Further Progress?

[Meili]

Thank you all for the responses. I think that I need to clear a few things ups.

The ow is not an innocent in any of this. The reason that I ended that relationship in the beginning was because of repetitive cheating and disrespect. Also, I didn't realize until later (and I think that I wrote about this the other day), she tried to interfere with things between my x and I.

She hasn't ever treated me with much love or respect. She's tried to buy me for years now. When I split from my x, the ow bought me a motorcycle because she wanted me to "not have to ride a bike that matched my x's so that I wouldn't have to think of her every time I ride." She also tried to get me to quit my job and live in one of her rental houses. Essentially, if I had followed her wishes, I'd be controlled by her completely from a financial aspect.

Each time I told her to back off, she did for a few days and then would go right back to trying to control every aspect of my life. Even though we weren't a couple, and I've told her repeatedly that we never would be again, she even "demanded" that I not see other women if things didn't work out with my x.

As for my family, my removing them from my life had nothing to do with my x. When I did that, I wasn't even talking to my x. My FOO has always been abusive to me and it showed no signs of stopping, so I walked away from them for my own healing.

Is trying to reconcile with my x the best idea in the world? I don't know. I cannot predict the future. I do know that it is what I want however. It isn't a result of some opium-like educed addiction either. I have plenty of people in my world who can provide that type of stimulation. No, it's because I genuinely love my time with her. She pushes me to be a better person in both BPD and non-BPD ways. I've learned and grown so much because of her. I love the way that she makes me feel and the way that she allows me to express myself in many ways. I've never had someone in my life who is as supportive as she is either. If it weren't for those BPD-traits and the CPTSD, we'd be married by now. I just didn't know how to cope with things or communicate with her before.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

Either you are changing your mind about who OW was and how she treated you or you are confused and contradictory... .you started here:

The ow was a safe place for me to vent because she was involved and planning her future with her new guy.
[... .]
I knew that I needed someone safe to talk to about everything. The ow was very supportive of my efforts to make the r/s with my x work because she knew that I was mostly happy with her.

Now you say things like this:

The ow is not an innocent in any of this. The reason that I ended that relationship in the beginning was because of repetitive cheating and disrespect. Also, I didn't realize until later (and I think that I wrote about this the other day), she tried to interfere with things between my x and I.

She hasn't ever treated me with much love or respect. She's tried to buy me for years now. When I split from my x, the ow bought me a motorcycle because she wanted me to "not have to ride a bike that matched my x's so that I wouldn't have to think of her every time I ride." She also tried to get me to quit my job and live in one of her rental houses. Essentially, if I had followed her wishes, I'd be controlled by her completely from a financial aspect.

As for this statement... .

Now, my x doesn't trust that the ow will not be re-involved in our r/s.

Whatever else good or bad you say about your X, if the latest description of OW's actions is true and complete, I'm with X on this one. I wouldn't trust OW as far as I could throw her, and I would stop trying to be "friends" with her; it just doesn't go well. You might not be able to avoid ending up on rides with her, but she sounds toxic, at least for you.

You've gone back and forth about OW. Been struggling with this for months. Do you have a stable, grounded center to your feelings about her? Are you still conflicted and confused?



You don't have to be there... .as long as you are certain that a friendship with OW is incompatible with a relationship with X, and that your goal here is to save/salvage your r/s with X. You are posting on the saving board, not the deciding board, or the detaching board.

I'll do my best to support you in that direction--offering ideas on what you can do better... .and what it sounds like you can expect from X if you have some success.

Right now, I think your best bet is to wait a bit more for X, without pursuing her very actively, and stay the hell away from OW.

[Meili]

Either you are changing your mind about who OW was and how she treated you or you are confused and contradictory... .

I can see why that looks contradictory, especially if not kept in a timeline. I though that the ow was a safe place for me to vent at the time because she could not hurt me emotionally because I was completely detached from the idea of there ever being anything between us again and therefore didn't let her in emotionally. But, she knew more about me than anyone and therefore could talk to me about things that I would have never told anyone else.

It wasn't until later that I realized that she wanted to be more than just friends and was trying to get past my emotional barriers.

I also agree with my x on that one and have terminated the friendship with the ow. That happened a few months back. I was friendly to her on the ride, but that's as far as it goes.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying that I've gone back and forth about her.  I decided long ago that romance would never happen. Yes, I thought that we could be friends, but she proved otherwise and I've removed her from my world as a result.

