BPDFamily.com

Well, things are definitely progressing, but I'm not sure what direction they are headed in.

On Friday, my x told me that she wanted to take a therapeutic break for a week and see how she feels about us and our future together.  Well, what she actually said was that she is going to disappear for a week and try to decide what she wants to do. We haven't managed to make it through 24 hours yet without communication. She's been quiet today though, so maybe she's starting her week of disappearing.

Sadly, her birthday is also this week, and she'll receive her present, so I'll probably hear something from her in a few days.

I'm actually appreciating the silence. She's been obsessing about the ow and her becoming friends with people in my x's and my social circle. That resulted in a random email at 1:30 Sunday morning. The obsessing is causing my x a great deal of stress. She feels humiliated. I've done all that I can to validate, reassure her that I'm not interested in the ow, and console her pains.

In my x's mind, I'm to blame for bringing the ow into the social circle. The reality is that when the ow and I were a couple, she was in that circle and knew some of these people. She's rekindling those relationships now.

I have little hope that she will be able to recover from this. She feels abandoned by me and our mutual friends who are getting to know the ow. It appears to be more than she can bear.

I received an email from my x yesterday that opened a short dialog. At the end of it, she told me that after the week is up, we'll talk about arrangements for an event that is coming up that we'll both likely attend, and that how this week turns out will dictate how that conversation goes.

This morning, I received several text messages from her telling me how she does not feel important to me, and that every time I talked to the ow that I was choosing her over my x. She specifically asked me not to respond to the text messages, so I didn't.

I truly understand my x feeling the way that she does. I don't agree with her, but I understand where she's coming from, and whether or not I agree is irrelevant. She feels that I chose another over her.

I've been trying to repair this damage by showing her just how important she is to me, but it's so hard when she keeps pushing me away and every conversation turns into one about the ow, my not putting my x first in my world, and how I lied, cheated, and betrayed her. I'm not sure how to move forward if all that she does is look at the past.

I can clearly see her struggle and the pain that she feels in her text messages and emails. She has told me on multiple occasions that her life is like the movie Groundhog Day. She keeps reliving the pain over and over every day. It's painful for me to watch this, I can only begin to imagine how much it hurts her.

Arent you giving her power over you?

What power would that be?

I'm living my life and respecting her wishes while she figures out what she wants to do.

Well how exactly do you see this relationship that you guys have progressing? Shes already jealous and you guys are not togethers. She is also guilting you into making her #1 priority when you guys are not together. If you guys get back together would you not be able to befriend other females? Would her needs always have to be top priority? Are you putting your dating life on hold for her? Is it fair to make someone else wait because you yourself are not ready for a relationship? These are just some thoughts

All are very good questions, and since I don't post a lot about what is going on, it makes sense to ask them.


The r/s was progressing pretty well until I did something stupid and re-involved the ow in my life. That cratered everything.

When I did it, I didn't actually realize that I was doing it. I went on a group motorcycle ride (207 bikes, 300+ people). A mutual friend to all involved borrowed the motorcycle that the ow had bought for me and I had given back to her. The ow came on the ride and hung out with my group of friends. My x decided that I purposefully did not invite her on the ride because of the ow. Thus, feeling that I put the ow before her. My version of that reality is that my friends and I invited my x several days before and she declined.

Now, my x is trying to decide if she can get passed all of the emotions that have re-arisen as a result of the ride (more on that in a moment).


Yes, she is jealous, but I don't let that effect me too much right now.


Trying to guilt me would be more appropriate. Honestly, I don't mind making her my priority if she would be willing to make me hers. Since we are not in that type of relationship, I just keep doing my thing.


OK, this is where I mentioned that I'd provide more info earlier. It isn't just any female, it's this particular female. The ow is my ex-fiance. We were together for over seven years. When things went south between my x and me, I reached out to the ow for emotional support since she knows me better than anyone else. I should not have done that.

For months, my x begged me to stop talking to the ow and I blatantly refused to do so. This was when I first learned about my CPTSD and my x's BPD. My x refused to offer me support, so I sought it outside of the r/s.

That's why it's such a big deal about the ow; because of the emotional affair. Now, my x doesn't trust that the ow will not be re-involved in our r/s. The motorcycle ride solidified that fear for her.

IMHO, your significant other's needs should be a priority, so I'm not sure what this means.


No. There's no one else that I want to date.


No, but little in life is fair, and a r/s with a pwBPD is anything but fair until things level out and the pwBPD starts to get help.

But, she's not "making" me do anything. It is my choice what I am doing. I choose to give her the time and space that she needs. I could choose to walk away. I could choose to make the ow my priority. I could choose a lot of different paths, but this is the one that I choose. I'm the only one in control of that.

Meili, I keep thinking you are taking her surface explanation for the mistrust too literally. Her profound mistrust isn't because you necessarily did anything so "wrong." She comes into the dynamic with mistrust, mistrust that comes from long before you did anything.

Yes and no.

I have not forgotten that distrust is part of the package with her. I have fueled that distrust lately though and that's the part that I'm paying attention to.

I know that I triggered her trust and abandonment issues. She's also very stressed about her finances. This keeps her emotionally aroused all of the time. The emotional arousal has led to insomnia which keeps the cycle going.

That's what I'm up against at the moment. I know that none of it is within my control, so all that I can do, with regard to her, is sit back and watch.

As I've mentioned in the past, I don't normally post the day-to-day details about my situation, but I seem to be struggling today and need to vent.

My x has a lot going on in her world besides me that is causing her stress, so things are really hard right now. Today is her birthday and her apparently her father forgot. Also, she's got financial problems that are really weighing on her.

Yesterday, my x and I chatted via email all day about things that had nothing to do with our relationship, and it was nice.

Then my father let her know that he was going to go on a public, motorcycle dinner ride that my x was leading. She lost it with me. Telling me how humiliated she has been, how embarrassed she'll be around my father because I repeatedly chose the ow over her, and how I've ruined her life. Her motorcycle wouldn't start, so she didn't go on the ride.

I tried to be validating and supportive and let her know that my father likes her and is supportive of our reconciliation. She told me that she'd be embarrassed and ashamed if we reconciled because she'd then be my "second choice." I then made the mistake of telling her that others don't actually see it that way; that they see her as being my choice because I've exorcised the ow from my world.

One of our mutual friends (one of the ones that she specifically asked that I don't hang out with because he's "her" friend) was going to lead the ride since she couldn't. Only a few people showed up, so they decided to cancel the ride. The friend called her to tell her what happened. He also told her that he met my father. During that conversation, he also informed her that he met the ow at another motorcycle event last week, and that he invited her to come on their rides. From what I gather, the ow politely declined and said something about the reason that she can't go on the rides.

That was a trigger for her. Things went south real quick after that. She called and raged about not being my first choice, being humiliated, and all of the other things that I listed above.

