and I think that does count for something, at least to me. I'm really trying hard not to triangulate. Perhaps I should talk more about the positive things I'm doing and less about the problems.

Daniell85 I've also decided to stop asking my partner about his divorce. THat's really helping and Allowing me to focus on the things I do enjoy about him like the kind of work he does, or the way he helps my daughter with her homework. I've found that if we don't talk about the issue of his divorce we're fine. I miss my ring but I won't put it back on until I get a case number. He has _really_ good advice when it comes to my daughter, its on par with that of my sober male friends or even my daughter's psychologist or guidance counselor.

Like I've been saying, if he hadn't proposed to me, I wouldn't care if he was married because it wouldn't have mattered. God only knows how many men I went out with in the past who might have been separated but not divorced. See what I'm saying? Being married isn't a problem until you want to marry someone else.

FF i am thinking about it and in thinking about I know my part, at least in the beginning of the relationship, and how I ended up in this kind of relationship in the first place. However after the fact he was married rose to the surface that changed everything and then the bad behavior became his problem, not mine. Nevertheless I am thinking about your suggestion to post about resentment  and will post it when I can. Thank you for your feedback.

I think many people are misunderstanding me here. I'm not saying I'm obligated to him. What I'm saying is that by him starting our relationship off at the level of engagement he made his marriage my business. Had he simply asked me out, which would have been hard to do long distance, it wouldn't have mattered if he had been married.

Somebody once put it succinctly on this board that the only thing him being married prevents is him marrying me.

I'm learning how not to pick up the gauntlet and I've avoided two arguments with him so far in two days. I'd say I'm making progress.

Hi Not Wendy, I don't know if I replied to this or not so if this is a repeat, I apologize. I was able to assert myself to him and tell him I need to say good night by 8pm and we resolved that problem. In fact he made a point to observe the clock the night after that.


Thank you Not Wendy. I think for me I want to not ask him about his divorce, which is what members had advised months ago. That for me will give me some peace of mind. I did experience a challenging phone call with him today which I managed to ride out without getting in trouble, so perhaps I am getting better.

For me to post... .and pretend like I am helping you by telling you the words to engage in the last conflict... .

Is enabling

Is engaging in drama

Is triangulating

Is rescuing

My boundaries don't allow that.

I rather be an example of good boundaries and not instruct you on how to engage in the latest drama.  Maybe my actions will be heard by someone.

Amen Sunflower! This is exactly what I have expressed in past posts to Unicorn. By answering questions on the most recent conflict is helping Unicorn to avoid the core problems of the relationship which effectively isn't helping Unicorn at all.

Sunflower has a post about enabling on the PI if you want to discuss that  there. Please keep this discussion focused on my topic which was about asserting one's needs for sleep  when in a relationship with a person with Bpd traits.

Quite frankly... .

Yes, you are correct... . I do not feel able to understand you.

I would like to be able to support and give constructive feedback.

However, my experience is that it is so hard for me to understand you.

My observations are... .

... .one post you are committed

... .another post you are using detaching tools

... .another you are asking how to engage in conflict

... .another you express desire to step back from conflict

... .you have a problem

... .all is fine

And so on.

These ideas do not seem to change throughout the month.  They change and swing like a pendulum throughout a single thread.

I have no way to help you when I cannot identify where you are at.

I suspect there are others that feel similar, that want to be helpful, but to do so is a struggle for us.

Personally... .

I find much of the dialogue and quotes of his texts very distracting to the issues rather than illustrative of them.

I rather hear you take a stance on something and support you in that stance.

 
Fair enough

Can you share alternative actions you could have taken?

Since I am not currently able to commit to the relationship until my SO provides me with a case number for his divorce it may be  best if I refrain from posting about it further on the conflicted board. If I can get to a point of radical acceptance I will move over to the staying board. That way people won't feel like they are wasting their energy  by enabling me or advising me on how to engage in conflict. Thank you for your time.

This is your choice to make, you own it.  

I will not attempt to persuade you differently.

However, at the risk pf JADEing, I will sincerely restate... .

Can you share alternative actions that you could have taken?

... .

We are all here to learn from the collective wisdom of one another.  Just as you are here learning about communication with SO, I am also here to learn communication skills.  

The boundary in a relationship is not only at the commitment, or the bedroom door.

Morality aside, someone who is married legally can not legally marry someone else. The marriage needs to be dissolved first. I think that is clear.

If one has a boundary to not be emotionally involved with a married man, then that boundary includes the nature of the interactions.

We are in relationships with everyone we are in contact with. It is our boundaries and theirs that determine the nature of that relationship.

For instance, if I am speaking to a married man who I know, and I don't wish to cross a boundary, then there are boundaries to that interaction. It is appropriate to say something like " or "congratulations on your child's graduation". ( this is likely to not be personal- probably announced in the paper) or the new grandbaby or something like that. It would be inappropriate for me to say something derogatory about my relationship with someone else, or to step over the line of drama, triangulation, deeply personal information. All this can go on in a hallway, online, and with no physical contact- no commitment. One can have a dramatic emotional relationship in many contexts.

ie, the boundaries of the relationship and the content and context of the exchange between two people are determinants of a relationship.

I make this point because, even though your SO proposed to you when married, and there have been some boundaries in the relationship, it remains emotionally charged. Yes, he was wrong to do this, but by remaining in the emotional atmosphere of the relationship, this is in a way, complying in the situation. The choice to be in such a relationship and the boundaries are determined by both people, but the only choice someone can control is their own. The point is that, while he was wrong to propose, the choice to continue this LDR in this manner was yours too, and so he is not entirely to blame for the current relationship.