I completely agree with your advice about both women! Actually, I invited my x to dinner Monday night and she accepted. Plus, she is "allowing" me to on a ride that she's leading on Sunday. I say "allowing" because she's asked me in the past not to go because it made her uncomfortable.
As for this statement... .

Now, my x doesn't trust that the ow will not be re-involved in our r/s.

Whatever else good or bad you say about your X, if the latest description of OW's actions is true and complete, I'm with X on this one. I wouldn't trust OW as far as I could throw her, and I would stop trying to be "friends" with her; it just doesn't go well. You might not be able to avoid ending up on rides with her, but she sounds toxic, at least for you.

You've gone back and forth about OW. Been struggling with this for months. Do you have a stable, grounded center to your feelings about her? Are you still conflicted and confused?



You don't have to be there... .as long as you are certain that a friendship with OW is incompatible with a relationship with X, and that your goal here is to save/salvage your r/s with X. You are posting on the saving board, not the deciding board, or the detaching board.

I'll do my best to support you in that direction--offering ideas on what you can do better... .and what it sounds like you can expect from X if you have some success.

Right now, I think your best bet is to wait a bit more for X, without pursuing her very actively, and stay the hell away from OW.
[/quote]

[icky]

. : ). not having known your situation for long at all, i did get the following vibes .

. The ow is not an innocent in any of this. .

. and.

. Is trying to reconcile with my x the best idea in the world? I don't know. I cannot predict the future. I do know that it is what I want however. It isn't a result of some opium-like educed addiction either. I have plenty of people in my world who can provide that type of stimulation. No, it's because I genuinely love my time with her. She pushes me to be a better person in both BPD and non-BPD ways. I've learned and grown so much because of her. .

. and my ideas/ suggestions were based on those vibes, so i'm pleased i picked up on that correctly. i also want to say that i think your stance on those things comes across very authentically and genuinely. i agree that your x is a challenge to you, but one that is pushing you to grow. you sound like you are in challenging, but healthy growth-territory. it sounds like you have done tons of work to be strong enough and capable enough to deal with the BPD issues well. i agree that the motorbike community issue is something you need to address re it's very tight-knittedness and the ever-present sources of re-triggering there. and, as i said yesterday, i think you should encourage your x to "brand you as hers" socially . maybe someone who was super secure in themselves and super mature wouldn't need to do that. but for where your x is currently at, i think it sounds like it would be a healthy, growing step for her to do that. good on you for clarifying your situation - i think it will allow people to give you advice/ encouragement that is in line with where you want the situation with your x to be going, which will hopefully contribute to a positive outcome. yes, love is a risk. it always is, even without BPD. so yes, loving your x may result in (some) tears further down the track. but love is a risk worth taking, if there are no abuse issues involved. it doesn't sound like there are here, because you have educated yourself about BPD and are dealing with it proactively and assertively. crossing my fingers for you and your x.

[Grey Kitty]

I though that the ow was a safe place for me to vent at the time because she could not hurt me emotionally because I was completely detached from the idea of there ever being anything between us again and therefore didn't let her in emotionally. But, she knew more about me than anyone and therefore could talk to me about things that I would have never told anyone else.

It wasn't until later that I realized that she wanted to be more than just friends and was trying to get past my emotional barriers.

OW being safe for you comes in two different flavors.

One flavor is how vulnerable you are to her. What you seem to be saying is that you decided to keep her at a distance where you weren't vulnerable.

I agree... .mostly... .I think you were still a little vulnerable, in subtle ways you didn't realize. I also think that you were over her enough that this was waaaaaaaay less than it had been when you were engaged to her.

The other flavor of safe is whether she can be trusted to act in your interests.

If she was interested in you romantically AND trustworthy, when you went to her with problems with X, she would have told you that she's still got some hopes for you, and needs to back away while you sort things out with X... .that she can't set her own hopes aside well enough to give you that kind of support or advice. Instead she didn't tell you about her interest and nudged you toward sabotaging things with X. Grrrr... .

She blew your trust this way. Also when you were engaged with her (cheating, etc.). I don't think giving her more chances is a good idea for you. Look for better people to trust.

[Meili]

Thank you for the support hmmmmm!

Yes, I have had to do a great deal of growing and learning to get where I am and maintain in my situation.

I've told my x, on several different occasions, that while I understand what happened between us is extremely painful for both of us, it was necessary. I never would have learned what I have or faced my own issues. We would have continued to recycle and destroy one another.

Honestly, it was my willingness to face my own issues in order to try to work things out with her that made me start realize that I actually loved her. I could have just launched back into another relationship with the ow or someone new. But, it was important enough to me to look at why this relationship broke down and to address the issues.