I tried to console her, validate, and reassure her that she's always been my first choice. She doesn't believe me. I get that. She feels as she does and that's her reality.

She made threats about walking away for good and finding someone else who will put her first in all things. I calmly told her that if that's what she feels that she needs to do, I'll understand, but I'd appreciate the opportunity to show her how I feel first. There was a small extinction burst.

I'm not sure how to show her that she's important to me, loved, and the one that I choose to be with. She's so focused on the past that is all that she can see. She totally discounts the fact that I've gotten into therapy so as to not repeat my pattern in the past wherein I reached out to another woman for validation because my x wouldn't/couldn't give it to me. She tells me that she can't move forward because the ow keeps popping up and causing problems. I want to tell her that she's the one keeps making the ow an issue. We are all involved in the same social circle and that regardless of whether or not we reconcile, she's going to have accept that as a fact. I know that won't help though.

I need to find a way that she can see to reassure her that she's my choice and the one that is important to me.

Something that I need to remember, it was only two weeks ago that I went on that ride and the ow came. My going on the ride was a betrayal to my x. It's still very fresh and painful to her. I need not discount that and cannot expect her to "just get over it" and move on.

What's happened here is that the two of us have entered into a cycle of feeling unimportant and rejected. She pushes me away, and I no longer chase so she feels rejected. This causes her to reject me more so I have no desire to chase.

I need to figure out how to break that cycle and still remain true to myself.

Meili, consider that there is nothing YOU can do that you are not already doing to show her that she is your choice, etc.

Is she at all open to counseling (separately or together)? Seems to me the good news here is that she's been focused for quite a while on one specific issue (you chose the OW--which I don't subscribe to BTW). To the extent that is the real problem, that presents a pretty good target in couple's counseling.

It doesn't sound right that the recent ride the OW came along for is the "why" here. Before that ride, things were still not OK. This fear/hurt was not subsiding and then just refreshed by that incident.

She has gone from "NO! I will not go to counseling with you (or separately) because I kicked me in the... .last time we tried that" to "I'm not ready for counseling yet."

I agree, she is VERY focused on this one issue and that does help in some regard.

I also agree that there is nothing for me to do other than just remain consistent in words and actions. Thank you for that reminder.

To hear my x tell it, the fear/hurt were subsiding before the ride. Two days before, she wanted to meet with me and talk about "us" and the possibility of a future together. Also, after the ride, she wanted me to come over to talk. Of course, she didn't convey this to me until after she found out that the ow went on the ride. Had I known any of it prior to the ride, there would have been no way that the ride would have ever happened. All that I knew was that I was still being rejected because of the past and that my current efforts were doing nothing. But, the ride reset everything in my x's mind.

Meili, your x is behaving horribly here, blaming you for things you aren't doing and for how she is feeling.

The thing about the ride with your dad... .well, you tried to validate, but what is valid. She feels uncomfortable around your dad since she's currently broken up with you. That's valid. The rabbit hole she went down, attacking you... .no that isn't valid.


The thing with OW is tricky. Since X is prone to jealousy, and insecure about this, it was a bad idea, and stopping it sounds like the right choice for your (potential?) r/s with X.

The rest of your situation isn't so clear.

Having a deep emotionally intimate friendship with somebody besides your romantic partner can be an emotional affair, or it can be simply a healthy way to live your life--with close friends who care about you in your life!

When your romantic r/s goes south, getting external emotional support is a good thing to do, assuming you do it with somebody safe. A good therapist is safe. A parent, sibling, or a trustworthy, intimate friend who knows you well would be safe... .*IF* they don't have any interest in the outcome other than your wellbeing.

And that is key. If OW and you have healed from the breakup up and both know that you couldn't be romantic partners and aren't interested in trying again, but still care for each other as friends, she would be a good choice. OTOH, if some secret part of you wants to try again, or if you think she secretly (or even openly) wishes she had another chance with you, she would be a very bad choice, and wouldn't be safe at all! Or if OW just happened to hate X for some unrelated reason, again, not a safe choice!

I don't expect X to be able to sort this out, or even believe the answer if OW was a safe person for you to talk to.

But in your heart, you know what you did... .which was it?
A: Asking a good friend for support (which was triggering to X, and perhaps you should have known better)?
B: Asking the wrong person for support, 'cuz she was too involved/connected/something?
C: Your effort to have some sort of emotional affair with OW?

I agree, it is horrible behavior and exactly what caused me to reach out to the ow to begin with about a year ago.

The short answer to the question is: A: Asking a good friend for support (which was triggering to X, and perhaps you should have known better)?

The ow and I started talking when my x and I had broken up (one of the several times that I couldn't handle the stress of the r/s and tried to end it). The ow was involved in a r/s with someone else, and it was clear that we had both moved on in our lives.

My x and I got back together and showed up for a motorcycle ride, and who shows up by the ow. That's where all this started for me. It apparently started months earlier for my x though. The ow's dog got loose and my contact info was all that was available, so I retrieved the dog and contacted the ow. We talked for about an hour. My x knew that the ow was at my house and got really upset. I didn't know that until many months later though.

Problems continued with my x because I didn't know how to handle things between us or internally. I kept asking her stop being abusive (silly me, I thought that would work). The ow was a safe place for me to vent because she was involved and planning her future with her new guy.

My x found out that I was talking to the ow and demanded that I stop. I didn't. I knew that I needed someone safe to talk to about everything. The ow was very supportive of my efforts to make the r/s with my x work because she knew that I was mostly happy with her. I defended my right to talk to whomever I choose. I even told my x that the ow was safe for me because she couldn't hurt me. That didn't go over well.

At some point, I agreed to not talk to the ow again. Another break-up happened, I reached out to the ow. Then my x and I recycled. My x found out that I was talking to the ow and it all started over again.

I can't remember if this happened two or three times. The exact same cycle.

Last April when I ended the r/s with my the last time, after a few weeks, I reached out to the ow again. I was adamant about moving on from my x. The ow had just ended things with her new guy too, and her mother (and cat and dog) had just died. She was emotional. Apparently, she latched onto me. I didn't know this until some time after I began trying to reconcile with my x.

The ow was told in no uncertain terms that there would be nothing romantic between us. She wanted more, but I was very clear that there would be nothing more.

So, what I thought was a safe friend turned out to be something different in the end.

I kinda thought I remembered some of this, from one of the other times it came up.


I agree that OW's not worth the risk of triggering X as long as you still hope to reconcile with X.

If you ever give up on X, you might be able to have OW in your life as a friend again, if OW isn't too pissed at you over this rollercoaster ride that X is taking you (and somewhat her) on.

And give her desire for "more" with you... .in that hypothetical future world I mentioned, I might go to her for support about your mom, dad, dog, job, or something happening to your bike... .but probably wouldn't reach out to her and cry on her shoulder about your troubles with X or any future romantic interest of yours.