There is probably nothing you can do to change the fact that this man is still married with an unknown divorce date, but your side of this is up to you. As of now, if the choice is to stay, than radical acceptance would include accepting this uncertain situation and the responsibility for the choice to stay in it.

I learned from this thread that it is my job to tell my SO when I need to go to sleep. PwBPD have abandonment issues around bedtime so this is an area where self care is really important, especially since sleep is an issue for me.

Yes right now I am choosing to stay in a relationship with a separated man. I think it's important to make that distinction as they have been physically separated since July 2012.

----////

I am working on a post about my resentments and I'm also thinking about another one "is my relationship healthy?"

-----

I know it is not recommended to hang out on the deciding board for too long. I wonder if that has changed since it has also expanded to conflicted?

I did have an awkward conversation with my SO yesterday which he is still processing today which I kind of want to post about but I also don't want people to think they are enabling me by responding.

Great, it sounds like you are saying that you know what to do:


How about working on a plan now... .

When you imagine yourself telling your SO that you need sleep, what thoughts and feelings come up for you?

We worked through that issue the next morning, I guess that part got lost in the discussion. I can link to that when I get on my computer. I am dealing with a situation right now coming out of him telling me about what his mother said to him on the phone yesterday. I would like to post about it on a new thread however I don't want members to think they're enabling me or advising me on how to engage in conflict. Perhaps it might be better to post about my resentments and whether or not my relationship is healthy.

It seems we got as far as identifying a problem in this thread:

You have trouble telling your SO when you need space for sleep.

If you address your issues with taking space to recharge and self soothe, IMO, this would greatly enhance your life.

This is a repeating theme I have watched you struggle with.

We seem to get this far:

Identify the problem

Now you are moving onto:

Identify another problem

Next step I see:

Formulate a plan for taking space

Then:

Implement plan

You are making a choice to identify problems. (And sometimes identify tools)

You are making a choice to not take this further.

I am sorry that I cannot help you Unicorn.  This must be painful.  

One of our tasks is to decide which is our responsibility and what is not.

For instance, you- and anyone else- can start a post on something ( as long as the posts are in compliance with board guidelines- and this goes for responses too )

Other posters have the choice to reply or not.

The other posters are responsible for their own reply. If that is enabling, then they are also responsible for that.

You can choose to post, other can choose to reply or not. Then, it is up to you to decide what to consider in the replies to you, as they are free to say what they wish.

Just like in any relationship, the relationships with posters can come with emotions or advice that you like or don't like.  Also, sometimes information is useful whether we like it or not. Still, it is up to us to process anything someone says to us, accept it, or let it go. It is good practice in any interaction to know what is "our stuff" and what is not.

SF, I apologize for my poor communication skills. What I was trying to say is I resolved the problem of needing to stand up for myself in regards to my need for sleep.

Not Wendy, I hear what you are saying. I did write up a post about my resentments which was suggested I do.

The enabling comment is a sore spot for me as I lost my ACA sponsor over this issue. She was an adult child of disordered parents and also had some BPD traits herself and she was triggered by my relationship with my SO. I'm still grieving the loss of that relationship so anything that reminds me of that makes me weary of saying anything further.

People are in ACOA to deal with similar FOO issues. I know it is hurtful to lose a sponsor. It does happen - both ways - people choose another sponsor, or a sponsor decides they can not help a person. I know it hurts, but considering the nature of the relationship, sometimes there is a mismatch, or the sponsor doesn't feel their help is effective.

This is the time to seek out another one if you wish.

However, this board is a collection of people who are relating to each other and in a sense, a place to practice relationship skills. Some feedback may be upsetting, but it could be valuable. If you have had several people show concern about enabling dysfunction, it could be something to look at.

Hi Not Wendy, I do have another sponsor, and the woman who was sponsoring me dropped out of the program. She felt she was enabling me to be verbally abused by my SO. That doesn't happen anymore. Its different then what people are saying to me here. She actually met my SO. When I would tell her about what he did to me it would trigger her because it would remind her of her father. There are other issues that caused her to drop me which had nothing to do with my SO.

I've never felt like I've enabled someone, probably because I've spent over a decade in Al-Anon, and have been working the 12 steps in one form or another since I was a teenager. Also I've seen people enable my ex, it is only when I started asking for help with my SO that people started talking about enabling me. Note: no professional has ever said anything like that.

I know from my own experience with my ex that talking about enabling someone can be a way of asserting superiority over them or judging them so I really try to refrain from that kind of language. I personally find it condemnatory and hurtful.

I try to apply what I've learned in 12 step programs to this board, such as no cross talk, no advice giving, but it can be hard.

____

I should also add that my years in al-anon have taught me that often wanting to "help" someone is more about me then it is about them. I have very few urges to "help" people these days. In fact, I have plenty of opportunities to be of service right under my nose if I want to take them. I have a couple of woman I could offer to sponsor if I wanted to in 2 programs that I am in however my daughter is my first priority and being of service to her is my prime directive right now. I guess sometimes I feel a tad bit insulted  by some of the things that are said to me here however I try to work past that because this is the only place I can come for help regarding being in a relationship with a person with a personality disorder. So I try to roll with the punches the best I can. I know from previous experience that online forums can be vicious so I always try to step back now when things get heated in the slightest.

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