This is the very thing that many nons on here ask of the pwBPD btw. They seem to believe that it's a sign of love if the pwBPD is willing to work to address the issues that damaged the relationship. I've just flipped it back onto myself after I began to recognize what I did in the relationship.

And, it was after the "addiction withdrawals" subsided that I could feel the warmth of the love that I feel for her.

[Meili]

She blew your trust this way. Also when you were engaged with her (cheating, etc.). I don't think giving her more chances is a good idea for you. Look for better people to trust.

Agreed. She is not good for me and that's why she's been removed from my life.

[Lilyroze]

Hi Meili,

Yes have and do understand the dynamics on the one ex, and am glad you are no longer having a triangle of both. That is the only true way to make the relationship you are trying with work. We both agree and have for awhile on that. There were reasons you needed to turn to someone all that aside. Glad you are addressing and growing, healing and thriving from that. That is all that is important in the realm of things.  Just remember whether you see an agenda from  your old ex, she had one or not, she did try to be there when one was not. No sense painting a beautiful scene that was not there with the one either. Paint it now and see the good with her, and BPD have a hard time with jealousy and usually most never like or never do admit they were wrong. We both know that, but still within yourself know the truth, there was some real ugly and non love there all the rest aside.  So that as you both grow it can continue to be on both sides with the abuse not continuing. 

Wonderful about the ride, enjoy the beautiful day, concentrate on the good and hopefully all will be great for you both. Enjoy the dinner on Monday.

I know this board is also safe, and seeing the good and growing as well as progress is great with the recent ex. I do hope though you take to heart all that has been said, done and hurt from the recent as well. She has not been innocent in any of this as well. I am only pointing out, as you have always been true and honest to help me not gloss over abuse or hurt. I no matter what board you are on, support you, your relationship you want, growth and love important to you as well.I hope you can continue to find great support here in making this work. That is great.  I hope in your growth, and grace you have given to the recent x you will see that some of what has been said and done on both womens parts is unhealthy and is not just innocent or BPD on either. I still stand by the fact the one is using an excuse to be abusive to a once friend, please don't encourage that. That is the only true way to be honest within yourself.

If no drama is really wanted and some thrive on that, then maybe a ride with a new group, accepting that the other still has a right to have her friends and show up if she wants. You both can have your lives, love, relationship, possible marriage and include or not include others with no drama.  I understand none of us are perfect, and with BPD drama and hurt are extreme at times, but sometimes the man needs to reassure, love and help but not encourage the drama, or endless fights over nothing. Boundaries and respect would go far in this new journey and relationship. Again keep to the path, see love, have love and be happy.

I am very happy you have chosen as you always have, are working and seeing all the great things and you see progress with her.

I think it is important to show your love, which you have, show you have chosen again which you have. Encourage little ways to show love, reassure and validate her. that is beautiful and loving. Any activities that make her happy is great, but not anything to have to fight, drama, or female power the other. Drama leads to chaos and drama. Encourage her to grow, heal, and trust, but truly I do think counseling is needed with the downward spiral for awhile. 

Enjoy your upcoming days!

[Meili]

Just remember whether you see an agenda from  your old ex, she had one or not, she did try to be there when one was not. No sense painting a beautiful scene that was not there with the one either.

Having a selfish agenda that worked against me destroys any good that may have come from it. At the end of the day, it caused far more problems than it helped.

I don't believe that I ever paint my x with any brush other than the one that she's earned. I don't ignore or deny how she treated me when I reached out for help and support.

Paint it now and see the good with her, and BPD have a hard time with jealousy and usually most never like or never do admit they were wrong. We both know that, but still within yourself know the truth, there was some real ugly and non love there all the rest aside.  So that as you both grow it can continue to be on both sides with the abuse not continuing. 

Agreed. It would help greatly if my x could admit her contribution in all of this. I have no delusions that will ever happen however.

My x and I had a discussion last night about her jealousy (although she won't admit that's what it is) and the effect it has on all of this. She understands that she needs to make the ow a non-issue in her world before the two of us can move forward, if that's possible to do.

Right now, I'm painted black. All that she can see is the anger that she feels for me "for what I've done to her and how I've humiliated her and destroyed her life."

Wonderful about the ride, enjoy the beautiful day, concentrate on the good and hopefully all will be great for you both. Enjoy the dinner on Monday.

Thank you. I really expected her to cancel Monday and change the plans for Sunday based on her call last night. She didn't, but that doesn't mean that she won't between now and then.