Oh, yeah, I definitely won't being going to the ow to cry on her shoulder regarding any relationship issue in the future, no matter what happens between my x and me.

When I reached out to her the last couple of times, it wasn't even about things between my x and me. I had just learned about my CPTSD. I was trying to cope with the issues from my FOO. I asked my x to be a bit more supportive about it (in fact, I'm still asking for that and did so last night... .the lack of empathy makes it a futile request though). My x openly refused to try to have any understanding about what I was/am going through and how it has affected my relationships.

Talking to the ow about how it played out in our relationship helped me discover the magnitude of the issue. I would have chosen to address it with my x, but as I said, she was (and is) unwilling to do so.

So, the dynamic kinda played out like this:

X was abusive
I terminated the relationship
I reached out to ow for comfort
X asks me to reconcile
I continue to talk to the ow
I stop talking to the ow
I learned about CPTSD and turned to my x
X refused to offer any sort of empathy
I terminated the relationship
I reached out to the ow regarding the effects of the CPTSD on my relationships
X and I get back together
Repeat from after the first recycle.

oh dear - certainly no easy/ quick fixes here. the inter-connectedness of your set of friends, her friends and mutual aquaintances and relatives and ex-partners is fertile ground for lots of re-triggers re the ow situation. i assume you live in a pretty small (rural?) community? in a big city, it's so easy to stay out of each others' ways, once things have gone pear shaped. . in a community that's so small that everyone (and their run-away dogs) keeps bumping into each other, your x is certainly going to need some small-town skills re dealing with ex's and ow's. i actually think i'd find the situation very challenging if i were your x, even without BPD! it'd take a lot of character and self-esteem and humour to face the ow squarely and to say "you know what? you had your chance with him, but he's chosen me, cos he loves me better, so back off and keep a respectful distance, you hear me?". i wonder if you could give some thought to how social hygiene works in small town communities.? in small towns, everyone knows each other's failings and everyone is inter-connected somehow - it's like a big, messy family, with all the pro's and all the con's. given that interactions with the ow can't be avoided totally, and hence re-triggering will occur relatively regularly, i think it could be helpful to sit down with your x and use tools like humour to try and work out how to deal with ex's and ow's in tiny communities. if your x does end up deciding she wants to reconcile, maybe some small town social gesture that you guys now belong together will be helpful. if you guys are from a motor bike community, maybe something symbolic like joint tatoos, that everyone on bike rides can see, will clarify the status of you and your x to everyone including the ow, socially? just brainstorming, in the hope that some outside-the-square thinking might lead to a good idea later down the track.

The town is actually medium sized. It's the fact that the motorcycle community is relatively small and tight-knit. And, for those of you that don't know, bikers gossip worse than 13 year old girls!

We've actually had some dialogue today that was helpful to me. OK, I admit that I probably shouldn't have done this on her birthday, but I just couldn't take it anymore and told her that her vagueness about so many things triggers my insecurities. She let me know that she no longer feels the need to not be vague (although, she's always been vague about certain things) anymore because I never let her know what's going on with me (thus triggering her insecurities about the ow). I think that I need to pay attention to this.

I LOVE the out-of-the-box thinking. It's exactly what is needed in this situation I think. I actually like the matching tattoos. We talked about getting them when we were a couple.

She kinda did tell the ow to back off a few days ago. The ow actually contacted my x directly and told her that she just wants me to be happy and supported my x and me reconciling. I'm pretty sure, and from what my x tells me, this was a "female power move that was designed to cause problems." Well, it did. My x sent back something to the effect of the ow needs to leave me alone because I don't want her.

. hahahahahahaha. that is hilarious : ). all the more reason to apply small-town logic to it then, tho! . ooh this sounds good!  : ). . well, i almost agree about the "female power move designed to cause problems thing". i agree it was a female power move, but i think (in the long term) it's about clarifying the situation. yes, that may initially cause problems. but i think you should encourage the two women to sort it out amongst themselves. until they do that, nothing will ever be resolved, imo. give your x all the backing she wants/ needs to be empowered/ assertive/ bossy/ a bit b!tchy to the ow if that's what it takes to settle the issue of "who does Meili belong to". i would tell your x that you think that's what needs to happen - your x needs to socially clarify who Meili belongs to and that you support her 1000%. i would use the idea of joint tattoos as a kind of "reward" . i would tell her that if your x manages to socially clarify stuff with the ow, then you think it might be a sweet idea to get matching tattoos to celebrate that achievement/ milestone. (anyway, just more brainstorming. pick out what seems vaguely useful and discard all the rest!)  . : )

What's funny is that in no one's eyes by my x's is this a question. People still come up to me and talk to me like she and I are still a couple. I know that there people in the "community" who don't know that we're not a couple!


ahhh... .if only I could convince my x that I belong to her... .That would solve many of the problems.

: ). well, it doesn't matter if the community thinks you are together. what matters is achieving:. your x thinks the community thinks you belong together. your x thinks you belong to her and you know it. your x thinks the ow knows you belong to your x. this is something your x needs so clarify socially. i think this whole issue has next to nothing to do with BPD. i realise the BPD makes this all affect your x more deeply and more emotionally. but the BPD is not the issue, imo. empower her to take social action, to make female power moves to stake her claim on you. wave the joint tattoos enticingly in front of her nose, as a big fat juicy reward for having done the social power work it takes to mark you out as hers. : )

I agree that my x needs to think and believe those things.

The BPD just intensifies all of the emotions. Where a normal woman would feel threatened, angry, and/or jealous, the BPD woman experiences it with every fiber of her being. It has consumed my x. She is obsessing over the emotions that she's experiencing.

I think that it would all go much smoother if she'd decide that she does want me to be hers.

Have I mentioned that we have his and hers Harleys? There's no denying my feelings for her when people see us together.

I'm afraid she is too insecure to believe you on that. Certainly now. Perhaps ever. Given the history, including you breaking your promise not to contact ow a few times, it would be really hard to get over.

Are you willing to be in a relationship where you aren't trusted, where you are regularly accused of cheating or whatever x calls your involvement with ow? And likely dumped a few more times over it?

. : ). well, i am optimistic for you (with a biiiig dose of BPD realism thrown in). i've brainstormed all the semi-useful stuff my brain can come up with re this situation, so i will leave it with you as positive inspiration to seek a good, mutual way forward for you and your x in a small-community setting. i'll check in again once you've got some more progress (good or challenging) to report . and i'm very curious to hear how this develops. (i love gossiping like a 13 year old girl too, hehe). heaps of good luck to you and your x !

Thank you hmmmmm!


I believe that you are correct. The history of breaking the promises about the ow (even though the promises were always broken when we were not a couple) is really hard for her to get past. I can't blame her. It would be hard for me as well.


To be clear, she's never actually dumped me, but that's beside the point.

Yes, she calls it cheating. Even though we are not a couple, two weeks ago on the ride, that was cheating to my x... .a betrayal at the very least.

I really don't mind doing what I can to make her feel secure where the ow is concerned. Being berated and told that I'm the scum of the Earth because I cheated on her as a daily occurrence? Yeah, I'm not too thrilled about that prospect.

Oopsie, I see that you were abused enough that you terminated the r/s several times, instead of her dumping you. Yeah, kinda beside the point.

Anyhow, you can't "make her feel secure". Nobody can make anybody else feel anything. NOT POSSIBLE. No how, no way.

Unfortunately, with BPD she's not likely to get there on her own either. And with X and OW and you and your dad all in a small motorcycle community, this is likely to continue to blow up.

I agree that no one can "make" anyone feel anything. I used that phrase in the looses possible sense because it's socially acceptable to do so. What I meant was show her that I am trustworthy.

Yeah, I'm pretty concerned about the whole motorcycle community causing all of this to be a re-occurring problem.

Meili,

I think it can and will work for some and you if:

You give up the OW and all friendships not approved ( which you did)

All family not approved ( I know you dealt with some to her satisfaction already)

All rides not approved and motorcycle in garage until approved ( but she can when she wants as you are not a couple)

The other woman who was a friend and lover for over 7 years so not such a monster, will stay away which she has. Will give up all mutual friends which she did for many years and let your ex ( the recent)  tell her off and be rude for being a friends. Which she has... .so all good on that front. Sad but use to be for your ex ( recent) , and huge cheerleader for you both and ex for long time. No longer. Though want you happy, your choice and if you want her good, hopes all works out and you both are happy. But as a woman don't  think your ex of 7 years has to give up her mutual friends or club or rides for  the ex. I understand she is or was friends with you, let the woman tell her off, stayed away, even told her she would, all for what... .Your ex of 7 years needs to find her self esteem again poor thing and NOT let your friendship of past or recent ex make her think she can't have her old friends back. BPD or not, no trust and issues will always come up, some just plain tacky. Sorry. I understand she has the right to tell you her needs, wants, desires, ,rules, and you have to take it, or want to in name of working out and winning her trust. But try to see the ex of 7 years side and not let your recent ex run everyone around in  your life, or run them off in name of love she is not showing... .due to reason of the week. She was in your life many years and a friend when you both needed, end it and you have with her. But she doesn't need to take abuse from your recent ex for you to show loyalty. That is concerning, sorry. Just putting where it is.

All her friendships and male roles no matter what they are or how she spins it are OK, which are with you as you are not a couple.

 That when together if a couple her money, life, decisions are hers to make... .which is fine as it is her life, her decisions and you are not controlling. But eventually stability and sharing, caring and budgets might mean something to you, as is to some. Just mentioning as important to some and as we age our goals or retirement or not debt is a goal of some. Yes love is important and I am not a money oriented person either, but many marriages end due to financial strain or debt. You both have enough problems already. Not that you don't know that.  If not and you are cool with all great. Many wouldn't be as to some being in control of finances and not letting them control you even if in debt are important ( her worrying about money and having some problems you noted in other post:) )

That she can not trust you rage at you for turning to a friend in need, but she can turn to all and any she wants and still accuse you.

All in all glad all working out better, there is some progress and more talking. Sounds good, keep trying, I guess. Hopefully she loves her Birthday present, the time you have spent so far before this all got back, will get help with you and all will come together soon. Truly want you happy. You know I was both your biggest cheerleader for awhile so truly want you happy.

I would hope she is willing to try as well. Not be selfish or unkind to the other woman, who to me is being kind and classy. I give her more credit then I think you realize the gift of friendship she has given.  

Strongly agree with Lily Roze.  Please, do not encourage and support the current object of your affection in treating disrespectfully the OW, who has done absolutely nothing wrong here.

Possible food for thought: which of these women has shown you genuine love and respect? Which knows your true heart? Which feels a possessory interest in you?

. ooh, good points : ). Meili, people who have known you and your relationship with your x for longer, may be better able to give input into as to "whether this relationship is worth pursuing". i have zero insight into your situation as regards that. being in love can lead you to someone who you need to go on a journey with, because it's someone who you will grow with and learn from. but being in love can also lead you to an abusive person, who's patterns you find it nearly impossible to break away from. i have no idea what's the case here. if she's a partner worth pursuing, then i stand by what i said yesterday. love is messy and and poetic and weird, as is life. it's not just BPD that's messy : ). love is an incredibly powerful force and can heal things that seem insurmountable. but as all partners of pwBPD know, love can also keep damaging, unhealthy patterns going and often, love-just-ain't-enough, too. i hope for you that she's worth it and i hope for you that it works out.

Thank you all for the responses. I think that I need to clear a few things ups.

The ow is not an innocent in any of this. The reason that I ended that relationship in the beginning was because of repetitive cheating and disrespect. Also, I didn't realize until later (and I think that I wrote about this the other day), she tried to interfere with things between my x and I.

She hasn't ever treated me with much love or respect. She's tried to buy me for years now. When I split from my x, the ow bought me a motorcycle because she wanted me to "not have to ride a bike that matched my x's so that I wouldn't have to think of her every time I ride." She also tried to get me to quit my job and live in one of her rental houses. Essentially, if I had followed her wishes, I'd be controlled by her completely from a financial aspect.

Each time I told her to back off, she did for a few days and then would go right back to trying to control every aspect of my life. Even though we weren't a couple, and I've told her repeatedly that we never would be again, she even "demanded" that I not see other women if things didn't work out with my x.

As for my family, my removing them from my life had nothing to do with my x. When I did that, I wasn't even talking to my x. My FOO has always been abusive to me and it showed no signs of stopping, so I walked away from them for my own healing.

Is trying to reconcile with my x the best idea in the world? I don't know. I cannot predict the future. I do know that it is what I want however. It isn't a result of some opium-like educed addiction either. I have plenty of people in my world who can provide that type of stimulation. No, it's because I genuinely love my time with her. She pushes me to be a better person in both BPD and non-BPD ways. I've learned and grown so much because of her. I love the way that she makes me feel and the way that she allows me to express myself in many ways. I've never had someone in my life who is as supportive as she is either. If it weren't for those BPD-traits and the CPTSD, we'd be married by now. I just didn't know how to cope with things or communicate with her before.

Either you are changing your mind about who OW was and how she treated you or you are confused and contradictory... .you started here:


Now you say things like this:

As for this statement... .

Whatever else good or bad you say about your X, if the latest description of OW's actions is true and complete, I'm with X on this one. I wouldn't trust OW as far as I could throw her, and I would stop trying to be "friends" with her; it just doesn't go well. You might not be able to avoid ending up on rides with her, but she sounds toxic, at least for you.

You've gone back and forth about OW. Been struggling with this for months. Do you have a stable, grounded center to your feelings about her? Are you still conflicted and confused?