I know this board is also safe, and seeing the good and growing as well as progress is great with the recent ex. I do hope though you take to heart all that has been said, done and hurt from the recent as well. She has not been innocent in any of this as well. I am only pointing out, as you have always been true and honest to help me not gloss over abuse or hurt.

I appreciate that, but I am in no way glossing over the abuse and hurt that she has inflicted. The thing is that these days, there is no more abuse because I don't allow it to affect me as I did in the past. I don't engage like I used to, and have established boundaries. I also try to keep the conversations focused on her feelings rather than internalizing the things that she says about me. It helps greatly to remember that she's insecure and afraid.

I still stand by the fact the one is using an excuse to be abusive to a once friend, please don't encourage that. That is the only true way to be honest within yourself.

I'm not sure who you think the "friend" is here. The ow only pretended to be a friend so that she could further her own agenda. That is not something that a friend would do.

If no drama is really wanted and some thrive on that, then maybe a ride with a new group, accepting that the other still has a right to have her friends and show up if she wants. You both can have your lives, love, relationship, possible marriage and include or not include others with no drama.

I ride with several groups actually. Sometimes things crisscross though, and there are some non-group, just community, events that happen.

I understand none of us are perfect, and with BPD drama and hurt are extreme at times, but sometimes the man needs to reassure, love and help but not encourage the drama, or endless fights over nothing. Boundaries and respect would go far in this new journey and relationship.

To be fair, this applies equally to males and females. Both need to work to reassure, love, and help but not encourage drama. I do agree that boundaries and respect need to be in play for that to happen.

I think it is important to show your love, which you have, show you have chosen again which you have. Encourage little ways to show love, reassure and validate her. that is beautiful and loving. Any activities that make her happy is great, but not anything to have to fight, drama, or female power the other. Drama leads to chaos and drama. Encourage her to grow, heal, and trust, but truly I do think counseling is needed with the downward spiral for awhile. 

I agree! I would love it if she'd get into counseling. We actually talked about it yesterday. Well, we talked about couple's counseling.  It came down to her needing to feel the desire to go or enough love to try. At the moment, all that she feels is anger and because of that, she doesn't know if she has any desire to try with me. Neither she nor I know if she'll ever let go of the anger. Yesterday, she told me that she's holding onto it so that she doesn't feel vulnerable to me again. That she's so afraid that something like the bike ride will happen again and the ow will be re-entered into the picture that she does not want to open herself up to me.

The ride tomorrow shouldn't be any big deal. There will be enough people there that my interactions with my x will be somewhat limited. Dinner Monday should be interesting though.

[Meili]

Geez, I feel somewhat stupid right now... .

It just hit me that the motorcycle ride three weeks ago and my becoming friends with her friends were all just triggers that made her feel unsafe again.

I know that I knew that on some level, but the severity of it just hit me.  She had started to feel safe with me again, and then my going on the ride that the ow was on made her feel that she can never be safe with me. That's what she's been trying to tell me when she says that "we are at less than zero now." Before it was a question as to whether she could ever feel safe with me, now she believes that she never can.

Gotta love these  moments!

[Meili]

Well, yesterday was interesting…
 
The ow is purposefully trying to (and succeeding) at causing problems between my x and me. 
 
My x wants me to “fix the problem that I created.” Of course, that’s impossible. I can’t force another person to stay away from public places or events.
 
But, it was nice spending time with my x yesterday despite everything that is going on. We were around others, so she was on her best behavior. 
 
She cancelled our dinner date tonight because she's angry about everything with the ow, and told me that it saddens her that there is now a gap between us where she used to feel so much closeness. The gap has been created because she questions my honesty, honor, integrity and trustworthiness and consistency in those things.

I can see why she feels that way. It's really sad to know that because she's split me black, no matter what I do, she won't feel those things from me. That's the nature of the beast though.

The part that is really troubling for me is that I am not even part of the problem at this point. It's the ow playing on the insecurities of my x.

[Grey Kitty]

You could turn that on its head, you know. It is a bit of a relief that you are doing the right thing, and have nothing better to do   

Sadly, x may be too insecure to see past ow's games and trust you. That's not something you can fix. You can wait it out, at least for a while... .but do consider this:

You are worth being in a relationship with somebody who will trust you... .and that you can trust. (Even if that isn't x or ow)

[Meili]

You could turn that on its head, you know. It is a bit of a relief that you are doing the right thing, and have nothing better to do   

Wait, what? Turn that on it's head? What do you mean?