You don't have to be there... .as long as you are certain that a friendship with OW is incompatible with a relationship with X, and that your goal here is to save/salvage your r/s with X. You are posting on the saving board, not the deciding board, or the detaching board.

I'll do my best to support you in that direction--offering ideas on what you can do better... .and what it sounds like you can expect from X if you have some success.

Right now, I think your best bet is to wait a bit more for X, without pursuing her very actively, and stay the hell away from OW.

I can see why that looks contradictory, especially if not kept in a timeline. I though that the ow was a safe place for me to vent at the time because she could not hurt me emotionally because I was completely detached from the idea of there ever being anything between us again and therefore didn't let her in emotionally. But, she knew more about me than anyone and therefore could talk to me about things that I would have never told anyone else.

It wasn't until later that I realized that she wanted to be more than just friends and was trying to get past my emotional barriers.

I also agree with my x on that one and have terminated the friendship with the ow. That happened a few months back. I was friendly to her on the ride, but that's as far as it goes.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying that I've gone back and forth about her.  I decided long ago that romance would never happen. Yes, I thought that we could be friends, but she proved otherwise and I've removed her from my world as a result.

I completely agree with your advice about both women! Actually, I invited my x to dinner Monday night and she accepted. Plus, she is "allowing" me to on a ride that she's leading on Sunday. I say "allowing" because she's asked me in the past not to go because it made her uncomfortable.
As for this statement... .

Whatever else good or bad you say about your X, if the latest description of OW's actions is true and complete, I'm with X on this one. I wouldn't trust OW as far as I could throw her, and I would stop trying to be "friends" with her; it just doesn't go well. You might not be able to avoid ending up on rides with her, but she sounds toxic, at least for you.

You've gone back and forth about OW. Been struggling with this for months. Do you have a stable, grounded center to your feelings about her? Are you still conflicted and confused?



You don't have to be there... .as long as you are certain that a friendship with OW is incompatible with a relationship with X, and that your goal here is to save/salvage your r/s with X. You are posting on the saving board, not the deciding board, or the detaching board.

I'll do my best to support you in that direction--offering ideas on what you can do better... .and what it sounds like you can expect from X if you have some success.

Right now, I think your best bet is to wait a bit more for X, without pursuing her very actively, and stay the hell away from OW.
[/quote]

. : ). not having known your situation for long at all, i did get the following vibes . . and. . and my ideas/ suggestions were based on those vibes, so i'm pleased i picked up on that correctly. i also want to say that i think your stance on those things comes across very authentically and genuinely. i agree that your x is a challenge to you, but one that is pushing you to grow. you sound like you are in challenging, but healthy growth-territory. it sounds like you have done tons of work to be strong enough and capable enough to deal with the BPD issues well. i agree that the motorbike community issue is something you need to address re it's very tight-knittedness and the ever-present sources of re-triggering there. and, as i said yesterday, i think you should encourage your x to "brand you as hers" socially . maybe someone who was super secure in themselves and super mature wouldn't need to do that. but for where your x is currently at, i think it sounds like it would be a healthy, growing step for her to do that. good on you for clarifying your situation - i think it will allow people to give you advice/ encouragement that is in line with where you want the situation with your x to be going, which will hopefully contribute to a positive outcome. yes, love is a risk. it always is, even without BPD. so yes, loving your x may result in (some) tears further down the track. but love is a risk worth taking, if there are no abuse issues involved. it doesn't sound like there are here, because you have educated yourself about BPD and are dealing with it proactively and assertively. crossing my fingers for you and your x.

OW being safe for you comes in two different flavors.

One flavor is how vulnerable you are to her. What you seem to be saying is that you decided to keep her at a distance where you weren't vulnerable.

I agree... .mostly... .I think you were still a little vulnerable, in subtle ways you didn't realize. I also think that you were over her enough that this was waaaaaaaay less than it had been when you were engaged to her.

The other flavor of safe is whether she can be trusted to act in your interests.

If she was interested in you romantically AND trustworthy, when you went to her with problems with X, she would have told you that she's still got some hopes for you, and needs to back away while you sort things out with X... .that she can't set her own hopes aside well enough to give you that kind of support or advice. Instead she didn't tell you about her interest and nudged you toward sabotaging things with X. Grrrr... .

She blew your trust this way. Also when you were engaged with her (cheating, etc.). I don't think giving her more chances is a good idea for you. Look for better people to trust.

Thank you for the support hmmmmm!

Yes, I have had to do a great deal of growing and learning to get where I am and maintain in my situation.

I've told my x, on several different occasions, that while I understand what happened between us is extremely painful for both of us, it was necessary. I never would have learned what I have or faced my own issues. We would have continued to recycle and destroy one another.

Honestly, it was my willingness to face my own issues in order to try to work things out with her that made me start realize that I actually loved her. I could have just launched back into another relationship with the ow or someone new. But, it was important enough to me to look at why this relationship broke down and to address the issues.

This is the very thing that many nons on here ask of the pwBPD btw. They seem to believe that it's a sign of love if the pwBPD is willing to work to address the issues that damaged the relationship. I've just flipped it back onto myself after I began to recognize what I did in the relationship.

And, it was after the "addiction withdrawals" subsided that I could feel the warmth of the love that I feel for her.

Agreed. She is not good for me and that's why she's been removed from my life.

Hi Meili,

Yes have and do understand the dynamics on the one ex, and am glad you are no longer having a triangle of both. That is the only true way to make the relationship you are trying with work. We both agree and have for awhile on that. There were reasons you needed to turn to someone all that aside. Glad you are addressing and growing, healing and thriving from that. That is all that is important in the realm of things.  Just remember whether you see an agenda from  your old ex, she had one or not, she did try to be there when one was not. No sense painting a beautiful scene that was not there with the one either. Paint it now and see the good with her, and BPD have a hard time with jealousy and usually most never like or never do admit they were wrong. We both know that, but still within yourself know the truth, there was some real ugly and non love there all the rest aside.  So that as you both grow it can continue to be on both sides with the abuse not continuing. 

Wonderful about the ride, enjoy the beautiful day, concentrate on the good and hopefully all will be great for you both. Enjoy the dinner on Monday.

I know this board is also safe, and seeing the good and growing as well as progress is great with the recent ex. I do hope though you take to heart all that has been said, done and hurt from the recent as well. She has not been innocent in any of this as well. I am only pointing out, as you have always been true and honest to help me not gloss over abuse or hurt. I no matter what board you are on, support you, your relationship you want, growth and love important to you as well.I hope you can continue to find great support here in making this work. That is great.  I hope in your growth, and grace you have given to the recent x you will see that some of what has been said and done on both womens parts is unhealthy and is not just innocent or BPD on either. I still stand by the fact the one is using an excuse to be abusive to a once friend, please don't encourage that. That is the only true way to be honest within yourself.

If no drama is really wanted and some thrive on that, then maybe a ride with a new group, accepting that the other still has a right to have her friends and show up if she wants. You both can have your lives, love, relationship, possible marriage and include or not include others with no drama.  I understand none of us are perfect, and with BPD drama and hurt are extreme at times, but sometimes the man needs to reassure, love and help but not encourage the drama, or endless fights over nothing. Boundaries and respect would go far in this new journey and relationship. Again keep to the path, see love, have love and be happy.

I am very happy you have chosen as you always have, are working and seeing all the great things and you see progress with her.

I think it is important to show your love, which you have, show you have chosen again which you have. Encourage little ways to show love, reassure and validate her. that is beautiful and loving. Any activities that make her happy is great, but not anything to have to fight, drama, or female power the other. Drama leads to chaos and drama. Encourage her to grow, heal, and trust, but truly I do think counseling is needed with the downward spiral for awhile. 

Enjoy your upcoming days!

Having a selfish agenda that worked against me destroys any good that may have come from it. At the end of the day, it caused far more problems than it helped.

I don't believe that I ever paint my x with any brush other than the one that she's earned. I don't ignore or deny how she treated me when I reached out for help and support.


Agreed. It would help greatly if my x could admit her contribution in all of this. I have no delusions that will ever happen however.

My x and I had a discussion last night about her jealousy (although she won't admit that's what it is) and the effect it has on all of this. She understands that she needs to make the ow a non-issue in her world before the two of us can move forward, if that's possible to do.

Right now, I'm painted black. All that she can see is the anger that she feels for me "for what I've done to her and how I've humiliated her and destroyed her life."


Thank you. I really expected her to cancel Monday and change the plans for Sunday based on her call last night. She didn't, but that doesn't mean that she won't between now and then.


I appreciate that, but I am in no way glossing over the abuse and hurt that she has inflicted. The thing is that these days, there is no more abuse because I don't allow it to affect me as I did in the past. I don't engage like I used to, and have established boundaries. I also try to keep the conversations focused on her feelings rather than internalizing the things that she says about me. It helps greatly to remember that she's insecure and afraid.


I'm not sure who you think the "friend" is here. The ow only pretended to be a friend so that she could further her own agenda. That is not something that a friend would do.


I ride with several groups actually. Sometimes things crisscross though, and there are some non-group, just community, events that happen.


To be fair, this applies equally to males and females. Both need to work to reassure, love, and help but not encourage drama. I do agree that boundaries and respect need to be in play for that to happen.


I agree! I would love it if she'd get into counseling. We actually talked about it yesterday. Well, we talked about couple's counseling.  It came down to her needing to feel the desire to go or enough love to try. At the moment, all that she feels is anger and because of that, she doesn't know if she has any desire to try with me. Neither she nor I know if she'll ever let go of the anger. Yesterday, she told me that she's holding onto it so that she doesn't feel vulnerable to me again. That she's so afraid that something like the bike ride will happen again and the ow will be re-entered into the picture that she does not want to open herself up to me.

The ride tomorrow shouldn't be any big deal. There will be enough people there that my interactions with my x will be somewhat limited. Dinner Monday should be interesting though.

Geez, I feel somewhat stupid right now... .

It just hit me that the motorcycle ride three weeks ago and my becoming friends with her friends were all just triggers that made her feel unsafe again.

I know that I knew that on some level, but the severity of it just hit me.  She had started to feel safe with me again, and then my going on the ride that the ow was on made her feel that she can never be safe with me. That's what she's been trying to tell me when she says that "we are at less than zero now." Before it was a question as to whether she could ever feel safe with me, now she believes that she never can.

Gotta love these  :thought: :light: :thought: :light: moments!

Well, yesterday was interesting…
 
The ow is purposefully trying to (and succeeding) at causing problems between my x and me. 
 
My x wants me to “fix the problem that I created.” Of course, that’s impossible. I can’t force another person to stay away from public places or events.
 
But, it was nice spending time with my x yesterday despite everything that is going on. We were around others, so she was on her best behavior. 
 
She cancelled our dinner date tonight because she's angry about everything with the ow, and told me that it saddens her that there is now a gap between us where she used to feel so much closeness. The gap has been created because she questions my honesty, honor, integrity and trustworthiness and consistency in those things.

I can see why she feels that way. It's really sad to know that because she's split me black, no matter what I do, she won't feel those things from me. That's the nature of the beast though.

The part that is really troubling for me is that I am not even part of the problem at this point. It's the ow playing on the insecurities of my x.

You could turn that on its head, you know. It is a bit of a relief that you are doing the right thing, and have nothing better to do   

Sadly, x may be too insecure to see past ow's games and trust you. That's not something you can fix. You can wait it out, at least for a while... .but do consider this:

You are worth being in a relationship with somebody who will trust you... .and that you can trust. (Even if that isn't x or ow)

Wait, what? Turn that on it's head? What do you mean?


I'm not too upset about the trust problem here. I know that I did things that destroyed the small amount of trust, such that it was, that might have existed. If she can rebuild that trust, that's great. If not... .well, we both agree that neither of wants that relationship.

Turn this on its head:

Accept that you aren't part of the problem, aren't causing problems.

Turn your belief about it on its head--that is good--it reflects well on you. Rather than being troubling because you can't fix it.

Oh, yeah, I've known for a long time that I'm not the cause of the problem.

Today's issue is yet another woman. She found out that I have talked to a friend that I've had for almost 20 years now. It's just "more of the same" to my x.

The only similarities between the ow and the friend are that they are both triggers for my x.

Oh well, if my having friends pushes her away, so be it. That problem is hers to own, not mine.

I assume this 20 year friend is female. Did you ever have a relationship with her or even have sexual tension/flirting with her over the years?

I know ow has been a trigger for x for a while. Is this friend newly a trigger?

Can you give us the full dialog with x about this other friend? Perhaps something you said or how you said it was invalidating or triggering in an avoidable way... .but there isn't enough to work with in what you said here.

Yes, the friend is a female. No, we've never had any sort of flirty/physical/romantic relationship.

I could provide the full dialogue, but we have a limit about characters here and the emails span hours. I'm sure that some of it was invalidating, but mainly because I was enforcing a boundary about my x dictating who I can and cannot be friends with. At that point, it became a discussion about what my x considers "an intimate relationship."

The basis is that almost two years ago when my x and I first got together, the friend sent me a text message at 7:30 one Sat. morning and my x thought that the relationship was inappropriate because the friend and I were obviously intimate enough with one another that the friend believed it was acceptable to text me when she "knew I was in bad with my gf." To this day, I've yet to figure out how the friend was supposed to "know" that.

Anyway, here's the main part of the discussion:

Me: How's your morning been going?
Her: So far, not bad, trying to get a lot done today.
What about yours?
Me: My day has been quiet so far, which is good I guess. Normal series of silliness at the office…...
Other than that, the only real news is that [my friend] thinks that she's pregnant again.
Her: I thought you weren't talking to her, the last I heard.  I guess you are again.