Sadly, x may be too insecure to see past ow's games and trust you. That's not something you can fix. You can wait it out, at least for a while... .but do consider this:

You are worth being in a relationship with somebody who will trust you... .and that you can trust. (Even if that isn't x or ow)

I'm not too upset about the trust problem here. I know that I did things that destroyed the small amount of trust, such that it was, that might have existed. If she can rebuild that trust, that's great. If not... .well, we both agree that neither of wants that relationship.

[Grey Kitty]

Turn this on its head:

The part that is really troubling for me is that I am not even part of the problem at this point. It's the ow playing on the insecurities of my x.

Accept that you aren't part of the problem, aren't causing problems.

Turn your belief about it on its head--that is good--it reflects well on you. Rather than being troubling because you can't fix it.

[Meili]

Oh, yeah, I've known for a long time that I'm not the cause of the problem.

Today's issue is yet another woman. She found out that I have talked to a friend that I've had for almost 20 years now. It's just "more of the same" to my x.

The only similarities between the ow and the friend are that they are both triggers for my x.

Oh well, if my having friends pushes her away, so be it. That problem is hers to own, not mine.

[Grey Kitty]

I assume this 20 year friend is female. Did you ever have a relationship with her or even have sexual tension/flirting with her over the years?

I know ow has been a trigger for x for a while. Is this friend newly a trigger?

Can you give us the full dialog with x about this other friend? Perhaps something you said or how you said it was invalidating or triggering in an avoidable way... .but there isn't enough to work with in what you said here.

[Meili]

Yes, the friend is a female. No, we've never had any sort of flirty/physical/romantic relationship.

I could provide the full dialogue, but we have a limit about characters here and the emails span hours. I'm sure that some of it was invalidating, but mainly because I was enforcing a boundary about my x dictating who I can and cannot be friends with. At that point, it became a discussion about what my x considers "an intimate relationship."

The basis is that almost two years ago when my x and I first got together, the friend sent me a text message at 7:30 one Sat. morning and my x thought that the relationship was inappropriate because the friend and I were obviously intimate enough with one another that the friend believed it was acceptable to text me when she "knew I was in bad with my gf." To this day, I've yet to figure out how the friend was supposed to "know" that.

Anyway, here's the main part of the discussion:

Me: How's your morning been going?
Her: So far, not bad, trying to get a lot done today.
What about yours?
Me: My day has been quiet so far, which is good I guess. Normal series of silliness at the office…...
Other than that, the only real news is that [my friend] thinks that she's pregnant again.
Her: I thought you weren't talking to her, the last I heard.  I guess you are again.

Me: I stopped talking to her when you and I were together. I started talking to her again over summer.

Her: Oh, this summer you told me that you'd given her up.
But, whatever... .drop in the bucket by comparison.

Me: I guess that depends on at what point during the summer. Not sure what you mean by the "drop in the bucket" comment. I may be misreading things, but it sounds like you think that I did something wrong?

Her: Nope, just inconsistent.  You act like you made this big concession, but then it only lasts a short time.

Just how it always is.  A drop in the bucket compared to all of the other crap.
There's no right or wrong, just what you see and what I see.

Me: I guess that makes sense.

Her: Oh well.

Me: I'm confused. You view it as inconsistent, I can understand why you do. It's just one of those things that we view differently.

What it feels like to me is that you are looking at my actions right now and trying to judge how I would act if we were together. I don't think that's fair because different types of relationships play by different rules.

Her: Right. no problem.

Her: I WILL NOT ARGUE WITH YOU ABOUT THIS.  Do whatever makes you happy and whatever you feel good about.

Me: Thank you for not arguing with me about this.

Her: YW. Have a great day.

Me: You too.

Her: Thanks

Me: YW

Her: I am sorry that the intimacy you shared with her was a problem when we are together. So, hearing that you are there again is simply a reminder of the past and a predictor of the future should there be one.

With that being said, do whatever you please, if that includes [the ow], knock yourself out.
I would appreciate being given my space though. 

Me: I'm happy to give you whatever space you ask for.

I've known [the friend] for almost 20 years now, and I'm not sure what intimacy you are talking about.

Her: The kind that allows her to ask to be "[my daughter’s] stepmom" and to text you at 7 in the morning on a weekend when she knows that we are together.

But, again, do as you see fit.

I'm asking that you not be present on every ride that I make with my friends.

Me: I can see that you're still clearly bothered by that text message. Can you tell me why?

Her: So, a guy texting me while we were in bed would've been ok with you?  A guy that expressed interest in being with me... .

But, no, I am no longer bothered by it or anything else.

Me: I'm not going to answer that. Those questions only lead to fights. I know your feelings on matter, and I'm not going to argue with you about them. You are completely justified in feeling as you have about it.

I stopped talking to her when we were together because I respected those feelings.

Her: Besides that no matter what you would say, I know the answer.

I'm glad you have her now.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm afraid that the pooch looks screwed, and it is gonna be hard to un-screw it with x. Not impossible, but hard.

Here what I see given that dialog and your history:
1. You had an inappropriate friendship with ow while you were with x, not realizing what you were doing and had lots of battles with x over your r/s with ow, and you betrayed x's trust in there.
2. You had similar battles over [friend] despite not doing anything inappropriate with her.
3. You "gave in" on it and promised to cut contact in both cases. (And broke this promise in regard to ow, at least)
4. You resumed contact after breaking up... .but wanted to resume the r/s with x, and did so, without re-cutting contact until you were either busted or ended up on the same group ride with ow, or even your dad did when you weren't.

To really clear the air with x, you need to communicate several things, and it would be difficult even if she didn't have BPD. I think you've done some of them, but not all. Here's my take:

1. You got lured into an inappropriate r/s with ow. You were confused, and blew it badly, and multiple times, in multiple ways. You've figured out that she's a hot mess, and you will stay clear now, and you apologize for the harm done, and how you violated x's trust here. [Yeah, we beat this one into a pulp here!]
1A. You're still trying to figure out how to deal with crap like group motorcycle rides she might show up for. 

2. While you were confused, you agreed to cut [friend] out of your life to appease x. That was a mistake, as you have never had any kind of r/s with her, and haven't done anything inappropriate. You promised her something you never should have promised. An apology for the confusion and backtracking here is appropriate too.

3. You aren't willing to cut important friends out of your life for x, when there is nothing inappropriate going on. You also know that you blew this one big time, and probably still have a bit to learn about how to do it right. Offer to provide extra accommodations to rebuild trust short of cutting contact. Offering x the chance to see your conversations with [friend] or something.

4. Acknowledge that you were playing both sides of the fence in this conversation.
You agreed to cut contact with [friend] when you were in a r/s with x last.
You want to be in a r/s with x again.
Apparently, since you are not YET in a r/s with x, you don't need to cut contact yet?

Uhm, really? Since you aren't yet in a r/s with x again, you could have another girlfriend now while you are trying to get back together with her by the same logic!

For YOU, [friend] and ow are very different relationships, and the right thing for you to do is different.

Unfortunately, you've been really confused about this, and haven't been either consistent or truthful in any of this! That makes it a lot harder for x to trust you at all.

X seems to have similar fears/concerns with both [friend] and ow.

Anyhow... .given the mess I described, If I was in x's shoes, I'd be pissed at you too, and the reassurance that you only talked to [friend] when you were broken up with x wouldn't help me at all, so this conversation was hosed because of what you said, not how you said it starting here... .

Her: I thought you weren't talking to her, the last I heard.  I guess you are again.

Me: I stopped talking to her when you and I were together. I started talking to her again over summer

BTW, are there more female friends that either do or might trigger x?

[Meili]

Geez, almost all of my friends are female!

I am not sure that I've ever actually lied to my x about any of it. I will admit to lies of omission where the ow is concerned.

No, there were no similar battles over my friend. I never responded to the 7:30 text message and I just stopped talking to her for over a year while my x and I were together.

I have done #1, communicated #1A, never agreed to cut the friend out, just did it (#2), #3 I've offered, the x refused stating that "I know how to delete things that I might not want you to see,"

I have a real issue with #4. I could, in fact, have another girl friend if I wanted. My x reminds me all of the time that there is no commitment between us. In fact, she's forever going out with other men. All of the things that she used to define "intimate" are things that have occurred with these other men. I can't feel too guilty.

That being said, I'm allowed to have friends and so is she. As long as what is happening is not inappropriate. The real problem lies in my x expecting me to do all of the things that a person in a committed relationship would do without the commitment and it not being reciprocal.

But, that really isn't the point. The point is that she feels that I've done something inappropriate while trying to reconcile.

It isn't just the friend or the ow. Any woman that I talk to is perceived as a threat. Even if I have friendships, true friendships, with males that's a threat. This board is a threat!