Me: I stopped talking to her when you and I were together. I started talking to her again over summer.

Her: Oh, this summer you told me that you'd given her up.
But, whatever... .drop in the bucket by comparison.

Me: I guess that depends on at what point during the summer. Not sure what you mean by the "drop in the bucket" comment. I may be misreading things, but it sounds like you think that I did something wrong?

Her: Nope, just inconsistent.  You act like you made this big concession, but then it only lasts a short time.

Just how it always is.  A drop in the bucket compared to all of the other crap.
There's no right or wrong, just what you see and what I see.

Me: I guess that makes sense.

Her: Oh well.

Me: I'm confused. You view it as inconsistent, I can understand why you do. It's just one of those things that we view differently.

What it feels like to me is that you are looking at my actions right now and trying to judge how I would act if we were together. I don't think that's fair because different types of relationships play by different rules.

Her: Right. no problem.

Her: I WILL NOT ARGUE WITH YOU ABOUT THIS.  Do whatever makes you happy and whatever you feel good about.

Me: Thank you for not arguing with me about this.

Her: YW. Have a great day.

Me: You too.

Her: Thanks

Me: YW

Her: I am sorry that the intimacy you shared with her was a problem when we are together. So, hearing that you are there again is simply a reminder of the past and a predictor of the future should there be one.

With that being said, do whatever you please, if that includes [the ow], knock yourself out.
I would appreciate being given my space though. 

Me: I'm happy to give you whatever space you ask for.

I've known [the friend] for almost 20 years now, and I'm not sure what intimacy you are talking about.

Her: The kind that allows her to ask to be "[my daughter’s] stepmom" and to text you at 7 in the morning on a weekend when she knows that we are together.

But, again, do as you see fit.

I'm asking that you not be present on every ride that I make with my friends.

Me: I can see that you're still clearly bothered by that text message. Can you tell me why?

Her: So, a guy texting me while we were in bed would've been ok with you?  A guy that expressed interest in being with me... .

But, no, I am no longer bothered by it or anything else.

Me: I'm not going to answer that. Those questions only lead to fights. I know your feelings on matter, and I'm not going to argue with you about them. You are completely justified in feeling as you have about it.

I stopped talking to her when we were together because I respected those feelings.

Her: Besides that no matter what you would say, I know the answer.

I'm glad you have her now.

I'm afraid that the pooch looks screwed, and it is gonna be hard to un-screw it with x. Not impossible, but hard.

Here what I see given that dialog and your history:
1. You had an inappropriate friendship with ow while you were with x, not realizing what you were doing and had lots of battles with x over your r/s with ow, and you betrayed x's trust in there.
2. You had similar battles over [friend] despite not doing anything inappropriate with her.
3. You "gave in" on it and promised to cut contact in both cases. (And broke this promise in regard to ow, at least)
4. You resumed contact after breaking up... .but wanted to resume the r/s with x, and did so, without re-cutting contact until you were either busted or ended up on the same group ride with ow, or even your dad did when you weren't.

To really clear the air with x, you need to communicate several things, and it would be difficult even if she didn't have BPD. I think you've done some of them, but not all. Here's my take:

1. You got lured into an inappropriate r/s with ow. You were confused, and blew it badly, and multiple times, in multiple ways. You've figured out that she's a hot mess, and you will stay clear now, and you apologize for the harm done, and how you violated x's trust here. [Yeah, we beat this one into a pulp here!]
1A. You're still trying to figure out how to deal with crap like group motorcycle rides she might show up for. 

2. While you were confused, you agreed to cut [friend] out of your life to appease x. That was a mistake, as you have never had any kind of r/s with her, and haven't done anything inappropriate. You promised her something you never should have promised. An apology for the confusion and backtracking here is appropriate too.

3. You aren't willing to cut important friends out of your life for x, when there is nothing inappropriate going on. You also know that you blew this one big time, and probably still have a bit to learn about how to do it right. Offer to provide extra accommodations to rebuild trust short of cutting contact. Offering x the chance to see your conversations with [friend] or something.

4. Acknowledge that you were playing both sides of the fence in this conversation.
You agreed to cut contact with [friend] when you were in a r/s with x last.
You want to be in a r/s with x again.
Apparently, since you are not YET in a r/s with x, you don't need to cut contact yet?

Uhm, really? Since you aren't yet in a r/s with x again, you could have another girlfriend now while you are trying to get back together with her by the same logic!

For YOU, [friend] and ow are very different relationships, and the right thing for you to do is different.

Unfortunately, you've been really confused about this, and haven't been either consistent or truthful in any of this! That makes it a lot harder for x to trust you at all.

X seems to have similar fears/concerns with both [friend] and ow.

Anyhow... .given the mess I described, If I was in x's shoes, I'd be pissed at you too, and the reassurance that you only talked to [friend] when you were broken up with x wouldn't help me at all, so this conversation was hosed because of what you said, not how you said it starting here... .

BTW, are there more female friends that either do or might trigger x?

Geez, almost all of my friends are female!

I am not sure that I've ever actually lied to my x about any of it. I will admit to lies of omission where the ow is concerned.

No, there were no similar battles over my friend. I never responded to the 7:30 text message and I just stopped talking to her for over a year while my x and I were together.

I have done #1, communicated #1A, never agreed to cut the friend out, just did it (#2), #3 I've offered, the x refused stating that "I know how to delete things that I might not want you to see,"

I have a real issue with #4. I could, in fact, have another girl friend if I wanted. My x reminds me all of the time that there is no commitment between us. In fact, she's forever going out with other men. All of the things that she used to define "intimate" are things that have occurred with these other men. I can't feel too guilty.

That being said, I'm allowed to have friends and so is she. As long as what is happening is not inappropriate. The real problem lies in my x expecting me to do all of the things that a person in a committed relationship would do without the commitment and it not being reciprocal.

But, that really isn't the point. The point is that she feels that I've done something inappropriate while trying to reconcile.

It isn't just the friend or the ow. Any woman that I talk to is perceived as a threat. Even if I have friendships, true friendships, with males that's a threat. This board is a threat!

Yes, you could have another girlfriend right now, being broken up.

A while ago you said that you did hope to reconcile, and were trying to win her back, even though you thought odds are against it.

I think it is pretty obvious that if you DID have another girlfriend, x wouldn't be reconciling with you! And it doesn't really matter whether she's going out with other guys right now or not--Given BPD, she's likely to have a bit of  a double standard going, and that's the way it works.


Yes, and how I read your conversation with her, you weren't saying that you stood by your choice to have (female, platonic) friends.

What I read was you saying that it wasn't inappropriate because you did it while not in a r/s with her.

The way you said it in this conversation, it would seem reasonable for her to expect you to cut contact with [friend] if you reconciled.

While it is technically OK for both of you to date now, if you reconciled, it is a very reasonable expectation for it to stop!