[Grey Kitty]

I have a real issue with #4. I could, in fact, have another girl friend if I wanted. My x reminds me all of the time that there is no commitment between us. In fact, she's forever going out with other men. All of the things that she used to define "intimate" are things that have occurred with these other men. I can't feel too guilty.

Yes, you could have another girlfriend right now, being broken up.

A while ago you said that you did hope to reconcile, and were trying to win her back, even though you thought odds are against it.

I think it is pretty obvious that if you DID have another girlfriend, x wouldn't be reconciling with you! And it doesn't really matter whether she's going out with other guys right now or not--Given BPD, she's likely to have a bit of  a double standard going, and that's the way it works.

But, that really isn't the point. The point is that she feels that I've done something inappropriate while trying to reconcile.

Yes, and how I read your conversation with her, you weren't saying that you stood by your choice to have (female, platonic) friends.

What I read was you saying that it wasn't inappropriate because you did it while not in a r/s with her.

The way you said it in this conversation, it would seem reasonable for her to expect you to cut contact with [friend] if you reconciled.

While it is technically OK for both of you to date now, if you reconciled, it is a very reasonable expectation for it to stop!

It isn't just the friend or the ow. Any woman that I talk to is perceived as a threat. Even if I have friendships, true friendships, with males that's a threat. This board is a threat!

And do you really want to reconcile with somebody who believes this?

[Meili]

A while ago you said that you did hope to reconcile, and were trying to win her back, even though you thought odds are against it.

I think it is pretty obvious that if you DID have another girlfriend, x wouldn't be reconciling with you! And it doesn't really matter whether she's going out with other guys right now or not--Given BPD, she's likely to have a bit of  a double standard going, and that's the way it works.

This is true.

Yes, and how I read your conversation with her, you weren't saying that you stood by your choice to have (female, platonic) friends.

What I read was you saying that it wasn't inappropriate because you did it while not in a r/s with her.

The way you said it in this conversation, it would seem reasonable for her to expect you to cut contact with [friend] if you reconciled.

And, in some cases, it might be reasonable. That is something that would have to be determined at the time.

While it is technically OK for both of you to date now, if you reconciled, it is a very reasonable expectation for it to stop!

Most definitely!

And do you really want to reconcile with somebody who believes this?

She wasn't always this way, and to some extent has every right to believe this right now where other females are concerned. As for the board and male friends, she's been dysregulated since I left her back in April. One thing or another has kept her emotionally aroused. In order for us to reconcile, it will take her emotional arousal to make its way back to neutral (her stated position, not a limitation that I put in place). At that point, I don't believe that the latter two will be an issue.

[icky]

hey meili  : ). i think you're on the right track and i like grey kitty's advice re kinda apologising for all past muddles and sitting down together and stipulating the rules for this stuff in your (potential) relationship. really start with a blank slate and work from there. 1. friendships are okay, both male and female. 2. if a certain friendship seems fishy, it needs to be sorted out. if it is not fishy, then it must be allowed to continue unhampered. if it is fishy, it should be terminated. 3. any past friendships that have already proven themselves to be fishy (ow) are most certainly terminated and will continue to be so. also aplogise for any past muddles b/w you, with friendships that turned out to be inappropriate (ow) and with friendships that were on/ off due to x's insecurities, hence creating a muddled situation. promise her you were doing your best in the past, but can understand why things got confusing. agree to start a wholly new era with her and ask her to measure your behaviour in this new era - not base it on the past when both of you contributed to a muddled dynamic. gently ask her if these rules are to apply to you, whether she could apply these same rules to herself too, please, re her male friendships? explain that that would get the overall level of muddling down and increase the overall level of trust. trust is a really hard thing to fix when broken. it's like dropping a china plate - it's done in a second and takes painstaking hours and hour and hours to reassemble. HOWEVER - that being said - have you heard of that Japanese thing where when something beautiful (like trust) (or a vase!) breaks, they repair/ glue/ kit the break with a seam of gold? it's a way of valuing the break and the repair, instead of seeing it as something negative and something to be hidden. i think it's called "kintsugi" and i loove it. pour pure gold in them breaks, lad!    : ).

[Meili]

THANKS hmmmm!

My x has actually been pretty calm over the past 24 hours. We've spent a lot of time talking about how I see things and why (the role that my FOO played in all of it) I do some of the things that I do without realizing the effects that they will have.

I have always apologized (numerous) times when these things come up.

I would love to be able to start from a blank slate with her. I've tried that approach. It's not something that she can do right now.

I LOVE the comment about pouring gold into the cracks! That's what I'm trying to do when I'm not messing things up by not fully understanding the consequences of my actions.

[Grey Kitty]

hmmm, I like nearly everything you wrote here. (And not just 'cuz you are agreeing with me   )

gently ask her if these rules are to apply to you, whether she could apply these same rules to herself too, please, re her male friendships?

Not this, though. Meili, don't bring this up--in the same conversation--or before you and x seem to be truly on a road to reconciliation.

It goes back to the double standard for BPD-ish relationships... .if you want to get her back, don't do anything you wouldn't do in a faithful r/s with her while you wait, but don't demand (or even discuss) the same of her until after you reconcile.

Besides... .the apology/discussion with her regarding [friend] will be hard enough without adding that!

[icky]

.

gently ask her if these rules are to apply to you, whether she could apply these same rules to herself too, please, re her male friendships?

. Not this, though. Meili, don't bring this up--in the same conversation--or before you and x seem to be truly on a road to reconciliation.

. kay : ). i shall defer to your wisdom re this! you have heeeaps more BPD experience than me, so are probly right!

[Meili]

gently ask her if these rules are to apply to you, whether she could apply these same rules to herself too, please, re her male friendships?

Not this, though. Meili, don't bring this up--in the same conversation--or before you and x seem to be truly on a road to reconciliation.

Right, I have purposefully avoided that part of things.

[icky]

last night, when reading this, i smiled and thought wow, meili and grey kitty are like wizend buddhist monks and have the patience of saints    : )

(i'm starting to learn BPD patience, but still have a bit of a "shape up or ship out stance", haha... .*sigh*)    : P

anyway... .

i *think* in terms of trying to create a "blank slate" situation, which i *think* you should keep aiming for, it could be good to discuss how these rules apply to both people equally

*because*... .your x needs to *feel* that your non-fishy friendships are EXACTLY like her non-fishy friendships.

i think to cut through the jealousy-paranoia loops, that is a very important step

so yeah, i get there's a double standard thing with BPD

but my gut instinct re repairing trust is to aim for a blank slate with very basic, safe rules *that apply to everybody equally*

as i said, if this was mentioned, i would do it very gently

my gut instinct is that with trust that's been damaged, gentle, fair, equal rules for everyone would be the way to go and would make most sense on an inner kid level


but i swear i do not have you guys' buddhist wisdom or patience!   so definitely feel free to ignore! 

[Meili]

Nothing to ignore here hmmmm!

OK, here's the thing, as long as my x is dysregulated, nothing that seems logical and sensible to you will work.

I agree, mutual "rules" and "limits" are healthy and how things should work. That isn't what is at play here though. Your logic makes sense to you, my logic makes sense to me, my x's logic makes sense to her, GK's logic makes sense... .and so one. To each of us, our logic makes sense. That does not mean that it makes sense to another person however.

So, in a healthy healthier relationship, the rules that you state would apply. They can be mutually agreed upon by the parties. In a disordered relationship, that isn't necessarily the case.

At the moment, I am just trying to bring things back to a neutral position.

Think of it like dealing with someone who is drunk and you are trying to get that person not to drive. In that person's mind, he/she is perfectly capable of driving.  The intoxicated stated prevents him/her from understanding the gravity of the situation.

Without reaching a state of neutrality, the non has as little of a chance of reaching a healthy healthier agreement as the sober person does with the drunk who is ready to drive.

[icky]

hehe, kay, even i am buddhist and patient enough to realise that *during dysregulation* it's not a good idea to mention that stuff : )

if/ when this dysregulation phase has calmed down, i think it *can* be useful to do a same-basic-and-fair-rules-for-everyone thing, as it can help to restore trust to *not* have different standards for everyone (even if "different standards" is a typical thing for BPD)

anyway - keep up the good work, meili!  


p.s. i totally understand that "this board" is a threat to your x

my partner would               if he knew i was posting here

*sigh*

[icky]

(in fact, given that he's a pretty bright cookie, and i told him i think he had BPD and that he knows i think that *good* forums are a good place for good advice... .it wouldn't surprise me if he googled "BPD" and "forum" and read my posts here... .)

*sigh*

(only thing i've got working in my favour are denial and lack of self-awarenes, hahahahaha)

does your x ever read here, meili?

is she embarrassed to know you post about her?

(it would be ironic for me, if this forum a) helped save our relationship by teaching me BPD tools and skills and then b) ended our relationship for absolutely EVER when my partner comes across my posts one day - cos he h.a.t.e.s. forums and would view my posting here as a massive, massive violation of trust)   

*sigh*