And do you really want to reconcile with somebody who believes this?

This is true.


And, in some cases, it might be reasonable. That is something that would have to be determined at the time.


Most definitely!


She wasn't always this way, and to some extent has every right to believe this right now where other females are concerned. As for the board and male friends, she's been dysregulated since I left her back in April. One thing or another has kept her emotionally aroused. In order for us to reconcile, it will take her emotional arousal to make its way back to neutral (her stated position, not a limitation that I put in place). At that point, I don't believe that the latter two will be an issue.

hey meili  : ). i think you're on the right track and i like grey kitty's advice re kinda apologising for all past muddles and sitting down together and stipulating the rules for this stuff in your (potential) relationship. really start with a blank slate and work from there. 1. friendships are okay, both male and female. 2. if a certain friendship seems fishy, it needs to be sorted out. if it is not fishy, then it must be allowed to continue unhampered. if it is fishy, it should be terminated. 3. any past friendships that have already proven themselves to be fishy (ow) are most certainly terminated and will continue to be so. also aplogise for any past muddles b/w you, with friendships that turned out to be inappropriate (ow) and with friendships that were on/ off due to x's insecurities, hence creating a muddled situation. promise her you were doing your best in the past, but can understand why things got confusing. agree to start a wholly new era with her and ask her to measure your behaviour in this new era - not base it on the past when both of you contributed to a muddled dynamic. gently ask her if these rules are to apply to you, whether she could apply these same rules to herself too, please, re her male friendships? explain that that would get the overall level of muddling down and increase the overall level of trust. trust is a really hard thing to fix when broken. it's like dropping a china plate - it's done in a second and takes painstaking hours and hour and hours to reassemble. HOWEVER - that being said - have you heard of that Japanese thing where when something beautiful (like trust) (or a vase!) breaks, they repair/ glue/ kit the break with a seam of gold? it's a way of valuing the break and the repair, instead of seeing it as something negative and something to be hidden. i think it's called "kintsugi" and i loove it. pour pure gold in them breaks, lad!    : ).

THANKS hmmmm!

My x has actually been pretty calm over the past 24 hours. We've spent a lot of time talking about how I see things and why (the role that my FOO played in all of it) I do some of the things that I do without realizing the effects that they will have.

I have always apologized (numerous) times when these things come up.

I would love to be able to start from a blank slate with her. I've tried that approach. It's not something that she can do right now.

I LOVE the comment about pouring gold into the cracks! That's what I'm trying to do when I'm not messing things up by not fully understanding the consequences of my actions.

hmmm, I like nearly everything you wrote here. (And not just 'cuz you are agreeing with me  lol )


Not this, though. Meili, don't bring this up--in the same conversation--or before you and x seem to be truly on a road to reconciliation.

It goes back to the double standard for BPD-ish relationships... .if you want to get her back, don't do anything you wouldn't do in a faithful r/s with her while you wait, but don't demand (or even discuss) the same of her until after you reconcile.

Besides... .the apology/discussion with her regarding [friend] will be hard enough without adding that!

. kay : ). i shall defer to your wisdom re this! you have heeeaps more BPD experience than me, so are probly right!

Right, I have purposefully avoided that part of things.

last night, when reading this, i smiled and thought wow, meili and grey kitty are like wizend buddhist monks and have the patience of saints    : )

(i'm starting to learn BPD patience, but still have a bit of a "shape up or ship out stance", haha... .*sigh*)    : P

anyway... .

i *think* in terms of trying to create a "blank slate" situation, which i *think* you should keep aiming for, it could be good to discuss how these rules apply to both people equally

*because*... .your x needs to *feel* that your non-fishy friendships are EXACTLY like her non-fishy friendships.

i think to cut through the jealousy-paranoia loops, that is a very important step

so yeah, i get there's a double standard thing with BPD

but my gut instinct re repairing trust is to aim for a blank slate with very basic, safe rules *that apply to everybody equally*

as i said, if this was mentioned, i would do it very gently

my gut instinct is that with trust that's been damaged, gentle, fair, equal rules for everyone would be the way to go and would make most sense on an inner kid level


but i swear i do not have you guys' buddhist wisdom or patience!   so definitely feel free to ignore! 

Nothing to ignore here hmmmm!

OK, here's the thing, as long as my x is dysregulated, nothing that seems logical and sensible to you will work.

I agree, mutual "rules" and "limits" are healthy and how things should work. That isn't what is at play here though. Your logic makes sense to you, my logic makes sense to me, my x's logic makes sense to her, GK's logic makes sense... .and so one. To each of us, our logic makes sense. That does not mean that it makes sense to another person however.

So, in a healthy healthier relationship, the rules that you state would apply. They can be mutually agreed upon by the parties. In a disordered relationship, that isn't necessarily the case.

At the moment, I am just trying to bring things back to a neutral position.

Think of it like dealing with someone who is drunk and you are trying to get that person not to drive. In that person's mind, he/she is perfectly capable of driving.  The intoxicated stated prevents him/her from understanding the gravity of the situation.

Without reaching a state of neutrality, the non has as little of a chance of reaching a healthy healthier agreement as the sober person does with the drunk who is ready to drive.

hehe, kay, even i am buddhist and patient enough to realise that *during dysregulation* it's not a good idea to mention that stuff : )

if/ when this dysregulation phase has calmed down, i think it *can* be useful to do a same-basic-and-fair-rules-for-everyone thing, as it can help to restore trust to *not* have different standards for everyone (even if "different standards" is a typical thing for BPD)

anyway - keep up the good work, meili!  


p.s. i totally understand that "this board" is a threat to your x

my partner would               if he knew i was posting here

*sigh*

(in fact, given that he's a pretty bright cookie, and i told him i think he had BPD and that he knows i think that *good* forums are a good place for good advice... .it wouldn't surprise me if he googled "BPD" and "forum" and read my posts here... .)

*sigh*

(only thing i've got working in my favour are denial and lack of self-awarenes, hahahahaha)

does your x ever read here, meili?

is she embarrassed to know you post about her?

(it would be ironic for me, if this forum a) helped save our relationship by teaching me BPD tools and skills and then b) ended our relationship for absolutely EVER when my partner comes across my posts one day - cos he h.a.t.e.s. forums and would view my posting here as a massive, massive violation of trust)   

*sigh*

Well, I think that most pwBPD would flip out if they knew that their lives were being discussed here and that their mask has been removed.

I don't know if my x knows I post her or not. I've told her that I post on a BPD forum, but I think that she ignored my saying it.

There have been several times that I've wondered if someone was my x posting here. I think that a lot of us do that though because of the similarities in our situations. There was even a thread about that once.

I have mixed feelings about the "relationship rules" thing. I think that we each have to establish our own boundaries based on our own core values. If those values don't match with our partner's, then there are bigger problems in the relationship.

*mod*

This thread has reached its posting limit.  Please feel free to continue the conversation in a new thread.